Xitixic Book.

[Killer Cyborg]

Since Palladium books basically retconned the entire book an the entire social behaviour of the Xit's in their Tolkeen war series (via The homles manuver).

Do you guys consider the book canon anymore or .. ?

"Entire book"...?

I'd say that less than a page was retconned by Holmes' maneuver.

[DhAkael]

Since Palladium books basically retconned the entire book an the entire social behaviour of the Xit's in their Tolkeen war series (via The homles manuver).

Do you guys consider the book canon anymore or .. ?

*shrug*
I just work here.
Mind you; giving Xiticix "levels" ?!?
Um... yeah...about that.
So NO; I'd say only about half of Xiticix hivelands is canon now; the rest Kevin just tossed into a papershredder and [censored] on it.

[Mack]

I just bought Xiticix Hivelands a week ago, and am 80% of the way through it.

Yes, it's still canon. It's accurate as of the year 105PA. Holmes' manuever happened after that and represents what he learned after 105PA (unexpected though it may be...).

I agree with KC, only about a page of material would be changed. (Perhaps we should add a paragraph on how Queen's enjoy a nice military parade?)

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I just bought Xiticix Hivelands a week ago, and am 80% of the way through it.

Yes, it's still canon. It's accurate as of the year 105PA. Holmes' manuever happened after that and represents what he learned after 105PA (unexpected though it may be...).

I agree with KC, only about a page of material would be changed. (Perhaps we should add a paragraph on how Queen's enjoy a nice military parade?)

Everybody enjoys a nice military parade even alien insect queens.

[Giant2005]

WB 23 is canon and so are the CS War series.
We know that the Xiticix aren't going to tolerate a "military parade" but we also know that Holmes and his crew did just that. They might seem like mutually exclusive facts but they aren't.
We don't know HOW Holmes and his crew managed to get through, all we know is that they did.
Some outside force could have shielded them from the Xiticix - Holmes and his crew wouldn't even necessarily have to realize that they were aided. The Vanguard could even be capable of such a feat if their numbers and capabilities were far higher than credited. Splynncryth and a Splugorth buddy could have been waging a bet on the war and whichever one was betting on the CS felt the need to cheat by protecting the parade.
There are lots of ways that they could have survived without contradicting canon - just because we don't know how it was achieved doesn't mean it is impossible.

[Mack]

And to be fair, Gen Holmes did lose 25% of his force.

[masslegion]

WB 23 is canon and so are the CS War series.
We know that the Xiticix aren't going to tolerate a "military parade" but we also know that Holmes and his crew did just that. They might seem like mutually exclusive facts but they aren't.
We don't know HOW Holmes and his crew managed to get through, all we know is that they did.
Some outside force could have shielded them from the Xiticix - Holmes and his crew wouldn't even necessarily have to realize that they were aided. The Vanguard could even be capable of such a feat if their numbers and capabilities were far higher than credited. Splynncryth and a Splugorth buddy could have been waging a bet on the war and whichever one was betting on the CS felt the need to cheat by protecting the parade.
There are lots of ways that they could have survived without contradicting canon - just because we don't know how it was achieved doesn't mean it is impossible.

I like these explanations.

[Mercdog]

WB 23 is canon and so are the CS War series.
We know that the Xiticix aren't going to tolerate a "military parade" but we also know that Holmes and his crew did just that. They might seem like mutually exclusive facts but they aren't.
We don't know HOW Holmes and his crew managed to get through, all we know is that they did.
Some outside force could have shielded them from the Xiticix - Holmes and his crew wouldn't even necessarily have to realize that they were aided. The Vanguard could even be capable of such a feat if their numbers and capabilities were far higher than credited. Splynncryth and a Splugorth buddy could have been waging a bet on the war and whichever one was betting on the CS felt the need to cheat by protecting the parade.
There are lots of ways that they could have survived without contradicting canon - just because we don't know how it was achieved doesn't mean it is impossible.

Some time ago I had the thought that Holmes split up his forces into smaller groups and directing each group to take a different route to a predetermined rendezvous point outside the Hivelands. Xits went for the larger, 'louder' groups while the smaller, quieter ones slipped away.

[cornholioprime]

WB 23 is canon and so are the CS War series.
We know that the Xiticix aren't going to tolerate a "military parade" but we also know that Holmes and his crew did just that. They might seem like mutually exclusive facts but they aren't.
We don't know HOW Holmes and his crew managed to get through, all we know is that they did.
Some outside force could have shielded them from the Xiticix - Holmes and his crew wouldn't even necessarily have to realize that they were aided. The Vanguard could even be capable of such a feat if their numbers and capabilities were far higher than credited. Splynncryth and a Splugorth buddy could have been waging a bet on the war and whichever one was betting on the CS felt the need to cheat by protecting the parade.
There are lots of ways that they could have survived without contradicting canon - just because we don't know how it was achieved doesn't mean it is impossible.

What are you talking about?

We know EXACTLY how Holmes and his crew managed to get through; it was explained to the readers in rather gory detail. Not from Holmes' perspective, and not from the bugs' perspective, but it was explained to us readers from the "God's Eye" point of view.

And to be fair, Gen Holmes did lose 25% of his force.

(Former?) Forum Member RainOfSteel also covered this in Thread a few years back, where he did the math.

Even the "math" was wrong, and the Xiticix should have been able to completely decimate the entirety of Holmes' forces in the time between his arrival in the Hivelands and his departure.

Rain also covered the problems with all those troops having no supply lines for several weeks (hungry, anybody?) once they were cut off.

[DhAkael]

WB 23 is canon and so are the CS War series.
We know that the Xiticix aren't going to tolerate a "military parade" but we also know that Holmes and his crew did just that. They might seem like mutually exclusive facts but they aren't.
We don't know HOW Holmes and his crew managed to get through, all we know is that they did.
Some outside force could have shielded them from the Xiticix - Holmes and his crew wouldn't even necessarily have to realize that they were aided. The Vanguard could even be capable of such a feat if their numbers and capabilities were far higher than credited. Splynncryth and a Splugorth buddy could have been waging a bet on the war and whichever one was betting on the CS felt the need to cheat by protecting the parade.
There are lots of ways that they could have survived without contradicting canon - just because we don't know how it was achieved doesn't mean it is impossible.

What are you talking about?

We know EXACTLY how Holmes and his crew managed to get through; it was explained to the readers in rather gory detail. Not from Holmes' perspective, and not from the bugs' perspective, but it was explained to us readers from the "God's Eye" point of view.

And to be fair, Gen Holmes did lose 25% of his force.

(Former?) Forum Member RainOfSteel also covered this in Thread a few years back, where he did the math.

Even the "math" was wrong, and the Xiticix should have been able to completely decimate the entirety of Holmes' forces in the time between his arrival in the Hivelands and his departure.

Rain also covered the problems with all those troops having no supply lines for several weeks (hungry, anybody?) once they were cut off.

Thank you C.H.P. ; I do NOT buy the "brown nose" explanation of how Holmes got through. It was script immunity plain and simple... it made no sense except "Coffin & Kevin said so!"
So no; sorry the rest of you; SoT was BADLY written, I never wasted my money on it. Therefor it may be canon to completionists, but to most people with any learning about military history, it is ignored whole cloth. Aside from 'Tolkeen Lost'. *shrug*
No escaping that true-fact.
Kevin said so.

[Killer Cyborg]

And to be fair, Gen Holmes did lose 25% of his force.

(Former?) Forum Member RainOfSteel also covered this in Thread a few years back, where he did the math.

Even the "math" was wrong, and the Xiticix should have been able to completely decimate the entirety of Holmes' forces in the time between his arrival in the Hivelands and his departure.

Rain also covered the problems with all those troops having no supply lines for several weeks (hungry, anybody?) once they were cut off.

"Decimate" means "reduce by 10%."
So the xiticix did worse than decimate Holmes' forces.

[Giant2005]

And to be fair, Gen Holmes did lose 25% of his force.

(Former?) Forum Member RainOfSteel also covered this in Thread a few years back, where he did the math.

Even the "math" was wrong, and the Xiticix should have been able to completely decimate the entirety of Holmes' forces in the time between his arrival in the Hivelands and his departure.

Rain also covered the problems with all those troops having no supply lines for several weeks (hungry, anybody?) once they were cut off.

"Decimate" means "reduce by 10%."
So the xiticix did worse than decimate Holmes' forces.

Usage note
The earliest English sense of decimate is “to select by lot and execute every tenth soldier of (a unit).” The extended sense “destroy a great number or proportion of” developed in the 19th century: Cholera decimated the urban population. Because the etymological sense of one-tenth remains to some extent, decimate is not ordinarily used with exact fractions or percentages: Drought has destroyed (not decimated ) nearly 80 percent of the cattle.

[Killer Cyborg]

And to be fair, Gen Holmes did lose 25% of his force.

(Former?) Forum Member RainOfSteel also covered this in Thread a few years back, where he did the math.

Even the "math" was wrong, and the Xiticix should have been able to completely decimate the entirety of Holmes' forces in the time between his arrival in the Hivelands and his departure.

Rain also covered the problems with all those troops having no supply lines for several weeks (hungry, anybody?) once they were cut off.

"Decimate" means "reduce by 10%."
So the xiticix did worse than decimate Holmes' forces.

Usage note
The earliest English sense of decimate is “to select by lot and execute every tenth soldier of (a unit).” The extended sense “destroy a great number or proportion of” developed in the 19th century: Cholera decimated the urban population. Because the etymological sense of one-tenth remains to some extent, decimate is not ordinarily used with exact fractions or percentages: Drought has destroyed (not decimated ) nearly 80 percent of the cattle.

The etymological sense not only remains, it needs to be reenforced.
When words stop meaning what they say, communication breaks down.

[ffranceschi]

WB23 is right BUT when General Holmes tried the impossible, against all odds, the Xitixic behaved differently. Since they are not machines, it is plausible that for unknown reasons they had an odd behavior. I mean, odd as killing only 25% and not odd as giving them flowers!

[cornholioprime]

And to be fair, Gen Holmes did lose 25% of his force.

(Former?) Forum Member RainOfSteel also covered this in Thread a few years back, where he did the math.

Even the "math" was wrong, and the Xiticix should have been able to completely decimate the entirety of Holmes' forces in the time between his arrival in the Hivelands and his departure.

Rain also covered the problems with all those troops having no supply lines for several weeks (hungry, anybody?) once they were cut off.

"Decimate" means "reduce by 10%."
So the xiticix did worse than decimate Holmes' forces.

"Decimation" doesn't just mean 'kill off only 10 percent,' not anymore.

As is the case with many words, the original meaning of the word has expanded over time.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

1: to select by lot and kill every tenth man of

2: to exact a tax of 10 percent from <poor as a decimated Cavalier — John Dryden>

3a : to reduce drastically especially in number <cholera decimated the population>

3b : to cause great destruction or harm to <firebombs decimated the city> <an industry decimated by recession>

[Mech-Viper Prime]

what was the total distance travel by jericho?

[Killer Cyborg]

And to be fair, Gen Holmes did lose 25% of his force.

(Former?) Forum Member RainOfSteel also covered this in Thread a few years back, where he did the math.

Even the "math" was wrong, and the Xiticix should have been able to completely decimate the entirety of Holmes' forces in the time between his arrival in the Hivelands and his departure.

Rain also covered the problems with all those troops having no supply lines for several weeks (hungry, anybody?) once they were cut off.

"Decimate" means "reduce by 10%."
So the xiticix did worse than decimate Holmes' forces.

"Decimation" doesn't just mean 'kill off only 10 percent,' not anymore.

As is the case with many words, the original meaning of the word has expanded over time.

You say "expanded over time," I say "been misused until the actual meaning was forgotten by many."

[cornholioprime]

"Decimation" doesn't just mean 'kill off only 10 percent,' not anymore.

As is the case with many words, the original meaning of the word has expanded over time.

You say "expanded over time," I say "been misused until the actual meaning was forgotten by many."

And other people can lament that "gay" doesn't mean what it used to.

Or "hysterical."

Or "cougar."

Or any of a multitude of other words in the English language.

Nothing different with "decimate."

That I seized upon its most current meaning, doesn't make my use of the word in the previous posting incorrect.

[Killer Cyborg]

"Decimation" doesn't just mean 'kill off only 10 percent,' not anymore.

As is the case with many words, the original meaning of the word has expanded over time.

You say "expanded over time," I say "been misused until the actual meaning was forgotten by many."

And other people can lament that "gay" doesn't mean what it used to.

That they do.
And I can see their point.

Or "hysterical."

That's a good example, because the etymology is pretty clear in the root.

Or "cougar."

That word still means the same thing, there's just a metaphorical meaning as well, which isn't the same thing as is going on with decimate, which is a hyperbolic (or simply inaccurate) meaning.

Or any of a multitude of other words in the English language.

Nothing different with "decimate."

That I seized upon its most current meaning, doesn't make my use of the word in the previous posting incorrect.

Except in that the most current meaning is incorrect.

And you can probably guess that I'm perfectly willing to argue etymology and meaning ad nauseum if that's what you really want to do, but I'm content to know that you understand the meaning of the word, even if you disagree with me about the legitimacy of some of the current usage.

[Mack]

Semantic arguements can be held somewhere else. Please keep this to a Rifts discussion.

[ffranceschi]

what was the total distance travel by jericho?

I have searched in all the books of the Siege of Tolkeen series and I couldn't find it. I think it is almost impossible to extrapolate the correct total distance based on what it is written because you will never know the exact route that the army took.

[taalismn]

[Rain also covered the problems with all those troops having no supply lines for several weeks (hungry, anybody?) once they were cut off.

That's what cannibalism is for.
Of course, that's NOT going to make the CS press, except maybe as oblique reference to 'the Donner Maneuver'.
And anybody figuring THAT out gets picked up as a rogue scholar by the secret police.

[Mack]

what was the total distance travel by jericho?

Distance is irrelevent, as we know as the reader and it was written
That Jericho was in fact in the heart, the the hivelands.

No, he took his troops through Xiticix territory, not through the heart.

If you know of any reference to the heart, I'd would like to read it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

[Rain also covered the problems with all those troops having no supply lines for several weeks (hungry, anybody?) once they were cut off.

That's what cannibalism is for.
Of course, that's NOT going to make the CS press, except maybe as oblique reference to 'the Donner Maneuver'.
And anybody figuring THAT out gets picked up as a rogue scholar by the secret police.

The army was forward deployed already. They had their APCs and robot vechiles. They had their CS-MRE's in there. They likely had their support elements WITH them when they fled. Which would be the alternate MarkV's that serve as the supply movers andwhat not. Rolling kitchens and ammo and repair facilities.

It might suck, but in a situation like that, you reduce food intake as much as you can. one MRE has huge amounts of Calories. If you're issued 3 or 4 a day for COMBAT. Sitting in the APC and not allowed to move around as it slow crawls, you cut back. You tell your troops. "One MRE a day lads. Less activity means less need for food. Means less feces we have in a bucket till we open the door a crack late at night and pour it out."

It's not optimal, but if it's "Reduce and stretch your food supply and live" Or "Starve" Most people will ration their... rations... lol.

And... as one of the rifters pointed out. Xit's made good eating.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

what was the total distance travel by jericho?

Distance is irrelevent, as we know as the reader and it was written
That Jericho was in fact in the heart, the the hivelands.

And there in lies the problem that he yet lives. with 305,000
intact troops.

really since in the matter of 2 weeks they could have walked back to chi-town !

[Mech-Viper Prime]

No, he took his troops through Xiticix territory, not through the heart

Oh my mistake, I was going off of memory.

If they did not go threw the heartlands of the hivelands, why is it such a big deal
to everyone that he lived at all then ?

because he is coalition, but to be honest this was one of the moments on the board were the CS supports cheered and it upset the anti-cs folks back in the day. the xiticix encouraged the coalition to keep moving

[cornholioprime]

No, he took his troops through Xiticix territory, not through the heart

Oh my mistake, I was going off of memory.

If they did not go threw the heartlands of the hivelands, why is it such a big deal
to everyone that he lived at all then ?

Because the Xiticix brought more than enough force to bear on his location, that he and the entirety of the forces under his command should have been destroyed by them, easily, EXCEPT that the Hand Of God interceded and made the Xiticix act in a way that they'd never, ever, ever, ever acted before (you could be a herd of wild, DUMB, UNARMED animals and the Xiticix would go insane before the ret-con, slaughtering all in sight just for the crime of being there, forget about an entire armed Coalition Army Corps).

It was analogous to having a bunch of sailors in the water, many of them bleeding profusely, but all of a sudden all of the sharks around them take only a few bites out of a few sailors, and then swim off.

There was also the utterly unbelievable spectacle of the Hand Of God rewriting basic human behaviour so that all those troops got slaughtered -horribly -and yet they didn't fire a single solitary shot back at the attackers, not even under panic and the pain of gruesome death.

You know any humans, anywhere, who would follow such orders in the midst of such incredible carnage (at least seventy-five THOUSAND gruesome deaths)??

[Mech-Viper Prime]

No, he took his troops through Xiticix territory, not through the heart

Oh my mistake, I was going off of memory.

If they did not go threw the heartlands of the hivelands, why is it such a big deal
to everyone that he lived at all then ?

Because the Xiticix brought more than enough force to bear on his location, that he and the entirety of the forces under his command should have been destroyed by them, easily, EXCEPT that the Hand Of God interceded and made the Xiticix act in a way that they'd never, ever, ever, ever acted before (you could be a herd of wild, DUMB, UNARMED animals and the Xiticix would go insane before the ret-con, slaughtering all in sight just for the crime of being there, forget about an entire armed Coalition Army Corps).

It was analogous to having a bunch of sailors in the water, many of them bleeding profusely, but all of a sudden all of the sharks around them take only a few bites out of a few sailors, and then swim off.

There was also the utterly unbelievable spectacle of the Hand Of God rewriting basic human behaviour so that all those troops got slaughtered -horribly -and yet they didn't fire a single solitary shot back at the attackers, not even under panic and the pain of gruesome death.

You know any humans, anywhere, who would follow such orders in the midst of such incredible carnage (at least seventy-five THOUSAND gruesome deaths)??

there you go again, and like i said before you act like they did nothing to defend themselves , with smoke grenades and other non-lethal means

[Sureshot]

The book for me is is still useful beyond the Sot and Holmes somehow surviving in the Xiticix badlands fiasco. The information is stilll useful. Even if the Xitcix behavior was tossed aside for SOT. The only reason the Cs survived was because Kevin wanted them to win and gave Holmes forces nearly complete plot and script immunity. That's it. I know some do not want to accept let alone concede that happened but it did. SOT was one big railroad and nothing included previously published canon material was going to get in the way.

there you go again, and like i said before you act like they did nothing to defend themselves , with smoke grenades and other non-lethal means

Non-lethal or not. Smoke grenades or not. That means nothing to a very territoril species like the Xicticix. Even then he should have lost at least 50-75% of his forces and vehicles. Hand of god is hand of god plain and simple. When the writer in charge wants a a faction to win he will mak them win. End of story.

[Nightmask]

The book for me is is still useful beyond the Sot and Holmes somehow surviving in the Xiticix badlands fiasco. The information is stilll useful. Even if the Xitcix behavior was tossed aside for SOT. The only reason the Cs survived was because Kevin wanted them to win and gave Holmes forces nearly complete plot and script immunity. That's it. I know some do not want to accept let alone concede that happened but it did. SOT was one big railroad and nothing included previously published canon material was going to get in the way.

there you go again, and like i said before you act like they did nothing to defend themselves , with smoke grenades and other non-lethal means

Non-lethal or not. Smoke grenades or not. That means nothing to a very territoril species like the Xicticix. Even then he should have lost at least 50-75% of his forces and vehicles. Hand of god is hand of god plain and simple. When the writer in charge wants a a faction to win he will mak them win. End of story.

Plus not like they've any reason to just give up and go away because non-lethal means were used. Given their alien way of thinking and so much instinctive territorial insect behavior non-lethal methods wouldn't do anything to deter them when lethal methods wouldn't even do that. Really the SoT is great for some new tech and magical items and some other things but no way I'd accept such a victory for the CS. If I even allowed for survivors of a group that was expected even in-universe to be totally wiped out by such a powerful enemy it wouldn't be enough to change a losing battle around.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The book for me is is still useful beyond the Sot and Holmes somehow surviving in the Xiticix badlands fiasco. The information is stilll useful. Even if the Xitcix behavior was tossed aside for SOT. The only reason the Cs survived was because Kevin wanted them to win and gave Holmes forces nearly complete plot and script immunity. That's it. I know some do not want to accept let alone concede that happened but it did. SOT was one big railroad and nothing included previously published canon material was going to get in the way.

there you go again, and like i said before you act like they did nothing to defend themselves , with smoke grenades and other non-lethal means

Non-lethal or not. Smoke grenades or not. That means nothing to a very territoril species like the Xicticix. Even then he should have lost at least 50-75% of his forces and vehicles. Hand of god is hand of god plain and simple. When the writer in charge wants a a faction to win he will mak them win. End of story.

hey if you want to find in the books about how does xiticix react to that large number of troops, he losed 23% of his troops , which leadsmme to believe they pick off everyone outside a vechile, then after something happen a large number broke of off for some reason, , then in aftermath its a states a young queen was killed by psi-stalkers so that could explain why a majority broke off from the coalition group to return to the hive, but still leaving thousands to watch and encourage the coalition to keep moving.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

some want to act like the coalition were the only ones in that area, but the xiticix book states otherwise.

[Sureshot]

hey if you want to find in the books about how does xiticix react to that large number of troops, he losed 23% of his troops , which leadsmme to believe they pick off everyone outside a vechile, then after something happen a large number broke of off for some reason, , then in aftermath its a states a young queen was killed by psi-stalkers so that could explain why a majority broke off from the coalition group to return to the hive, but still leaving thousands to watch and encourage the coalition to keep moving.

Holmes losing only 23% of his forces was Kevin making sure that the CS would win. Could some CS have surived yes. To the extent Holmes forces did in the in SOT. No way no how. The Xitixix do not think like the average human does. The CS were supposed to win and by golly previously canon material or not they were going to win.

some want to act like the coalition were the only ones in that area, but the xiticix book states otherwise.

While some refuse to accept that their CS won because of favoritism. With a huge healthy does of plot and script immunity.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

hey if you want to find in the books about how does xiticix react to that large number of troops, he losed 23% of his troops , which leadsmme to believe they pick off everyone outside a vechile, then after something happen a large number broke of off for some reason, , then in aftermath its a states a young queen was killed by psi-stalkers so that could explain why a majority broke off from the coalition group to return to the hive, but still leaving thousands to watch and encourage the coalition to keep moving.

Holmes losing only 23% of his forces was Kevin making sure that the CS would win. Could some CS have surived yes. To the extent Holmes forces did in the in SOT. No way no how. The Xitixix do not think like the average human does. The CS were supposed to win and by golly previously canon material or not they were going to win.

some want to act like the coalition were the only ones in that area, but the xiticix book states otherwise.

While some refuse to accept that their CS won because of favoritism. With a huge healthy does of plot and script immunity.

Much like a lot of nations around rifts earth.

[Glistam]

I think you're all looking at this the wrong way. The real question here, and it's what everyone on the continent who also "knows" about Xiticix behaviors should be asking, is why the Xiticix allowed the CS to just "mosey on through." Since it is a stark contrast to all their known behaviors, but it happened anyway, then again, we should be asking why? There's a follow-up story here just waiting to be discovered and told. Instead of griping about it, we should be telling it.

[Nightmask]

I think you're all looking at this the wrong way. The real question here, and it's what everyone on the continent who also "knows" about Xiticix behaviors should be asking, is why the Xiticix allowed the CS to just "mosey on through." Since it is a stark contrast to all their known behaviors, but it happened anyway, then again, we should be asking why? There's a follow-up story here just waiting to be discovered and told. Instead of griping about it, we should be telling it.

So the CS has some secret CS Xitixic Repellent a la Batman and his Bat Shark Repellent?

[Hystrix]

No, he took his troops through Xiticix territory, not through the heart

Oh my mistake, I was going off of memory.

If they did not go threw the heartlands of the hivelands, why is it such a big deal
to everyone that he lived at all then ?

Because the Xiticix brought more than enough force to bear on his location, that he and the entirety of the forces under his command should have been destroyed by them, easily, EXCEPT that the Hand Of God interceded and made the Xiticix act in a way that they'd never, ever, ever, ever acted before (you could be a herd of wild, DUMB, UNARMED animals and the Xiticix would go insane before the ret-con, slaughtering all in sight just for the crime of being there, forget about an entire armed Coalition Army Corps).

It was analogous to having a bunch of sailors in the water, many of them bleeding profusely, but all of a sudden all of the sharks around them take only a few bites out of a few sailors, and then swim off.

There was also the utterly unbelievable spectacle of the Hand Of God rewriting basic human behaviour so that all those troops got slaughtered -horribly -and yet they didn't fire a single solitary shot back at the attackers, not even under panic and the pain of gruesome death.

You know any humans, anywhere, who would follow such orders in the midst of such incredible carnage (at least seventy-five THOUSAND gruesome deaths)??

<sigh> I really wish posts like this would get squashed before they start (and, no, I don't just mean cornholios). This argument has been done to death, and it already been explained by Wayne Smith how it all worked.

The truth is that Holmes pulled a manuver that NO ONE else could do and will likely NEVER happen again.

Most folks are upset because CS forces survived, and that's about it.

[Kagashi]

WB 23 is canon and so are the CS War series.
We know that the Xiticix aren't going to tolerate a "military parade" but we also know that Holmes and his crew did just that. They might seem like mutually exclusive facts but they aren't.
We don't know HOW Holmes and his crew managed to get through, all we know is that they did.
Some outside force could have shielded them from the Xiticix - Holmes and his crew wouldn't even necessarily have to realize that they were aided. The Vanguard could even be capable of such a feat if their numbers and capabilities were far higher than credited. Splynncryth and a Splugorth buddy could have been waging a bet on the war and whichever one was betting on the CS felt the need to cheat by protecting the parade.
There are lots of ways that they could have survived without contradicting canon - just because we don't know how it was achieved doesn't mean it is impossible.

This.

[Sureshot]

Most folks are upset because CS forces survived, and that's about it.

No most folks are not upset that the Cs forces survived. Some us are upset because a unrealistic amount of CS forces survived. Enough to be thrown straight into combat. Without any reasonable explanation. Beyond the CS suddenly having up until the SOT a "secret CS Xitixic repellent". With the Xitcix suddenly acting totally out of character from what is in canon.

[PhellaOne]

And to be fair, Gen Holmes did lose 25% of his force.

Should've lost them all, IMO. I've been part of a convoy in hostile territory before (a few times, actually), and to think that the Xiticix (as described in WB23) wouldn't have wiped them out is, IMO, just the author trying to FORCE a surprise twist.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I think you're all looking at this the wrong way. The real question here, and it's what everyone on the continent who also "knows" about Xiticix behaviors should be asking, is why the Xiticix allowed the CS to just "mosey on through." Since it is a stark contrast to all their known behaviors, but it happened anyway, then again, we should be asking why? There's a follow-up story here just waiting to be discovered and told. Instead of griping about it, we should be telling it.

Because simply put most of these arguments are pointless and most do the knee jerk reaction, if you signed up to sound off board you would see what I mean. But like I said before in aftermath it was stated psi-stalkers kill a young queen somewhere around the time jericho was doing his Sunday drive thru country with kids in the back seat. Could this explain why, the majority broke off and lefts a smaller group to just harass and keep the coalition moving, it could have, but this to some who seem to just over look this part. Is it possible psi-stalkers took advantage of this and attack the hive and did some damage, which caused a number of xiticix to stop attack the coaltition and fly back to the hive and defend against the intruders after one queen was killed? It's possible , but some rather say it Hand of God protecting the coalition, then look for answers.

[DhAkael]

And to be fair, Gen Holmes did lose 25% of his force.

Should've lost them all, IMO. I've been part of a convoy in hostile territory before (a few times, actually), and to think that the Xiticix (as described in WB23) wouldn't have wiped them out is, IMO, just the author trying to FORCE a surprise twist.

Standard swarm (when the Xix get really annoyed) measures into the tens of hundreds.
Add to that their weapons are invisible and silent and completely undetectable until the holes suddenly start getting punched into the duralloy and plas-steel (thus you're gonna have at MINIMUM, several dozen grunts getting fragged in the first few seconds of combat); yeah... Jericho Holmes aint a military genius, He's a [censored] Gen Ursakar E. Creed level "Tactical genius". http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/image.php?u=18066&type=sigpic&dateline=1297327099
...meaning he had plot immunity and the rules got broke off-camera.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The book for me is is still useful beyond the Sot and Holmes somehow surviving in the Xiticix badlands fiasco. The information is stilll useful. Even if the Xitcix behavior was tossed aside for SOT. The only reason the Cs survived was because Kevin wanted them to win and gave Holmes forces nearly complete plot and script immunity. That's it. I know some do not want to accept let alone concede that happened but it did. SOT was one big railroad and nothing included previously published canon material was going to get in the way.

there you go again, and like i said before you act like they did nothing to defend themselves , with smoke grenades and other non-lethal means

Non-lethal or not. Smoke grenades or not. That means nothing to a very territoril species like the Xicticix. Even then he should have lost at least 50-75% of his forces and vehicles. Hand of god is hand of god plain and simple. When the writer in charge wants a a faction to win he will mak them win. End of story.

Plus not like they've any reason to just give up and go away because non-lethal means were used. Given their alien way of thinking and so much instinctive territorial insect behavior non-lethal methods wouldn't do anything to deter them when lethal methods wouldn't even do that. Really the SoT is great for some new tech and magical items and some other things but no way I'd accept such a victory for the CS. If I even allowed for survivors of a group that was expected even in-universe to be totally wiped out by such a powerful enemy it wouldn't be enough to change a losing battle around.

They're alien bug men. You can't say how they'll react.... because, they're alien bug men. For all we know after weeks of killing they got bored of kicking the guy that wouldn't fight back and meandered off.

Trying to enforce "Real world" Logic on ALIEN BUG MEN is silly. We can draw parelles, and make assumptions but in the end.. they're alien bug men. They do weird things, they don't think like humans or like animals or really just like bugs, because they're none of these things. They're weird meshes of them and their motivations and reactions are --alien--. Trying to humanize them is folly, because they're not human nor even from this planet.

Did they act in an unexpected way? Yes. So do animals FROM Earth, all over the planet all the time. Noone had ever tried to move an army, slowly through the edge of the hivelands. They have seen Xit responses to small groups they could wipe out with little effort, but never reaction to such an event.

New event. New Reaction. Nothing more. Nothing less. Very few animals will attack something, and keep on and keep on and keep on and keep on attacking it if it doesn't fight back. They'll attack hurt it.... and then pause.. and maybe attack again, confused why ____ isn't running or fighting back. Maybe again.. and a few more times, but by and large they don't obliterate things. If after multiple attacks they get no reaction, most animals just leave. Again the Xit's are no more 'earth animals' than they are 'humans' or 'bugs' but it's not inconceivable, that with such a large force, and them killing one hundred thousand men... with no SIGNIFICANT retaliation.. the bugs simply got confused and a bit tired of killing the thing that wasn't fighting back, and just watched them leave. Remember the bugs can be weird. They can zoom in and destroy parties out of nowhere.. or... one might come down and 'challenge' a guy, fight to the death.. and his buddies don't just suddenly go ape poop and kill everyone. They pick up their fallen guy and just leave. The bugs are just -weird-. They're supposed to be. They're not of this world.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think you're all looking at this the wrong way. The real question here, and it's what everyone on the continent who also "knows" about Xiticix behaviors should be asking, is why the Xiticix allowed the CS to just "mosey on through." Since it is a stark contrast to all their known behaviors, but it happened anyway, then again, we should be asking why? There's a follow-up story here just waiting to be discovered and told. Instead of griping about it, we should be telling it.

Slaughtering one hundred thousand guys in full out MD armor, tanks, APCs, Power armor, ect isn't just mosying on through. The people that don't like it constantly ignore the horror and death that did occur. How taxing it would be on the troops that did survive and how horrific it must be to slow crawl through a meat grinder where one in 4 of your buddies got ripped apart by giant bipedal mutant alien bug monsters.

Statements like "Mosey on through" and 'They only lost 1/4th of their men!!' and "Lost such a small number' and stuff blatently ignores it was one hundred thousand troops. More than decimate, two and a half times that. It was ---huge--- loses. People just aren't comprehending it very well. Look around your house. Imagine one in 4 people being killed. Horrific right? Now multiply that by 100,000 Your neighbor, all their neighbors, probably every house in your town, all losing one in 4. Imagine how many people you work with. Now take out one fourth of them. Imagine the people in your church. Now 1/4th gone, or if you don't go to church, maybe your Wow guild, or your knittingclub, or your RPG group.

The loss of one fourth of a military unit is a huge loss. The loss of 100,000 isn't a 'hand wave'. It's a signifigant and dramatic thing. Those that don't like the SoT/Xit thing ignore that as hard as they can. They make flip comments "It should have been more" and repeatedly act like Holmes just 'Moseyed on through unmolested" or "Took small losses" ect.

It was a huge thing and the losses were massive. They were not 'complete'. Which seems to be the only answer many people want. "Well, we think the alien bugs act this way so they can never change. So everyone should have died. Glistim has a GOOD point. The bugs acted differently than people thought they would.

Why?

IN GAME... Why? Not 'Becauze Kevin' wanted the CS to live! MEH!!!"

Real In game reason, why? There's dozens of possibilitys, but "Kevin's lazy and got bored after 5 or 6 books and just hand waved this crap and printed it to stealz my monies" isn't a reason I easily entertain. There's thought process beyond it. Kevin hasn't gone deeper into it. We all presumed it'd be addressed when the CS finally went up to clean up the Bugs. Stuff that's been foreshadowed since.. well the Xit book but especially since aftermath.

Thing is the Minion War is coming and I think that's going to side track the CS's plans. Wither the Demon/Deevils forces take out some of the bugs will remain to be seen but if the CS is fighting the plagues and the demons and deevils, I don't think they'll be taking on the Xits at the same time.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think you're all looking at this the wrong way. The real question here, and it's what everyone on the continent who also "knows" about Xiticix behaviors should be asking, is why the Xiticix allowed the CS to just "mosey on through." Since it is a stark contrast to all their known behaviors, but it happened anyway, then again, we should be asking why? There's a follow-up story here just waiting to be discovered and told. Instead of griping about it, we should be telling it.

So the CS has some secret CS Xitixic Repellent a la Batman and his Bat Shark Repellent?

Maybe the bug queen saw tolkeen as a threat and figured the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Probably not in those 'human' words but the general idea.

Tolkeen was closer to the hive lands. It thrummed with PPE. Had dragons and all sorts of demons and stuff there. the Xit queen might have seen it as a 'Compeating hive'. So they LET the CS go through to kill them once it became clear the CS weren't there to kill the bugs? Your rank and file bugs act as much in instinct as thought but the queens have high IQ's. They might not think about the concept of souls and fluffy bunny paintings and stuff but they can identify close threats and see someone else killing them and figure "Hey, let these other black insects do our work"

There's lots of possibilities. Is this what happened? We don't know. We Really don't. But it's possible. So are 50 other possibilities I could come up with, with out even pausing.

[Pepsi Jedi]

And to be fair, Gen Holmes did lose 25% of his force.

Should've lost them all, IMO. I've been part of a convoy in hostile territory before (a few times, actually), and to think that the Xiticix (as described in WB23) wouldn't have wiped them out is, IMO, just the author trying to FORCE a surprise twist.

Standard swarm (when the Xix get really annoyed) measures into the tens of hundreds.
Add to that their weapons are invisible and silent and completely undetectable until the holes suddenly start getting punched into the duralloy and plas-steel (thus you're gonna have at MINIMUM, several dozen grunts getting fragged in the first few seconds of combat); yeah... Jericho Holmes aint a military genius, He's a [censored] Gen Ursakar E. Creed level "Tactical genius". http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/image.php?u=18066&type=sigpic&dateline=1297327099
...meaning he had plot immunity and the rules got broke off-camera.

The hivelands are pretty hard to miss. So are thousands of 9 foot tall MDC bugs flying in the air. It's not going to be a secret youre going into the hivelands. They change the landscape for MILES around the hives. Nor are the Xit's what you'd call stealthy. (( Some can be but the masses are not)) It's not like the CS didn't know they were rolling into a meat grinder.

Actually read the book, Holmes had everyone pile into the APCs and Robots and stuff. They weren't just strolling and swatting at the Xit's like gnats, going 'Shoo shoo'. They were buttoned up in MDC armored vehicles and robots.

[Sureshot]

Holmes was supposed to survive. With as many men as he did sorry no not buying it. No way are you going to convince me is all they had to do was ride inside Apcs hide and not react to be safe. The Xiticiix swarm like bees when disturbed. Sure if you stand still and I mean absolutely still your safe mostly. Move even a little and you get stung many times. I know i had the joy of accidently stepping on a hive when I was younger. I got stung. Not too badly because I ran like the wind but if you think that standing still and doing nothing would have helped in anyway. Well your dreaming to be blunt. I expected Holmes to survive his trip through the badlands. Where imo he should have lost 50-75% of his troops. A large part of his equipment and be in a very battered state. Instead they come out of the baldans written to be tossed into combat. With a decent chunck of their equipemnt intact. That is what bothers fans like myself and why some like myself feel that section is unbeilvable. Now if holmes joined up with the rest of the CS army. Resupplied, rearmend and offloaded his inkured men then imo much more beleivable.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Holmes was supposed to survive. With as many men as he did sorry no not buying it. No way are you going to convince me is all they had to do was ride inside Apcs hide and not react to be safe. The Xiticiix swarm like bees when disturbed. Sure if you stand still and I mean absolutely still your safe mostly. Move even a little and you get stung many times. I know i had the joy of accidently stepping on a hive when I was younger. I got stung. Not too badly because I ran like the wind but if you think that standing still and doing nothing would have helped in anyway. Well your dreaming to be blunt. I expected Holmes to survive his trip through the badlands. Where imo he should have lost 50-75% of his troops. A large part of his equipment and be in a very battered state. Instead they come out of the baldans written to be tossed into combat. With a decent chunck of their equipemnt intact. That is what bothers fans like myself and why some like myself feel that section is unbeilvable. Now if holmes joined up with the rest of the CS army. Resupplied, rearmend and offloaded his inkured men then imo much more beleivable.

And you're still assuming the Xits will react exactly the same as earth insects. There's ya problem. They're alien creatures that do weird stuff. Assuming they're going to be like the bees you stepped on as a kid is folly.

And who knows... if you were crazy enough to try instead of screaming and running..... maybe after stinging you for a while the bees would have meandered off. I doubt you'd be willing to lose one fourth of your body to find out, but that's the point. You don't know how long you'd have been stung if you stood there, because you've never tried it.

Noone had ever tried this tactic with the Xits so no one knew what would happen. Same thing with your bees.

[PhellaOne]

They're alien bug men. You can't say how they'll react....
because, they're alien bug men.

This is 100% completely wrong. We know exactly how they would react
as its wrote how they would react in the Xitixic world book.

Your clearly reaching with this here. Its very clear you toss out canon
to suit your whim's if it favor's the CS, while trying to hold to rifter
material again cause it suits your whim and makes the CS a more powerful
force.

Agreed. No offense PJ, but I thought it was pretty clear in WB23.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

They're alien bug men. You can't say how they'll react....
because, they're alien bug men.

This is 100% completely wrong. We know exactly how they would react
as its wrote how they would react in the Xitixic world book.

Your clearly reaching with this here. Its very clear you toss out canon
to suit your whim's if it favor's the CS, while trying to hold to rifter
material again cause it suits your whim and makes the CS a more powerful
force.

Agreed. No offense PJ, but I thought it was pretty clear in WB23.

Did the book cover large military unit getting pushed in the hive land and moving slow?