I am lost, Automatic Rifles?

[Mad Cow Milk]

So I am playing a Light Full Conversion Borg from Rifts Russian.

In the class it says I get W.P. Automatic Rifle. I have been looking all over the books and there is no listing for MD rifles... Can anyone please tell me what my options are then? Can anyone help? I could swear this is some sort of typo, but looks like my GM might insist playing as is.

Thanks,
MCM

[ShadowLogan]

Some of the weapons available to cybernetic/bionic implants are M.D. projectile weapons. At the very least this would allow for M.D ammunition for an assault rifle beyond the ramjet rounds (which might not be available in Russia).

[Killer Cyborg]

So I am playing a Light Full Conversion Borg from Rifts Russian.

In the class it says I get W.P. Automatic Rifle. I have been looking all over the books and there is no listing for MD rifles... Can anyone please tell me what my options are then? Can anyone help? I could swear this is some sort of typo, but looks like my GM might insist playing as is.

Thanks,
MCM

Are you assuming that Borgs are only ever proficient in MD weapons?

In any case, there are ramjet rounds and explosive rounds that can inflict mega-damage.

[Mad Cow Milk]

So I am playing a Light Full Conversion Borg from Rifts Russian.

In the class it says I get W.P. Automatic Rifle. I have been looking all over the books and there is no listing for MD rifles... Can anyone please tell me what my options are then? Can anyone help? I could swear this is some sort of typo, but looks like my GM might insist playing as is.

Thanks,
MCM

Are you assuming that Borgs are only ever proficient in MD weapons?

In any case, there are ramjet rounds and explosive rounds that can inflict mega-damage.

I don't see that much of a point in SDC weapons really. With monsters a foot, if you are going to point a weapon at anything, your going to want to kill it. I suppose there is SOME reasons for a SDC weapon, such as to have while your in a restricted city.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't see that much of a point in SDC weapons really. With monsters a foot, if you are going to point a weapon at anything, your going to want to kill it.

The presence of Mega-Damage monsters does not negate the presence of everything else.
Remember, mega-damage is supposed to be relatively rare.
And expensive.

But if it helps you any, load it with silver bullets and hope for vampires.

[azazel1024]

I can think of hundreds of reasons. Is there ever a reason in real life that a person would want to use a rifle instead of a machine gun? I mean the machine gun is generally better at getting stuff dead.

SDC over MD weapon, reason 1. Restricted in a city.

Reason 2. You are in an environment where overkill is bad (onboard ship, a spaceship, in a policing setting in an urban environment, in side of a building, a laboratory, etc).

Reason 3. You need a silenced weapon. MD weapons, with the little info available in their descriptions cannot be silenced. A laser weapon or ion beam weapon isn't necessarily going to make a ton of noise on its own, liberating the kind of energy to melt through or blast an SDC TANK however is going to make a huge racket when it hits something (anything), and vaporizes it.

Reason 4. Range. Plenty of MD rifles don't have a huge range. Plenty of SDC rifles have tons of range. Granted it isn't necessarily automatic, but there are plenty of SDC sniper rifles that have a range out to 1,000yds (not so much stated out in the game mind you), not so for most man portable MD weapons, let alone ones meant for accuracy.

Reason 5. Training. Get everyone suited up in MD armor and you know a great way to train against them, shot them with SDC weapons.

Reason 6. Hunting. You hit a deer with a .223, 5.56, .30-30, .30-06, .25, 7.62, etc and you have dinner unless you just graze it. You hit a deer with a light megadamage laser rifle and you might be able to cook up some limbs and maybe the head if they didn't get blasted too far away for you to find.

I could probably think up of a few more if you gave me a bit.

*edit* Oh yes, vampires and othe silver vulnerable creatures.

[taalismn]

Besides, can you imagine a Russian WITHOUT the ability to use an AK? Of any model? It's a cultural thing.
The AK-47 and its derivatives/descendants are the cockroaches of the gun world...post-apocalyptic Russians are probably WEANED on them.
Once MD explosive and ramjet bullets hit the Russian markets, it's just ice in the vodka.

[Zer0 Kay]

Some of the weapons available to cybernetic/bionic implants are M.D. projectile weapons. At the very least this would allow for M.D ammunition for an assault rifle beyond the ramjet rounds (which might not be available in Russia).

And how would one create a round that produced MD without ramjet for a standard assault rifle? More powder = more heat and possibly blowing the gun apart. DU = a percentage increase not automatic MD capability. Only RJ works and wouldn't damage the weapon because it fires normally and then accelerates once outside the barrel. Now... maybe a magic induced MD... but then that is bordering on infringing on the caster gun.

[Zer0 Kay]

I don't see that much of a point in SDC weapons really. With monsters a foot, if you are going to point a weapon at anything, your going to want to kill it.

The presence of Mega-Damage monsters does not negate the presence of everything else.
Remember, mega-damage is supposed to be relatively rare.
And expensive.

But if it helps you any, load it with silver bullets and hope for vampires.

Hey that would work against werewolves and several other creatures too. Maybe do silver and iron mix?

[Zer0 Kay]

Besides, can you imagine a Russian WITHOUT the ability to use an AK? Of any model? It's a cultural thing.
The AK-47 and its derivatives/descendants are the cockroaches of the gun world...post-apocalyptic Russians are probably WEANED on them.
Once MD explosive and ramjet bullets hit the Russian markets, it's just ice in the vodka.

Arrabble cough. The only reason Russia has the AK is because they cant afford M-16 . The shotgun does not get enough love in Rifts in my opinion. Talk about a versatile weapon !

Yeah because everyone wants the old M-16 that jammed more frequently than an AK and all AK's have more damage capability with the larger round... but IIRC their range is shorter for it.

[Zer0 Kay]

I can think of hundreds of reasons. Is there ever a reason in real life that a person would want to use a rifle instead of a machine gun? I mean the machine gun is generally better at getting stuff dead.

Cuz machine gun is heavier, machine gun eats bullets for breakfast, lunch, dinner, brunch, linner, 4th meal, and all 12 snacks... first thing in the morning. Because of the high ammo useage it requires more rounds which are again heavier. Each successive round beyond the first is less accurate. The machine gun is best used for cover fire. A machine gun is no better than a rifle at getting something dead, it just has the potential for volume. It is just an issue of quantity vs. quality, of the kills not the weapon.

[azazel1024]

Outside of Rifts as well. A shotgun is a significantly better self defense weapon than a rifle in 99.99% of situations that a home owner could find themselves in and shotguns are probably better in 90% of self defense situations than handguns. However, rifles have quite a bit of popularity as do handguns.

You have slugs, rifled slugs (for the right kind of shotgun), bird shot, pepper shot, rock salt, tearball and buck shot. At shorter ranges a shotgun with buck or bird shot is a hell of a lot more likely to hit a target than a pistol or rifle is, especially for someone who isn't a marksman, in the dark, etc.

Now lets add the intimidation factor of racking a shell.

Finally a short barrel shotgun is a lot handier than a rifle, if not quite as handy as a pistol in close quarters.

For MD bullets, you could utilize explosive bullets, ramjets, a standard assualt rifle made with MD materials designed for breech pressures of a +P round capable of MD or lastly a sabot round with a high density MD subcaliber round. Say something maybe more dense than WC or DU in a tiny little subcaliber round with a sabot and super high velocity with a standard propellant charge, or just a regular +P charge. Say a 3mm subcaliber round in a 7.62x51mm rifle.

Stopping power on the 7.62x39 is significantly less than the 5.56x45 at longer ranges as is penetration. At shorter ranges under about 100yds, the 7.62x39 is a much better round, at 100-200yds there isn't a whole heck of a lot of difference, and over 200yds the 5.56x45 NATO tends to perform much better. Supposedly the US mil is looking at a 6.5x47 (Lapua) I think due to its much better ballistics from short to long range than the 5.56 and much greater stopping power, while still retaining resonable cartridge weight and size as well as recoil.

[Zer0 Kay]

Besides, can you imagine a Russian WITHOUT the ability to use an AK? Of any model? It's a cultural thing.
The AK-47 and its derivatives/descendants are the cockroaches of the gun world...post-apocalyptic Russians are probably WEANED on them.
Once MD explosive and ramjet bullets hit the Russian markets, it's just ice in the vodka.

Arrabble cough. The only reason Russia has the AK is because they cant afford M-16 . The shotgun does not get enough love in Rifts in my opinion. Talk about a versatile weapon !

The M-16 as better that's funny


One big reason for sdc is hunting.

Hey it is... uh... lighter, more accurate and has a higher cyclic rate. But most certainly less damage and is considered less sturdy.

Edit: Oh yeah and I forgot that the AR-15 is easier to convert to automatic than the civilian AK-47 is. Cuz you file something down on the AR but the AK you have to add something. So that could be good or bad depending on your point of view.

[taalismn]

Besides, can you imagine a Russian WITHOUT the ability to use an AK? Of any model? It's a cultural thing.
The AK-47 and its derivatives/descendants are the cockroaches of the gun world...post-apocalyptic Russians are probably WEANED on them.
Once MD explosive and ramjet bullets hit the Russian markets, it's just ice in the vodka.

Arrabble cough. The only reason Russia has the AK is because they cant afford M-16 . The shotgun does not get enough love in Rifts in my opinion. Talk about a versatile weapon !

That's why I created an 80mm pump-action shotgun cannon for full conversion 'borgs. And massdriver shotguns that handle handfuls of nails.
The South American automatic shotgun should see greater distribution in my opinion.

[Zer0 Kay]

Outside of Rifts as well. A shotgun is a significantly better self defense weapon than a rifle in 99.99% of situations that a home owner could find themselves in and shotguns are probably better in 90% of self defense situations than handguns. However, rifles have quite a bit of popularity as do handguns.

You have slugs, rifled slugs (for the right kind of shotgun), bird shot, pepper shot, rock salt, tearball and buck shot. At shorter ranges a shotgun with buck or bird shot is a hell of a lot more likely to hit a target than a pistol or rifle is, especially for someone who isn't a marksman, in the dark, etc.

Now lets add the intimidation factor of racking a shell.

Finally a short barrel shotgun is a lot handier than a rifle, if not quite as handy as a pistol in close quarters.

For MD bullets, you could utilize explosive bullets, ramjets, a standard assualt rifle made with MD materials designed for breech pressures of a +P round capable of MD or lastly a sabot round with a high density MD subcaliber round. Say something maybe more dense than WC or DU in a tiny little subcaliber round with a sabot and super high velocity with a standard propellant charge, or just a regular +P charge. Say a 3mm subcaliber round in a 7.62x51mm rifle.

Stopping power on the 7.62x39 is significantly less than the 5.56x45 at longer ranges as is penetration. At shorter ranges under about 100yds, the 7.62x39 is a much better round, at 100-200yds there isn't a whole heck of a lot of difference, and over 200yds the 5.56x45 NATO tends to perform much better. Supposedly the US mil is looking at a 6.5x47 (Lapua) I think due to its much better ballistics from short to long range than the 5.56 and much greater stopping power, while still retaining resonable cartridge weight and size as well as recoil.

You know that many of those home defense issues... in the dark... could be solved by working the handle on one of those old spunge mops... sounds a lot like a shotgun pump. Of course if the person is insistant on not leaving it isn't going to do much good.

[azazel1024]

My home defense is a 30 inch aluminum bat, a 5.5 inch medium duty fix blade knife and hoping they don't have a gun or if they do shoot for ****. They work equally well in the dark

The 2.5lb wood axe and 12lb sledge stay out in my workshop/shed, so sadly neither more intimidating item would be available (unless it was a zombie outbreak and I had a couple of minutes.

[ShadowLogan]

Some of the weapons available to cybernetic/bionic implants are M.D. projectile weapons. At the very least this would allow for M.D ammunition for an assault rifle beyond the ramjet rounds (which might not be available in Russia).

And how would one create a round that produced MD without ramjet for a standard assault rifle? More powder = more heat and possibly blowing the gun apart. DU = a percentage increase not automatic MD capability. Only RJ works and wouldn't damage the weapon because it fires normally and then accelerates once outside the barrel. Now... maybe a magic induced MD... but then that is bordering on infringing on the caster gun.

The rounds do M.D by a variety of methods: volume (burst), caliber (usually 1 M.D), explosive rounds. While the first two probably can't give you M.D in an assault rifle (unless it's giant size), the explosive rounds are an option.

RMB pg241/RUE pg 52/Bionic SB pg95 "Forearm Mini-Machinegun". Different discriptions, but the weapon is M.D capable using bursts. The newer sources have stats for S.D. and M.D. rounds listed seperately (no change in the M.D burst damage, only in the volume)

RMB pg235/Bionics SB pg47 "Finger-gun" The caliber is .22 for the SDC, exploding bullets, and Mega-damage shells.

RMB pg 226-27/RUE pg266 "A.T.V Speedster Hover Cycle", "Wastelander Motorcycle", and "Highway-man Motorcycle" all have a machinegun option that do M.D. in bursts.

[Saitou Hajime]

the AK will still be firing bullet when you Grandkids have grandkids! ' NUFF said!

[Mack]

So I am playing a Light Full Conversion Borg from Rifts Russian.

In the class it says I get W.P. Automatic Rifle. I have been looking all over the books and there is no listing for MD rifles... Can anyone please tell me what my options are then? Can anyone help? I could swear this is some sort of typo, but looks like my GM might insist playing as is.

Thanks,
MCM

Recommend trying Mercs (page 103) and Merc Ops (pages 99, 100, and 121).

[Akashic Soldier]

PLAYER 1: "Oh **** I missed."
GM: "The hull bursts open and yourself and several crew mates are sucked into the vacumm of space."

***

PLAYER 2: "Shoot the bastard in the leg Chip!"
PLAYER 1: "On it!"
KAAA--ZOOORCH!!!
PLAYER 2: "We needed this guy for questioning, if I wanted him to look like this I would've had the Wizard cast his Polymoph to Chared Corpse spell..."

***

PLAYER 1's DAD: "Well Chip, one day we're going to remove your fragile fleshy body so there's no point in learning how to use this rifle during our hunting trip. "
PLAYER 1: "Dad how come we are hunting deers with automatic weapons?"
PLAYER 1's DAD: "The deer are wizards now son. The deer are wizards now."

***

EMPLOYER: "Well you guys did a fantastic job YET AGAIN so here is this weeks pay."
PLAYER 1: "Why do I have less than a third of what everyone else has?"
EMPLOYER: "Why did I have to spend that money cleaning Gargoyle out of the walls. Oh better yet, why do I have to pay massive bribes to various law enforcement agencies just so you can walk around the damn city."

***

PLAYER 1: "Don't worry Clementine hold on tight and i'll deal with these guys with my trusty super laser. Hmmm... its jammed."
GAZOOKARATOOOM!
PLAYER 1's fleshy girlfriend Clementine: "I never should have agreed to being used in this example!"
*Clementine is reduced to atomic ash*

Now if that was a regular weapon that'd Jammed, maybe young Clementine might have survived because automatic weapons don't tend to EXPLODE in MDC death if there is a fault in them. Sure you're GM would have to be a total dick OR someone would have had to have sabotaged your weapon beforehand while you were shaving for your hot date (Chip kept his face because thats how he rolls) but if it was a regular SDC weapon at worst case scenario youre going to put a few little holes in the wrong wall or its just not going to fire.

Sure it won't always hurt the hulking monstrosities that go bump in the night but it also wont automatically kill anyone or anything that isn't MDC and its ALWAYS good to be a versatile combat engine, especially if you're a borg. I mean, if they wanted something that pointed and shot the biggest gun they had they'd just use a tank, or a robot, or a robot tank and even then they're likely to have SDC flame throwers and other weapons.

I'd remember bigger guns have bigger risks and certain groups don't have access to certain types of weapons so if you wanted, no, if you NEEDED to masquerade as a guerrilla solder with the help of some synth skin and the guerrilla's handed you a rife and you had NO clue they're going to know you're not one of them and then feed you to their pet cyborg Gorilla Hanz.

~End Pointless Rambling.

[taalismn]

...How the hell do you manage to jam a laser?!....It has fewer moving parts than an automatic weapon...

[Akashic Soldier]

:-? ...How the hell do you manage to jam a laser?!....It has fewer moving parts than an automatic weapon...

Filling it with nacho cheese while drunk on energon and out at your friends bucks night. (I just couldn't be asked using the word overload because I am in a stupid mood) and watching BAD Super Robot cartoons that're about 15 years older than me.

[Mad Cow Milk]

I can think of hundreds of reasons. Is there ever a reason in real life that a person would want to use a rifle instead of a machine gun? I mean the machine gun is generally better at getting stuff dead.

SDC over MD weapon, reason 1. Restricted in a city.

Reason 2. You are in an environment where overkill is bad (onboard ship, a spaceship, in a policing setting in an urban environment, in side of a building, a laboratory, etc).

Reason 3. You need a silenced weapon. MD weapons, with the little info available in their descriptions cannot be silenced. A laser weapon or ion beam weapon isn't necessarily going to make a ton of noise on its own, liberating the kind of energy to melt through or blast an SDC TANK however is going to make a huge racket when it hits something (anything), and vaporizes it.

Reason 4. Range. Plenty of MD rifles don't have a huge range. Plenty of SDC rifles have tons of range. Granted it isn't necessarily automatic, but there are plenty of SDC sniper rifles that have a range out to 1,000yds (not so much stated out in the game mind you), not so for most man portable MD weapons, let alone ones meant for accuracy.

Reason 5. Training. Get everyone suited up in MD armor and you know a great way to train against them, shot them with SDC weapons.

Reason 6. Hunting. You hit a deer with a .223, 5.56, .30-30, .30-06, .25, 7.62, etc and you have dinner unless you just graze it. You hit a deer with a light megadamage laser rifle and you might be able to cook up some limbs and maybe the head if they didn't get blasted too far away for you to find.

I could probably think up of a few more if you gave me a bit.

*edit* Oh yes, vampires and othe silver vulnerable creatures.

Okay thanks

[Mercdog]

PLAYER 1's DAD: "Well Chip, one day we're going to remove your fragile fleshy body so there's no point in learning how to use this rifle during our hunting trip. "
PLAYER 1: "Dad how come we are hunting deers with automatic weapons?"
PLAYER 1's DAD: "The deer are wizards now son. The deer are wizards now."

Thanks, I needed that.

[Zer0 Kay]

Some of the weapons available to cybernetic/bionic implants are M.D. projectile weapons. At the very least this would allow for M.D ammunition for an assault rifle beyond the ramjet rounds (which might not be available in Russia).

And how would one create a round that produced MD without ramjet for a standard assault rifle? More powder = more heat and possibly blowing the gun apart. DU = a percentage increase not automatic MD capability. Only RJ works and wouldn't damage the weapon because it fires normally and then accelerates once outside the barrel. Now... maybe a magic induced MD... but then that is bordering on infringing on the caster gun.

The rounds do M.D by a variety of methods: volume (burst), caliber (usually 1 M.D), explosive rounds. While the first two probably can't give you M.D in an assault rifle (unless it's giant size), the explosive rounds are an option.

RMB pg241/RUE pg 52/Bionic SB pg95 "Forearm Mini-Machinegun". Different discriptions, but the weapon is M.D capable using bursts. The newer sources have stats for S.D. and M.D. rounds listed seperately (no change in the M.D burst damage, only in the volume)

RMB pg235/Bionics SB pg47 "Finger-gun" The caliber is .22 for the SDC, exploding bullets, and Mega-damage shells.

RMB pg 226-27/RUE pg266 "A.T.V Speedster Hover Cycle", "Wastelander Motorcycle", and "Highway-man Motorcycle" all have a machinegun option that do M.D. in bursts.

K so we got explosive (which I forgot about ) and RJ rounds. FOR AN ASSAULT RIFLE!

[Akashic Soldier]

Thanks, I needed that.

[Zer0 Kay]

Besides, can you imagine a Russian WITHOUT the ability to use an AK? Of any model? It's a cultural thing.
The AK-47 and its derivatives/descendants are the cockroaches of the gun world...post-apocalyptic Russians are probably WEANED on them.
Once MD explosive and ramjet bullets hit the Russian markets, it's just ice in the vodka.

Arrabble cough. The only reason Russia has the AK is because they cant afford M-16 . The shotgun does not get enough love in Rifts in my opinion. Talk about a versatile weapon !

Yeah because everyone wants the old M-16 that jammed more frequently than an AK and all AK's have more damage capability with the larger round... but IIRC their range is shorter for it.

Old. It must be remembered, when it was issued soldiers were told it did not have to be cleaned. Palladium book wise, Ak is the way to depending on what book you get it out of.

Um... I didn't take it from any PB. So... IRL 47 more damage 16 more range, more accuracy, less fatigue, more modular, more attachments. AK-74 and the AK-100 series are a bit better than the 47 for the other aspects but has a smaller round.

[Zer0 Kay]

Besides, can you imagine a Russian WITHOUT the ability to use an AK? Of any model? It's a cultural thing.
The AK-47 and its derivatives/descendants are the cockroaches of the gun world...post-apocalyptic Russians are probably WEANED on them.
Once MD explosive and ramjet bullets hit the Russian markets, it's just ice in the vodka.

Arrabble cough. The only reason Russia has the AK is because they cant afford M-16 . The shotgun does not get enough love in Rifts in my opinion. Talk about a versatile weapon !

The M-16 as better that's funny


One big reason for sdc is hunting.

Hey it is... uh... lighter, more accurate and has a higher cyclic rate. But most certainly less damage and is considered less sturdy.

Edit: Oh yeah and I forgot that the AR-15 is easier to convert to automatic than the civilian AK-47 is. Cuz you file something down on the AR but the AK you have to add something. So that could be good or bad depending on your point of view.

With both, for the most part, you add parts to to get full auto. With the AK you have to drill an extra hole. The AK wins hands down no questions for neglect and durability. Like the M-16, it filled its niche superbly, which was the rapid arming of a conscript army with an automatic weapon that's easy to use and gets lots of led down range. In versatility, the AR wins hands down. You can have any caliber you want by swapping the upper receiver from .22 long rifle to .50 BMG and all the hand gun rounds as well as the PSE TAC-15 crossbow upper ! In game terms, if the GM allows, you can have weapon about as versatile as the shot gun. And from a parts set you can build an AR/M-16 with a pair of vice grips and a screw driver, although that's not ideal. AK's are almost as easy, except you have to press the barrel trunnion. So If I was limited to Palladium M-16 or AK then it will be AK. If I get the versatility that exist for the M-16 then that's what my PC chooses every time. AK wins in ease of maintenance and use , M-16 for versatility. I added the crossbow link. Thought you guys would like to see that.

http://www.huntersfriend.com/products/a ... ssbow.html

If you swap out the upper receiver of a M-16 from a .222 to a .50 then it wouldn't be an M-16 any more... now would it. It isn't an AR/M-16 it is an AR-15 civilian or an M-16 military... the M-16 doesn't need a pair of vice grips or a screw driver. M-16 is the designation given to a specific weapon simply changing a few items on it changed its designation... twice and changing a lot of stuff completely changed its numbering. So NO the M-16 is NOT as versatile as you are making it out to be. The parts are absolutely. There are SOOOOOO freaking many variations on the weapon frame but changing anything that is integral to the M-16 changes the designation. As for ease of maintenance... I prefer taking apart a 16 to a 47. 47 has 7 parts in field breakdown... not including magazine. 16 has 8 (again w/o magazine)... not much of a difference eh? Now if you mean ease of maintenance as in doesn't require as much maintenance... your right. Considering even in excellent environmental conditions the 16 can stop working just from carbon build up. But the AR lower receiver has many many upper receivers one that is designed by H&K and doesn't have the gas tube exposion potential... because it uses a piston like the AKs.

[rat_bastard]

A automatic rifle with silver rounds decimates demons for an absurdly low cost.

[The Galactus Kid]

So I am playing a Light Full Conversion Borg from Rifts Russian.

In the class it says I get W.P. Automatic Rifle. I have been looking all over the books and there is no listing for MD rifles... Can anyone please tell me what my options are then? Can anyone help? I could swear this is some sort of typo, but looks like my GM might insist playing as is.

Thanks,
MCM

The class needs to be revised, IMHO

[Blindscout]

So I am playing a Light Full Conversion Borg from Rifts Russian.

In the class it says I get W.P. Automatic Rifle. I have been looking all over the books and there is no listing for MD rifles... Can anyone please tell me what my options are then? Can anyone help? I could swear this is some sort of typo, but looks like my GM might insist playing as is.

Thanks,
MCM

The class needs to be revised, IMHO

If only someone was working on new material for RIFTS Russia....if only.../sigh

[Comrade Corsarius]

The shotgun does not get enough love in Rifts in my opinion. Talk about a versatile weapon !

Rifts Australia has a very impressive MD Shotgun.

[Zer0 Kay]

A automatic rifle with silver rounds decimates demons for an absurdly low cost.

Which would do more a M-16 with silver rounds or a Pancor Jackhammer with Silver?

[azazel1024]

The M16 in DPS if you want to look at it. The M-16 has a higher cyclical rate of fire IIRC and has 3 times the ammo stowage in a magazine (without taking in to account all of the dozens of different extended magazines or feed systems), is faster to reload, and might well have faster cooling than a pancor jackhammer. You also have significantly more range and accurate range and more of the energy is going to be delivered to the target from an M-16 versus buckshot from the jackhammer at resonable ranges (IE not all of the buckshot spread is going to hit the target) (course solid slug per round if it hits delivers a lot more energy).

Either M-16 or AK-47 or -74 is not going to last several generations with its original parts all intact if used frequently. Wear alone will destroy the rifling in the barrel after a few tens of thousands of rounds, especially if not a lot of cooling is allowed. If used "infrequently" (maybe only a mag or two down range a week) and well maintained, then yes either should last generations.

[rat_bastard]

A automatic rifle with silver rounds decimates demons for an absurdly low cost.

Which would do more a M-16 with silver rounds or a Pancor Jackhammer with Silver?

Most likely the shpt gun, and then that depends on what book you get theM16 damage from. If you use the compendium of modern weapons then the m16 does 3d6 but the 223 round it fires does from 3 to 5 depending what page you are on.

A Pancor was a concept gun that never made it past the lab, a AA-12 would do more damage but its range would be decidedly inferior.

[The Galactus Kid]

So I am playing a Light Full Conversion Borg from Rifts Russian.

In the class it says I get W.P. Automatic Rifle. I have been looking all over the books and there is no listing for MD rifles... Can anyone please tell me what my options are then? Can anyone help? I could swear this is some sort of typo, but looks like my GM might insist playing as is.

Thanks,
MCM

The class needs to be revised, IMHO

If only someone was working on new material for RIFTS Russia....if only.../sigh

Thats next on my list of things to do for the book.

As for alternative rounds, those have already been written and put in the manuscript.

[Zer0 Kay]

A automatic rifle with silver rounds decimates demons for an absurdly low cost.

Which would do more a M-16 with silver rounds or a Pancor Jackhammer with Silver?

Most likely the shpt gun, and then that depends on what book you get theM16 damage from. If you use the compendium of modern weapons then the m16 does 3d6 but the 223 round it fires does from 3 to 5 depending what page you are on.

A Pancor was a concept gun that never made it past the lab, a AA-12 would do more damage but its range would be decidedly inferior.

It did make it out of the lab... straight to those movie armories.

[rat_bastard]

Its still a piece of equipment that never made it out of development, I would go with any of the real automatic shotguns that have seen real world use. Either a AA-12 for its fully automatic bursts of fin stabilized 12 gauge grenades or a Sagia for its battle proven idiotproofing.

[azazel1024]

Its still a piece of equipment that never made it out of development, I would go with any of the real automatic shotguns that have seen real world use. Either a AA-12 for its fully automatic bursts of fin stabilized 12 gauge grenades or a Sagia for its battle proven idiotproofing.

See, that is the part that scares me. That just means that idiots can carry it around and use it.

guns + idiots never sounds like a good idea IMHO

[Killer Cyborg]

Its still a piece of equipment that never made it out of development, I would go with any of the real automatic shotguns that have seen real world use. Either a AA-12 for its fully automatic bursts of fin stabilized 12 gauge grenades or a Sagia for its battle proven idiotproofing.

Since you mentioned it, a Saiga 12 might make a surprisingly decent weapon in Rifts.

Range: 300' (RUE 329)
Ammo Capacity: 5 round mags are standard, I believe, due to legal restrictions that wouldn't be in place in Rifts. There are also 10 round mags, and 20 round drums.
Damage: 3d6 per single shot to a 6' area (RGMG 112) (170 credits per plasma round)
Double damage for a short burst: 3 rounds spent, 6d6 MD

The blast are for a short burst would logically be the same as for a double-blast from a double-barreled shotgun, with with the plasma shells would be a 12' area.

So a 20 round drum of plasma rounds would cost 3400 credits, and allow you to crank out 6 bursts for 6d6 MD per burst, with a 12' area per burst, then have 2 single shots left over for 3d6 MD to a 6' area.

Compare to a C-27 Plasma Cannon..
The range on the C-27 is a LOT better at 1600'.
The C-27 would be more accurate, since it's a single shot weapon. Plus, it has a targeting scope.
The C-27 has 10 shots for 6d6 MD each, so it's got 4 more shots at maximum power than the Saiga.

The C-27 is the superior weapon, BUT...
-it weighs 12 lbs, versus the Saiga's 7 lbs, so it's a lot heavier
-It costs CR 32,000, versus whatever the Saiga 12 would cost. The RGMG lists the cost of a SDC shotgun at "300-900" credits, but they may have been thinking of more conventional shotguns. The Credit is, according to the MOPs supposed to be roughly equivalent to a dollar in a lot of cases, and a Saiga (with magazines and a drum) goes for nearly $2000 on one site I found.
So let's just err on the side of caution and say it's 2000 Credits. Hell, let's say it's 2500 Credits.
In a close-quarters firefight, it puts you nearly even with a CR 32,000 military grade weapon.

Let's compare ammo costs:
The C-27 costs 2000 to recharge the E-Cannister.
The Saiga 12 would cost 3,200 to reload the 20-round drum with plasma rounds.
So the Saiga costs more than 50% more to reload, but you can reload it 10 times for the price of one C-27 rifle. And in the world of Rifts, heck, you might be dead well before you have to reload that many times.
(Of course, the CS and certain other professional soldiers can recharge E-Cannisters effectively for free, so that's a HUGE advantage too).

Granted, the Saiga 12 would take WP Shotgun, not WP Automatic Rifle... so this is a tangent that doesn't necessarily help the original poster, unless the GM allows his WP to be swapped for Shotgun, or allows for the weapon to be used under WP Automatic Rifle due to its design.

[Killer Cyborg]

One thing that the OP might consider is something like the Black Dog with a 50 round drum.
Yeah, it's a .22 caliber.
Yeah, that's not necessarily a bad thing- you can carry a LOT of ammo with you, and it would be easy to get or manufacture high-capacity magazines or drums.

And we know that there's a Mega-Damage explosive round that comes in the .22 caliber, because on p. 47 of the Bionic Sourcebook, there's a bionic finger-gun that fires .22 caliber explosive rounds that inflict 1d4 MD.
Sure, you're not going to be cranking out super damage; a short burst only inflicts 2d4 MD.
But that's better than no Mega-Damage at all, if you're in a MD firefight.
And when you're not, you can swap in some normal ammo and go rabbit hunting.
Of course, the explosive rounds cost a lot (300-500 CR per round), so this still probably isn't what you have in mind.

I'll see if I can come up with something better.

[The Galactus Kid]

blah blah blah gun stuff

Where are you getting the damage for plasma rounds for the Saiga? Are you basing it off the rounds fromWB: 10? Just wondering...

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, one thing to consider is that the Weapon Proficiency that you have, "WP Automatic Rifles," is obsolete.
As of RUE, automatic rifles are lumped in with bolt-action and everything else, in the new skill "Weapon Proficiency: Rifles." (RUE 328)

If you point this out to your GM, he/she should allow you to update to the more encompassing skill.
While not perfect, this will allow you more versatility.

For example, you can now use that skill to use (if you can get one), the Provider .78 caliber rifle from Dinosaur Swamps.
It inflicts 1d6 MD per round and has a range of 4,000'.
Single shot only, but hey, it's a decent weapon for an MD conventional rifle.

Or, you could extrapolate from that rifle, and come up with something better.


For example:


The Bullhunter Arms .78 Caliber "Dino-Dropper" Assault Rifle

Too large and powerful for a normal human, this weapon was designed for Borgs, Juicers, and other M&Ms.* The technicians at Bullhunter have created an over-sized assault rifle using the same kalashnikov design as the popular AK-47, modified to use the big game anti-armor round utilized that has become popular due to Viggo's Custom Firearms' high-quality Provider single-shot rifle.

Weight: 50 lbs
Cartridge: .78 caliber (18 mm) armor-piercing explosive rounds (25 credits per round)
Mega-Damage: 3d6 MD per round, or 6d6 MD per burst
Rate of Fire: Single Shot, or 3-round burst
Range: 3,000'
Payload: 150-round electric drum magazine (CR 250 for extra drums)
Features: Extended Magazine, Flash Suppressor, Improved Balance (+1 to strike on all attacks, including Wild), Telescopic (10x) Laser Targeting Sight (+3 strike on Aimed shots)
Cost: 18,700 Credits

Special Penalties: Anyone firing the rifle that does not possess the skill WP Rifles is automatically stunned by the recoil. On a single shot, the shooter takes 1d4 SDC damage and loses 1 attack. On a burst, the shooter takes 3d4 SDC damage, loses one attack, falls over (requiring an attack to stand back up), and loses grip on the rifle as it goes flying 6d6 feet behind the shooter.
Shooters in mega-damage body armor (or with mega-damage bodies) can ignore the damage from firing the weapon, though they may still lose their attack, get knocked prone, and/or lose their grip on the weapon.
Characters that DO possess the skill must make a saving throw vs. Pain (10 or higher for a single shot, 15 for a burst) or suffer the effects listed above. Skilled shooters who are impervious to pain may safely ignore the SDC damage.


*Bullhunter Arms avoids antagonizing the CS whenever possible, and therefore avoids making any weapons that are specifically for supernatural creatures, although this weapon and certain others have a certain amount of popularity with them.

[Killer Cyborg]

blah blah blah gun stuff

Where are you getting the damage for plasma rounds for the Saiga? Are you basing it off the rounds fromWB: 10? Just wondering...

blah blah blah Damage: 3d6 per single shot to a 6' area (RGMG 112) (170 credits per plasma round) blah blah blah

Read between the blahs, man.

No idea if that was copied from some worldbook, or if it was something tossed in just for the RGMG.
Personally, I think it's a bit overpowered, but there it is.

[rat_bastard]

Its still a piece of equipment that never made it out of development, I would go with any of the real automatic shotguns that have seen real world use. Either a AA-12 for its fully automatic bursts of fin stabilized 12 gauge grenades or a Sagia for its battle proven idiotproofing.

See, that is the part that scares me. That just means that idiots can carry it around and use it.

guns + idiots never sounds like a good idea IMHO

The stresses of combat tend to make idiots of people.

[Shark_Force]

it's worth noting that the sagia vs CS weaponry comparison holds up one to one, but gets very different if you make it, say, three vs three due to the AOE available from plasma shells, since the people with the shotguns will have a fairly reasonable chance of catching two or even all three opponents in one shot if they can plan their attack well. this isn't likely to work out too nicely if you have 3 gang members vs 3 CS soldiers (unless those soldiers are the greenest of cannon fodder the CS sent to the tolkeen war, the soldiers will be trained to expect grenades and such - though of course anyone can get careless, and the gang could get lucky)... but if you compare it for, say, a farmer wanting to defend his fields from half a dozen supernatural monsters, the shotgun starts to look pretty good, imo.

[Killer Cyborg]

it's worth noting that the sagia vs CS weaponry comparison holds up one to one, but gets very different if you make it, say, three vs three due to the AOE available from plasma shells, since the people with the shotguns will have a fairly reasonable chance of catching two or even all three opponents in one shot if they can plan their attack well. this isn't likely to work out too nicely if you have 3 gang members vs 3 CS soldiers (unless those soldiers are the greenest of cannon fodder the CS sent to the tolkeen war, the soldiers will be trained to expect grenades and such - though of course anyone can get careless, and the gang could get lucky)... but if you compare it for, say, a farmer wanting to defend his fields from half a dozen supernatural monsters, the shotgun starts to look pretty good, imo.

Good point!

[Faceless Dude]

blah blah blah gun stuff

Where are you getting the damage for plasma rounds for the Saiga? Are you basing it off the rounds fromWB: 10? Just wondering...

blah blah blah Damage: 3d6 per single shot to a 6' area (RGMG 112) (170 credits per plasma round) blah blah blah

Read between the blahs, man.

No idea if that was copied from some worldbook, or if it was something tossed in just for the RGMG.
Personally, I think it's a bit overpowered, but there it is.

That info was in fact copied from WB10.

Another trick to do with the Saiga would be to convert it to fire other specialty ammo. The first that comes to mind would be the Triax Pump Rifle Rounds. Second though, I would convert it to fire the Bandit BigBore Shotgun rounds. They are light on Damage (only 2d4) but have probably the best knockdown chances in the game.

[Killer Cyborg]

blah blah blah gun stuff

Where are you getting the damage for plasma rounds for the Saiga? Are you basing it off the rounds fromWB: 10? Just wondering...

blah blah blah Damage: 3d6 per single shot to a 6' area (RGMG 112) (170 credits per plasma round) blah blah blah

Read between the blahs, man.

No idea if that was copied from some worldbook, or if it was something tossed in just for the RGMG.
Personally, I think it's a bit overpowered, but there it is.

That info was in fact copied from WB10.

Another trick to do with the Saiga would be to convert it to fire other specialty ammo. The first that comes to mind would be the Triax Pump Rifle Rounds.

I'm not sure if the size of the Pump Rounds is described anywhere, nor how big they are.

Second though, I would convert it to fire the Bandit BigBore Shotgun rounds. They are light on Damage (only 2d4) but have probably the best knockdown chances in the game.

Don't even get be started on those things.

[Faceless Dude]

Another trick to do with the Saiga would be to convert it to fire other specialty ammo. The first that comes to mind would be the Triax Pump Rifle Rounds.

I'm not sure if the size of the Pump Rounds is described anywhere, nor how big they are.

You are probably right. The Pump Rifle rounds are probably significantly smaller than traditional shotgun rounds. I am of course making this up, but considering the original Pump Rifle could carry 16 in what looks like an under the barrel tube, they've got to be smaller.

Second though, I would convert it to fire the Bandit BigBore Shotgun rounds. They are light on Damage (only 2d4) but have probably the best knockdown chances in the game.

Don't even get be started on those things.

It seems like I mised the party on those. Is there a locked thread somewhere I should read?
Still, if I'm going up against a group in MD armor where I have to take at least 1 prisoner, I think it's a better choice than most.