PDFs... and why they suck for creators

[FatherMorpheus]

I match all of my books, if you buy the paperback from Amazon you get the eBook for free.

I like when publishers do that.

I love it when publishers do this! Wish Palladium did!

[FatherMorpheus]

Just keep in mind the Bottled Water concept.

Water can be gotten for free from any public drinking fountain in the modern world. Or you can bring water from home at a rate of less than $0.25 a gallon. But people choose to pay upwards of $4.00 USD a bottle for what is thought to be a better product.

Now, it does suck that people pirate your works. Of course, maybe this is good for you. It is free publicity. Maybe 1 in 1,000 of those people who torrent it will go buy it from you. If 1,000,000 people download it that would be 1000 people who purchase it who wouldn't have otherwise.

You need to look at scale. If you are publishing these to get rich then perhaps you need to rethink your chosen career. Remember 'Starving Artist' is so common because that is the reality. If you are doing this for the love of writing and wanting to get your stories out there, then perhaps that is the right mind set. If you make some money as you go along, all the better.

[Braden Campbell]

I must say, I'm a bit dumbfounded by the number of responses that basically tell me to "find the good in the bad", or to "think of piracy as free potential advertising".

[Jorel]

if you cannot change something you really do need to learn how to live with it.

[Shark_Force]

yeah, i wouldn't ever go so far as to say that it doesn't suck.

but i will say that it's going to happen pretty much no matter what you do, and that it's not a reason to dislike publishing in PDF. not liking people stealing your work is a perfectly reasonable perspective. refusing to sell something to honest people when the dishonest people will steal it anyways is not a solution though.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I must say, I'm a bit dumbfounded by the number of responses that basically tell me to "find the good in the bad", or to "think of piracy as free potential advertising".

What are the alternatives? Stop writing? If you're an Author you're not very likely doing it for the money. You do it because you love to write. So that's out. Never publish an Ebook? Well that's going to severely hamper you in 2014+.

So you're down to "Find the good in the bad" and or, and I'm sorry if it sounds a bit harsh "Suck it up butter cup. It's the world we live in now". I know it's a little crappy, but it's not like it's 'JUST YOU' and noone else has the same problem. It's an industry wide thing. It's part of the industry. You either accept it, as distasteful as it -is-. Or you don't and stop writing.

Note I'm not saying it's 'right' that your work is getting shared around. The one guy that probably broke it and put it up on a site that's cross referenced to other sites is still a tool. I'm just saying sitting at home weeping into your pillow or raging around your room isn't going to change the industry.

Accept that people are going to do this thing, and try and make the best out of it. Other wise you're going to be sad/angry all the time and the people downloading your books aren't ever going to care. Again. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying it's going to happen. You KNOW it's going to happen. Expecting it not to happen is naive. Getting upset/angry about it is justified. Totally justified, but in the end, hurts the pirates not a lick, and hurts you.

Accept and try and make the best of it.

The other option is to not accept it, stop writing and kill that part of yourself. Yuck.

[Dreamstreamer]

So, for everyone who insists that RPG materials should be published as PDF's take note: while it a blessing for you as GMs and players, from the creative side of things, it's far too open to abuse that impacts our monetary bottom line.

*sigh*

More fear mongering fallacies from the platform of piracy. These stale arguments are the same ones brought up (and refuted) in every thread requesting PDFs of current titles. I suppose you would advocate for Palladium Books to pull all titles from DriveThruRPG? Can't have those pirates sharing Palladium Books' creative works on torrent sites, can we? Because they didn't exist before Palladium Books decided to put them up, right? Or maybe it's okay now, because the titles on DriveThruRPG are (largely) out of print anyway?

Being treated as a second-class citizen for going digital sucks. Being treated as though I were a thief for wanting content in an easily accessible manner? (More DRM, that's what's needed to keep it legit!) Yeah, that sucks too.

I get it, copying creative material is bad. But are you more upset that you found the work online, or just that it went up on torrent sites so quickly? I'm curious because your arguments could have just as easily been filed under the following threads:
"Smartphones/Camera Apps... and why they suck for creators"
"Flatbed Scanners... and why they suck for creators"
"Word Processors... and why they suck for creators"
"Photocopiers... and why they suck for creators"
"Typewriters... and why they suck for creators"
"Monks (with quills, parchment, and ink)... and why they suck for creators"

As long as creators have tools, so do copiers.

I can understand being upset that your income is affected by this occurrence. I followed a couple of the search results to the torrent links. One uploader goes by the handle BranStark. A quick look at that user's profile shows that they upload pretty much every Warhammer 40k book (432 items and counting) since joining one of the torrent sites almost a year and a half ago. It is unfortunate that thieves like BranStark cut into profits and give those who desire legal means of acquiring digital content a bad name.

May you, Braden, still enjoy considerable remuneration for your efforts. Seriously, good luck.

Pedantically, the site you link to (Black Library) doesn't offer your title in PDF (Adobe format that supports complex layout; ideal for replicating the printed page and used as the format of choice for RPGs), only epub and mobi (repackaged/zipped HTML with a manifest file; easy to adjust and re-flow text for readability on eReaders such as the original Kindle, or offerings from Kobo, Sony, and others). Also, the US price when I visited the site was $2.99, not $4. FYI.

[FluidicAztec]

So...yup, e-content is the future. People who download pirated stuff will get ill gotten goods one way or the other. Sometimes pirated material is the biggest form of advertising. HBO's Game of Thrones is one of the most pirated shows EVER http://bgr.com/2013/06/24/game-of-thrones-piracy-statistics/. And guess what, HBO is cool with it http://bgr.com/2013/04/01/hbo-online-piracy-analysis-408449/...I realize there is a HUGE difference in the economy of scales vs. Mr. Campbell's material, but at least you name is getting out there. And maybe, just maybe, it's driving more sales. I am a proponent of buying hard copies. And I try and buy from Palladium at full price to support their enterprise. And I would even consider doing a book refresh if they would simply post the silly printings on the stores website description of each book. I personally feel Palladium would fare much better by getting current material out there in PDF.

[jreece06]

There are numerous reasons things like this happen, and while no one deserves to be robbed, I can't be the only one taught to take SOME precautions right?

That said, people (generally) take torrents because its EASIER than to get a legit copy.

The number of people torrenting music has actually gone down in the last 10 years since Itunes rose to prominence. Why risk downloading a song, when you can pay 50 cents for it?

The same has (seemed) to happen with older movies and such since Netflix and such services became ubiquitous.

Are there still theives out there? yup.

Is anyone going bankrupt because of downloading? Nope.

Are people going bankrupt from refusing to walk into the 21st century? OH YA.

[Tiree]

I must say, I'm a bit dumbfounded by the number of responses that basically tell me to "find the good in the bad", or to "think of piracy as free potential advertising".

Tell me the difference of one person using your book, and then share it with friends. My spouse does this all the time, trade paperbacks. What's the difference?

Oddly enough - I remember RPG clubs buying one copy and being a lender library... What's the difference?

Don't get me wrong - if a friend said. Here take a look. And I liked it. I'd buy a copy, and not wait for a second book to come out. Just like music, and TV.

[Jerell]

I must say, I'm a bit dumbfounded by the number of responses that basically tell me to "find the good in the bad", or to "think of piracy as free potential advertising".

I feel for you man. If I was loosing money I made a living on to pirates, I'm sure I wouldn't feel that making it easier for them was a good move.

I guess the bottom line would be, would I make more money selling just physical books verse doing physical books and ebooks. If I was a publisher I might try one trial book and see how it goes. I still wouldn't want people stealing my work.

I have to say, where GW is concerned, I do miss the soft cover army books that were cheaper.

Then, I had to make an ethical decision as to whether or not I'd let players use their ill-gained books in my game... My argument is that if you really like the game, you ought to support the people who put in tons of work and time to create it by paying them fairly for their services. So I nicely explained my reasoning and asked my players to go buy the actual books. All but one of them did; I asked him to leave the game.

I'm with you on that call all the way.

[Braden Campbell]

Also, the US price when I visited the site was $2.99, not $4. FYI.

It's $4 Canadian.

[Dreamstreamer]

It's $4 Canadian.

One of these days I'll stop being so US-centric...

[Spinachcat]

Most free downloads (legit or not) are never read. They just get stuffed in hard drives. However, people generally read the PDF when they buy the PDF. Look it up, there's been research on readership of free vs. pay.

In the old days, books got published in hardcover and then became available FOR FREE in libraries. I have heard lots of authors upset about "illegal downloaders", but I have never heard about an author angry about libraries. If the author is harmed each time someone accesses a book without paying, then every book loaned by a library is a lost sales, the same as a downloader.

Torrent sites = the libraries of the 21st century?

[Eashamahel]

Between the library analogy, the above mentioning of how game groups (and even groups of friends, it's what we did!) buy one book and everyone uses it, and the fact that ALL of Palladium's books (and pretty much any other book) have been available online for download for more than a decade, it's clear that pirating is in no way a new thing. Combine that with the fact that research DOES show that many people who download never read/follow through, and that many people who pirate would not have bought the book anyways, and the whole thing comes much more into focus.

The difference is now people are paying attention. They are going to look to see if their stuff is being pirated and freaking out because it is, as opposed to before when they never SAW people 'sharing' a book around their group, or selling it and it being bought second or third hand (which ALSO sees the author make no money on the sale).

[Shark_Force]

unless the book magically appeared in the library or in the hands of the person in the gaming group who loans it to others, the analogy isn't really the same.

the author may not get money for the people who borrow that book from the library or their friend each time it's loaned, but they do get money for the initial sale of the book.

pirating isn't like the library. pirating is like one person stealing the book, and then photocopying it, and loaning the photocopies to other people. the author is not compensated for their work initially, and while they may at some point be compensated, it is equally possible that they will never be compensated at all.

and whether or not the person reads it, that doesn't change the fact that it was stolen.

the up-sides may exist, but it doesn't change the fact that it is stealing, and it doesn't change the fact that the decision of whether to offer the work as a free sample should be in the hands of the author and their chosen agents (typically their publisher).

one person buying the book in a group *might* be comparable to them letting others in their group only have a PDF, though even that is distinctly different (i've been in groups where only one person owned books before... and it was a real nuisance if the book was useful enough that multiple people wanted it). it absolutely is not comparable to putting the book up on the internet for anyone and everyone who cares to download it to steal the author's work.

[Jorel]

Actually, they still have to buy at least one PDF or physical copy to pirate it.

[Shark_Force]

one person in the entire world does. that's rather different from one person per 4-5 that a gaming group might represent, and definitely still quite different from library copies (which can still only be in one physical location).

also, it's been indicated that sometimes the leak is internal... which means that no, you don't even necessarily have to sell one copy (not to mention that sometimes reviewers can be given free copies, for example, so there's yet another potential way for the PDF to get out without selling).

[Eashamahel]

And yet, PDF and digital replacement of soft cover is the future, and money is being made on them to the point where that is abundantly clear to most publishers and companies.

And your 'internal leak' so no one had to buy it reminds me of the old paperback book warning about buying the book with the front cover removed.k

[Josh Hilden]

I have no clue how much, if any, real money I've lost to torrent sites. What I do know is that I'm making enough money via digital sales to quit my day job and start writing full time after Gen Con.

[Jorel]

I have no clue how much, if any, real money I've lost to torrent sites. What I do know is that I'm making enough money via digital sales to quit my day job and start writing full time after Gen Con.

This tells me everything I need to know about the longevity and legitimacy there is to epublishing. Given quality content, people will pay for it, and a lot of times they will pay for stuff that isn't.

[Daniel Stoker]

Wow, congrats on that Josh.


Daniel Stoker

[Shark_Force]

I'm not saying it isn't a viable method of publishing.

I'm certainly not suggesting that nobody should use it for fear of your work being pirated.

I *am* saying that it's ridiculous to suggest that pirating is not a bad thing.

if someone wants their work shared for free, they will choose to share it, and it should be under their control, or under the control of people they choose. not you, or me, or anyone else.

whether or not it's beneficial to share their work, the choice of when and how to share their work belongs to the creators. not the consumers. the consumer can choose to buy, or not to buy; that is the extent of what we are entitled to.

[Pepsi Jedi]

one person in the entire world does. that's rather different from one person per 4-5 that a gaming group might represent, and definitely still quite different from library copies (which can still only be in one physical location).

also, it's been indicated that sometimes the leak is internal... which means that no, you don't even necessarily have to sell one copy (not to mention that sometimes reviewers can be given free copies, for example, so there's yet another potential way for the PDF to get out without selling).

Ehh not really. Jorel posted what I was going to say.

SOMEONE at some point paid for the book or the PDF before it was pirated.

If a library buys a book and, as it's operating norm, loans it out to 300 people in a year,
Is there a difference between one guy buying a PDF, then letting 300 people down load it?

Only two out of those 602 people paid for the book in question.

Trust me, if they had a RPG section at the library, I'd frequent it. lol

[Tiree]

one person in the entire world does. that's rather different from one person per 4-5 that a gaming group might represent, and definitely still quite different from library copies (which can still only be in one physical location).

also, it's been indicated that sometimes the leak is internal... which means that no, you don't even necessarily have to sell one copy (not to mention that sometimes reviewers can be given free copies, for example, so there's yet another potential way for the PDF to get out without selling).

Ehh not really. Jorel posted what I was going to say.

SOMEONE at some point paid for the book or the PDF before it was pirated.

If a library buys a book and, as it's operating norm, loans it out to 300 people in a year,
Is there a difference between one guy buying a PDF, then letting 300 people down load it?

Only two out of those 602 people paid for the book in question.

Trust me, if they had a RPG section at the library, I'd frequent it. lol

Novastar gave some of his RPG books to the local library. Only to find out that they were stolen within 6 months.

[Jorel]

interesting. I guess they are more useful than your average library book. At least for repeat usage.

[Shark_Force]

one person in the entire world does. that's rather different from one person per 4-5 that a gaming group might represent, and definitely still quite different from library copies (which can still only be in one physical location).

also, it's been indicated that sometimes the leak is internal... which means that no, you don't even necessarily have to sell one copy (not to mention that sometimes reviewers can be given free copies, for example, so there's yet another potential way for the PDF to get out without selling).

Ehh not really. Jorel posted what I was going to say.

SOMEONE at some point paid for the book or the PDF before it was pirated.

If a library buys a book and, as it's operating norm, loans it out to 300 people in a year,
Is there a difference between one guy buying a PDF, then letting 300 people down load it?

Only two out of those 602 people paid for the book in question.

Trust me, if they had a RPG section at the library, I'd frequent it. lol

if 300 people are borrowing a library book per year, there's most likely demand from each of those people for the almost 364 other days of the year that they don't have it (365 days divided by 300 people means each has it on average for 1.2 days), and the library is probably hoping to get more copies, and most of the people are probably interested in buying the book so they can use it full time rather than only when they're in the library (considering the duration they each borrow it for, i presume the book is never actually leaving the library). i mean, unless you are the *only* person interested in that RPG section, you're not likely to get much mileage out of being able to borrow the book.

if only 300 people are downloading your PDF via pirating, not one of them has any need to ever pay for the book.

so no, those really are not even remotely equivalent.

[Jorel]

I think you lost your target and are arguing the wrong point. It is like asking if something is grey enough or is it black or white?

[Pepsi Jedi]

one person in the entire world does. that's rather different from one person per 4-5 that a gaming group might represent, and definitely still quite different from library copies (which can still only be in one physical location).

also, it's been indicated that sometimes the leak is internal... which means that no, you don't even necessarily have to sell one copy (not to mention that sometimes reviewers can be given free copies, for example, so there's yet another potential way for the PDF to get out without selling).

Ehh not really. Jorel posted what I was going to say.

SOMEONE at some point paid for the book or the PDF before it was pirated.

If a library buys a book and, as it's operating norm, loans it out to 300 people in a year,
Is there a difference between one guy buying a PDF, then letting 300 people down load it?

Only two out of those 602 people paid for the book in question.

Trust me, if they had a RPG section at the library, I'd frequent it. lol

if 300 people are borrowing a library book per year, there's most likely demand from each of those people for the almost 364 other days of the year that they don't have it (365 days divided by 300 people means each has it on average for 1.2 days), and the library is probably hoping to get more copies, and most of the people are probably interested in buying the book so they can use it full time rather than only when they're in the library (considering the duration they each borrow it for, i presume the book is never actually leaving the library). i mean, unless you are the *only* person interested in that RPG section, you're not likely to get much mileage out of being able to borrow the book.

if only 300 people are downloading your PDF via pirating, not one of them has any need to ever pay for the book.

so no, those really are not even remotely equivalent.

That's alot of words typed, that didn't address the point at all.

Two people bought the book, 300 each didn't. The result would be the same. You kinda went off on a tangent there about how long people had the book, but wasn't the point. I could say 200, or 100, or 50 for each. I just threw a some what large number out there, in an example.

Cuz... it's an example.

[Shark_Force]

in the library, 1 book is bought, 300 people gained a tiny fraction of the utility of owning the book. they all have a reason to consider buying the book, because they each only have limited access to it.

when pirated, 1 book is (probably) bought, 300 people gain the full utility of owning the book. none of them have any need whatsoever to buy the book, ever. they have it already. they have all the pages. they have all the information it contains. they have access to it all the time, whether they buy the book or not. they can reference it just as easily as they could if they had bought their own copy.

it is not the same situation between the two at all.

[Tiree]

in the library, 1 book is bought, 300 people gained a tiny fraction of the utility of owning the book. they all have a reason to consider buying the book, because they each only have limited access to it.

when pirated, 1 book is (probably) bought, 300 people gain the full utility of owning the book. none of them have any need whatsoever to buy the book, ever. they have it already. they have all the pages. they have all the information it contains. they have access to it all the time, whether they buy the book or not. they can reference it just as easily as they could if they had bought their own copy.

it is not the same situation between the two at all.

You are right, there is some analogies that don't translate well. But the ones that do, do a hundred fold.

People on this message board have claimed numerous times that they prefer the dead tree version. That they use the book as 'bathroom material'. And with the generalized information we get from Record and DVD piracy and sales. We would see the same thing happen with PDF's.

Josh has stated that he sells enough that he can write full time... That's awesome.

People who get a chance to look at a PDF copy, will want a physical copy. I know it's true, that I can find something quicker in a physical book than a PDF Copy. Eventually that will not be the same for me, but for right now it is. And for those books that I really like and want a physical copy, I also will purchase one.

But I ... let me restate this; I want PDF copies. I don't have room for physical books. I don't want to cart around 50 books. AND I don't want to look like some idiot reading a RPG during my lunch break or at School or wherever I am. PDF's and E-Readers has made a huge push into Erotic novels, it would do the same for me when I want to read my RPG in public.

So... GIVE ME PDF's or GIVE ME THE DEATH OF YOUR COMPANY... because right now - I will only purchase PDF's, and the rare physical book that I want (like Robotech).

[Shark_Force]

and i've never said anyone shouldn't release PDFs.

i AM saying it's complete and utter rubbish to suggest that piracy isn't so bad, that he shouldn't be upset by people stealing his ideas, or that it's no different from a free preview or a book being in a library.

i want PDFs too. i feel like the format does offer many advantages, ranging from portability to cost to create to ease of shipping and even beyond (sometimes, the search function in a PDF or if a PDF is very well bookmarked, it's faster to find stuff in the PDF than the book). i believe that it would improve palladium's business if they offered their full lineup of books as PDFs, and i even believe that there will be illegal pirated PDF copies of their books whether they offer a PDF version or not.

but it still sucks to have your stuff pirated. and it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

[Jorel]

pirates have been there since things have existed. Get over it.

[Shark_Force]

the fact that something has been around for a long time is a terrible basis for why we should accept something.

on that basis, someone could justify racism, murder, rape, or any number of other things (those being some of the larger ones, admittedly, but honestly, i don't particularly want to accept lies, shoplifting, or the many other minor things that could be justified the same way). i would imagine nobody here would suggest we should just lie down and accept that those things are going to happen, and try to look on the bright side of them. those things are most likely going to happen somewhere in the world at some time, but it's absurd to suggest we should just stop trying to change the bad things around us because they've been there for a long time, whether they are large or small.

how long it's been around doesn't matter in the slightest. it was wrong the first time someone did it, and it sucked for the creator the first time someone did it. and it will continue to be wrong and suck for the creator every time it happens no matter how long it continues to go on for.

[Pepsi Jedi]

in the library, 1 book is bought, 300 people gained a tiny fraction of the utility of owning the book. they all have a reason to consider buying the book, because they each only have limited access to it.

when pirated, 1 book is (probably) bought, 300 people gain the full utility of owning the book. none of them have any need whatsoever to buy the book, ever. they have it already. they have all the pages. they have all the information it contains. they have access to it all the time, whether they buy the book or not. they can reference it just as easily as they could if they had bought their own copy.

it is not the same situation between the two at all.

If you borrow a book from the library you can.. you know... read it.

If you down load the same book, you can... you know.. read it.

If you need notes from the book you can take the notes from the library book, or the PDF book.
If you need specific information at length from the book, you can check out the library book again, (often able to re-up, online these days). If you have a book on PDF you can open it.

Now you won't always have the Library at your house forever and ever, (though libraries do lose a great number of books to theft). But it's not like they're all that different. You get to read both. If you need information you can take notes from both, and if you need to re-read, you can check the book out of the library again.

It's not like Library books only have the first 10 pages or something. Both have full utility. Same words are in both. You can read the entire book of both. What you're referencing is "Full possession 24/7" which is a bit different.

If I read Harry Potter from a Library book, it's the same as if I read it from a PDF download.

I know Game books and such have stats in them, but nothing is stopping someone borrowing from a library from having a note book and jotting down the stats. Or, just snapping photos on their phone and uploading them if they need reference.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Make money off your product before someone esle does. Or shares it for free

[Shark_Force]

why yes, it is possible for someone to steal your work even if your work isn't a PDF.

that still doesn't make it not suck when someone stills your work.

(also, yes of course i'm comparing to owning the book. there's nothing special about pirated ebooks that makes *them* stop working after two weeks, after all, so that's what you have to compare to).

[Tiree]

why yes, it is possible for someone to steal your work even if your work isn't a PDF.

that still doesn't make it not suck when someone stills your work.

(also, yes of course i'm comparing to owning the book. there's nothing special about pirated ebooks that makes *them* stop working after two weeks, after all, so that's what you have to compare to).

You know - there are features that can be added to a PDF to make it tougher to access other than the primary owner.

You can have a locked PDF that is device specific. I have seen this happen when someone wanted to put a 'Manual' that was purchased via PDF on a shared network drive and someone else wanted to open it.

Watermarks, there are easy to remove ones, and ones that are locked down tight. Companies like DrivethruRPG make it their business to have some really restrictive PDF watermarks. Palladium, is not trained to do them, and thus can botch it.

But even then... IF Palladium or a publisher of any form decides to make a PRINT and PDF book, it is quite possible to still have the book floating around on Torrents. Either through scans, or someone breaking the PDF locks.

[Jerell]

the fact that something has been around for a long time is a terrible basis for why we should accept something.

You've got a point there. I'm all for trying to make the world better for future generations.

Most of my friends that play Palladium, like having the books. However I know one of them would love PDFs. Since I already have most of the books, I'm not sure if I would buy most of them again in PDF. A few I would, as long as they work on my Kindle Fire, just to have them very portable (Book of Magic, PFRPG, GMG anyone?). It CAN be a pain if I'm going to someone elses house to run a game and I feel like I need to transport a small library with me. That might be why I've gotten in the habbit of reading stuff from the books I'll be using in depth the week before I run a game...

[Jorel]

I know people that actually scan there own pdfs from books they bought...like Jaymz, for personal use. They don't share as far as I know, and I am fine with that. I bought all the Insider pdfs and some others from DriveThruRPG. I use those often enough when I game. As for pirate pdfs, I'm not gonna go through and check each tablet, phone, laptop at the game table. If people wanna use those it is up to them. I don't really care and think it is Palladium's loss for not making those pdfs available to the general public for sale like they could. All those books are already out there as has been repeatedly shown. If they offer them for sale people will actually have the option to buy them and that is a good thing.

[BuzzardB]

Quick question to everyone participating in the thread:

What is your personal policy about allowing players who voluntarily disclose that they 'acquired' a Palladium book through questionable mean use said books in your game?

Just wondering.

When it comes to PDFs for any game that we play I generally allow any PDF as long as someone in the group owns a physical copy. I don't usually care how anyone acquires their books, I would be a hypocrite if I gave anyone flak for ill-gotten PDFs.

[Jorel]

that is pretty smart. hadn't thought about that

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Quick question to everyone participating in the thread:

What is your personal policy about allowing players who voluntarily disclose that they 'acquired' a Palladium book through questionable mean use said books in your game?

Just wondering.

It's up to them but it does save wear and tear on my books from them

[flatline]

Quick question to everyone participating in the thread:

What is your personal policy about allowing players who voluntarily disclose that they 'acquired' a Palladium book through questionable mean use said books in your game?

Just wondering.

I haven't run a game since PDF copies (or tablets or smart phones) became an issue, but I'd handle it the same way I handle peers who have "pirated" technical books on their phones/tables/etc:

"Decide if you like it and are going to use it. If you're going to use it, purchase it for real. If you're not going to use it, delete it."

I have no issue with someone previewing a book by downloading a PDF in an attempt to decide if it is worth buying, especially if it's not a book we can find locally, but I totally disapprove (loudly) of keeping and using illegal scans indefinitely.

It doesn't work every time (some people are shameless), but very often an actual physical copy will show up on their desk a week or two later.

--flatline

[Noon]

The question is, if the person was forced to pay for your product if they wanted to see it, would they?

It's the conceit of authors to think anyone who torrented their work would definately have paid for it if they could had no other way of accessing it.

Perhaps some scientific test could be run to check whether people, when forced to pay, would pay or would simply not read the work.

It might turn out that most of them wouldn't read it.

And the supposed big loss of revenue is simply an illusion wrought by ego.

[Pepsi Jedi]

that is pretty smart. hadn't thought about that

I mentioned it a page or two back... lol

[Pepsi Jedi]

Quick question to everyone participating in the thread:

What is your personal policy about allowing players who voluntarily disclose that they 'acquired' a Palladium book through questionable mean use said books in your game?

Just wondering.

I have all the books. Usually two or three each. If someone wants to use a PDF they pirated, that's on them. I'm not a cop. It's not like I demand receipts at the door. Noone else does either.

They can be all high and mighty online but noones checking purchase records for PDFs to be used in the game. Nor are people literally going 'BUY IT OR DON'T USE IT OR GET OUT'. I mean come on. Sure sure. People might get feisty and stuff online but IRL, gimme a break. You're not carding your friends and kicking them out for pirated books.

[Tiree]

I require that I own a legitimate copy of the book at my game table. So if someone wants something in a book I don't own, then they can't have it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well I'd wrote a rather lengthy reply then checked it before I posted it. I'm glad I did. I read the previous post wrong. Then replied to my previous erronous perception. Had to delete all that. lol.

~~~~

Requiring that the GM have a copy of the book that people want stuff out of, is not absurd. The GM needs to make sure you're not cheating or misrepresenting or such I guess. It's different from what we're talking about though. While restrictive, it's not a 'proof of purchase' sort of thing. It's a 'GM needs to have access to/know, the stuff in his game' thing.

Personally I'd ask to read the stuff in the book you're requesting, but that's me. Thing is, I've always been "The Library" when it comes to game books. I've played online for decades, 99% of games I've been in, some guy would take something out of an obscure book and says it works like "X" and I'd go "Really? What book is that in?" Then I'd open my copy and double check. Chances were higher than average the guy or gal was lieing and just counting on people 1) Not to have the book to be able to check and 2) Going to the trouble of checking.

Still. "GM Needs the information in hand, before he lets it in -his- game" is different from "You must prove all your books and PDF's are legitimate, before YOU can use them in the game"
One is a GM making sure he knows what's going on in his game and isn't being abused. The other is a rather absurd 'proof' of ownership from your friends and what not.

[Tiree]

I require that I own a legitimate copy of the book at my game table. So if someone wants something in a book I don't own, then they can't have it.

Interesting rule....and thanks for your response.

It does a couple of things for my games:

1. It means that I control what gets placed into my games.
2. I require only a small number of books at my table, thus my players don't need to own a library.
3. If players desperately want something, they will provide me a book - or provide adequate reason on why I should purchase said book.