Minion War in Nightbane

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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Witchcraft »

My Minion War Campaign has an adventure DIRECTLY inclusive of the Nightbane universe -- more specifically the Nightlands -- MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL...HOLY S**T!!!!!!
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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It's possible, anything is possible in the megaverse after all, but I've always considered the demons in NB different from the demons in DB Hades. You might need to do some explaining that way but if you want to do it, go right ahead.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Warwolf »

Interestingly, Carl mentioned before why he didn't include Nightbane in the Minion War series. If you remember, in Nightlands it talks about how the Red Flame Demons tried to invade the Nightlands a long while before the current timeline. In response the Nightlords banded together and collapsed their home dimension. Yep, a whole DIMENSION. The demons and Deevils don't want any part of that nastiness, so they leave Nightbane Earth alone... Kinda makes things look bleak for our heroes when hell doesn't even want to tangle with what their fighting, huh? :lol:
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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I apologize for not responding sooner. Because players of my game read these boards I'm going to answer you in a PM
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Witchcraft wrote:I apologize for not responding sooner. Because players of my game read these boards I'm going to answer you in a PM

Aww...
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Absolem wrote:
Glistam wrote:
Witchcraft wrote:I apologize for not responding sooner. Because players of my game read these boards I'm going to answer you in a PM

Aww...

We just discussed what is already in the published books. Do you have any ideas? We can discuss, if you are willing...

I'm actually one of the players he mentioned, that's what the "Aww..." was for when he decided to PM you. :lol:
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Absolem wrote:Has anyone have any thoughts concerning an adventure where the Minion Wars makes a foray nito the Nightbane universe? As there are demons in LA, and Devil City, I wondered if that was possible or probable. Any thoughts? Thanks


It'd kinda dramatically change the feel of Nightbane since the canon backstory and metaplot have got absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the Palladium Megaverse, and it feels like the Nightbane setting is only officially part of the Megaverse because there's a design rule saying all the game lines have to be, and that this isn't really a comfortable fit for what was clearly intended to be an isolated standalone setting. Just as an example that's relevant to your crossover idea, the demons in the Nightbane setting aren't actually from Hades or Dyval, and I'm pretty sure that their home dimension of the Netherworld isn't known or talked about in the rest of the megaverse.

Basically if you're running a transdimensional campaign and you just want to pop into the Nightbane setting for a change of scenery then everything'll be fine and you won't have to worry too much about how to make it work. But if you're dropping a Minion Wars event into a Nightbane campaign, you're basically turning it into a crossover game and making some hella big changes, so you'll want to figure out the best way of fitting everything together.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

Just a quick comment for those who say that the demons from Nightbane are unconnected to the rest of the Palladium Megaverse - it does say specifically that Helldancer, the demon lord in league with Lilith, is loyal to Modeus (Lord of Hades).

Having said that, I do like to think that the demons presented in Nightlands are from a different plane, as they are not presented in any of the other Palladium lines. Perhaps they are from another part of 'The Netherworld' over which Modeus has influence?
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Soldier of Od wrote:Just a quick comment for those who say that the demons from Nightbane are unconnected to the rest of the Palladium Megaverse - it does say specifically that Helldancer, the demon lord in league with Lilith, is loyal to Modeus (Lord of Hades).

Having said that, I do like to think that the demons presented in Nightlands are from a different plane, as they are not presented in any of the other Palladium lines. Perhaps they are from another part of 'The Netherworld' over which Modeus has influence?


Just to note, nothing said that the demon lord that Lillith was negotiating with was actually one of the Red Flame Demons. as near as I can tell, the Nightbane dimension has it's own sub-dimension of demons that may or may not be related to the settings history in some way.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Rallan »

Absolem wrote:Please read page 128 of "Nightbane Worldbook 2:Nightlands". Dyval and Hades are part of the "Netherworld". They are just not where ALL demons and deevals come from.


And yet nothing from Dyval or Hades appears in the Nightbane setting, and nothing from the Netherworld appears in any other Palladium setting. Nightbane books occasionally have crossover notes buried in the GM's section, but it would take a really weird reading of the text to suggest that Nightbane is meant as anything other than a standalone setting. Not just because there's no canon storyline links between Nightbane and everything else, but because a lot of the GM stuff on optional crossovers deliberately makes it hard to bring stuff from other settings into Nightbane.

Like I said earlier, Nightbane Earth is said to exist in the Megaverse because all the games have to be that way, not because it makes sense for the Nightbane setting. And when you look at the setting it looks ridiculously isolated. Nobody else ever seems to have heard of the Dark or the Nightlords or the Nightbane or the Guardians or the Reshapers or the Lost Race or the Formless Ones. None of the factions in the last sentence have been mentioned anywhere else as interdimensional explorer/conquestor factions. None of the races in the Astral Plane in the Nightbane setting seem to crop up anywhere else, or vice versa. Demons from Hades and Dyval are unknown in the Nightbane setting, and demons from the Netherworld are unknown everywhere else. Nobody anywhere else has heard of the Lost Race or the Formless Ones. Dimension-travelling races like the True Atlanteans, Dragons, Dimensional Raiders, Brodkil, minions of Atlantis, and so on and so forth haven't discovered the Nightbane setting. And so on and so forth.

It doesn't take a genius to figure that Nightbane was meant to be a completely self-contained standalone setting that only got a token "Part Of The Palladium Megaverse(TM)!" addendum for the same reason that System Failure did.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

Absolem wrote:
Rallan wrote:
Absolem wrote:Please read page 128 of "Nightbane Worldbook 2:Nightlands". Dyval and Hades are part of the "Netherworld". They are just not where ALL demons and deevals come from.


And yet nothing from Dyval or Hades appears in the Nightbane setting, and nothing from the Netherworld appears in any other Palladium setting. Nightbane books occasionally have crossover notes buried in the GM's section, but it would take a really weird reading of the text to suggest that Nightbane is meant as anything other than a standalone setting. Not just because there's no canon storyline links between Nightbane and everything else, but because a lot of the GM stuff on optional crossovers deliberately makes it hard to bring stuff from other settings into Nightbane.

Like I said earlier, Nightbane Earth is said to exist in the Megaverse because all the games have to be that way, not because it makes sense for the Nightbane setting. And when you look at the setting it looks ridiculously isolated. Nobody else ever seems to have heard of the Dark or the Nightlords or the Nightbane or the Guardians or the Reshapers or the Lost Race or the Formless Ones. None of the factions in the last sentence have been mentioned anywhere else as interdimensional explorer/conquestor factions. None of the races in the Astral Plane in the Nightbane setting seem to crop up anywhere else, or vice versa. Demons from Hades and Dyval are unknown in the Nightbane setting, and demons from the Netherworld are unknown everywhere else. Nobody anywhere else has heard of the Lost Race or the Formless Ones. Dimension-travelling races like the True Atlanteans, Dragons, Dimensional Raiders, Brodkil, minions of Atlantis, and so on and so forth haven't discovered the Nightbane setting. And so on and so forth.

It doesn't take a genius to figure that Nightbane was meant to be a completely self-contained standalone setting that only got a token "Part Of The Palladium Megaverse(TM)!" addendum for the same reason that System Failure did.


Then explain why there is a book called Dark Conversions with Nightbane/Nightlords conversions for Rifts, or was it done just because? System Failure is not presently being supported. Nightbane is. If you have an issue, say that. Not opinion on unsupported information. It isnt there because it hasnt been written. Dont be a fanboy. Its unbecoming to be that closed minded. Whether it is thought prudent or not, I was looking for assistance on an idea. I am sorry only one other saw it feasible. Creativity is what will keep pb moving and succeeding.


Also got the Nightbane adventure in the HU 2nd GM Guide (pg. 104).
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Rallan wrote:
Absolem wrote:Please read page 128 of "Nightbane Worldbook 2:Nightlands". Dyval and Hades are part of the "Netherworld". They are just not where ALL demons and deevals come from.


And yet nothing from Dyval or Hades appears in the Nightbane setting, and nothing from the Netherworld appears in any other Palladium setting. Nightbane books occasionally have crossover notes buried in the GM's section, but it would take a really weird reading of the text to suggest that Nightbane is meant as anything other than a standalone setting. Not just because there's no canon storyline links between Nightbane and everything else, but because a lot of the GM stuff on optional crossovers deliberately makes it hard to bring stuff from other settings into Nightbane.

Like I said earlier, Nightbane Earth is said to exist in the Megaverse because all the games have to be that way, not because it makes sense for the Nightbane setting. And when you look at the setting it looks ridiculously isolated. Nobody else ever seems to have heard of the Dark or the Nightlords or the Nightbane or the Guardians or the Reshapers or the Lost Race or the Formless Ones. None of the factions in the last sentence have been mentioned anywhere else as interdimensional explorer/conquestor factions. None of the races in the Astral Plane in the Nightbane setting seem to crop up anywhere else, or vice versa. Demons from Hades and Dyval are unknown in the Nightbane setting, and demons from the Netherworld are unknown everywhere else. Nobody anywhere else has heard of the Lost Race or the Formless Ones. Dimension-travelling races like the True Atlanteans, Dragons, Dimensional Raiders, Brodkil, minions of Atlantis, and so on and so forth haven't discovered the Nightbane setting. And so on and so forth.

It doesn't take a genius to figure that Nightbane was meant to be a completely self-contained standalone setting that only got a token "Part Of The Palladium Megaverse(TM)!" addendum for the same reason that System Failure did.


There's actually a nightbane sorcerrer (explicitly from the Nightbane setting) as a prominent public member of the Kingsdale mage guild and ruling council: although it does say most people have no idea what kind of being she is. I think it's the only example, though.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Absolem wrote:Then explain why there is a book called Dark Conversions with Nightbane/Nightlords conversions for Rifts, or was it done just because?


Because PB figured that lots of people would want to play a nightbane in Rifts, and PB needed to justify having split the original CB1 into two books.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Rappanui wrote:yes, according to CJ, the Nightlords were the Elder Sorcerors from when the atlanteans were young. Except that they discovered the dark, and slew their own civilization to reach their godlike status.


the bit about the formless ones and banes is what he intended.


Shadows of light went it's own way because they wanted to tie in the gods of light and dark.


Did he ever say anything about Shadow Warlocks?
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Rappanui wrote:Kevin hassal wrote through the glass darkly, So I'd ask what he intended for them.
CJ did not have anything to do with that book, and none of his other projects had living magic, that' wasn't part of his cosmology.


Shadow Warlocks are from Nightlands, which was definatly written by CJ.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Soldier of Od wrote:Just a quick comment for those who say that the demons from Nightbane are unconnected to the rest of the Palladium Megaverse - it does say specifically that Helldancer, the demon lord in league with Lilith, is loyal to Modeus (Lord of Hades).
The question though, is WHICH Modeus?

Is it the Demon Lord in Dragons and Gods living in the Hades that is the dark copy of the Palladium World?

Or is it the alien intelligence "Asmodeus" (he's called this in Pantheons, see Xolotl and the mention of he and Quetzalcoatl hurting Mictla) from CB1 impersonating him in Rifts Earth? Much like Mephisto also has an AI impersonator.

I'd probably rule with it being the Rifts version or some other version that's messing with NB, as opposed to the D+G one involved in the Minion War.

The fact we have at least 2 different sets of Hades beings (for example, Rifts Mictla is male, PF Mictla is female) and PF's Hades itself being a dark mirror of the Palladium world brings a lot of thought forth regarding 'Nightlands' and how they work, and what dopplegangers are.

What happens if a Nightbane uses 'mirrorwalk' on any planet besides Nightbane Earth, for example?
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Tor »

Not sure what you mean about fanboyitis here. While the (As)modeus in CB1 is indeed (like the other Mephisto) a poser, he's a pretty powerful one. He has psionics, for example, whereas the PalladiuModeus doesn't have any. The CB1 male Mictla is also pretty intense compared to PalladiuMictla. Check out the attacks per melee for example :)

I don't understand what you mean about fearmongering either. The Minion War takes place all over the Megaverse. There's a spell in Rifts England (Temporal) called ID self. That spell is potentially more frightening than the Doppleganger spell in terms of what it means regarding multiple universes, and multiple versions of the same characters.

That there's more than 1 Mictla or Modeus isn't at all shocking, and it actually makes the Minion War between (THIS) Hades and Dyval all the more complex and intriguing.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Tor »

Absolem wrote:What does THIS Hades and Dyval mean?
It means whichever versions of Hades and Dyval are having the minion war. There is more than one Hades and Dyval, just like there's more than one version of pretty much any reality. This is established in both Rifts England and prior to that in Transdimensional TMNT.

Many of the death gods in Pantheons of the Megaverse are mentioned as cohabitating Hades. I don't have the Hades sourcebook yet, but I'm assuming it focuses only on the PF's demon lords and not Hades Aidoneous (the greek god of death), Yama, Kali, Ereshkigal, etc. If they don't inhabit Palladium's dark mirrorworld, they inhabit an alternate dimension also termed Hades.

Absolem wrote:Is it that the term "The Netherworld" is not used elsewhere?
I don't know. I don't recall seeing the specific term duplicated but I have seen similar ones (like 'Netherrealms').

Absolem wrote:What other books has Carella published for PB?
Besides Nightbane? Just looking at some Rifts books I have lying around: Mercenaries, Juicer Uprising, South Americas, Underseas, Phase World, Pantheons.

One of the characters Carella made in Pantheons (Loki G) is referenced in Nightlands, actually, as the guy who misled Ashtart.

Absolem wrote:Are you suggesting it shouldn't be tried or is there a suggestion in your verbiage I am not getting?
I'm not sure what you're asking about trying, but I'm never against trying anything. I just wasn't sure what 'fanboyitis' was directed at.

Rappanui wrote:In Rifts there is Modeus of Hades, the alien intelligence, and Palladium fantasy version. I would go with he's aligned with the Rifts One.
IT's a possibility, but they could just as easily be competitors. I believe in D+G it mentions that Mephisto the Deevil Lord would be pissed to know about his own impersonator. The (As)modeus AI is pretty powerful, and he's trying to rule over the same megaverse full of demons and stuff.

Part of the trouble with PF2nd Ed's stats for demons is you can tell they're pretty much copied over from Rifts CB1 without much of a thought for the planned changes for the lords in D+G.

For example, if you read PF2's stats for Magots, it will mention that they are minions of Mictla the Devourer (as per CB1). Yet in D+G, it is mentioned that the Lord of the Magots is actually that grim-reaper looking fellow who invented the deific sacrifice option for greater demons. His name slips the mind, but he's the guy that Hades Aidoneus apparently beat up for crossing into the Greek's Tartarus territory without permission.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Honestly, the minion war the way it's been set up elsewhere would completely shatter the Nightbane setting for a simple reason:

The entire basis of the current power balance is this: The Nightlords keep the world at large from realizing the supernatural exsits. Yes, there are incidents frequently, but through control of the media and propaganda, are able to get most of the world to cover their ears, close their eyes and pretend nothing's happening to stay happy.

If the minion war breaks out, and demons and devils start duking it out in a huge way, that shatters. The anti-nightlord elements manage to shift the blame on the goverment.

Remember, the reason that the nightlords are hiding is because it's assumed if the militaries of the world woke up and started slaying their imposter officer crops, they could invade the nightlands and attack the nightlords directly, and likely win. We KNOW nuclear weapons can oneshot nightlords, and we also know that NATO/Spook Squad has technological devices for entering the nightlands.

So pretty much the minion war would simply force the simmering kettle that is the Nightbane-verse to the bursting point. The nightlords have no choice but to defend themselves openly, the cover is blown, and things devolve into global war. Either the militaries of the major powers are successful in kicking Demons and Nightlords out alike, or else another world is damned as demons of one sort or another enslave all.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Absolem wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Honestly, the minion war the way it's been set up elsewhere would completely shatter the Nightbane setting for a simple reason:

The entire basis of the current power balance is this: The Nightlords keep the world at large from realizing the supernatural exsits. Yes, there are incidents frequently, but through control of the media and propaganda, are able to get most of the world to cover their ears, close their eyes and pretend nothing's happening to stay happy.

If the minion war breaks out, and demons and devils start duking it out in a huge way, that shatters. The anti-nightlord elements manage to shift the blame on the goverment.

Remember, the reason that the nightlords are hiding is because it's assumed if the militaries of the world woke up and started slaying their imposter officer crops, they could invade the nightlands and attack the nightlords directly, and likely win. We KNOW nuclear weapons can oneshot nightlords, and we also know that NATO/Spook Squad has technological devices for entering the nightlands.

So pretty much the minion war would simply force the simmering kettle that is the Nightbane-verse to the bursting point. The nightlords have no choice but to defend themselves openly, the cover is blown, and things devolve into global war. Either the militaries of the major powers are successful in kicking Demons and Nightlords out alike, or else another world is damned as demons of one sort or another enslave all.


You went to the worst case scenario. They can be covert in heroes unlimited, but not nightbane. They can't go to the nightlands first. They can't use Lilith to gain audience with Molok. They cant do their own infiltrating. Set traps to imprison the nightlords.,etc...


Covert in Heros Unlimited is not the same thing as Covert in Nightbane. In HU, People area already inured to magic, the supernatural, and freaks with superpowers. All they have to do is hide the demonic influence behind those things. Here, they'd have to hide that that's happening at all, and while they can (and do) do that on a small scale, if the minion war does try to go that low a level, I don't think it'd honestly qualify as the "Minion war", all you'd have done is add two additional demon factions to the current cloak and dagger deal going down.

EDIT: and it's made quite clear that the dark and Moloch are implacable enemies of all demons. All lillith getting them an audience would do is make him destroy Lillith and whatever envoy they sent.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Tor »

Absolem wrote:how does that enter into a Minion Wars adventure in the Nightbane universe?
It enters into it because whether the Modeus dealing with Lilith is the same Modeus engaged in the Minion War, or a different one, is somewhat of an important issue regarding which side Lilith might take, and which side Deevils may take.

Absolem wrote:DG and PM are a convoluted mess of trivia. Alot of it flows as if written on an all night bender...that, or severely over edited. My trust level is tenuous. What ideas would you have for an adventure of what I am referring to?
Be that as it may, PotM is canon in Nightbane because Loki-G, a character in it, is referenced as having interacted with Ashtart. It's written by the same author who created Nightbane. So trust it we must. DaG is a slightly different matter, as it's set in Palladium and written by different authors, but it is a source of information regarding the Demon/Deevil Lords engaged in the Minion War.

It's just not clear if those are the same ones, or their CB1 imposters, who are engaged with the CB2/Nightbane people.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:the reason that the nightlords are hiding is because it's assumed if the militaries of the world woke up and started slaying their imposter officer crops, they could invade the nightlands and attack the nightlords directly, and likely win. We KNOW nuclear weapons can oneshot nightlords
This won't do much good if the Nightlords are hiding on earth though :D

Would suck for the reserves of hounds/hunters they're holding in the Nightlands though.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:the dark and Moloch are implacable enemies of all demons. All lillith getting them an audience would do is make him destroy Lillith and whatever envoy they sent.
I always thought that was a little ambiguous. Foulseed seems to think Moloch's aware and tolerates the demon-consorting, and the Dark stopped at killing Lilith's proxy Astral Avatar rather than eliminating her as well.

Perhaps they're just overly cautious and putting up an extreme facade? I don't see why either dark/Moloch (or Mocker) would be so utterly opposed to demons.

But even if that's the case, what of devils?
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Tor wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:the reason that the nightlords are hiding is because it's assumed if the militaries of the world woke up and started slaying their imposter officer crops, they could invade the nightlands and attack the nightlords directly, and likely win. We KNOW nuclear weapons can oneshot nightlords
This won't do much good if the Nightlords are hiding on earth though :D

Would suck for the reserves of hounds/hunters they're holding in the Nightlands though.


Sure, but that statement wasn't exlusiary. the militaries of the world can beat the nightlords, this is cannonacly stated. nuclear weapons are just one thing the nightlords have no counter for, it's not the only means by which to accomplish it.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:the dark and Moloch are implacable enemies of all demons. All lillith getting them an audience would do is make him destroy Lillith and whatever envoy they sent.
I always thought that was a little ambiguous. Foulseed seems to think Moloch's aware and tolerates the demon-consorting, and the Dark stopped at killing Lilith's proxy Astral Avatar rather than eliminating her as well.

Perhaps they're just overly cautious and putting up an extreme facade? I don't see why either dark/Moloch (or Mocker) would be so utterly opposed to demons.

But even if that's the case, what of devils?


Nothing was ambiguous about it. Lord Foulseed is not noted for being an expert on nightlords, however much he may fancy himself as such.

And why would they be? Can be any number of reasons. Competition is one obvious one: In the end, only one of them can enslave humanity. and they could very not be interested in "Well lets work togeather until we beat mutual enemies", instead going "Why? I can beat you both right now, speaking of, *fwooosh*". Arrogance is noted to be high on their traits after all.

And lastly, it's impossible to say why the dark is because we're deliberately told nothing about the dark. WHY does the dark hate all demons? who knows. could be a zillion reasons and past greivances. at the same time "The dark hates demons" isn't an ambiguous statement, he hates demons and won't work with them. Why honestly dosn't matter. I encourage my villians to have irrational prejudices.

As for Deevils, honestly, I don't think any distinction is drawn. I can't think of a single instance of anyone going "Well demons are the epitomie of evil and betrayal, but deevils are allright with me". Frankly, I really think the only people in the megaverse who actually care about the distinction between deevils and demons are the deevils and demons themselves.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Absolem wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Tor wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:the reason that the nightlords are hiding is because it's assumed if the militaries of the world woke up and started slaying their imposter officer crops, they could invade the nightlands and attack the nightlords directly, and likely win. We KNOW nuclear weapons can oneshot nightlords
This won't do much good if the Nightlords are hiding on earth though :D

Would suck for the reserves of hounds/hunters they're holding in the Nightlands though.


Sure, but that statement wasn't exlusiary. the militaries of the world can beat the nightlords, this is cannonacly stated. nuclear weapons are just one thing the nightlords have no counter for, it's not the only means by which to accomplish it.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:the dark and Moloch are implacable enemies of all demons. All lillith getting them an audience would do is make him destroy Lillith and whatever envoy they sent.
I always thought that was a little ambiguous. Foulseed seems to think Moloch's aware and tolerates the demon-consorting, and the Dark stopped at killing Lilith's proxy Astral Avatar rather than eliminating her as well.

Perhaps they're just overly cautious and putting up an extreme facade? I don't see why either dark/Moloch (or Mocker) would be so utterly opposed to demons.

But even if that's the case, what of devils?


Nothing was ambiguous about it. Lord Foulseed is not noted for being an expert on nightlords, however much he may fancy himself as such.

And why would they be? Can be any number of reasons. Competition is one obvious one: In the end, only one of them can enslave humanity. and they could very not be interested in "Well lets work togeather until we beat mutual enemies", instead going "Why? I can beat you both right now, speaking of, *fwooosh*". Arrogance is noted to be high on their traits after all.

And lastly, it's impossible to say why the dark is because we're deliberately told nothing about the dark. WHY does the dark hate all demons? who knows. could be a zillion reasons and past greivances. at the same time "The dark hates demons" isn't an ambiguous statement, he hates demons and won't work with them. Why honestly dosn't matter. I encourage my villians to have irrational prejudices.

As for Deevils, honestly, I don't think any distinction is drawn. I can't think of a single instance of anyone going "Well demons are the epitomie of evil and betrayal, but deevils are allright with me". Frankly, I really think the only people in the megaverse who actually care about the distinction between deevils and demons are the deevils and demons themselves.


Lord Foulseed IS a nightlord, albeit renegade. "Lord Foulseed is not noted for being an expert on nightlords, however much he may fancy himself as such."? Dude.


Okay, somehow I remember Foulseed as being a Red Flame Demon Lord and not a nightlord. regardless, whatever he thinks about moloch and the other nightlords may well not be correct.

Ok, now for a question of status quo. Will the Minion War have a lasting impact on the megaverse?


Maybe, maybe not. I'm not particuarlly attached to the metaplot.

If so, why would doing anything in a NB game such a sacrilege if it is going to be changed anyway? It does not have to be earth shaking. An adventure where the nightlords get sucked into a conflict with the Deevils in the Nightlands, mitigated by trickery from the demons, and groups like the Atlantis Foundation or the Beachhead location, or the Warcamp, encountering the deevils, or inadvertantly stumping the demon plan, And I think that's the actual difference here. it's not that I think
while a) letting them know there is something out there to explore, and giving the group a legitimate opportunity to go outside Nightbane. Possible going to Wormwood, or Chaos Earth, or HU as a bounce point. Or, it can just be another encounter. As a byproduct, there are earthquakes and erupting volcanoes, and tidal events, globally, and/or sporadically on earth. These events can be either explained away or spawn more public research. Or, as is referrenced in a Wander's Diary, it could be a move towards the "perfect future" where the Nightlords lose and the the populace does not try to kill off the nightbane, too. These are my thoughts about an adventure.and by the by, Helldancer is listed a Demon lord working for the lords of Hades.."A creature of hellfire and damnation, this monster has spent millennia
serving his black-hearted masters, the Lords of Hades." "He has traveled
throughout the Megaverse and seen places of magic where dwarves
and elves fought mighty wars, and places of technology where giant robots
exchange lasers and missiles, and places in between. Above all, he
has brought chaos and destruction wherever he has gone. And now, this
powerful and cruel monster is in the unique position of acting as a mediator
between two ancient and terrible evils
. Helldancer works for both
Lady Lilith and Modeus, the Lord of Hades, while trying to negotiate a
treaty between the two. However, his true loyalties lie with Modeus, so
should the ruler of Hades order Helldancer to betray Lilith, he will do
so without hesitation." This does not sound like he works for a poser. This seems fairly straightforward.

[/quote]

Sure, i'm not aginst having demons be a major factor in a nightbane game, the point is when I think "Minion war", I think "Earth shaking", if it's NOT earth shaking, to me, it's not actually the minion war, and just another scheme by demons and deevils to increase their influence. ya know, the same kind of schemes they were running the whole time before the minion war.

And I think that's the major difference. I'm not saying "The demons can't be doing everything you just discribed", i'm saying "In my veiw, that's exactly what they've been doing all along, so that wouldn't be minion war stuff"
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:As for Deevils, honestly, I don't think any distinction is drawn. I can't think of a single instance of anyone going "Well demons are the epitomie of evil and betrayal, but deevils are allright with me". Frankly, I really think the only people in the megaverse who actually care about the distinction between deevils and demons are the deevils and demons themselves.
One distinction I could see is that while Demons want to enslave humanity and get worshippers, reading Dragons and Gods I got some implications that Deevils don't care as much about presuming humanity, and might be all for killing them off and harvesting their PPE.

That makes me think that Moloch and the Dark, who want to eradicate humanity, might feel more of a kindship with Dyval, compared with Demons, who share Lilith's desire to protect humanity so that it can be exploited as servants/slaves.

Absolem wrote:Helldancer works for both Lady Lilith and Modeus, the Lord of Hades, while trying to negotiate a treaty between the two. However, his true loyalties lie with Modeus, so should the ruler of Hades order Helldancer to betray Lilith, he will do so without hesitation." This does not sound like he works for a poser. This seems fairly straightforward.
There are at least two 'Modeus' entities with legions of demonic servants. 1 is the Aztec AI from CB1/2 who is also known as Asmodeus who rules a place called "Hades". The other is the PF Demon Lord who also has demon servants and rules a different realm ALSO called 'Hades' which in this case is the dark 'nightlands' -ish place that is a dark firey (unlike the Nightlands) shadowy copy of the Palladium World.

While the books do specify that the 'Mephisto' on Rifts is an 'imposter' of the PF version, we don't necessarily know that the Rifts (As)Modeus is an imposter of the Palladium one.

For all we know, that AI might be so ancient that it was around before the PF version of Modeus.

Both beings have demons as their minions though, so we don't really know which one Helldancer is working for. This is an important issue that clarifies how involved he would be in the Minion War. It's specific enough that the MW is between Palladium's Hades and the REAL Dyval (and not the Rifts Mephisto's fake Dyval).

I imagine the CB1 Mephisto of Rifts' Dyval and the CB1 (As)Modeus of Rifts' Hades LOVE the Minion War, because the Palladium's realms' lords are weakening each other, giving opportunity for the Rifts' versions to gain power. Which is probably why they're for the most part staying out of it.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Reading this discussion made me think, what if "The Dark" as an entity was just an elaborate Deevil ruse? What if the true power behind the Nightlords were Deevil lords?
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Tor wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:As for Deevils, honestly, I don't think any distinction is drawn. I can't think of a single instance of anyone going "Well demons are the epitomie of evil and betrayal, but deevils are allright with me". Frankly, I really think the only people in the megaverse who actually care about the distinction between deevils and demons are the deevils and demons themselves.
One distinction I could see is that while Demons want to enslave humanity and get worshippers, reading Dragons and Gods I got some implications that Deevils don't care as much about presuming humanity, and might be all for killing them off and harvesting their PPE.

That makes me think that Moloch and the Dark, who want to eradicate humanity, might feel more of a kindship with Dyval, compared with Demons, who share Lilith's desire to protect humanity so that it can be exploited as servants/slaves.


You kidding? deevils in palladium fantasy have far more widespread and organized cults than demons do. Heck, they outright took over the palladium fantasy world after the war with the old ones (Presumably while Lictalon had taken the army of light to hades to invade there for...reasons never explained), they conquered everything and spread their worship everywhere.

I want to repeat, the deevils successfully conquered palladia, and not only did they not kill off all mortals they made securing their worship about the only thing out of the deal they ever wanted in the first place.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Absolem wrote:Has anyone have any thoughts concerning an adventure where the Minion Wars makes a foray into the Nightbane universe? As there are demons in LA, and Devil City, I wondered if that was possible or probable. Any thoughts? Thanks

I would think the NightLords would squash any expedition into their playground pretty quickly.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Glistam wrote:Reading this discussion made me think, what if "The Dark" as an entity was just an elaborate Deevil ruse? What if the true power behind the Nightlords were Deevil lords?
I've had this idea before too, if anyone could pull this off it'd be the Sahtalus/Grim combo.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:You kidding? deevils in palladium fantasy have far more widespread and organized cults than demons do. Heck, they outright took over the palladium fantasy world after the war with the old ones (Presumably while Lictalon had taken the army of light to hades to invade there for...reasons never explained), they conquered everything and spread their worship everywhere.

I want to repeat, the deevils successfully conquered palladia, and not only did they not kill off all mortals they made securing their worship about the only thing out of the deal they ever wanted in the first place.
True, they're great at establishing cults, but the point is that they don't seem to value their mortal worshipper's health the same way that Gods (or even Demons) do, since they sacrifice them so readily. I remember it saying somewhere that the actual Lesser Deevils are the only ones whose lives matter (and even then, since they get reborn when they die outside their home, not too highly).

Rappanui wrote:then I feel, if the nightlords got involved, They would begin to Wipe out Devil/demon territory en Masse, as they once again destroy their dimensions and kill their Deevil Lords.
The demon Netherworld which the Nightlords wiped out erred in leaving an open rift between their home and the nightlands. They were careless. We've no reason to think that the demons of Hades (whichever) would be so foolish. We don't know if the demons who got wiped out had Lords ruling them, for example.

Even if the Hades folk were equally dumb, Deevils wouldn't be. They're much craftier, and it's very difficult to gain access to their realm.

Even if the Nightlords were able to collapse a dimension, that'd only destroy Dyval Prime, the newest dimension of the Dyval multi-dimensional realm, something they've gotten along without before, and could do so again.

That'd be a pretty bad decision too, because it'd **** off a number of the Northern Gods, guys who are pretty much on tier with the Egyptian Light/Dark guys.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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There's a difference between not valuing mortal life, and not thinking of it as imporant. Again, if death and destruction were all they wanted like the dark, they had the opportunity to blot palladia out and didn't take it. clearly that's not the goal.

I think your reading it wrong, not so much "Mortals are worthless and need to die", so much as "Mortals are cattle. I feel nothing more about sacrafising a hundred for my ritual than a rancher feels about butchering a hundred of his cows to sell. I have more"

The "I have more" part is important. Humans are cattle the deevils, but still important. sure they think absolutely nothing of culling the herd, but you still have to HAVE a herd. they don't want to run out. if push came to shove they'd actually fight to protect a controled world so long as the calculated value of that herd of humans was worth defending it.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:if death and destruction were all they wanted like the dark, they had the opportunity to blot palladia out and didn't take it.
I'm not so sure they weren't taking that opportunity. I'm not really clear on how the Deevil-rule of Palladium ended, couldn't they possibly have been overthrown? Like people caught on to how they were killing EVERYONE and stopped following them, turned to other pantheons (including Demons) and pushed them out?

The Deevils clearly don't rule Palladium now so they withdrew for some reason, and if they were enjoying ruling it with such success I don't know why they'd give it up.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Tor wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:if death and destruction were all they wanted like the dark, they had the opportunity to blot palladia out and didn't take it.
I'm not so sure they weren't taking that opportunity. I'm not really clear on how the Deevil-rule of Palladium ended, couldn't they possibly have been overthrown? Like people caught on to how they were killing EVERYONE and stopped following them, turned to other pantheons (including Demons) and pushed them out?

The Deevils clearly don't rule Palladium now so they withdrew for some reason, and if they were enjoying ruling it with such success I don't know why they'd give it up.


If they were overthrown, clearly they didn't "give up", they were forced. and no, given all i've read, I really don't think it could be for the reasons you state. We just have fundamentally different takes on their methods and motivations dispite us having the same source material to look at.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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We do know that, if the Ta Palladia is true, they were pitting races against each other mass genocides. Maybe they figured 'the double PPE today is more guaranteed over the higher net PPE from daily worships'.

My point is that they didn't really have the opportunity to plot out Palladium if someone else intervened and stopped them from doing it. Being halted by enemies means that they very well might have wanted to wipe out the entire planet.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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The 'Ta Palladia' (I think that's the term) is like this ancient book thingy (kinda like PF's bible) referencing a bunch of old events like Lictalon and Kym-Nark-Mar ganging up on the old ones, etc. Would love to read something like that printed in full, but it's something you only ever see quoted or referred to in distinct parts.

It would be quite a project to find and somehow organize every single reference to it from ever PF book though.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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we were discussing from an almalgam of sources. and Te Palladia is a fancy name for The Tristine Chronicles.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Ah that name rings a bell, no idea why I couldn't remember it... makes me wonder what 'Tristine' means though.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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The nightlands to me just doesn't seem like a tasty target to the demons or deevils, Center is a good target, then failing that try to get a foot hold on rifts earth.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Tor wrote:Ah that name rings a bell, no idea why I couldn't remember it... makes me wonder what 'Tristine' means though.


I think it's the name of the elf that wrote them. or given how old it is, what elf people think wrote them.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Chronicle wrote:The nightlands to me just doesn't seem like a tasty target to the demons or deevils, Center is a good target, then failing that try to get a foot hold on rifts earth.
Sometimes the tasty target is the one you can hold onto. Holding Nightlands might be easier than holding Phase World.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Absolem wrote:
Tor wrote:
Chronicle wrote:The nightlands to me just doesn't seem like a tasty target to the demons or deevils, Center is a good target, then failing that try to get a foot hold on rifts earth.
Sometimes the tasty target is the one you can hold onto. Holding Nightlands might be easier than holding Phase World.


I was wondering. What if the ritual that the Nightlords used to to collapse the dimension in the Netherworld is not a memorized thing? What if it is a stored ritual written and hid in a "Nightlord vault", as many artifacts of power and other relics, as they are mentioned as having? What if the demons discovered where it was stored and are planning to steal it, making it unavailable to the Nightlords and plan to use it to collapse Dyyval, or at least one of their layers, or, maybe Nightbane universe itself? maybe it could be used to remove the Nightlands altogether and turn th Nightbane world regular? Just a thought where someone like Lord Foulseed might seek out mightbane for assistance in a "mission from the Dark" to save the worlds.


Sounds like you have a campaign plot.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

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Why would the Dark want to save the world? I thought he wanted to destroy it.

Demons, like Lilith, want to keep stuff around so they can conquer and rule it. I could see Demons wanting to collapse a Dyval plane (it would have to be Dyval Prime, there's no indication that they're aware of the other layers) to win the war, but collapsing the Nightlands would be pointless.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Nightmask »

Rappanui wrote:what makes the nightlords so dangerous is that their understanding of magic is much higher then other people's, and they have Thousands of Nightlords to work together with.


Except from what I remember the Nightlords don't ever use their magic if they can help it, they're all caught up in their matter/energy manipulation abilities. Most of them have atrophied when it comes to magic knowledge, about the only one who's been really using his magical abilities is that one renegade (foulseed I think was his name) because he's cut off from all his original resources and on the run.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Tor »

That's what the main book said about Night Lords but the plethora of magic spells possessed by most of the Nightlords and their avatars in Nightlands speaks contrary to it.

Even so, their matter control abilities are quite scary. Presumably that's how they destroyed an entire Netherworld full of demons right?
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Tor wrote:That's what the main book said about Night Lords but the plethora of magic spells possessed by most of the Nightlords and their avatars in Nightlands speaks contrary to it.


Not really. Nightlands highlighted a few of the biggest and most dangerous Nightlords, just because the top dogs practice magic does not indicate the majority do.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Nightmask »

Tor wrote:That's what the main book said about Night Lords but the plethora of magic spells possessed by most of the Nightlords and their avatars in Nightlands speaks contrary to it.

Even so, their matter control abilities are quite scary. Presumably that's how they destroyed an entire Netherworld full of demons right?


Just because they haven't forgotten the spells doesn't mean that they still use them, just as a guy who has a garage full of cars doesn't mean he's actually driving them around. It's not much different than what we see with Master Vampires, even if they were mages before conversion we're told they rarely if ever use their prior magical knowledge and focus on using their vampiric abilities instead. While the Nightlords started as magic users after their conversion they pretty much focused on their nice new abilities over the abilities that got them there.
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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Rappanui wrote:
Absolem wrote:
Rappanui wrote:I disagree, Ashtart is shown to be using magic all the time, and he's a low level Nightlord, subservient to magog, runs NY in his stead.
Also, Nightlords grant the night priests their spells...
The main reason Nightlords don't use their spells, their minions use their abilities and most magic is Deceptive, which their minions are either immune to or are masters of, and feeding on supernatural creatures is not as appetizing

Sounds like you are saying they operate like lesser deities, but there are a thousand or so of them. So, it also sounds like you are saying, per previous posts, that the ritual allowed Moloch to harness the nightlords matter/energy control power to dissipate the dimensional energies of the layer, collapsing it. The text does not specifically state that power, but it would be intetesting. 1000 little super powered godlings. ...


Yes, that is quite exactly what I'm saying they are. They are Innumerable, and grow at the rate of human growth... Everytime a city gets that "Million" mark, a Nightlord is either added from another post, Recruited, or his "Faction" gets more territory. India is full of Nightlords, So is Northern Africa, going by the population numbers given in the Nightlands book. They are an ever growing army of "lesser Deities" who are slowly but surely taking over the world for the dark.


Actually, it's stated that there havn't been any new nightlords sinse biblical times, and no more new ones are being created. where did you get that they just spawn every million or so?
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Tor »

Rappanui wrote:Nightlords grant the night priests their spells...
Actually this isn't made clear. The main book theorized that the powers may come directly from the Dark (though the link is set up by the Night Squires/Lords).

Rappanui wrote:They are Innumerable, and grow at the rate of human growth... Everytime a city gets that "Million" mark, a Nightlord is either added from another post
This is an interesting statistic, where is it from? I figure there must be more to becoming a Nightlord than there being need of one to rule a new population grouping. Perhaps this is what motives the Lords to give opportunities to new potentials, but the potentials must still be there.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:it's stated that there havn't been any new nightlords sinse biblical times
This estimation was revealed in Nightlands to be a little off. Wasn't there a very young/recent Nightlord from post-biblical times?

Perhaps we should define biblical too because technically the last part of the new testament is set in the future so... =/
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Rappanui wrote:from the texts in nightlands, Says There's roughly a Nightlord for every city with a million plus people, And at least one Avatar for every city of at least 100,000 and while it's Trivial to say that there are No NEW nightlords, There are plenty of nightlords from older times just sitting it out in some god forsaken far off location.


Nothing really indicates there are thousands of nightlords that have been sitting in some rual place doing nothing for mellenia

As for the spawning scenario.. This is because of the Nemesis RCC.. The nightlands always mirror the real world in growth spurs.


Yes, but the nightlords don't spawn in result. besides, unlike most, Nightlords dont' die if their nemisis does, but they can become the nemisis of someone new after the origional croaks.

If anything, Lord Foulseed is the Loose canon that will Probably engage in Recruiting potential Nightlords in his own service.


making new nightlords requires one to have a connection to the dark, so only Moloch and Mocker could possibly do any recuiting.

For All We Know, Lord Mocker has thousands of Nightlords sitting in his Dark Siberian Goulags.


Nothing at all indicates this, you just seem to like the idea of there being tons of nightlords
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Tor »

Rappanui wrote:This is because of the Nemesis RCC.. The nightlands always mirror the real world in growth spurs.
The Nemesis is a very unclear concept. It's writeup conflicts itself by initially saying everyone has a nemesis, and then goes on to mention that only important people have them.

There are roughly 30% the number of Dopplegangers as humans (not every human has one) and I imagine the number of Nemeses are even less (because is 3 in 10 people really a major player? doubt it)

It gets weirder when you realize that a Nemesis Doppleganger can belong to someone else.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Nothing really indicates there are thousands of nightlords that have been sitting in some rual place doing nothing for mellenia
It's possible that some might rule over areas with fewer than a million people though. Though they can't be too isolated if they wish to avoid starving (that or just have a Nightbane to feed on, a single one's healing factor could sate hundreds of Nightlords.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Rallan »

Nightmask wrote:
Rappanui wrote:what makes the nightlords so dangerous is that their understanding of magic is much higher then other people's, and they have Thousands of Nightlords to work together with.


Except from what I remember the Nightlords don't ever use their magic if they can help it, they're all caught up in their matter/energy manipulation abilities. Most of them have atrophied when it comes to magic knowledge, about the only one who's been really using his magical abilities is that one renegade (foulseed I think was his name) because he's cut off from all his original resources and on the run.


I never really bought that, especially since most of the ones that've been statted out have got a fairly extensive spell list to work with. Plus the Nightlords have spent a fair bit of time plotting to have rivals killed, so every Nightlord in the canon setting is an immortal mastermind who's managed to survive five or ten thousand years' worth of warfare, assassination attempts, framing attempts, and unexpected random appearances of nasty critters from other dimensions. Most of the Nightlords who've survived into the modern era are going to be ruthlessly pragmatic, and I don't buy the idea of them refusing to use a spell when it's the best tool for the job. It just doesn't strike me as very sensible behavior for beings with mental stats in the 20s and a few thousand years of experience under their belts.
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Re: Minion War in Nightbane

Unread post by Nightmask »

Rallan wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Rappanui wrote:what makes the nightlords so dangerous is that their understanding of magic is much higher then other people's, and they have Thousands of Nightlords to work together with.


Except from what I remember the Nightlords don't ever use their magic if they can help it, they're all caught up in their matter/energy manipulation abilities. Most of them have atrophied when it comes to magic knowledge, about the only one who's been really using his magical abilities is that one renegade (foulseed I think was his name) because he's cut off from all his original resources and on the run.


I never really bought that, especially since most of the ones that've been statted out have got a fairly extensive spell list to work with. Plus the Nightlords have spent a fair bit of time plotting to have rivals killed, so every Nightlord in the canon setting is an immortal mastermind who's managed to survive five or ten thousand years' worth of warfare, assassination attempts, framing attempts, and unexpected random appearances of nasty critters from other dimensions. Most of the Nightlords who've survived into the modern era are going to be ruthlessly pragmatic, and I don't buy the idea of them refusing to use a spell when it's the best tool for the job. It just doesn't strike me as very sensible behavior for beings with mental stats in the 20s and a few thousand years of experience under their belts.


But are the spells really the most useful, when you have such mastery over energy and matter? Just because they're ruthless masterminds doesn't mean that they've bothered with their magic, after all that requires personal involvement and how may Nightlords are really in the position to be engaging in such personal combat maneuvers that they'd keep their magical skills fresh? Foulseed's the only one actually getting around and having to depend on magic as much if not moreso than his personal matter/energy mastery.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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