Prysus wrote:The last two paragraphs of Limitations (what's being discussed in the above quote) discusses removing or adding "further" Limitations at higher levels. In order to remove a Limitation at Level 3, you already had to have one. In order to "further" add Limitations at Level 3, you already had to have one. As such, in order to have one, you'd have to have it at character creation. The only way to gain a Sorcerous Proficiency (as written) at Level 1 is by spending a skill.
If you find a way (by the text written) to have a Sorcerous Proficiency at Level 1 without spending a skill, quote it. If you find a way to have a Limitation (as written) at Level 1 without first having a Sorcerous Proficiency, then quote it.
I don't think you have to have a Proficiency to have a Limitation. TTGDp27 says the Limitations:
may also be selected or randomly rolled by players when selecting their own characters
The numerical restrictions (like 4 or 2 or 1 with the Proficiencies) actually put on how many Limitations a player may roll or select is independent from the number of Proficiencies. You are not required, as a Nightbane Sorcerer, to select a Proficiency to select a Limitation. You can select only a Limitation if you want.
The Proficiencies-match-Limitations recommendation sounds like it is only 1-way, that you should get Limited if you get Proficientm but not vice versa. It doesn't say under Proficiencies "you ought to use these if you use Limits" for example.
People are free to ignore the Proficiencies altogether and simply start off with Limits because they are cool.
You can also start with 0 proficiencies, 0 limits, and then gain Limits as you level-up to earn secondary skills.
Razorwing wrote:the only way for this to work, is that by spending a skill you get both.
No, you can also get Limitations for free (max 1 for banes, max 4 for humans) without spending any skills. But unlike Limitations-per-level you don't get any skills or Proficiencies for taking the hit, so there isn't much incentive besides RP to do so (Ritual Dependence being a possible exception due to duration/range boost, but if you're going for that you may as well spend a skill and get the Ritual Magic proficiency to further-boost it).
Although... if you planned to get Incantation Specialist later on, buying Ritual-Proficient would basically be a waste, so someone could start off with Ritual-Depend and later ditch it and buy Incantation Spec, in which case opting for a different proficiency (perhaps Group-Cast) would be a better idea.
Nightmask wrote:Frankly all the effort to insist that the character should be out two skills if they want a limitation-free Proficiency contrary to what the book actually says just sounds like an effort to screw over the player by charging him twice for what he should only be paying once for
A less obvious expense. It's not like players have to be screwed-over as you put it. We're simply told we 'should' use limitations too. GMs can opt to not mandate limitations and simply give 4 Proficiencies to a Sorcerer with no hidden-cost Limitations built-in, perhaps only having them as a level-up "problem" which they can suffer in exchange for free skills or Proficiencies.
In fact, by spending your OCC related skills AND acquiring Limitations, this roughly doubles the rate at which you acquire Proficiencies...
If there are any OCCs which gain both related/secondary over levels they could even spend Secondary skills getting rid of limitations. Though I don't recall any specifically which gain Secondaries as they level.
Razorwing wrote:when at least some of those proficiencies (like Incantation Specialist) already have significant penalties added into them.
Psh, a minor save penalty vs rituals and inability to do rituals is not that rough.
I mean heck, Channelers already can't cast rituals so it's just a save penalty for them.
Razorwing wrote:If you want to double-charge that's your choice but that's not how the book is actually written
Actually the double-charge IS written, but since it is a "should" statement you are not required to use it.
Razorwing wrote:the proficiencies themselves aren't even remotely game-breaking or bending to warrant such expense.
I dunno about that, doubled-up Incantation Specialists have wicked spell strength, a bigger repertoire of starting magic, and are great at figuring out existing magic on top of that, which can be built even further with Mystical Lineage. This is a huge deal in a world that isn't as stock-full of accessible "learn magic here" guilds like PF/Rifts are.
Magic Resistance is also a huge survival benefit, especially if doubled-up, especially if it's a Nightbane Sorcerer who gets it. If you can micro-manage your own coven and teach them this proficiency, Group Casting is also amazing.
Razorwing wrote:I don't like how costly they are. As a player, I've never used them for this reason.
Psh, secondary skills, what are you missing out on, buying WPs or physical skills? Due to bonus-lack people only tend to use them for categories which would not get a bonus anyway or for skills that can't be bought as Secondary, not sure if that's even a restriction in Nightbane like it is in HU/Rifts.
Nightmask wrote:Taking a limitation constitutes giving you either a proficiency or a skill at the same time
No, that's just the deal when you level up.
Limitations do not give you anything if you select them at first level. We are simply recommended to apply them if someone is starting with Proficiencies, and given a cap for the number you can start with.
(am presuming here that the 4-max for Prof/Lim is only a 1st level cap, if it was 4-forever then that would mean to get all 4 3-6-9-12 limits that you could not start with any, or that a Nightbane starting with 1 could not get the 3-6-9-12 ones since he would start at his max.
Nightmask wrote:from that one can derive that taking a limitation means NOT spending a skill on a proficiency since obviously the limitation is what you acquired to pay for the proficiency.
No, a Limitation only gives you a free Proficiency during level-ups, during initial character creation you have to pay for them regardless of whether or not you take accompanying Limitations (which is optional, it just says 'should')
Kind of like 'you should select skills besides physical skills to round out your character', it's a recommendation, not a mandate.
Nightmask wrote: if one does have a limitation they shouldn't suffer from more than X number of limitations
\
At first level, anyway. I believe you can get 8 limitations if you start with 4 and then opt to gain a new one at every 3rd level.
One might also interpret that any time one buys a new Proficiency (which costs OCC Related skills as you level, instead of Secondary skills during initial creation) one should select a new limitation too, in which case that could get you around 12 Limitations, if you wanted.
Plus since Multiple Personalities is just some insanity, you could gain that through other means like someone importing MOM-tech or Crazy Heroes to Nightbane.
Nightmask wrote:I'm also wondering what printing you've got of the book at this point (I've a first printing) since nowhere does it use things like 'further limitations'
I have a first printing. It has the phrase "the unfortunate may lose his/her grip on reality still further"
This 'further' implies that someone already has lost some grip on reality, which would refer to level 1 Limitations (1-4, optionally matching Proficiencies bought, but not required, does not offset Proficiency purchase cost though)
Nightmask wrote:I suppose some of the issue might be the wording on that third paragraph, it assumes the GM is forcing limitations on characters and ignoring how in the rest of the text particularly under Sorcerous Proficiencies that it never says you must have a limitation at level one he only says he feels like you should (and ignores or forgets how he's already charging them a skill which should mean no limitation).
I don't think the third paragraph implies anything like this. The context is "the unfortunate" so the non-unfortunate (fortunate?) would not be modified by this.
At most we can take this to mean that you can't gain limitations as you level up if you don't have at least 1 to start... if we take the 'still further' phrase to mean that you have to be reality-slipping from the get-go to further-slip.
Nightmask wrote:the actual cost for a proficiency is just one skill without a corresponding limitation
OR no skill spent but taking a limitation to pay for it instead.
The first line is correct, the second is false. Limitations can only pay for later-gained Proficiencies, they can not pay for level 1 proficiencies, you do not gain a skill or a proficiency for any Limitations you select at first level. However you may have to take that zero-benefit Proficiency at level 1 if you want to be able to develope additional Limitations at higher levels to be able to cash in on those.
Nightmask wrote:he simply refers to purchasing them for skills
later under Limitations behaves as if they really shouldn't get those proficiencies without a penalty
(even though at least some of the proficiencies include penalties)
previously he made no mention of them being required
That's because they are not required, just suggested. We should do it, but we don't have to. He's nudging players/GMs into self-policing by voluntarily taking on the penalties, not railroading them.
The proficiencies which include penalties are offset by being generally better. Something like Keen Eye does not have penalties because it's balanced by basically sucking compared to the other abilities.
Nightmask wrote:in the Limitations section we see as one levels one should be able to get them in pairs with the Limitation paying for the Proficiency.
As one levels, sure, just not with your initial batch of 1-4 Proficiencies, you gotta pay for those, at least. If you miss the secondary skills you ditched at level 1 then you can always gain secondaries back at later levels by taking Limitations WITHOUT new Proficiencies.
Nightmask wrote:So what we have is text that's sure that get a limitation means getting a proficiency that it paid for
As one levels, but you would be wrong to think this applies to the initial batch.
Nightmask wrote:text that says you can spend a skill to remove that limitation
Only at later levels. One could not, for example, spend one of your initial (level 1) OCC related skills to remove a Limitation. That can only be done with the ones gained at higher levels.
Nightmask wrote:makes it pretty clear that then if you spend a skill outright you should get the proficiency sans limitation
Wrong. You have to spend a secondary skill no matter what to get Proficiencies at level 1. Free-with-Limitation is only upon levelling up. However, if you don't want Limitations at level 1, you don't have to take them. So you can just spend the skill and get the Proficiency, since the Limitations are only things you 'should' couple with the secondary-bought Proficiencies.
Nightmask wrote:not get both and be out a skill and have to pay a second skill to remove the limitation later.
That is indeed the case if are forced to start off with an equal number of Limits.
Nightmask wrote:If he really wanted limitations to be required he would have been more consistent in things
They aren't required, just recommended. The recommendation is that they just get tacked-on though. There is not any benefit in terms of gaining skills or proficiencies from 1st-level Limits.
Prysus wrote:I labeled them earlier as Optional Rule #1 and Optional Rule #2.
You can use #1 without #2
you cannot use #2 without #1
I am not understanding why you think 2 can not be used without 1.
There is nothing stopping me from making an Acolyte with 4 Limitations and 0 Proficiencies at level 1. Although selecting something like Ritual Dependence would not exactly hurt him much
I think any Acolyte worth his salt would start off with that so that they can gain new Limits as they level (Blood magic, KAY, not like he can cast magic anyway, LOL) to gain free skills or Proficiencies.
Spending secondary skills for Proficiencies at level 1 may not be attractive to Acolytes since they may want to spend those skills learning Master or Mind Bleeder or Astral Lord or Dream Maker psionic powers (says ANY, so much better than Channelers).
taalismn wrote:a) Brush up your people skills and surround yourself with an ablative meat shield made up of other characters(a high MA stat should help you out there, provided it wasn't your dump-stat).
Dump-stats only exist for those who are allowed to choose where to put their 3d6 results.
Regarding this tactic, start out as Artistic for MA-PB and group Casting. Later double-up on Artistic to become MORE beautiful. Then double-up on Group-casting to double the size you can group-cast with (or whatever else someone thinks this would do)