Gen Con Indy – we leave it up to our Kickstarter backers

[Sureshot]

I think it's time that the members of this desperate vocal minority smear campaign are removed from the forums.

Your really not helping a already tense situation.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think it's time that the members of this desperate vocal minority smear campaign are removed from the forums.

Your really not helping a already tense situation.

Agreed.

[Giant2005]

Those that are objecting to a lack of vote being counted as a "yes" are failing to realize one crucial point. This isn't actually a vote - they have set a course of action and are giving the backers a chance to override that decision. By definition, that isn't a vote, it is a veto.
Palladium are actually right to continue with their course of action if not enough people veto the motion.

[Killer Cyborg]

Apologies for "not knowing the release dates because this was new to us". No apology for breaking a PROMISE that backers would get their stuff first. With that promise there were no ifs, ands or buts attached. It was a promise. There should be an apology for breaking the promise, not a " this is new to us, we didn't know manufacturing would happen right before gen Con " excuse.

Is there a place where I can read the exact wording of that promise?

This is what is being quoted as the "promise" In the end, you, our Kickstarter supporters, will be the first to receive a wonderful product that we hope will make you grin and provide endless hours of enjoyment. Thank you for sharing our dream. You, your pledges of support and unbridled enthusiasm are very much appreciated.
Worth mentioning is that it was said within update number 125 which occurred almost 8 months after the Kickstarter was over and people had made their pledges without knowing whether or not they would be the first to receive the product.

Thank you for finding that.

I can see arguments both for and against that counting as a "promise."

And yes, that IS worth mentioning.

[Killer Cyborg]

Especially when there is fear of reprisal

Do you have verifiable proof that there will be some form of reprisal? No? Didn't think so.

Do you understand what a fear is?

Fear is the mind-killer.

[Killer Cyborg]

Does Palladium have verifiable proof that everyone who doesn't respond is cool with them selling at GenCon? I thought not.

"...if the vote required is a majority or two thirds of the members present, or a majority or two thirds of the entire membership, an abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote."
-Robert's Rules Of Order

Palladium is making a vote that requires a majority of the entire membership of backers.
An abstention will have the same effect as voting against the measure to cancel their plans for GenCon.
This is all strictly in accordance with Robert's Rule of Order.

[bielmic]

Does Palladium have verifiable proof that everyone who doesn't respond is cool with them selling at GenCon? I thought not.

"...if the vote required is a majority or two thirds of the members present, or a majority or two thirds of the entire membership, an abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote."
-Robert's Rules Of Order

Palladium is making a vote that requires a majority of the entire membership of backers.
An abstention will have the same effect as voting against the measure to cancel their plans for GenCon.
This is all strictly in accordance with Robert's Rule of Order.

Doesn't it say that "abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote" mean that an abstention SHOULD have the same effect as voting NO in the poll? What is happening here is the exact opposite of whatever this Robert's Rules of Order is. An abstention is being counted as a "yes".

Anyone who does NOT respond by July 21st, we will consider to be a “yes.”

[Killer Cyborg]

Does Palladium have verifiable proof that everyone who doesn't respond is cool with them selling at GenCon? I thought not.

"...if the vote required is a majority or two thirds of the members present, or a majority or two thirds of the entire membership, an abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote."
-Robert's Rules Of Order

Palladium is making a vote that requires a majority of the entire membership of backers.
An abstention will have the same effect as voting against the measure to cancel their plans for GenCon.
This is all strictly in accordance with Robert's Rule of Order.

Doesn't it say that "abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote" mean that an abstention SHOULD have the same effect as voting NO in the poll?

Not exactly.
It means that abstention will have the effect as voting "no" against whatever measure is being proposed.
In this case, the measure being proposed is Palladium cancelling their plans to bring the product to GenCon.
So a "no" in this case would mean, "No, don't CANCEL," not "No, don't go."
Even though the poll itself is opposite of that.

[bielmic]

Especially when there is fear of reprisal

Do you have verifiable proof that there will be some form of reprisal? No? Didn't think so.

Do you have verifiable proof that there won't be some form of reprisal? No. Didn't think so. Your question and standard of proof is quite literally ridiculous. In order for someone to have verifiable proof that it happened, they'd have to jump into their Delorean, fire up the ol' flux capacitor, and travel into the future to see where the people who vote no fit into the shipping schedule. Or, you know, illegally bug the palladium offices in some Mission Impossible-esque sting to try and catch them in the process which would (on top of being ridiculous and improbable) be also illegal. Or perhaps have Palladium pay for an independent monitor from the pool of "no votes" to monitor all shipping like an election monitor which is equally ridiculous.

All we have is common sense and hope that Palladium will do the right thing. I don't think personally that they'll do something like that if not out of a moral code but also out of sheer simplicity since it is HARDER and MORE WORK to go and record the names and addresses for some secret black list and they're frankly busy enough as is. What we're talking about is fear and the only "verifiable" thing out there is that, for reasons that you obviously disagree with, people have such a low opinion of the company that they *FEAR* they'll do something like that. Palladium needs to work on that PR problem and devoting time, money, and product that was *SUPPOSED* to go to backers that have been waiting patiently for over a year including 8 months+ of delays will NOT help that situation.

[bielmic]

Does Palladium have verifiable proof that everyone who doesn't respond is cool with them selling at GenCon? I thought not.

"...if the vote required is a majority or two thirds of the members present, or a majority or two thirds of the entire membership, an abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote."
-Robert's Rules Of Order

Palladium is making a vote that requires a majority of the entire membership of backers.
An abstention will have the same effect as voting against the measure to cancel their plans for GenCon.
This is all strictly in accordance with Robert's Rule of Order.

Doesn't it say that "abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote" mean that an abstention SHOULD have the same effect as voting NO in the poll?

Not exactly.
It means that abstention will have the effect as voting "no" against whatever measure is being proposed.
In this case, the measure being proposed is Palladium cancelling their plans to bring the product to GenCon.
So a "no" in this case would mean, "No, don't CANCEL," not "No, don't go."
Even though the poll itself is opposite of that.

No, exactly it does. In your rules, the absence of a vote is a no. In this case, it is a yes. In the literal sense, this poll is the exact opposite of what you're saying. You can't change the question after the fact to suit the answer you want to go with your rule.

[Kendachi]

Especially when there is fear of reprisal

Do you have verifiable proof that there will be some form of reprisal? No? Didn't think so.

Do you have verifiable proof that there won't be some form of reprisal? No. Didn't think so.

Best retort ever. +1

Also, I'd like to say it here, I know I'm not alone in this. Don't vote Yes or No.

Vote: Show Us The Rules!

[bielmic]

@Kevin and Wayne and Alex:

In an effort to be constructive, I thought I'd post some things that you can do to raise awareness without the bad PR that going to Gencon and seller backer's minis will have. You could for instance give away a single mini at demos to hook people and keep long lines throughout the whole day at the booth. People will line up and stand for hours just to get a single mini for free and the booth will never look empty. You could take preorders and do a raffle for one or two core boxes EACH DAY at a scheduled time for added exposure. Basically, if you preorder the boxed set and win the raffle, you get your order RIGHT AWAY instead of waiting till all the backers get their's. You could also give away a small amount like a dozen to selected news sites, reviewers, and youtubers to generate additional press coverage. You could also have another set time where backers come and pick up their packages as long as they arrange it ahead of time which would save you on shipping in those cases. All those things generate positive press and at most (combined) only take away a few dozen boxes from the initial shipment.

I disagree with your statement that the gencon sales won't take away from shipping to backers. Feel free to correct me but I assume from the pics you posted that the core boxes will NOT be preassembled at the factory judging from the naked sprues being organized en masse in cardboard boxes. If you're going to spend the week prior to gencon assembling HUNDREDS of gencon boxes during the only time the full staff will be there then you are by definition NOT assembling hundreds of boxes to ship out to backers instead. If the boxes are not being shipped to you completely ready to go, you are slowing down shipment to backers by instead devoting those man hours to packing gencon boxes instead. I hope that you'll reconsider the above suggestions as an alternative to selling the few hundred boxes at gencon as I really believe that you could easily instead get hundreds if not thousands of preorders with such a popular, well known, and loved series like Robotech WITHOUT the PR mess that this decision has caused.

[bielmic]

Worth mentioning is that it was said within update number 125 which occurred almost 8 months after the Kickstarter was over and people had made their pledges without knowing whether or not they would be the first to receive the product.

That is just the quickest place to find the full quote along with the "promise". It was repeated multiple times both before then and after. Also, here is palladium's own announcement of the kickstarter.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... t-features

Plus, the Kickstarter gives you the first shot at getting many of the Robotech® game pieces before anyone else.

The premise of backers getting the minis first PREDATES the kickstarter and has been consistently and constantly repeated during and after. It was the go-to consolation phrase used to soften the blow of split waves AND multiple months of delays in which we'd only get 1/3 of the sculpts 6 months late (at that time.. the delay is longer now).

[Giant2005]

@Kevin and Wayne and Alex:

In an effort to be constructive, I thought I'd post some things that you can do to raise awareness without the bad PR that going to Gencon and seller backer's minis will have. You could for instance give away a single mini at demos to hook people and keep long lines throughout the whole day at the booth. People will line up and stand for hours just to get a single mini for free and the booth will never look empty. You could take preorders and do a raffle for one or two core boxes EACH DAY at a scheduled time for added exposure. Basically, if you preorder the boxed set and win the raffle, you get your order RIGHT AWAY instead of waiting till all the backers get their's. You could also give away a small amount like a dozen to selected news sites, reviewers, and youtubers to generate additional press coverage. You could also have another set time where backers come and pick up their packages as long as they arrange it ahead of time which would save you on shipping in those cases. All those things generate positive press and at most (combined) only take away a few dozen boxes from the initial shipment.

The goal is advertising not "positive press".
Having the game there and for sale sends the clear message that the game is here, it is done and you can look for it on the shelves very soon. Just having another single mini for sale might have people coming to the stall but those people will walk away with the same message they had next year. Those people will be thinking "Cool, I hope this Robotech game comes out one day soon". It is a very different message being conveyed and the message that having finished boxes to sell is far more valuable than any positive press.

[Killer Cyborg]

Does Palladium have verifiable proof that everyone who doesn't respond is cool with them selling at GenCon? I thought not.

"...if the vote required is a majority or two thirds of the members present, or a majority or two thirds of the entire membership, an abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote."
-Robert's Rules Of Order

Palladium is making a vote that requires a majority of the entire membership of backers.
An abstention will have the same effect as voting against the measure to cancel their plans for GenCon.
This is all strictly in accordance with Robert's Rules of Order.

Doesn't it say that "abstention will have the same effect as a 'no' vote" mean that an abstention SHOULD have the same effect as voting NO in the poll?

Not exactly.
It means that abstention will have the effect as voting "no" against whatever measure is being proposed.
In this case, the measure being proposed is Palladium cancelling their plans to bring the product to GenCon.
So a "no" in this case would mean, "No, don't CANCEL," not "No, don't go."
Even though the poll itself is opposite of that.

No, exactly it does. In your rules, the absence of a vote is a no. In this case, it is a yes. In the literal sense, this poll is the exact opposite of what you're saying. You can't change the question after the fact to suit the answer you want to go with your rule.

In this case, the literal sense is inaccurate.
I'm not changing the question; I'm describing the situation.
Robert's Rules of Order were designed for situations in which a measure was proposed, then passed.
Regardless of what the question is, the proposal being made is that Palladium cancel their plans.
The "No" in RROO isn't a "no" to the question- it's a "no" to the proposal.

Overall, if your point is that Kevin should have, could have worded things better in his post and his poll, then I agree.
If, on the other hand, you're trying to argue that it's not legitimate to assume that absence of a vote means a vote toward the status quo, then you are incorrect.

[Killer Cyborg]

Worth mentioning is that it was said within update number 125 which occurred almost 8 months after the Kickstarter was over and people had made their pledges without knowing whether or not they would be the first to receive the product.

That is just the quickest place to find the full quote along with the "promise". It was repeated multiple times both before then and after. Also, here is palladium's own announcement of the kickstarter.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... t-features

Plus, the Kickstarter gives you the first shot at getting many of the Robotech® game pieces before anyone else.

The premise of backers getting the minis first PREDATES the kickstarter and has been consistently and constantly repeated during and after. It was the go-to consolation phrase used to soften the blow of split waves AND multiple months of delays in which we'd only get 1/3 of the sculpts 6 months late (at that time.. the delay is longer now).

Sounds like the Kickstarter gives you the first chance (i.e., "shot") at getting SOME (i.e., "many of") the game pieces before anybody else.
That doesn't sound like a written-in-stone guarantee that nobody will get any pieces before you get all of yours.

[Marcus]

It's a badly worded referendum and nothing to lose sleep about.

And yes, that's me saying it, who has no interest in RTT aside from the whole mess being very entertaining to watch.
*munches popcorn*

[Jorel]

It is hard to take anything seriously that is claimed in the official or unofficial (murmurs) Palladium informational blurbs. The Kickstarter updates, Palladium Press Releases all read like wishful thinking and not the verifiable truth.

[Forar]

Oh look, the "ATPB" version actually has participants, unlike the RRT subforum where I can hear crickets chirping.

During what was previously the most heated issue to arise in this campaign ("Spartangate"), only around 4-5% of the backers chimed in, by the somewhat painstaking name taking I did out of boredom one day.

It'd be shocking if even 25% or 50% spoke up, let alone nearly 100% participation.

It is all but impossible for the answer to be anything but yes, and what's even sadder is that the Yes's seem to have it, but the choice will be forever tainted by knowing it was irrelevant anyway. As someone pointed out in the comments, from that stance why bother asking for Yeses at all? Every non-vote is a yes, so really you just need to know the No's.

What's fascinating are the votes that are essentially "yes, but ________".

And what's to stop backers from changing names/avatars and voting multiple times? I know this *can* be fact checked, but requires extra leg work to be done.

Do backers that signed up under multiple accounts get multiple votes? More legwork if not.

There's a grocery list of things wrong with this, and I find the whole matter highly distasteful.

A better question would have been whom among the Yeses are so happy to wait that they'd be willing to be put at the back of the line for delivery? To put their simply unflappable patience where their mouth is, so to speak. I mean, the difference between being at the beginning and being at the end is only going to be a month, right?

And yes, that's me saying it, who has no interest in RTT aside from the whole mess being very entertaining to watch.
*munches popcorn*

I'm glad the $1,500 my gaming group contributed to this campaign helps provide you and others so much entertainment.

Not that I expect you to feel bad over something you had no hand in, but it's worth recognizing that a lot of people contributed a lot of money to a company with a somewhat controversial reputation in some circles (I'm trying to be polite and hope we can at least agree on that much). The average backer paid $270, and some paid thousands, for many reasons. The exclusive items, the discount, to be a part of the project, and yes, some wanted to be at the front of the line for what they saw as a hot new product (among simply countless other reasons). Just because you or others don't feel it's important doesn't make that desire invalid, especially when it was deemed appealing enough to be included in the promotional material and referenced repeatedly over the last year and a half.

Edit: and I fear this sets a bad precedent. I'll be surprised if Wave 2 takes them less than a year, which means likely doing this song and dance all over again for Gencon 2015.

[Bad_Syntax]

Anyway, I was a yes vote because I'd rather the game be a huge success than me get my box a month earlier. If I am the LAST person on earth to get it, but it is being played by 100,000 players in the US, I'm completely fine with that if the alternative is that I'm the first person to get it with only 5000 players.

I understand the importance of launching the game at Gencon, I understand the bigger picture that PB is seeing that most backers aren't. I tried to help in the defense over at KS, but folks were too irrational.

A year from now, when everybody has their wave 2's all painted up, and play the game often, all of this will not matter one bit.

[Killer Cyborg]

I was a yes vote because I'd rather the game be a huge success than me get my box a month earlier.

Sounds reasonable.

A year from now, when everybody has their wave 2's all painted up, and play the game often, all of this will not matter one bit.

Let's hope.

[Forar]

A year from now, when everybody has their wave 2's all painted up

lol

You think we'll have wave 2 in a year, let alone early enough to have it all built and painted?

You're so adorable.

[Bad_Syntax]

hahaha, if you think I'll ever get like 300+ battle pods painted up, even in 10 years, you are kidding yourself
.
I have sooooooo many miniatures/models gathering dust its pathetic. I'm a game hoarder!

[Randomfist]

For those arguing that it is somehow legitimate to count an absentia vote as a vote in the affirmative... let's put that theory to a real world, common sense test. Senator Chuck from the great state of Michigan proposes a bill in his state Congress that from now on, of all registered voters in the state, any non vote will count as a yes vote. All bills, amendments, etc. will be decided by a vote of the people and those registered voters who don't vote, it counts as a yes vote. Everyone here knows, using common sense, that bill would be shot down and pretty much certainly overturned by the state Supreme Court. Why? You know what, I can't tell you on a legal basis, but on a common sense basis, it's pretty cut and dry. Heck, let's have a sitting President decree that of all registered voters, all non votes are a vote for him for his next term. I realize a President can't do that in our nation but I use it as an example of how ludicrous it is to call a non vote anything other than what it is... a non vote. And just because someone doesn't vote, it does not mean they don't care either way. If the above law by Senator Chuck actually passed, and a non vote was counted as a yes vote, it's pretty obvious that there would be a higher turn out during elections. (Dang, maybe Palladium is onto something, ridiculous voting laws may force people to get more involved and contribute in the democratic process)

[Giant2005]

A better question would have been whom among the Yeses are so happy to wait that they'd be willing to be put at the back of the line for delivery? To put their simply unflappable patience where their mouth is, so to speak. I mean, the difference between being at the beginning and being at the end is only going to be a month, right?

I personally don't think that is really a fair question at all.
There is a difference between standing aside so Palladium can advertise the game, making it more prominent for all those involved and standing aside so those that are unwilling to let the game reach its potential can get priority. I would personally allow the former on principle but be repulsed if the latter were to take effect, also on principle.

[Giant2005]

For those arguing that it is somehow legitimate to count an absentia vote as a vote in the affirmative... let's put that theory to a real world, common sense test. Senator Chuck from the great state of Michigan proposes a bill in his state Congress that from now on, of all registered voters in the state, any non vote will count as a yes vote. All bills, amendments, etc. will be decided by a vote of the people and those registered voters who don't vote, it counts as a yes vote. Everyone here knows, using common sense, that bill would be shot down and pretty much certainly overturned by the state Supreme Court. Why? You know what, I can't tell you on a legal basis, but on a common sense basis, it's pretty cut and dry. Heck, let's have a sitting President decree that of all registered voters, all non votes are a vote for him for his next term. I realize a President can't do that in our nation but I use it as an example of how ludicrous it is to call a non vote anything other than what it is... a non vote. And just because someone doesn't vote, it does not mean they don't care either way. If the above law by Senator Chuck actually passed, and a non vote was counted as a yes vote, it's pretty obvious that there would be a higher turn out during elections. (Dang, maybe Palladium is onto something, ridiculous voting laws may force people to get more involved and contribute in the democratic process)

It couldn't be applied to an election. In an election you are choosing which party to empower between multiple choices. In the case of this vote, the choice has already been made with the option to veto.
Those that aren't making a choice are not enacting their right of veto.

[Forar]

A better question would have been whom among the Yeses are so happy to wait that they'd be willing to be put at the back of the line for delivery? To put their simply unflappable patience where their mouth is, so to speak. I mean, the difference between being at the beginning and being at the end is only going to be a month, right?

I personally don't think that is really a fair question at all.
There is a difference between standing aside so Palladium can advertise the game, making it more prominent for all those involved and standing aside so those that are unwilling to let the game reach its potential can get priority. I would personally allow the former on principle but be repulsed if the latter were to take effect, also on principle.

So that's a no?

Fine, that's cool.

There are plenty of people in the comments whom are cheerfully taking pot shots at those who voted No, calling them all kinds of names and patting themselves on the back for how patient they are.

So, surely a couple hundred of them are willing to 'take one for the team' and step aside for an extra couple of weeks.

I never said "ALL" of the Yes's should, merely pointing out that some of those who feel it's not a big thing could show how firmly they felt about the matter by volunteering to willingly accept the thing they keep citing as 'no big deal'.

[Giant2005]

I don't even know why the "no" crowd would be complaining about the absence of a vote counting as a yes at this point...
That trait is something that is only helping the "no" crowd seem like more of a majority.
Think about all of those people that would have voted yes but read what was asked of them and didn't bother expressing their opinions because a lack of response conveyed their thoughts anyway - the already overwhelming majority of people that are saying "yes" would be far more significant than it is now, further drowning out the vocal few. Because of how Palladium chose to conduct the survey, those vocal few are seeming far more significant than they actually are.

[Giant2005]

A better question would have been whom among the Yeses are so happy to wait that they'd be willing to be put at the back of the line for delivery? To put their simply unflappable patience where their mouth is, so to speak. I mean, the difference between being at the beginning and being at the end is only going to be a month, right?

I personally don't think that is really a fair question at all.
There is a difference between standing aside so Palladium can advertise the game, making it more prominent for all those involved and standing aside so those that are unwilling to let the game reach its potential can get priority. I would personally allow the former on principle but be repulsed if the latter were to take effect, also on principle.

So that's a no?

Fine, that's cool.

There are plenty of people in the comments whom are cheerfully taking pot shots at those who voted No, calling them all kinds of names and patting themselves on the back for how patient they are.

So, surely a couple hundred of them are willing to 'take one for the team' and step aside for an extra couple of weeks.

I never said "ALL" of the Yes's should, merely pointing out that some of those who feel it's not a big thing could show how firmly they felt about the matter by volunteering to willingly accept the thing they keep citing as 'no big deal'.

I don't care for Robotech and didn't actually partake in the Kickstarter nor do I intend to purchase it upon release so it doesn't really concern me but if the same question had been posted regarding the Megaversal Insider books, my opinion would be more relevant.
I am a pretty patient guy - waiting for NG 1 and 2 was something I was happy to do and I would have been happy enough to wait another couple of years if that is what it took and I'd happily wait until the majority of the other people had received their goods and not give it a moment's thought. However I would never willingly wait longer than those that spent their time bad-mouthing, obstructing the process and generally trying to sabotage everything at every turn. The needs of those who's influence is entirely negative in nature should never be placed before the more positive members of a community in my opinion.

[Forar]

However I would never willingly wait longer than those that spent their time bad-mouthing, obstructing the process and generally trying to sabotage everything at every turn. The needs of those who's influence is entirely negative in nature should never be placed before the more positive members of a community in my opinion.

How has anyone "obstructed" or "sabotaged" the campaign?

PB is made up of veterans of the industry, some with more years in it than many of their fans have been alive. I doubt anything I or anyone else has to say about them has caused them to lose a wink of sleep.

I think you're vastly overstating whatever 'damage' may have been done by... some heated words on a comment section that all but nobody other than other backers reads.

[Giant2005]

However I would never willingly wait longer than those that spent their time bad-mouthing, obstructing the process and generally trying to sabotage everything at every turn. The needs of those who's influence is entirely negative in nature should never be placed before the more positive members of a community in my opinion.

How has anyone "obstructed" or "sabotaged" the campaign?

PB is made up of veterans of the industry, some with more years in it than many of their fans have been alive. I doubt anything I or anyone else has to say about them has caused them to lose a wink of sleep.

I think you're vastly overstating whatever 'damage' may have been done by... some heated words on a comment section that all but nobody other than other backers reads.

I'm not in a position to say one way or the other how much damage those actions are inflicting as I have no experience in trying to quantify that sort of publicity but if the vote went your way, not being able to sell the game at Gencon would have absolutely had a significant impact on the future of the game.
Palladium has always lacked on advertising, almost relying entirely on conventions such as Gencon and word of mouth - to not have boxes there to sell indicating the product is finally ready and good to go would seriously hinder their primary form of advertising. With significantly reduced awareness of the game, sales and people to play against too would be significantly reduced.

[Bad_Syntax]

There are a lot more 'Yes' answers than 'No' answers in that thread.

Say whatever you want, the folks that care voted, and the 'No' votes have lost.

But like so many losers, they don't know the battle is lost

Warning: Warned for trolling/insulting/baiting a Forum user/entity. -NMI

[Forar]

Oh, cool. 9 hours into a week long vote and you're willing to call it. Glad you saved us some time!

[Killer Cyborg]

For those arguing that it is somehow legitimate to count an absentia vote as a vote in the affirmative... let's put that theory to a real world, common sense test. Senator Chuck from the great state of Michigan proposes a bill in his state Congress that from now on, of all registered voters in the state, any non vote will count as a yes vote. All bills, amendments, etc. will be decided by a vote of the people and those registered voters who don't vote, it counts as a yes vote. Everyone here knows, using common sense, that bill would be shot down and pretty much certainly overturned by the state Supreme Court.

Okay, Senator Chuck proposes that bill.
BUT, that bill would require a change in the Michigan state constitution, and that means that in order for his bill to pass, that bill has to be ratified by the voters at the next general election, unless a special election is called. Michigan happens to be a state requiring that sort of thing.
Either way, it has to be ratified by the voters.
It wouldn't get to the Supreme Court.

But that's not the only way your hypothetical situation fails to be analogous.

What we're dealing with in this case is a situation where there is a specific number of people that Palladium wants input from.
In order for Palladium to change their mind, they are requiring that the majority of the members of that group vote for them to NOT bring the product to GenCon before they change their previous decision.
Bringing the product to GenCon was a decision that was already made, and now they're considering a proposal to undo that decision.

There is a term for this kind of vote, and it is NOT a general election. This requires what they call an "Absolute Majority"- the majority of ALL the members need to vote to pass a change in order for that change to occur.
In this case, that change is "cancelling existing plans to bring the product to GenCon."

In cases where an absolute majority is required, it is extremely common (if not universal) for the deciding body to count abstentions as votes against the proposed change.
I already cited Robert's Rules of Order on the subject, but here's another source:
http://www.law.uchicago.edu/files/files/103.pdf
A major difference between the simple majority scheme and the absolute majority scheme is the effect of abstention from voting or physical absence from the voting institution.
Under any absolute voting scheme, the requisite majority needed to enact a proposal is a fixed quantity, whereas under a simple majority scheme the requisite majority is variable.
The consequence is that under the absolute majority scheme, abstention or absence from the legislature in effect counts as a negative vote, because it reduces the pool from which
the requisite fixed number of affirmative votes can be drawn.

It's not uncommon for a government to require a Super Majority in many situations, meaning that they require MORE than 50% approval in order for a change to go through. Often, they require a 2/3 majority to approve the change.
Sometimes they even require an absolute 2/3 super majority, meaning that two thirds of their entire body (not just those present) need to approve a change before it can be accepted.
With the US Senate, that's what is required to end a filibuster, for example.
Two thirds of the entire body need to vote for the change.
Abstention is counted as a vote against the change.

If you're a US senator, and a vote is made to end a filibuster, then if you don't vote- for whatever reason- your vote is counted as a vote against ending the filibuster.
Just like in this case, if you're a Backer for this project, then if you don't vote- for whatever reason- your vote is counted as a vote against canceling the GenCon plans.

The main difference is that Palladium is being more fair, requiring only an absolute majority of 50%, not a super majority of 66.666%.

[Jorel]

Nothing about this seams fair to the backers who funded this expecting to receive this product before it hits market. Palladium is putting it for sale in the marketplace of GenCon before 90% of backers receive the merchandize they paid for over a year ago.

[Killer Cyborg]

Nothing about this seams fair to the backers who funded this expecting to receive this product before it hits market. Palladium is putting it for sale in the marketplace of GenCon before 90% of backers receive the merchandize they paid for over a year ago.

For which Kevin apologized, explained, and asked for a vote.

The main thing is, you left out an important couple of words there: "Some Of."
As in, "Nothing about this seams fair to some of the backers who funded this expecting to receive this product before it hits market."

The vote is to see how large that number of unhappy backers are, and how unhappy they are.
IF the majority of backers are not actively unhappy about this, then is it really fair to expect Palladium to cancel their plans to have the product at GenCon?

[Giant2005]

Man I do not envy whoever plans on collating those votes.
My curiosity got the better of me so I thought I'd tally them up to see what the count was. I was foolish enough to record names as I went to ensure I wasn't going to count anyone that wanted to sneak in extra votes more than once...
I got through two pages before I realized that my lack of desire to torture myself in that way far outweighed my curiosity.

Now I am thinking that Kevin's idea to have non-votes count as a yes was genius - that decision might save him or someone else having to wade through that hell.


BTW after those two pages, the vote was at 17 against and 71 for taking the product to Gencon.

[Warshield73]

Also, the one's saying they're fearing reprisal are no voters that are trying to use fallacies to sway people. They are effectively the birther movement of this vote. Making baseless accusations to try and sew doubt.

Are you trying to say that my order is not in Kenya?

Seriously, I love this analogy. Many of the people who are voting no on this are the people who have been making up facts and denying reality since November so it fits perfectly.

[Giant2005]

Okay so it turns out I am a touch masochistic and I counted a couple more pages.
So far there have been no double votes which is pretty awesome and the vote is 27 against, 150 for.
I'm not going to count any more though as I realized it is virtually impossible while people are still voting - the extra votes pushed everything back a page while I was counting and I'd be willing to bet it made me skip half a page worth of votes and that is only after counting a paltry 4 pages...

There have been some notables making their votes heard already, in the "For" camp we have Elminster, Bobafett and Thoth but in the "Against" camp we have Cthulhu... To be honest I don't think it matters how the votes fall, Kevin should probably listen to Cthulhu.

[Warshield73]

Just for the record, many of us "yes" votes have sent PMs telling PB to put us at the back of the line if for no other reason than the slim hope that those whining the loudest, who apparently do not understand what KS is for or read the terms & conditions for it, about this will shut up for at least a week or two before they start whining about wave...

A better question would have been whom among the Yeses are so happy to wait that they'd be willing to be put at the back of the line for delivery? To put their simply unflappable patience where their mouth is, so to speak. I mean, the difference between being at the beginning and being at the end is only going to be a month, right?

I personally don't think that is really a fair question at all.
There is a difference between standing aside so Palladium can advertise the game, making it more prominent for all those involved and standing aside so those that are unwilling to let the game reach its potential can get priority. I would personally allow the former on principle but be repulsed if the latter were to take effect, also on principle.

So that's a no?

Fine, that's cool.

There are plenty of people in the comments whom are cheerfully taking pot shots at those who voted No, calling them all kinds of names and patting themselves on the back for how patient they are.

So, surely a couple hundred of them are willing to 'take one for the team' and step aside for an extra couple of weeks.

I never said "ALL" of the Yes's should, merely pointing out that some of those who feel it's not a big thing could show how firmly they felt about the matter by volunteering to willingly accept the thing they keep citing as 'no big deal'.

I don't care for Robotech and didn't actually partake in the Kickstarter nor do I intend to purchase it upon release so it doesn't really concern me but if the same question had been posted regarding the Megaversal Insider books, my opinion would be more relevant.
I am a pretty patient guy - waiting for NG 1 and 2 was something I was happy to do and I would have been happy enough to wait another couple of years if that is what it took and I'd happily wait until the majority of the other people had received their goods and not give it a moment's thought. However I would never willingly wait longer than those that spent their time bad-mouthing, obstructing the process and generally trying to sabotage everything at every turn. The needs of those who's influence is entirely negative in nature should never be placed before the more positive members of a community in my opinion.

In general I agree with Giant, but since there is no chance that they are going to go away as anything other than mad, I just want them to go away.

[Rimmer]

Does anybody know of any single voting system that catagorises a "Don't Know" "Abstain" "Forgot" into an automatic "Yes" or "No' vote ?

Apart from say the Mugabe system ?

[The Dark Elf]

I voted yes because in his explanation what happens at gen con doesn't affect the state of my order. Simple.

[ffranceschi]

I voted YES because if this "Robotech thing" fails, it will bring dire consequences to Palladium Books and the other game lines (it's just too big a thing not to have an impact, good or bad; I have been saying this from day one). They need to advertise in Gen Con, there's no way around it. But I am not blind, they should also think about all the angry backers and try some form of compensation, even a small one, just a token of gratitude...

[Giant2005]

I voted YES because if this "Robotech thing" fails, it will bring dire consequences to Palladium Books and the other game lines (it's just too big a thing not to have an impact, good or bad; I have been saying this from day one). They need to advertise in Gen Con, there's no way around it. But I am not blind, they should also think about all the angry backers and try some form of compensation, even a small one, just a token of gratitude...

Isn't that what the vote is? What more could anyone want than the ability to alter a decision they disagree with?
Offering more than that is akin to offering compensation to those that voted for a political party that didn't secure enough votes to attain position.

[jreece06]

I greatly dislike the fact that anything other than a no, is treated as a yes. Silence is not consent. It's silence.

I am also really offended that this is all because Kevin DECIDED to lie to us. Now, before proof is asked for, I will point to the above quotes telling backers they would get their product first, and then submit that taking product to GenCon is a CHOICE. (clearly, or no vote could even happen. Kevin is in no way obligated to take RRT to Gencon.)

That means, he CHOSE to go back on the "KS people first" that has been stated repeatedly, to make a few quick sales.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but this is the only untruth that PB has been 100% responsible for. I could understand the delays. I could understand that timelines where given in excitement and hope, while bitter cynicism would have probably given more accurate dates... I didn't feel lied to by a company I've poured more money than I like to admit into.

This all started from a lie... a lie is a breach of trust. A company like palladium requires the trust of it's fans to continue. We pay for books in advance, we order from their website, and now we vote...

But can any vote that is designed to say "you can stop me from breaking my word, if and only if, at least 50% vote no... oh ya, and any non-votes are votes for the decision I already want to make" is taken with a grain of salt? You can't go into a situation dishonestly, rig things in your favour, and then get mad when people view it with skepticism.

[ffranceschi]

I voted YES because if this "Robotech thing" fails, it will bring dire consequences to Palladium Books and the other game lines (it's just too big a thing not to have an impact, good or bad; I have been saying this from day one). They need to advertise in Gen Con, there's no way around it. But I am not blind, they should also think about all the angry backers and try some form of compensation, even a small one, just a token of gratitude...

Isn't that what the vote is? What more could anyone want than the ability to alter a decision they disagree with?
Offering more than that is akin to offering compensation to those that voted for a political party that didn't secure enough votes to attain position.

You're right but the situation is very complicated and you need all the backers together to make this a success story, so they should think on doing something (I am really not sure what) to regain the trust of them all...I see the vote, just as a first step in the right direction...

[Forar]

There are so many tyrannical politics and sexual assault analogies, I don't even know where to begin, and it's impressive to see people defending it.

Silence equals consent gives us the answer before the 'poll' even began.

And as noted previously, it seems the Yes's have a strong lead, which means the ballot boxes didn't even need to be stuffed in the first place.

They tried to give the illusion of a choice, and had so little faith in their backers to side with them that they transparently gave us the answer right out of the gate.

Anyone that thinks that even half the backers were going to vote obviously isn't very familiar with Kickstarter. During one of the most contentious periods of this projects history, we had roughly 4-5% of the backers speaking up. We'll be lucky if the voting breaks 30-40%.

[Sureshot]

This is not a tense situation. This is four people having a tanrum in public who need their soap box privileges removed. Palladium has repeatedly addressed the "concerns" your group has voiced and you have repeatedly proven that you are not interested in anything other than pitching a fit.

If your talking about RTT. I'm not even a backer. I just call a bad business like I see it a bad one. Offering non-backer access to minis before anyone else is a truly bad decision imo. People don't take kindly to people asking for money to get a product first. Then find out that does who have not paid get the product first. All for quick sales. If you think it's just a handful of people I suggest you go take a long hard look at the comments section of RTT. It's more than just four people there.

If you want to take offend people then ignore when people ask you to tone it down. Whom am I to stop you. Go ahead if it makes your day better.

As for the vote what could have been a good thing to salvage the situation was ruined to a small extent. Saying that if they don't hear from backers = a yes vote. Which is a mistake and may look like no matter what they are going ahead and sell at Gencon. I would have simply said whichever votes yes or no that we get more off we will proceed. People will still complain yet some always will.

[The Galactus Kid]

I voted yes. If you would like to discuss why, we can talk via PM, at GenCon or at the Open House.

[Forar]

Also, the update has left me with some questions.

If we were to leave that product at our warehouse instead of taking it to Gen Con, not one single Kickstarter backer would get his or her rewards any sooner.

This does not say that bringing the rewards to Gencon won't potentially lead to some backers getting their packages later, however. It may not be your intention, but if container 2 gets held up in customs or bad weather keeps it in port (or any number of other issues beyond your control), those hundreds of boxes could translate into hundreds (or even thousands, as such delays would propagate down the chain) of backers waiting longer than they would have otherwise.

Maybe just a few days, maybe weeks, maybe longer, should a cavalcade of issues erupt in the next 2-3 months.

We are not selling any Kickstarter exclusives, just the basic items listed above.

Nobody is getting KS exclusives until wave 2 anyway. What about convention exclusives? Will Palladium have Max and Miriya again? Any new ones?

You, our Kickstarter backers, are still getting special rewards for your funding, including those same retail products at below retail prices, plus Kickstarter exclusives that nobody else will ever get, and add-ons that won’t hit retail stores for some time to come.

Below MSRP? Certainly. Below retail? Not by much when it comes to add ons: the VT pack you sold for $25 during the KS campaign is pre-selling for $29 right now. The "battle cry" pack was an incredible deal, no doubt about that. The Add Ons were essentially a 10% off pre-order discount.

Almost all of the KS exclusives were noted to be "Kickstarter AND CONVENTION exclusives". I think the SDF-1 and possibly the objective packs are the only pure KS exclusives (edit: also the Battlefoam carrying case), and as somewhat pricey non-figure pieces, I imagine they were also among the least purchased add ons.

Edit: Note, if this is incorrect, I would be simply fascinated to see what people ended up ordering in detail, when all was said and done. How many Core boxes are going out to backers anyway? Ricks? Roys? Zentraedi Infantry packs? Etc.

We know how frustrated and upset you feel about everything. We feel the same, many times over.!

Empathy isn't a competition. And while perhaps your hands have been tied in ways we'll never know, at the end of the day, Palladium has been in a position to remotely do something about it, and to speak frankly to the backers. Those release dates may have been given to us in good faith, but it took figuratively pulling teeth to get information about what was holding things up. Supposedly a file compatibility issue is a big part of why we're here, and far as I know it's never even been mentioned in an update or newsletter, merely a Facebook comment. Month after month, we'd be told how amazing and 'mouth wateringly 98% final' everything was (to hit upon a few often repeated words), which sat directly at odds with the ever later delivery time frame.

As a tangential aside, what assurances do we have that we won't be doing this again next year? It will have taken nearly a year and a half to deliver on the first dozen sprues. I find it hard to believe that roughly twice as many will be completed in half the time.

We will begin shipping Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to Kickstarter backers before we leave for Gen Con Indy.

This seems like an attempt to assuage the discontent. It may be an impossible promise to keep due to factors beyond your control. So... what if you don't?

And I'm just going to leave this here:

In the end, you, our Kickstarter supporters, will be the first to receive a wonderful product that we hope will make you grin and provide endless hours of enjoyment.

Any comment?