Best Special Operations OCC

[Kagashi]

Which one do you like and why?

[kaid]

I am a fan of the loss prevention officers of the NG. They have access to any NG toy as needed on a case by case basis and have good skill set to handle just about any combat role from stealth to driving large robot war machines. In north america they also have the ban hammer option thats great to cow people into assisting you or hindering your opponents of your missions.

[flatline]

Temporal Warriors are my favorite special ops typs OCC. They have good skills and access to regular spell magic and temporal magic.

--flatline

[Kagashi]

Temporal Warriors are my favorite special ops typs OCC. They have good skills and access to regular spell magic and temporal magic.

--flatline

Interesting. Never thought of the T Warrior as a special operations member. Would you allow them to take H2H Commando?

[flatline]

Temporal Warriors are my favorite special ops typs OCC. They have good skills and access to regular spell magic and temporal magic.

--flatline

Interesting. Never thought of the T Warrior as a special operations member. Would you allow them to take H2H Commando?

I'd allow it although, personally, I don't understand the appeal of H2H Commando.

--flatline

[Kagashi]

Auto dodge. Thats why people like it.

[flatline]

Auto dodge. Thats why people like it.

Ah. My house rules have mostly gotten rid of autododge so it's not really on my radar.

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

Paratrooper rocks pretty hard. It's called "Paratrooper" but if you read it, it's SEAL/SpecOps/SpecForces

It's much better represented for the special forces soldier than the actual special forces OOC.

[Warpig]

Paratrooper rocks pretty hard. It's called "Paratrooper" but if you read it, it's SEAL/SpecOps/SpecForces

It's much better represented for the special forces soldier than the actual special forces OOC.

Agreed... As per my other post "dwarven paratrooper" ...it's from a recent book and gets some of the best bonuses.
Other older ones may sound cool but don't have the bonuses to back them, ex: CS Navy SEAL, mercenaries Spec Ops, new navy marine -recon & seal options, CS military specialist...

The paratrooper does it all, and gets essential bonuses which set them apart

[kaid]

Yup the paratrooper is a very solid RUE level special forces operator and pretty generic to work into just about any military/merc force lore wise for your character.

[Richardson]

Cyber-Knight. Massive bonuses, handful of psionics, ability to tale cybernetics, great h2h skill, and they can never be disarmed. Read up on their skill selection and be amazed at the depth of their skills.

[Warpig]

Cyber-Knight. Massive bonuses, handful of psionics, ability to tale cybernetics, great h2h skill, and they can never be disarmed. Read up on their skill selection and be amazed at the depth of their skills.

?

No doubt it's a good OCC, but I'd never consider them Spec Ops...

[flatline]

Cyber-Knight. Massive bonuses, handful of psionics, ability to tale cybernetics, great h2h skill, and they can never be disarmed. Read up on their skill selection and be amazed at the depth of their skills.

?

No doubt it's a good OCC, but I'd never consider them Spec Ops...

They fulfill that role quite well with the proper skill selection.

--flatline

[eliakon]

Cyber-Knight. Massive bonuses, handful of psionics, ability to tale cybernetics, great h2h skill, and they can never be disarmed. Read up on their skill selection and be amazed at the depth of their skills.

?

No doubt it's a good OCC, but I'd never consider them Spec Ops...

I would say they are pretty much the definition of special operations....
Highly trained military force expected to operate autonomously behind enemy lines for extended periods.
Organized to perform both combat and psychological/moral operations
Every one of them has access to top of the line gear

What about them ISN'T Spec Op?

[Morik]

Special Forces OCC in RIFTS Mercs has a huge skill selection (12 other OCC skills), personalized heavy EBA, cybernetic implants and either owns a suit of PA or a ROBOT vehicle. You can make one for almost any mission.

Reaver Assassin OCC in WB 17 is a beast. They can't use PA or robots but they wont need to (doesn't say anything about tanks!). Paired weapons, HTH assassin, +1 attack, Auto dodge, Psionic builds (including Master) or bionics and cyberware. Great starting equipment.

[FrankSerpico]

Which book is the Paratrooper in?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Mercenary Adventures. The small white Splat book.

Has the Cold blooded in there too.

[Kagashi]

Upon further inspection, while the Temporal Warrior is cool and you can tailor skills to be special operations-like, they are really nothing more than standard soldiers whom utilized Temporal Magic. Not really a special operations OCC. Same with the Cyber Knight. His very nature is 180 degrees from a special operations OCC. An amazing OCC to be sure, but he is no special operator.

The Paratrooper certainly hits high on the Special Operations list. The extra attack and the ability to have aimed shots while moving is invaluable.

Special Forces OCCs (both the CS version and the generic Merc version) also have a very unique ability to pick pretty much ANY OCC related skill. Having a guy who can not only go in and do the job quietly, but be able to repair his own armor or fix a cybernetic implant after the fact is pretty handy for somebody who operates behind enemy lines.

[flatline]

Upon further inspection, while the Temporal Warrior is cool and you can tailor skills to be special operations-like, they are really nothing more than standard soldiers whom utilized Temporal Magic. Not really a special operations OCC. Same with the Cyber Knight. His very nature is 180 degrees from a special operations OCC. An amazing OCC to be sure, but he is no special operator.

Let me get this straight, the Temporal Warrior is a soldier with abilities above and beyond regular soldiers which lets him complete mission types beyond the abilities of regular soldiers, but that doesn't qualify him for special operations?

What do you think special operations are?

--flatline

[filo_clarke]

While it isn't from Rifts, if you have access to Robotech: The Masters Saga, the Tactical Corps OCC has the option of dropping its Related skills, and picking up a SECOND MOS. Likewise if you were able to roll "Fast Learner and Jack of All Trades" as your special aptitude, you could then select a THIRD MOS (albeit at no special bonuses). This would mean that you could be a Navy SEAL, with SERE Specialization and RECON training... sounds pretty "special" forces to me!

[Sureshot]

Special Forces OCC in RIFTS Mercs has a huge skill selection (12 other OCC skills), personalized heavy EBA, cybernetic implants and either owns a suit of PA or a ROBOT vehicle. You can make one for almost any mission.

Agreed and seconded. Their are many copies of the same occ in later books. Just with the name changed. A few different skills and equipment differences. Still the best to me imo.

[kaid]

Mercenary Adventures. The small white Splat book.

Has the Cold blooded in there too.

It is a book I had totally overlooked for years but it actually has some really interesting stuff in it for being so tiny and unassuming I got it a couple years ago for a grab bag and I was super happy with it.


For a more magical special forces fighters lemurian guardsmen and serpent hunters are pretty amazing.

[Secondhand Smoke]

Naut'yll Devastators. Special forces skills and magic occ of choice

[Crow Splat]

Gunfighter is a good "door kicker" class if you want a more "Black Hawk Down" feel.

I really like the CS Special Forces if you have a group playing as a squad. They all pick different MOS and throw in an EOD Specialist and you've got a solid group.

Commando is another "Door Kicker" I like for things like a SWAT or HRT type of group.

[eliakon]

Upon further inspection, while the Temporal Warrior is cool and you can tailor skills to be special operations-like, they are really nothing more than standard soldiers whom utilized Temporal Magic. Not really a special operations OCC. Same with the Cyber Knight. His very nature is 180 degrees from a special operations OCC. An amazing OCC to be sure, but he is no special operator.

Let me get this straight, the Temporal Warrior is a soldier with abilities above and beyond regular soldiers which lets him complete mission types beyond the abilities of regular soldiers, but that doesn't qualify him for special operations?

What do you think special operations are?

--flatline

Combined with my explanation of the Cyberknight....
I am curios as to what your definition of "special operations OCC" is?

[Kagashi]

CKs don't focus on espionage, counter-insurgency, and asymmetric warfare. They focus on combating evil. Powerful, yes, but not the focus of the OCC (which special operations isnt gauged in terms of power anyway, but in focus). They are more like Jedi, roaming the country side, righting wrongs. Not exactly conducting outside the wire operations rooting out terrorist cells. Cause if they did, it would say so in the OCC description. But it doesnt. It talks about a cadre of knights defeating evils. Just as a Vagabond who wanders he country side, writing wrongs doesnt make him a CK...even if the vagabond gets cyber armor and has some psionic powers.

Likewise, TWs are just dudes with some combat skills and utilize a rare magic. They do the bidding of their Temporal Raider masters and are generally just evil who takes what they want.

Could either conduct special operations? Sure, they could. Do they have skills which could be utilized during operations? Yes, they do. But the OCCs themselves are not Special Operations OCCs. It is not their focus. Both DO work behind the "enemy" lines and *can* be fairly autonomous, but thats not all that makes up spec ops.

[Nox Equites]

Flatline was pointing out how well CKs fit the bill.

Any spell caster with access to teleportation, invisibility and specialty damage spells can serve well in Special Operations.

[Sureshot]

True. But then it's not really a OCC. Just a mage who specializes in Special Operations. So while they maybe good at it. Strictly by the rules not really a OCC imo.

[Nox Equites]

Special operations runs the gamut from low intensity warfare, hot LZ assaults, recon, and waiting for a week in the tall grass to kill a key military leader. Different character builds excel at each of those activities. Few people can do all of them well. A surgical strike needs vastly different skill set and equipment than recon.

[Crow Splat]

True. But then it's not really a OCC. Just a mage who specializes in Special Operations. So while they maybe good at it. Strictly by the rules not really a OCC imo.

This argument seems to be being used by some in this thread to arbitrarily disqualify OCCs that they don't like. Not directing this at you Sureshot but you paraphrased it so nicely, hence the quote.

Special Operations is such a broad term that nearly any OCC can fit into it with the right skill selection. If OP wants to exclude certain OCCs then perhaps they should have made a poll or given a list to choose from.

[Pepsi Jedi]

From context I'd say that perhaps the question was meant to be "non magical" sort of OCC. A Special Operations guy with out any magic or super psionic class.

Do CK's make good operatives. They 'can' sure, but I don't think that's what is being looked for here. I think they're looking for a spec-ops from a military.

Nor do I think they're looking for evil guys that worked for other evil guys for decades murdering raping and killing in their teachers name before they even reach lvl 1, and then learn ultra ultra rare magics, type thing.

[eliakon]

CKs don't focus on espionage, counter-insurgency, and asymmetric warfare. They focus on combating evil. Powerful, yes, but not the focus of the OCC (which special operations isnt gauged in terms of power anyway, but in focus). They are more like Jedi, roaming the country side, righting wrongs. Not exactly conducting outside the wire operations rooting out terrorist cells. Cause if they did, it would say so in the OCC description. But it doesnt. It talks about a cadre of knights defeating evils. Just as a Vagabond who wanders he country side, writing wrongs doesnt make him a CK...even if the vagabond gets cyber armor and has some psionic powers.

Likewise, TWs are just dudes with some combat skills and utilize a rare magic. They do the bidding of their Temporal Raider masters and are generally just evil who takes what they want.

Could either conduct special operations? Sure, they could. Do they have skills which could be utilized during operations? Yes, they do. But the OCCs themselves are not Special Operations OCCs. It is not their focus. Both DO work behind the "enemy" lines and *can* be fairly autonomous, but thats not all that makes up spec ops.

By this logic even such combat-centric man-at-arms classes as the Gunslinger would not be a 'special ops' person
In fact by this logic the PARATROOPER isn't a 'special ops' person
By this logic in fact even classes like the CS Ranger or Seal fail since they don't have the full gamut of skills to do everything asked of them.

[flatline]

Nor do I think they're looking for evil guys that worked for other evil guys for decades murdering raping and killing in their teachers name before they even reach lvl 1, and then learn ultra ultra rare magics, type thing.

Hmm...with training like that, it's curious they're allowed to have good alignments.

Perhaps there is significant variation in the level of evil depending on the master. After all, Temporal Raiders aren't all evil.

--flatline

[eliakon]

Nor do I think they're looking for evil guys that worked for other evil guys for decades murdering raping and killing in their teachers name before they even reach lvl 1, and then learn ultra ultra rare magics, type thing.

Hmm...with training like that, it's curious they're allowed to have good alignments.

Perhaps there is significant variation in the level of evil depending on the master. After all, Temporal Raiders aren't all evil.

--flatline

That's because there isn't such a requirement.
in fact the only ones that serve for 'decades' would be level 5+ And their duties have nothing in them that say anything about rape. Murder can be assumed, as can theft, but I don't see anything about rape. <edited>

[Pepsi Jedi]

Eh, 6 to 14. I was speaking in generalities. I don't play the the twinky stuff myself. I only open the book to that part when people get fussy I point out that by and large they're evil and rare. 6 years minimum, with two four year extensions possible. Says it's likely to involve treachery, deception, theft and murder, leading to many deadly battles before the master deems the servant worthy.

People skip past the flavor text and just look at lists of cool powerz though. While there are not alignment restrictions in text, the aspect of being treacherous, deceptive, a thief, and murderer locks um down in the Evil alignments pretty easily. (In Palladium's system. Which is very very black and white on some things. Most of the alignments have "Would never ______" a number of times and the 'good' and even selfish alignments tend to be broken by something on that list.)

That said the alignment system is very seldom held tightly and depending on the writer, or book, seems to be forgotten entirely at some, if not many points in the 50+ books for Rifts.

The point remains though. I don't think the OP meant ultra rare mages that likely had to serve for years as murderous suck boys to their masters, prior to becoming lvl 1 in their rare form of magic. I think the OP was asking about boot on the ground military OCCs, that a standard non powered (magic or psionic) Human could take.

But I could be wrong.

[Morik]

Naut'yll Devastators. Special forces skills and magic occ of choice

You cheeky bast*rd....getting all into a class that's from a highly militaristic and magical race....that can operate amphibiously very easily. Good show. We got a winner Check them out in RIFTS Underseas.

The only drawback is you basically have to be a ugly squid faced Naut'yll.

[eliakon]

Eh, 6 to 14. I was speaking in generalities. I don't play the the twinky stuff myself. I only open the book to that part when people get fussy I point out that by and large they're evil and rare. 6 years minimum, with two four year extensions possible. Says it's likely to involve treachery, deception, theft and murder, leading to many deadly battles before the master deems the servant worthy.

People skip past the flavor text and just look at lists of cool powerz though. While there are not alignment restrictions in text, the aspect of being treacherous, deceptive, a thief, and murderer locks um down in the Evil alignments pretty easily. (In Palladium's system. Which is very very black and white on some things. Most of the alignments have "Would never ______" a number of times and the 'good' and even selfish alignments tend to be broken by something on that list.)

That said the alignment system is very seldom held tightly and depending on the writer, or book, seems to be forgotten entirely at some, if not many points in the 50+ books for Rifts.

The point remains though. I don't think the OP meant ultra rare mages that likely had to serve for years as murderous suck boys to their masters, prior to becoming lvl 1 in their rare form of magic. I think the OP was asking about boot on the ground military OCCs, that a standard non powered (magic or psionic) Human could take.

But I could be wrong.

Hooo boy where to start?
-Considering that Temporal magic is taught at at least two different magical universities
-It says 'likely to" not "must"
-How much time is being assumed to be invested in the training of the OTHER occs? (if six years is being held up as an unreasonably long time to train)
-As for ultra rare mages.....I would hardly count something that is that widely taught as 'ultra rare' now a Battle Magus? Yah that's ultra rare. Its not a common magic by any means, but is hardly 'ultra rare'

Now if we are saying that "special forces by definition excludes any magic, any psionics, must be human, and must have a specific skill set" then yah we can easily exclude all the other special forces types that don't fit that (Cybernights, ninjas, Temporal Warriors, Super Spies, and all the other highly trained combat specialists that use magic/psionics/ect in their craft)....

This sets aside the uncalled for and derogatory insinuation that people who play Temporal Warriors are looking for 'twinkie stuff' and that they 'ignore the flavor text to get to the cool powerz"
I would say that just by definition when your looking for special forces troops that you are already into 'twinkie' land. And ummmm if we don't care about the abilities of the class, lets just go with "special forces OCC" it must be the winner right? ITs got the name and everything? Or are the powers, skills, abilities, bonuses, ect only to be considered for some classes and not others? How do we know what classes are worthy to be considered?

[Kagashi]

A bit of clarification; I am building a Vernulian squad, so Im not interested in magic, nor racially specific classes. However, I intentionally left that info out because I was indeed curious as to what other people thought special operations even was.

Apparently to most, it just means they have to be bigger and badder than the average soldier, rather than focusing in on "sabotage, reconnaissance, subversive and other special operations on the territory of foreign countries...intelligence-gathering, the seizure or destruction of key installations, the conduct of psychological operations or the organization of insurgencies in the enemy’s rear area." as an example from The NATO-Russia Glossary of Contemporary Political and Military Terms.

True. But then it's not really a OCC. Just a mage who specializes in Special Operations. So while they maybe good at it. Strictly by the rules not really a OCC imo.

IMO, correct. I believe that to be the intent of PB as well.

Special Operations is such a broad term that nearly any OCC can fit into it with the right skill selection. If OP wants to exclude certain OCCs then perhaps they should have made a poll or given a list to choose from.

Incorrect. I asked for Special Operations OCCs.

Vagabonds can blend into the local population, doesnt make them special operations OCCs. A CS Grunt can kick in a door, doesnt make him a special operations OCC. A Gunslinger can take the Sniper skill, doesnt make him a special operations OCC. A Temporal Wizard can create a pocket dimension and sneak attack at a certain time, doesnt make him a special operations OCC.

Even if I did a poll, the posters would still put TW and CKs as "other" in the narrative, complain that they were not included by the "OP", and the discussion would have still happened.

From context I'd say that perhaps the question was meant to be "non magical" sort of OCC. A Special Operations guy with out any magic or super psionic class.

Sorta. The Super Spy in Rifts Mercenaries, like the Freelance Spy, deals in espionage which is a field of special operations, and Super Spies can wield magic. It's not about not being magic, its about if the OCC is specifically designed with special operations in mind.

There just arnt many OCCs that are magical that are written that way. Magic and psionics would make great tools in special operations because of their "unlimited" power (just go to sleep, and you "reload") and unique abilities. But when Palladium puts a magical OCC together, they seems to be stuck in the traditional "wizard" role. Occasionally, you get Battle Magi, Mystic Knights, Temporal Warriors, or Combat Mages which are all classes designed to take magic and focus on combat, but none are specifically designed for special operations, they just end up being classes with H2H Expert or better, a few WPs, access to military skills and given a restrictive list of spells to pick from. In effect, they are just muscle who wields magic. Not specifically special operators.

Sounds like a great future Rifter contribution to me; 'Lazlo Commando Mystic' or something like that. Instead of focusing on lores, languages, and knowledge, these mystics specialize as highly trained operatives that blend into the population, gather information, and occasionally "adjust" the natural course of history in Lazlo's favor and are never given credit for their actions because to the population, they do not exist. Lazlo's secret army. There. I just created an non-canonical magical Special Ops OCC. Too bad its not canon and does not really exist.

In fact by this logic the PARATROOPER isn't a 'special ops' person.
By this logic in fact even classes like the CS Ranger or Seal fail since they don't have the full gamut of skills to do everything asked of them.

Incorrect, Paratroopers specifically say they are Spec Ops OCCs. Likewise for a Ranger or a SEAL.

An individual operator does not have to have every skill. They work within a team, but that team is small in scope compared to conventional forces and highly specialized to accomplish the mission.

[eliakon]

A bit of clarification; I am building a Vernulian squad, so Im not interested in magic, nor racially specific classes. However, I intentionally left that info out because I was indeed curious as to what other people thought special operations even was.

Apparently to most, it just means they have to be bigger and badder than the average soldier, rather than focusing in on "sabotage, reconnaissance, subversive and other special operations on the territory of foreign countries...intelligence-gathering, the seizure or destruction of key installations, the conduct of psychological operations or the organization of insurgencies in the enemy’s rear area." as an example from The NATO-Russia Glossary of Contemporary Political and Military Terms.

If your going to use that definition
AND if your going to also say that you are explicitly NOT interested in combat bonuses
AND you do NOT want psionics, magic, super powers, or races....
then why don't you say so?
Because what you asked there is, not what you asked before. (for the record for example a Cyber Knight is likely to fit most of those definitions, while a paratrooper or ranger can not)

True. But then it's not really a OCC. Just a mage who specializes in Special Operations. So while they maybe good at it. Strictly by the rules not really a OCC imo.

IMO, correct. I believe that to be the intent of PB as well.

Special Operations is such a broad term that nearly any OCC can fit into it with the right skill selection. If OP wants to exclude certain OCCs then perhaps they should have made a poll or given a list to choose from.

Incorrect. I asked for Special Operations OCCs.

There Isn't a "Special Operations OCCs" category though. So its back to "what sorts of military type OCCs have recived training that puts them beyond the normal training and into the Special Operations category"

Vagabonds can blend into the local population, doesnt make them special operations OCCs. A CS Grunt can kick in a door, doesnt make him a special operations OCC. A Gunslinger can take the Sniper skill, doesnt make him a special operations OCC. A Temporal Wizard can create a pocket dimension and sneak attack at a certain time, doesnt make him a special operations OCC.

And a paratrooper can parachute behind enemy lines, doesn't make him a special operations OCC.....
By this logic there are NO special operations OCCs, since even a special operations OCC would just have "can do x and then y some times and that doesn't make him a special operations OCC"

Even if I did a poll, the posters would still put TW and CKs as "other" in the narrative, complain that they were not included by the "OP", and the discussion would have still happened.

That's the point of discussions. TO talk about things.
I find it more instructive to see what people suggest, and why. Or even what people use to argue against things than (when its just more than a "no your just wrong")

From context I'd say that perhaps the question was meant to be "non magical" sort of OCC. A Special Operations guy with out any magic or super psionic class.

Sorta. The Super Spy in Rifts Mercenaries, like the Freelance Spy, deals in espionage which is a field of special operations, and Super Spies can wield magic. It's not about not being magic, its about if the OCC is specifically designed with special operations in mind.

I think that your definition of special operations here is not matching the rest of the game then because...

There just arnt many OCCs that are magical that are written that way. Magic and psionics would make great tools in special operations because of their "unlimited" power (just go to sleep, and you "reload") and unique abilities. But when Palladium puts a magical OCC together, they seems to be stuck in the traditional "wizard" role. Occasionally, you get Battle Magi, Mystic Knights, Temporal Warriors, or Combat Mages which are all classes designed to take magic and focus on combat, but none are specifically designed for special operations, they just end up being classes with H2H Expert or better, a few WPs, access to military skills and given a restrictive list of spells to pick from. In effect, they are just muscle who wields magic. Not specifically special operators.

This argument is the same one that goes against the COMBAT classes.
Virtually every 'special forces' combat OCC is just muscle that has more weapons skills.
Where are the mandatory languages? Howmany of them can take anthropology to understand the local culture? Or psychology?
They are just muscle who gets More Guns.
But some how they get a pass...but the people with equivilant training AND magic/psi/super powers don't?
Its a double standard

Sounds like a great future Rifter contribution to me; 'Lazlo Commando Mystic' or something like that. Instead of focusing on lores, languages, and knowledge, these mystics specialize as highly trained operatives that blend into the population, gather information, and occasionally "adjust" the natural course of history in Lazlo's favor and are never given credit for their actions because to the population, they do not exist. Lazlo's secret army. There. I just created an non-canonical magical Special Ops OCC. Too bad its not canon and does not really exist.

This guy would then be one of the few ACTUAL special forces OCCs in the books (counting the rifters)

In fact by this logic the PARATROOPER isn't a 'special ops' person.
By this logic in fact even classes like the CS Ranger or Seal fail since they don't have the full gamut of skills to do everything asked of them.

Incorrect, Paratroopers specifically say they are Spec Ops OCCs. Likewise for a Ranger or a SEAL.

An individual operator does not have to have every skill. They work within a team, but that team is small in scope compared to conventional forces and highly specialized to accomplish the mission.

*flag on the play double standard*
WAIT. SO THESE guys get a pass because, even though they don't have all the skills they are 'special forces'
But another character, who is ALSO from a highly trained military background, who has recived years of highly specialized military training in unconventional warfare, small unit tactics, and has an equally wide range of skills doesn't because......oh wait, because they don't have a 'fluff tag' that says they are 'special ops'
Your not asking for a real special ops character with that, your just asking "what classes say that they are special forces"
The Combat mage is disqualified, even though his blurb mentions "...special operations" and goes on to list a number of them that they are used for
Most amusingly the definition you gave at the start of a special forces?
The skills for that?....most of them are forbidden to Paratroopers, Rangers, Seals, and Special Forces people.

[Kagashi]

You are just mad that CKs are not special operations.

[Kagashi]

If your going to use that definition
AND if your going to also say that you are explicitly NOT interested in combat bonuses

Never said that. Just pointed out that most people think of the movie Commando or Rambo if you say "special operations". There are plenty of big, huge dudes whom are NOT special operators. Likewise, there are plenty of dudes whom are not the biggest guys in the world, but are highly specialized in training to deal with the above issues. Certainly, the nature of operators tend to attract/create bigger guys, but thats not a prerequisite

AND you do NOT want psionics, magic, super powers, or races....

Never said that either. Just pointing out that TWs are nothing more then TR enforcers and CKs are peace keepers. Their OCCs descriptions are clear thats why they exist.

then why don't you say so?

I did. I said Special Operations OCCs. Not OCCs that could be, with some tailoring, OCCs that could pass as Special Operators.

Obviously, not everybody agrees on what OCCs would fall under Special Operations OCCs. Hence, the clarification.

Because what you asked there is, not what you asked before. (for the record for example a Cyber Knight is likely to fit most of those definitions, while a paratrooper or ranger can not)

A CK most certainly is not a special operator. They are champions of justice and quellers of evil. You should prolly read their description. Meanwhile, Paratroopers and Rangers do fall in the scope of special ops. Paratroopers even mention Rangers and SEALs in their OCC description. They are obviously intended to be a Special Operations OCC.

And a paratrooper can parachute behind enemy lines, doesn't make him a special operations OCC.....

Except the OCC says they are and operating behind enemy lines is exactly what special operators do.

By this logic there are NO special operations OCCs, since even a special operations OCC would just have "can do x and then y some times and that doesn't make him a special operations OCC"

Like I said before, any one singer operator does not have to be a master of all. Not sure why you are hung up on this mythical requirement to be able to do everything.

That's the point of discussions. TO talk about things.
I find it more instructive to see what people suggest, and why. Or even what people use to argue against things than (when its just more than a "no your just wrong")

Agreed. Hence why no poll.

I think that your definition of special operations here is not matching the rest of the game then because...

There just arnt many OCCs that are magical that are written that way. Magic and psionics would make great tools in special operations because of their "unlimited" power (just go to sleep, and you "reload") and unique abilities. But when Palladium puts a magical OCC together, they seems to be stuck in the traditional "wizard" role. Occasionally, you get Battle Magi, Mystic Knights, Temporal Warriors, or Combat Mages which are all classes designed to take magic and focus on combat, but none are specifically designed for special operations, they just end up being classes with H2H Expert or better, a few WPs, access to military skills and given a restrictive list of spells to pick from. In effect, they are just muscle who wields magic. Not specifically special operators.

The point is, Palladium simply has not written any Special Operations magical classes. (save for the Combat Mage which you point out later).

This argument is the same one that goes against the COMBAT classes.
Virtually every 'special forces' combat OCC is just muscle that has more weapons skills.
Where are the mandatory languages? Howmany of them can take anthropology to understand the local culture? Or psychology?
They are just muscle who gets More Guns.
But some how they get a pass...but the people with equivilant training AND magic/psi/super powers don't?
Its a double standard

Not really, just points out just how little Palladium knows of special operation. But Rangers, Special Forces, Commandos, Military Specialists, and Spies ARE intended to fall in that category.

This guy would then be one of the few ACTUAL special forces OCCs in the books (counting the rifters)

Along with Commandos, Military Specialist, Special Forces, Paratroopers, Rangers, and a host of others.

*flag on the play double standard*
WAIT. SO THESE guys get a pass because, even though they don't have all the skills they are 'special forces'
But another character, who is ALSO from a highly trained military background, who has recived years of highly specialized military training in unconventional warfare, small unit tactics, and has an equally wide range of skills doesn't because......oh wait, because they don't have a 'fluff tag' that says they are 'special ops'
Your not asking for a real special ops character with that, your just asking "what classes say that they are special forces"
The Combat mage is disqualified, even though his blurb mentions "...special operations" and goes on to list a number of them that they are used for
Most amusingly the definition you gave at the start of a special forces?
The skills for that?....most of them are forbidden to Paratroopers, Rangers, Seals, and Special Forces people.

[/quote]

You should really read OCC descriptions. By your logic, Ive picked up a baseball bat before and hit a home run, I must be the same as a Major League baseball player.

That being said, good point on the Combat Mage mentioning Special Ops. He qualifies as his OCC is intended for such. Although the rest of the description describes that he really is nothing more than a magical grunt most of the time.

[eliakon]

... CKs are peace keepers. Their OCCs descriptions are clear thats why they exist.


A CK most certainly is not a special operator. They are champions of justice and quellers of evil. You should prolly read their description.

Have you actually read their book?
Really read it?
They are a (para)military organization, with a full chain of command. They are trained to fight long term fights, they do so asymmetrically, they are explicitly supposed to win hearts and minds, train the people they meet to fight their oppressors, to gather intelligence on foes and pass that along.....they are quite literally a text book special forces organization.

This isn't mean as an insult, its meant to point out the fact that with out a clear definition of what it means to be a 'special forces' then any argument on it is probably circular because most of the arguments here start with "special forces are what I think they are" followed by "therefore only things I think are special forces are special forces"

A Temporal Warrior might be a special forces....or he might not be. Just like a Paratrooper might be a special forces solder, or he might not be.
If the Paratrooper is filling the role of a general para-infantry(light) then there is no WAY to justify a claim that they are special forces, OCC or no. If that paratrooper is skilled up to be on a spec-ops team, and they are filling the role of a spec-ops team then yes, obviously its a special forces. Same with the Temporal Warrior (or many other borderline classes).
I would there fore posit this definition.
A soldier class can be considered special forces if
1) They are trained by/for primarily military use
2) Their training goes above and beyond the normal training of the conventional soldier that they would work with
3) They are intended to be used in non-standard roles (i.e. are not regular infantry, regular armor, etc.)
4) Their training allows them access to skill categories such as wilderness, technical, science, espionage, rouge, and military (I would say they would need at least half those)
IF a class meets all four of these criteria then I would agree that it is a special forces.

[Athos]

Why argue with someone that wouldn't recognize a spec ops guy if he got kicked in the gut by one?

Cyberknight, Temporal Warrior, and I think CS Mil Spec (can you say partial conversion borg? ) are all great spec ops classes. Course I only worked with special forces, rangers, delta and lrs soldiers for 4 years of the 8 I served in the US Army, so what the hell do I know. IMO, what made these guys great was two things, they were highly trained and they were highly motivated. If you take someone that has skills, (obviously not magical, psychic or cybernetic in today's military) and you give that guy a mission that he would rather die than fail at, you have a special soldier. The guys I served with would gladly use any weapon or skill if it would accomplish the mission, I don't think if psionics, magic, or cybernetics existed that they would pooh-pooh them just because they are "outside the box". After all, some of these guys invented thinking "outside the box". My recommendation to the OP is broaden your thinking.

Warning: Insulting language. ~Mack

[Kagashi]

Why argue with someone that wouldn't recognize a spec ops guy if he got kicked in the gut by one?

Cyberknight, Temporal Warrior, and I think CS Mil Spec (can you say partial conversion borg? ) are all great spec ops classes. Course I only worked with special forces, rangers, delta and lrs soldiers for 4 years of the 8 I served in the US Army, so what the hell do I know.

Punctuation, for one.

IMO, what made these guys great was two things, they were highly trained and they were highly motivated. If you take someone that has skills, (obviously not magical, psychic or cybernetic in today's military) and you give that guy a mission that he would rather die than fail at, you have a special soldier. The guys I served with would gladly use any weapon or skill if it would accomplish the mission, I don't think if psionics, magic, or cybernetics existed that they would pooh-pooh them just because they are "outside the box". After all, some of these guys invented thinking "outside the box". My recommendation to the OP is broaden your thinking.

Where are you guys coming up with where I said no magic, psionics, cybernetics and so forth? I'm asking for canon Palladium Spec Ops OCCs. You are putting words in my mouth.

The Military Specialist, which I have mentioned many times, if you bothered to read my posts, is one such OCC. Oh, BTW, he has cybernetics...he also flies RPAs...he could also have psionics...

However, while the TW might exhibit some of the required skills and such, he serves a Temporal Raider master and...oh never mind, I'm not repeating myself. Just scroll up and actually read my posts.

Have you actually read their book?
Really read it?

Nope. I picked it up with books 5 and 6 at the same time, read how the CS won and basically filed them away to collect dust after flipping through the book, taking notes of where the OCC stats were and noting there were a bunch of pages of different armors in the back. The majority of my CK knowledge comes from RUE, which doesn't describe the organization you describe at all, rather the roaming judge, jury, and executioners of evil while righting wrongs as I described previously. In fairness, RUE does reference the SOT CK book though. I'll take a look.

Warning: Issued for insulting other posters. "Punctuation, for one." ~Mack

[Kagashi]

Just like a Paratrooper might be a special forces solder, or he might not be.

The Paratrooper mentioned by myself and others is an actual OCC. Not just some dude who has access to the Military Skill category and happened to pick up the Parachuting skill, which it sounds like you might be referencing (in that case, yes I agree). The Paratrooper OCC is listed on page 30 of Rifts Merc Adventurers. It quite literally likens them to 20th century Airborne, SEALs , Rangers, and Marines.

[Subjugator]

CS Military Specialist in common use.

Outside of common use, I'd recommend not *ever* missing with Northern Gun. The head of their legal department will get *evil* on you.

/Sub

[Morik]

When did this tread become a urination contest?

Personal definitions of what a class is considered is....well personal and basically an opinion.

In RIFTS you got Men-at-Arms, Psychic (master), Magic, and Scholar/Adventurer OCCs. Then the RCCs. You can try to group them by more specific terms, but any grouping you do is not canon. I could say Shaper is my favorite entertainment RCC, but should that really mean anything besides what it says?

Guys we all know the Cyber knights are really a secret society invasion. Cyber armor takes over the host body at level 15 and they become smex bots for the Republicans.

[eliakon]

When did this tread become a urination contest?

Personal definitions of what a class is considered is....well personal and basically an opinion.

In RIFTS you got Men-at-Arms, Psychic (master), Magic, and Scholar/Adventurer OCCs. Then the RCCs. You can try to group them by more specific terms, but any grouping you do is not canon. I could say Shaper is my favorite entertainment RCC, but should that really mean anything besides what it says?

Guys we all know the Cyber knights are really a secret society invasion. Cyber armor takes over the host body at level 15 and they become smex bots for the Republicans.

SHHHHH your not supposed to TELL THEM!!!!

[Blue_Lion]

Best official one for me is the SF in rifts Mercs.

Non-official would be the TW commando Or Special Rifts Operational Specialist (shifter SF) I made when working military trained mages I been testing and tweaking. I do not see standing armies that train their own troops for normal forces as taking any mage off the street without going through military training same as they would there RPAs and infantry troops.(So either they take budding mages that just finished there core of there mage training of potently mages trained through a ROTC style program) So I have been working on military mage classes but trying not to make them feel that they are over whelming powerful. Line troops should be mages in line with main book mages and or Merc classes in the main book while special forces should be in line with special forces not the high power mages in FoM.

[cosmicfish]

CKs don't focus on espionage, counter-insurgency, and asymmetric warfare.

These are distinct special operations missions requiring different skill sets and often different troops. "Special operations" just defines unconventional military operations, which encompasses a wide variety of tactics, tools, and training - there is no requirement that they operate behind enemy lines (a concept that does not have any validity in many combat operations anyway) or perform counter-terrorism operations or anything of that nature. When you really come down to, there are so many variations in "conventional" depending on which force you are discussing in Rifts that defining Special Ops gets pretty thorny - the Coalition would probably consider all of their psychic troops to be "special ops", but for Atlantis that is, well, just how they roll!

Perhaps a more useful definition of special operations her would be "a military unit (and its members) which uses special tactics, tools, and training to either (a) combat an opponent that would be considered more powerful in head-to-head warfare, or to (b) accomplish a mission that would have a low probability of success when attempted by standard units of the same military."

It is worthwhile noting that the term "special ops" is only valid within the context of a military, but it should also be noted that Rifts militaries include a great many "non-military" OCC's and RCC's. Indeed, many "special ops" units in Rifts would be defined by their inclusion of conventionally non-military OCC's.

They focus on combating evil. Powerful, yes, but not the focus of the OCC (which special operations isnt gauged in terms of power anyway, but in focus). They are more like Jedi, roaming the country side, righting wrongs. Not exactly conducting outside the wire operations rooting out terrorist cells. Cause if they did, it would say so in the OCC description. But it doesnt. It talks about a cadre of knights defeating evils. Just as a Vagabond who wanders he country side, writing wrongs doesnt make him a CK...even if the vagabond gets cyber armor and has some psionic powers.

It depends entirely if you consider his actions to be "military" or not. If he is military (as many are), then he would probably fall into the category of special operations - you would be unlikely to find a military where a cyber-knight represents an "ordinary" method of combat!