Is Rifts dead?

[MurderCityDisciple]

Rifts can't be dead.

No other game line combines Dungeons & Dragons, Shadowrun, Traveller, Mech Warrior/Battletech, CyberPunk, Call of Cthulhu, Star Wars, Stargate, Top Secret, Dr. Who, DC, Marvel and Champions Superheros, Deadlands, Pendragon, Feng Shui, Cadillacs and Dinosaurs, Gamma World, GURPS, Vampire the Masquerade and countless other games all in one well thought out, cohesive, comprehensive title.

Like Kevin says, "It's Frikken Brilliant!"

[PSI-Lence]

i'm new here (well was on years ago and forgot my log ins and never posted really) so i'm skimming and trying not to necro post or rub people the wrong way but after reading all the post's i have to point out that the gb penalty from FQ "Their maximum speed is 60 mph (96 km) and they must stop, effectively root themselves to the ground, and aim before firing their, albeit powerful, Boom Gun." you missed "effectively"
not 'literally' not even just 'stop, root themselves and aim' but 'EFFECTIVELY' meaning 'basically' or 'pretty much'

IE if they don't want whiplash or possibly even snapping a pylon and shooting wild since they were running and went from 60 to 0 instantly (basically a 60mph collision)

that said if it's too strong and you want to gimp it a little that's fine but it's always (i thought) been clear that pylon's fire into the ground as the trigger is pulled, at the full extension the 'spikes' would 'pop' out possibly just by momentum

if the GB has a leg blown off, possibly shot in mid air (by either having pylons shoot out into nothing or if the pilot or operator bypassed the system that would prevent the GB from shooting while not anchored)


now passed that i'm happy that any argument means it means something to other people and in that respect it will be a long time before rifts is dead

i tend to come about every so often on 'binges' of rifts it might be 6 months to a year+ that i don't really get into it...then for a year or more i'll buy up any books i can and roll up at least an npc a every few day's (really fleshes out the world having hundred's of npc's and small towns or bands of merc's)

any players new to rifts i introduce all really like it and other than a few 'special' cases most don't take more than an hr to make a char ,though i do have all the skills written out in one spot and all the occ's with minimum stats by the name to see at a glance what they can be (though i always ask first if they want to be a human, alien/mutant , d-bee etc, then magic user , psychic , super tech or a mix and point them to what they can be ) filling out the sheet doesn't take too long as i have my system to fill them out fast and never had a player try to 'min/max' much by skills

if palladium drastically changed the rules (i still have not bought a 'revised' book) it's unlikely i'd buy any reprints with the new system and if i bought any new books and they could not be converted to fit with the old system i doubt i'd buy anymore

[Gaius]

Kinda late to the conversation, but I'm gonna argue with the "Rifts is not dead" side. I played the game pretty vigorously through the 90's and into the early 2000's. Then life happened and I fell off. I bought other "shinier" games, with new rules and streamlined everything. I've run through a ton of games in the past ten years, but outside of L5R, none really had much staying power with me. About a month ago, I got to looking at my RPG collection and couldn't help but notice that nearly half of it were Palladium games. A system that had been collecting dust for years.

And suddenly, 20 years after I played my first session of Rifts (with nothing but the MRB, Mechanoids and Vampire Kingdoms), what was old was new again. It was almost as if I had dozens of new roleplaying books in which to immerse myself.

I've been a gamer since I was 12. I've stayed up with RPG's to this day, keeping abreast of what's hot and what's not. I can't remember Rifts ever being hot in the Internet age and yet, here I am, 35 years old and looking back over my Rifts books with nostalgia and fondness. And brimming with ideas.

I've retired the argument about the system, the rules, CJ's writing, power creep, Mega-Damage, all of it. Because after 23 years, I've realized that I've never really played a game that lived or died by it's system. It's always been about the setting. Rules are easily fudged and often forgotten in the heat of play. Most GM's I've known have usually just opted to wing the rules when needed in order to make gameplay flow.

Rifts was never any different. And the stories we told back in those halcyon days were awesome.

I have first print books dating back nearly 20 years and the binding on them is as good as ever. They're in great condition! The game never died. It just lingered on my closet shelf for years. And now that I'm back, I've revisited the Rifts store to pick up those books I missed out on. And since Palladium only cranks out a few Rifts titles a year, it was really easy and relatively inexpensive to update my library. And hell, Northern Gun just came out and it's awesome! Rifts doesn't feel dead to someone who has just rediscovered the game.

Palladium may not be keeping up with the bigger companies. And Rifts may well be the red-headed stepchild of the gaming community. Who knows what the future holds. But I can tell you, for me, the game is not dead. 20-year-old books that have held up as well as mine ensure that the game will live on as long as I can find willing gamers. And my own son is now 12-years-old...


Gaius

[Lenwen]

I was just wondering if you think Rifts will ever make a comeback and if so, why?

I am kind of down and want to believe that Rifts isn't a waste of time and money at this point, but the evidence to the contrary is mounting up :

1) PB can't produce 3-4 books a year on Rifts, look at Megaverse in Flames as an example. Compare this to successful games like Pathfinder that turn out a new book every other month.

2) PB just got a million and half to do something besides Rifts, the RT Tactics. What reason do they have to work on NG 1 and 2? Or MiF?

3) I don't think Kevin ever really liked Rifts, I think it was more CJ that made it work.

4) The setting is incredible, but that can be duplicated using other rulesets, in fact, I have a friend now that is doing a rifts like game using Pathfinder.

5) There is so little new material, and so much cutting and pasting, I think it turns buyers off.

6) Rifts has always lacked an editor that played the game, playability has always been a problem with it. New players just aren't willing to put up with all the bad for the excellent setting, which face it, is 20 years old now and the novelty has worn off.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Rifts make a comeback, it is one of my all time favorite games, but for now anyways, I think I am going to have to let it go. If it lives, it lives, if it doesn't, well the writing was on the wall.

Rifts is die'ing the slow death .. due to multiple reasons. One of which in my opinion, is that the creator of the setting has lost that "love an feeling" over the entire gaming world of his creation. You have made good points with the lack of books coming out, and that's the reason the number of suppliers are dwindling .. that actually carry this or any Palladium books lines what so ever, which only helps to further push PB as a whole twords that slow death spiral.

[Sureshot]

Chaosium has sold unscathed

Chaosium is releasing COC 7E which may not be compitable with the previous editions. Lost sales to both Realms of Cthulhu and Trails of Cthulhu. Both versions addressed and when need be fixed issues with the rules.

Hero survived the 00s with flying colors

Not dead very much on life support. The Hero developers overestimated the popularity of the system. Released a new edition that went from one big book to two big books. To ensure backwards compitablity. Being someone who has 5E the changes to 6E were not worth buying a rehash of the same product. The rules are still crunchy and complex. Lost sales big time to Savage worlds, FATE and other rules light systems. Only way to get new books is through Kickstarters.

Steve Jackson is looking to ressurrect some publishing lines

Munchkin is still the best seller for SJG. Gurps has taken second place to that and rightfully so. While Gurps is not dead. Their release schedule has suffered with the focus on Munchkin. So the days of seeing a steady stream of sourcebooks like one saw for 3E is pretty much over.

Palladium... well palladium got dropped by numerous distributors and Nerds are herding their friends to play Savage Worlds instead of Palladium. and Green ronin and white wolf are alive still cause some Big cheese bought them out.

A lack of realistic release schedule. No real rules updates. Very minimal PDF support. As well as compotetion from Savage worlds, Fate and othe rrpgs that well actually do get revised and problems addressed with better release schedules is why PB is in such dire straits. A lack of advertising also hurts them. In this day and age of digital and social media word of mouth is no longer enough.

In my neck of the woods it's impossible to find anyone to play Rifts lt alone anything from PB. The one store that had a full library of all their books is no longer carrying them. They will order in new products. Once a older product sells out they are not getting it in anymore. I can't say I blame them either. With competiton from Amazon they need to carry stuff that sells.

[jaymz]

You're a masochist?

[kaid]

I just noticed something else that other game companies do that palladium hasnt'. Release constant new editions with actual rule change,s and then update old books to compensate.
WOTC, White Wolf, Hero, Chaosium, Green Ronin = ALL kept their fanbase and visibility strong by constant releases of New Editions and making people buy new core books and replace their libraries. Palladium has about 3 sets of rules = Original, REvised, and the Ultimate Edition...
and some games never made it past that.

Honestly I have given up on white wolf and D&D to some extent because it kind of offends me rebuying the same books and source books over and over again. I have like 2 or 3 versions of dark suns I think 3 versions of the forgotten realms book all different enough to not really be backwards compatible.

There is something to be said for the new hotness edition but there is also something to be said for not making 20+ books obsolete and then republishing revamped versions of those same 20 books each time a new edition comes out.

[Sureshot]

I know it annoying to have to buy the same material again. Which is why 5E beyond not interesting me rules wise is that I don't want to buy the same books again. Rifts or the Palladium system has not seen a major update in 30 years. It needs a update or at least a streamlining. Or else Rifts will always be the rpg that has the stigmata "love the setting hate the rules". There will be no sudden surge in popularity with the rules as is. Maybe no one wants to hear that yet it's not going to happen. At most gamers might buy the books and convert to another system. The Palladium ruleset is just not as popular anymore. It als suffers from competition with better writte and edited systems. Where you have rules for everything. Such as Savage worlds, Fate, Hero and others.

[jaymz]

You're a masochist?

I think I am.

[MaxxSterling]

It is dead to everyone except us fanboys of it.

[PSI-Lence]

i forgot to mention , it was not too long ago in a game that really is dead now (city of heroes) that i ran into at least one person with a name and outfit close enough that i had to ask if they were a 'glitterboy' and it turned out they were and we both talked about rifts for a good 20 min

at least no matter what one day may come at least with having the books you get to keep them (if an mmo gets shut down you lose everything)

[rrank5377]

That brings up a point. I don't think a game ever truly dies. If Kevin were to retire, say, next year (don't start a rumor, this is purely hypothetical), and does not have a succession plan in place, it's safe to say that Rifts would no longer be in print and no further source books would be produced. By many definitions, that would be considered dead.

Once in a while, my group will play a game called Expendables, which was last released by the now defunct Stellar Games in 1990. If it's still being played, is it still dead? Personally, I don't think so.

Back to Rifts, is it dead? No. It's still being played and still has material being released for it. Once it goes out of print, then I think it has one, maybe two generations of gamers to live through. At that point, when it's faded into memory and no one plays it, then I think it can truly be considered dead.

I will add that I think it's in decline. When Rifts first came out, it was groundbreaking. It had a fantastic, original setting that no one had ever seen before. It was compelling. It was fun to explore. "What else can I find here?" Limitless possibilities. Now, let's fast forward a couple decades to today. When is the last time something truly revolutionary came out for Rifts? What has come out that re-energized its gamer base to make people say "I must play this" and introduce more gamers to it? I'm drawing a blank. Most of what has been coming out lately has been evolutionary, the world is being populated and equipped. The timeline is being advanced. But nothing that gives you the holy (poop) moment that the original game did.

I think that Megaverse in Flames may be what we're looking for. Do something to blow up the Megaverse, turn it upside down and inside out. Give me something compelling that I've never seen before! That is what Rifts needs to give it that jolt.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

More to the point, use Megaverse In Flames as the in-game excuse to completely shake up the setting and pave the way for a true, reworked, actually playable without a bajillion house rules v2.0 of the rules.

[Sureshot]

I think that Megaverse in Flames may be what we're looking for. Do something to blow up the Megaverse, turn it upside down and inside out. Give me something compelling that I've never seen before! That is what Rifts needs to give it that jolt.

I would not get my hopes up. As nothing in the setting or rules will change. Possibly some metaplot yet again im expecting little change.

The CS have plot armor and immunity to any changes due to their popularity with the fanbase. The good organizations will still be written as disorganized and not trusting each other at all. To make sure they cant defeat even minor threats. The evil organizations will still be strong, powerful and united. As well im expecting another super secret evil mary sue organization with unlimited resources hidden in plain sight yet no one notices. Rifts is their cash cow. any developlment that lead to humanity winning back the Earth will never see the light of day.

[rrank5377]

I would not get my hopes up. As nothing in the setting or rules will change. Possibly some metaplot yet again im expecting little change.

The CS have plot armor and immunity to any changes due to their popularity with the fanbase. The good organizations will still be written as disorganized and not trusting each other at all. To make sure they cant defeat even minor threats. The evil organizations will still be strong, powerful and united. As well im expecting another super secret evil mary sue organization with unlimited resources hidden in plain sight yet no one notices. Rifts is their cash cow. any developlment that lead to humanity winning back the Earth will never see the light of day.

I happen to agree with you, Sureshot. I don't see the wholesale changes on the horizon, even if I think that's what is really needed. The one hope I have for "blowing it all up and starting over" is the example set by White Wolf. They killed the old World of Darkness when it was their cash cow and started it over. Starting over like that is definitely a gamble that very few companies are willing to take. It's really hard to risk alienating your fan base in hopes that you'll gain a bigger one while keeping most of your current fans.

As for the rules engine, Palladium is married to it. I can't see that changing at all. I will add that there is one thing I like about it: you can bolt on a lot of things to it without it falling apart. MDC was a bolt-on, for example. Different hand to hand combat styles instead of just a few that you're stuck with. The Palladium system doesn't have the slick elegance of a Pathfinder, but it does function and hold up reasonably well when playing it. I actually run it straight up without house-ruling it.

[Semi-Retired Gamer]

I lost my Rifts:UE core book and today went to replace it from a store. I ended up buying from amazon...

I'm in Boston area. About 8 years ago I could easily find rifts books from:

Harrisons comics, Salem MA
Hobby Bunker, Malden MA
Pandemonium, Cambridge MA

As of today, 7/21/13:
Harrisons carries NO palladium products and employees didn't know the game.
Hobby Bunker carries very few books, mostly left overs. No ETA of when they were replacing the R:UE core book.
Pandemonium no longer carries rifts books, but still has some Rifters floating around.


This is my concern... You learn about games from gaming stores. But Palladium books cant be found.

That stinks. Here in Tulsa, OK we had 4 stores that carried Palladium products:
The Original Game Shop - closed down
Star base 21 - reorganized as a comic books & related merchandise store
Top Deck Games - a scattered selection
Wizard's Asylum - solid selection of several game lines

Unfortunately, only Wizard's Asylum regularly sells Palladium stuff but they have a massive selection - most of the Fantasy titles, some titles from other lines, & a wall of RIFTS! It's about 7 ft. tall by 8 ft. wide. It's not all doom & gloom from the FLGS standpoint.

[Lenwen]

One rebuttal..

Point of fact, Palladium's "Cash cow" is not any line created by Palladium, it is in fact Robotech by the license they picked up. That is their big cash cow.

However, one could say "out of the games created by Palladium" Rifts might be their cash cow. But out of all the property they sell everything combined, Rifts is small potatoes .. compared by far .. to Robotech.