Love It or Leave It; Mega-Damage Poll

[Wooly]

If you look at Chaos earth MD weapons were even more rare at the coming of the Rifts. If the 1:100 ratio stands only the military, armed with MD weapons would be left alive. Everyone else would be monster chow. It only makes sense to me that a everyone else (civilians, cops, etc) armed with SD weapons (with a 1MD to 10 SD ratio) would have at least have a fighting, abiet difficult chance against MD monsters.

Even cheap MD weapons are too expensive for a dirt farmer in the wilderness. I suspect the MD shotgun rounds introduced in the new Black Market Sourcebook will address part of this problem with a cheap MD shotgun firing low MD damage rounds.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'd definetely be inclinfed to believe that, especially since vibro-knives possess near-medical prescision as of Chaos Earth. I think the real problem would be trying to maintain control on a normal strike roll, since you don't want to go carving the thing up and the deers body isn't really slowing down the knife in the least.

Being a bit squeamish I'd be more concerned about slashing it and having to watch it spilling all of its internal organs all over the place in a scene more suited to a slasher film. But if you're slashing along its side rather than having it charging at you there isn't much to worry about in regards to being injured by it, particularly if you're using MDC level protection.

I'm not particularly squeamish, but once the Sustain spell got published, I stopped hunting entirely. If you can avoid it, hunting is a huge waste of time.

--flatline

The human body needs to eat. The mechanics involved release much needed hormones, antibodies, and nutrients. As your GM I would allow you to use the sustain spell, but not forgo the need the eat fresh vegetables, fruit, or even meat. Of course this is coming from a biology major

That kind of defeats the purpose of the spell, which explicitly replaces all need to consume food for the duration of the spell.

Or you know, you could just buy rations or normal food before you leave town when you're buying fuel, anmmo, and other things you need and not worry too much about it at all.

[Damian Magecraft]

why does everyone insist that the ratio and existence of mdc inevitably leads to the whole sale slaughter of all "poor wilderness folks"?
contrary to popular thought MDC critters are not lurking around every single bush in the out back of NA...
Kevin said it himself (cant recall which book but I think its in the Adventure Guide) they dont write about the mundane because they believe that is not what will hook us into reading World Book XYZ. (personally I wouldnt mind an all sdc "Vagabonds Guide to Survival in the Wilds of Rifts" book of the mundane for Rifts but thats just me.)
The Ratio is just fine as is...
but if a change is considered by the Powers That Be...
I would suggest adding a mid range tier (call it Heavy Damage for want of a better name) that can damage the mdc tier and can be damaged by the sdc tier...

[Pepsi Jedi]

lol I'm not sure adding in ANOTHER kinda damage is going to simplify things.

[Mad Cow Milk]

I would like to add-I voted and would like to see (as I've noticed many others do as well) something like 1:10. I know this would take some careful attention perhaps a total rework of the entire setting, but still I would like to see it.

+1

I would be more inclined to be okay with MDC weapons if we saw SDC pistols that did 20-160 SDC damage with a single bullet. The drastic change between SDC and MDC is just too drastic, plus makes things too lethal for most SDC beings to even survive in an environment .

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's why they put on armor. Being shot with a gun should be lethal.

[Mad Cow Milk]

That's why they put on armor. Being shot with a gun should be lethal.

Not many can really afford even simple MDC clothing.

[Killer Cyborg]

That's why they put on armor. Being shot with a gun should be lethal.

Not many can really afford even simple MDC clothing.

That's what makes the setting dark and deadly.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's why they put on armor. Being shot with a gun should be lethal.

Not many can really afford even simple MDC clothing.

Nor can many people IRL Afford ballistic armor.... so it's best if they never get shot. lol

(( As a side note, I'm only partially kidding. It is true))

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's why they put on armor. Being shot with a gun should be lethal.

In point of fact, the statistics for surviving a single gunshot wound are relatively good. Its only after 2+ rounds (any caliber) that survival rates start to plummet.

Please define "Relatively good"? lol

[Galroth]

That's why they put on armor. Being shot with a gun should be lethal.

In point of fact, the statistics for surviving a single gunshot wound are relatively good. Its only after 2+ rounds (any caliber) that survival rates start to plummet.

Please define "Relatively good"? lol

Worse than having zero bullet holes in you and better than having 2 bullet holes in your body?

[Wooly]

That's why they put on armor. Being shot with a gun should be lethal.

Not many can really afford even simple MDC clothing.

Nor can many people IRL Afford ballistic armor.... so it's best if they never get shot. lol

(( As a side note, I'm only partially kidding. It is true))

You can buy military style NIJ Level III armor including the NIJ Level IVSAPI side and chest/back plates for a couple grand. Hardly unaffordable. Plenty of Soldiers and Marines were buying their own armor back in 2003-2005 during the Iraq war before IBAs were widely available.

[Balabanto]

I've been using 1-10 since I started. I feel it better reflects the world as written. It also means that a battle with low grade md weapons doesn't end with a single swing, and adds a little more drama when sdc beings are down to their last armor. Otherwise, too many battles end with "@#!!! this! My armor is gone! I surrender!" Every battle shouldn't end with "What do I do with the villain? He surrendered."

[flatline]

I've been using 1-10 since I started. I feel it better reflects the world as written. It also means that a battle with low grade md weapons doesn't end with a single swing, and adds a little more drama when sdc beings are down to their last armor. Otherwise, too many battles end with "@#!!! this! My armor is gone! I surrender!" Every battle shouldn't end with "What do I do with the villain? He surrendered."

I guess it works that way if you play with the GI Joe rule (armor is destroyed without damaging the occupant). That rule didn't exist when we played and so if you were going to surrender, you had to do it before your armor was gone unless you were MDC yourself.

If I were to start a new group today, we wouldn't use the GI Joe rule and kinetic damage would hurt you even before your armor is destroyed, so if you wanted to surrender, you would have to do it at the start of combat...

--flatline

[Nightmask]

I've been using 1-10 since I started. I feel it better reflects the world as written. It also means that a battle with low grade md weapons doesn't end with a single swing, and adds a little more drama when sdc beings are down to their last armor. Otherwise, too many battles end with "@#!!! this! My armor is gone! I surrender!" Every battle shouldn't end with "What do I do with the villain? He surrendered."

You want to encourage the players to kill their opponents? I'm also not getting how you think the 1:10 ratio better reflects things, when it makes mega-damage tanks and power armor vulnerable to what logically should be incapable of even scratching the paint job let alone damaging or destroying it. Plus some guy with a pile of SDC hand guns shouldn't even remotely have a chance to cause any damage at all to a dragon or other MDC creature.

[Balabanto]

I've been using 1-10 since I started. I feel it better reflects the world as written. It also means that a battle with low grade md weapons doesn't end with a single swing, and adds a little more drama when sdc beings are down to their last armor. Otherwise, too many battles end with "@#!!! this! My armor is gone! I surrender!" Every battle shouldn't end with "What do I do with the villain? He surrendered."

I guess it works that way if you play with the GI Joe rule (armor is destroyed without damaging the occupant). That rule didn't exist when we played and so if you were going to surrender, you had to do it before your armor was gone unless you were MDC yourself.

--flatline

We play with thresholds for everything. Armor is 50, Psionic FF is 40, Magic FF is 20, except for Invincible Armor (GI Joe Infinite), Technological Force Field is 40. Force fields can be stacked, but people still get killed. I whacked an NPC grackletooth who was with the group this sunday. He got flattened in the middle of a Hail spell, and he was just summarily pulped. The worst part is, the PC's liked this guy. Oh, well.

For the most part, I don't want to encourage players to kill their opponents, but I don't want everything to be a constant moral dilemma over what to do with the villain, either. Rifts has vast swaths of wilderness. You don't always have an opportunity to bring someone to justice or to trial. Sometimes, these types of things are awesome. But if it's happening EVERY WEEK, there's something wrong.

As for a guy with SDC handguns causing damage to a dragon or SDC creature, the amount of SDC the gun causes would have to be truly significant for me to allow that. Use common sense here. If someone finds a sixteen inch gun from the Battleship New Jersey, and fires it at Bob the Dragon, and it actually hits, that should do significant damage. If someone fires a Colt .45 at a dragon, then it probably shouldn't.

So GI-Joe does have limits in my game, except where the text of spells specifically contradicts it.

[Nightmask]

I've been using 1-10 since I started. I feel it better reflects the world as written. It also means that a battle with low grade md weapons doesn't end with a single swing, and adds a little more drama when sdc beings are down to their last armor. Otherwise, too many battles end with "@#!!! this! My armor is gone! I surrender!" Every battle shouldn't end with "What do I do with the villain? He surrendered."

I guess it works that way if you play with the GI Joe rule (armor is destroyed without damaging the occupant). That rule didn't exist when we played and so if you were going to surrender, you had to do it before your armor was gone unless you were MDC yourself.

--flatline

We play with thresholds for everything. Armor is 50, Psionic FF is 40, Magic FF is 20, except for Invincible Armor (GI Joe Infinite), Technological Force Field is 40. Force fields can be stacked, but people still get killed. I whacked an NPC grackletooth who was with the group this sunday. He got flattened in the middle of a Hail spell, and he was just summarily pulped. The worst part is, the PC's liked this guy. Oh, well.

For the most part, I don't want to encourage players to kill their opponents, but I don't want everything to be a constant moral dilemma over what to do with the villain, either. Rifts has vast swaths of wilderness. You don't always have an opportunity to bring someone to justice or to trial. Sometimes, these types of things are awesome. But if it's happening EVERY WEEK, there's something wrong.

As for a guy with SDC handguns causing damage to a dragon or SDC creature, the amount of SDC the gun causes would have to be truly significant for me to allow that. Use common sense here. If someone finds a sixteen inch gun from the Battleship New Jersey, and fires it at Bob the Dragon, and it actually hits, that should do significant damage. If someone fires a Colt .45 at a dragon, then it probably shouldn't.

So GI-Joe does have limits in my game, except where the text of spells specifically contradicts it.

The gun for the New Jersey would qualify as a MD weapon so it should be damaging a dragon if it's used against one, whereas having Mega-damage be just 10 times what SDC is means conventional handguns and the like can harm a MDC target with good rolls which they shouldn't. You majorly unbalance the game as the 1:100 ratio is what everything's built around, you can't do a simplistic patch by knocking off a zero and alter nothing else without leaving a serious imbalance.

[Wooly]

I've been using 1-10 since I started. I feel it better reflects the world as written. It also means that a battle with low grade md weapons doesn't end with a single swing, and adds a little more drama when sdc beings are down to their last armor. Otherwise, too many battles end with "@#!!! this! My armor is gone! I surrender!" Every battle shouldn't end with "What do I do with the villain? He surrendered."

I guess it works that way if you play with the GI Joe rule (armor is destroyed without damaging the occupant). That rule didn't exist when we played and so if you were going to surrender, you had to do it before your armor was gone unless you were MDC yourself.

--flatline

We play with thresholds for everything. Armor is 50, Psionic FF is 40, Magic FF is 20, except for Invincible Armor (GI Joe Infinite), Technological Force Field is 40. Force fields can be stacked, but people still get killed. I whacked an NPC grackletooth who was with the group this sunday. He got flattened in the middle of a Hail spell, and he was just summarily pulped. The worst part is, the PC's liked this guy. Oh, well.

For the most part, I don't want to encourage players to kill their opponents, but I don't want everything to be a constant moral dilemma over what to do with the villain, either. Rifts has vast swaths of wilderness. You don't always have an opportunity to bring someone to justice or to trial. Sometimes, these types of things are awesome. But if it's happening EVERY WEEK, there's something wrong.

As for a guy with SDC handguns causing damage to a dragon or SDC creature, the amount of SDC the gun causes would have to be truly significant for me to allow that. Use common sense here. If someone finds a sixteen inch gun from the Battleship New Jersey, and fires it at Bob the Dragon, and it actually hits, that should do significant damage. If someone fires a Colt .45 at a dragon, then it probably shouldn't.

So GI-Joe does have limits in my game, except where the text of spells specifically contradicts it.

The gun for the New Jersey would qualify as a MD weapon so it should be damaging a dragon if it's used against one, whereas having Mega-damage be just 10 times what SDC is means conventional handguns and the like can harm a MDC target with good rolls which they shouldn't. You majorly unbalance the game as the 1:100 ratio is what everything's built around, you can't do a simplistic patch by knocking off a zero and alter nothing else without leaving a serious imbalance.

I agree. But 16 inch naval guns aren't a regular occurance in campaigns I have run and played in anyway. Heavy artillery and large bombs should be in a catagory all their own. I also think such weapons don't fit well into the type of games I like to run and play in. The Palladium system is cumbersome even at the squad level. I think it is ridiclious to use it for fighting capital ships against one another.

[Incriptus]

I think some people missed the golden age arms race. Almost literally countries were making weapons and armor and human augmentation for FUN! You know every movie that suffers a disaster they explain how we now have more weapons than people. That's how I've always imagined Rifts Earth, more guns that people who can use them. The factories that were salvaged or retrofitted by people like Wilks & The Northern Gun, they were designed to create weapons for a population of 100's of Millons. I have no problem with a wilderness community of 30-40 people having a few MD weapons amongst them. While that is not enough to stop a dedicated demon from destroying the community. Most Predators supernatural or not, don't like getting shot, even once. Some of you may be shocked to learn, even without powerful teeth and claws rabbits still live in the same forests as wolves.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's why they put on armor. Being shot with a gun should be lethal.

Not many can really afford even simple MDC clothing.

Nor can many people IRL Afford ballistic armor.... so it's best if they never get shot. lol

(( As a side note, I'm only partially kidding. It is true))

You can buy military style NIJ Level III armor including the NIJ Level IVSAPI side and chest/back plates for a couple grand. Hardly unaffordable. Plenty of Soldiers and Marines were buying their own armor back in 2003-2005 during the Iraq war before IBAs were widely available.

You don't see it on the street, for people going to buy a slurpee. "A couple of grand" for people getting shot at every day, Soldiers and Marines, yes, prioritize. Get the armor and buy the car later. Most people don't have a couple of grand just laying around though. Paying thousands of dollars for the armor that is 'void' after it's first encounter with a bullet is not really affordable. Yes, a few grand is worth more than your life. But unless you're a professional soldier, most civilians don't output that much cash into armor.

(( Sort of like rifts, where most people don't have MDC armor, but the 'soldiers' and such do (( your adventurers)) because they're much more likely to get shot at.


(( Totally unrelated side note to the thread, but wasn't that practice shut down by the military? (Doesn't pertain to thread, just something half rememberd in my weird brain)) I seem to remember something happening that prevented the military from using commercial armor even if it was better?))

[Wooly]

That's why they put on armor. Being shot with a gun should be lethal.

Not many can really afford even simple MDC clothing.

Nor can many people IRL Afford ballistic armor.... so it's best if they never get shot. lol

(( As a side note, I'm only partially kidding. It is true))

You can buy military style NIJ Level III armor including the NIJ Level IVSAPI side and chest/back plates for a couple grand. Hardly unaffordable. Plenty of Soldiers and Marines were buying their own armor back in 2003-2005 during the Iraq war before IBAs were widely available.

You don't see it on the street, for people going to buy a slurpee. "A couple of grand" for people getting shot at every day, Soldiers and Marines, yes, prioritize. Get the armor and buy the car later. Most people don't have a couple of grand just laying around though. Paying thousands of dollars for the armor that is 'void' after it's first encounter with a bullet is not really affordable. Yes, a few grand is worth more than your life. But unless you're a professional soldier, most civilians don't output that much cash into armor.

(( Sort of like rifts, where most people don't have MDC armor, but the 'soldiers' and such do (( your adventurers)) because they're much more likely to get shot at.


(( Totally unrelated side note to the thread, but wasn't that practice shut down by the military? (Doesn't pertain to thread, just something half rememberd in my weird brain)) I seem to remember something happening that prevented the military from using commercial armor even if it was better?))

Depends on your unit on what you can get away with gear wise. If it looks just like the issue stuff how will anyone know? Generally speaking and rightly so the military doesn't like personnel using un tested off the shelf gear particularly for things like weapons (Marines putting a short barrel commerical upper reciever on your M16A4 lower) and body armor.

If you don't have MD armor in Rifts it is because you can't afford it not because you don't want it. The only people that don't need it are those in the rare protected areas.

You can buy used police II and IIIA vests for a few hundred bucks. Body armor is affordable even at the most expensive level. The average American has more than 2K in disposable income a year and you can bet if it was more like Syria around here people would be buying it.

The military grade SAPI plates are multipule hit resistant so is soft body armor. Protection is not void. Where are you getting this stuff from?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Not many can really afford even simple MDC clothing.

Nor can many people IRL Afford ballistic armor.... so it's best if they never get shot. lol

(( As a side note, I'm only partially kidding. It is true))

You can buy military style NIJ Level III armor including the NIJ Level IVSAPI side and chest/back plates for a couple grand. Hardly unaffordable. Plenty of Soldiers and Marines were buying their own armor back in 2003-2005 during the Iraq war before IBAs were widely available.

You don't see it on the street, for people going to buy a slurpee. "A couple of grand" for people getting shot at every day, Soldiers and Marines, yes, prioritize. Get the armor and buy the car later. Most people don't have a couple of grand just laying around though. Paying thousands of dollars for the armor that is 'void' after it's first encounter with a bullet is not really affordable. Yes, a few grand is worth more than your life. But unless you're a professional soldier, most civilians don't output that much cash into armor.

(( Sort of like rifts, where most people don't have MDC armor, but the 'soldiers' and such do (( your adventurers)) because they're much more likely to get shot at.


(( Totally unrelated side note to the thread, but wasn't that practice shut down by the military? (Doesn't pertain to thread, just something half rememberd in my weird brain)) I seem to remember something happening that prevented the military from using commercial armor even if it was better?))

Depends on your unit on what you can get away with gear wise. If it looks just like the issue stuff how will anyone know? Generally speaking and rightly so the military doesn't like personnel using un tested off the shelf gear particularly for things like weapons (Marines putting a short barrel commerical upper reciever on your M16A4 lower) and body armor.

If you don't have MD armor in Rifts it is because you can't afford it not because you don't want it. The only people that don't need it are those in the rare protected areas.

You can buy used police II and IIIA vests for a few hundred bucks. Body armor is affordable even at the most expensive level. The average American has more than 2K in disposable income a year and you can bet if it was more like Syria around here people would be buying it.

The military grade SAPI plates are multipule hit resistant so is soft body armor. Protection is not void. Where are you getting this stuff from?

So... "yes" the military has orders/rules/regs against using it.

And yeah if I lived in Rifts earth I'd want it, but it ain't cheep.

As for buying used police vests, don't they have shelf life? As in the armor's efficiency degrades over time? And commercially available lower quality armor is just that? Lower quality? Unless you pay multiple thousands that is. In one way you'd think "Well crappy armor is better than no armor" which in a way could be right, but on the other hand trusting in crappy second hand or used, or knock off or lessor armors could get you killed. If you trust it to stop a bullet and it's just crap. (( even the best armors we have these days don't stop bullets every time and often only low velocity rounds.))

If things were more like Syria around here, the market price for said armor would go way up as well wouldn't it? The US is nothing if not capitalistic.

I will admit I've not tried to buy 'Real' armor myself, but it costing thousands of dollars does prevent such. (( and.. i don't live in Syria so it's use would be limited.))

I guess it comes back to definitions of 'Affordable'. Modern day bullet proof vests aren't priced to the point where ---noone--- could get um. They are priced to the point where "most" Don't. And even then, they are a huge far cry from Rifts Environmental armors. Today's armor usually only covers the torso.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

As someone mentioned above, lack of cheap MD weapons and MDC armor amongst the populace is one of the reasons the human population is still so low 300 years after the Cataclysm. There is a constant and gruesome rate of attrition that grinds the fragile mortal beings down year after year.

Think about it, even with the near total destruction of civilization, given the remaining high technology and many millions of survivors, the world could have easily been populated back to pre-Cataclysm levels in three centuries. It hasn't been, and that's how the setting is supposed to be. There is no need to justify or question why more high tech weaponry and armor isn't available to every woodsmen, farmer, and laborer.

[flatline]

So... "yes" the military has orders/rules/regs against using it.

And yeah if I lived in Rifts earth I'd want it, but it ain't cheep.

As for buying used police vests, don't they have shelf life? As in the armor's efficiency degrades over time? And commercially available lower quality armor is just that? Lower quality? Unless you pay multiple thousands that is. In one way you'd think "Well crappy armor is better than no armor" which in a way could be right, but on the other hand trusting in crappy second hand or used, or knock off or lessor armors could get you killed. If you trust it to stop a bullet and it's just crap. (( even the best armors we have these days don't stop bullets every time and often only low velocity rounds.))

If things were more like Syria around here, the market price for said armor would go way up as well wouldn't it? The US is nothing if not capitalistic.

I will admit I've not tried to buy 'Real' armor myself, but it costing thousands of dollars does prevent such. (( and.. i don't live in Syria so it's use would be limited.))

I guess it comes back to definitions of 'Affordable'. Modern day bullet proof vests aren't priced to the point where ---noone--- could get um. They are priced to the point where "most" Don't. And even then, they are a huge far cry from Rifts Environmental armors. Today's armor usually only covers the torso.

Just went to Ebay. Found lots of ballistic armor for less than $400.

Whether or not you trust these listings is entirely up to you.

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

So... "yes" the military has orders/rules/regs against using it.

And yeah if I lived in Rifts earth I'd want it, but it ain't cheep.

As for buying used police vests, don't they have shelf life? As in the armor's efficiency degrades over time? And commercially available lower quality armor is just that? Lower quality? Unless you pay multiple thousands that is. In one way you'd think "Well crappy armor is better than no armor" which in a way could be right, but on the other hand trusting in crappy second hand or used, or knock off or lessor armors could get you killed. If you trust it to stop a bullet and it's just crap. (( even the best armors we have these days don't stop bullets every time and often only low velocity rounds.))

If things were more like Syria around here, the market price for said armor would go way up as well wouldn't it? The US is nothing if not capitalistic.

I will admit I've not tried to buy 'Real' armor myself, but it costing thousands of dollars does prevent such. (( and.. i don't live in Syria so it's use would be limited.))

I guess it comes back to definitions of 'Affordable'. Modern day bullet proof vests aren't priced to the point where ---noone--- could get um. They are priced to the point where "most" Don't. And even then, they are a huge far cry from Rifts Environmental armors. Today's armor usually only covers the torso.

Just went to Ebay. Found lots of ballistic armor for less than $400.

Whether or not you trust these listings is entirely up to you.

--flatline

That's exactly the point. lol if you buy 'real' armor off Ebay for $400, you deserve the death you'd no doubt receive if you get shot. lol.

[glitterboy2098]

the armor on Ebay is largely one of two things. low quality, or used. neither are going to protect well.

brand new army grade class IVa armor you won't see going for under a few thousand.

[flatline]

the armor on Ebay is largely one of two things. low quality, or used. neither are going to protect well.

brand new army grade class IVa armor you won't see going for under a few thousand.

So when you purchase that suit of Gladiator or Plastic Man or whatever from the black market, why should you feel any safer than when purchasing off of Ebay?

--flatline

[glitterboy2098]

because when my characters buy off the black market, they aren't buying the crap that's being offered at a quarter of the original "when new" cost...

Cheap armor on ebay is either low quality or used-and-therefore-not-good-anymore. when you buy armor, you get what you pay for.

[flatline]

because when my characters buy off the black market, they aren't buying the crap that's being offered at a quarter of the original "when new" cost...

Cheap armor on ebay is either low quality or used-and-therefore-not-good-anymore. when you buy armor, you get what you pay for.

Can you give show me an example of armor that you would consider not cheap?

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

the armor on Ebay is largely one of two things. low quality, or used. neither are going to protect well.

brand new army grade class IVa armor you won't see going for under a few thousand.

So when you purchase that suit of Gladiator or Plastic Man or whatever from the black market, why should you feel any safer than when purchasing off of Ebay?

--flatline

A valid point, and one reason our guys try and buy from NG. I'm sure there are lower quality items and knock offs sold "For cheep" by the black market. I'm curious if it'll be mentioned in the Black Market book.

It HAS popped up a few times in Rifts. It mentions _____ is the price for a new suit of ____ armor, but you can find cheep knocck offs by these corps for Less but they have 20 to 50% less MDC ect ect ect.

[Pepsi Jedi]

LoL

Maybe in the Black Market book?

[Balabanto]

I've been using 1-10 since I started. I feel it better reflects the world as written. It also means that a battle with low grade md weapons doesn't end with a single swing, and adds a little more drama when sdc beings are down to their last armor. Otherwise, too many battles end with "@#!!! this! My armor is gone! I surrender!" Every battle shouldn't end with "What do I do with the villain? He surrendered."

I guess it works that way if you play with the GI Joe rule (armor is destroyed without damaging the occupant). That rule didn't exist when we played and so if you were going to surrender, you had to do it before your armor was gone unless you were MDC yourself.

--flatline

We play with thresholds for everything. Armor is 50, Psionic FF is 40, Magic FF is 20, except for Invincible Armor (GI Joe Infinite), Technological Force Field is 40. Force fields can be stacked, but people still get killed. I whacked an NPC grackletooth who was with the group this sunday. He got flattened in the middle of a Hail spell, and he was just summarily pulped. The worst part is, the PC's liked this guy. Oh, well.

For the most part, I don't want to encourage players to kill their opponents, but I don't want everything to be a constant moral dilemma over what to do with the villain, either. Rifts has vast swaths of wilderness. You don't always have an opportunity to bring someone to justice or to trial. Sometimes, these types of things are awesome. But if it's happening EVERY WEEK, there's something wrong.

As for a guy with SDC handguns causing damage to a dragon or SDC creature, the amount of SDC the gun causes would have to be truly significant for me to allow that. Use common sense here. If someone finds a sixteen inch gun from the Battleship New Jersey, and fires it at Bob the Dragon, and it actually hits, that should do significant damage. If someone fires a Colt .45 at a dragon, then it probably shouldn't.

So GI-Joe does have limits in my game, except where the text of spells specifically contradicts it.

The gun for the New Jersey would qualify as a MD weapon so it should be damaging a dragon if it's used against one, whereas having Mega-damage be just 10 times what SDC is means conventional handguns and the like can harm a MDC target with good rolls which they shouldn't. You majorly unbalance the game as the 1:100 ratio is what everything's built around, you can't do a simplistic patch by knocking off a zero and alter nothing else without leaving a serious imbalance.

Except that your assessment of that gun is based on your opinion and not on game rules, which is the entirity of my point. The feel and style of play of the game are regulated by the GM, not by an opinion of how something should work on the Rifts boards. The game has been running on and off for fifteen years with various groups. Clearly it's successful. And there is no serious imbalance. People roll dice and there are results.

Plus...Rifts is not balanced to begin with. This actually BALANCED the game because people were WILLING to play SDC creatures. That was one of the reasons why I did it in the first place. The ratio of MDC to SDC characters should be about 2:3, not 4:1.

All you have to do is look at how Mega-Damage is dealt to understand why this is so. The game is still LETHAL, ridiculously so. The difference between 10:1 and 100:1 is relatively meaningless. A JA-12 still kills you in one shot. BUT...it means that a battle between a couple people with vibroknives will go more than a single pass, maybe two or three. And that's fine. I am completely okay with that. Most SDC creatures don't have 400 SDC to begin with. Even at x10, you'll be lucky to take a few shots from the vibroknife. Three hits from that and you're dead, most of the time.

Missiles? If your armor gets blown down, still dead. Virtually every other damage value in the game, still dead. If you roll minimum damage against a super-high SDC opponent (100+ total) (Very unlikely), they might be able to be shot three times. But most people get hit once, and then the second time, they just die. We had ONE case ever where that was not the result in fifteen years and the character was lucky enough to be at -29 against a PE score of 31. In every other case, the end result was the same. A smear.

[Nightmask]

I've been using 1-10 since I started. I feel it better reflects the world as written. It also means that a battle with low grade md weapons doesn't end with a single swing, and adds a little more drama when sdc beings are down to their last armor. Otherwise, too many battles end with "@#!!! this! My armor is gone! I surrender!" Every battle shouldn't end with "What do I do with the villain? He surrendered."

I guess it works that way if you play with the GI Joe rule (armor is destroyed without damaging the occupant). That rule didn't exist when we played and so if you were going to surrender, you had to do it before your armor was gone unless you were MDC yourself.

--flatline

We play with thresholds for everything. Armor is 50, Psionic FF is 40, Magic FF is 20, except for Invincible Armor (GI Joe Infinite), Technological Force Field is 40. Force fields can be stacked, but people still get killed. I whacked an NPC grackletooth who was with the group this sunday. He got flattened in the middle of a Hail spell, and he was just summarily pulped. The worst part is, the PC's liked this guy. Oh, well.

For the most part, I don't want to encourage players to kill their opponents, but I don't want everything to be a constant moral dilemma over what to do with the villain, either. Rifts has vast swaths of wilderness. You don't always have an opportunity to bring someone to justice or to trial. Sometimes, these types of things are awesome. But if it's happening EVERY WEEK, there's something wrong.

As for a guy with SDC handguns causing damage to a dragon or SDC creature, the amount of SDC the gun causes would have to be truly significant for me to allow that. Use common sense here. If someone finds a sixteen inch gun from the Battleship New Jersey, and fires it at Bob the Dragon, and it actually hits, that should do significant damage. If someone fires a Colt .45 at a dragon, then it probably shouldn't.

So GI-Joe does have limits in my game, except where the text of spells specifically contradicts it.

The gun for the New Jersey would qualify as a MD weapon so it should be damaging a dragon if it's used against one, whereas having Mega-damage be just 10 times what SDC is means conventional handguns and the like can harm a MDC target with good rolls which they shouldn't. You majorly unbalance the game as the 1:100 ratio is what everything's built around, you can't do a simplistic patch by knocking off a zero and alter nothing else without leaving a serious imbalance.

Except that your assessment of that gun is based on your opinion and not on game rules, which is the entirity of my point.

No, it's based on the fact that the gun does mega-damage levels of SDC which would classify it as a mega-damage weapon. If a weapon does more than 100 SDC in damage then it's dealing mega-damage, which means by the game rules that gun does mega-damage. Screwing with the ratio means that the gun now does 10 times as much damage as it originally did to something like a dragon, making it far more lethal than it should hope to be in such a situation. Now if you like nerfing things so that creatures and items that ought to be epic aren't that's your prerogative but you aren't making them more balanced or more plausible you're making them less balanced and more implausible.

[dragonfett]

why does everyone insist that the ratio and existence of mdc inevitably leads to the whole sale slaughter of all "poor wilderness folks"?
contrary to popular thought MDC critters are not lurking around every single bush in the out back of NA...
Kevin said it himself (cant recall which book but I think its in the Adventure Guide) they dont write about the mundane because they believe that is not what will hook us into reading World Book XYZ. (personally I wouldnt mind an all sdc "Vagabonds Guide to Survival in the Wilds of Rifts" book of the mundane for Rifts but thats just me.)
The Ratio is just fine as is...
but if a change is considered by the Powers That Be...
I would suggest adding a mid range tier (call it Heavy Damage for want of a better name) that can damage the mdc tier and can be damaged by the sdc tier...

I think people think that there are hordes of supernatural creatures/demons/etc. coming out of the Rifts during the cataclysm.

[The Dark Elf]

Not played that much rifts but Id say either have it or dont have it at all. Even 1:10 seems to high compared to SDC and 1:3 is not worth having a difference damage capacity.

[Killer Cyborg]

The difference between a weapon that deals 1d6 MD and a weapon that deals 1d6x100 SDC is that MD weapons have a kind of blow-through effect.
If each of these weapons were fired at a target with 620 SDC, and both rolled a 6 for damage, the MD weapon would destroy the target, but the SDC weapon would leave it standing with 20 SDC.

[flatline]

The difference between a weapon that deals 1d6 MD and a weapon that deals 1d6x100 SDC is that MD weapons have a kind of blow-through effect.
If each of these weapons were fired at a target with 620 SDC, and both rolled a 6 for damage, the MD weapon would destroy the target, but the SDC weapon would leave it standing with 20 SDC.

Where is this explained?

--flatline

[Nightmask]

why does everyone insist that the ratio and existence of mdc inevitably leads to the whole sale slaughter of all "poor wilderness folks"?
contrary to popular thought MDC critters are not lurking around every single bush in the out back of NA...
Kevin said it himself (cant recall which book but I think its in the Adventure Guide) they dont write about the mundane because they believe that is not what will hook us into reading World Book XYZ. (personally I wouldnt mind an all sdc "Vagabonds Guide to Survival in the Wilds of Rifts" book of the mundane for Rifts but thats just me.)
The Ratio is just fine as is...
but if a change is considered by the Powers That Be...
I would suggest adding a mid range tier (call it Heavy Damage for want of a better name) that can damage the mdc tier and can be damaged by the sdc tier...

I think people think that there are hordes of supernatural creatures/demons/etc. coming out of the Rifts during the cataclysm.

There were, or at least enough to deal epic damage, but many of those were killed off or in the end simply couldn't survive on Rifts Earth so that while the PC group has to worry about such things because THEY, being stacked with MD items, have to have the GM send such against them to challenge them in general MDC monsters/threats aren't really so common. If they were there would be no wilderness communities anymore they'd have all been destroyed.

[Nightmask]

The difference between a weapon that deals 1d6 MD and a weapon that deals 1d6x100 SDC is that MD weapons have a kind of blow-through effect.
If each of these weapons were fired at a target with 620 SDC, and both rolled a 6 for damage, the MD weapon would destroy the target, but the SDC weapon would leave it standing with 20 SDC.

Where is this explained?

--flatline

I think the example given is of a vehicle where the vehicle is still standing after x amount of SDC damage but destroyed by the equivalent amount of MD because for some reason all SDC from 1-99 that it had left was irrelevant and without reaching exactly or above the next equivalent point of MDC it was toast.

[flatline]

The difference between a weapon that deals 1d6 MD and a weapon that deals 1d6x100 SDC is that MD weapons have a kind of blow-through effect.
If each of these weapons were fired at a target with 620 SDC, and both rolled a 6 for damage, the MD weapon would destroy the target, but the SDC weapon would leave it standing with 20 SDC.

Where is this explained?

--flatline

I think the example given is of a vehicle where the vehicle is still standing after x amount of SDC damage but destroyed by the equivalent amount of MD because for some reason all SDC from 1-99 that it had left was irrelevant and without reaching exactly or above the next equivalent point of MDC it was toast.

So if my character with HP + SDC = 199 gets hit for 1MD, I'm dead even though I still have 99 HP+SDC left?

--flatline

[glitterboy2098]

we need a book and page number on that claim, because i have never read any examples that use such a thing.

[flatline]

The difference between a weapon that deals 1d6 MD and a weapon that deals 1d6x100 SDC is that MD weapons have a kind of blow-through effect.
If each of these weapons were fired at a target with 620 SDC, and both rolled a 6 for damage, the MD weapon would destroy the target, but the SDC weapon would leave it standing with 20 SDC.

Where is this explained?

--flatline

I think the example given is of a vehicle where the vehicle is still standing after x amount of SDC damage but destroyed by the equivalent amount of MD because for some reason all SDC from 1-99 that it had left was irrelevant and without reaching exactly or above the next equivalent point of MDC it was toast.

So if my character with HP + SDC = 199 gets hit for 1MD, I'm dead even though I still have 99 HP+SDC left?

--flatline

Simply. Yes. Because the character has no way of defending against MDC, if they take any MDC damage they are dead.

Bollocks! That would mean a giant with 2000SDC would die from a mere 1MD received.

Not buying it.

--flatline

[flatline]

So if my character with HP + SDC = 199 gets hit for 1MD, I'm dead even though I still have 99 HP+SDC left?

--flatline

Simply. Yes. Because the character has no way of defending against MDC, if they take any MDC damage they are dead.

Bollocks! That would mean a giant with 2000SDC would die from a mere 1MD received.

Not buying it.

--flatline

That's the way the game works unless you use the option rules for surviving MDC. Otherwise, if you are hit by an MD attack, you're just dead. You can not like it all you want, but that's the rule, and that's why they added the optional survival rules, for people that didn't like it.

Then why does the conversion book refer to giants as minor mdc creatures since they have such large amounts of SDC?

--flatline

[glitterboy2098]

we need a book and page number on that claim, because i have never read any examples that use such a thing.

RUE page 288 is where I got mine. Where it says To survive Mega-Damage combat,... Which implys rather heavily that if you're not protected from MDC in some way and you are hit by an MDC attack, you're just dead.

the section says nothing of the kind though. that section is about how to track damage from MD weapons on MDC armor, and how environmental body armor has its special feature stop working after taking so much damage.

if you look at the early bit on the page, you'll see "one Mega-Damage (M.D.) point inflicts the equivalent of 100 S.D.C.", and the elaboration on that.

which indicates that your supposed to actually track the SDC damage on SDC things when they are hit with MD attacks.

[Nightmask]

we need a book and page number on that claim, because i have never read any examples that use such a thing.

RUE page 288 is where I got mine. Where it says To survive Mega-Damage combat,... Which implys rather heavily that if you're not protected from MDC in some way and you are hit by an MDC attack, you're just dead.

the section says nothing of the kind though. that section is about how to track damage from MD weapons on MDC armor, and how environmental body armor has its special feature stop working after taking so much damage.

if you look at the early bit on the page, you'll see "one Mega-Damage (M.D.) point inflicts the equivalent of 100 S.D.C.", and the elaboration on that.

which indicates that your supposed to actually track the SDC damage on SDC things when they are hit with MD attacks.

Did you miss the part where it says "the character needs to don M.D.C. body armor, power armor, use an M.D.C. force field (rare), or a psionic or magic defense."? Which means... if they do not have one of these things to protect them, they die.

You're reading more into that than it actually says, as it doesn't say 'even if you have thousands of SDC/HP and take a point of MD you're dead', there is even mention that such beings CAN survive modest amounts of MD due to their enormous amounts of SDC. So a character with a combined SDC/HP total of 300 can survive being hit by 2 points of MD, he'll just be terribly ravaged right off the bat, and die from any subsequent MD. They'd just be stupid to not get MD protection of some sort because even they are still pretty squishy.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No guys, it's really NOT how it works. What it says is that most MD weapons, through their nature do so much damage that the conversion is usually more than the SDC char's have SDC.

If a character some how has... 300 SDC, and a whimpy (( I know but comparatively )) Laser pistol does 1D4 md, You shoot the guy with 300 MD you might only do 1 or 2 md. You do 100 or 200 sdc worth of damage. The guy is hurting you just did a massive amount of damage to his already massive SDC, but there's no instant kill.


What the book is describing is that most SDC creatures have less than 100 SDC. So if they're hit with even one MD it's "More" than their total SDC.

Add in the 'chance' to make that absolute low roll. Even with a 1D4 MD pistol, it's just a 1 in 4 chance to get "only" 1 md.

There's no "If an SDC creature gets hit with MD it's automatically dead" function.

Now people will go "Prove it, Mr Jedi" and I shall.

Open your Juicer Uprising books to page 32. Under Titan juicer. under super endurance. "Adds 3D6X100sdc and 1D4X100Hit points. and 3D4 to PE. This makes the Titan the equivalent of a minor mega damage being, with 4 to 22MDC..." (( Then there's a picture and it picks up on page 34)) "... points (400 to 2200 SDC/HP). Note that normal SDC Attacks will still hurt and even kill the character, but a ton of SDC damage needs to be inflicted. Even at an MDC of 22, the character is vulnerable to a few well placed weapon blasts, so most wear some kind of body armor."

Now that's a direct quote, where a being, with loads and loads of SDC, has the equivalent of minor mdc... and it says that the character is vulnerable to a FEW well placed weapons blasts. Not one and done. You still have to deplete the total. it also points out that even though he may have 2200 SDC, it doesn't make him invunerable to SDC weapons.

Hope that helps and answers your questions.

*Edit:* I was looking up struff and writing this while watching some TV so there were a few posts between mine and what I was replying to.

in this case, Night mask is also correct. I just found book evidence to back up his and my point.

[Nightmask]

Open your Juicer Uprising books to page 32. Under Titan juicer. under super endurance. "Adds 3D6X100sdc and 1D4X100Hit points. and 3D4 to PE. This makes the Titan the equivalent of a minor mega damage being, with 4 to 22MDC..." (( Then there's a picture and it picks up on page 34)) "... points (400 to 2200 SDC/HP). Note that normal SDC Attacks will still hurt and even kill the character, but a ton of SDC damage needs to be inflicted. Even at an MDC of 22, the character is vulnerable to a few well placed weapon blasts, so most wear some kind of body armor."

Now that's a direct quote, where a being, with loads and loads of SDC, has the equivalent of minor mdc... and it says that the character is vulnerable to a FEW well placed weapons blasts. Not one and done. You still have to deplete the total. it also points out that even though he may have 2200 SDC, it doesn't make him invunerable to SDC weapons.

Plus the flavor text for that OCC has the Juicer getting shot with laser pistols and being left with only minor burns

Was that one of the SDC juicers it refers to or one of the MD versions?

[glitterboy2098]

The flipside of this arguement is that SDC weapons can NEVER hope to damage MDC constructs, because SDC would not be inherently capable of that sort of damage capacity.

actually, on page 288 it also says that "attacks of 1-99 SDC do no damage to MDC objects", meaning that any attack infliciting more than 100 SDC will damage an MDC object. the book even say that you round such attacks down to the nearest 100 when figuring, so if you hit for say, 140 SDC, you only inflicting 1MD.

[Nightmask]

I think it'd be more accurate to state that if the creature description states that it can take minor MD attacks, even though it is an SDC creature, then it can. But the Grimbor, for example, has 1D6x100 SDC, but no note about being a minor MD creature or being able to withstand minor MD attacks. There are other creatures that are the same way in other books, but I haven't the time to find them at the moment. It could be argued that the lack of note is an oversight, which is possible, or it could mean that regardless of the amount of SDC, unless stated otherwise, MD attacks just kill them regardless of amount of damage inflicted, since they are not inherintly capable of withstanding such a powerful attack.

They don't have to paste such a notice in those SDC characters, it's already covered under the basic entries regarding SDC/HP and MDC. Just as you don't go listing under every character how fast it heals because there's already a blanket entry that says 'heals this fast unless stated otherwise'. It's already stated that if you've enough SDC to handle the equivalent SDC of a MD attack you survive it, so they don't have to waste space stating that under the Grimbor or any other creature that has lots of SDC. Otherwise you get something as ridiculous as a full-sized Zentraedi with massive amounts of SDC being killed by a point of mega-damage which simply isn't the case.

[glitterboy2098]

and yet there is no rule that explicitly states that anyone without that note dies if they take even 1 md, so we are left with common sense, which states that since they gave us stats for the mdc to sdc ratio, we are supposed to track the sdc equivilent damage, and things only die when their sdc is fully removed.