It turns out M.D. IS rare. (Lets do the math!)

[Shark_Force]

the black market having power over splynncryth is silly. he runs an interdimensional marketplace. traffic from rifts earth is undoubtedly part of his clients, but not remotely all.

[calto40k]

Yeah I really doubt the black market has any sway over atlantis, Thats like saying the CS has sway of the UWW

[Akashic Soldier]

Yeah I really doubt the black market has any sway over atlantis, Thats like saying the CS has sway of the UWW

Rifts: Black Market - The Atlantean Connection, pg. 13-14.

[Shark_Force]

Yeah I really doubt the black market has any sway over atlantis, Thats like saying the CS has sway of the UWW

Rifts: Black Market - The Atlantean Connection, pg. 13-14.

i'm not saying nobody wrote it. i'm saying it's stupid, and they shouldn't have written it.

north america has a population of what, like, maybe a couple hundred million? i'll be extra-generous and call it a billion.

splynncryth owns multiple planets, and has a population including multiple billions of kydians alone, never mind the kittani or the various other races, and has a potential market of the entire megaverse.

the size of the north american market is simply not enough to exert control on splynncryth. the black market might sit there smugly patting themselves on the back and telling themselves how awesome they are for keeping the splugorth out of north america, but i suspect the *real* reason splynncryth doesn't strip north america bare for slaves is that he most likely has massive amounts of slaves. in all likelihood, splugorth slavers aren't looking for just any old slave stock... they're looking for something interesting enough to bother capturing.

if splynncryth wants hundreds of thousands of human slaves, he probably just has to step up his breeding programs. capturing humans is likely far more of a bother than it's worth... people raised to be slaves will be much more docile and controllable anyways. if you don't have something interesting to offer, like having received specialized training (and no, standard military isn't a big deal, you can mass-produce soldiers after all) or other value. i'm sure if north america had millions of small groups of trained spellcasters and master psychics travelling around, splynncryth would send constant raids, because training those people takes effort. or if suddenly free-range humans became a valuable bio-wizardry commodity, the way faeries are, once again, he'd probably go ahead and raid.

as it stands? what exactly does he stand to gain from heavy slave raiding? more of the same thing he's already got millions or billions of and doesn't have a serious need for more of? sifting through hundreds of low-value humans to catch a single valuable human?

he probably views the slave raids as more of a training exercise than anything else. splynncryth being controlled by the north american market is a joke. it's way too puny to have a significant impact on a guy who has an economy big enough to support billions of soldiers.

[Shark_Force]

I'd suggest that everyone's favorite resident Splurgoth might also realize that while he is certainly powerful enough to wipe out the black market in time, he isn't omnipotent, and while he might defeat the black market families, the reward may not be worth the effort and cost involved.

if by that you mean "he doesn't care", then sure. why would he? like i said, north america is at best a market of a few hundred million people. and most of them are people who, if they show up in his territory, are more likely to get killed and eaten than they are to buy anything.

he's got about as much reason to care about the north american market as you have to worry about a fly that comes and drinks your spilled root bear at a picnic. sure, it's root beer. sure, you could probably manage to clean up a lot of it and drink it if you really truly wanted to. but frankly, it's not worth your time. you're not that desperate for root beer, and there's plenty more of it in the bottle anyways, so why would you fight with the flies over the stuff that got spilled on the ground?

[Akashic Soldier]

I didn't say they could wipe out Atlantis and I certainly didn't say that they could topple his planet spanning Empire. They can just seriously mess up his business practices here and they've got "people/D-Bees/THINGS" that will guarantee that any major political leader is knocked off. As in, they have how much money you would need to pay to make sure Prosek died. As in, HE WILL be killed. Sure, its an absurd amount of money but they've got guys/teams/groups that will do it.

The problem that Splynncryth has is that UNLIKE the Black Market families people KNOW where he lives. He is a public figure like Jabba from Starwars and the Megaverse is FULL of things that are GOOD at killing things. Sure, it wouldn't be easy... but nor is Splynncryth an untouchable deity... he just tells people he is.

Also, he's smart. So he knows that if he doesn't mess with them than they won't mess with him and if he only takes X many slaves and doesn't nab anyone important (or if he does and just gives them back with a modest bribe) than the status quo is maintained and no one needs to block trade routs, carpet bomb elite clientele, or hire transdiemntional super-assassins from The Planet of The Badasses.

[Shark_Force]

I didn't say they could wipe out Atlantis and I certainly didn't say that they could topple his planet spanning Empire. They can just seriously mess up his business practices here and they've got "people/D-Bees/THINGS" that will guarantee that any major political leader is knocked off. As in, they have how much money you would need to pay to make sure Prosek died. As in, HE WILL be killed. Sure, its an absurd amount of money but they've got guys/teams/groups that will do it.

it's not about wiping out atlantis, or using military might. it's a simple matter of economic power.

Splynncryth is the ruler of a nation with untold billions of people and sells stuff to the entire megaverse.

the black market sells to probably a few hundred million tops (i don't own the book, but that presumes they sell more mundane (ie non-weapon/armor/robot), not-necessarily-illegal stuff (obtained or distributed illegally) that the average person would want as well, otherwise their market is vastly smaller (albeit their target market at least does happen to be reasonably wealthy).

the amount of trade that occurs in all of north america in a year is probably lucky to be as much as gets traded in atlantis in a day.

and if it was that inexpensive to have a splugorth killed, then splynncryth's rivals would have done him in long ago, because if the economic empire of some puny little nation was able to afford it, the economic empire of another splugorth would be able to pay for it out of the petty cash account (and if you think the black market leaders know the right people to call up but another splugorth won't, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that).

not to mention the fact that splynncryth is thousands of years old and has the experience that comes from spending thousands of years in every form of economic "combat" imaginable and is a genius to begin with.

if splynncryth wanted to battle it out for such a tiny amount of trade, he could. and he would probably replace every one of those people. and hey, if the population was to spontaneously get 1,000 times as much, he might actually care enough to do it. as it stands, if splynncryth wants the amount of money he could get by taking over the north america markets, he sends a few conservators to dig around in the couch for loose change.

[Akashic Soldier]

the black market sells to probably a few hundred million tops.

They control more than 80% of the businesses (legit or otherwise) in North America. There are other "crime families" on other countries that they are allied with that have "about" the same amount of control over other countries.

Some of these crime families date back to Chaos Earth, actually its implied some of them are Pre-Rifts. When the cataclysm happened they took over everything. One of the major leaders is an ancient Dragon (and no one knows). I was surprised to find out how powerful an influential they are too but they are. That is also why most places take "Black Market credits" as an acceptable form of currency.

And considering a single body chop shop/machine factory earns a MINIMUM of 12,000,000 credits per week in profit after MAXIMUM possible expenses (again Black Market) I am pretty sure that they control a great deal more money than "a few hundred million."

Remember, they own and control 80% of ALL businesses in North America alone. As I said before they "won" and they're a big part of the reason there is culture/society at all. They have been the invisible shadow puppeteers engineering the world for... well... CENTURIES. They CHOOSE who lives and dies because they CHOOSE who got Mega-Damage weapons and supplies when Nema wasn't there to protect them... and for the most part they still do. They're also one of the only organizations though which D-Bees can earn a "honest" living so they have generations of D-Bees indebted to them.

As for why they haven't killed off Splynncryth or the Emperor, its all about profit and its all about maintaining control. Right now, everything is just the way they like it. They don't hold enough of the cards that they control everything but they control just enough to control what is important and no one can challenge them. Not seriously. You shut down a few places start railing for change... then all of a sudden you get fired, or the CS show up and plant evidence on you and then do you for conspiring with [enemy of the week]. You **** with their business and they cut off food supplies or rift your house (and/or town) to hell. Of course, again, this is assuming you're WORTH a second look.

[Shark_Force]

the black market sells to probably a few hundred million tops.

They control more than 80% of the businesses (legit or otherwise) in North America. There are other "crime families" on other countries that they are allied with that have "about" the same amount of control over other countries.

Some of these crime families date back to Chaos Earth, actually its implied some of them are Pre-Rifts. When the cataclysm happened they took over everything. One of the major leaders is an ancient Dragon (and no one knows). I was surprised to find out how powerful an influential they are too but they are. That is also why most places take "Black Market credits" as an acceptable form of currency.

And considering a single body chop shop/machine factory earns a MINIMUM of 12,000,000 credits per week in profit after MAXIMUM possible expenses (again Black Market) I am pretty sure that they control a great deal more money than "a few hundred million."

Remember, they own and control 80% of ALL businesses in North America alone. As I said before they "won" and they're a big part of the reason there is culture/society at all. They have been the invisible shadow puppeteers engineering the world for... well... CENTURIES. They CHOOSE who lives and dies because they CHOOSE who got Mega-Damage weapons and supplies when Nema wasn't there to protect them... and for the most part they still do. They're also one of the only organizations though which D-Bees can earn a "honest" living so they have generations of D-Bees indebted to them.

As for why they haven't killed off Splynncryth or the Emperor, its all about profit and its all about maintaining control. Right now, everything is just the way they like it. They don't hold enough of the cards that they control everything but they control just enough to control what is important and no one can challenge them. Not seriously. You shut down a few places start railing for change... then all of a sudden you get fired, or the CS show up and plant evidence on you and then do you for conspiring with [enemy of the week]. You **** with their business and they cut off food supplies or rift your house (and/or town) to hell. Of course, again, this is assuming you're WORTH a second look.

i didn't say the black market has a few hundred million in sales. i said they sell to a few hundred million. splynncryth sells to untold trillions of customers.

also, a body chop shop making a minimum profit of 12,000,000 per week is stupid. like, mind-bogglingly stupid. assuming the parts and labour for a single full-conversion 'borg cost absolutely nothing (which is obviously not the case), that would be several full combat 'borgs per week.

if there was that kind of money to be had so trivially easily, the cyber-doc would not be starting with a maximum of 24,000 credits. their starting money would be more like 4d6 x 1,000,000 credits.

that said, if we're going to sit here pretending like that's a reasonable figure, and that body chop-shops are a guaranteed way of being able to retire comfortably for the rest of your life after a single week of work, then remember that splynncryth also sells bionics and cybernetics, and also sells various technological weapons and armour, but more advanced ones. not to mention that he also sells bio-wizardry augmentations and weapons, and if he feels like it he can go out and kill some minor god for the lolz and turn them into a rune weapon (to sell). plus all the other various industries he controls.

if the black market has X amount of money, then splynncryth should have X times several thousand or more. the black market simply does not have the ability to sell to as many people as splynncryth does. they don't have as good of a product as he does. they don't have the variety of product that he does. seriously. this is like the entire wal-mart corporation against a local corner store.

seriously. splynncryth's food bills are probably more than the black market's entire revenue. taking over the north american market probably just means that now he can give his troops double rations, if he cared to do so.

[eliakon]

The main issue with the black market is its just like the republicans, or holms martch. Its 'lets retroactivly change continuity to support some outlandish, improbable idea that cant be supported by anything less than pure handwave, but sounds kewl' So suddenly all of north america is a criminal organization (80% of all businesses? really?) and they control the entire economy....but some how cant legitimze themselves. They control the CS economy....but they cant get the CS to stop chasing them or cutting into their profits? I am not saying that its not how the book is written, I am saying that the book though is badly thought out, illogical, and a retcon bat of the highest order

[Akashic Soldier]

The main issue with the black market is its just like the republicans, or holms martch. Its 'lets retroactivly change continuity to support some outlandish, improbable idea that cant be supported by anything less than pure handwave, but sounds kewl' So suddenly all of north america is a criminal organization (80% of all businesses? really?) and they control the entire economy....but some how cant legitimze themselves. They control the CS economy....but they cant get the CS to stop chasing them or cutting into their profits? I am not saying that its not how the book is written, I am saying that the book though is badly thought out, illogical, and a retcon bat of the highest order

I think people should stop jumping to conclusions before they actually read the book. I can't tell you how to think but its not a retcon, nothing has actually changed. Its just they control pretty much the entire economy and its explained why and how and its also pretty much how the REAL WORLD works too. Except we have certain laws to prevent what the Black Market has done, without those laws...

As for Splynncryth, yes he commands an incredible amount of wealth and power and he is an awesome NPC but he can only command so much power on Rifts Earth so it doesn't matter how many worlds he has at his command because he CANNOT command more power on Rifts Earth for a few reasons. Likewise, nowhere have I read that he kills Gods for the lolz to make rune weapons. As I understood it rune weapons were very rare and exotic and I think there is ONE God in all of Palladium that has been turned into a rune weapon and isnt she in Palladium Fantasy?

As for the price dispute, if you go to the R:SB1r and look at the price of repairs and take into account that they're repairing 'Bots and 'Borgs and selling new parts in addition to new cybernetics than yes it is possible. Also, the Cyber Doc isn't filthy rich at character creation because he doesn't start OWNING his own practice because if he did than he would become rich quickly. This isn't a hole in the wall with "the cyber doc is in" hung over the window. They're complex factories/facilities with hi-tech machine repair facilities. Think about it and look at how much damage you take in the average fight. You say take 20 M.D.C. and that equates to about 24,000 credits and typically you'll be paying to get more than one person's great repaired plus whatever you have salvage from your victory. It all adds up.

[eliakon]

No I am sorry, saying suddenly that EIGHTY PERCENT of all businesses are part of the black market is a bit of a retcon. You just gave 4/5ths of the CS economy to the black market! Is it 80% of wilks and northern gun too? Now lets not forget all the mom and pop shops, so they either 1) controll even the mom and pop hotdog stands or 2) they control MORE of the big guys to offset the little fish they dont control.
As for the splugorth, they have RUNE FACTORIES!

But hey chalk most of this up to the 'dramatic sounding stuff sounds better than being logical' that is a common problem in Palladium. We have empires that rule huge portions of galaxies....with militarys that are supposed to number 'in the millions'?? Or the Splugorth are 'the only people to posses rune knowlegde and they are secret' no wait 'the asgardian dwarves and olympian cyclops do, as well as all sorts of craft gods' no wait 'its got a whole GUILD in the 3gs' oh and now its common knowlege that the splugorth do it.....it takes a god or the like to make one....but we mass produce them its all hyperbole and random 'it sounds kewl' over 'lets think this out logially and make sure it all makes internally consistant sense'

[Akashic Soldier]

I don't think its counter intuitive. No one KNOWS they run 80% of all business. Theyre an invisible financial puppeteers and no... the Splugorth do not have rune factories, at least in nothing I have read. Each rune weapon is a unique weapon created for a very specific purpose at great sacrifice to its creator. Yes, the Splugorth can make them and have the secrets to their creation but they're no where on an assembly line.

I am wrong please give me a book and quote and I'll order it off the site this arvo because I certainly do not own it.

[Shark_Force]

no, 12,000,000 profit in a week is just silly no matter how you look at it. consider that it costs the cyber-doc 1,000 credits to repair 1 MDC. that's not their profit... that's the cost to do it.

furthermore, you didn't say a factory can make 12,000,000 per week. you specifically said a cyber chop-shop. and it's still beside the point, because splynncryth still has more factories, he still out-produces the black market, and he still out-sells the black market.

"he can't because he won't" doesn't mean the black market is doing crap to stop him. splynncryth doesn't want to control rifts earth because:

1) there's no benefit to it. he's got all the benefits already. he doesn't need to control the rest, all he really needs is a base of operations that is accessible all across the megaverse, which he has. it's not the land, it's the ease of access, so unless he suddenly discovers a need for a planet-sized marketplace, there's no profit in taking over more than he has (frankly, he's already got large portions of the land he controls dedicated to personal amusement anyways... that's how little need he has for more land)

2) controlling territory costs resources, which costs money. if he controlled the entire planet, he would need guards at every point in the entire planet, because someone could come in anywhere.

he doesn't take over more because even at his current size, dimensional raiders exist, and this is without spreading resources across the entire planet. it's not the black market that's stopping him. it's the millions, billions, or trillions of sentient beings that are looking for a weakness in his defences to exploit combined with the lack of a reason to care about taking over any more territory in the first place. in situations where it's worthwhile (eg hunting faeries in... you guessed it... north america... which the black market hasn't done *squat* to prevent), he will go right ahead.

and look it up, the splugorth can make rune weapons, they occasionally sell greater/greatest rune weapons, and those require beings that are the equivalent to gods (not necessarily thoth or zurvan, but gods nonetheless) to create. they particularly enjoy creating new good-aligned rune weapons because it involves imprisoning and enslaving a powerful force of good for eternity (or until someone gets it to a scathach druid with the right kind of cauldron, at least).

[Akashic Soldier]

no, 12,000,000 profit in a week is just silly no matter how you look at it. consider that it costs the cyber-doc 1,000 credits to repair 1 MDC. that's not their profit... that's the cost to do it.

*raises his eye brow*

Are you correcting me about a book you haven't even read yet?

*blinks vacantly*

I guess this is the internet.

furthermore, you didn't say a factory can make 12,000,000 per week. you specifically said a cyber chop-shop. and it's still beside the point, because splynncryth still has more factories, he still out-produces the black market, and he still out-sells the black market.

*shakes his head*

Maybe transdimentionally but not on Rifts Earth. Book reference please? I don't NORMALLY ask for such things but you are claiming something I have NEVER read and I've read Atlantis and Splynn Dimensional Market cover to cover. They're two of my favorite books.

"he can't because he won't"

He can't because other super-powers will come down on him the same way they would the Naunri (thats in Naruni Wave 2). If anything, he has to keep his belt tighter because he has so many MORE people with their eye (or eyes) on him making sure he is not in a position where he can gain absolute control over the planet.

doesn't mean the black market is doing crap to stop him. splynncryth doesn't want to control rifts earth because:

1) there's no benefit to it. he's got all the benefits already. he doesn't need to control the rest, all he really needs is a base of operations that is accessible all across the megaverse, which he has. it's not the land, it's the ease of access, so unless he suddenly discovers a need for a planet-sized marketplace, there's no profit in taking over more than he has (frankly, he's already got large portions of the land he controls dedicated to personal amusement anyways... that's how little need he has for more land)

2) controlling territory costs resources, which costs money. if he controlled the entire planet, he would need guards at every point in the entire planet, because someone could come in anywhere.

he doesn't take over more because even at his current size, dimensional raiders exist, and this is without spreading resources across the entire planet. it's not the black market that's stopping him. it's the millions, billions, or trillions of sentient beings that are looking for a weakness in his defences to exploit combined with the lack of a reason to care about taking over any more territory in the first place. in situations where it's worthwhile (eg hunting faeries in... you guessed it... north america... which the black market hasn't done *squat* to prevent), he will go right ahead.

You'll find you are underestimating the Black Market and its influence.

and look it up, the splugorth can make rune weapons, they occasionally sell greater/greatest rune weapons, and those require beings that are the equivalent to gods (not necessarily thoth or zurvan, but gods nonetheless) to create. they particularly enjoy creating new good-aligned rune weapons because it involves imprisoning and enslaving a powerful force of good for eternity (or until someone gets it to a scathach druid with the right kind of cauldron, at least).

I am not debating that. I am debating that they mass produce them in factories or that such things are EASY by any standard. Look, clearly you disagree (and that is fine). If you don't like it, don't run it that way but I at least ask that you think it through and give it a look and try looking at it from a different point of view. Because, by sticking to what you are saying either means...

1. I am an idiot.
2. You know something I do not.
3. You are emotionally invested in your answer and cannot see the situation without personal bias.

I know I don't care if the Black Market succeed or fail. I am just recounting the setting as I understand it... and as I understand it... there are no rune factories, the Black Market had control over North America at least ONE HUNDRED years before The Splugorth took over Atlantis and Atlantis has most of its trade tied up and handled ON the content of Atlantis in the dimensional markets.

If I am wrong, I will happily say "Yo guys, sorry!" no questions asked and then next time someone brings this up I can be all like "Hey man, I thought the same thing but as it turns out [waffle, waffle, waffle] and you can read a bit about it in [book title here]."

As for the costing 1000 to do the repair, lets just assume that is correct (though the way the businesses are run the component pieces are paid for so that is labor but that is neither here or there), if he can do the repair of 1 M.D. for 1,000 credits... what does he charge? Lets say its an average business so its a 75% mark up to cover labor and the fact that operators/Cyber Doctors are RARE on Rifts Earth. (Considerably less than 30% of the total population). So that one M.D. repair earns the company 750 credits profit.

Now lets say that an adventuring crew comes in. Last week my group had a little bit of a scuffle with some Raptors and a giant monster buffalo. It was a random encounter. Across the board we took... 194 points of M.D.C. between the entire party, including the damages to my truck. (Yes, I keep track of this stuff. )

So after everything (being conservative) that 145,500 credits in profit. Now, I'll point out, this was a VERY light combat and we hardly took any damage and MOST of our characters are psychics and magic users that use magic and psychic force fields instead of M.D. armor. That is approximately 82 customers in a week that took MINIMAL damage from a single encounter. Still sound a bit large? Maybe, but that does not include the sales of vehicles or new cybernetics/bionics, that is just from ONE light skirmish with raptors and a buffalo monster that managed to bang up two of the wheels on my Road Hammer and scratch a few members of our group.

We've taken SIGNIFICANTLY heavier damage and if we were a mercenary company or just had a 'Borg in our group or a Robot Pilot (or if we were returning from an adventure that had multiple encounters) we could be getting charged SIGNIFICANTLY more VERY easily. Do you see how (assuming the store has a good reputation and customer base) how that could add up quickly? Don't forget they're doing full Bionic Conversions, buying/selling/trading Cybernetics and repairing battle damaged 'Borgs.

It all adds up. This isn't just for a hole in the wall shop (those specifically only earn HALF as much) this is for a professional business, but still. Bionics and M.D. repairs are incredibly profitable. I mean, heck, they make a few hundred credits each time someone wants bigger perkier breasts (they're in the bionics sourcebook) or cosmetic cybernetics (which are VERY fashionable on Rifts Earth).

[Comrade Corsarius]

If they run 80% of business then that's one thing in my mind sorted out: Rifts has completely normal, 21st century equivalent communication and distribution networks (albeit physical, technological, magical, psionic, or a combination of all the above).

Communication is the key to running any sort of empire. The lower the communication ability, the lower the efficiency of the top to give commands or gather information. Therefore, at the very least, the black market has continent-wide communication channels. Impressive in a place where we've been told (re the flight in rifts thread) that such communication lines are effectively impossible.

[tmikesecrist3]

on this issue I have long thought about ether doing away with mdc in my rifts game (not really viable becouse most md weapons dont do as much damages as sdc weapons) or Changing the ratio of md to sd form 100:1 to say 10:1 waking sd weapons and lower tech more viable but still give an advantge to md tech and weapons. that makes that little 1d6 wilk's target pistol, do 1d6 md or 1d6X10... thats sdc rifle range damager there in a pistol! almost heavy MG damage. so say a ,45 does 4d6 or 5d6 that's a max of 24 or 30 sd.... so if you shat an md target and rolled max damage that would be 2.4 (always round down) so 2, to 3 points of md... not great but you get 10-20 guys with rifles standing behind earthen work cover(keep in mind that in collation war campaign it says under fortification in the new skills... that enough earth will provide protection form md weapons, with that in mind any one can have md defincave earth works around there town or village ..... with even sdc bolt action hunting rifle.... well then you see... and it gets worse if there armed with smgs. or assault rifles and then throw in some mechinguns like the ma deuce (m-2 .50 cal mg... or the M-60....... well then.....

But yeah I have been trying to think of ways to make lower tech bases seem more viable for a lot of reasions... becouse on I think humans can use a lot of enganuty to servives and even the odds aginst a more advansed or more powerful foe

[Shark_Force]

how much it costs a cyber-doc to repair MDC is listed in RUE, under the class itself. likewise for the operator, who actually pays more (although i would argue that in the right circumstances, he can do some extra work to get his materials at half price, which brings it down to less, but still not terribly cheap). i don't need to read the black market book to know that, because it's already listed right in the core rule book for the entire setting.

as to rarity, that is true... but it's also true that their customers are rare. you're operating under the assumption that there are 82 adventuring groups per week (edit: per facility) getting into skirmishes and taking significant damage i suppose? i don't see that being likely at all. i also find it likely (edit: unlikely)that most adventuring groups consider 194 points of MDC to be light damage. i especially doubt there are money (edit: many) who would bother fighting those enemies at all: there's no profit in it. this is why you have a scout who goes ahead, reports "hey, there's a giant black hole that's going to suck up all of our money and make it disappear forever, we should probably go around it", and then you never get into that fight in the first place, because it is a gigantic waste of money unless someone has put a large bounty on the creatures. even if they have, most likely you're going to take as many steps to reduce damage taken as possible, such as if you have even a single person who can fly, you just fly overhead and shoot them from complete safety (assuming you care to use up ammunition on them in the first place, since as i already pointed out there's probably no profit to be had in this fight).

even if there is a 75% profit margin involved (which i doubt), it sure as hell isn't going to be happening 82 times per week. (edit: per facility) and again, i'm fairly certain you have a different perspective on what is "very light combat" than most people, because to me, taking 194 damage in an unnecessary fight against a few enemies that have no ranged combat abilities and are likely significantly slower than any vehicles you might own (assuming none of your vehicles have even limited flight and speed becomes irrelevant) means you just got wtfpwned.

nor do i see it likely that people are going to show up in mass quantities looking for bionic upgrades and such. i strongly suspect the vast majority of a cyber-doc's time is spent installing gyro-compasses in people who are tired of getting lost and such, quite frankly. and even those are going to be comparatively rare... the average person in the rifts setting has zero cybernetic or bionic implants, and at best minimal MDC armour or MD weapons (which even those who do have those weapons and armour will start by doing everything in their power to *not* use them, because using them costs a lot of money). and even that minimal MDC armour and MD weaponry is likely only something you see in the wilderness... in a city, i doubt you see many people with that tech at all (the city might own quite a few, but then, they probably have their own repair and maintenance technicians).

as to proof that splynncryth has factories that produce cybernetics and equipment... what exactly do you think the kittani do, exactly? not all kittani tech is up for sale, but they do sell a lot of stuff, and the stuff they sell is still more advanced than what the north american market has to offer (with the exception of naruni enterprises, of course). (edit: if you need specific examples, consider that they supplied the gargoyle empire and still supply the phoenix empire, and that's just major contracts we know about. it's not like every shop that sells their stuff will be listed, any more than every shop that sells any other product in atlantis is listed).

also, i never claimed splynncryth mass-produces rune weapons (though i'm not certain if it's difficult or not, i don't own any books that actually describe the difficulty level). my claim was that he can go around hunting minor gods (or equivalent) and turning them into rune weapons, then selling them if he feels like it. you want to argue about the other stuff, take it up with the person who said it, don't lay it on me.

also, even if a hole in the wall shop only earns half as much, that's STILL enough that you can retire comfortably after a single week of work. no wonder cyber-docs and operators are so rare. apparently once they've set up shop for a weak, they've got so much money they can retire.

[Akashic Soldier]

as to rarity, that is true... but it's also true that their customers are rare. you're operating under the assumption that there are 82 adventuring groups per week (edit: per facility) getting into skirmishes and taking significant damage i suppose?

Minor damage. Not significant damage. The average "group", Well, our group has 6 members so 6 potential damage targets or 7 if you count the Road Hammer Transport. So that is approximately 24 points of damage each. On average that is the equivalent of sustaining average damage from three 3D6 M.D. attacks. It could be as few as two. So it is hardly significant damage.

i especially doubt there are money (edit: many) who would bother fighting those enemies at all: there's no profit in it.

The reason I know how much damage we took and how much it costs is because I am playing a Troll that is obsessed with making profit and so I know exactly what you mean. In fact that skirmish is going to cost me more than 100,000 credits in repairs alone. So I know exactly what you mean. However, when you are driving through the wilderness and then you run into "something" and it messes up your truck than most people's first reaction is to get out and find out what it was and if the truck was damaged. After all, it might have been a person. Unfortunately for us, it was a giant whale-eyed buffalo monster that we bought down pretty easily thanks to some tactical spell casting and a Wilk's Blinder grenade... but it STILL able to inflict minor damage. Then, the Fire Raptor pack tailing it to scavenge its kills attacked us for its body and they did minor damage too.

It all adds up and again, these were not even armed soldiers/bandits and that is a pretty bog-standard/average wilderness encounter.

this is why you have a scout who goes ahead, reports "hey, there's a giant black hole that's going to suck up all of our money and make it disappear forever, we should probably go around it", and then you never get into that fight in the first place, because it is a gigantic waste of money unless someone has put a large bounty on the creatures.

Yes in a perfect world we would have had a Wilderness Scout but it we were lost in the wilderness, didn't have one, and were trying to find our way back to civilization. Even with a wilderness scout there are failed rolls. In the Dinosaur Swamp game I run each week we had TWO scout-based characters and the first wilderness survival/Land Navigation rolls they made were last week. Before that, pretty much every roll was a screw up. Sure, it was unlikely and unlucky... but it happens and the "average" "GOOD scout isnt going to have more than 70% at first level with the average being closer to 60%.

such as if you have even a single person who can fly, you just fly overhead and shoot them from complete safety

Yes, in a perfect world... but we were in heavily forested area and the entire combat happened in about 45 seconds. Then we were ambushed (with all but two of us surprised) and that skirmish lasted about 30 seconds.

even if there is a 75% profit margin involved (which i doubt), it sure as hell isn't going to be happening 82 times per week. (edit: per facility) and again, i'm fairly certain you have a different perspective on what is "very light combat" than most people, because to me, taking 194 damage in an unnecessary fight against a few enemies that have no ranged combat abilities and are likely significantly slower than any vehicles you might own (assuming none of your vehicles have even limited flight and speed becomes irrelevant) means you just got wtfpwned.

If one guy took it, I'd agree, but divided up over 7 targets... its not that big of a deal. My Long-coat that I had from the first adventure was destroyed (but it only had 13 M.D.C. left) and I was sad to see it go. Otherwise, we got pinged lightly. Nothing worth mentioning. The Road Hammer's trailer lost one wheel and the other was damaged by the rhino buffalo and that is where the MAJORITY of the damage came from and that happened when it rammed the trailer from behind before we knew it was there.

the average person in the rifts setting has zero cybernetic or bionic implants,

You haven't read the bionics sourcebook have you? Cybernetics is HIGHLY fashionable. That store has City Rats coming in EVERYDAY getting fins, new hair, horns. Cybernetics in Rifts is the equivalent of tattoos and piercings today. Bionics ISN'T but Cybernetics is. My brother worked a tattoo parlor and they would get on average 6 "big" customers a day (not including small sales of accessories), sometimes more on the weekends. If its the same (and we're in a small town not a Mega-City) than there is an average of 12,000 credits a day in profit just from knickknacks. That is JUST the average from cosmetic cyber... not even including the custom made cybernetic limbs and eyes (which are the big money) in cosmetic cyber.

and at best minimal MDC armour

As was established earlier in this thread by using the town creation rules M.D.C. armor is NOT that rare but M.D. weapons are. If you are a member of the local militia or an important farmer, than its likely your home town government has given you a suit of light M.D.C. armor. They on average have a fair few suits just laying around most of the time. Admittedly, they are likely reserved for law enforcement and such a lot of the time but those are the guys being shot at. More to the point, if the business is in a mega-city or one of the major stop off points like the Colorado Baronies it is a trade capitol and hundreds of adventurers are moving through it at any one time. Plenty of opportunities for business.

(which even those who do have those weapons and armour will start by doing everything in their power to *not* use them, because using them costs a lot of money)

I agree but accidents happen and rifts is often a hostile and dangerous world.

i doubt you see many people with that tech at all (the city might own quite a few, but then, they probably have their own repair and maintenance technicians).

Just because a town has a mechanic doesn't mean its FREE to fix your car just because you live in the same town. Same principle.

as to proof that splynncryth has factories that produce cybernetics and equipment... what exactly do you think the kittani do, exactly? not all kittani tech is up for sale, but they do sell a lot of stuff, and the stuff they sell is still more advanced than what the north american market has to offer (with the exception of naruni enterprises, of course). (edit: if you need specific examples, consider that they supplied the gargoyle empire and still supply the phoenix empire, and that's just major contracts we know about. it's not like every shop that sells their stuff will be listed, any more than every shop that sells any other product in atlantis is listed).

But these are not RUNE factories where they mass produce rune weapons. Likewise, it is safe to assume that MOST of these facilities are off-world on Kittani planets and their product is shipped through. Especially since Splynncryth personally prefers bio-wizardry over Kittani toys. Not that he does not utilize them or sell them, simply they are not his preferred trade currency.

also, i never claimed splynncryth mass-produces rune weapons (though i'm not certain if it's difficult or not, i don't own any books that actually describe the difficulty level).

You said "rune factories" and spoke about rune weapons like they were a commodity to be bought and sold willy nilly. Also, the books do describe its difficulty. It is spoken about in a few places... like the Dwarves you mentioned and a few places in Palladium Fantasy. Heck, its even mentioned again in Rifts Japan of all places.

my claim was that he can go around hunting minor gods (or equivalent) and turning them into rune weapons, then selling them if he feels like it. you want to argue about the other stuff, take it up with the person who said it, don't lay it on me.

He can also lather himself in honey and force Emperor Prosek to sing his praises and lick him clean. It doesn't mean he does on a regular basis. Most Gods would take such a trespass as a personal assault on themselves and respond accordingly. Maybe not because they cared about their demigod children... but because to allow such a thing to occur is to show they had no power to stop it. Likewise, even then he can succeed. Its just not profitable or easy and not something he does on a whim or just "because he feels like it." He's way smarter than that.

also, even if a hole in the wall shop only earns half as much, that's STILL enough that you can retire comfortably after a single week of work. no wonder cyber-docs and operators are so rare. apparently once they've set up shop for a weak, they've got so much money they can retire.

Yup and THE AVERAGE member of the Black Market owns and operates between 1 and 3 of these businesses, with higher ranking members controlling many more. Now are you starting to comprehend what you are up against? They're an invisible army of Mega Corporations that punish the failure of your subordinates with death. They're THE BEST of the criminal underworld.

And yeah, as I mentioned earlier. The "hole in the wall" business still makes a ton of money because they can afford to and YES a Cyber Doc, assuming he can raise the money to start the business can sit back and make a lot of money by doing very little. However, he needs employees, he needs the starting nest egg, he needs to be able to deal with angry customers with augmented/robotic P.S. if something goes pear-shaped. These typically are not the guys you play in MOST games because MOST games require travel. Likewise, why would anyone want to play a character that can retire after one game session?

Why'd you even bother introducing him to the game?

If you do however, congrats! He lives a peaceful life running his business and is either absorbed by the Black Market, killed, or is one of the rare ew operations that can continue operating without being bought out, muscled out, or financially crushed.

[Shark_Force]

also, i never claimed splynncryth mass-produces rune weapons (though i'm not certain if it's difficult or not, i don't own any books that actually describe the difficulty level).

You said "rune factories" and spoke about rune weapons like they were a commodity to be bought and sold willy nilly. Also, the books do describe its difficulty. It is spoken about in a few places... like the Dwarves you mentioned and a few places in Palladium Fantasy. Heck, its even mentioned again in Rifts Japan of all places.

no. I didn't say so much as a single word about rune factories. read what i said. someone else brought up rune factories. you want gripe about it, go gripe at the right person, thanks.

all I said is that splynncryth can even turn rune weapons into a revenue stream, and a rather profitable one at that (not every rune weapon needs to be a greater or greatest one, after all... with that being said, it does explicitly tell us that splugorth do in fact turn powerful beings into rune weapons because they find it amusing. that doesn't say he's terribly worried about deific retribution to me. now, they're not going to do this to a god every day or anything like that. but it's an option.

as to the cybernetics shop... ok, so what exactly does it take to set up a place that the cyber-doc can't do? is the cyber-doc unable to install bionics or cybernetics? basically everything that shop can do, the cyber-doc most likely can do fresh out of chargen.

so why can't the cyber-doc make those completely ludicrous amounts of money? and heck, even if he can, how exactly does your assumed 12,000 net profit a day (which i also still consider absurd unless you're talking about some place with like 100+ employees all installing cybernetics, of which there are probably like 2 in all of north america if that) from steady customers (note: city rats are not remotely everyone, and in fact last i checked unauthorized cybernetics in the CS were illegal, so expect a lot fewer customers in CS-controlled cities, and absolutely no clinics with 100 cyber-docs all in one place) translate to 12,000,000 per week? that amount is just silly. they might have *gross* profit that high (even that sounds incredibly suspicious to me), but actually coming up with that much net profit per week? no. not a chance. that kind of money just doesn't get made so easily. not by anyone. the cyber-doc is essentially a selfish SOB who does what (s)he does out of greed for the most part (obviously, there will be exceptions, but mostly if you want a compassionate doctor, that's the body fixer). they're not going to sit there taking a paycheck of 200 credits a week while their boss is raking in a 12,000,000 credit paycheck every week for their work. if there's a 12,000,000 credit payday every week, you can bet the cyber-doc is going to be wanting to take their piece of the pie, and they're not going to just settle for less than 1% of it.

just because someone gets a little enthusiastic and writes something incredibly foolish without thinking about it doesn't make it good writing, or good rules. this is rifts, not 4th edition D&D. if i want books that are intended to be usable by zombies, i'd play a different game. and when i encounter something that is so completely absurdly laughable, it gets ignored, because that's part of the rules too.

if the books tell me something that the setting has essentially already designated to be ridiculous, then there is a conflict in the books, and i will resolve it by choosing the least ridiculous information. and the least ridiculous information in this case is the information that tells me the north american black market doesn't have anything to do with keeping splynncryth out of north america because they simply lack the resources to push him around on account of him having thousands of times more of every resource (including experience), and that people who own a simple body chop-shop don't get to retire for the rest of their life in comfort after a single week of operations.

[Akashic Soldier]

also, i never claimed splynncryth mass-produces rune weapons (though i'm not certain if it's difficult or not, i don't own any books that actually describe the difficulty level).

You said "rune factories" and spoke about rune weapons like they were a commodity to be bought and sold willy nilly. Also, the books do describe its difficulty. It is spoken about in a few places... like the Dwarves you mentioned and a few places in Palladium Fantasy. Heck, its even mentioned again in Rifts Japan of all places.

no. I didn't say so much as a single word about rune factories. read what i said. someone else brought up rune factories. you want gripe about it, go gripe at the right person, thanks.

all I said is that splynncryth can even turn rune weapons into a revenue stream, and a rather profitable one at that (not every rune weapon needs to be a greater or greatest one, after all... with that being said, it does explicitly tell us that splugorth do in fact turn powerful beings into rune weapons because they find it amusing. that doesn't say he's terribly worried about deific retribution to me. now, they're not going to do this to a god every day or anything like that. but it's an option.

as to the cybernetics shop... ok, so what exactly does it take to set up a place that the cyber-doc can't do? is the cyber-doc unable to install bionics or cybernetics? basically everything that shop can do, the cyber-doc most likely can do fresh out of chargen.

so why can't the cyber-doc make those completely ludicrous amounts of money? and heck, even if he can, how exactly does your assumed 12,000 net profit a day (which i also still consider absurd unless you're talking about some place with like 100+ employees all installing cybernetics, of which there are probably like 2 in all of north america if that) from steady customers (note: city rats are not remotely everyone, and in fact last i checked unauthorized cybernetics in the CS were illegal, so expect a lot fewer customers in CS-controlled cities, and absolutely no clinics with 100 cyber-docs all in one place) translate to 12,000,000 per week? that amount is just silly. they might have *gross* profit that high (even that sounds incredibly suspicious to me), but actually coming up with that much net profit per week? no. not a chance. that kind of money just doesn't get made so easily. not by anyone. the cyber-doc is essentially a selfish SOB who does what (s)he does out of greed for the most part (obviously, there will be exceptions, but mostly if you want a compassionate doctor, that's the body fixer). they're not going to sit there taking a paycheck of 200 credits a week while their boss is raking in a 12,000,000 credit paycheck every week for their work. if there's a 12,000,000 credit payday every week, you can bet the cyber-doc is going to be wanting to take their piece of the pie, and they're not going to just settle for less than 1% of it.

just because someone gets a little enthusiastic and writes something incredibly foolish without thinking about it doesn't make it good writing, or good rules. this is rifts, not 4th edition D&D. if i want books that are intended to be usable by zombies, i'd play a different game. and when i encounter something that is so completely absurdly laughable, it gets ignored, because that's part of the rules too.

if the books tell me something that the setting has essentially already designated to be ridiculous, then there is a conflict in the books, and i will resolve it by choosing the least ridiculous information. and the least ridiculous information in this case is the information that tells me the north american black market doesn't have anything to do with keeping splynncryth out of north america because they simply lack the resources to push him around on account of him having thousands of times more of every resource (including experience), and that people who own a simple body chop-shop don't get to retire for the rest of their life in comfort after a single week of operations.

Bionics are illegal within the CS. Cosmetic cybernetics aren't, although they are frowned upon (just like piercings and tattoos in a lot of places today). As for the rest, I'll tackle that later. Busy right now but just wanted you to know I'd read it. Also, sorry if it was someone else that mentioned rune factories. If that was true that was an honest mistake.

I will say though, getting set up is like... 8D6 x 1,000,000 credits (I believe?). Its like a month of operational cost or something like that.

I'll have to check it out when I've got a little more time. However, you are "essentially" saying something is ridiculous or a conflict when frankly, its not. You haven't even read the book so maybe instead of saying "it must be crap" you should just give it a chance and read the book first. This is turning into an argument and I don't have time to argue with opinions about how things SHOULD or SHOULD not be based off personal opinion. I made this thread to talk about canon and numbers.

[calto40k]

uhm ok got my copy of rifts black market... actually had it sitting in the grab bag box until giftmas eve, read the atlantean connection and not once does it even remotely say anything that would validate your comments about atlantis and the black market, The only thing that was close was the bm underground railroad for runaway slaves and the bm's willingness to deal in current atlantean tech

[DhAkael]

uhm ok got my copy of rifts black market... actually had it sitting in the grab bag box until giftmas eve, read the atlantean connection and not once does it even remotely say anything that would validate your comments about atlantis and the black market, The only thing that was close was the bm underground railroad for runaway slaves and the bm's willingness to deal in current atlantean tech

TRUTH!
Fact checking...it's a good thing.

[Akashic Soldier]

If I feel motivated enough and feel this is a genuine inquiry instead of some sort of pissing contest I'll supply quotes and page numbers in the morning. If.

Or everyone can just think I am an opinionated moron who cannot do basic math or read, and has no idea what he is talking about. At this point, I really couldn't care to be honest. I'm sick of every time I open my mouth to comment on something it turning into a "contest" or a battle of egos. I have better ways to spend my time than arguing with people. I come here to have fun and talk about the books I own and laugh and have a good time. Not "win" and rake up points. Not for some malicious agenda. I am not going to be "goaded" into retaliating. I am just too busy to care.

[Killer Cyborg]

If I feel motivated enough and feel this is a genuine inquiry instead of some sort of pissing contest I'll supply quotes and page numbers in the morning. If.

Or everyone can just think I am an opinionated moron who cannot do basic math or read, and has no idea what he is talking about.

It seems like a common reaction from you, when people claim that you are incorrect about something, is to say that this must mean that they think that you're stupid and/or uneducated.
Which is not only inaccurate, because there are a many layers and levels between "a person is wrong" and "a person is a complete idiot," but also has some disturbing implications for every time that YOU claim that somebody else is wrong.

[eliakon]

I don't think its counter intuitive. No one KNOWS they run 80% of all business. Theyre an invisible financial puppeteers and no... the Splugorth do not have rune factories, at least in nothing I have read. Each rune weapon is a unique weapon created for a very specific purpose at great sacrifice to its creator. Yes, the Splugorth can make them and have the secrets to their creation but they're no where on an assembly line.

I am wrong please give me a book and quote and I'll order it off the site this arvo because I certainly do not own it.

that would be pg 166 of Pantheons "Also, Splugorth raidrs have been known to kidnap Asgardian Dwarves to force them to work and teach in their rune factories."

[Mack]

Please keep this to a Rifts discussion.

[Akashic Soldier]

that would be pg 166 of Pantheons "Also, Splugorth raidrs have been known to kidnap Asgardian Dwarves to force them to work and teach in their rune factories."

Now THATS more like it. Now I have the tools to admit I was wrong. I will go check that out ASAP. Thank you Eliakon.

This means they can (with the assistance of others) create rune weapons and devices! However, the creation of rune weapons takes months, often years, requires exotic components, incredible amounts of P.P.E., and the sacrifice of a living essence

Are there any other mention of Rune Factories anywhere? Because they might be using them for rune magic and not just to create rune weapons since the Dwarf's ability says that it can take months or years. We can assume its the former because its a factory condition but that is still months of work for a single weapon with an entire team working on it. I am not attempting to be contrary but there are a lot of uses for rune magic (see the Diabolorist) so do we "know" that these factories are mass-producing rune weapons and if so is there any sort of example as to how many they can produce at a time?

After that lets back to the original point of this thread though;
Canon information about the availability/rarity of Mega-Damage on Rifts Earth.

[Galroth]

that would be pg 166 of Pantheons "Also, Splugorth raidrs have been known to kidnap Asgardian Dwarves to force them to work and teach in their rune factories."

Now THATS more like it. Now I have the tools to admit I was wrong. I will go check that out ASAP. Thank you Eliakon.

This means they can (with the assistance of others) create rune weapons and devices! However, the creation of rune weapons takes months, often years, requires exotic components, incredible amounts of P.P.E., and the sacrifice of a living essence

Are there any other mention of Rune Factories anywhere? Because they might be using them for rune magic and not just to create rune weapons since the Dwarf's ability says that it can take months or years. We can assume its the former because its a factory condition but that is still months of work for a single weapon with an entire team working on it. I am not attempting to be contrary but there are a lot of uses for rune magic (see the Diabolorist) so do we "know" that these factories are mass-producing rune weapons and if so is there any sort of example as to how many they can produce at a time?

After that lets back to the original point of this thread though;
Canon information about the availability/rarity of Mega-Damage on Rifts Earth.

A Rune Master can't use Diabolist magic or create wards as far as I know. Their only ability is creating rune items (statues, armor and weapons) and some of them can perform Bio-wizardry as well.

[Akashic Soldier]

A Rune Master can't use Diabolist magic or create wards as far as I know. Their only ability is creating rune items (statues, armor and weapons) and some of them can perform Bio-wizardry as well.

That is very interesting. *ponders*

Where is the Rune Master O.C.C. from?

[Galroth]

A Rune Master can't use Diabolist magic or create wards as far as I know. Their only ability is creating rune items (statues, armor and weapons) and some of them can perform Bio-wizardry as well.

That is very interesting. *ponders*

Where is the Rune Master O.C.C. from?

It's described a little bit under the Asgardian Dwarf RCC in Pantheons of the Megaverse.

[Akashic Soldier]

It's described a little bit under the Asgardian Dwarf RCC in Pantheons of the Megaverse.

How'd I miss that?! Or I might have read it and not realized I was reading into an O.C.C.

I'll suss it out again now. I really should be doing prep for my game tomorrow night though. I still have a couple of NPCs to stat out.

Thanks again man. In a ****** up way I love being wrong because its an opportunity to learn new things.

[calto40k]

Please keep this to a Rifts discussion.

and this is the reason I am sticking to trying to figure out the facts and not namecalling... Heck we have facebook for that Also noticed the text about pa needing to be seasoned to get tw enhancements, I'm going to assume that is only for PA that have been built prior to the TW process, unlike the TW PA from the merc books, or the mirage from the black market book

[DhAkael]

Please keep this to a Rifts discussion.

and this is the reason I am sticking to trying to figure out the facts and not namecalling... Heck we have facebook for that Also noticed the text about pa needing to be seasoned to get tw enhancements, I'm going to assume that is only for PA that have been built prior to the TW process, unlike the TW PA from the merc books, or the mirage from the black market book

Or the TW power armour (which sadly got cutting room floored in R:UE ) from the 1st. edition Rifts Main Book.
THAT ommission was a sin before the eyes of Gygax (hallowed be his dice).
-ahem-
Anyways, do continue pleez.

[calto40k]

fortunately a few of my older editions survived the house fire back in 2000, while going through comic books and cards that somehow survived i found my main book the original sourcebook 1 and my copy of mechanoids, so time to look up that other tw pa

[Akashic Soldier]

Have you seen Rifts Australia? They make it sound as if MD weapons a practically non-existent in the outback.

Yup, as an Australian I am very familiar with Rifts Australia. Love it too!

[Shark_Force]

fortunately a few of my older editions survived the house fire back in 2000, while going through comic books and cards that somehow survived i found my main book the original sourcebook 1 and my copy of mechanoids, so time to look up that other tw pa

you can also get the original RMB as a PDF still.

[calto40k]

yup i just like the smoke damaged edges of this one for some odd reason

[DhAkael]

yup i just like the smoke damaged edges of this one for some odd reason

Nostolgia; mine (RMB) is practically embalmed.

[Comrade Corsarius]

yup i just like the smoke damaged edges of this one for some odd reason

Nostolgia; mine (RMB) is practically embalmed.

Corsarius' Personal Rule of Gaming:
1) A gaming book is not considered used until there are at least three unidentifiable stains on its pages.
2) A character sheet is not considered used until the paper where 'HP' or 'MDC' exists is nearly worn through by an eraser, and it is marked by at least one coffee ring.

[calto40k]

yup i just like the smoke damaged edges of this one for some odd reason

Nostolgia; mine (RMB) is practically embalmed.

Corsarius' Personal Rule of Gaming:
1) A gaming book is not considered used until there are at least three unidentifiable stains on its pages.
2) A character sheet is not considered used until the paper where 'HP' or 'MDC' exists is nearly worn through by an eraser, and it is marked by at least one coffee ring.

Agreed wholeheartedly

[calto40k]

also we know the 80% only applies to body/chop shops(medical variety) and cyberdoc establishments

[calto40k]

The Black Market and Shores of the Dead have become my toilet reading material, akashic did you go back over the atlantean connection and see what I am talking about? Just wondering and not trying to make a contest out of this just want you to have the correct info for your players and other groups that dont have the book yet, If you choose to have it differently in your game that's completely understood and part of the fun with the palladium systems, you can make them into whatever you want that works for you