CS Illiteracy - I don't buy it

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I dont buy the "almost everyone on Rifts Earth is illiterate" angle at all - not just the CS, but in general.

For little settlements out in the boondocks, sure, but any resident of a high-tech, advanced nation (of which there are now dozens all over north america, many with millions of citzens) with computers and the like everywhere?

Never bought it; it's just bad writing.

[Killer Cyborg]

When you think about, it would be virtually impossible for a technological nation not to be literate, particularly a high-tech one like the CS.

Without literacy, there would be no training manuals.

Most people do most things without training manuals.
That's because most things can be taught through other means, such as hands-on-training or videos.

Also, not everyone is good at learning visually; many people understand and retain information better when reading it.

Reading IS visual.

Without literacy, most field reports would have to be verbally-recorded and then listened to by the recieving party which would take much, much longer and be prone to misunderstandings and mistranslations.

I guess that's why newspapers are more popular than TV and radio combined.

Without literacy, the medical profession would pretty much cease to exist. Same with nuclear engineering, mechanics, the aerospace field, piloting, manufacturing, chemistry, botany, food science, navigation, etc, etc. Hardly any of these fields could exist except in the most primitive way without literacy.

Believe it or not, most of the population of the Coalition States are NOT nuclear engineers, mechanics, or other high-tech occupations that require literacy.
And I'd think that aerospace engineers would be pretty scarce.

As for piloting, pilots today fly airplanes, not sky cycles or other high-tech devices that probably are about as tough to fly as a video game.
And I'm pretty sure that illiterates can manage to learn how to play video games.

Without literacy, many kinds of communication would not exist: poetry, songs, plays, movies, etc.

Okay... that's simply untrue, and makes no sense.
Poetry existed before literacy did. So did plays and songs.
Movies would have, if they somehow had video cameras.

Also, if there was no literacy, people would invent it.

There's no need to.
Most people don't do things that would require it.

And, keep in mind, it's not like 100% of the population is 100% illiterate.
It's just that the vast majority of the population are functional illiterates.
Hell, we get people posting in the forums from time to time that seem to fit that description.

[Eclipse]

double post.. don't know how to delete..

[Eclipse]

Robots and automation! Easier to control them too.. Plus yeah, just the 'Elites' would be getting the full benefits of their society - the best health care as mentioned in lone star as well as 'luxuries' such as literacy. Of course those programming the machines, the 'drone' class, would be educated well enough in their specialties, just not a broad education.

[Killer Cyborg]

Do you happen to know what the illiteracy rate is for the Coalition States? BC tbh the vast majority of people could be illiterate and society still function. My guess is that the literate would be restricted to military officers, scientists, doctors, any of your skilled professions. If you meet the initial IQ tests/ have the right connections for one of these jobs you will be taught to read and write. If not well all you need to know is accessible from video taped lessons. While being illiterate is not an advantage as far as training goes, the use of visual aids to designate things and simple repetition and practice will still enable the formation of a trained army and workforce.

It's something over 50%.

[Nightmask]

I suppose a useful comparison would be looking at the illiteracy rates of RL nations, like the US and Canada. There are a number of jobs that still don't require you be able to read to perform them, greater automation makes the necessity of literacy even lower. Plus we've no idea just what the average citizens of the CS actually DO, many may actually be just unskilled labor and exist mostly as breeders so the elites can keep generating troops for their wars and campaign of genocide.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The military thing is the biggest one i dont believe for a moment.

Written reports and information is easier and FAR faster to consume and utilize - even at the grunt level. I read pretty fast (2-3 pages per minute) but even someone reading slowly can read a 300-500 word set of information and assimilate it faster than a computer reading the information out loud could do the first two paragraphs. Even a grunt has to be able to read and write, in a modern military. Quite honestly, there are too many ways your hearing can be compromised in battle but still have the use of your eyes that that alone should be enough to require literacy in the military.

And, ill stress again, functional illiteracy and true illiteracy are vastly, VASTLY different animals.

[Giant2005]

The thing about the CS illiteracy is what is the point?
Audio disks exist... All of the information that the CS is trying to keep from the public could be available through such means just as easily as they could be available in books.

[Killer Cyborg]

The thing about the CS illiteracy is what is the point?
Audio disks exist... All of the information that the CS is trying to keep from the public could be available through such means just as easily as they could be available in books.

CDs and DVDs have a relatively short lifespand, even in normal storage conditions.
Burned discs sometimes only last as short as 10 years.
And if anybody found any pre-rifts discs that were intact, they might need special equipment to play them, even if the data IS intact.

[Killer Cyborg]

I agree that a society could still function, but not effectively nor on the level that the CS does. There are too many common things that require being able to read and differentiate between different things.

For example, imagine trying to teach someone how to rebuild an jet engine using only spoken word.

See, you have a different definition of "common" than I do.
Because I've never rebuilt a jet engine, and I don't think that I know a single person who has rebuilt a jet engine.
It's not something commonly done, nor something really necessary for the 50%+ of the Coalition population who are illiterate.

[rat_bastard]

The thing about the CS illiteracy is what is the point?
Audio disks exist... All of the information that the CS is trying to keep from the public could be available through such means just as easily as they could be available in books.

CDs and DVDs have a relatively short lifespand, even in normal storage conditions.
Burned discs sometimes only last as short as 10 years.
And if anybody found any pre-rifts discs that were intact, they might need special equipment to play them, even if the data IS intact.

I think if we factor in the idea that computers are 100 times more powerful and super materials exist, some form of long term storage also exists.

[Killer Cyborg]

The thing about the CS illiteracy is what is the point?
Audio disks exist... All of the information that the CS is trying to keep from the public could be available through such means just as easily as they could be available in books.

CDs and DVDs have a relatively short lifespand, even in normal storage conditions.
Burned discs sometimes only last as short as 10 years.
And if anybody found any pre-rifts discs that were intact, they might need special equipment to play them, even if the data IS intact.

I think if we factor in the idea that computers are 100 times more powerful and super materials exist, some form of long term storage also exists.

For Golden Age stuff, that's probably a safe assumption. Probably PDDs, since that seems to be the equivalent in Rifts.
But for pre-Golden-Age stuff, the most common form of information that would be found would be books.
Also, books would still be around during the Golden Age.

And the way the internet and computers are going, I think that data storage might be more common in non-disc form. I know that my CD collection is collecting dust, because all my music is on my iPod and iPhone.
Electronic books would also be pretty popular, of course, but I'm betting if anybody finds a 300 year-old Kindle, it's not going to work, even if it was stored relatively decently.
A 300 year-old book, on the other hand, might well be pretty intact.
And even if that electronic book does work, the person who found it would have to be literate.
For that matter, in order to use most of our computers, the person would have to be literate.

[Giant2005]

The thing about the CS illiteracy is what is the point?
Audio disks exist... All of the information that the CS is trying to keep from the public could be available through such means just as easily as they could be available in books.

CDs and DVDs have a relatively short lifespand, even in normal storage conditions.
Burned discs sometimes only last as short as 10 years.
And if anybody found any pre-rifts discs that were intact, they might need special equipment to play them, even if the data IS intact.

I think if we factor in the idea that computers are 100 times more powerful and super materials exist, some form of long term storage also exists.

For Golden Age stuff, that's probably a safe assumption. Probably PDDs, since that seems to be the equivalent in Rifts.
But for pre-Golden-Age stuff, the most common form of information that would be found would be books.
Also, books would still be around during the Golden Age.

And the way the internet and computers are going, I think that data storage might be more common in non-disc form. I know that my CD collection is collecting dust, because all my music is on my iPod and iPhone.
Electronic books would also be pretty popular, of course, but I'm betting if anybody finds a 300 year-old Kindle, it's not going to work, even if it was stored relatively decently.
A 300 year-old book, on the other hand, might well be pretty intact.
And even if that electronic book does work, the person who found it would have to be literate.
For that matter, in order to use most of our computers, the person would have to be literate.

I wasn't really talking about pre-rifts artifacts. I was more talking about post-apocalypse people transcribing things to audio-disk format.
Sure such contraband would be highly illegal but no more than a book would be if people were literate. There are always going to be people out there preserving history and if people are illiterate, that history will be preserved in audio format. People being illiterate wouldn't do much of anything to stop the spread of information, if anything it would make the spread of information a whole lot easier considering audiodisks or audio files are both easier to conceal and mass produce than books.

[42dragon]

I also doubt the sheer level of illiteracy implied by the books.

However the CS and others are functioning/building off of future tech. I mean ARCHIE can build, repair, and maintain all manner of robot creations without any humans. He uses other robots that are programmed with the info and other assembly lines and machines to do everything for him, no reading required. Now the CS isn't ARCHE but I am willing to bet their technology level is sufficent to do many of these tasks that would normally require reading automatically and only those designing and programming the tools would have a need to be literate.

I think the military personnel would have a higher literacy rate than implied though.

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE, 305
The ability to read and write is a rare and valuable commodity on Rifts Earth. The majority of the world's population cannot read. Illiteracy is encouraged by the Coalition (and other kingdoms) as a means of keeping the secrets of the past for themselves, and their people ignorant and under their control. Within the CS, only scientists, engineers, military leaders and the elite aristocracy are literate (typically in American only).

Rifts, 82
Sadly, at least 50% of the population of the Coalition States are illiterate, uneducated laborers. Worse, the Coalition prefers to keep its people ignorant and fearful of the outside world, because it keeps them dependent and subservient to their protector, the government. Most of wilderness wanderers, peasants, and farmers, as well as many psychics and mutants, fall into this category as well.

[rat_bastard]

50% seems about right.

[Alrik Vas]

The military does have a higher literacy rate. A fair number of military OCCs have access to literacy skills if I'm not mistaken.

[Killer Cyborg]

The military does have a higher literacy rate. A fair number of military OCCs have access to literacy skills if I'm not mistaken.

You are not mistaken.

People who don't think that the CS' illiteracy makes any sense act as if the entire population was illiterate, and they keep saying, "well, what about (all the people who WOULD need to be literate)!?"
But the answer is, "Well, if they NEED to be literate, they ARE. That's just not the entire population- the majority of the population are uneducated workers, not jet-engine designers."

And yes, a lot of the exceptions are in military positions.
And, for that matter, even the grunts these days have armor that "reads" for them.

[wyrmraker]

I believe they key point in this thread is that literacy is not actually illegal in the Coalition States. The posession of proscribed information is illegal.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

And, for that matter, even the grunts these days have armor that "reads" for them.

Even my 5 year old son can read significantly faster than a computer reading a sentence out loud. That's my point. If i have a 500 word report to read, i can read that in about 20 seconds and comprehend it. If i wait for a computer to read it to me, it will take minutes, minutes that i likely dont have in a combat situation. And there are WAY too many ways hearing can be damaged or impaired that leave the eyes intact. A modern or sci-fi miltary force without full literacy is about as believable as the sun coming up in the south.

You keep heading back to the "well illiterate people can get X that reads for them/reads out loud to them" - that's great when you have the time to sit down at rest and enjoy an audio book. In any other situation, it's not viable at all. The audio book for the Dresden Files book Changes was almost 20 hours long. I read the entire book back to front in seven hours.

That's a big difference.

[Damian Magecraft]

And, for that matter, even the grunts these days have armor that "reads" for them.

Even my 5 year old son can read significantly faster than a computer reading a sentence out loud. That's my point. If i have a 500 word report to read, i can read that in about 20 seconds and comprehend it. If i wait for a computer to read it to me, it will take minutes, minutes that i likely dont have in a combat situation. And there are WAY too many ways hearing can be damaged or impaired that leave the eyes intact. A modern or sci-fi miltary force without full literacy is about as believable as the sun coming up in the south.

You keep heading back to the "well illiterate people can get X that reads for them/reads out loud to them" - that's great when you have the time to sit down at rest and enjoy an audio book. In any other situation, it's not viable at all. The audio book for the Dresden Files book Changes was almost 20 hours long. I read the entire book back to front in seven hours.

That's a big difference.

then do you care to explain how the US Army reports that it has a 12% illiteracy rate in its soldiers and that number is up in comparison to the 80s? (granted they are working toward correcting the issue but it exists.)
The assumption that Illiterates cannot function in even modern society is just shear arrogance.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't put much stock in the notion that an army's existence and effectiveness relies on how fast the line soldiers can read 500 word reports.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

And, for that matter, even the grunts these days have armor that "reads" for them.

Even my 5 year old son can read significantly faster than a computer reading a sentence out loud. That's my point. If i have a 500 word report to read, i can read that in about 20 seconds and comprehend it. If i wait for a computer to read it to me, it will take minutes, minutes that i likely dont have in a combat situation. And there are WAY too many ways hearing can be damaged or impaired that leave the eyes intact. A modern or sci-fi miltary force without full literacy is about as believable as the sun coming up in the south.

You keep heading back to the "well illiterate people can get X that reads for them/reads out loud to them" - that's great when you have the time to sit down at rest and enjoy an audio book. In any other situation, it's not viable at all. The audio book for the Dresden Files book Changes was almost 20 hours long. I read the entire book back to front in seven hours.

That's a big difference.

then do you care to explain how the US Army reports that it has a 12% illiteracy rate in its soldiers and that number is up in comparison to the 80s? (granted they are working toward correcting the issue but it exists.)
The assumption that Illiterates cannot function in even modern society is just shear arrogance.

Because their definition of illiteracy is the one that is used in modern parlance by linguists (like... hey, what do you know, my wife) and not the one used in Palladium's books? The assumption that you know what you're talking about is just sheer arrogance. (I mean, i know scissors are arrogant, but srsly)

Illiteracy is the US (what the government standard is) doesn't mean you can't read anything. It means you're functionally illiterate. Functional illiterates can still read most common words, recognize all the letters of the alphabet, and read books and sentences if they really work through it. I have people i've LARPed with who were/are functionally illiterate - but they can still read (and, come to think of it, at least two of them were in the Army - both in jobs that require at least semi-literacy - mechanical repair).

In Palladium there's no such thing. There's either literacy, or you cant read a single letter.

And we're not talking about a modern military, we're talking about a sci-fi futuristic military with advanced Heads Up Displays inside your helmet, telemetry to read, IFF coding, and all sorts of information. We're talking about guys who pilot Power Armor who aren't required to be literate.

[Damian Magecraft]

And, for that matter, even the grunts these days have armor that "reads" for them.

Even my 5 year old son can read significantly faster than a computer reading a sentence out loud. That's my point. If i have a 500 word report to read, i can read that in about 20 seconds and comprehend it. If i wait for a computer to read it to me, it will take minutes, minutes that i likely dont have in a combat situation. And there are WAY too many ways hearing can be damaged or impaired that leave the eyes intact. A modern or sci-fi miltary force without full literacy is about as believable as the sun coming up in the south.

You keep heading back to the "well illiterate people can get X that reads for them/reads out loud to them" - that's great when you have the time to sit down at rest and enjoy an audio book. In any other situation, it's not viable at all. The audio book for the Dresden Files book Changes was almost 20 hours long. I read the entire book back to front in seven hours.

That's a big difference.

then do you care to explain how the US Army reports that it has a 12% illiteracy rate in its soldiers and that number is up in comparison to the 80s? (granted they are working toward correcting the issue but it exists.)
The assumption that Illiterates cannot function in even modern society is just shear arrogance.

Because their definition of illiteracy is the one that is used in modern parlance by linguists (like... hey, what do you know, my wife) and not the one used in Palladium's books? The assumption that you know what you're talking about is just sheer arrogance. (I mean, i know scissors are arrogant, but srsly)

Illiteracy is the US (what the government standard is) doesn't mean you can't read anything. It means you're functionally illiterate. Functional illiterates can still read most common words, recognize all the letters of the alphabet, and read books and sentences if they really work through it. I have people i've LARPed with who were/are functionally illiterate - but they can still read (and, come to think of it, at least two of them were in the Army - both in jobs that require at least semi-literacy - mechanical repair).

In Palladium there's no such thing. There's either literacy, or you cant read a single letter.

And we're not talking about a modern military, we're talking about a sci-fi futuristic military with advanced Heads Up Displays inside your helmet, telemetry to read, IFF coding, and all sorts of information. We're talking about guys who pilot Power Armor who aren't required to be literate.

well pardon me for not paying attention to my auto-correct...

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The Books tell us that the CS citizens are functionally illiterate.
The first point there for negates the second statement highlighted.

And then the RULES tell you that you are wrong. You're either literate, or you're incapable of reading a single letter.

There is no middle ground.

[Ravenwing]

And, for that matter, even the grunts these days have armor that "reads" for them.

Even my 5 year old son can read significantly faster than a computer reading a sentence out loud. That's my point. If i have a 500 word report to read, i can read that in about 20 seconds and comprehend it. If i wait for a computer to read it to me, it will take minutes, minutes that i likely dont have in a combat situation. And there are WAY too many ways hearing can be damaged or impaired that leave the eyes intact. A modern or sci-fi miltary force without full literacy is about as believable as the sun coming up in the south.

You keep heading back to the "well illiterate people can get X that reads for them/reads out loud to them" - that's great when you have the time to sit down at rest and enjoy an audio book. In any other situation, it's not viable at all. The audio book for the Dresden Files book Changes was almost 20 hours long. I read the entire book back to front in seven hours.

That's a big difference.

then do you care to explain how the US Army reports that it has a 12% illiteracy rate in its soldiers and that number is up in comparison to the 80s? (granted they are working toward correcting the issue but it exists.)
The assumption that Illiterates cannot function in even modern society is just shear arrogance.

Because their definition of illiteracy is the one that is used in modern parlance by linguists (like... hey, what do you know, my wife) and not the one used in Palladium's books? The assumption that you know what you're talking about is just sheer arrogance. (I mean, i know scissors are arrogant, but srsly)

Illiteracy is the US (what the government standard is) doesn't mean you can't read anything. It means you're functionally illiterate. Functional illiterates can still read most common words, recognize all the letters of the alphabet, and read books and sentences if they really work through it. I have people i've LARPed with who were/are functionally illiterate - but they can still read (and, come to think of it, at least two of them were in the Army - both in jobs that require at least semi-literacy - mechanical repair).

In Palladium there's no such thing. There's either literacy, or you cant read a single letter.

And we're not talking about a modern military, we're talking about a sci-fi futuristic military with advanced Heads Up Displays inside your helmet, telemetry to read, IFF coding, and all sorts of information. We're talking about guys who pilot Power Armor who aren't required to be literate.

Actually this is a very common misunderstanding about Palladium's Skill System.
Essentially the misunderstanding is that one can possess a skill without the requirements, but this isn't true. If a Skill is an occ skill, and an OCC has it, that OCC automatically gets all requirements for the skill, even if it's not listed. This means the PA Pilot who has Computer Operation, is automatically literate in his base language, since literacy is required for computer op. Now this rule doesn't apply if a character chooses a skill as an occ related or secondary skill. In that case the character must choose the requirements before choosing the skill.

[Damian Magecraft]

The Books tell us that the CS citizens are functionally illiterate.
The first point there for negates the second statement highlighted.

And then the RULES tell you that you are wrong. You're either literate, or you're incapable of reading a single letter.

There is no middle ground.

So you state that the settings canon must be ignored? The books tell us the CS is functionally illiterate, care to indulge me into why we should ignore the canon for your statements.

Actually he is ignoring a canon statement that if one does not have a skill in question then the relevant stat is used as the skills percentage.
since the average roll on 3d6 (stat rolls for humans) is 10 or 11...
the Average IQ (relevant stat for literacy) of CS citizens would be 10 or 11.
Therefore the average literacy skill of a CS citizen (for those without the formal skill) would be 10% or 11%...
I would say that qualifies as functionally illiterate.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Books tell us that the CS citizens are functionally illiterate.
The first point there for negates the second statement highlighted.

And then the RULES tell you that you are wrong. You're either literate, or you're incapable of reading a single letter.

There is no middle ground.

Care to quote the book and page number where it says that?

[Eashamahel]

You are right, notafraid2die, but that library is a 'secret'. Effectively it is, or rather was, the only known repository of pre-rifts information available to any citizen.

I think something often forgotten in this conversation is that the CS was not built on illiteracy, that it has been enforced upon the populace at a later time.

When the CS is founded, or rather, when Chi-Town emerges as a local power, we can assume that they were just like every other fledgling community, building on the bones of the past and emerging form the Dark Ages, and most were probably illiterate. As the CS forms, and especially around and right after the war against the FoM (12 PA, I think?), when Chi-town is becoming a real force, we can assume that their population has become significantly more literate, they have established libraries and universities, and their nation is growing.

After than, when Karl Prosek takes control, we THEN have the Chi-Town library 'fire' (I believe it was supposed ot be destroyed in a fire), which is actually the removal of the library to a hidden area. This goes along with the removal of of literacy in basic education, though universities remain for the upper class and technical education. Now that the country has been built, there is no need for a large literate group of unskilled labourers (which most of the population are).

[Mercdog]

IMHO, while there aren't any formal educational facilities for the general public, those who can afford to can hire a tutor (CS certified of course). If your gifted and lucky, you might just find a patron in the upper classes who can get you into a University. As far as the military, I'm sure when a hopeful citizen enlists there's some sort of basic aptitude tests to determine who would be best placed in the Engineering Corp or RCSG programs.

The CS (at least in my games) doesn't go around shooting scholars or scientists. At least, not unless they are teaching 'seditious lies' or using 'banned' material (though admittedly there is quite a broad spectrum of such material). It's better to make use of these people's talents than wastefully executing them.

[jedi078]

I don't buy the CS is illiterate line either. To me it's absurd. A more plausible way for the CS to control's it's people is through media, and the CS's ability to write history the way they wants. Truth be told it is those who won the war, or those in power who determine what goes int he history books.

[Damian Magecraft]

I don't buy the CS is illiterate line either. To me it's absurd. A more plausible way for the CS to control's it's people is through media, and the CS's ability to write history the way they wants. Truth be told it is those who won the war, or those in power who determine what goes int he history books.

and its even easier to control if they cannot read an alternative view.
Now how do you insure that they cannot read said alternative? easy... discourage reading and writing as a needed skill for the "unwashed masses."

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't buy the CS is illiterate line either. To me it's absurd. A more plausible way for the CS to control's it's people is through media, and the CS's ability to write history the way they wants. Truth be told it is those who won the war, or those in power who determine what goes int he history books.

Uh.. yeah. And the CS does that.

They just don't want any unearthed old books messing with the history that they wrote.

[jedi078]

For you naysayers and out there, take a look a the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. A country ruled by Totalitarian dictatorship which is passed down from father to chosen son. A country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their ruler is a god. A country which has the 4th largest military in the world. A country which has a 99% literacy rate.

[Damian Magecraft]

For you naysayers and out there, take a look a the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. A country ruled by Totalitarian dictatorship which is passed down from father to chosen son. A country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their ruler is a god. A country which has the 4th largest military in the world. A country which has a 99% literacy rate.

we are not the ones arguing against canon...
We are showing how it is possible.

[Eashamahel]

If that piece of information comes from NK, I would highly doubt it's authenticity.

I am intrigued as to why anyone is so worked up about the CS peasants not being able to read. It hardly seems like such a big deal, and amongst all the many, MANY things that are just SO screwy with the Rifts setting, seems to be about the smallest detail you could focus on.

I have met many people who can't read english (or french) here in Canada (first generation immigrants, typically older people), and function fine in this society.

[jedi078]

For you naysayers and out there, take a look a the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. A country ruled by Totalitarian dictatorship which is passed down from father to chosen son. A country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their ruler is a god. A country which has the 4th largest military in the world. A country which has a 99% literacy rate.

we are not the ones arguing against canon...
We are showing how it is possible.

I show a real life example of a country under the control of a totalitarian government (much like the CS is portrayed to be) that has a high rate of literacy and that's all you can say? 'Because that's what the book says'

If that is the extent of your argument for a mostly illiterate CS population, then your argument has failed.

[Nightmask]

For you naysayers and out there, take a look a the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. A country ruled by Totalitarian dictatorship which is passed down from father to chosen son. A country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their ruler is a god. A country which has the 4th largest military in the world. A country which has a 99% literacy rate.

we are not the ones arguing against canon...
We are showing how it is possible.

I show a real life example of a country under the control of a totalitarian government (much like the CS is portrayed to be) that has a high rate of literacy and that's all you can say? 'Because that's what the book says'

If that is the extent of your argument for a mostly illiterate CS population, then your argument has failed.

The RL example isn't relevant because just because it's totalitarian and supposedly highly literate the country is horribly low-tech for one, for another just because they're totalitarian and highly literate doesn't mean every totalitarian regime is or must be literate to function. If the book said the CS was almost completely literate and totalitarian it'd be just as valid as what the book actually says, that it's totalitarian and mostly illiterate. So your example fails because it doesn't exist as a proof that they must be literate, it's merely an example of one that happens to be literate.

[Giant2005]

For you naysayers and out there, take a look a the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. A country ruled by Totalitarian dictatorship which is passed down from father to chosen son. A country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their ruler is a god. A country which has the 4th largest military in the world. A country which has a 99% literacy rate.

we are not the ones arguing against canon...
We are showing how it is possible.

I show a real life example of a country under the control of a totalitarian government (much like the CS is portrayed to be) that has a high rate of literacy and that's all you can say? 'Because that's what the book says'

If that is the extent of your argument for a mostly illiterate CS population, then your argument has failed.

The RL example isn't relevant because just because it's totalitarian and supposedly highly literate the country is horribly low-tech for one, for another just because they're totalitarian and highly literate doesn't mean every totalitarian regime is or must be literate to function. If the book said the CS was almost completely literate and totalitarian it'd be just as valid as what the book actually says, that it's totalitarian and mostly illiterate. So your example fails because it doesn't exist as a proof that they must be literate, it's merely an example of one that happens to be literate.

I think his point was that they have managed to indoctrinate their country while preserving literacy, the example wasn't to prove the CS can't exist as they do, it is that they don't need to. The decision to limit the literacy of their subjects was completely unnecessary.

[Damian Magecraft]

For you naysayers and out there, take a look a the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. A country ruled by Totalitarian dictatorship which is passed down from father to chosen son. A country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their ruler is a god. A country which has the 4th largest military in the world. A country which has a 99% literacy rate.

we are not the ones arguing against canon...
We are showing how it is possible.

I show a real life example of a country under the control of a totalitarian government (much like the CS is portrayed to be) that has a high rate of literacy and that's all you can say? 'Because that's what the book says'

If that is the extent of your argument for a mostly illiterate CS population, then your argument has failed.

The problem here is we have literates arguing that it is impossible for illiterates to function in modern or future tech societies because they cannot fathom the idea of anyone being unable to read.

[Nightmask]

For you naysayers and out there, take a look a the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. A country ruled by Totalitarian dictatorship which is passed down from father to chosen son. A country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their ruler is a god. A country which has the 4th largest military in the world. A country which has a 99% literacy rate.

we are not the ones arguing against canon...
We are showing how it is possible.

I show a real life example of a country under the control of a totalitarian government (much like the CS is portrayed to be) that has a high rate of literacy and that's all you can say? 'Because that's what the book says'

If that is the extent of your argument for a mostly illiterate CS population, then your argument has failed.

The RL example isn't relevant because just because it's totalitarian and supposedly highly literate the country is horribly low-tech for one, for another just because they're totalitarian and highly literate doesn't mean every totalitarian regime is or must be literate to function. If the book said the CS was almost completely literate and totalitarian it'd be just as valid as what the book actually says, that it's totalitarian and mostly illiterate. So your example fails because it doesn't exist as a proof that they must be literate, it's merely an example of one that happens to be literate.

I think his point was that they have managed to indoctrinate their country while preserving literacy, the example wasn't to prove the CS can't exist as they do, it is that they don't need to. The decision to limit the literacy of their subjects was completely unnecessary.

So he's missing the point that literacy isn't necessary for the majority of the population? That and having them be illiterate makes it easier to keep them dependent as (contrary to some claims) 'books on tape' as it were still doesn't allow for people to have the same range of possibilities in learning and forming their own ideas as being literate does? Being literate IS power, as is being educated, which is why we see literacy and education being the targets of dictators and petty warlords.

[Shark_Force]

Actually he is ignoring a canon statement that if one does not have a skill in question then the relevant stat is used as the skills percentage.
since the average roll on 3d6 (stat rolls for humans) is 10 or 11...
the Average IQ (relevant stat for literacy) of CS citizens would be 10 or 11.
Therefore the average literacy skill of a CS citizen (for those without the formal skill) would be 10% or 11%...
I would say that qualifies as functionally illiterate.

almost (but not 100%) certain that's actually just a very common house rule people use because certain very basic skills are almost essential for the setting. for example, without basic math (which iirc not only includes addition and subtraction, but even the ability to count), how can you tell if you're paying the right amount when you buy things with credits?

[jedi078]

I think his point was that they have managed to indoctrinate their country while preserving literacy, the example wasn't to prove the CS can't exist as they do, it is that they don't need to. The decision to limit the literacy of their subjects was completely unnecessary.

So he's missing the point that literacy isn't necessary for the majority of the population? That and having them be illiterate makes it easier to keep them dependent as (contrary to some claims) 'books on tape' as it were still doesn't allow for people to have the same range of possibilities in learning and forming their own ideas as being literate does? Being literate IS power, as is being educated, which is why we see literacy and education being the targets of dictators and petty warlords.

Yes, my point is that you don't need to force your population to be illiterate. Fact is you need some level of literacy to be able to function as a member of society.

If you can't read how do you understand the concept of numbers and the basic arithmetic that goes with them when purchasing house hold goods for your survival? In this situation people will become literate through the necessities of life.

The only true way to control your population is through indoctrination. Thus there is no harm from the CS ensuring it's citizens are able to read and write.

[wyrmraker]

I think his point was that they have managed to indoctrinate their country while preserving literacy, the example wasn't to prove the CS can't exist as they do, it is that they don't need to. The decision to limit the literacy of their subjects was completely unnecessary.

So he's missing the point that literacy isn't necessary for the majority of the population? That and having them be illiterate makes it easier to keep them dependent as (contrary to some claims) 'books on tape' as it were still doesn't allow for people to have the same range of possibilities in learning and forming their own ideas as being literate does? Being literate IS power, as is being educated, which is why we see literacy and education being the targets of dictators and petty warlords.

Yes, my point is that you don't need to force your population to be illiterate. Fact is you need some level of literacy to be able to function as a member of society.

If you can't read how do you understand the concept of numbers and the basic arithmetic that goes with them when purchasing house hold goods for your survival? In this situation people will become literate through the necessities of life.

The only true way to control your population is through indoctrination. Thus there is no harm from the CS ensuring it's citizens are able to read and write.

While I can understand the last point you're trying to make, the fact is that the short-sightedness of poor writing makes it canon. Sad, but true in this theoretical post-modern era. An era and world riddled with ridiculous contradictions and ridiculous premises.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think his point was that they have managed to indoctrinate their country while preserving literacy, the example wasn't to prove the CS can't exist as they do, it is that they don't need to. The decision to limit the literacy of their subjects was completely unnecessary.

So he's missing the point that literacy isn't necessary for the majority of the population? That and having them be illiterate makes it easier to keep them dependent as (contrary to some claims) 'books on tape' as it were still doesn't allow for people to have the same range of possibilities in learning and forming their own ideas as being literate does? Being literate IS power, as is being educated, which is why we see literacy and education being the targets of dictators and petty warlords.

Yes, my point is that you don't need to force your population to be illiterate. Fact is you need some level of literacy to be able to function as a member of society.

If you can't read how do you understand the concept of numbers and the basic arithmetic that goes with them when purchasing house hold goods for your survival? In this situation people will become literate through the necessities of life.

The only true way to control your population is through indoctrination. Thus there is no harm from the CS ensuring it's citizens are able to read and write.

While I can understand the last point you're trying to make, the fact is that the short-sightedness of poor writing makes it canon. Sad, but true in this theoretical post-modern era. An era and world riddled with ridiculous contradictions and ridiculous premises.

Well said

[ShadowLogan]

Yes, my point is that you don't need to force your population to be illiterate. Fact is you need some level of literacy to be able to function as a member of society

I agree that you don't need to force the population to be illiterate, but what was the literacy rate in Medevil/ancient times? Where the illerates still able to function as a member of society? And if they are able to function as a member of society wouldn't that run counter to literacy is necessary to function?

You don't need to be literate to do (basic) math either (memorization of tables, verbal exchange). Counting itself may be a form of literacy, but a very limited one.

While the CS is more high tech than Medevil/Ancient times, they could use voice interfaces to operate computers and other high tech gear. In fact the CS EBAs have such a feature (CWC pg 99-100) mentioned and even go on to state 80% of grunts are illerate, 70% don't know the alphabet (last bit may or may not be talking about just grunts). The system mentioned in CWC is not in RMB or RUE.

[Killer Cyborg]

For you naysayers and out there, take a look a the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. A country ruled by Totalitarian dictatorship which is passed down from father to chosen son. A country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their ruler is a god. A country which has the 4th largest military in the world. A country which has a 99% literacy rate.

we are not the ones arguing against canon...
We are showing how it is possible.

I show a real life example of a country under the control of a totalitarian government (much like the CS is portrayed to be) that has a high rate of literacy and that's all you can say? 'Because that's what the book says'

If that is the extent of your argument for a mostly illiterate CS population, then your argument has failed.

North Korea was likely working with a population that was predominately literate to begin with.
Also, they don't have to worry about pre-rifts documents erasing or damaging their house of cards.

[Killer Cyborg]

Math is a separate skill from literacy.

[ShadowLogan]

Math is a separate skill from literacy.

Agree it is a separate skill from language based literacy. However, does the basic/advanced math skill allow one to read (and physically write) math equations? What about math written in another alphabet?

One could argue that without the language literacy, all math functions are done mentally, and it is only the literacy skill that allows one to read and write math in a language they are literate in.

[jedi078]

If you can't read how do you understand the concept of numbers and the basic arithmetic that goes with them when purchasing house hold goods for your survival? In this situation people will become literate through the necessities of life.

The only true way to control your population is through indoctrination. Thus there is no harm from the CS ensuring it's citizens are able to read and write.

While I can understand the last point you're trying to make, the fact is that the short-sightedness of poor writing makes it canon. Sad, but true in this theoretical post-modern era. An era and world riddled with ridiculous contradictions and ridiculous premises.

The truly sad things is that you have people posting here whose only reason for the CS to be illiterate is: 'Because it says so in the book'. They don't stop to think about it, they just blindly go with what the book says instead of interjecting some common sense as to how the CS would truly indoctrinate its citizens and ensure they have some level of basic education.

Math is a separate skill from literacy.

So your saying that literacy is not a prerequisite for 'Basic Math'. How would I be able to read a math book if I can't read? Last time I checked a math book has quite a bit of written explanations within it.

Just as a test, without reading the words and going just by what the numbers say, solve the following problem.

Joe has three sisters, a group of five D-bee's killed one of Joe's sisters and they ate her. A few days later Joe's daddy shot one of the D-bee's in the head and killed it. How many sisters does Joe still have? How many more D-bee's does Joe's Daddy have to kill if he wants to make sure Joe's sisters grow up to be mommies and help continue the survival of the human race by having babies?

But wait! There are no numbers! You can't read. You can't solve the problem. You can't do math because your illiterate. Even if someone read the problem to you out loud your going to have to have them read it to you several times in order to get all the pertinent information so you can figure out the problem. But with the capability to read, that is is posses the literacy skill you can read the problem your self, analyze it and determine that Joe has two sisters who still alive, and four vile d-bee's that Joe's daddy still needs to kill with his laser pistol.

These are the SAME kind of math problems being presented to children in North Korea today, although instead of D-bee they use 'Americans'. The children learn math, and get a little bit of indoctrination as well.