Perception Checks

[jade von delioch]

I really dislike the Perception checks that they introduced with Beyond the supernatural 2nd edition. Its really simple roll a d20, but does not take into account player skills like Prowl. Kind of bothersome.

So What I was thinking was basing a characters perception off of a character's Intelligence in the same way that charm is based on a character's M.E.
A character's base Perception is their I.Q. x 5%. So a average person should have around a 50% chance to notice anything. When a character makes a successful prowl roll, anyone trying to spot them would get +20% added to their roll. If the prowl roll was less than half the character's Target percentage, then anyone trying to spot them would get a +40% to their roll. (Example: if their character's skill is at 55% and they rolled 26% or less)
Items and spells that affect prowl and such would added an additional +5% to +10% on top of this.

I think this would work better

[Cinos]

Intelligence and perception are not directly related. This works just as well if you just make perception and prowl interact (every 5% success in a prowl = -1 to Perception to notice, or base perception check off the prowl check, as in If successful prowl check, perception check equals 8 + 1/5 of skill or whatever).

I would agree that perception was not ideally implemented into the system, and feels very afterthoughty (shocker.

[kiralon]

There are more ideas here.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=136014

[jade von delioch]

Its really the only stat that even comes close to relating. but yes, its not perfect

[drewkitty ~..~]

I really dislike the Perception checks that they introduced with Beyond the supernatural 2nd edition. Its really simple roll a d20, but does not take into account player skills like Prowl. Kind of bothersome.
...snip

You could always use the ones that were introduced in the NightSpawn main book.

"saving throws" are always on a d20. So I'm guessing that is way KS went with the D20 route.

Adding in prowl.... take the difference between the target number and the roll and divid by 5. add the result to the perc. target number. Make a successfull roll's differetnce a + number and a failed roll a - number.

[KillWatch]

here is what I did;
New Stat: Perception
Substat: Per x 5% = "Notice"
Agi or PP x 5% = Coordination, which you can use as a non skilled "sneak"
Created Spot skill, Spot v Prowl.
roll prowl. YOu succeed, The difference is used as a penalty towards the notice. The better you make it the harder it will be to spot you

[jade von delioch]

Usually what I do for unskilled rolls is, have the player roll as normal, but they only succeed if it is below 10%. On top of this, since they don't have the skill they don't get the xp for it.

[KillWatch]

huh,... I would give them a 1% for a successful roll. And I would probably make the % = the base stat. I mean an IQ of 15 is genius.

[Alrik Vas]

Specifically for Prowl, if the character using Prowl didn't succeed by at least half the value of their skill, others would get a chance to see them. (usually at -6 if they still succeeded, but not by half their value). If the Prowl roll failed, everyone would have to make a 12 or higher to spot or hear them.

At that point, i would give the Prowling character another chance to hide, if it made sense.

[MADMANMIKE]

I really dislike the Perception checks that they introduced with Beyond the supernatural 2nd edition. Its really simple roll a d20, but does not take into account player skills like Prowl. Kind of bothersome.
...snip

You could always use the ones that were introduced in the NightSpawn main book.

"saving throws" are always on a d20. So I'm guessing that is way KS went with the D20 route.

Adding in prowl.... take the difference between the target number and the roll and divid by 5. add the result to the perc. target number. Make a successfull roll's differetnce a + number and a failed roll a - number.

It's the same rules, just with a list of things that apply to each level of difficulty (And C.J. Carrella came up with the rule, not Kev).

I think it's a pretty simple thing to match a percentile roll vs. a D20 roll. If the Prowling character's skill roll is divided by 5, that's the number someone making a Perception check needs to beat (with I.Q. bonuses), unless the failed their Prowl roll, in which case they are automatically noticed..

Or you could just acknowledge that a successful Prowl roll is actually a successful Prowl roll... and if you don't have the Prowl skill you don't get to prowl...

[jade von delioch]

So after re-reading the skills and what they do, I have decided that perception will not come into play very often. Prowl for instance states that if the player succeeds the roll for the skill then they are not seen or heard. So that being said- I would rather keep the game simple (as it was designed) and not have to go against the stated rule of the skill by throwing in the possibility of the character being spotted even though they succeeded at the skill. And since everything else you would use perception for is covered by a series of skills (depending on what your looking for), there is no reason to really use it.

[KillWatch]

everything except trying to find someone sneaking up on you.

[Soldier of Od]

So after re-reading the skills and what they do, I have decided that perception will not come into play very often. Prowl for instance states that if the player succeeds the roll for the skill then they are not seen or heard. So that being said- I would rather keep the game simple (as it was designed) and not have to go against the stated rule of the skill by throwing in the possibility of the character being spotted even though they succeeded at the skill. And since everything else you would use perception for is covered by a series of skills (depending on what your looking for), there is no reason to really use it.

I've never used perception in connection with prowl, so I don't come across the conflict that you and others have mentioned. If you prowl, you prowl; no perception roll is needed. But I do use perception rolls often, to see whether PCs have noticed some detail of a scene or person - did they see the title of the document only half covered on the desk, did they notice that the noble is wearing the same medallion as the assassin that attacked them yesterday, do they notice the larmac eyeing them suspiciously from the balcony as they walk past, etc.

[Alrik Vas]

I notice all that stuff, but no one believes me because i can't make the MA rolls.

[jade von delioch]

everything except trying to find someone sneaking up on you.

That because it is already built into the prowl skill. If you noticed them sneaking up on you then they must have failed their roll.

[Alrik Vas]

everything except trying to find someone sneaking up on you.

That because it is already built into the prowl skill. If you noticed them sneaking up on you then they must have failed their roll.

I disagree with this. I think that someone can be terrible at sneaking, but may go unnoticed if those they are trying to avoid are distracted, looking in the wrong place, or just generally oblivious to the world around them.

You could turn that into a +% on Prowling, but i like it as giving a perception check if prowl was failed or not terribly well done.

[Levi]

I deal with perception checks in two ways, static and opposed. For both types of perception checks I use the IQ attribute score on the ME save psi chart. Few characters really have a bonus from this. I also usually give all characters a +1 for perception checks at levels 4/7/11/15. In many cases skills come into play and I convert the skill % to D20 bonus by dividing the skill by 5. So a prowl skill of 30% would be a perception bonus of +6.

Static checks are used for noticing things going on or picking up on clues in the environment or a situation. Often times I will have a character roll a perception check to see if they notice something is out of place or wrong. Then if the interpretation of what they notice isn’t obvious I have them roll on a skill to see if the character understands what they noticed. An example of this would be if the character rolls successfully on a perception check and notices that a knight’s shield has an unusual heraldry marking. Then they could roll their heraldry skill if they had it to figure why. Is it a forgery? Is the knight from another kingdom? In case like this I might use the skill % conversion to perception bonus to notice the marking, or I might use it and just have that one roll notice and settle success for the skill check. One roll instead of two.

Opposed perception checks are for cases where characters may be trying to counter each other, like concealment vs. detect concealment or prowl vs. a guard watching. In the first case, where each character has a skill that is opposing the other, they both convert the skill to a D20 bonus then add that bonus to a D20 roll with the highest total winning. In the case of the guard vs. someone trying to prowl by and the guard not having any real detection skills, the guard would basically have a straight die roll without bonus of skills. There may be environmental bonuses for him though. If it is very bright area with only way past, it will be harder for the character to get by, so I would give the guard a pretty good bonus of about a +8.

I actually really like using these methods for perception checks. It has really filled in massive gaps in the system. I have now adopted the opposed skill roll method to other skills like computer programing vs. hacking or demolitions vs. demolitions disposal.

[kiralon]

I prefer the oppossed method as well, otherwise you can end with a Rules Lawyer who says, RL-"they can't find me, i made my prowl roll". DM-"But its dead flat ground, thats well lit, with 100 guys watching the diamond in the centre". RL-"Doesnt matter, i made my prowl roll, i can sneak in there and take it and they won't see me, its says right here, if i make my prowl roll i am not seen nor heard". DM-"Within reason, within reason". RL-"Nothing about within reason in here, it specifically states that i can do it if i make my roll. There is nothing about it being harder or impossible to do, i just roll". DM-"Just shoot me"

If you have ever had the misfortune to DM one of these you have my condolences.

[jade von delioch]

I would say in this case that you would use common sense. If the whole area is well lite and there is no cover then it stands to reason that you can't sneak across the area. Now if all the guards had turned way, sure why not... But thats a clever useful action or idea if you could get all those guards to look the other way long enough for the player to sneak across the open field and well worth the 125 xp.

AS far as rules lawers go.... they suck and they all should be fired from catapults into a fiery chasm. You could also point out that as Gm you have final say in any situation- which is stated in the rules.. They hate when you throw rules into their faces.

[kiralon]

If only rules lawyers had common sense, well actually i agree with pratchett, people need uncommon sense, because it certainly doesn't seem to be common. For example, i had to argue that the way of the lance was only for when you're on the back of a horse, even though it doesn't specifically state that. Oh and the strength 221 phantom footman error, that was a fun argument. Unfortunately over the years i have found that if something leaves loopholes, they will be exploited until they bleed. I try not to use the because i said so argument because that oftens leads to bad feelings in the group, especially when im just as fallible as the others.

[zyanitevp]

If only rules lawyers had common sense, well actually i agree with pratchett, people need uncommon sense, because it certainly doesn't seem to be common.

Here here!

[Alrik Vas]

It's actually a super power in HU. Or should be.

[KillWatch]

Common Sense:
Minor Power
Range: Self
Allows the character to receive OOC information from the GM when he feels something is so obvious yet the players still seem to be clueless about the hints and the "obvious" direction the GM wants them to go

[kiralon]

lol

Helm of Brilliance 10 Watts (10 whats)
A magical helm that has 10 light bulbs around it that are brightly lit and supply the light of the equivalent amount of torches.
The helm can answer 10 what questions (e.g. what would happen if i walked through the door that says warning, angry dragon on other side)
Each time its used a bulb goes dim, when all the bulbs are dimmed its the helm stopa working.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Nightbane (the first palladium book with perception) had IQ add directly to perception. you simply looked at the bonus chart and gave perception based on IQ bonus at the same rate an ME bonus gave to psionics. so a 17 IQ was +1, a 30 IQ was +8

you can apply it to other games easially.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

In one of the games i'm in we use perception checks that we somehow figured out how to convert to a % roll. We use it as an all purpose spot/search skill to basically see if we notice/find things that aren't glaringly obvious or are hidden.

More times than not it's very annoying and fails miserably.

Example: The pc's have defeated a group of mercenaries and are searching their car for clues as to who they are and why they are after us.
Me, "I'm searching the drivers side of the car for clues or information, you search the passenger side"
GM: "Roll perception"
Me, "Crap I failed"
GM well then you didn't find anything.
Other Player, "I didn't make my roll either."
GM, you don't notice anything on your side of the car
Me Switch sides and try again?
GM Roll again
Me, curses! Failed again
Other player, Yes, I made it!
GM, "you find a wallet sitting in the drivers side cup holder an a briefcase in the back floorboard
Me, "wait what?! How did I miss something that obvious?"
GM, you failed your roll, that's how.

The way we've been using it, it is VERY faulty and prone to failure

Not to derail the thread, but is there a canon or fan created Search/Notice skill and can anyone direct me to it?

[Soldier of Od]

In one of the games i'm in we use perception checks that we somehow figured out how to convert to a % roll. We use it as an all purpose spot/search skill to basically see if we notice/find things that aren't glaringly obvious or are hidden.

More times than not it's very annoying and fails miserably.

Example: The pc's have defeated a group of mercenaries and are searching their car for clues as to who they are and why they are after us.
Me, "I'm searching the drivers side of the car for clues or information, you search the passenger side"
GM: "Roll perception"
Me, "Crap I failed"
GM well then you didn't find anything.
Other Player, "I didn't make my roll either."
GM, you don't notice anything on your side of the car
Me Switch sides and try again?
GM Roll again
Me, curses! Failed again
Other player, Yes, I made it!
GM, "you find a wallet sitting in the drivers side cup holder an a briefcase in the back floorboard
Me, "wait what?! How did I miss something that obvious?"
GM, you failed your roll, that's how.

The way we've been using it, it is VERY faulty and prone to failure

Not to derail the thread, but is there a canon or fan created Search/Notice skill and can anyone direct me to it?

I don't know about everyone else, but I think the problem there is that there is obviously no need to roll perception to find something in plain sight in a car you are actively searching. If the wallet or briefcase were amongst a bunch of other similar items and could be missed, or had been stuffed between the seats or something, then a perception roll might be appropriate.

[MADMANMIKE]

In one of the games i'm in we use perception checks that we somehow figured out how to convert to a % roll. We use it as an all purpose spot/search skill to basically see if we notice/find things that aren't glaringly obvious or are hidden.

More times than not it's very annoying and fails miserably.

Example: The pc's have defeated a group of mercenaries and are searching their car for clues as to who they are and why they are after us.
Me, "I'm searching the drivers side of the car for clues or information, you search the passenger side"
GM: "Roll perception"
Me, "Crap I failed"
GM well then you didn't find anything.
Other Player, "I didn't make my roll either."
GM, you don't notice anything on your side of the car
Me Switch sides and try again?
GM Roll again
Me, curses! Failed again
Other player, Yes, I made it!
GM, "you find a wallet sitting in the drivers side cup holder an a briefcase in the back floorboard
Me, "wait what?! How did I miss something that obvious?"
GM, you failed your roll, that's how.

The way we've been using it, it is VERY faulty and prone to failure

Not to derail the thread, but is there a canon or fan created Search/Notice skill and can anyone direct me to it?

I don't know about everyone else, but I think the problem there is that there is obviously no need to roll perception to find something in plain sight in a car you are actively searching. If the wallet or briefcase were amongst a bunch of other similar items and could be missed, or had been stuffed between the seats or something, then a perception roll might be appropriate.

Unless you're playing a tongue in cheek "Dude, where's my car?!" style.. I often enjoy those...

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I'll tell you what it is. It's that danged Dungeons and Dragons Online game. Every time I want to find something that isn't blatantly laid out in front of me I have to use my spot/search skill. It's tainted my PnP play style.

[MADMANMIKE]

I'll tell you what it is. It's that danged Dungeons and Dragons Online game. Every time I want to find something that isn't blatantly laid out in front of me I have to use my spot/search skill. It's tainted my PnP play style.

I'll take your word for it. I haven't played any online games since Diablo (1).. too many people I couldn't relate to that had no idea what a real Role Playing Game was..