Rifts Melee Weapons - thoughts, etc.

[Bladesplint]

Nightmask -

You are exactly right; this is why I'm bringing in the Rat King of Kent (see above).

My original question was aimed at finding out if other GM's are experiencing a similar trend in their players. Looks like this is an isolated incident, based on everyone's input. This makes me glad it's not something that is happening in general. Don't mistake my question for dislike of guns or the tactics for which they are strongly suited (range, infantry, etc). I like the tech side of the house too; but I'm not going to be handing out Artifact-Level Rune Weapons or uber-magic swords just to keep up with the damage or 'neato' factor that the tech side has in the Rifts settings.

I am most confident that I can curb their sole reliance on firearms; this is not a problem

That said, I loved the information posted regarding the use of Psi-swords (Mind Melter, Cyberknight, etc) and the Burster ability of Super Fuel Flame, when used on something like a TW flre sword or other other fire weapon, in order to make it truly devastating. This is great stuff; thanks so much for the thought you guys put into the posts.

I've rolled up the Rat King's two strongest chieftains. Both are melee specialists and one has a penchant for poisoned blades and crossbow bolts. The other is nasty piece of work that can assume human form and loves to lead enemies into ambush zones, playing the part of victim or hostage, calling for the party to help.

[MikelAmroni]

Personally I don't use the PS counts towards Vibro-Blades rule. One, it's not in RUE, and despite the need for something to be done with it, I have players who would ALWAYS go for their vibro-blades in battle. The 50 PS (don't ask) Kill Hound in particular, although the 36 PS Combat Medic wouldn't be far behind.

What I DO offer, however,is the ability to use the Death Blow attack and a vibro-blade to slip them into the joints in the armor. On MDC critters this this multiplies their damage. On SDC critters, this allows the Vibro-blade to go against their SDC and HP. It's usually a kill shot. Only a Juicer or Crazy will generally live through it.

The other things is I made it common practice for CS soldiers (i mostly run CS games) to affix bayonets (aka vibro-knives) to their rifles and train them in W.P. spear (not knife). Use a bayoneted rifle as a spear. Even better, stick and shoot. It's NASTY. You want to teach a PC about the utility of melee weapons, have an enemy use that tactic. I PROMISE they will be clamoring for bayonets for their rifles and asking if they can attach bayonets to the oddest things (A bayonet on a C-40R Rail gun....really? Alright, why not). BTW, I usually ONLY allow dodges for the follow up shot, and they get the close in penalty to their dodge as well. Unless they roll a 1 or get 4 or less on their modified roll, I generally let it hit. And even if the enemy dodges, I usually have them take vibro-blade damage again (as it rips out of them, forcefully)! I should note I apply this to PCs as well. Fairs, fair and all.

[Alrik Vas]

Deception. Ambush. These are two of my favorite things.

[Nightmask]

Deception. Ambush. These are two of my favorite things.

Do you class thing like land mines and other booby traps as deception or ambush?

[Eclipse]

Ambush is a tactic of deception as it uses concealment. I'd say a landmine is an automated ambush.

[SpiritInterface]

Take out SAMAS with vibro-knife.

Step 1: Roll initiative
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit.

Techno-ninja with telemech and a vibro-knife vs distracted Samas pilot who thinks that he is invulnerable...

[Eclipse]

There's a mind melter with vibroblades, who is mentioned I believe in Lone Star. He leads a group of people and is diabolic in alignment. I'm not sure if it's possible pull off a simultaneous multi-vibro-blade attack using telekinesis, but his favourite trick is using tk with multiple vibroblades. That would give someone a bad day.

[Eashamahel]

I remember talking to a Canadian Forces member who was talking about the order of weapons to rely on, and it went something like:

-Your main weapon (Rifle)
-Your secondary weapon (pistol/second weapon)
-Your opponents main weapon (Rifle)
-Your opponents secondary weapon
-Your non-active weapon (knife, ect)
-Improvised/Environment weapons (rocks/ect)
-Unarmed

It was a discussion about unarmed combat in the armed forces, but it's worth considering here as well. If a character loses their main weapon (rifle of some type generally) and they are not some kind of super-combatant, their first concern should be getting another one.

As for Neural Maces, remember that they are primarily crowd control/stun weapons, much like tasers. We don't give modern soldiers tasers, even though they would be more effective with such a weapon than a RIFTS soldier will be with a Neural Mace (or taser or pepper spray, ect,) because of who it's used on. It's great against low tech opponents (partial MDC armour or none, like mages often have) and non-combatant/'innocent' people. It's suicide against anyone seriously armed/ready for the attack (armour/gun, ect), just like a Vibro knife would be, but that fits perfectly with the CS (original) Dog Boy concept, where they are disposable troops.

Really if nothing else, the extreme survivability of characters in RIFTS (which sounds crazy at first) makes melee combat against armed opponents far more possible/reasonable than it probably should be (at least for non-magical/supernatural characters/creatures).

[Bladesplint]

Eashamahel -

What you describe is also how the Finns fought the Winter War. They had nothing but knives in the beginning. They used those to get rifles and ammo. Then they used the rifles to get machine guns and heavier ordnance. Along the way they learned some innovative ways to use their knives (my grandfather called his 'puukko') which people in modern times would be horrified at; but it was war, plain and simple.

Back to Rifts, I've decided to also add an element of attrition that I've never included before.
I am going to focus on my rat villains' penchant for thievery.

These players are no longer the only kids on the block that like their fancy guns.
Other less savory creatures have taken note of their fancy guns, and they want them too. I can hardly wait to see the reaction in the party when they realize that some of their most expensive technologies have fallen into the hands of the enemy.

Furthermore, I can foresee a sudden change in the overall demeanor in the players when humanoid rat things begin to use this stolen weaponry back against the party. The great part about this, is that I don't need to have the enemy actually steal a GB boom gun. All that would be required is the successful pilfering of a few rounds of GB ammo.

Can you imagine what a crafty villain could do with just a few loose rounds?
I'm thinking - chaos. Traps.

With a stolen vibro blade, the enemy could sabotage things like ammo belts, while cutting up support gear. I'm also going to have the PC's food supply either stolen or poisoned. The only PC that is actually going to be ambushed is going to be the sentry. Those asleep will wake to find the guard either simply kidnapped (missing) or dead in some creative way (still standing upright with coffee mug in hand, but minus all the blood in his body) etc.

Yep; my rat pack is going Finn on this party. This will liven things up and put melee weapons into perspective.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Those are some messed-up players, being that jaded that they just ignore useful weapons like that because 'we only want guns!'. That's not very wise, to say the least. I never go for being overly reliant on just one weapon like that, favoring a variety since outside of a weapon that can morph into a range of weapons no one weapon's good for all situations (even if some are better than others).

Seems like you need examples of those situations to school them on the importance of not keeping all their eggs in one basket. Situations where use of guns would be a bad idea and those weapons they discarded would have been good to have. Give them a reasonable chance to survive but if they don't, well that kind of thing happens when you put too much faith in a single thing.

While I fully agree with the "Never go for being overly reliant on just one weapon". I do. I fully agree that you should have a few and each one is useful in it's own way. I have, in games, gone well well out of my way and some would say to heroic measures to recover a stolen "Wilks Laser Sword" and on a separate occasion my character's NG Rifle (The one that looks like the gun from aliens). Those were motivated though in character things though. Not just 'guns guns guns'. Both weapons had sentimental value to the character in question.

[MikelAmroni]

As for Neural Maces, remember that they are primarily crowd control/stun weapons, much like tasers. We don't give modern soldiers tasers, even though they would be more effective with such a weapon than a RIFTS soldier will be with a Neural Mace (or taser or pepper spray, ect,) because of who it's used on. It's great against low tech opponents (partial MDC armour or none, like mages often have) and non-combatant/'innocent' people. It's suicide against anyone seriously armed/ready for the attack (armour/gun, ect), just like a Vibro knife would be, but that fits perfectly with the CS (original) Dog Boy concept, where they are disposable troops.

The utility of the Neural mace is in it's ability to hand out intense negatives to strike, parry, and dodge like candy, making it VERY easy to then shoot them to death. The ideal make up of a party is a mage to hand out area denial spells (carpet of adhesion, magic net, etc) or a Mind Melter to do the same (TK FF, Bio-Manip: Super, etc), a melee monster running around with a neuromace and a MD melee weapon (preferably with the ability to parry ranged attacks), and everyone else with a good ranged weapon (L-20s are cheap and very efficient). The Mage shuts down their melee monsters, the melee guy harrasses their back line, and everyone else follows Russian Tank Doctrine (Fire on one enemy at a time with everything you've got). If you're looking for destructive ability, there it is Personally I played a GB pilot in a Chaos Earth game, and I had a retractable Neuromace built into one arm (vibroblade on the other). WHEN I got overran, I just started wailing on them with the neuromace. Those immune to the stun still got a face full of GB with a melee weapon. And the bigger ones then got a bit of Boom Gun to the face once they stopped moving so much. Brutally effective. Too bad we were outnumbered a hundred to one....

[Rimmerdal]

Those are some messed-up players, being that jaded that they just ignore useful weapons like that because 'we only want guns!'. That's not very wise, to say the least. I never go for being overly reliant on just one weapon like that, favoring a variety since outside of a weapon that can morph into a range of weapons no one weapon's good for all situations (even if some are better than others).

Seems like you need examples of those situations to school them on the importance of not keeping all their eggs in one basket. Situations where use of guns would be a bad idea and those weapons they discarded would have been good to have. Give them a reasonable chance to survive but if they don't, well that kind of thing happens when you put too much faith in a single thing.

While I fully agree with the "Never go for being overly reliant on just one weapon". I do. I fully agree that you should have a few and each one is useful in it's own way. I have, in games, gone well well out of my way and some would say to heroic measures to recover a stolen "Wilks Laser Sword" and on a separate occasion my character's NG Rifle (The one that looks like the gun from aliens). Those were motivated though in character things though. Not just 'guns guns guns'. Both weapons had sentimental value to the character in question.

Try shooting small enemies that stick to allies....Better hope your buddy has good aim or a melee weapon. That Wilk's Laser blade is a nice one to have. a good replacement for ye the old Psi-sword.