When???....

[Zenvis]

When will super powered beings have a mage and psychic as their equal? head to head they are doomed.

[AlanGunhouse]

When someone fixes the Mage and Psionic classes

[Sureshot]

The problem imo is that classes with superpowers can use them 24/7. Where the psychic and mage classes are limited by the PPE or ISP. Outside of HU I can see it as a balancing factor yet in a superheroic rpg not very superheroic imo. How many times in comics do you see psychics and mages run out of energy. "Sorry officer I would have saved that person jumping off a building except I ran out of PPE".

[Nightmask]

The problem imo is that classes with superpowers can use them 24/7. Where the psychic and mage classes are limited by the PPE or ISP. Outside of HU I can see it as a balancing factor yet in a superheroic rpg not very superheroic imo. How many times in comics do you see psychics and mages run out of energy. "Sorry officer I would have saved that person jumping off a building except I ran out of PPE".

Almost never, it's generally less a matter of running out of energy and more just being too exhausted or injured to draw on the power. Otherwise they can always make use of their powers just like the supers can.

[Severus Snape]

ISP and PPE are the reasons I never play psychics or mages. Why run out of powers when you can play something that has limitless powers?

A thought: Drastically reduce the amount of ISP and PPE someone has, and limit the total number of psionic abilities or known spells based on how much they have. No cost to use, but you can't have a total cost in ISP or PPE for psionics/spells than you have ISP or PPE. Just an idea.

[Zenvis]

I had to beef on of my players characters (Special Training) with a minor just to balance it out.

[AlanGunhouse]

Both are true you know: Mystic Study and Psionics make up for their limited amount of power by increased versatility...to some extent. There should, however, have a few things they can do without using their personal powers, something to make them more like comic book versions.

I have considered giving Mystic Study Characters a number of Ley Line effects they can do when they are along Ley Lines (where most pure mystic battles occur). That way they can be as impressive as Comic Mages, but only under the right circumstances.

[The Beast]

...How many times in comics do you see psychics and mages run out of energy..

Only when it suits the writer's needs...

[Zenvis]

Perhaps it becomes necessary to triple their PPE and ISP, but it still doesn't help with fighting guys who can stretch and create fireballs with no cost.

[Genhuman]

Perhaps it becomes necessary to triple their PPE and ISP, but it still doesn't help with fighting guys who can stretch and create fireballs with no cost.

And more than 1-3 times per round?

[Regularguy]

When will super powered beings have a mage and psychic as their equal? head to head they are doomed.

I like the option of combining a Major Super Ability with a variety of spells or psionic powers. So it's a hero who can only draw on his grab-bag of mental or mystical effects when he can relax and concentrate or whatever, but who can rely on his signature power even in the crunch -- head to head or otherwise.

(This was, by sheer coincidence, my specific entry for that superhero tournament that never got off the ground last year: a Mystic Bestowed spellcaster who can draw on Charismatic Aura, Cloud Of Smoke, Energy Disruption, Escape, Fly, Invisibility, or See the Invisible at need -- but who can always fall back on his mystical invulnerability and superhuman strength.)

Perhaps it becomes necessary to triple their PPE and ISP, but it still doesn't help with fighting guys who can stretch and create fireballs with no cost.

Again, though, he doesn't need much help if he can fire up Charismatic Aura (or Trance, or Charm, or whatever) at a cheap PPE cost for a shot at insta-incapacitation while drawing on no-cost invulnerability to fireballs and stretchy limbs. Likewise for a guy who, say, draws on Create Force Field or Control Kinetic Energy or something that can pass for a psionic effect -- whenever, y'know, he's not drawing on actual psionic effects to stymie the opposition; as it happens, that's a tailor-made HU psychic build I've also been kicking around for quite a while.

[Zenvis]

We could give them some minors. An example would be flight that Dr. Strange has.

[Regularguy]

We could give them some minors. An example would be flight that Dr. Strange has.

Again, even the major power of Sonic Flight plus spellcasting is already an option for the Mystic Bestowed guy; Wingless Flight plus spellcasting (plus invisibility at will or something) is already an option for Enchanted Object guys, sure as Enchanted Weapon guys have spellcasting-plus-powers options aplenty to boot.

[Zenvis]

The magic object and magic weapon guy in my opinion is more ready for HU2 then mystic study.

[Nightmask]

We could give them some minors. An example would be flight that Dr. Strange has.

Dr Strange's flight comes from his magical artifact the Cloak of Levitation (or a spell when it's not available), he doesn't have any powers inherent to himself other than Immortality (i.e. he does not age naturally and has canonically survived for over a thousand years due to some time travel machinations by the Vishanti, but can still be killed by conventional means). He even notes that the Cloak is helpful as it helps him conserve energy by not having to use personal magicks in order to fly (as personal energy spells do drain the caster and have a limit, draining health from the caster).

In a similar vein you help the caster with some magic items that can substitute for certain common spells so the mage can have them on call rather than having to use personal energy (PPE) to cast.

[Zenvis]

Ok then what needs to be done is an availability of magical artifacts for all practitioners of magic and psionic powers to extend and make them fantastic with each level to compete. I like Dr. Strange and Dr. Fate (DCU). These guys can go head to head with their intelligence, magic objects and special abilities.

[The Baron of chaos]

Well Mage at least can pull PPE form pretty much a lot of sources, and have a ****load of spells they can choose, making them very elastic in use(they are the closer you can get at reality manipulation). Of course they are slightly weaker(slightyl) in HU than Rifts, but this is because in comic book you don't really see many spell casting heroes(most fall into mystical bestowed, in my opinion, and some other had veyr powerfull extra bonuses; Eye of Agamotto wasn't exactly a decorative toy).

Psionic on other hand, well on megaverse they got the shortest POSSIBLE stick. Is like the universe hate the **** out of them. The cannot drain ISP from anything, except in supercharged worlf like Rifts and even then only at ley lines and significantly less from mages, they recover very little compared to the cost of some psionic(the worst offender is Mind Bolt, but Psychic Body Field too is quite expensive.) And after an heavy battle they are kinda "off-game" for DAYS!! PLus some psionic got some crazy limitation(WHY THER EIS NOT TK FLIGHT is somethin that baffle me since I read my first Paladium book..).
Really ISP recovery for psionic need a revision, and not just for Hu but for the entire megaverse!

[Mercdog]

Ok then what needs to be done is an availability of magical artifacts for all practitioners of magic and psionic powers to extend and make them fantastic with each level to compete. I like Dr. Strange and Dr. Fate (DCU). These guys can go head to head with their intelligence, magic objects and special abilities.

This is an excellent excuse to create adventures that have the magic user go looking for magical items, or to confiscate said items from villains for safekeeping. Just the kind of thing a wizard might require some associates with special abilities to accomplish.

[Zenvis]

Well Mage at least can pull PPE form pretty much a lot of sources, and have a ****load of spells they can choose, making them very elastic in use(they are the closer you can get at reality manipulation). Of course they are slightly weaker(slightyl) in HU than Rifts, but this is because in comic book you don't really see many spell casting heroes(most fall into mystical bestowed, in my opinion, and some other had veyr powerfull extra bonuses; Eye of Agamotto wasn't exactly a decorative toy).

Psionic on other hand, well on megaverse they got the shortest POSSIBLE stick. Is like the universe hate the **** out of them. The cannot drain ISP from anything, except in supercharged worlf like Rifts and even then only at ley lines and significantly less from mages, they recover very little compared to the cost of some psionic(the worst offender is Mind Bolt, but Psychic Body Field too is quite expensive.) And after an heavy battle they are kinda "off-game" for DAYS!! PLus some psionic got some crazy limitation(WHY THER EIS NOT TK FLIGHT is somethin that baffle me since I read my first Paladium book..).
Really ISP recovery for psionic need a revision, and not just for Hu but for the entire megaverse!

Dont you want to give them the green lantern situation without the ring? I sure do.

[bathawk]

I don't "quite" understandthe OP....are you saying that all classess should be relatively equal in a fight? After all has anybody really complained that the stage magicial special training can't stand up to to a demigod class?

yes psionics and mages are limited by thier "energy pools"...but the reason they are limited is because they have more options...a 1st level mage has24 spells plus astral projection...a super being has...one major power and a couple of minor ones?

in addition normal super gte increase damage, range, and area of effects to thier powers, but rarely new abilities, psionics and mages do gain new powers/spells as they advance, in addition to more ISP/PPE

my main concern is "energy pools" do a fine job of limiting thier power.....being able to only cast 2 spells per round though is,admittedly, a bit much

[The Baron of chaos]

I don't "quite" understandthe OP....are you saying that all classess should be relatively equal in a fight? After all has anybody really complained that the stage magicial special training can't stand up to to a demigod class?

yes psionics and mages are limited by thier "energy pools"...but the reason they are limited is because they have more options...a 1st level mage has24 spells plus astral projection...a super being has...one major power and a couple of minor ones?

in addition normal super gte increase damage, range, and area of effects to thier powers, but rarely new abilities, psionics and mages do gain new powers/spells as they advance, in addition to more ISP/PPE

my main concern is "energy pools" do a fine job of limiting thier power.....being able to only cast 2 spells per round though is,admittedly, a bit much

Dont you want to give them the green lantern situation without the ring? I sure do.

If there is something I like of this discussion is how it , wrongly, put Spellcasdters and Psionics on same table.
They are not.
Sure both have a pool of energy that APPARENTLY limit their powers.
Apparently.
But one had to remeber that: is damn easy is for a Spellcaster channel PPE, just make a walk in a crowd an get little bit of PPE here and there, for some place with larger PPE, make a trip to Slaughterhouse, the tripled PPe of animals will fill you quickly, or hospitals, but is less easy getting around dying people and little bit creepy, or if your of little morals, just set an orphanage on fire or start making animal sacrifices(Spellcasting is a hard job for vegetarians) if we want to avoid outright homicide. And this not counting ley lines, nexuses, Solstices, place of magical power, and the fact that is possibble to store PPE and spells in stuff, like amulets and scrolls.
Psionic on other hand....recover at the very best 12 ISP per hour of meditation, and that's all. Can't store it. can't drain people of their ISP(except Mind Bleeder), and even if RUE allowed them to get a little bit extra ISP at ley lines is ridiculous compared the CRAZY cost of SuperPsionics and their limits compared to high level spells.(apart telekinesis and biomanipulation, most superpsionics are quite....meh). The only good thing about psionics is that they can be combined (if GM allow it), and some can simulate perfectly some powers(as above if GM allow it, since no official rule exist), also most psionics have reasonable duration. But the ISP recovering problem remain. As well as the cos tof some powers tha tis...puzzling(30 ISP for 10 SDC per level, no natural AR, no sense of touch, even at 5th level would be expensive and quite not worth, better pump it into Summon inner strenght, few realize that that psionic is cumulative and can be pumped as much as you want...for 40 ISP you can have 100 SDC , +20% vs poison/toxins, +50% vs. coma/death and keep your sense of touch)

[AlanGunhouse]

Personally I prefer doing something similar to a Line Walker...having a number of abilities that can draw from "outside mystic energies". The trick is that <ages tend to fight in magically potent areas, thus giving an illusion of greater powers than they really have.

[Sureshot]

Baron while going to a slaughterhouse is a good idea how often will a character be close to one all the time. Plus imo kind of weird for a superheor to be seen in full cosutme walking through a slaughterhosue when it's open and kind of illegal to be in one when it's closed. Unless your playing at most an Anarchist or Abeerant character your character is not going to be going to a hospital to drain PPE. Maybe a villian not imo a superhero. Amulets and scrolls are a much better alternative yet even then why should the mage be hampered to have to lug around amulets and scrolls when the superhero can use his ability all day long.

Mind you on psionics you and I are pretty much in agreement on almost all points. I understand they wanted to keep the system the same as possible for all their rpgs. Yet imo the should have kept the orignal system then added modifcations ot fit the genre of the rpg. Regular psionics in Palladium fnatasy work perfectly outside of places in HU and Rifts Earth not as much imo.

[Nightmask]

Baron while going to a slaughterhouse is a good idea how often will a character be close to one all the time. Plus imo kind of weird for a superheor to be seen in full cosutme walking through a slaughterhosue when it's open and kind of illegal to be in one when it's closed. Unless your playing at most an Anarchist or Abeerant character your character is not going to be going to a hospital to drain PPE. Maybe a villian not imo a superhero. Amulets and scrolls are a much better alternative yet even then why should the mage be hampered to have to lug around amulets and scrolls when the superhero can use his ability all day long.

Mind you on psionics you and I are pretty much in agreement on almost all points. I understand they wanted to keep the system the same as possible for all their rpgs. Yet imo the should have kept the orignal system then added modifcations ot fit the genre of the rpg. Regular psionics in Palladium fnatasy work perfectly outside of places in HU and Rifts Earth not as much imo.

One could always be for their background a plant worker, plant inspector, etc. who can simply be expected to be around the place close enough to absorb all that PPE (although I'd always thought the PPE for killing things required you to kill it yourself and had to be used immediately rather than to simply recharge one's reserves or overcharge with). Have a job position that lets you get around with the old 'random inspection!' badge routine could easily give the character access to such things easily.

[AlanGunhouse]

Generally correct, except for a few classes, PPE from deaths has to be used immediately

[The Baron of chaos]

Generally correct, except for a few classes, PPE from deaths has to be used immediately

Hmm no i think you're confusing with PPE from Ley Lines, Nexus points and such. there yoooooooooharness a lot of extra PPE for casting the most heavy rituals.
PPE from Living, can be used to reload ones own "battery", also you do not have to hang aroudn unpleasant places, albeit that would help, you can drain PPE by pretty much anyone except the obviously unwilling(as someone who is fightin you or hate you) and other mages. The best are willing donors. but a mage cna litterlly pump out PPE by an area of 10 ft radius per level aorund him. Sure some can save vs. but most will fail and you got PPE.

why should the mage be hampered to have to lug around amulets and scrolls when the superhero can use his ability all day long.

Actually most mages , at least those we know form fiction, comics and such, CARRY a lot of magical paraphernalia with them.
In fact amuless cna be anything, and most mages, like to wear them like they were mr. T gold chains!. Rings, belts, and such.
On staple of moder magic in megavers is tha tyou can uploda scrolls on any machines, from e-book reader to tablet. Hell in today words a smartphone is enough to carry on scrolls(and being an amulet as well. The base of future Technowizardry)

In Fiction mages ar ekinda weird in that their power are never very well defined(essentially their knowledge of spells is dependent on what a wirter want the character to do), and often they fall in multiple categories(spellcasters, mystical bestowed by powers that be and often with uberpowerfull magic objects backing his rear....fit more than one comic book mages). So is unlikely one can make a good version of them.
Psionic is even worst as they are not see any different than any superpowers, and in fact there are theories about the nature of superpowers in a given universe, that assume they are all, on some level, psychic based, with psychic simply being under control of consciouos will.
Pure psionic are quite a problem, falling in same line as hackers, in that their powers work better as solo, as they cannot truly share it with teammates and do not translate well graphically, in novels is better, but remain the fact that are invisibles powers that somehow "isolate" the characters from the rest of the world when in use, mostly.
For Megaverse Psionic things work differently, as I already wrote, with individual specific PCC faring better than other(Astral Lord, as example or Dream Dancers, my favored PCCs ever!!)