Glitter Boy vs SAMAS

[Dlanaan]

It is mentioned in the books that Glitter Boys are slow and ponderous and that a pair of SAMAS should be able to easily take that out. But I guess I don't understand GB combat well enough to see how the slowness is shown. The way it is described, a GB can fire by dropping its pylons and retracting the pylons in the same melee action.

Am I missing something in the mechanics?

[sasha]

Welcome.

I can't find the last time this came up but it was a few million posts long.
Conclusion: nobody really knows.

P.S. remove your duplicate post.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Glitterboy is "slow and ponderous" because it can only run at 60 mph.
This does not generally impair it in combat very much.

[MaxxSterling]

Yeah, there's not really anything canon backing up the statement. I don't personally see two samas dropping one. The GB only has to hit them 2-3 times. But they'd have to pound on it.

[Damian Magecraft]

Yeah, there's not really anything canon backing up the statement. I don't personally see two samas dropping one. The GB only has to hit them 2-3 times. But they'd have to pound on it.

I have done it with 2 Sammas before. It was not an easy fight but it can be done. but probably not as often as the book fluff would have us believe.

[cornholioprime]

Waitaminute.......ex-SQUEEZE me.....




but I'm a little curious:

What, exactly, does the Glitter Boy have in the way of effective Anti-Air defenses?!?

I mean, wouldn't a Glitter Boy, even with computer-assisted aiming technology, have a pretty hard time trying to hit the surprisingly agile SAMAS whilst it strafes the comparatively slow-moving GB?

[cchopps]

I mean, wouldn't a Glitter Boy, even with computer-assisted aiming technology, have a pretty hard time trying to hit the surprisingly agile SAMAS whilst it strafes the comparatively slow-moving GB?

Show your numbers. Cruising Speed for Samas is 150mph. According to RUE that is a -3 strike penalty for moving at that speed. An additional -1 if the Samas is taking "evasive action." Some people argue how fast power armor can fly without shooting wild and if evasive makes it wild. Even the most liberal seem to stop at cruising speed. Glitter Boy Elite gives a +2 with Boom Gun in addition to WP. Descended Pilots get an extra +1. The Glitter Boy's Laser Targeting is +2. Weapon Systems is +1.

So, 1st level GB is looking at a +3 to strike a Samas moving at cruising speed and not taking evasive action. Maybe +5 if he takes a turn to aim. So, if the Samas isn't dodging you are hitting 80% of the time without aiming. True a low level Samas is likely to have a +10 Dodge. But the GB only has to hit 2-3 times to end the Samas.

Is that about right?

C. Chopps

[Tyranneix]

I've killed a glitter boy with a plasma cannon in body armor. anything is possible. I prowled up to him and put the barrel of the gun up to his chin while we was targeting another playing in a SAM. he never saw it coming, rolled a natural 20 and it was point blank range with a C-29 ad I rolled a 6 on the D6, I knocked off 240 MD of the total 290 MDC to his head. I knocked his ass clean out. So that just goes to show if you think about it, anything is possibly. The next shot killed him.

[Killer Cyborg]

I mean, wouldn't a Glitter Boy, even with computer-assisted aiming technology, have a pretty hard time trying to hit the surprisingly agile SAMAS whilst it strafes the comparatively slow-moving GB?

No.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've killed a glitter boy with a plasma cannon in body armor. anything is possible. I prowled up to him and put the barrel of the gun up to his chin while we was targeting another playing in a SAM. he never saw it coming, rolled a natural 20 and it was point blank range with a C-29 ad I rolled a 6 on the D6, I knocked off 240 MD of the total 290 MDC to his head. I knocked his ass clean out. So that just goes to show if you think about it, anything is possibly. The next shot killed him.

If I was running, a nat 20 and 60 MD for damage would mean 120 MD total, with no chance of knockout.
Which is why these conversations never go anywhere; everybody plays by different rules.

(Edited a mistake)

[cchopps]

I've killed a glitter boy with a plasma cannon in body armor. anything is possible. I prowled up to him and put the barrel of the gun up to his chin while we was targeting another playing in a SAM. he never saw it coming, rolled a natural 20 and it was point blank range with a C-29 ad I rolled a 6 on the D6, I knocked off 240 MD of the total 290 MDC to his head. I knocked his ass clean out. So that just goes to show if you think about it, anything is possibly. The next shot killed him.

I'm not sure how you hit 240 MD with a C-29. It is 1D6X10. Your Nat 20 would have done 120 MD. The head of a GB has 290 MD. Even more, the pilot's head isn't even in the head of the GB. You notice on the description of the head that it doesn't say if you blow the head off the pilot must rely on his own vision. Then if you look at the picture, you see that the pilot's feet are pretty low inside the foot. A GB is 10' tall and there definitely isn't 4' between the bottom of the pilot's foot and ground.

Even if his head was in the helmet, how would your plasma (energy) blast knock him out? According to RUE a power armor pilot only takes 1 point of damage for every 20 MD of an explosion. A plasma hit isn't even kinetic damage. I understand you guys having fun and wanting your sneak attack to be cool, but that is serious house rules.

C. Chopps

[Tyranneix]

I've killed a glitter boy with a plasma cannon in body armor. anything is possible. I prowled up to him and put the barrel of the gun up to his chin while we was targeting another playing in a SAM. he never saw it coming, rolled a natural 20 and it was point blank range with a C-29 ad I rolled a 6 on the D6, I knocked off 240 MD of the total 290 MDC to his head. I knocked his ass clean out. So that just goes to show if you think about it, anything is possibly. The next shot killed him.

I'm not sure how you hit 240 MD with a C-29. It is 1D6X10. Your Nat 20 would have done 120 MD. The head of a GB has 290 MD. Even more, the pilot's head isn't even in the head of the GB. You notice on the description of the head that it doesn't say if you blow the head off the pilot must rely on his own vision. Then if you look at the picture, you see that the pilot's feet are pretty low inside the foot. A GB is 10' tall and there definitely isn't 4' between the bottom of the pilot's foot and ground.

Even if his head was in the helmet, how would your plasma (energy) blast knock him out? According to RUE a power armor pilot only takes 1 point of damage for every 20 MD of an explosion. A plasma hit isn't even kinetic damage. I understand you guys having fun and wanting your sneak attack to be cool, but that is serious house rules.

C. Chopps

Point blank range (under 10 feet) is double damage. I rolled 60 MD on the dice.. on a natural 20 at point blank range. it doubles the double damage. it's in the books. I put the plasma cannon right up to it's face. Rules say anything over 200 MD is an automatic knockout. RIFTS Conversion book. This fight took place before RUE was ever published, right after CWC came out. I can quote page numbers if you would like. I've been playing RIFTS for 20 years. you guys always assume when someone posts a fight or an example that we are using a rather recent rules change. This was way before that.

oh and as for the GB pilots head not being in the helmet? look at page 220 original publication of RIFTS.. bottom right hand pic and tell me that pilot's head is not in the helmet.. and pg 222 shows the pilots feet to be at least 2 to 3 feet off the ground and there is a foot of stuff on the helmet. so that accounts for a 6ft man being in a GB. Anyone care to argue that fact?

[cchopps]

as for the GB pilots head not being in the helmet? look at page 220

You are absolutely right. I missed that on the mini pic in RUE and I'm just thinking that is one super tall pilot. I was also thinking I had read that the head wasn't in the helmet in one of the write up debates as to whether the GB is PA or Robot. But now I'm thinking that is the UltiMax.

Point blank range (under 10 feet) is double damage.

Even in RMB/Original Conversion I'm not sure about this. In Conversion 1 it is very clear that point blank bonus damage only affects living things (SDC specifically) and not body armor, structures, or power armor. Bullets and bolts did 50% extra straight to hit points. Explosions did double damage to hit points. It does say that MDC creatures (not power armor or body armor) may take non-specified additional damage if it is point blank and "powerful" at "GM discretion." Page 17 and 18 of original conversion book.

it doubles the double damage. it's in the books.

My group has always added multipliers. two x2 effects turn it into x3 not x4, but that is a house rule. I don't recall Palladium ever saying how that should be handled. If you can actually give me a page number for that I would really appreciate it.

Rules say anything over 200 MD is an automatic knockout. RIFTS Conversion book.

True. Original Conversion book did say that. It was changed in later books (GMG for sure before RUE) to only apply to kinetic damage and not energy.

I've been playing RIFTS for 20 years. you guys always assume when someone posts a fight or an example that we are using a rather recent rules change. This was way before that.

I've been playing Palladium games since '92. And I run into that a lot on here too. I apologize for that. I try to be careful with my stories when they are too prove a mechanics discussion because if I go to the way back machine I get nailed for it. My group has actually just adopted a lot of the RUE stuff in the last two years. We only play 2-3 times a year and are playing next week.. so I'm posting a lot and reading up on the rules right now.

C. Chopps

[Dog_O_War]

Waitaminute.......ex-SQUEEZE me.....




but I'm a little curious:

What, exactly, does the Glitter Boy have in the way of effective Anti-Air defenses?!?

A cannon that fires a hail of super-darts at a range of two miles.

It is mentioned in the books that Glitter Boys are slow and ponderous and that a pair of SAMAS should be able to easily take that out. But I guess I don't understand GB combat well enough to see how the slowness is shown. The way it is described, a GB can fire by dropping its pylons and retracting the pylons in the same melee action.

Am I missing something in the mechanics?

This is a topic that has been debated and argued over about a dozen times. To give you the short, "Dog's version" of it, yes - you are missing something in the mechanics. It's the part where the stuff in fluff is actually possible, and not just made up.

I typically favor the Glitterboy in these debates, not due to a liking of the suit, but due to the sheer weight of mechanical edge the suit has when it comes to the rules.

Also, a point to note; the pylons plant/retract automatically in a fraction of a second when you fire the boomgun. The SAMAS on the other hand has no weapons that match the range and power of the GB, let alone the toughness. And as far as the SAMAS agility and speed are concerned, it's a very minor edge. One I wouldn't bet my life on as a SAMAS pilot against a Glitterboy.

[Zer0 Kay]

I've killed a glitter boy with a plasma cannon in body armor. anything is possible. I prowled up to him and put the barrel of the gun up to his chin while we was targeting another playing in a SAM. he never saw it coming, rolled a natural 20 and it was point blank range with a C-29 ad I rolled a 6 on the D6, I knocked off 240 MD of the total 290 MDC to his head. I knocked his ass clean out. So that just goes to show if you think about it, anything is possibly. The next shot killed him.

I'm not sure how you hit 240 MD with a C-29. It is 1D6X10. Your Nat 20 would have done 120 MD. The head of a GB has 290 MD. Even more, the pilot's head isn't even in the head of the GB. You notice on the description of the head that it doesn't say if you blow the head off the pilot must rely on his own vision. Then if you look at the picture, you see that the pilot's feet are pretty low inside the foot. A GB is 10' tall and there definitely isn't 4' between the bottom of the pilot's foot and ground.

Even if his head was in the helmet, how would your plasma (energy) blast knock him out? According to RUE a power armor pilot only takes 1 point of damage for every 20 MD of an explosion. A plasma hit isn't even kinetic damage. I understand you guys having fun and wanting your sneak attack to be cool, but that is serious house rules.

C. Chopps

Point blank range (under 10 feet) is double damage. I rolled 60 MD on the dice.. on a natural 20 at point blank range. it doubles the double damage. it's in the books. I put the plasma cannon right up to it's face. Rules say anything over 200 MD is an automatic knockout. RIFTS Conversion book. This fight took place before RUE was ever published, right after CWC came out. I can quote page numbers if you would like. I've been playing RIFTS for 20 years. you guys always assume when someone posts a fight or an example that we are using a rather recent rules change. This was way before that.

oh and as for the GB pilots head not being in the helmet? look at page 220 original publication of RIFTS.. bottom right hand pic and tell me that pilot's head is not in the helmet.. and pg 222 shows the pilots feet to be at least 2 to 3 feet off the ground and there is a foot of stuff on the helmet. so that accounts for a 6ft man being in a GB. Anyone care to argue that fact?

Um... T it is also in the books that you don't multiply multipliers. So a crit at point blank does only x3. Think of it this way:
1x damage
1x critical
1x point blank

if you do point blank damage that is x2, if you do critical damage that is x2 one of the x's on each are for the normal damage of the weapon so critical point blank damage is x3.

Dang I didn't finish reading the other two posts
but it even makes more sense a critical is normal damage plus critical and point blank is normal damage plus close up damage the normal damage can't be there twice.

[TechnoGothic]

We have had GB take Samas out in one shot way too many times. (called shots to heads).
Samas while in flight is always firing Wild anyways. Any movement fast than Walking means Wild Shooting, then it classifies as Wild Shots. GBs are lucky in that they Require to Stop to Shoot the Boomgun. Then they AIM their BG (WP+Weapons Systems+GB-Elite+whatever else *Sniper* is great). Sure the Samas has better Dodge while in flight, but since they are firing Wild while motion its a moot point. The GB will Hit a Samas pretty easily enough. With Called Shots, the GB can take out Samas quickly too.

[Damian Magecraft]

We have had GB take Samas out in one shot way too many times. (called shots to heads).
Samas while in flight is always firing Wild anyways. Any movement fast than Walking means Wild Shooting, then it classifies as Wild Shots. GBs are lucky in that they Require to Stop to Shoot the Boomgun. Then they AIM their BG (WP+Weapons Systems+GB-Elite+whatever else *Sniper* is great). Sure the Samas has better Dodge while in flight, but since they are firing Wild while motion its a moot point. The GB will Hit a Samas pretty easily enough. With Called Shots, the GB can take out Samas quickly too.

Actually no it is not firing wild. but the speed modifiers do still apply. See this post for a reasonable argument why the wild fire rules do not apply.

[Tyranneix]

as for the GB pilots head not being in the helmet? look at page 220

You are absolutely right. I missed that on the mini pic in RUE and I'm just thinking that is one super tall pilot. I was also thinking I had read that the head wasn't in the helmet in one of the write up debates as to whether the GB is PA or Robot. But now I'm thinking that is the UltiMax.

I was talking about the pic in the original rule book. but yeah, seems a lot of people miss that one when dealing with power armors of any type and there are very few exceptions where that is not the case (the GB Killer being one of those notable exceptions).

Point blank range (under 10 feet) is double damage.

Even in RMB/Original Conversion I'm not sure about this. In Conversion 1 it is very clear that point blank bonus damage only affects living things (SDC specifically) and not body armor, structures, or power armor. Bullets and bolts did 50% extra straight to hit points. Explosions did double damage to hit points. It does say that MDC creatures (not power armor or body armor) may take non-specified additional damage if it is point blank and "powerful" at "GM discretion." Page 17 and 18 of original conversion book.

Actually on page 22 dealing with sdc and explosive that mdc creatures and structures.. but again we're dealing with game being a while back (mid 90s I if I remember correctly) and I wasn't running the game. so it is possible that rule has been misinterpreted. after reading the new RUE rules, I can't find where they address the point blank with guns. interesting..

it doubles the double damage. it's in the books.

My group has always added multipliers. two x2 effects turn it into x3 not x4, but that is a house rule. I don't recall Palladium ever saying how that should be handled. If you can actually give me a page number for that I would really appreciate it.

The GM that I played with doubled the crit. I can see where that may have been in error, however 180 MD to the dome is still gonna knock back and still base a 80% chance to knock down, again yet another rule that is not addressed in RUE unless I misse dit and I've spent the last 30 minutes looking for it..

Um... T it is also in the books that you don't multiply multipliers. So a crit at point blank does only x3. Think of it this way:
1x damage
1x critical
1x point blank

if you do point blank damage that is x2, if you do critical damage that is x2 one of the x's on each are for the normal damage of the weapon so critical point blank damage is x3.

Dang I didn't finish reading the other two posts
but it even makes more sense a critical is normal damage plus critical and point blank is normal damage plus close up damage the normal damage can't be there twice.

I stand corrected! but again , I think we were playing the GMs rules at that time.. he said 240 MD and I wasn't about to complain with him. I was a dude in body armor trying to kill a glitter boy. I wasn't actually running the game.

Rules say anything over 200 MD is an automatic knockout. RIFTS Conversion book.

True. Original Conversion book did say that. It was changed in later books (GMG for sure before RUE) to only apply to kinetic damage and not energy.

The GMG pg 356 states

"The impact from and explosion, parrying a powerful energy blast (which plasma is) or a power punch/impact from a robot or supernatural creature, tackle, ram. Wind Rush, Telekinetic Push and other types of attacks may knock the character off their feet, even if the damage from the attack is minimal or successfully parried. It is the force of the attack that is likely to knock the individual off his feet."

then below that it states it's applicable to characters in power armor, full conversion cyborgs, robots and supernatural beings and characters with an MDC of 500 or higher.
Even with my original damage being corrected to 180 instead of 240, that's still gonna knock you on your butt. All you need is a low percentile roll (under 80%).

I've been playing RIFTS for 20 years. you guys always assume when someone posts a fight or an example that we are using a rather recent rules change. This was way before that.

I've been playing Palladium games since '92. And I run into that a lot on here too. I apologize for that. I try to be careful with my stories when they are too prove a mechanics discussion because if I go to the way back machine I get nailed for it. My group has actually just adopted a lot of the RUE stuff in the last two years. We only play 2-3 times a year and are playing next week.. so I'm posting a lot and reading up on the rules right now.

C. Chopps

yeah that's the biggest thing with the RIFTS rules in general. half the damn things are optional or GM discretion. and they are spread out over several books.. the RUE did not clarify that last one.. you still have to look up rules in other books.

Oh well. this has been an interesting talk. back to the original discussion.

Ryu, I believe this is old school SAMAS vs the USA-G10. normally the SAMAS doesn't stand a chance.. hell a nice well placed shot with the Boom Gun and bye bye wings, or helmet, or rail gun, or engines. The SAMAS has to rely on quick thinking and the power armor's natural maneuverability to best a GB in one on one combat.

[cornholioprime]

Query:

Are we deliberately leaving out the SAMAS' complement of Missiles?

From the writeup, they are 'standard' for the unit (only the type of missile and loadout is fluid).

[Dlanaan]

I am guessing it would be standard loadout. Like I said, I was just going with the 'fluff' language as it was described. These would probably also refer to the older versions rather than the upgraded ones. This has been helpful, though, especially as it helps me see the debate from both sides.

[Shark_Force]

called shots take 2-3 actions these days, so a SAMAS could potentially (if able to spot the GB aiming visually) take cover before the GB gets a chance to fire their aimed shot at the head, wing, etc.

but yeah, i wouldn't expect 2 SAMAS to win. they might... i mean, it's not impossible or anything. the simple fact that the SAMAS can apply such large negative modifiers on their approach, then split up, and the one the GB is aiming at dodges while the other one attacks... yeah, i could see it being theoretically possible. you'd need the SAMAS pilots to be danged good (like level 7+ and above-average stats, imo), and the GB pilot would have to be no better than mediocre (average stats, level not higher than 2-3), to see something like this happen regularly.

3 SAMAS vs 1 GB would be a lot closer, with a little bit of luck it could potentially swing either way, and of course the location would play a major role.

4 SAMAS vs 1 GB i would expect the SAMAS to win almost every time. the GB could wind up being really lucky, but the SAMAS team will most likely win easily.

[Zer0 Kay]

as for the GB pilots head not being in the helmet? look at page 220

You are absolutely right. I missed that on the mini pic in RUE and I'm just thinking that is one super tall pilot. I was also thinking I had read that the head wasn't in the helmet in one of the write up debates as to whether the GB is PA or Robot. But now I'm thinking that is the UltiMax.

I was talking about the pic in the original rule book. but yeah, seems a lot of people miss that one when dealing with power armors of any type and there are very few exceptions where that is not the case (the GB Killer being one of those notable exceptions).

Point blank range (under 10 feet) is double damage.

Even in RMB/Original Conversion I'm not sure about this. In Conversion 1 it is very clear that point blank bonus damage only affects living things (SDC specifically) and not body armor, structures, or power armor. Bullets and bolts did 50% extra straight to hit points. Explosions did double damage to hit points. It does say that MDC creatures (not power armor or body armor) may take non-specified additional damage if it is point blank and "powerful" at "GM discretion." Page 17 and 18 of original conversion book.

Actually on page 22 dealing with sdc and explosive that mdc creatures and structures.. but again we're dealing with game being a while back (mid 90s I if I remember correctly) and I wasn't running the game. so it is possible that rule has been misinterpreted. after reading the new RUE rules, I can't find where they address the point blank with guns. interesting..

it doubles the double damage. it's in the books.

My group has always added multipliers. two x2 effects turn it into x3 not x4, but that is a house rule. I don't recall Palladium ever saying how that should be handled. If you can actually give me a page number for that I would really appreciate it.

The GM that I played with doubled the crit. I can see where that may have been in error, however 180 MD to the dome is still gonna knock back and still base a 80% chance to knock down, again yet another rule that is not addressed in RUE unless I misse dit and I've spent the last 30 minutes looking for it..

Um... T it is also in the books that you don't multiply multipliers. So a crit at point blank does only x3. Think of it this way:
1x damage
1x critical
1x point blank

if you do point blank damage that is x2, if you do critical damage that is x2 one of the x's on each are for the normal damage of the weapon so critical point blank damage is x3.

Dang I didn't finish reading the other two posts
but it even makes more sense a critical is normal damage plus critical and point blank is normal damage plus close up damage the normal damage can't be there twice.

I stand corrected! but again , I think we were playing the GMs rules at that time.. he said 240 MD and I wasn't about to complain with him. I was a dude in body armor trying to kill a glitter boy. I wasn't actually running the game.

Rules say anything over 200 MD is an automatic knockout. RIFTS Conversion book.

True. Original Conversion book did say that. It was changed in later books (GMG for sure before RUE) to only apply to kinetic damage and not energy.

The GMG pg 356 states

"The impact from and explosion, parrying a powerful energy blast (which plasma is) or a power punch/impact from a robot or supernatural creature, tackle, ram. Wind Rush, Telekinetic Push and other types of attacks may knock the character off their feet, even if the damage from the attack is minimal or successfully parried. It is the force of the attack that is likely to knock the individual off his feet."

then below that it states it's applicable to characters in power armor, full conversion cyborgs, robots and supernatural beings and characters with an MDC of 500 or higher.
Even with my original damage being corrected to 180 instead of 240, that's still gonna knock you on your butt. All you need is a low percentile roll (under 80%).

I've been playing RIFTS for 20 years. you guys always assume when someone posts a fight or an example that we are using a rather recent rules change. This was way before that.

I've been playing Palladium games since '92. And I run into that a lot on here too. I apologize for that. I try to be careful with my stories when they are too prove a mechanics discussion because if I go to the way back machine I get nailed for it. My group has actually just adopted a lot of the RUE stuff in the last two years. We only play 2-3 times a year and are playing next week.. so I'm posting a lot and reading up on the rules right now.

C. Chopps

yeah that's the biggest thing with the RIFTS rules in general. half the damn things are optional or GM discretion. and they are spread out over several books.. the RUE did not clarify that last one.. you still have to look up rules in other books.

Oh well. this has been an interesting talk. back to the original discussion.

Ryu, I believe this is old school SAMAS vs the USA-G10. normally the SAMAS doesn't stand a chance.. hell a nice well placed shot with the Boom Gun and bye bye wings, or helmet, or rail gun, or engines. The SAMAS has to rely on quick thinking and the power armor's natural maneuverability to best a GB in one on one combat.

Damn straight NEVER argue with the GM when it is in your favor and just continue on as fast as possible so the GM doesn't have time to think and reconsider his decision.

So the rules were wrong... your actions were right.

[The Beast]

For those of you wondering about the crit modifier; if you have "Critical From Behind" and roll a Nat 20, it is a *3, not a *4. This leads me to believe that the crit situation discussed here would be the same way. I'll have to get back with you all tonight when I have time to look through and find which book I got this from, but for now I'll say it was in N&S.

[Zer0 Kay]

Query:

Are we deliberately leaving out the SAMAS' complement of Missiles?

From the writeup, they are 'standard' for the unit (only the type of missile and loadout is fluid).

Gee we know mini missiles are unguided so then they are just projectiles and should also be able to be used with called shots. If we now use AP rockets it is x3 on a critical if we go by frogboys definition of of pointblank then the entire length of flight of a mini-missile is point blank so in frogboys games with an AP mini-missile it is already x4 on a critical 1d4x10. Called aimed shot to the GB's head 3 actions. If both SAMAS get crits and roll 4 for damage, that would be... 40x2 for 80 x4 for critical AP point blank called head shot at 320 and x2 with both hitting for 640! Now what are the chances of that? So even without frogboys choice of definitions for point blank it is x3 with a crit doing 240. So damage wise it is possible for two SAMAS to take out a GB. Heck it is even possible for 1 SAMAS, if it dodges the GB's shots and gets into point blank range, to take out a GB with 320 to the helmet... of course they could get caught in the blast radious. Then we can add in an extra 80 for behind for 400 or 800 from two attackers, but a single doing normal crit from behind with an AP round at pointblank range... so that is what 1d4x10, +1x crit, +1x AP, +1x normal damage, +1x from behind, +1x point blank, for a max damage of 200 from a single missile, 400 from two and 800 from two attackers though unlikely scoring the same hit. Average though would be what only 80 points from one SAMAS at PB range and the other flanking gets an AP, crit from behind, point blank with two rounds for 20x2 x4 160. Not so good... on average.

[Dog_O_War]

Query:

Are we deliberately leaving out the SAMAS' complement of Missiles?

From the writeup, they are 'standard' for the unit (only the type of missile and loadout is fluid).

It's two; they get two whole mini-missiles that have a range of half that of the boomgun, and do one-third the damage. And they can't even be fired in a volley.

"Leaving out" is pointless because their over-all effect is minor. To give you an example of why;
SAMAS railgun does 1d4x10 MD (avg. 25). The Glitterboy has 770 MDC that you have to get through. Assuming that all of the SAMAS attacks hit, He'd need to make 31 attacks against the GB with that railgun.
Assuming that the SAMAS had plasma mini-missiles (35 avg. dmg), that changes the amount of attacks required to 30. Even with the addition of another SAMAS firing plasma mini-missiles, they still need a combined 30 attacks to put down a Glitterboy.

The Glitterboy needs 3 per SAMAS, and typically has one more attack per round than a SAMAS does.

So leaving out the SAMAS' "compliment" (insult - who gives a suit only 2 missiles?! ) of missiles really doesn't matter in the end.

[cornholioprime]

Query:

Are we deliberately leaving out the SAMAS' complement of Missiles?

From the writeup, they are 'standard' for the unit (only the type of missile and loadout is fluid).

It's two; they get two whole mini-missiles that have a range of half that of the boomgun, and do one-third the damage. And they can't even be fired in a volley.

"Leaving out" is pointless because their over-all effect is minor. To give you an example of why;
SAMAS railgun does 1d4x10 MD (avg. 25). The Glitterboy has 770 MDC that you have to get through. Assuming that all of the SAMAS attacks hit, He'd need to make 31 attacks against the GB with that railgun.
Assuming that the SAMAS had plasma mini-missiles (35 avg. dmg), that changes the amount of attacks required to 30. Even with the addition of another SAMAS firing plasma mini-missiles, they still need a combined 30 attacks to put down a Glitterboy.

The Glitterboy needs 3 per SAMAS, and typically has one more attack per round than a SAMAS does.

So leaving out the SAMAS' "compliment" (insult - who gives a suit only 2 missiles?! ) of missiles really doesn't matter in the end.

I wonder if Emperor Prosek personally kicked each person on the SAMAS Design Team in the huevos when he found out about that Design Flaw!?!?



(Forgive me, man, I didn't know it was only TWO Missiles!!)

Lieutenant William 'Starscream' Dawson, Chief Engineer, SAMAS Project: "Who dares interrupt my presentation on the SAMAS Missile System?"

Emperor Prosek: "Missile 'System?!?' This is Bad Comedy."

[Tyranneix]

I suppose we are although you know just as well as I do that it will evolve into something else shortly.

Back on topic I guess..

[Damian Magecraft]

Query:

Are we deliberately leaving out the SAMAS' complement of Missiles?

From the writeup, they are 'standard' for the unit (only the type of missile and loadout is fluid).

It's two; they get two whole mini-missiles that have a range of half that of the boomgun, and do one-third the damage. And they can't even be fired in a volley.

"Leaving out" is pointless because their over-all effect is minor. To give you an example of why;
SAMAS railgun does 1d4x10 MD (avg. 25). The Glitterboy has 770 MDC that you have to get through. Assuming that all of the SAMAS attacks hit, He'd need to make 31 attacks against the GB with that railgun.
Assuming that the SAMAS had plasma mini-missiles (35 avg. dmg), that changes the amount of attacks required to 30. Even with the addition of another SAMAS firing plasma mini-missiles, they still need a combined 30 attacks to put down a Glitterboy.

The Glitterboy needs 3 per SAMAS, and typically has one more attack per round than a SAMAS does.

So leaving out the SAMAS' "compliment" (insult - who gives a suit only 2 missiles?! ) of missiles really doesn't matter in the end.

Two can do it but it will be all kinds of messy. I do not see it being done consistently (as the fluff text implies) as it does require a few above and below average rolls on the participants part. But impossible or requiring spectacular fails and successes? no.

[Damian Magecraft]

I suppose we are although you know just as well as I do that it will evolve into something else shortly.

Back on topic I guess..

well that is what happens when you converse with people who suffer from both OCD and ADSQUIRREL!

[SkyeFyre]

In reference to the person who shot the GB in the head twice to kill him. Doesn't the GB also have a reinforced pilot's compartment with 150MDC. Wouldn't you need to take that out to get the pilot inside?

[Tyranneix]

In reference to the person who shot the GB in the head twice to kill him. Doesn't the GB also have a reinforced pilot's compartment with 150MDC. Wouldn't you need to take that out to get the pilot inside?

You know I think we missed that. however does I don't think that applies to the head does it, as the pilot's head is in the GBs helmet. but no until you said that I actually totally forgot about that aspect of it.. again oh well.. the GM said I killed it.. so I killed it..

I can take out a GB in a PA-06A SAMAS.. just need some good dice rolls and know where to strike! I'm not gonna kil it, I'm gonna take out that damn gun before it takes me out, once I do that (it has 175 M.D.C.), it's got nothing else.. now the new GBs has that rimaldi weapon system I think... but hey I'm crazy. I'd go toe to toe with a GB with a plain jane SAMAS and expect to win. what's the worst thing that can happen? I die?

[Zer0 Kay]

I suppose we are although you know just as well as I do that it will evolve into something else shortly.

Back on topic I guess..

You sure you don't mean DEVOLVE into the vs. where each person starts putting other stuff into the argument to make it so the SAMAS can win and then someone puts somthing on the GB so it can counter and it just keeps going back and forth.

[cornholioprime]

I suppose we are although you know just as well as I do that it will evolve into something else shortly.

Back on topic I guess..

You sure you don't mean DEVOLVE into the vs. where each person starts putting other stuff into the argument to make it so the SAMAS can win and then someone puts somthing on the GB so it can counter and it just keeps going back and forth.

Well, then, I'll start off by tying both of the Glitter Boy's hands behind its back.

[Traska]

[quote="cornholioprime"

Lieutenant William 'Starscream' Dawson, Chief Engineer, SAMAS Project: "Who dares interrupt my presentation on the SAMAS Missile System?"

Emperor Prosek: "Missile 'System?!?' This is Bad Comedy."


[/quote]

"Emperor Prosek? Is that you?"

[Tyranneix]

Yes Devolve.. exactly.

[Shark_Force]

*technically* i don't believe you can target specific parts of the vehicle with missile fire, it always hits the main body.

(of course, then again... *technically* i don't care what the rules say, and wouldn't use that in my home games. but that's the way it works. why anyone would decide to design a missile that absolutely cannot perform pin-point precision attacks on a portion of a target is beyond me, and i can't imagine the engineers of rifts earth were sitting down and thinking "ok, we want to make sure that this weapon we're designing isn't able to cripple or disable a target without destroying it", but apparently someone else *can* imagine that happening. still, i figured i should mention that the rules require missiles to hit the main body only iirc...)

[cornholioprime]

Lieutenant William 'Starscream' Dawson, Chief Engineer, SAMAS Project: "Who dares interrupt my presentation on the SAMAS Missile System?"

Emperor Prosek: "Missile 'System?!?' This is Bad Comedy."

"Emperor Prosek? Is that you?"

**pulls out custom-made and ordered JA-12**

"HERE'S A HINT!!"

[Zer0 Kay]

*technically* i don't believe you can target specific parts of the vehicle with missile fire, it always hits the main body.

(of course, then again... *technically* i don't care what the rules say, and wouldn't use that in my home games. but that's the way it works. why anyone would decide to design a missile that absolutely cannot perform pin-point precision attacks on a portion of a target is beyond me, and i can't imagine the engineers of rifts earth were sitting down and thinking "ok, we want to make sure that this weapon we're designing isn't able to cripple or disable a target without destroying it", but apparently someone else *can* imagine that happening. still, i figured i should mention that the rules require missiles to hit the main body only iirc...)

Technically yes and canonically mini-missiles are missiles but technically their descriptions make them rockets. Rockets are unguided and so can be called as they go where ever they were aimed... even if by "are not guided" meaning that they don't have internal intelligence and just have a laser tracker... it hits where ever the laser hits. Guided missiles can't be called because they track the mass so will hit the center of the mass, granted if they dared to put in stuff like heat seaking etc. the missiles would then strike the source of the heat causing damage to the engines. So IN MY GAME (not yelling just making sure it is obvious) mini-missiles and controlled micro-missiles CAN be used for called shots... almost makes them MORE dangerous than guided missiles eh? I've also thought it was strange when you use a missile with a blast radious you can get another target in the blast radious but you don't damage the rest of the vehicle you hit...

[Killer Cyborg]

*technically* i don't believe you can target specific parts of the vehicle with missile fire, it always hits the main body.

(of course, then again... *technically* i don't care what the rules say, and wouldn't use that in my home games. but that's the way it works. why anyone would decide to design a missile that absolutely cannot perform pin-point precision attacks on a portion of a target is beyond me, and i can't imagine the engineers of rifts earth were sitting down and thinking "ok, we want to make sure that this weapon we're designing isn't able to cripple or disable a target without destroying it", but apparently someone else *can* imagine that happening. still, i figured i should mention that the rules require missiles to hit the main body only iirc...)

Technically yes and canonically mini-missiles are missiles but technically their descriptions make them rockets. Rockets are unguided and so can be called as they go where ever they were aimed... even if by "are not guided" meaning that they don't have internal intelligence and just have a laser tracker... it hits where ever the laser hits. Guided missiles can't be called because they track the mass so will hit the center of the mass, granted if they dared to put in stuff like heat seaking etc. the missiles would then strike the source of the heat causing damage to the engines. So IN MY GAME (not yelling just making sure it is obvious) mini-missiles and controlled micro-missiles CAN be used for called shots... almost makes them MORE dangerous than guided missiles eh? I've also thought it was strange when you use a missile with a blast radious you can get another target in the blast radious but you don't damage the rest of the vehicle you hit...

As of RUE, the only missiles that are guided are ones that specifically mention being guided, and they're pretty rare.
But the rule about missiles always hitting the main body stands; it's not just for guided missiles.

Long story short, if you're firing a missile, you either hit the main body or you miss.

[Zer0 Kay]

*technically* i don't believe you can target specific parts of the vehicle with missile fire, it always hits the main body.

(of course, then again... *technically* i don't care what the rules say, and wouldn't use that in my home games. but that's the way it works. why anyone would decide to design a missile that absolutely cannot perform pin-point precision attacks on a portion of a target is beyond me, and i can't imagine the engineers of rifts earth were sitting down and thinking "ok, we want to make sure that this weapon we're designing isn't able to cripple or disable a target without destroying it", but apparently someone else *can* imagine that happening. still, i figured i should mention that the rules require missiles to hit the main body only iirc...)

Technically yes and canonically mini-missiles are missiles but technically their descriptions make them rockets. Rockets are unguided and so can be called as they go where ever they were aimed... even if by "are not guided" meaning that they don't have internal intelligence and just have a laser tracker... it hits where ever the laser hits. Guided missiles can't be called because they track the mass so will hit the center of the mass, granted if they dared to put in stuff like heat seaking etc. the missiles would then strike the source of the heat causing damage to the engines. So IN MY GAME (not yelling just making sure it is obvious) mini-missiles and controlled micro-missiles CAN be used for called shots... almost makes them MORE dangerous than guided missiles eh? I've also thought it was strange when you use a missile with a blast radious you can get another target in the blast radious but you don't damage the rest of the vehicle you hit...

As of RUE, the only missiles that are guided are ones that specifically mention being guided, and they're pretty rare.
But the rule about missiles always hitting the main body stands; it's not just for guided missiles.

Long story short, if you're firing a missile, you either hit the main body or you miss.

So wait now you get absolutely no bonuses except weapon systems when firing a missile? BTW that is retarded if a "missile" is unguided it isn't a missile. What is the difference between a rocket and a missile? A Guidance system. As a house rule with minis ever since RT had them as non-guided even though the anime showed a targeting system on Lancers. I decided that "non-guided" meant that it just didn't self guide and was laser guided. So it allows for called shots AND sharp shooters can add their PP bonus to it.

[Shark_Force]

also, for the record, you technically can't do called shots with bursts. again, not that this seems like a particularly realistic rule, nor is it a rule i would enforce if i was GM... but *technically* you can't burst and do a called shot.

[Zer0 Kay]

also, for the record, you technically can't do called shots with bursts. again, not that this seems like a particularly realistic rule, nor is it a rule i would enforce if i was GM... but *technically* you can't burst and do a called shot.

Called shots at its foundation with the combat system starts and the human level. Holding a machine gun steady enough to do burst damage to a called location like a head is hard enough on a pintle mount and almost impossible if held. Name me one burst fire weapon that can get all rounds in a 5 inch diameter target... except for special weapons like the Kriss SMG with its alternate recoil managment or the H&K G11 where the caseless ammo is fired so quickly that the user doesn't feel the recoil until the three round burst has left the barrel or the O'Dwyer VLe where a number of rounds can be fired at the same time again making it so the rounds are gone before the perceived recoil is experienced.

no called on a burst... seems fine to me. Now I'm hoping what you mean is that the first round should be able to hit the called target. The problem is that the whole burst doesn't so what would be the point of bursting on a called? Again though R. Talsorian handles this well with their systems for linked, burst, spread/shotgun fire as well as other effects.

[The Beast]

also, for the record, you technically can't do called shots with bursts. again, not that this seems like a particularly realistic rule, nor is it a rule i would enforce if i was GM... but *technically* you can't burst and do a called shot.

Called shots at its foundation with the combat system starts and the human level. Holding a machine gun steady enough to do burst damage to a called location like a head is hard enough on a pintle mount and almost impossible if held. Name me one burst fire weapon that can get all rounds in a 5 inch diameter target... except for special weapons like the Kriss SMG with its alternate recoil managment or the H&K G11 where the caseless ammo is fired so quickly that the user doesn't feel the recoil until the three round burst has left the barrel or the O'Dwyer VLe where a number of rounds can be fired at the same time again making it so the rounds are gone before the perceived recoil is experienced.

no called on a burst... seems fine to me. Now I'm hoping what you mean is that the first round should be able to hit the called target. The problem is that the whole burst doesn't so what would be the point of bursting on a called? Again though R. Talsorian handles this well with their systems for linked, burst, spread/shotgun fire as well as other effects.

Pulse lasers have no recoil.

[Subjugator]

Lasers have no recoil actually.



/Sub

[JuliusCreed]

Energy weapons as a whole don't have recoil, laser, ion, plasma (except maybe Naruni Plasma cartridge) etc. Except with the noted exception, none of them have any form of explosive propellant that causes recoil.

[Subjugator]

Actually, plasma weapons are noted as having a recoil. I think particle beams or ion weapons do too (I think it's p-beams that do).

/Sub

[The Beast]

Energy weapons as a whole don't have recoil, laser, ion, plasma (except maybe Naruni Plasma cartridge) etc. Except with the noted exception, none of them have any form of explosive propellant that causes recoil.

The plasma cartridge weapons should have one, I don't know if it's canon that they do.

Actually, plasma weapons are noted as having a recoil. I think particle beams or ion weapons do too (I think it's p-beams that do).

/Sub

I think it was PBWs.

[Zer0 Kay]

Lasers have no recoil actually.



/Sub

Actually one of the tech heads argued this and provided the math. Lasers do have recoil as photons do have mass. The thing is that the recoil is not perceptable.

[Zer0 Kay]

also, for the record, you technically can't do called shots with bursts. again, not that this seems like a particularly realistic rule, nor is it a rule i would enforce if i was GM... but *technically* you can't burst and do a called shot.

Called shots at its foundation with the combat system starts and the human level. Holding a machine gun steady enough to do burst damage to a called location like a head is hard enough on a pintle mount and almost impossible if held. Name me one burst fire weapon that can get all rounds in a 5 inch diameter target... except for special weapons like the Kriss SMG with its alternate recoil managment or the H&K G11 where the caseless ammo is fired so quickly that the user doesn't feel the recoil until the three round burst has left the barrel or the O'Dwyer VLe where a number of rounds can be fired at the same time again making it so the rounds are gone before the perceived recoil is experienced.

no called on a burst... seems fine to me. Now I'm hoping what you mean is that the first round should be able to hit the called target. The problem is that the whole burst doesn't so what would be the point of bursting on a called? Again though R. Talsorian handles this well with their systems for linked, burst, spread/shotgun fire as well as other effects.

Pulse lasers have no recoil.

canonically yup and shouldn't be considered a burst either. Anything that comes out that quick shouldn't be considered a burst however it also shouldn't cause additional damage as it will likely be hole in hole. If you can spray with a laser it should be a constant beam weapon and not a pulse weapon.
IRL yes they do... but we can't feel it.

[Zer0 Kay]

Energy weapons as a whole don't have recoil, laser, ion, plasma (except maybe Naruni Plasma cartridge) etc. Except with the noted exception, none of them have any form of explosive propellant that causes recoil.

The explosive propellant is not the primary contributor of the recoil is the moving mass and Newton's third law of motion. If it truely was the gas and it was a gas operated weapon it would blow up the receiver or if it had a muzzle break or recoil compensator it would compeletely cancel out the recoil and produce barrel drop. Instead the receivers work just fine and the muzzle break and recoil compensators just reduce the recoil and/or climb.