Full Conversion Cyborgs, Endurance, and Sleep

[Mad Cow Milk]

I was wondering if there was any printed rules, errata's, or rifters that covered full borg Endurance and Sleep.

I imagine you do need one for things such as magic saving throws.

Thank you.

[Dr. Doom III]

Yep brains needs sleep not the body.

[dragonfett]

I would say use the character's ME instead of PE when it comes to sleep, but then again I also have my players keep track of what their PE was prior to getting the full combat conversion for the little things that may come up and stuff.

[Nightmask]

Given human beings go stark raving insane without sleep unless the cyborg comes from some alien that doesn't need sleep or a super who doesn't need sleep all cyborgs require sleep. They may not require an 8hr sleep period and get by on a 2-4hr downtime but the brain definitely requires a few sleep cycles in order to remain sane and rational. Someone who insists that their borg never sleeps because they simply refuse to accept that needs insanities right and left stacked onto him because that's just the nature of human brains.

[Killer Cyborg]

Unless otherwise stated, they require 8 hours of sleep, same as anybody else.

And they dream of electric sheep.

[Colt47]

I did find it odd that cyborgs had no given Physical endurance, even for basic saves. I know with my own OCC I built recently I actually assigned it a PE score for terms of saves and other things that might come up, even though it isn't technically alive.

When I think of physical endurance, it isn't how tough the person is, but rather how far they can run in one go, how resistant they are to getting sick, etc.

[Nightmask]

I did find it odd that cyborgs had no given Physical endurance, even for basic saves. I know with my own OCC I built recently I actually assigned it a PE score for terms of saves and other things that might come up, even though it isn't technically alive.

When I think of physical endurance, it isn't how tough the person is, but rather how far they can run in one go, how resistant they are to getting sick, etc.

The think is though a cyborg is little more than a human brain piloting a robot, there isn't anything left to constitute a physical endurance for them. Everything about them is an electro-mechanical system short of that lump of brain tissue and it can't really have much of a physical endurance when that's all that's left of it.

[Colt47]

I did find it odd that cyborgs had no given Physical endurance, even for basic saves. I know with my own OCC I built recently I actually assigned it a PE score for terms of saves and other things that might come up, even though it isn't technically alive.

When I think of physical endurance, it isn't how tough the person is, but rather how far they can run in one go, how resistant they are to getting sick, etc.

The think is though a cyborg is little more than a human brain piloting a robot, there isn't anything left to constitute a physical endurance for them. Everything about them is an electro-mechanical system short of that lump of brain tissue and it can't really have much of a physical endurance when that's all that's left of it.

My thought was that they basically replace the skeletal and muscular structure with a bionic equivalent and keep useful organs in place. This way the borg would still be able to experience normal things like eating food and drinking booze. I'd imagine the bionic systems would include waste disposal units that take care of the waste normally generated by the body.

[dragonfett]

I do recall reading somewhere that almost all of the vital organs (stomache, lungs, intestines, spine, heart, brain) are kept/replaced with bio equivilants.

[Nightmask]

The official line in SB5 and RUE IIRC is that the torso and skull are shells and that the internal organs are mostly retained. Typically FC borgs can even choose to keep their original face.

That's also the way I play it. I believe that the brain needs a host of ancillary organs to survive; primarily blood, and if you have blood you need bonemarrow, liver, kidneys, some type of heart, and some type of lungs and at least a partial digestive system. You'd also need a lymphatic system, and endocrine system. Otherwize you'd need artificial analogues of all those organs just to keep the brain alive and provide the soup of hormones that create human thought.

In my view it's simpler just to maintain most of the original organs. (albeit; they'd probably be extremely atrophied.)

That doesn't sound like anything close to being a full conversion (and your list is long enough you effectively are maintaining most of the original organs). That's way too much remaining organics to even be close to being anything other than a partial conversion. The brain just needs a compatible delivery system of oxygen and other nutrition it doesn't require blood cells (reminds me of an old sci-fi story of a guy made into a full conversion cyborg after an accident and goes into a hates all humans deal until he finds out his blood is deteriorating and takes his ex's blood to replace it only to have his planetary defenses destroy it because it's programmed to destroy anything organic; talk about a sci-fi writer totally clueless even for the time period about blood). Certainly no need for all the rest of that you've listed.

[Armorlord]

Hey folks, I just flew in from the Bionics Sourcebook, and boy are my bionic arms not tired at all.

Partial Conversion borgs try to retain what healthy organs they can, but 70% of the time the major ones are replaced.

Total Conversion borgs retain "Only the brain, the face, and a few other human components, especially the tongue. throat, and head are all that remains of the original flesh and blood body." Some drop the face as well. "The new, bionic body is effectively a fully functional robot that responds to a human brain".

Can't find any commentary on sleep, but I've allowed for fully conversion to push the limits on sleep more easily than a full human, but under normal circumstances they still require rest to stay sane and sharp. I peg it around 6 hours on average. Though I might be biased as that's more my average.

I also allow for nutrient filtration systems that can be set to allow certain substances to be allowed through the filters in controlled amounts, generally requiring presets programmed in by a medical professional. Thus some models could opt for some caffeine, or booze, and have it have some effect. The Warlords of Russia being the only power that includes both options as standard equipment.

[Colt47]

Hey folks, I just flew in from the Bionics Sourcebook, and boy are my bionic arms not tired at all.

Partial Conversion borgs try to retain what healthy organs they can, but 70% of the time the major ones are replaced.

Total Conversion borgs retain "Only the brain, the face, and a few other human components, especially the tongue. throat, and head are all that remains of the original flesh and blood body." Some drop the face as well. "The new, bionic body is effectively a fully functional robot that responds to a human brain".

Can't find any commentary on sleep, but I've allowed for fully conversion to push the limits on sleep more easily than a full human, but under normal circumstances they still require rest to stay sane and sharp. I peg it around 6 hours on average. Though I might be biased as that's more my average.

I also allow for nutrient filtration systems that can be set to allow certain substances to be allowed through the filters in controlled amounts, generally requiring presets programmed in by a medical professional. Thus some models could opt for some caffeine, or booze, and have it have some effect. The Warlords of Russia being the only power that includes both options as standard equipment.

So most of the organs supporting the brain are replaced by bionic systems that take over the necessary roles. I still think something should be done with the PE score, as leaving it blank kind of makes it ambiguous. I mean, there's still something alive in there even if it is only a brain hooked up to life support.

Maybe PE score should represent the level that the life support is working at? PE of 10 would be a good human analog.

[FreelancerMar]

I think you folks should just sit down and watch the First Robocop movie. I think that represents a FC borg and it's systems Fairly well.

The Human Brain(and most non-supernatural brains) does still need to take in nutriants, oxygen, etc... on a regular basis in order to survive and to continue to function properly. That is a Biological FACT. The brain also still needs a blood supply circulation system of some type too.

I also agree that the Brain needs at the very least 3-4 hours of sleep every 24 hours in order to function properly. You know how you get when you are tired. Oftentimes you cannot even think properly untill you get some rest or sleep.

Thus ends the post.

[Zamion138]

one nice thing though is you can sleep standing up with your weapon ready or looking like your doing something.......set your arms to turn a book page every 4 or 5 minutes and go to sleep.
3 cyborgs on guard on the wall, well maybe only ones actualy awake and the other 2 are alseep but their bodies look like cyborgs standing motionless over the target. something happens and he radios them to wake up and shoot randomly at least to look like they were not sleeping if anyone footing the bill was watching.

That said the longest ive ever stayed up with nothing stronger than coffee and soda was nearing 70ish hours.....probaly could of went anouther 5 or 10 but I was deffintly not paying close mind to anything and was being very weird im told. I do rember seeing tracers and shadows moving on me and being kinda parinoid. When I did drugs alot id say 90+ hours was my longest run and its hard to say if it was lack of sleep or drugs that made me weird and I deffintly saw things that were not there. ( Dont do meth its horrible....yeah it had no redeeming value looking back) but your mind needs to rest and id say at least 4 hours of sleep for a cyborg a day is healthy.