Rifter #36 Madhaven supplements....

[keir451]

Got my hands on the Rifter that has the "treasure" for Madhaven aaannnndddd less impressive than I'd hoped.
The stuff I don't agree w/are things like discs of music or such things, if NY is supposed to be the epitome of Golden Age tech when power armor and cybernetics are prevalent why, oh why are they still using CD's? Shouldn't there have been something cooler like holographic matrix crystals that can hold terabytes of info?
It is also very unlikely that ANY books have survived nearly 300 yrs of sitting in the ruins of NY, unless someone took the time to put them in a vacuum sealed container. They would have rotted away long ago.
Jewelry I can see, but finding it amongst all the scrap in Madhaven would take weeks (upon weeks) of sifting thru the debris, "Everyone roll your save vs insanity while being attacked by Madhaven mutants."
I especially like this one; GM: "You've found ... a parking meter? ", 1,100 MDC mutant appears and rips parking meter out of the ground and beats your party to death w/ it. Congratulations you've found "treasure".
ANY medicine (barring RMK or IRMSS kits) would be long since expired even if sealed in an airtight container.
NEMA equipment or a NEMA bunker is slightly more plausable, but still unlikely, at least not in the city proper.
More likely NEMA maintained a facility on the main land near the outskirts of the city, you'd more likely find police gear like body armor and weapons but not military or NEMA as they would have had no time to react.
I also looked over the new "Excavator O.C.C."- (yawn) Not another unneeded O.C.C., the Legacy Scout from Dino Swamps was better and ANY chara w/ engineering skills or mining skills or Anthroplogy & Archaeology can do better.
You call this a supplement? The treasure is pathetic and, w/the exception of possibly finding NEMA gear or the Naruni stash (shyeah right, good luck w/ THAT), generally not worth the risk.

[Crucible]

Honestly I was underwhelmed by Madhaven. I did like the White Rose, but thats about it.

[Bood Samel]

Honestly I was underwhelmed by Madhaven. I did like the White Rose, but thats about it.

Ha, the white rose is my only complaint. I like the treasure charts, but I would make up my own loot, but its good in a pinch. The excavators not too bad, but maybe it could have been approached as how to customize and operator towards those ends?

I don't use too many random dice charts anyway. I plan every non-spontaneous encounter with aesthetics and theatrics in mind.

[jaymz]

The treasure chart like all other random charts is just that. Random. It works for what it is. Most GM's I know and myself as well rarely use random charts and plan out what may or may not be found.

Music Discs? Yes possible. Unless they sepcify compact discs the discs could be anything. They use them for the video recorders in other books etc. Maybe instead of 800mb it hold multiple tb's? Books? Yes they can theoretically survive if buried and considering hte massive lad upheval an entire library could have been buried.

[keir451]

The treasure chart like all other random charts is just that. Random. It works for what it is. Most GM's I know and myself as well rarely use random charts and plan out what may or may not be found.

Music Discs? Yes possible. Unless they sepcify compact discs the discs could be anything. They use them for the video recorders in other books etc. Maybe instead of 800mb it hold multiple tb's? Books? Yes they can theoretically survive if buried and considering hte massive lad upheval an entire library could have been buried.

I've no doubt that discs could survive, I simply question the idea of "discs" as an information storage device by the time of 2098. Going by what has been said about the technological boom that preceded the coming of the Rifts I would have opted for a more advanced type of technology like the holographic crystal matrices I mentioned. Even KS has suggested that (in regards to computer tchenology) we just extrapolate on our own where computer technology has gone. Following that bit of advice I would have expected the authors to do just that, throw in technology that truly represents the "Golden Age". Discs, by the time of 2098, would be akin to cassette tapes or reel to reel sytems; an out dated and out moded means of media storage.

[jaymz]

The treasure chart like all other random charts is just that. Random. It works for what it is. Most GM's I know and myself as well rarely use random charts and plan out what may or may not be found.

Music Discs? Yes possible. Unless they sepcify compact discs the discs could be anything. They use them for the video recorders in other books etc. Maybe instead of 800mb it hold multiple tb's? Books? Yes they can theoretically survive if buried and considering hte massive lad upheval an entire library could have been buried.

I've no doubt that discs could survive, I simply question the idea of "discs" as an information storage device by the time of 2098. Going by what has been said about the technological boom that preceded the coming of the Rifts I would have opted for a more advanced type of technology like the holographic crystal matrices I mentioned. Even KS has suggested that (in regards to computer tchenology) we just extrapolate on our own where computer technology has gone. Following that bit of advice I would have expected the authors to do just that, throw in technology that truly represents the "Golden Age". Discs, by the time of 2098, would be akin to cassette tapes or reel to reel sytems; an out dated and out moded means of media storage.

What if the holographic crystal matrix is just formed into a disc like shape?

[keir451]

The treasure chart like all other random charts is just that. Random. It works for what it is. Most GM's I know and myself as well rarely use random charts and plan out what may or may not be found.

Music Discs? Yes possible. Unless they sepcify compact discs the discs could be anything. They use them for the video recorders in other books etc. Maybe instead of 800mb it hold multiple tb's? Books? Yes they can theoretically survive if buried and considering hte massive lad upheval an entire library could have been buried.

I've no doubt that discs could survive, I simply question the idea of "discs" as an information storage device by the time of 2098. Going by what has been said about the technological boom that preceded the coming of the Rifts I would have opted for a more advanced type of technology like the holographic crystal matrices I mentioned. Even KS has suggested that (in regards to computer tchenology) we just extrapolate on our own where computer technology has gone. Following that bit of advice I would have expected the authors to do just that, throw in technology that truly represents the "Golden Age". Discs, by the time of 2098, would be akin to cassette tapes or reel to reel sytems; an out dated and out moded means of media storage.

What if the holographic crystal matrix is just formed into a disc like shape?

Interesting thought, I'll consider that.
I was originally thinking of a crystal about the size of a mans thumb or so. The matrix can be inscribed into the crystal lattice and read via a specially tuned laser (quantum tuned laser perhaps) with the info projected hologhraphically.

[jaymz]

The treasure chart like all other random charts is just that. Random. It works for what it is. Most GM's I know and myself as well rarely use random charts and plan out what may or may not be found.

Music Discs? Yes possible. Unless they sepcify compact discs the discs could be anything. They use them for the video recorders in other books etc. Maybe instead of 800mb it hold multiple tb's? Books? Yes they can theoretically survive if buried and considering hte massive lad upheval an entire library could have been buried.

I've no doubt that discs could survive, I simply question the idea of "discs" as an information storage device by the time of 2098. Going by what has been said about the technological boom that preceded the coming of the Rifts I would have opted for a more advanced type of technology like the holographic crystal matrices I mentioned. Even KS has suggested that (in regards to computer tchenology) we just extrapolate on our own where computer technology has gone. Following that bit of advice I would have expected the authors to do just that, throw in technology that truly represents the "Golden Age". Discs, by the time of 2098, would be akin to cassette tapes or reel to reel sytems; an out dated and out moded means of media storage.

What if the holographic crystal matrix is just formed into a disc like shape?

Interesting thought, I'll consider that.
I was originally thinking of a crystal about the size of a mans thumb or so. The matrix can be inscribed into the crystal lattice and read via a specially tuned laser (quantum tuned laser perhaps) with the info projected hologhraphically.

So teh size of a normal flash drive....

[keir451]

jaymz wrote:

So teh size of a normal flash drive

Yeah about that size in length but also the width of the thumb as well, I got the idea from one of the recent Battle Angel Alita: Last Order series of manga.

[keir451]

There was another thing that was totally unbelievable; the idea that the command codes for the orbital weapon systems would be found on any hard copy media that Pecos Raiders could literally stumble across.
Yeah I can just go ahead and effectively say "April Fools" to my players, but 1) that kind of info is SO restricted not even the President would have access to it and 2) most (90% or more) of my players would never believe it.

[dark brandon]

Got my hands on the Rifter that has the "treasure" for Madhaven aaannnndddd less impressive than I'd hoped.

I'm sorry you didn't like it, honestly.

The stuff I don't agree w/are things like discs of music or such things, if NY is supposed to be the epitome of Golden Age tech when power armor and cybernetics are prevalent why, oh why are they still using CD's? Shouldn't there have been something cooler like holographic matrix crystals that can hold terabytes of info?

Perhaps, but I only recall seeing something like this in a science book I read years and years ago. I am a pretty tech savy guy, at least so much in that I read Scientific america and Discovery. In that, anything beyond "CD" for your typical writer isn't going to be common knowledge. Despite that, Rifts canon takes president over Real world, and it's already been established via canon that CD's were still in use.

It is also very unlikely that ANY books have survived nearly 300 yrs of sitting in the ruins of NY, unless someone took the time to put them in a vacuum sealed container. They would have rotted away long ago.

Possibly, but there is a strong movement even today to try and get many books to be made of material more durable than the paper we use, simply because this is currently a problem (old books rotting away). It's not too hard to think that if it kinda mirrors our world, they'd have the same problem and would have taken steps to prevent this.

Jewelry I can see, but finding it amongst all the scrap in Madhaven would take weeks (upon weeks) of sifting thru the debris, "Everyone roll your save vs insanity while being attacked by Madhaven mutants."

That would be if you're looking specifically for jewelry, which is instant gain. But, lets take that you find a CD. You find a copy of Michael Jacksons "thriller". To a collector of pop music of that time, it could be worth good money. A few hundred credits, but there is more you can do with it. For example, taking it to Lazlo you could use it on a small group of musicians to copy the music and style. It may catch on, and how you've got a huge money maker and the stuff they are using is old/recycled. Further on, you can take it and begin to burn copies and sell it to the masses. The same could be done with any book you find, even movies. "See now the movie that changed a generation in the golden age...Toy Story 12!" or sell it to a movie maker and there you go.

You find an old copy of Dead Kennedys (an old punk band). It may not catch on to the masses, but you know this stuff would be eaten up by Juicers and crazies. Instant money maker to the right buyer or a promising entrepreneur.

It's important to realize there are no "copyright" laws in Rifts earth, so any media you find is pretty much up for grabs.

ANY medicine (barring RMK or IRMSS kits) would be long since expired even if sealed in an airtight container.

You could sell it to a pharmaceutical company in rifts and they could try and reverse engineer the chemicals in it to reproduce it. Even the CS would be interested in something like this.

Scrap MDC metal itself is worth a boat load. I forget exactly, but something like to repair 1 MDC to any vehicle is like 1,000 Credits. So, you figure if you can bring in "1 MDC" worth of scrap metal, you probably just bagged 200 credits (maybe more maybe less, depending on who you're selling it to).

The thing to remember is that the random list is just that, random. If your running in an adventure or running an adventure, there is more than likely a goal to hit. For example: An excavator is running to and from madhaven because he believes there is an old NYPD weapon house that should be untouched. He knows where it is, but it's buried. He hires the PC's for protection and to help clear rubble. They get what they want, but he gets the store-house. So they bring in their mountaineer, and begin to clear away MDC cement, any MDC metal they find they throw in the back of the mountaineer and any other things they find as well. Now, assuming a good day (no ghosts mess with them, mutants stay clear), it's not hard to imagine they come back with something like 10,000 credits worth of metal, and various other nicknacks that can be used to make even more money.

excavation isn't going to be an instant reward thing (usually), but played right, it's not hard to come out of madhaven rich and psychosis free.

[keir451]

Hey Brandon, It's Ok, I realize what you were trying to accomplish and you did do an excellent job, I just was expecting something different. Something that really represeted the feel of the "Golden Age" of technology.

Re CD's/information tech: I realize per "canon" (God's is that a stupid word, it's "official" not "canon") that disks are supposedly still extant, but KS didn't really expect some of the technological leaps we've made since he started Rifts,(like the fact that disk technology is already being replaced) thus his recent "hands off" approach to computer tech.
Remember in the Old Rifts Sourcebook One how the PC-2020 field identifier unit had a "dual drive system w/150 megabyte hard drive with 4 megabyte of RAM. Uses one inch disks."? That was published in in 1992. My laptop(bought 2yrs ago and is already outdated) has a hard drive of 232 GIGABYTES, heck you can get sytems capable of 300 terabytes if you've got the money.
Just take those standards and apply an obscene exponent to them for "future tech" (like to the tenth power or so). Don't limit yourself to what Kevin has written if you're going to write a world book. Especially because once you get it published it now becomes official and can supercede anything writen before.
Also the official life span estimate for information technology is +/-10 yrs, so approx. every 10 yrs the technology changes. By 2098 we'll be in "Back to the Future 3" mode, walk into a store and see a CD Player "Oh how quaint, and antique CD player!" Heck we're there already.

Re Books: You've kinda made my point from above "If it kinda mirrors this world", if Rifts "kinda mirrors this world" (as I keep using for examples, yet everyone ignores it and cries "canon" and covers their ears ) then reasonably speaking we'll have civilian computer systems equivalent to Archie 3 (minus the ability for original thought). Nonetheless, unless the books were in a enviromentally sealed container (or made of MD materials) they'd still be a mass of goo by 109 PA due to the fact that they were under water for who knows how long

"sometime during the Dark Age, some force raised the submerged island and slammed it into the coast".

Just about any non metallic, non MDC item is going to be goo after that long.

I do alot of "treasure finding" in my games, I had a player who's chara. found a semi intact Discovery store and Sears store in a mall, he found a set of Craftsman wrenches and holocrystals on world history in the Discovery store that had been overlooked.
So I see where you're coming from and I've done it, I'm not disagreeing w/ that aspect. I disagree w/ the anachronistic/contradictory examples of tech (CDs, and the like).

Re Medicine: Sorry Brandon but I work in the medical field and my roommate has a Masters in Geo-Chem, we both agree (professionaly speaking) that even sealed medicine would have decayed to the point of being unrecoverable after 300 yrs. There's simply no way (besides GM fiat) that any adventurer could find intact medicines to be reproduced and while you could read the ingredients off the label (providing there is one) you wouldn't know the right QUANTITIES to make it properly.
The CS actually wouldn't care, they have access to the TexAm complex, plus a trade agreement w/Triax, next to Triax they have literally every type of medicine known to man and are probably on the forefront of researching it too.

Yeah the tables are random, that wasn't an issue. The issue was strictly what was and wasn't present on some of the tables.
My advice (for what it's worth) is to seriously think outside the "box" of what KS has written.
I also realize that no matter what you do there will be detractors (don't let that stop you ) but don't limit yourself to what's "current" either. If you do then you are doing yourself (as well as your audience) as disservice.

[The Galactus Kid]

Note: dark Brandon is not Brandon Aten.

[Spinachcat]

This is why Shadowrun puts out new editions every few years. Cyberpunk became retropunk. Any scifi RPG is going to suffer from techno-flaws after a decade.

So GMs have to make the choice: upgrade the tech or find interesting ways to explain why the tech in the setting exists the way that it does.

I see no reason why sealed medicines made in 2098 could not be found intact in 300 years. Why? Apparently in the Rifts Universe (which is not our universe), their sealant and medical technology are so awesome that they stay fresh for 300 years.

As for CDs, I go with the lack of internet freedom. If the web were to be fully corporate controlled and fully government monitored, then perhaps if you wanted to have private data, you would have to do it via hard copy...ala CD.

As for books, I see no reason for their existence in 2098...but clearly in the Rifts Universe they are all over the place...and not really made of paper since they are found intact in 300 years. So therefore, we must ask why?

Perhaps there was a mega-web crash in the mid-21st century? Perhaps everything stored in the cloud computers came crashing to zero. Maybe ever itty bit and byte was lost and we had to start from scratch. In fear of that happening again, perhaps there was a movement to create very hardy printed material....the new books.

[dark brandon]

Re CD's/information tech: I realize per "canon" (God's is that a stupid word, it's "official" not "canon") that disks are supposedly still extant, but KS didn't really expect some of the technological leaps we've made since he started Rifts,(like the fact that disk technology is already being replaced) thus his recent "hands off" approach to computer tech.
Remember in the Old Rifts Sourcebook One how the PC-2020 field identifier unit had a "dual drive system w/150 megabyte hard drive with 4 megabyte of RAM. Uses one inch disks."? That was published in in 1992. My laptop(bought 2yrs ago and is already outdated) has a hard drive of 232 GIGABYTES, heck you can get sytems capable of 300 terabytes if you've got the money.
Just take those standards and apply an obscene exponent to them for "future tech" (like to the tenth power or so). Don't limit yourself to what Kevin has written if you're going to write a world book. Especially because once you get it published it now becomes official and can supercede anything writen before.
Also the official life span estimate for information technology is +/-10 yrs, so approx. every 10 yrs the technology changes. By 2098 we'll be in "Back to the Future 3" mode, walk into a store and see a CD Player "Oh how quaint, and antique CD player!" Heck we're there already.

I don't take "CD" personally to mean specifically CD's...for example, Blue-ray is sometimes refered to as "disk". So, I like to think of it as just 'street-slang' for whatever "disk" is high tech or would be high tech at the time.

Re Books: You've kinda made my point from above "If it kinda mirrors this world", if Rifts "kinda mirrors this world" (as I keep using for examples, yet everyone ignores it and cries "canon" and covers their ears ) then reasonably speaking we'll have civilian computer systems equivalent to Archie 3 (minus the ability for original thought). Nonetheless, unless the books were in a enviromentally sealed container (or made of MD materials) they'd still be a mass of goo by 109 PA due to the fact that they were under water for who knows how long

"sometime during the Dark Age, some force raised the submerged island and slammed it into the coast".

Just about any non metallic, non MDC item is going to be goo after that long.

It would, but you would probably find enough books that were sealed in containers (such as people who were in the process of moving, having items in a container that never got unpacked)...Books that would have been in the back of maybe some MDC cars/vehicles. Are they water-proof? Maybe maybe not. It's not out of the realm of unimaginable that the cars in the golden age had trunks that were water tight. This is just a single example of it's probably luck that kept the books in tact.

Re Medicine: Sorry Brandon but I work in the medical field and my roommate has a Masters in Geo-Chem, we both agree (professionaly speaking) that even sealed medicine would have decayed to the point of being unrecoverable after 300 yrs. There's simply no way (besides GM fiat) that any adventurer could find intact medicines to be reproduced and while you could read the ingredients off the label (providing there is one) you wouldn't know the right QUANTITIES to make it properly.
The CS actually wouldn't care, they have access to the TexAm complex, plus a trade agreement w/Triax, next to Triax they have literally every type of medicine known to man and are probably on the forefront of researching it too.

They may not know specific quantities, but that doesn't mean the information would be useless. Even triax and CS (while having great technologies) are not as far along as it was during the golden age. I also believe there's a way to carbon date things or to some effect like that. Just for example, I watched a show on history channel where they were able to figure out what was in an ancient jar by doing something to this effect (I'm not sure if they used radio-carbon dating or just a spectral analysis or what). While I don't remember the details, I do know it has been done today.

[dark brandon]

As for books, I see no reason for their existence in 2098...but clearly in the Rifts Universe they are all over the place...and not really made of paper since they are found intact in 300 years. So therefore, we must ask why?

Strangely enough, i'm in the camp that believes books will never go away. Even with e-readers and the like. I own and e-reader and several books, and you know, Ereaders are great for traveling and the like, but I find I prefer to read from a book. In the end it may only be asethetic qualities that keep books around, but I don't think they'd ever actually go away. If you need a reason to keep them around, I'd simply chalk it up to a resurgence of books making a come-back. In an age of enlightenment, people find it very "stylish" to own books. Nothing says "i'm a douche...er...I'm a smart guy of the modern age" than walking into his house and seeing his collection of books on his shelf.

[keir451]

I'll grant that some books may have survived, just the ones on Manhattan Island weren't likely to, not after being submerged for who know how long. Some of the vehicles may indeed have been (pastr tense) water tight, but not after sitting on the bootom of Long Islanf sound for more than a decade (y'know unless they were MDC).
The description for what happened to NY/Manhattan states "they didn't know what hit them", they were not prepared for it. So unless someone buried books in a sealed container (next to impossible to do considering how buitl up those areas are/will be) before hand, I don't see them surving the effects of the water.
Granted the Golden Age apparently saw a lot of advances, but medicines are still made from chemicals and eventually break down and expire.
So any medicine not inside a sort of "stasis field" will be junk, it would take the CS (or any one else of equal or greater tech level) months if not years to reproduce any of the medicines found (if they could at all). They could determine thru various means what some of the chemicals were but the problem comes in reproducing the EXACT quantity of EACH individual chemical because if you don't get it right you might just wind up making a poison instead of a medicine.
I agree that books will likely never go away.
Taking "disks" as a catch all term for whatever form of media storage? OK I'll go with it, kinda like Star Treks isolinear "chips".

[dark brandon]

The description for what happened to NY/Manhattan states "they didn't know what hit them", they were not prepared for it. So unless someone buried books in a sealed container (next to impossible to do considering how buitl up those areas are/will be) before hand, I don't see them surving the effects of the water.

Yeah, that's why i would think books would be rare in madhaven, but not lost.

Granted the Golden Age apparently saw a lot of advances, but medicines are still made from chemicals and eventually break down and expire.
So any medicine not inside a sort of "stasis field" will be junk, it would take the CS (or any one else of equal or greater tech level) months if not years to reproduce any of the medicines found (if they could at all). They could determine thru various means what some of the chemicals were but the problem comes in reproducing the EXACT quantity of EACH individual chemical because if you don't get it right you might just wind up making a poison instead of a medicine.

True, but the chemical medicine would still be worth it. If it's a type of medicine they don't have which could be possible, it would be worth it for them to get the chemical mix and try to replicate it. This may not be quite as important in CS as it is to other nations though, honestly. IE: CS makes talking dogs...I doubt there's that much about the genome they can't figure out to produce medicines for it.

[sHaka]

Generally disagree with most of the OP - I like MadHaven and the supplemental material from the Rifter, but each to their own.

However, where you say....

I especially like this one; GM: "You've found ... a parking meter? ", 1,100 MDC mutant appears and rips parking meter out of the ground and beats your party to death w/ it. Congratulations you've found "treasure".

....I wonder what your consider "treasure" to be? Did you know that there's a massive black market in Pre-Rifts items, collectors paying thousands of creds for even mundane items?

[rat_bastard]

Give books a little credit,

there are 4 surviving copies of the Magna Carta, books can survive allot if they are made of the proper materials. Most buildings at the time of rifts where MDC which means there are allot of hermetically sealed rooms that are not letting anything in come apocalypse time.

[Bood Samel]

Don't forget that the pre-rifts buildings were massive cyberpunk arcologies with many levels underground. Lower level parking garages could easily still be sitting there with all the stuff people kept in their hover cars, plus whatever the valet parking guys or security guards kept in their booth to pass the time.

Also plenty of pockets of these building could have never gooten wet, and many of them could be sitting there intact buried undearneath the dirt and rubble.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

I'll grant that some books may have survived, just the ones on Manhattan Island weren't likely to, not after being submerged for who know how long. Some of the vehicles may indeed have been (pastr tense) water tight, but not after sitting on the bootom of Long Islanf sound for more than a decade (y'know unless they were MDC).

Manhattan is not underwater, it was thrust upward by the tectonic activity during the Coming of the Rifts. It is now a tiny peninsula of what was once New York State.

Also, Manhattan wouldn't be on the bottom of Long Island Sound even if it sank, it would be beneath an estuary formed by the converging of the East River and Hudson River.

~ Josh

[The Galactus Kid]

I'll grant that some books may have survived, just the ones on Manhattan Island weren't likely to, not after being submerged for who know how long. Some of the vehicles may indeed have been (pastr tense) water tight, but not after sitting on the bootom of Long Islanf sound for more than a decade (y'know unless they were MDC).

Manhattan is not underwater, it was thrust upward by the tectonic activity during the Coming of the Rifts. It is now a tiny peninsula of what was once New York State.

Also, Manhattan wouldn't be on the bottom of Long Island Sound even if it sank, it would be beneath an estuary formed by the converging of the East River and Hudson River.

~ Josh

NEEEEEEERRRRRRD!!!!!!!

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

I'll grant that some books may have survived, just the ones on Manhattan Island weren't likely to, not after being submerged for who know how long. Some of the vehicles may indeed have been (pastr tense) water tight, but not after sitting on the bootom of Long Islanf sound for more than a decade (y'know unless they were MDC).

Manhattan is not underwater, it was thrust upward by the tectonic activity during the Coming of the Rifts. It is now a tiny peninsula of what was once New York State.

Also, Manhattan wouldn't be on the bottom of Long Island Sound even if it sank, it would be beneath an estuary formed by the converging of the East River and Hudson River.

~ Josh

NEEEEEEERRRRRRD!!!!!!!

~ Josh

[keir451]

I'll grant that some books may have survived, just the ones on Manhattan Island weren't likely to, not after being submerged for who know how long. Some of the vehicles may indeed have been (past tense) water tight, but not after sitting on the bottom of Long Islanf sound for more than a decade (y'know unless they were MDC).

Manhattan is not underwater, it was thrust upward by the tectonic activity during the Coming of the Rifts. It is now a tiny peninsula of what was once New York State.

Also, Manhattan wouldn't be on the bottom of Long Island Sound even if it sank, it would be beneath an estuary formed by the converging of the East River and Hudson River.

~ Josh

Hey Josh, Loved your article in the same Rifter, but Check your RUE again IT clearly states (on pg. 41 and according to half the people here anyhting in the RUE takes precedent over any other world book) that the Island was submerged. The land Manhattan sits on also abuts the western end of Long Island sound, so it would be under the waters of both the estuary and Long island sound.
@ Bood Samel; Valid points for the most part, I disagree over the parking booths, but Yes there could be pockets that were untouched even tho' most of the descriptions say either that Manhattan was submerged or (at least) that all the building and people were wiped out when the Apocalypse struck.
@rat_bastard; I give books a lot of credit, but even the 4 copies of the magna carta would be goop after being submerged for any extended period of time. Again IF these books were kept in a enclosed, enviromentally sealed (by any means or circumstances) location then yes they could survive, and Yes if they were made of some weather resistant material too. But over all the vast majority of books that were not protected would be destroyed.
As for what I consider treasure... Yeah a parking meter could be considered treasure (I remember a Sliders episode similar to this), but you'd have to come out of Madhaven w/ a lot of parking meters, etc. to pay for the repairs that one (or more) 1,100 MD mutant could inflict (going by the regular repair prices) and to get that much material you'd need to spend way too much time in Madhaven thus exposing yourself to the effects tof the Psychic Scar.
I can play a Rogue Scholar/Scientist w/ the best of them, but what's the point if I'm going to be railroaded (as some suggested) into going into a place such as Madhaven, I'd have a better chance of surviving the Splynn Dimensional Market or Mexico than I would Madhaven, even if I took my time and prepped before hand they are still MORE mutants than the people helping me, and if I leave my dig to escape the effects of the Psychic emanations the enviroment and the mutants would destroy anything I left behind.

[The Galactus Kid]

Madhaven is later than R;UE. The newer books trump the older ones. There may be sections of "Madhaven" that are submerged but Madhaven tells the full story of the tectonic upheaval.

Speaking of which, my heart goes out to all those affected by the quake and tsunami in Japan.

[keir451]

Madhaven is later than R;UE. The newer books trump the older ones. There may be sections of "Madhaven" that are submerged but Madhaven tells the full story of the tectonic upheaval.

Speaking of which, my heart goes out to all those affected by the quake and tsunami in Japan.

Agreed w/ the bold.
I'm going by both books, the RUE says that Manhattan WAS submerged then (somehow either natural plate tectonics or someother elemental force) was raised up. Madhaven says that an initial tsunami 300ft high going at 500mph slammed into Long Island, Long Island sound, NY and Manhattan,(this would indeed kill just about anything living as Long Island itself would have been destroyed upon wave impact) then the area of Manhattan and the western edge of Long Island were thrust 1,000 ft into the air and then dropped 500 ft. Even buildings of Megacrete were destroyed.
The sheer force of the water involved means that even MD vehicles and buildings were destroyed and the subsequent amount of water (from the following waves) flooded everything else. Also as water tends to flow towards the lowest point it would have (over the centuries) seeped into just about every open space there was thru all manner of nooks and crannies.
I respect their efforts, I just don't agree w/much of the content. For any gamer, playing an RPG means being able to suspend your disbelief. If you can't suspend your disbelief then the game or setting becomes unenjoyable. Madhaven defies all reasonable disbelief and puts forth a setting that is untenable even by "normal" Rifts standards.

[keir451]

For any gamer, playing an RPG means being able to suspend your disbelief. If you can't suspend your disbelief then the game or setting becomes unenjoyable. Madhaven defies all reasonable disbelief and puts forth a setting that is untenable even by "normal" Rifts standards.

Seriously?

If you say so, but I categorically disagree.

On which points/categories? Please specify.

[keir451]

For any gamer, playing an RPG means being able to suspend your disbelief. If you can't suspend your disbelief then the game or setting becomes unenjoyable. Madhaven defies all reasonable disbelief and puts forth a setting that is untenable even by "normal" Rifts standards.

Seriously?

If you say so, but I categorically disagree.

On which points/categories? Please specify.

Madhaven defies all reasonable disbelief and puts forth a setting that is untenable even by "normal" Rifts standards.

This.

But hey, no skin off my teeth.

'Sokay, I freely admit that it is my personal opinion and prejudice towards the "equal opportunity mindf**ck", as one person described it, that really drives me berserk (as it were). If it weren't for that I could get around the, what are to me, "inconsistancies" in Madhaven.

[jaymz]

Madhaven is later than R;UE. The newer books trump the older ones. There may be sections of "Madhaven" that are submerged but Madhaven tells the full story of the tectonic upheaval.

Speaking of which, my heart goes out to all those affected by the quake and tsunami in Japan.

Agreed w/ the bold.
I'm going by both books, the RUE says that Manhattan WAS submerged then (somehow either natural plate tectonics or someother elemental force) was raised up. Madhaven says that an initial tsunami 300ft high going at 500mph slammed into Long Island, Long Island sound, NY and Manhattan,(this would indeed kill just about anything living as Long Island itself would have been destroyed upon wave impact) then the area of Manhattan and the western edge of Long Island were thrust 1,000 ft into the air and then dropped 500 ft. Even buildings of Megacrete were destroyed.
The sheer force of the water involved means that even MD vehicles and buildings were destroyed and the subsequent amount of water (from the following waves) flooded everything else. Also as water tends to flow towards the lowest point it would have (over the centuries) seeped into just about every open space there was thru all manner of nooks and crannies.
I respect their efforts, I just don't agree w/much of the content. For any gamer, playing an RPG means being able to suspend your disbelief. If you can't suspend your disbelief then the game or setting becomes unenjoyable. Madhaven defies all reasonable disbelief and puts forth a setting that is untenable even by "normal" Rifts standards.

No offense but you semt o be going out of your way with real world in order to show you cannot suspend your disbelief. The rest of seem to be eable to suspend our belief of a lot of thigns even when real world defies. Hell look atthe magic ammo container of the Glitterboy. 1000 rounds in a 100 round space

[The Galactus Kid]

Also, being thrust upwards 1000 ft and then plumetting down 500 ft means that you are still 500 feet higher than you started...not underwater.

[keir451]

@jaymz; I base much of my gaming very heavily off of what does/doesn't exist in the real world as that is what my players want from my games. I've also found that using 'reality' as my game basis makes my games more enjoyable for everyone I game with.
Magic use, magical beings, etc. don't always need to be explained (i've played D&D too long for that to even be an issue).
Yet at the same time I try to realistically (as much as reasonably possible) alter my Rifts technology to reflect the trends I see in current technology(that way I don't have someone arguing about it all session long ). I also don't set things up to screw with my players arbitrarily (the way I feel Madhaven screws w/players) as it makes the game unenjoyable for us all.
I've been trying to point out what I felt were the inconsistancies that make me dislike Madhaven (and the supplemental article).
Disagreements are welcome but also subject to being refuted .
Several people (you included) have pointed out diffferent ways to approach Madhaven and I do see the vailidity of those concepts, I just don't agree w/aspects of the setting and treasure lists. Whem confronted on these subjects I explain why, but always ther is the caveat that this is IMO and applies to MY games. Anyone may disregard these statements for their games
The magic ammo container of the GB is a good point , when I was new to Rifts it didn't matter at all, but now that I'm older it does. I just throw away the 1,000 rnd capacity and stick with the 100 rnds.
I can still suspend my disbelief pretty easily, but I take issue w/ settings like Madhaven that arbitrarily screw you over in defiance of even established game rules.
To me Rifts Earth is 'our' Earth just w/another 87 yrs of advancement down roads we are already travelling, then I tack on another 300 yrs of humanity recovering from a world wide Apocalypse, "add magic and magical beings and stir."

[keir451]

Also, being thrust upwards 1000 ft and then plumetting down 500 ft means that you are still 500 feet higher than you started...not underwater.

Agreed. I won't argue that point, I will simply add that the book (Madhaven) does effectively describe the region as being completly inundated w/ wave after wave of sea water during the initial days of the Apocaplypse (as you well know). Having lived along the East coast for 20+ yrs and seen the results of hurricane flooding, the amount of flooding Manhattan received would have penetrated anything that was not already airtight and the following upheaval of terrain DID crack and destroy even MDC buildings. That leads me to the conclusion that if it could do that to buildings that were probably designed to take huge earthquake stresses (possibly 8 or higher on the Richter scale)then it could do that to bank vaults or other things and the water that was already there (from the waves and Tsunami) would flow into the resulting gaps, not to mention 300 years of rain and snow fall as well.

[The Galactus Kid]

I will also agree with Jaymz here regarding suspension of disbelief...there are ghosts, zombies, and magic...

[keir451]

I will also agree with Jaymz here regarding suspension of disbelief...there are ghosts, zombies, and magic...

I actually don't have a problem w/ ghosts. zombies, magic, etc. As I said I've been playing D&D way too long for that to even be an issue. My biggest complaint is the Psychic scar guff and the fact that ONLY two OCCs are immune to the effects, the oldest rule in the books is the fact that if you wear PA you're immue to psionic assault, reasonably speaking this should include the psionic effects of Madhaven as well, at the very least there should be a bonus to save vs it when wearing PA. How am I supposed to suspend my disbelief when the setting itself violates the game as a whole? I disagreed w/ some of the items on the treasure list because (to me) they did not make sense even from the perspective of the Rifts setting as a whole and more specifically the conditions surrounding Madhaven (those described in the book) plus reasonable assumptions regarding weather and storm conditons.
Am I to assume that weather doesn't exist in Rifts? That the sea water from the tsunami didn't flood low lying areas, the sewers, underground garages and the like? What of the further damage (and flooding) from the following waves? What of the damage done to everything on the island by the tectonic upheaval?
All these things are listed as having happened (established canon), therefore their effects happened as well.
If they did not then Madhaven, as written, does not exist.

[Bood Samel]

I will also agree with Jaymz here regarding suspension of disbelief...there are ghosts, zombies, and magic...

I actually don't have a problem w/ ghosts. zombies, magic, etc. As I said I've been playing D&D way too long for that to even be an issue. My biggest complaint is the Psychic scar guff and the fact that ONLY two OCCs are immune to the effects, the oldest rule in the books is the fact that if you wear PA you're immue to psionic assault, reasonably speaking this should include the psionic effects of Madhaven as well, at the very least there should be a bonus to save vs it when wearing PA. How am I supposed to suspend my disbelief when the setting itself violates the game as a whole? I disagreed w/ some of the items on the treasure list because (to me) they did not make sense even from the perspective of the Rifts setting as a whole and more specifically the conditions surrounding Madhaven (those described in the book) plus reasonable assumptions regarding weather and storm conditons.
Am I to assume that weather doesn't exist in Rifts? That the sea water from the tsunami didn't flood low lying areas, the sewers, underground garages and the like? What of the further damage (and flooding) from the following waves? What of the damage done to everything on the island by the tectonic upheaval?
All these things are listed as having happened (established canon), therefore their effects happened as well.
If they did not then Madhaven, as written, does not exist.

I dont have any issue with the psychic aura of Madhaven being more powerful then anywhere else in the game. It makes the place uniquely dangerous. I can understand taking issue with the treasure list though.

[dark brandon]

As for what I consider treasure... Yeah a parking meter could be considered treasure (I remember a Sliders episode similar to this), but you'd have to come out of Madhaven w/ a lot of parking meters, etc. to pay for the repairs that one (or more) 1,100 MD mutant could inflict (going by the regular repair prices) and to get that much material you'd need to spend way too much time in Madhaven thus exposing yourself to the effects tof the Psychic Scar.
I can play a Rogue Scholar/Scientist w/ the best of them, but what's the point if I'm going to be railroaded (as some suggested) into going into a place such as Madhaven, I'd have a better chance of surviving the Splynn Dimensional Market or Mexico than I would Madhaven, even if I took my time and prepped before hand they are still MORE mutants than the people helping me, and if I leave my dig to escape the effects of the Psychic emanations the enviroment and the mutants would destroy anything I left behind.

I don't think you need to be railroaded to go to madhaven. It helps, but if you need money and can get enough research on it...it's a good place to start.

You may need lots of parking meters, but if you can find the right item, (for example one CD), it would well be worth your time and the danger.

I don't see any normal adventerer going...but I could see maybe a juicer who is nearing last call and doesn't want to die and will try for the borg conversion. A rogue scientist/scholar for information they may obtain (after doing research).

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

I'll grant that some books may have survived, just the ones on Manhattan Island weren't likely to, not after being submerged for who know how long. Some of the vehicles may indeed have been (past tense) water tight, but not after sitting on the bottom of Long Islanf sound for more than a decade (y'know unless they were MDC).

Manhattan is not underwater, it was thrust upward by the tectonic activity during the Coming of the Rifts. It is now a tiny peninsula of what was once New York State.

Also, Manhattan wouldn't be on the bottom of Long Island Sound even if it sank, it would be beneath an estuary formed by the converging of the East River and Hudson River.

~ Josh

Hey Josh, Loved your article in the same Rifter, but Check your RUE again IT clearly states (on pg. 41 and according to half the people here anyhting in the RUE takes precedent over any other world book) that the Island was submerged. The land Manhattan sits on also abuts the western end of Long Island sound, so it would be under the waters of both the estuary and Long island sound.

Thanks for the props!

Keep in mind though that the world description in Ultimate Edition is not a catch all view of the world set forth in stone by Kevin, but rather as a view from somebody living on Rifts Earth in 109 P.A.: Erin Tarn. She wasn't alive at the time so it is reasonable to assume that the island being submerged before it was then raised was her own supposition not taking into account the possibility of tectonic activity in the area. She goes on to state in the same paragraph that "but there aren't even legends about it." Her statements on the matter are just guess work, IMO.

I may be wrong about that though and I know KC (and others) disagrees with me on the whole "Erin Tarn said it via in game prose so it is not necessarily canon" argument.

~ Josh

[keir451]

Thx Josh! I will keep that in mind.

@ Bood Samel; Try this scenario, I've just rolled up a non-psychic human, power armour pilot w/an ME of 9. I(for whatever reason) end up in Madhaven. By the book how long do I have before I go insane? How many insanities does it take before the character is unplayable? Those represent my fundamental problems w/Madhaven. The list is really just a minor thing, one that I can easily change, the psychic aura on the other hand, not so much.

@ E.Ryu; Da only "railroading" I wanna see is da train outta here. Railroading just doesn't work on me. I'm like a mule, I dig in my feet and go "Oh Hell NO!" and then go the OTHER direction.

[jaymz]

Thx Josh! I will keep that in mind.

@ Bood Samel; Try this scenario, I've just rolled up a non-psychic human, power armour pilot w/an ME of 9. I(for whatever reason) end up in Madhaven. By the book how long do I have before I go insane? How many insanities does it take before the character is unplayable? Those represent my fundamental problems w/Madhaven. The list is really just a minor thing, one that I can easily change, the psychic aura on the other hand, not so much.

@ E.Ryu; Da only "railroading" I wanna see is da train outta here. Railroading just doesn't work on me. I'm like a mule, I dig in my feet and go "Oh Hell NO!" and then go the OTHER direction.

That wasn'r E. Ryu you responded too. E.Ryu hasn;t been aroundin months Kier

[keir451]

Thx Josh! I will keep that in mind.

@ Bood Samel; Try this scenario, I've just rolled up a non-psychic human, power armour pilot w/an ME of 9. I(for whatever reason) end up in Madhaven. By the book how long do I have before I go insane? How many insanities does it take before the character is unplayable? Those represent my fundamental problems w/Madhaven. The list is really just a minor thing, one that I can easily change, the psychic aura on the other hand, not so much.

@ Dark Brandon; Da only "railroading" I wanna see is da train outta here. Railroading just doesn't work on me. I'm like a mule, I dig in my feet and go "Oh Hell NO!" and then go the OTHER direction.

That wasn'r E. Ryu you responded too. E.Ryu hasn;t been aroundin months Kier

D'oh!! I saw the "Emperor" face avatar and thought it was Ryu, my bad. There I fixed it.