Pick y'er Warlock!

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:28 am

A quick, fun, pointless poll.

Your GM says: "I need you to play a Warlock tonight."

Which type would you select? And why?

Spoiler:

Riftmaker · Unread post by **Riftmaker** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:35 am

Fire / water since the updated vampire book that water magic is one of the few things that can mess up a vampire.

Their is also an elemental fusinist.

wyrmraker · Unread post by **wyrmraker** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:53 am

It kind of depends on where I'll be playing said warlock, and what level the warlock would be. But my go to combo is Earth/Fire. I do so adore River of Lava.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:06 am

I think it would depend on the scope of the campaign.

Is this Warlock a 1-off, or is it going to be around for a while (intended at least, since its still possible to be killed off early even in a long term). This allows for planing in terms of development, does the Warlock take Spell X as it leads into Spell Y combo later? That type of combo spells isn't something to think about much for a 1-off versus long term. Long term an Air/Earth could create an army of servants w/o the downsides of traditional Golems (or restrictions like Zombie/mummy).

What is the situation or role they are going to be in game. This can help determine spells and skills they would take. Do we need someone to try and bring some firepower (Fire Warlock), or some other role?

What is the Warlock's level starting out. This sort of gets into point 1, but if I have to start the Warlock out at a lower level that can influence what one takes in terms of spells.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:27 pm

wyrmraker wrote:It kind of depends on where I'll be playing said warlock, and what level the warlock would be. But my go to combo is Earth/Fire. I do so adore River of Lava.

Makes a great door mat. :twisted:

Plus there's Chasm and Earthquake. Bring the house down!

Athos · Unread post by **Athos** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:15 pm

I couldn't decide between air and air/water... I like both a lot.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:57 pm

Fire Warlock. They're the underdogs of Warlocks and thus would be a challenge that I'd gladly accept.

Killer Cyborg · Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:00 pm

Water/Air.

Because those seem like the two most useless elements in most cases, and I'd be interested to find some more utility in them.

eliakon · Unread post by **eliakon** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:20 pm

I picked Air/Water. Because I adore utility spells, love healing spells (Breath of Life I am looking at you), and of course I just love the idea of having one of the level 8 spells be...summon rainbow....

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:39 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:Water/Air.

Because those seem like the two most useless elements in most cases, and I'd be interested to find some more utility in them.

air is ridiculously good, actually. probably the strongest type. water and fire are probably the weakest (though in the right situations, water is very strong also. fire is just a sad panda, because it is so damage-focused and yet tends to be worse at damage than air).

for a one-off, i'd go air. lots of utility. good CC. lots of powerful destruction spells. some protection. good summons.

for a long-term character, i'd go earth. less generally powerful than air, but i like to build, and earth warlocks are probably second-best in most categories except for building, where they are first.

Secondhand Smoke · Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:42 pm

Air.
It has the most variety and most usable outside combat as well.

One of the spells is to summon a storm, so vampires are also dealt with

AzathothXy · Unread post by **AzathothXy** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:43 pm

Air/Water , i like lightning and storm related powers.

Subjugator · Unread post by **Subjugator** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:49 pm

I think I'd be pretty good with air. Any of them are good above 8th level though...a major elemental of any stripe is a bad axle.

/Sub

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:10 pm

Subjugator wrote:I think I'd be pretty good with air. Any of them are good above 8th level though...a major elemental of any stripe is a bad axle.

/Sub

major elementals are available (potentially) starting at level 1. no need to limit yourself to level 8.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:16 pm

Shark_Force wrote:
Subjugator wrote:I think I'd be pretty good with air. Any of them are good above 8th level though...a major elemental of any stripe is a bad axle.

/Sub

major elementals are available (potentially) starting at level 1. no need to limit yourself to level 8.

Think we're reading different books. In mine, from levels 1 through 8 a Warlock can only summon a Minor Elemental. Starting at level 9, he can attempt to summon a Major Elemental at half the normal percentage chance.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:01 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:I think it would depend on the scope of the campaign.

Is this Warlock a 1-off, or is it going to be around for a while (intended at least, since its still possible to be killed off early even in a long term). This allows for planing in terms of development, does the Warlock take Spell X as it leads into Spell Y combo later? That type of combo spells isn't something to think about much for a 1-off versus long term. Long term an Air/Earth could create an army of servants w/o the downsides of traditional Golems (or restrictions like Zombie/mummy).

What is the situation or role they are going to be in game. This can help determine spells and skills they would take. Do we need someone to try and bring some firepower (Fire Warlock), or some other role?

What is the Warlock's level starting out. This sort of gets into point 1, but if I have to start the Warlock out at a lower level that can influence what one takes in terms of spells.

I applaud the amount of thought and energy you're applying :ok:

, but that's way more than I intended.

I really just meant "pick y'er favorite."

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:34 pm

I agree with the general consensus that Air/Earth is probably optimal, but that's not what I went with. I chose Air/Fire since it seems like you can't throw a rock without hitting an Earth warlock these days and the advantages of Earth don't really scale. As long as you have one Earth warlock, that's good enough to get most of the advantages of the Earth spell track.

Air, on the other hand, scales decently with the number of Air warlocks.

Fire offers some nifty options that the other elemental tracks don't have good substitutes for, so I decided to pair that with Air.

--flatline

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:00 pm

Earth is kinda weak, but now that Mysteries of Magic was released, there are some good armor spells at lower levels.

Still, I pick Air. Good damage, flight, awesome fragments to summon, Tornados, Hurricanes...

Morik · Unread post by **Morik** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:19 pm

Air/Earth is my favorite.

The best Wall spells from earth and utility from air. You get tornado and river of lava.......just stupid good. Awesome elementals to summon as well.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:32 pm

To be honest, I've never actually played a Warlock. I have played a demi-god with warlock abilities, but since you get all the spells up to your level, I've never had to ponder the spell selections like a true Warlock player would have.

--flatline

Grell · Unread post by **Grell** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:48 pm

I chose an air warlock. I like the spell selections and the spell level assignments.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:40 pm

Air and Earth...storms and earthquakes. Plus Earth has some good plant spells for agriculture(or destruction of). Makes for a well-rounded magical toolkit.

drewkitty ~..~ · Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:42 am

You do know that according to the classical elements water and fire are intrinsically opposed to each other, as are air and earth.

*waves off the reminders that the gamebooks do not say anything about these oppositions cause I already know it and is mentioning it here so you don't have to*

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:55 am

Air/Fire Warlock would just be a super badass character to play. Make him more like a Shugenja than a Wizard, martial arts type with cool sweeping motions, give'm a spear or something they make whirlwinds and stir up fireballs with.

Style points.

Svartalf · Unread post by **Svartalf** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:20 am

Air/fire ... cause that's how I roll... unless your party is a bunch of melee obsessed murder hoboes, then the fire side is of no use, at least offensively.

Alrik Vas · Unread post by **Alrik Vas** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:22 am

what are you talking about? Rivers of lava and walls of fire make great boundaries for the Murder Dome.

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:55 pm

Kagashi wrote:Earth is kinda weak, but now that Mysteries of Magic was released, there are some good armor spells at lower levels.

Still, I pick Air. Good damage, flight, awesome fragments to summon, Tornados, Hurricanes...

earth is actually pretty solid, it's just that it takes time to get going. with earth, you kinda almost need to be pure earth warlock to really benefit (or a being that just gets all spells known, like a demigod). with earth warlock, you're not looking at "what spells are amazing" so much as you are looking at "what spells are amazing when i use them together".

dunno that i'd agree there's a ton of earth warlocks out there, though... i've found air to be the most popular (and with good reason... my personal ranking is that air is the strongest and you probably want to stay pure air warlock because there is no other elemement that has 1 spell which is better than 2 more air spells, then earth, where you want to stay pure earth warlock because you won't realize your full potential unless you can combo your spells, then water and fire, which you can combo with anything else because there's a lot of repetition in their spells... water has about a bajillion ways to reduce visibility and mobility in a huge area, and fire has about a bajillion ways to deal fire damage. they each have some spells that do different things (fire, for example, has an excellent spell to let you see through smoke - which means you can drop a smoke grenade, give your enemy -10 to strike, and you get to attack while being effectively invisible) but there isn't really a huge need to pick up 3 cloud spells every level, or 3 fire damage spells every level...)

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:17 pm

Shark_Force wrote:earth is actually pretty solid, it's just that it takes time to get going. with earth, you kinda almost need to be pure earth warlock to really benefit (or a being that just gets all spells known, like a demigod). with earth warlock, you're not looking at "what spells are amazing" so much as you are looking at "what spells are amazing when i use them together".

What combos do you have in mind?

--flatline

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:55 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You do know that according to the classical elements water and fire are intrinsically opposed to each other, as are air and earth.

*waves of the reminders that the gamebooks do not say anything about these oppositions cause I already know it and is mentioning it here so you don't have to*

So? I'm a manic-depressive; I can love being all things, or I can turn on myself in spectacular fashion.

Mack · Unread post by **Mack** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:18 pm

So at the moment there are 23 votes in the poll, and I didn't expect the overwhelming preference for Air. I know that I've always leaned towards it, but I assumed that was just me.

If you allocate each of the dual-type votes to their respective areas (meaning an Air/Earth generates a 'half' vote for Air, and a 'half' vote for Earth), then here's the current breakdown:

Air 61%
Earth 15%
Fire 17%
Water 7%

Incriptus · Unread post by **Incriptus** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:18 pm

I usually like Earth & Air as those two are my natural habitat.

Secondhand Smoke · Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:20 pm

Alrik Vas wrote:Air/Fire Warlock would just be a super badass character to play. Make him more like a Shugenja than a Wizard, martial arts type with cool sweeping motions, give'm a spear or something they make whirlwinds and stir up fireballs with.

Style points.

This right here!

I made a Demi God Samurai with air warlock powers. The gm allowed me to manufacture some stylistic manoevers, which includes:
Summoning high winds with exaggerated slashing motions (a wind slash attack), an overhead circular motion with the sword to create a hurricane, holding the sword up in the air whilst a bolt of lightning strikes down to connect with the sword. The sword then gains lightning attacks as electricity courses through the blade. Doing a horizontal slash to create a wall of air (invisible wall) and plunging the sword into the ground to do an AoE electric attack that shapes as a sphere.

Good fun.

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:05 pm

flatline wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:earth is actually pretty solid, it's just that it takes time to get going. with earth, you kinda almost need to be pure earth warlock to really benefit (or a being that just gets all spells known, like a demigod). with earth warlock, you're not looking at "what spells are amazing" so much as you are looking at "what spells are amazing when i use them together".

What combos do you have in mind?

--flatline

wall spells are great when you can walk through them and your enemies can't. the various spells to create or transform earth in its various forms can be very versatile and powerful (this depends somewhat on your GM, as certain details are not clearly explained; for example, what shape can summoned materials be in, and if you transform part of an object with one spell and then follow up with a second casting of the same spell, will you get two separate objects, or one whole object of the new material).

you've also got the ability to create wood and the ability to make it MDC (even more ideally, you combine this with carpentry skill). this is more important when you remember that you're able to create seasoned wood, which is generally much more useful than green wood which might be lying around (yes, you *can* build a suit of armour out of green wood... but it isn't a good idea to build a form-fitting suit out of something that is pretty much guaranteed to warp over time). another obvious one is the ability to make a better golem by combining spells, and the same holds true for animated clay creatures if you have the means to cast breath of life (or if your GM rules that other spells can also work and you have access to those other spells).

you can find minerals and use other spells to get to them (dig, soften earth, or even chasm), you can use chasm to get access to an area below ground to dig out a hole that can only be accessed by walking through walls, and of course at high levels when you have spells that create hazardous zones you can use other spells to channel people into an area for those spells or to block them in.

you can also use your abilities to make some friends. any techno-wizard should be falling over themselves to make friends with someone who can detect gems in a large area (also stone mages, but stone mages are much less useful friends than techno-wizards). plus, iirc, they get spells that can improve harvests (and if nothing else, can produce good quality topsoil in any part of the world that is lacking in such).

i suppose i should also add that to get the absolute most out of your abilities, preparation makes a huge difference. given time and PPE, an earth warlock can turn a barren waste into a nigh-impenetrable fortress.

@mack: air is clearly the most powerful. it's not surprising at all that they would be the most popular. they have the best damage, the best CC, strong defense, and excellent utility. if anything, i find it surprising that people like to combine air with anything else..

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:Water/Air.

Because those seem like the two most useless elements in most cases, and I'd be interested to find some more utility in them.

The ironic thing in the palladium system air is probably the most powerful of warlock elements and water has excellent utility and great vs vampires. The weird thing is fire winds up being probably the low man on the totem pole for damage/minions/utility.

Killer Cyborg · Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:39 pm

kaid wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Water/Air.

Because those seem like the two most useless elements in most cases, and I'd be interested to find some more utility in them.

The ironic thing in the palladium system air is probably the most powerful of warlock elements and water has excellent utility and great vs vampires. The weird thing is fire winds up being probably the low man on the totem pole for damage/minions/utility.

Air's good at higher levels.
Water... yeah, it's great against vampires. Or if you're on a boat. Other than that, not so much.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:23 pm

kaid wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Water/Air.

Because those seem like the two most useless elements in most cases, and I'd be interested to find some more utility in them.

The ironic thing in the palladium system air is probably the most powerful of warlock elements and water has excellent utility and great vs vampires. The weird thing is fire winds up being probably the low man on the totem pole for damage/minions/utility.

Fire gets shafted because it's the only element that can't chain-summon elemental fragments since the Flame Friend doesn't seem to have any PPE. If you house rule that the Flame Friend has 100PPE and can cast spells similar to the Phantom, Mud Mound, and Little Ice Monster, then suddenly Fire becomes a real contender contender.

Air has the most useful summon for combat (lvl 5 Phantom: invisible, flying, 100PPE, all air spells lvls 1-4). Air also has some useful utility and offensive spells (Lightblade, Call Lightning).

Earth has the best utility spells if you have a mind for infrastructure. It also has the second best summon (Little Mud Mound).

Water doesn't shine in any particular way, but can do a little bit of everything, even when not near a large body of water (although you can't use a fair portion of the spells if water isn't near). The summon (Little Ice Monster) is lame compared to Earth or Air, but it does allow for chain-summoning (unlimited PPE given enough time) and actually does quite well in combat (350MDC, undamaged by lasers, can cast all level 1 water spells (weak, but still useful)).

--flatline

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:03 pm

air is good at all levels. it's just even more better at high levels. but starting from level 1 there are pretty much always 3 good choices for spells to choose.

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:06 pm

Air is the most self sufficient of the warlock options currently. Good offense and scaling offensive abilities at low level good utility and a really good minion.

Water is terrifying if you are on/near water if you are actually running an underseas or water born adventure water is probably the strongest option its the limitations of needing large bodies of water to do its most devastating powers that keep it in check. It has probably one of the best combat minion pets for the elemental fragments as a damage soaker.

Fire just is kinda meh. It gets good attack powers but air's attack spells tend to be as good or better and its minion is kind of bad as written without house ruling. Its utility is pretty limited as its a pretty offense focused power set and simply fails to do that better than other options.

Earth is mostly utility but if one likes being a magical combat engineer these guys are pretty crazy at that. Also as a fun aside earth warlocks allow for some of the safest campsites you are likely to find short of sleeping inside a robot vehicle as they can make a chamber in the ground and harden it to make a perfectly safe/water tight structure within a few minutes and if any threats are detected close the openings and good luck trying to find them.

Killer Cyborg · Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:43 pm

Shark_Force wrote:air is good at all levels. it's just even more better at high levels. but starting from level 1 there are pretty much always 3 good choices for spells to choose.

Not seeing it.
Level 1, there's Cloud of Clumber, which is kind of broken enough to be a good spell.
Breathe Without Air is good... but pointless if you have EBA.
Level 2, There's Cloak of Darkness. That's okay. And Levitate is good enough.
Level 3, again, nothing really grabs me. Frostblade is good, if you' going to be in melee. Frequency Jamming is also broken enough to be useful.

Meanwhile, Earth has:
Level 1: Chameleon, Rock to Mud, Shatter, Identify Minerals, Identify Plants... there's a lot of handy stuff.
Level 2: Wall of Clay, Wither Plants, Grow Plants, Track... All pretty decent.
Level 3: Animate Plants, Create Mound, Dig, Encase object in Stone, Locate Minerals, and Wall of Stone. All gold, so to speak.

Fire has:
Level 1: Cloud of Smoke, Fire Bolt, Globe of Daylight, Impervious to Fire.
Level 2: Tongue of Flame is really the best. The others are on par with Air spells.
Level 3: Wall of Flame, Fire Gout, and Circle of Flame are all good. The cold spells are also decent, though more limited.

Daniel Stoker · Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:36 pm

Depends, if I go straight earth can I get metal bending too?

Daniel Stoker

Library Ogre · Unread post by **Library Ogre** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:14 pm

Heart.

....what?

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:25 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:air is good at all levels. it's just even more better at high levels. but starting from level 1 there are pretty much always 3 good choices for spells to choose.

Not seeing it.
Level 1, there's Cloud of Clumber, which is kind of broken enough to be a good spell.
Breathe Without Air is good... but pointless if you have EBA.
Level 2, There's Cloak of Darkness. That's okay. And Levitate is good enough.
Level 3, again, nothing really grabs me. Frostblade is good, if you' going to be in melee. Frequency Jamming is also broken enough to be useful.

Meanwhile, Earth has:
Level 1: Chameleon, Rock to Mud, Shatter, Identify Minerals, Identify Plants... there's a lot of handy stuff.
Level 2: Wall of Clay, Wither Plants, Grow Plants, Track... All pretty decent.
Level 3: Animate Plants, Create Mound, Dig, Encase object in Stone, Locate Minerals, and Wall of Stone. All gold, so to speak.

Fire has:
Level 1: Cloud of Smoke, Fire Bolt, Globe of Daylight, Impervious to Fire.
Level 2: Tongue of Flame is really the best. The others are on par with Air spells.
Level 3: Wall of Flame, Fire Gout, and Circle of Flame are all good. The cold spells are also decent, though more limited.

thunderclap is a powerful debuff if you're within range (and doesn't cost a lot to cast), and while breathe without air is situational, it does have uses when you directly benefit from not wearing environmental body armour (and have the ability to detect dangerous air). the EBA spellcasting table is not crippling, but air warlocks don't generally have to worry about it. cloud of steam damages people's SDC through non-environmental body armour, potentially allowing you to aquire undamaged armour. useless against a CS dead boy patrol. useful against a typical dog pack in their non-environmental armour. useful against bandits wearing piecemeal armour salvaged from enemies wearing different suits. useful against many magic users. useful against anyone that might be wearing non-environmental body armour to protect their SDC hide, really. plus, it blinds those same targets for 1d6 melees (and anyone for as long as they're in the cloud). sounds pretty damn useful to me.

howling wind is another inexpensive horror factor spell that must be resisted each melee (with a fairly high save required). mesmerism is a debuff that enemies might not even know is being applied and won't know to leave (and appears to work just fine on people in EBA). orb of cold inflicts damage and a debuff and is probably better than fire bolt. silence is a powerful stealth spell.

darkness inflicts a huge penalty which does not apply to the air warlock. frostblade gives an automatic parry against energy blasts (possibly with full regular bonuses; depends if they count as "special bonuses" or not to your GM) whether you're in melee or not. northern lights gives you an AOE disable, during which time you can do pretty much anything except attack the mesmerized targets (time to buff, run away, make important decisions, use skills without distraction, etc), or more likely time to fight the unaffected people in the area while their friends look at the pretty lights. sheltering force provides a long-lasting defensive shelter which reduces incoming damage and makes it harder to hit people inside. walk the wind is low altitude flight. less valuable than high level flight, much better than no flight. wave of frost can block out many or all of the visual sensors or viewing ports in a fairly large area with no save (there is a "special" listed, but never defined). wind rush is just ridiculous against pretty much anyone in the area, with a very difficult save (which doesn't appear to benefit from bonuses as it specifies a *roll* of 18-20) just to be able to do nothing while it lasts only instead of nothing for the next full melee round as well.

air has lots of amazing low-level spells. it's a bit light on damage early on (it has options, but they're not great), but great spells nonetheless, especially if you were planning on using an energy rifle to fulfill your damage-dealing needs anyways.

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:19 am

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:air is good at all levels. it's just even more better at high levels. but starting from level 1 there are pretty much always 3 good choices for spells to choose.

Not seeing it.
Level 1, there's Cloud of Clumber, which is kind of broken enough to be a good spell.
Breathe Without Air is good... but pointless if you have EBA.
Level 2, There's Cloak of Darkness. That's okay. And Levitate is good enough.
Level 3, again, nothing really grabs me. Frostblade is good, if you' going to be in melee. Frequency Jamming is also broken enough to be useful.

Meanwhile, Earth has:
Level 1: Chameleon, Rock to Mud, Shatter, Identify Minerals, Identify Plants... there's a lot of handy stuff.
Level 2: Wall of Clay, Wither Plants, Grow Plants, Track... All pretty decent.
Level 3: Animate Plants, Create Mound, Dig, Encase object in Stone, Locate Minerals, and Wall of Stone. All gold, so to speak.

Fire has:
Level 1: Cloud of Smoke, Fire Bolt, Globe of Daylight, Impervious to Fire.
Level 2: Tongue of Flame is really the best. The others are on par with Air spells.
Level 3: Wall of Flame, Fire Gout, and Circle of Flame are all good. The cold spells are also decent, though more limited.

One thing that is somewhat interesting is in that list you missed call lightning as a third level air spell. It and fire ball are the first really scaling damage powers for most spell casters and warlocks get them at level 3 so they are single action casts. call lightning winds up having 10 more feet per level range than fireball does and it has the fun ability of it never misses. It cannot be dodged it cannot be saved against and no roll to hit is required. Also the air warlock version unlike standard evocation is usable both indoors and outdoors.

Fire really is only somewhat ahead at level 1 as they get a decent damage spell then but after that air warlocks are comprable or better for offense with orb of cold at level 2 and call lightning at level 3 and then lightning arc at level 4 gives them an incredibly efficient attack spell to use and lightblade for 1d4x10 damage which is doubled vs vampires making them some of the best vamp hunters available.

Its not that fire is bad its just that other than a having access to a level one damage spell they really don't do anything the other elements don't do as well or better.

flatline · Unread post by **flatline** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:39 pm

Dancing Flame (Dancing Fire?) is a particularly interesting spell since the potential damage scales with the square of caster level.

At level 6, 6 dancing flames are created. Each flame gets 2 attacks, and each flame lasts for 6 minutes.
Potential number of attacks = 6 * 2 * 4 * 6 = 288

At level 7, the potential number of attacks = 7 * 2 * 4 * 7 = 392
At level 8, 512.
At 9, 648.
At 10, 800.

The flames take no damage from common weapons, so unless you have cold attacks, water, or fire extinguishers (actually, extinguishers aren't mentioned, but we house ruled that they're equivalent to a bucket of water because we thought it made sense), you have no way to stop them.

If you cast this spell near a target that can't escape (like a building), you can expect to do a ton of damage to it. At level 6, 288 attacks times an expected 3.5MD per attack, will yield 1008MD. Casting it in the middle of a camp would be similarly devastating.

--flatline

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:40 pm

Yup once you start talking about things at level 6-7 warlocks start getting some pretty insane powers as that is when they start opening up their big guns. When you start dropping rivers of lava/earthquakes/tornados/hurricanes warlocks of all stripes at that level range are capable of massive carnage.

They each have their own flavors of holy crap what was that type of aoe doom spells and all are pretty terrifying and more so due to them being pretty inexpensive to cast relatively speaking. Such as for the cost of casting 5 call lightnings you can basically flatten a town using earth quake, tornado/hurricane,river of lava.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:34 pm

Fire Warlocks suffer though compared to the others because of the spell "Impervious to Fire," as well as the number of creatures who have that ability. Fire Warlocks only have a couple of other options and have to be creative to get around such protections and come up on top. None of the other Warlocks are neutered so effectively with just a little preparation.

Killer Cyborg · Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:00 pm

kaid wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:air is good at all levels. it's just even more better at high levels. but starting from level 1 there are pretty much always 3 good choices for spells to choose.

Not seeing it.
Level 1, there's Cloud of Clumber, which is kind of broken enough to be a good spell.
Breathe Without Air is good... but pointless if you have EBA.
Level 2, There's Cloak of Darkness. That's okay. And Levitate is good enough.
Level 3, again, nothing really grabs me. Frostblade is good, if you' going to be in melee. Frequency Jamming is also broken enough to be useful.

Meanwhile, Earth has:
Level 1: Chameleon, Rock to Mud, Shatter, Identify Minerals, Identify Plants... there's a lot of handy stuff.
Level 2: Wall of Clay, Wither Plants, Grow Plants, Track... All pretty decent.
Level 3: Animate Plants, Create Mound, Dig, Encase object in Stone, Locate Minerals, and Wall of Stone. All gold, so to speak.

Fire has:
Level 1: Cloud of Smoke, Fire Bolt, Globe of Daylight, Impervious to Fire.
Level 2: Tongue of Flame is really the best. The others are on par with Air spells.
Level 3: Wall of Flame, Fire Gout, and Circle of Flame are all good. The cold spells are also decent, though more limited.

One thing that is somewhat interesting is in that list you missed call lightning as a third level air spell. It and fire ball are the first really scaling damage powers for most spell casters and warlocks get them at level 3 so they are single action casts. call lightning winds up having 10 more feet per level range than fireball does and it has the fun ability of it never misses. It cannot be dodged it cannot be saved against and no roll to hit is required. Also the air warlock version unlike standard evocation is usable both indoors and outdoors.

I didn't miss it... I just didn't bother with those spells because even a good pistol works better in most situations.
I agree that there are definitely some advantages, but they're not all that impressive, which is why my mages tend to use guns over spells.

Fire really is only somewhat ahead at level 1 as they get a decent damage spell then but after that air warlocks are comprable or better for offense with orb of cold at level 2 and call lightning at level 3 and then lightning arc at level 4 gives them an incredibly efficient attack spell to use and lightblade for 1d4x10 damage which is doubled vs vampires making them some of the best vamp hunters available.

Its not that fire is bad its just that other than a having access to a level one damage spell they really don't do anything the other elements don't do as well or better.

I'm not impressed with Orb of Cold. The damage is only okay, and the penalties aren't significant, IF the target doesn't Save vs. the penalties anyway.
Lightblade IS good... at level 4, which I consider to be entering "medium level" instead of "low level."

I already went over fire, and you should note that not all the spells that I mentioned were damage-dealing.

Killer Cyborg · Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:14 pm

Shark_Force wrote:thunderclap is a powerful debuff if you're within range (and doesn't cost a lot to cast),

I've never seen much point in spending your first attack casting a spell to help your initiative.
The Air Warlock version seems to be better than the standard version, but overall it's still not that great.

and while breathe without air is situational, it does have uses when you directly benefit from not wearing environmental body armour (and have the ability to detect dangerous air). the EBA spellcasting table is not crippling, but air warlocks don't generally have to worry about it.

Mages tend to come with gas masks and air filters automatically, and O2 supplies aren't tough to come by.

cloud of steam damages people's SDC through non-environmental body armour, potentially allowing you to aquire undamaged armour. useless against a CS dead boy patrol. useful against a typical dog pack in their non-environmental armour. useful against bandits wearing piecemeal armour salvaged from enemies wearing different suits. useful against many magic users. useful against anyone that might be wearing non-environmental body armour to protect their SDC hide, really. plus, it blinds those same targets for 1d6 melees (and anyone for as long as they're in the cloud). sounds pretty damn useful to me.

Cloud of steam inflicts 2d6 SDC per melee, for an average of 7 damage.
A first level human character starts off with an average of 19 SDC, plus 13 HP, which means it'd take an average of 5 melee rounds to drop them.
I've rarely had a combat last 5 melee rounds.

howling wind is another inexpensive horror factor spell that must be resisted each melee (with a fairly high save required).

A handy spell for a mage who is traveling solo.
Not so great in a group.
Also, I dislike as a rule any spell that lets a single save negate any and all effects. It's not so bad with group spells, but even then I've had them go wrong at crucial times, because every opponent made their save.
Since Physical Endurance is the factor that gives a bonus to save vs. Magic, and PE bonuses are pretty easy to come by, relying on enemies to fail their Save is usually a bad bet.

mesmerism is a debuff that enemies might not even know is being applied and won't know to leave (and appears to work just fine on people in EBA).

Potentially, yes.
Or they might make their save, and be just fine.

orb of cold inflicts damage and a debuff and is probably better than fire bolt.

3d6 MD and potentially some minor penalties... not impressive.
Give me a flat 4d6 MD any day.
You're comparing a 2nd level spell to a 1st level spell, and I think it still comes out behind.

silence is a powerful stealth spell.

...while screwing with your communication ability, and interferes with your own hearing.

darkness inflicts a huge penalty which does not apply to the air warlock. frostblade gives an automatic parry against energy blasts (possibly with full regular bonuses; depends if they count as "special bonuses" or not to your GM) whether you're in melee or not. northern lights gives you an AOE disable, during which time you can do pretty much anything except attack the mesmerized targets (time to buff, run away, make important decisions, use skills without distraction, etc), or more likely time to fight the unaffected people in the area while their friends look at the pretty lights. sheltering force provides a long-lasting defensive shelter which reduces incoming damage and makes it harder to hit people inside. walk the wind is low altitude flight. less valuable than high level flight, much better than no flight. wave of frost can block out many or all of the visual sensors or viewing ports in a fairly large area with no save (there is a "special" listed, but never defined). wind rush is just ridiculous against pretty much anyone in the area, with a very difficult save (which doesn't appear to benefit from bonuses as it specifies a *roll* of 18-20) just to be able to do nothing while it lasts only instead of nothing for the next full melee round as well.

air has lots of amazing low-level spells. it's a bit light on damage early on (it has options, but they're not great), but great spells nonetheless, especially if you were planning on using an energy rifle to fulfill your damage-dealing needs anyways.[/quote]

Killer Cyborg · Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:19 pm

Glistam wrote:Fire Warlocks suffer though compared to the others because of the spell "Impervious to Fire," as well as the number of creatures who have that ability.

Agreed.

Fire Warlocks only have a couple of other options and have to be creative to get around such protections and come up on top. None of the other Warlocks are neutered so effectively with just a little preparation.

Yup. But none of the other warlocks are as good at raw damage, so it nets out pretty even.

And I'd say that Fire Warlocks have plenty of options other than just heat damage.
Cloud of Smoke, Blinding Flash, Globe of Daylight, Nightvision, Impervious to Fire (in their own right), Stench of Hades, Cloud of Ash, Darkness, Freeze Water, Resist Cold, Swirling Lights, Tongue of Flame, Circle of Cold, Extinguish Fire (and other defensive fire related spells)... it's not a bad list. Comparable to any other class of warlock.

And you have combo options at later levels, like casting See Through Smoke, then dropping Cloud of Smoke on yourself and your enemies at once.

Shark_Force · Unread post by **Shark_Force** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:29 pm

thunder clap causes scaling HF for your enemies in the area. HF costs your enemies an attack. (also, you'll have initiative in the next round, plus it may let you cast the spell then act again immediately after). not bad for 2 PPE.

breathe without air works no matter what shape your face is, works when you've been away from civilization for months, works when your stuff has been taken away, works underwater, etc. (also, actual O2 supplies would be pretty heavy... gas masks don't have oxygen supplies typically, they have air filters).

cloud of steam damages those enemies and blinds them for 1d6 rounds. so they're stuck inside a cloud of steam being boiled alive with no idea which direction to go to escape, no idea what's going on, and if they do come out of the cloud by some stroke of luck instead of stumbling around disoriented, they are still blind and at -10 to strike, parry, and dodge. which should make them very easy to subdue if they do manage to get out.

cloud of steam won't kill them instantly. but it will make them want to surrender very badly, and can be used to whittle an opponent down over multiple encounters (especially since getting away from a bunch of blind people isn't going to be hard). if you have access to other means of damaging SDC through armour, so much the better.

howling wind isn't too hard to make work with a party. you've got silence, remember? (also, it's a save vs HF, not magic. PE does not apply).

your enemies might make their save with mesmerism. and you might completley miss with a laser rifle. that doesn't mean a laser rifle is bad or useless or garbage, it just means it isn't guaranteed success. try again next action if needed; it's 7 PPE and an action, that's all.

Pick y'er Warlock: