New Tolkeen?

[Wooly]

CS would strike fast and hard with long range missiles before magical defenses could be put in place.

[Hystrix]

Ok if refugees went far west into say California and built a new city a "new Tolkeen" What could they do?
What would the city look like?
Would they rebuild an army?
A collage to geared toward magic?
A democracy or monarchy or something else?

I'd like to hear as many ideas as possible on this, thanks.

If they were smart they build New Tolkeen in another dimension. Meybe somewhere in Phase World. I hear the Thundercloud Galaxy has alot of unihabited worlds. I'd think a powerful and rich in magic kingdom like Tolkeen could "set up shop" in a more secluded place. Maybe name the whole dang planet, or dimension New Tolkeen.

If there was an established place like that, be it on Earth or elsewhere, I'd imagine that building a magic university would be a big priority.

[Colt47]

If the city got built in the west outside of CS territory, New Tolkien should be alright. If the CS attacked a newly established city that is outside their territory it would cause a lot of alarm to other city states under similar circumstances, largely because the CS in this case did an attack without provocation by the newly created city.

On the flip end, I don't know if anyone would want to call their City New Tolkien: That is just inviting trouble.

[Nightmask]

If the city got built in the west outside of CS territory, New Tolkien should be alright. If the CS attacked a newly established city that is outside their territory it would cause a lot of alarm to other city states under similar circumstances, largely because the CS in this case did an attack without provocation by the newly created city.

On the flip end, I don't know if anyone would want to call their City New Tolkien: That is just inviting trouble.

Given the CS attacked the original Tolkeen which was clearly not their territory and without provocation and no one did anything doesn't seem like anyone would do anything if they hunted down the survivors and destroyed any attempt to make a new city.

[Colt47]

If the city got built in the west outside of CS territory, New Tolkien should be alright. If the CS attacked a newly established city that is outside their territory it would cause a lot of alarm to other city states under similar circumstances, largely because the CS in this case did an attack without provocation by the newly created city.

On the flip end, I don't know if anyone would want to call their City New Tolkien: That is just inviting trouble.

Given the CS attacked the original Tolkeen which was clearly not their territory and without provocation and no one did anything doesn't seem like anyone would do anything if they hunted down the survivors and destroyed any attempt to make a new city.

That isn't the impression I got from the SOT books.

[Gamer]

There's too many 'threats' on their doorstep to worry about .

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think they'd take a page out of Dewomer (( How ever it's spelled)) and work to "Cloak" it from the start. "Learning" From their mistakes with the CS. They'd hide from the Start and become the Third "HIdden city". (( Dewomer and Psiscape))

I also think they'd learn from Tolkeen's mistakes and vow not to make those mistakes again. Demons/ Embracing Evil/ Overactive aggression ect.

[Faceless Dude]

I think they'd take a page out of Dewomer (( How ever it's spelled)) and work to "Cloak" it from the start. "Learning" From their mistakes with the CS. They'd hide from the Start and become the Third "HIdden city". (( Dewomer and Psiscape))

I also think they'd learn from Tolkeen's mistakes and vow not to make those mistakes again. Demons/ Embracing Evil/ Overactive aggression ect.

This would be a great solution. In the meantime until you can cloak your city i would attempt to relocate far enough away so that if contact is ef made again, that it's Irving Prosek the fourth that finds you.

I'm telling you though, head to Tahiti.

[taalismn]

Provided the community survived political infighting over who would be in charge and who was responsible for screwing up back in ol' Tolkeen, New Tolkeen would place an emphasis on defense first over academics....even if they were well hidden, there would always be that fear that the CS would come hunting, so they'd establish strong defenses from the onset, building on what (meta)technological and tactical knowledge survived from the Tolkeen campaign. Academics would come later as an affordable luxury once the army was strong, though any sort of research that yielded military benefits would be encouraged.
The danger is, this period of transition might easily lead to New Tolkeen becoming a magic-using police state akin to the CS in mindset; it's us against them, and we have to bend all resources towards the common defense, universal conscription, that sort of thing. Maybe not the sort of diabolic state of affairs in the City of Brass, but fairly oppressive compared to Lazlo and what Tolkeen USED to be like.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think they'd take a page out of Dewomer (( How ever it's spelled)) and work to "Cloak" it from the start. "Learning" From their mistakes with the CS. They'd hide from the Start and become the Third "HIdden city". (( Dewomer and Psiscape))

I also think they'd learn from Tolkeen's mistakes and vow not to make those mistakes again. Demons/ Embracing Evil/ Overactive aggression ect.

This would be a great solution. In the meantime until you can cloak your city i would attempt to relocate far enough away so that if contact is ef made again, that it's Irving Prosek the fourth that finds you.

I'm telling you though, head to Tahiti.

This is a given (( Far away, not Tahiti, probably some pissy Tahhitian gods there or something))

Kevin has never done much with CA. This is on purpose. He even mentioned it in the recent interview, that they've purposefully NOT done anything out there.

"New Tolkeen" could fit out there well. Way the frak away from the CS.

Course.. the way Kevin is holding it back.. he likely has SOMETHING planned for it. But that he's not given any hint of what it is, makes me think.. he has the IDEA that he'd like SOMETHING out there, more than he has SOMETHING, he just hasn't typed up yet.

But yeah. New Tolkeen could fit in Northern CA very nicely. Go there, AND start from the ground up, building it to be cloaked (( and purposefully start from the ground up for it to be defendable. not just the organic way most cities grow))

[Pepsi Jedi]

Provided the community survived political infighting over who would be in charge and who was responsible for screwing up back in ol' Tolkeen, New Tolkeen would place an emphasis on defense first over academics....even if they were well hidden, there would always be that fear that the CS would come hunting, so they'd establish strong defenses from the onset, building on what (meta)technological and tactical knowledge survived from the Tolkeen campaign. Academics would come later as an affordable luxury once the army was strong, though any sort of research that yielded military benefits would be encouraged.
The danger is, this period of transition might easily lead to New Tolkeen becoming a magic-using police state akin to the CS in mindset; it's us against them, and we have to bend all resources towards the common defense, universal conscription, that sort of thing. Maybe not the sort of diabolic state of affairs in the City of Brass, but fairly oppressive compared to Lazlo and what Tolkeen USED to be like.

Read this after my post above, but very good points here. You'd have to be careful to balance it.

Study how Tolkeen is set up for example. As they seem to have it workin'.

[jedi078]

If the CS found out about a 'New Tolkeen, they'd nuke it in a heart beat.

...and for the record no matter what the books say the CS would use tactical nukes and chemical weapons whenever it will give them an advantage.

[Pepsi Jedi]

If the CS found out about a 'New Tolkeen, they'd nuke it in a heart beat.

...and for the record no matter what the books say the CS would use tactical nukes and chemical weapons whenever it will give them an advantage.

Well. just a small point, but, "What the books say" IS how the CS would react. lol as it's fictional, they act as their creators make them act. Often illogically, but yeah. they're at the wheel.

[glitterboy2098]

given they tried to nuke the original Tolkeen in the opening pages of the SoT 1st book, yeah they would nuke a new one. they might be tactical nuke LRM's, but they're still nukes.

[Nightmask]

given they tried to nuke the original Tolkeen in the opening pages of the SoT 1st book, yeah they would nuke a new one. they might be tactical nuke LRM's, but they're still nukes.

So putting up the anti-nuke ward would be priority one for any new home.

[barna10]

If the city got built in the west outside of CS territory, New Tolkien should be alright. If the CS attacked a newly established city that is outside their territory it would cause a lot of alarm to other city states under similar circumstances, largely because the CS in this case did an attack without provocation by the newly created city.

On the flip end, I don't know if anyone would want to call their City New Tolkien: That is just inviting trouble.

Given the CS attacked the original Tolkeen which was clearly not their territory and without provocation and no one did anything doesn't seem like anyone would do anything if they hunted down the survivors and destroyed any attempt to make a new city.

The west is outside territory CS wishes to control and outside the Dominion of man.

According to source book 1, Prosek wants to control all of North and South America...

[barna10]

I would gather up any remaining Daemonix (as they are listed as being eternally loyal to the Tolkeenites for freeing them from their dimensional prison) and establish something north of the Calgary Rift. Putting the Rift between them and the CS should make them safe discovery and attack.

I would then focus on:

1) establishing structure
2) defenses
3) steady food supply
4) permanent shelter
5) communication with allies

Barring the ability to the above, I would gather everyone I could find and seek asylum in Dweomer or Lazlo until we had enough resources to strike out on our own.

[gaaahhhh]

They should build it on the ruins of Chi-town.

[Mallak's Place]

Ok if refugees went far west into say California and built a new city a "new Tolkeen" What could they do?
What would the city look like?
Would they rebuild an army?
A collage to geared toward magic?
A democracy or monarchy or something else?

I'd like to hear as many ideas as possible on this, thanks.

A “New Tolkeen” might have been started even before the fall of the original Tolkeen. Remember that a lot of people left Tolkeen before the war broke out because they didn’t like what the government was doing and where is was leading.
A small powerful group dedicated to the original ideas of Tolkeen could have left and started a new Community else where. I’m sure the Tolkeen Council didn’t always have lunatics, warmongers and selfish despots on it. Some of the founders/Leaders of a “New Tolkeen” might be ex-Council members who resigned (or were forced to)

[zaccheus]

I would gather up any remaining Daemonix (as they are listed as being eternally loyal to the Tolkeenites for freeing them from their dimensional prison) and establish something north of the Calgary Rift. Putting the Rift between them and the CS should make them safe discovery and attack.

I would then focus on:

1) establishing structure
2) defenses
3) steady food supply
4) permanent shelter
5) communication with allies

Barring the ability to the above, I would gather everyone I could find and seek asylum in Dweomer or Lazlo until we had enough resources to strike out on our own.

I think this is in general a good idea, just not the order I would go in. I'd go with:

1) find a sufficient fresh water supply
2) establish a steady food supply

Once that locatoin is established that has point 1 and 2, then do the rest.

[Pepsi Jedi]

If the city got built in the west outside of CS territory, New Tolkien should be alright. If the CS attacked a newly established city that is outside their territory it would cause a lot of alarm to other city states under similar circumstances, largely because the CS in this case did an attack without provocation by the newly created city.

On the flip end, I don't know if anyone would want to call their City New Tolkien: That is just inviting trouble.

Given the CS attacked the original Tolkeen which was clearly not their territory and without provocation and no one did anything doesn't seem like anyone would do anything if they hunted down the survivors and destroyed any attempt to make a new city.

The west is outside territory CS wishes to control and outside the Dominion of man.

According to source book 1, Prosek wants to control all of North and South America...

And the CS is also 100s of years from being able to bring that -want- to fruition. I WANT A new Camero..... Doesn't mean I have the means to procure one.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I would gather up any remaining Daemonix (as they are listed as being eternally loyal to the Tolkeenites for freeing them from their dimensional prison) and establish something north of the Calgary Rift. Putting the Rift between them and the CS should make them safe discovery and attack.

I would then focus on:

1) establishing structure
2) defenses
3) steady food supply
4) permanent shelter
5) communication with allies

Barring the ability to the above, I would gather everyone I could find and seek asylum in Dweomer or Lazlo until we had enough resources to strike out on our own.

Calgary is a kingdom of monsters and stuff. You don't wanna be lumped in with monsters AND up around the hivelands. That's just bad and worse.

I don't think the Demonix were subjigated forever. And even if they were, you're back to being an evil nation dealing with demons.

Naa this one doesn't work at all.

[Pepsi Jedi]

And the CS is also 100s of years from being able to bring that -want- to fruition. I WANT A new Camero..... Doesn't mean I have the means to procure one.

Page 39 CWC shows their 20 year plan for expansion and I can't recall where but somewhere it states the CS sees the west as a wasteland and not worth their efforts to conquer.

Yeah but the 20 year plan only puts them roughly "One state more west" not all the way to Cali. (( I saw the pic you're talking about. Had my book open quoting CS troop strength in another thread)

[taalismn]

With long range missiles and nuclear-powered supersonic aircraft, there is no such thing as a 'far enough away not to be a threat'. Add in Skelebot-style AIs, and I wouldn't put it past the extreme elements in ChiTown to create something like a cleaner version of Project Pluto: nuke-powered strategic robot supersonic bombers flying around enemy territory hunting for targets to glass.
Ideally, you wanna be hiding behind something that's a bigger threat to your pursuers than you are, but that runs into several problems; a) you have to cross that threat to get to your safe place, b) said threat is now YOUR next door neighbor, and c) if the threat is big and aggressive enough, your original enemy may decided to deal with them NOW, or else build themselves up even more to the point they can deal with the buffer threat and have enough left over to hit you.

[flatline]

Who knowingly builds a city on a location that will have to be abandoned 20 years later?

--flatline

[Gamer]

There wouldn't be a city, a town maybe but only the most adventurous even want to go that far west, most of the refugees are farmers and city folk.
The refugees that flee the area less than 3% are magic wielders, less than 15% have any combat experience and only 20% have a ranged weapon with dubious ability to use it.
Thier best warriors and high level mages are either dead or still in the Tolkeen area fighting their war of revenge.
Only the south west part of California has any magic areas and is likely already taken up by things that the refugees are going to be incapable of dealing with.

[Giant2005]

The lesson they learned is hate, their friends and family butchered, tortured, raped, by the coalition, abandoned by their allies who they thought were friends. Nope, I think revenge is on everyones mind and I think whatever city arises will be more powerful and darker than anything that has come before. Demons? Bah, try working with AI's, vampires, dark gods, harvesters, and every other horrible thing. Where they were pushed to do evil before in self defense, THIS time they would willingly join them for the chance to take the CS out (preferably very, very, painfully) because nobody else is doing anything about the CS.

I can see them becoming a twisted mirror version of the CS in a way, anybody that supports the CS would be sent to the torture and then sacrifice pit, their families given to the vampires as play things and their friends given to the harvesters to turn into new undead soldiers. going from town to town and anybody even hinting at not supporting them will be made an example of. All areas will be considered part of the tolkeen "protection" and expect a tax that WILL be paid.

That actually sounds really interesting.
Of course it would be an extremely long time before that nation would build up into anything worth noticing which kind of puts a damper on it.
Maybe we can have them increase their numbers for a while by breeding in the Astral plane .

[camk4evr]

it does sound cool.

Wouldn't want to be their neighbours though. Nor between them and the CS when they go at it.

[Gamer]

It's not that interesting at all it's just another FOM, like we need another one.
They are beaten, broken little sheep who have had enough and endured enough.
Of the leaders who escaped 2/3rds are going off to live in self imposed exile and trying to forgive and forget and start over with a better life, not nursing vengance.

[kaid]

Could be interesting if they put up a new tolkeen somewhere on the west coast. I don't recall there being much if any detail on what is past the rocky mountains so its a pretty big area that is not really covered by much information. I think if they did it low key enough to start with and far enough west it would take a long time for the coalition to ever find out about it. The country is big and without the use of satellites it is hard to find something people are actively trying to hide especially if they have access to magic.

I would gather up any remaining Daemonix (as they are listed as being eternally loyal to the Tolkeenites for freeing them from their dimensional prison) and establish something north of the Calgary Rift. Putting the Rift between them and the CS should make them safe discovery and attack.

I would then focus on:

1) establishing structure
2) defenses
3) steady food supply
4) permanent shelter
5) communication with allies

Barring the ability to the above, I would gather everyone I could find and seek asylum in Dweomer or Lazlo until we had enough resources to strike out on our own.

Calgary is a kingdom of monsters and stuff. You don't wanna be lumped in with monsters AND up around the hivelands. That's just bad and worse.

I don't think the Demonix were subjigated forever. And even if they were, you're back to being an evil nation dealing with demons.

Naa this one doesn't work at all.

[Gamer]

Could be interesting if they put up a new tolkeen somewhere on the west coast. I don't recall there being much if any detail on what is past the rocky mountains so its a pretty big area that is not really covered by much information. I think if they did it low key enough to start with and far enough west it would take a long time for the coalition to ever find out about it. The country is big and without the use of satellites it is hard to find something people are actively trying to hide especially if they have access to magic.

I would gather up any remaining Daemonix (as they are listed as being eternally loyal to the Tolkeenites for freeing them from their dimensional prison) and establish something north of the Calgary Rift. Putting the Rift between them and the CS should make them safe discovery and attack.

I would then focus on:

1) establishing structure
2) defenses
3) steady food supply
4) permanent shelter
5) communication with allies

Barring the ability to the above, I would gather everyone I could find and seek asylum in Dweomer or Lazlo until we had enough resources to strike out on our own.

Calgary is a kingdom of monsters and stuff. You don't wanna be lumped in with monsters AND up around the hivelands. That's just bad and worse.

I don't think the Demonix were subjigated forever. And even if they were, you're back to being an evil nation dealing with demons.

Naa this one doesn't work at all.

you don't need satellites.
One Death head tranports converted to recon could act as a very long on station recon bird and pick up more than you could imagine.
Google earth uses more high resolution aircraft images than it does satellite, which is why you don't see up to date images.

I agree low key is what they would go with, because there wouldn't be much to begin with.

[taalismn]

Naruni Enterprises might want to offer some resettlement assistance; not only weapons but materials and equipment, under generous loan conditions and a 20-30 year payback date to get them hooked. Maybe a recruitment drive; work for NE in some capacity and we not only forgive any personal debt to Naruni you may have incurred, but it's so many credits per ex-Tolkeenite working for us that we lop off the debt.
If the fine print's phrased right, there'll be a lot of takers on the offer.

[Gamer]

Odds are better Tolkeen already has a sizeable Naurni debt that it still needs to repay.

[taalismn]

Odds are better Tolkeen already has a sizeable Naurni debt that it still needs to repay.

Wouldn't THAT be a campaign shaggy dog: PCs hunt down leads on 'New Tolkeen' and find the secret location---only to discover it's a debtor prison work camp set up to make sure NE gets SOMETHING out of the ex-Tolkeenites.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Any option for a new Tolkeen means they'll have to seek allies with South america and Phaseworld to really work.

Moving to California might be an option, but that means they're smack dap in the middle between Indians who don't want white people, and Monsters that want to eat them, and Vampires.

The indians out there are by and large stone age people in tech. They're not exactly going to take out a city of Mages all on their own.

Monsters are a problem every where, but again, Dragons, and mages and stuff, they can do ok.

There's other stuff out there. The CO baronies are closer. (( not RIGHT there, but closer than SA or Phaseworld))

[taalismn]

Any option for a new Tolkeen means they'll have to seek allies with South america and Phaseworld to really work.

Moving to California might be an option, but that means they're smack dap in the middle between Indians who don't want white people, and Monsters that want to eat them, and Vampires.

Well, vampires ARE monsters that want to eat people...just not all at once.

[taalismn]

the baronies are mostly free range vampire minions and loonatics who live out the crags of society.
not much of a resource for New Tolkeen.

That statement is really taken far out of context.

Actually I think he means that none of the existing kingdoms are really prosperous or powerful enough to be strong allies for a New Tolkeen in resisting the CS if it DOES decide to come hunting for them, the living being rather hardscrabble for many of the communities, with little surplus left over for building big militaries.
Of course, there's alway the exceptions, and the unknowns...who knows what hardware little kingdoms could be hanging onto, or are hiding iceberg-like under the surface?

[Pepsi Jedi]

the baronies are mostly free range vampire minions and loonatics who live out the crags of society.
not much of a resource for New Tolkeen.

There's also the Cyberknights.

[Gamer]

Any option for a new Tolkeen means they'll have to seek allies with South america and Phaseworld to really work.

Moving to California might be an option, but that means they're smack dap in the middle between Indians who don't want white people, and Monsters that want to eat them, and Vampires.

The indians out there are by and large stone age people in tech. They're not exactly going to take out a city of Mages all on their own.

Monsters are a problem every where, but again, Dragons, and mages and stuff, they can do ok.

There's other stuff out there. The CO baronies are closer. (( not RIGHT there, but closer than SA or Phaseworld))

The refugees are stone age in tech as well.
They don't don't have the capability to build a city or a city of mages.
Of all the refugees less than 3% are mages and none of them are going to be of high level all of those mages are either dead, still in Tolkeen area or went east to those mage cities -Aftermath.

The mages with some good power and good alignment to them founded 3 towns in Idaho, they are farm and fishing communities and want to no part of the vengence others seek. -Aftermath

[Pepsi Jedi]

Any option for a new Tolkeen means they'll have to seek allies with South america and Phaseworld to really work.

Moving to California might be an option, but that means they're smack dap in the middle between Indians who don't want white people, and Monsters that want to eat them, and Vampires.

The indians out there are by and large stone age people in tech. They're not exactly going to take out a city of Mages all on their own.

Monsters are a problem every where, but again, Dragons, and mages and stuff, they can do ok.

There's other stuff out there. The CO baronies are closer. (( not RIGHT there, but closer than SA or Phaseworld))

The refugees are stone age in tech as well.
They don't don't have the capability to build a city or a city of mages.
Of all the refugees less than 3% are mages and none of them are going to be of high level all of those mages are either dead, still in Tolkeen area or went east to those mage cities -Aftermath.

The mages with some good power and good alignment to them founded 3 towns in Idaho, they are farm and fishing communities and want to no part of the vengence others seek. -Aftermath

There's a difference between 'Stone age tech" and "Refugees". The native americans out there, largely ARE stone age tech. As in hunter gatherers, most of them don't even farm.

Non magical doesn't mean dumb rocks either. They have skills. Will everyone be a carpenter? No, but can thhat 3% mage population use their magic to aguement the skills nad talents of those that are there? Yes.

Can they get help along the way? Yes. The Cyberknights if noone else would help them start a town, that can grow into a city.

[Gamer]

Build a town with what?
A bunch of low level mages, a few cybernights, and a bunch of farmers and city folks.
The farmers are going to go off and do what they do and know, farming and not off to build some town that could get them into trouble. again.
not much in the way of township construction there, they will be lucky they could build log cabins.
The natives may already have control of the magic rich areas and if they don't then some 'things' that the refugees couldn't handle will, strike magic rich area off list.
Only the most adventurous of the refugess even want to go that far west -aftermath.
There isnt going to be a 'city', a town at best.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Any option for a new Tolkeen means they'll have to seek allies with South america and Phaseworld to really work.

Moving to California might be an option, but that means they're smack dap in the middle between Indians who don't want white people, and Monsters that want to eat them, and Vampires.

The indians out there are by and large stone age people in tech. They're not exactly going to take out a city of Mages all on their own.

Monsters are a problem every where, but again, Dragons, and mages and stuff, they can do ok.

There's other stuff out there. The CO baronies are closer. (( not RIGHT there, but closer than SA or Phaseworld))

You might want to re-read about the "Valley Preserve" in California. It's a third non-Native Americans.

(Also a number of preserves have tech that is on par with the CS.)

[Gamer]

Build a town with what?
A bunch of low level mages, a few cybernights, and a bunch of farmers and city folks.
The farmers are going to go off and do what they do and know, farming and not off to build some town that could get them into trouble. again.
The natives may already have control of the magic rich areas and if they don't then some 'things' that the refugees couldn't handle will, strike magic rich area off list.
Only the most adventurous of the refugess even want to go that far west -aftermath.
There isnt going to be a 'city', a town at best.

How does every city start?
Come on, think about it many major cities in our world started as small towns or even villages.

Of course that's how they started many, many, many years ago.
How many villages and towns started back then and never came of anything, how many became ghost towns when everyone moved off to someplace 'better', alot.
The natives would still be able to deal with them wouldn't they.
Natives who have both magic and tech. -see preserves as Dustin mentioned.
How many villages evolved into towns and of those into cities, not many.
They are way off on the beaten path, there is no reason to go waaaaay over to that 'village'.
How many of those adventurous few refugees that want to go that far west would even survive the trip.
Your looking at something akin to the settlers going west ordeals but much, much worse.
It would become out of nessessity a small community of farmers and of those how many would be mages even if they were of lower level.
How many of those mages are going to progress in spells with nothing and nobody out there, they will have to come all the way back east to do that, why would they bother to go back west?

There are threads and threads and posts and posts here with many people here adamant that there is monsters and mayhem at every turn in the wilderness, well this thread should be no exception.
setting up a village out in the middle of nowhere was hard for the settlers then, it's only many magnitudes harder now, reguardless of how many lower level mages end up there.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Build a town with what?
A bunch of low level mages, a few cybernights, and a bunch of farmers and city folks.
The farmers are going to go off and do what they do and know, farming and not off to build some town that could get them into trouble. again.
The natives may already have control of the magic rich areas and if they don't then some 'things' that the refugees couldn't handle will, strike magic rich area off list.
Only the most adventurous of the refugess even want to go that far west -aftermath.
There isnt going to be a 'city', a town at best.

How does every city start?
Come on, think about it many major cities in our world started as small towns or even villages.

Of course that's how they started many, many, many years ago.
How many villages and towns started back then and never came of anything, how many became ghost towns when everyone moved off to someplace 'better', alot.
The natives would still be able to deal with them wouldn't they.
Natives who have both magic and tech. -see preserves as Dustin mentioned.
How many villages evolved into towns and of those into cities, not many.
They are way off on the beaten path, there is no reason to go waaaaay over to that 'village'.
How many of those adventurous few refugees that want to go that far west would even survive the trip.
Your looking at something akin to the settlers going west ordeals but much, much worse.
It would become out of nessessity a small community of farmers and of those how many would be mages even if they were of lower level.
How many of those mages are going to progress in spells with nothing and nobody out there, they will have to come all the way back east to do that, why would they bother to go back west?

Yep. The people of Tolkeen just went through their apocalypse. It's December 22, 2098 all over again for them. Since the population of Tolkeen never really believed they would be overrun they didn't prepare themselves - a "bug out bag" as it were.

(Actually I thought I recall some reference to how many towns "make it" in the Adventure Guide. Pathetically small number IIRC)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Any option for a new Tolkeen means they'll have to seek allies with South america and Phaseworld to really work.

Moving to California might be an option, but that means they're smack dap in the middle between Indians who don't want white people, and Monsters that want to eat them, and Vampires.

The indians out there are by and large stone age people in tech. They're not exactly going to take out a city of Mages all on their own.

Monsters are a problem every where, but again, Dragons, and mages and stuff, they can do ok.

There's other stuff out there. The CO baronies are closer. (( not RIGHT there, but closer than SA or Phaseworld))

You might want to re-read about the "Valley Preserve" in California. It's a third non-Native Americans.

(Also a number of preserves have tech that is on par with the CS.)

Where's the Valley Preserve found? I'll look into it.

And Yeah, I pointed out that "By and Large" they're stone age tech. Those that aren't are few and far between (( like.. 6 or 10 across the entire contenent?)) and none of them are friendly to people that are not them.

[Faceless Dude]

Rather than trying to find a new place to turn into a home, I think its more likely that refugees looking for a place to go will try and find somewhere already established. Lazlo and Dweomer have been mentioned but I'd suspect Arzno to get a large share of the Tolkeen population too, for a couple reasons:

1, Lazlo, New Lazlo, and even Dweomer are to some degree in the Coalitions sights. The CS wants to expand right through the corridor between Chi-Town and Free Quebec, where two of those cities are, and the third is in the Magic Zone, which the CS is sure to deal with sooner rather than later. Arzno is another city built on a magic and tolerance foundation, and is remote enough to not warrant irect confrontation with the CS for one time.

2, Per Aftermath, a sizable number of refugees were rescued and given a place in cloud cities set up by Cyber-Knights working with Lyn-Syral. They're based in the Grand Canyon as well and could help with safe transport (couldn't a cloud city just float there?).

I don't have it with me, but I'm pretty sure the Arzno book details having to deal with a flood of Tolkeen refugees.

[Gamer]

Ninjabunny,
The thing is you don't see it, and it is no offense to you or any one else on it.
There is NOTHING OUT THERE in California to support the growth of a town to a city and to maintain it.

The best place to build a 'New Tolkeen' is Arzno it already has 5,000 refugees there.
It is already established, it is already semi stable- although an high influx of refugees will change that.
It has the magic rich enviroment, it has trade and so on, it could become a city a 'New Tolkeen' if you will.

Authors in such settings when they build cities don't seem to take into account that it takes alot to maintain a city even a magic one.
Key question: WHY is it prosperous enough to become a city and what is keeping it that way.
That is how our major cities came into existance as well and why other places didn't succeed.
So just what in California is going to make this village prosporous enough to become a town then become a city?
And it will take a few decades to accomplish.
I can't just dream up a city made by the refugees and make it plausable that is not how it works.
I can dream up one that would already be in existance and then dream up ways as why it came to be and how it keeps going but not one that clearly doesn't exist and there is nothing way out there to support it.

[Gamer]

Any option for a new Tolkeen means they'll have to seek allies with South america and Phaseworld to really work.

Moving to California might be an option, but that means they're smack dap in the middle between Indians who don't want white people, and Monsters that want to eat them, and Vampires.

The indians out there are by and large stone age people in tech. They're not exactly going to take out a city of Mages all on their own.

Monsters are a problem every where, but again, Dragons, and mages and stuff, they can do ok.

There's other stuff out there. The CO baronies are closer. (( not RIGHT there, but closer than SA or Phaseworld))

You might want to re-read about the "Valley Preserve" in California. It's a third non-Native Americans.

(Also a number of preserves have tech that is on par with the CS.)

Where's the Valley Preserve found? I'll look into it.

And Yeah, I pointed out that "By and Large" they're stone age tech. Those that aren't are few and far between (( like.. 6 or 10 across the entire contenent?)) and none of them are friendly to people that are not them.

Only 58% of those on that preserve are traditionalists.
12% modern, 20% renegade 10% other -spirit west.
More than a match for any refugees they don't want there.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Any option for a new Tolkeen means they'll have to seek allies with South america and Phaseworld to really work.

Moving to California might be an option, but that means they're smack dap in the middle between Indians who don't want white people, and Monsters that want to eat them, and Vampires.

The indians out there are by and large stone age people in tech. They're not exactly going to take out a city of Mages all on their own.

Monsters are a problem every where, but again, Dragons, and mages and stuff, they can do ok.

There's other stuff out there. The CO baronies are closer. (( not RIGHT there, but closer than SA or Phaseworld))

You might want to re-read about the "Valley Preserve" in California. It's a third non-Native Americans.

(Also a number of preserves have tech that is on par with the CS.)

Where's the Valley Preserve found? I'll look into it.

And Yeah, I pointed out that "By and Large" they're stone age tech. Those that aren't are few and far between (( like.. 6 or 10 across the entire contenent?)) and none of them are friendly to people that are not them.

Only 58% of those on that preserve are traditionalists.
12% modern, 20% renegade 10% other -spirit west.
More than a match for any refugees they don't want there.

Dragons. *Waves hand* 60% of stone age natives run away. lol

Seriously though. There's 1000s of square miles out there. Most of in unclaimed. You just set up where the natives aren't.

[Gamer]

Dragons. *Waves hand* 60% of stone age natives run away. lol