Vampire Question

[cornholioprime]

How many times do you have to re-read the relevant sentence in the Post before yours before you see that that Quote EXPLICITLY includes Vampires?

How many times do you are re-read page 45, in Rifts Dark Conversions, on the specific undead to realize that neither of us is wrong on this matter?

YOUR assertion is that Holy Symbols work on all Undead except the Vampire -and that only the Holy Symbol known as the Cross works on that particular breed of Undead.

The assertion of VIRTUALLY EVERYONE ELSE WHO HAS PARTICIPATED IN THIS THREAD TO DATE is that Holy Symbols of ALL sorts affect ALL Undead.

YOUR assertion is backed by creative "grammatical re-interpretation" of the English Language and creative "visual re-interpretation" of Thor's Hammer as some sort of makeshift Cross.

And the available, actual evidence gathered thus far (there may be even more that has yet to be uncovered or re-discovered):

1. An article in Rifts: Dark Conversions that states unequivocally that ALL Undead can be kept at bay by ALL Holy Symbols ("Holy symbols can be used to hold all undead at bay.....being touched by a Holy Symbol causes burning pain..."), which further goes on to explain WHICH Undead can be affected to what extent by WHICH Vulnerabilities, including a side-by-side comparison with Vampires -paragraphs whose plainly-worded English you and only you, thus far, seem to be unable to understand.
2. A nearly identical article, using Kevin's infamous cut-and-paste methods, in Palladium RPG's Land of the Damned II: Eternal Torment -a Game Setting based on planet Palladium in another dimension, which puts forth the same information.
3. The information on the Amulets worn by the priests of Odin in Rifts Sourcebook: Pantheons of the Megaverse, which are described in plain English as deriving their power from being a Holy Symbol -yet another series of paragraphs that you and you alone seem to be unable to understand.
4. The Great Healing Fetish on page 88 of Rifts: Spirit West "...which will hold Vampires at bay the same as a Holy Symbol."
5. Ulric Highdeed, an Ogre Undead Slayer NPC from the book Land of the Damned II: Eternal Torment, whose primary melee weapon has a Holy Symbol embedded into the hilt "...which will keep Vampires at bay."

****************

So, to recap for anyone who doesn't want to go back to the beginning (and at this point in the Thread, they probably shouldn't):

I also have a question about crosses keeping vampires at bay. In old methos I can understand this to an extent because of the religious connotations of old world vampires. Rifts vampires are made by a Vampire Intelligence so it has nothing to do with religion. So why does a cross work? If a cross works because it's a religious symbol shouldn't any religious symbol work? Especially if it's the faith behind the symbol that works against them.

The available evidence thus far indicates that ALL Holy Symbols can hold ALL Undead at bay, including the undead sub-type known as the Palladium Vampire. Furthermore, the context of the Opening Post clearly indicated that the questioner as asking for official, canon information, not individual methods of House-Ruled game play.

What specific evidence do you, Emperor Ryu, have to the contrary?

And again, nobody is wrong on this discussion....

Sorry, you don't get to use that dodge as the easy way out.
At SOME point, when a statement or declaration is so grossly devoid of solid information, logic, or proof, the tired use of some variation of "let's just agree to disagree" doesn't stick.

One doesn't get shown a bunch of photos of Earth from the Space Shuttle and from orbiting satellites, stubbornly declare "I still say that the Earth is FLAT!!" and then try to dodge out of their patently incorrect conclusion by saying "well, between those of us who believe the Earth to be round or those of us who believe it to be flat, nobody was wrong here and we just interpret the available data in different ways."

[Subjugator]

Ah, but it's covered that in the reference of Rifts Dark Conversions that it generalizes "holy symbols". Hence the crucifix is included in this generalization. According to World Book 1, the cross is the only holy symbol to affect "and damage" vampires.

THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

You are adding the word ONLY! It does not belong! It's not in the text. Not ANYWHERE. It is the only one MENTIONED in World Book 1, but it is not mentioned with exclusivity. It's just the only one given. At least one other is given that will hold them at bay in the same book and another in a later book works exactly as such.

After adding to the original text by including the word (or meaning of the word) 'only' you then move to adding the word 'because'...specifically, that Thor's hammer has the effect it does because it is in the shape of the cross. I agree that Thor's hammer has all of the powers against vampires that the cross does (and more), but I am noting that it all of these powers in its own right, and it would have those powers if it was in the shape of a toaster.

Lastly, you are treating the cross as having exclusive access when Dark Conversions explicitly says that ALL undead are affected by holy symbols by causing damage to them when they are touched by them.

You say this is exclusive of vampires. That is incorrect. The vampire is not presented in those pages because it's already in Vampire Kingdoms. Grammatically, that cannot in any way be construed to mean that vampires are excluded from the information contained below that. It merely states that the stat block for vampires is not provided.

Evidence for this?

It notes blessed water and its effects against all undead, and then notes that vampires are specifically different (Aha! Vampires are explicitly pointed out when they differ from the standard in the same block of text!). It then notes that holy symbols can hold all undead at bay and then notes that touching undead with a holy symbol does damage to them as well.

AHA! No exception for vampires!

It then notes that sunlight does damage to vampires.

AHA! The exception for vampires is listed again!

It then goes on to note that when a description, "...says M.D. weapons or magic do '"normal" or "full damage," it means, when dealing with the undead and vampires, that the M.D. does the equivalent of S.D.C. and Hit Point damage to them." Just a little note for you with your objection to Thor's hammer doing M.D. to vampires when I said that they did damage to the hit points.

It goes on to describe feeding habits.

AHA! Vampires are given as the exception again!

It describes killing methods.

AHA! Vampires are given as the exception again!

So...every single other time in that text block where vampires are exceptional to the situation, it is noted. However, you're saying that this one time they are not, because...well, because Ryu doesn't like it.

Meaning that the holy symbol must specify that it affects them. Thor's Hammer is described "can be used like a cross" in reference to World Book 1, where the cross is known to be described and explained in all the Rifts books, having the affects and damages on vampires. I can understand how and why you can perceive this as adding, but what I am trying to explain is, . . . it's already there.

You are adding to it because you say it is doing so because it is shaped like a cross.

BTW - Dark Conversions explicitly says that ALL undead are damaged by holy symbols. Vampire Kingdoms only says that the shadow of the cross does damage - not that ONLY the shadow of the cross does damage.

I'm going to stop posting in this thread already, and move along. I respect your interpretations and methods of game play, I can only ask in return that you do the same for other members of the forum and those who are not, but play the Rifts RPG so they can have fun. Take good cares. It's been nice discussion this subject matter with you. And again, nobody is wrong on this discussion, and there were misunderstandings in presenting arguments, unfortunately. I can only hope you and the few others here move along as well.

You're not respecting us. I've received numerous private messages and notes in other areas discussing your posts. The others that have mentioned them to me have effectively noted that your posts are all trolling in these circumstances.

So go ahead and post whatever you want, but I certainly hope you don't expect any of us to take this type of your post seriously. They lack substance and logic. They are empty of logic and honesty.

/Sub

[LostOne]

Unsubbing, already tired of the rules lawyer argument. In case anyone wanted to reply to my post.

[cornholioprime]

Unsubbing, already tired of the rules lawyer argument. In case anyone wanted to reply to my post.

Reply to which post, LostOne?

I don't see any of your other Posts anywhere else -could you please tell me which post that was?
(I searched the whole Thread but didn't find it).

[The Beast]

So... it states, in Thor's write-up, that a holy weapon, as in the base item class from PFRPG (e.g. Rune, Holy, Dragon Slayer, etc...) NOT Mjolnir specifically, can be used like a holy symbol? Or are you trying to say that Mjolnir is written as being capable of doing so, which I am not arguing as it clearly states that.

Under Mjolnir specifically, which is found in Thor's write-up.

[Prysus]

Unsubbing, already tired of the rules lawyer argument. In case anyone wanted to reply to my post.

Reply to which post, LostOne?

I don't see any of your other Posts anywhere else -could you please tell me which post that was?
(I searched the whole Thread but didn't find it).

I think he means this one ...

I'm not going to read all 4 pages to catch up, so I'll just give my opinion and maybe it adds to the discussion, maybe not.

In my games we don't just allow crosses. Any religious symbol is acceptable, but it isn't the symbol itself that causes the effect, it is the faith someone has in the symbol that reflects whatever higher power they believe in. If that faith is in a higher power that is a power for good, like God, Gaia, etc, it has a harmful effect on the vampire.

The vampire's belief could also play a part. If there is no one around, but the vampire was raised with religion and believed in it beforehand, then a religious symbol will still affect them.

No faith from someone in visual range (including the vampire), and that cross is just another piece of wood/metal to the vampire.

[cornholioprime]

Unsubbing, already tired of the rules lawyer argument. In case anyone wanted to reply to my post.

Reply to which post, LostOne?

I don't see any of your other Posts anywhere else -could you please tell me which post that was?
(I searched the whole Thread but didn't find it).

I think he means this one ...

I'm not going to read all 4 pages to catch up, so I'll just give my opinion and maybe it adds to the discussion, maybe not.

In my games we don't just allow crosses. Any religious symbol is acceptable, but it isn't the symbol itself that causes the effect, it is the faith someone has in the symbol that reflects whatever higher power they believe in. If that faith is in a higher power that is a power for good, like God, Gaia, etc, it has a harmful effect on the vampire.

The vampire's belief could also play a part. If there is no one around, but the vampire was raised with religion and believed in it beforehand, then a religious symbol will still affect them.

No faith from someone in visual range (including the vampire), and that cross is just another piece of wood/metal to the vampire.

Thankee, sai.

[Zer0 Kay]

How many times do you have to re-read the relevant sentence in the Post before yours before you see that that Quote EXPLICITLY includes Vampires?

How many times do you are re-read page 45, in Rifts Dark Conversions, on the specific undead to realize that neither of us is wrong on this matter?

YOUR assertion is that Holy Symbols work on all Undead except the Vampire -and that only the Holy Symbol known as the Cross works on that particular breed of Undead.

The assertion of VIRTUALLY EVERYONE ELSE WHO HAS PARTICIPATED IN THIS THREAD TO DATE is that Holy Symbols of ALL sorts affect ALL Undead.

YOUR assertion is backed by creative "grammatical re-interpretation" of the English Language and creative "visual re-interpretation" of Thor's Hammer as some sort of makeshift Cross.

And the available, actual evidence gathered thus far (there may be even more that has yet to be uncovered or re-discovered):

1. An article in Rifts: Dark Conversions that states unequivocally that ALL Undead can be kept at bay by ALL Holy Symbols ("Holy symbols can be used to hold all undead at bay.....being touched by a Holy Symbol causes burning pain..."), which further goes on to explain WHICH Undead can be affected to what extent by WHICH Vulnerabilities, including a side-by-side comparison with Vampires -paragraphs whose plainly-worded English you and only you, thus far, seem to be unable to understand.
2. A nearly identical article, using Kevin's infamous cut-and-paste methods, in Palladium RPG's Land of the Damned II: Eternal Torment -a Game Setting based on planet Palladium in another dimension, which puts forth the same information.
3. The information on the Amulets worn by the priests of Odin in Rifts Sourcebook: Pantheons of the Megaverse, which are described in plain English as deriving their power from being a Holy Symbol -yet another series of paragraphs that you and you alone seem to be unable to understand.
4. The Great Healing Fetish on page 88 of Rifts: Spirit West "...which will hold Vampires at bay the same as a Holy Symbol."
5. Ulric Highdeed, an Ogre Undead Slayer NPC from the book Land of the Damned II: Eternal Torment, whose primary melee weapon has a Holy Symbol embedded into the hilt "...which will keep Vampires at bay."

****************

So, to recap for anyone who doesn't want to go back to the beginning (and at this point in the Thread, they probably shouldn't):

I also have a question about crosses keeping vampires at bay. In old methos I can understand this to an extent because of the religious connotations of old world vampires. Rifts vampires are made by a Vampire Intelligence so it has nothing to do with religion. So why does a cross work? If a cross works because it's a religious symbol shouldn't any religious symbol work? Especially if it's the faith behind the symbol that works against them.

The available evidence thus far indicates that ALL Holy Symbols can hold ALL Undead at bay, including the undead sub-type known as the Palladium Vampire. Furthermore, the context of the Opening Post clearly indicated that the questioner as asking for official, canon information, not individual methods of House-Ruled game play.

What specific evidence do you, Emperor Ryu, have to the contrary?

And again, nobody is wrong on this discussion....

Sorry, you don't get to use that dodge as the easy way out.
At SOME point, when a statement or declaration is so grossly devoid of solid information, logic, or proof, the tired use of some variation of "let's just agree to disagree" doesn't stick.

One doesn't get shown a bunch of photos of Earth from the Space Shuttle and from orbiting satellites, stubbornly declare "I still say that the Earth is FLAT!!" and then try to dodge out of their patently incorrect conclusion by saying "well, between those of us who believe the Earth to be round or those of us who believe it to be flat, nobody was wrong here and we just interpret the available data in different ways."

I Assert that holy symbols also hold clowns at bay... except the holy symbol of the god Banjo (OOTS reference). Joke, joke

[Zer0 Kay]

So... it states, in Thor's write-up, that a holy weapon, as in the base item class from PFRPG (e.g. Rune, Holy, Dragon Slayer, etc...) NOT Mjolnir specifically, can be used like a holy symbol? Or are you trying to say that Mjolnir is written as being capable of doing so, which I am not arguing as it clearly states that.

Under Mjolnir specifically, which is found in Thor's write-up.

Right. I got that part (it's on page 150 btw). But it doesn't state that ALL holy weapons also act like Mjolnir but that Mjolnir, a holy weapon, ALSO acts as a holy symbol... specifically mentioning its use like a cross (it also states that it can only be used as such by Asgardian worshipers. Funny that last sentence though. Is it stating that Mjolnir or the amulets with the image of Mjolnir can be used as such? After all it ends with the "Asgardian worshipers" bit and I'm sure not many Asgardian worshipers can get their hands on Mjolnir. Hmm. Would Thor really need or even want to keep vamps at bay?

[Zer0 Kay]

So I wonder, if I have a crazy that worships a cheeseburger, is that then a holy symbol?

Funny. And even though your joking... I don't think so because there is no deific power behind it... unless there is also the plastic faced deity of burgers, worshiped by all carnivors.

[Killer Cyborg]

So I wonder, if I have a crazy that worships a cheeseburger, is that then a holy symbol?

Funny. And even though your joking... I don't think so because there is no deific power behind it... unless there is also the plastic faced deity of burgers, worshiped by all carnivors.

Mayor McCheese.

[The Beast]

So I wonder, if I have a crazy that worships a cheeseburger, is that then a holy symbol?

Funny. And even though your joking... I don't think so because there is no deific power behind it... unless there is also the plastic faced deity of burgers, worshiped by all carnivors.

Mayor McCheese.

He was killed in a holy war with the BK mascot...

[Johnathan]

Is... it just me...? Or has this thread achieved a point of ridiculouslness that most sane people would never be willing to entertain?

Of course... that's assuming ANYBODY here is... y'know... sane...

[Zer0 Kay]

So I wonder, if I have a crazy that worships a cheeseburger, is that then a holy symbol?

Funny. And even though your joking... I don't think so because there is no deific power behind it... unless there is also the plastic faced deity of burgers, worshiped by all carnivors.

Mayor McCheese.

No the King
The Mayor is just a high priest for the other burger deity.

[Zer0 Kay]

Is... it just me...? Or has this thread achieved a point of ridiculouslness that most sane people would never be willing to entertain?

Of course... that's assuming ANYBODY here is... y'know... sane...

What is this say-knee you speak of?

[Jorel]

So I wonder, if I have a crazy that worships a cheeseburger, is that then a holy symbol?

I missed this earlier as I had stepped off world for awhile. Not the burger or cheese, but a large portion of the current worlds population worships the.....drum roll.....cow. So a Mooby medallion, or amulet or the shadow of Mooby on a cross, okay maybe not the last, but a shadow of a cow definitely. What about Babe the Blue Ox, does that count?

[Zer0 Kay]

So I wonder, if I have a crazy that worships a cheeseburger, is that then a holy symbol?

I missed this earlier as I had stepped off world for awhile. Not the burger or cheese, but a large portion of the current worlds population worships the.....drum roll.....cow. So a Mooby medallion, or amulet or the shadow of Mooby on a cross, okay maybe not the last, but a shadow of a cow definitely. What about Babe the Blue Ox, does that count?

What is this... Mooby? Is it a cow that goes both ways or is it a cross between a cow and a bee?

[Jorel]

So I wonder, if I have a crazy that worships a cheeseburger, is that then a holy symbol?

I missed this earlier as I had stepped off world for awhile. Not the burger or cheese, but a large portion of the current worlds population worships the.....drum roll.....cow. So a Mooby medallion, or amulet or the shadow of Mooby on a cross, okay maybe not the last, but a shadow of a cow definitely. What about Babe the Blue Ox, does that count?

What is this... Mooby? Is it a cow that goes both ways or is it a cross between a cow and a bee?

From Kevin Smith's movie Dogma. It is like Mikey, only a Golden Cow. On that note, I wonder if Buddy Christ (also from that movie) works on undead.

[Zer0 Kay]

So I wonder, if I have a crazy that worships a cheeseburger, is that then a holy symbol?

I missed this earlier as I had stepped off world for awhile. Not the burger or cheese, but a large portion of the current worlds population worships the.....drum roll.....cow. So a Mooby medallion, or amulet or the shadow of Mooby on a cross, okay maybe not the last, but a shadow of a cow definitely. What about Babe the Blue Ox, does that count?

What is this... Mooby? Is it a cow that goes both ways or is it a cross between a cow and a bee?

From Kevin Smith's movie Dogma. It is like Mikey, only a Golden Cow. On that note, I wonder if Buddy Christ (also from that movie) works on undead.

I remember Buddy Christ. I didn't remember Mooby. I did Buddy Vader for a photo shoot. I have the expensive... and hot costume.

[The Beast]

So I wonder, if I have a crazy that worships a cheeseburger, is that then a holy symbol?

I missed this earlier as I had stepped off world for awhile. Not the burger or cheese, but a large portion of the current worlds population worships the.....drum roll.....cow. So a Mooby medallion, or amulet or the shadow of Mooby on a cross, okay maybe not the last, but a shadow of a cow definitely. What about Babe the Blue Ox, does that count?

No, but that one Egyptian god would.

[Zer0 Kay]

Page 33 of world book 1. This is from the book Magic especially useful against vampires- "Mega-damage energy, such as fireball, call lightning, wall of flame (like this thread) ,etc, inflicts half damage direct to hit points" and they cant be killed unless they are submerged in water, or exposed to sunlight, or staked in the heart and decapitated and then burned. So really the only reason to argue about what holey symbol does and does not work don't really matter. None of them can kill the vamps and none of then offer any advantages over the other. A guy I play with has a character who has a silver star of david. You just need to not get so bent about it. Its all up to the GM any way.

I already stated that I had found this information! Since I asked the question about which Holy symbols work then yes finding out which ones do and don't work matters.

I am not getting bent about it my point is I don't want to know what people do in their games I wanted to know canon. Yes if I am the GM I can make brownie mix hurt a vampire but that doesn't make it canon. Maybe you should read through the whole thread to find out why people are a little on edge.

Rules lawyering and trying to make scientific sense out of how Vampires work and trolling are the main reasons. If tyou look over some other threads ware some of thees guy's have posted you will see that it's all the same folks. Pudding and bbrownie mix are never mentioned in any of the books so as Kevin S. would say " use common sense" Now, pee is steril waste. Google it. It is drinkable on the first pass so there is your science. If the water had to be pure (not cannon) then thise on rifts earth would be S.O.L. because I would guess pure watter on rifts earth is hard to come by. So again clean or pure water is NOT cannon. RUNNING water is. As for holey symbols, My group is diverse and like to give P.C.'s a dieity to worship. It would go against common sense for a P.C. who is a muslem (not to mention scareligeous) for the P.C. to be wielding a cross. The way we do it is like this, the PC's faith IS what impowers the symbol. Faith makes it holey. Common sense.

Not to make things worse or more twisted but what if it actually has nothing to do with the religion or faith but the symbol itself? The PFRPG 1ed is affected by all holy symbols the Rifts vamp is specifically stated as the cross which many people in RE are non-religious so how does it work for all of them and it affects V.I.s and I'm pretty sure they were never Christian so how does that work if you have a non-Christian brandishing against a V.I.? So where is the common sense there? Now with the addition of Mjolnir that makes the conversation far more complicated... unless they are also vulnderable to the symbol of Mjolnir... after all Thor has been around a while maybe whatever cursed the V.I.s with that weekeness added that in too.

[Zer0 Kay]

So I wonder, if I have a crazy that worships a cheeseburger, is that then a holy symbol?

I missed this earlier as I had stepped off world for awhile. Not the burger or cheese, but a large portion of the current worlds population worships the.....drum roll.....cow. So a Mooby medallion, or amulet or the shadow of Mooby on a cross, okay maybe not the last, but a shadow of a cow definitely. What about Babe the Blue Ox, does that count?

No, but that one Egyptian god would.

Hathor or Nut?

[Jorel]

Wife say Nut is not, but Hathor is a cow, just not on SG-1.

[Zer0 Kay]

Wife say Nut is not, but Hathor is a cow, just not on SG-1.

Well the hyroglyphics I was looking at didn't have her as a cow either it just had her with cow horns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nut_(goddess)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor
Wife? She's an authority? Or just scholarly?

[Zer0 Kay]

Page 33 of world book 1. This is from the book Magic especially useful against vampires- "Mega-damage energy, such as fireball, call lightning, wall of flame (like this thread) ,etc, inflicts half damage direct to hit points" and they cant be killed unless they are submerged in water, or exposed to sunlight, or staked in the heart and decapitated and then burned. So really the only reason to argue about what holey symbol does and does not work don't really matter. None of them can kill the vamps and none of then offer any advantages over the other. A guy I play with has a character who has a silver star of david. You just need to not get so bent about it. Its all up to the GM any way.

I already stated that I had found this information! Since I asked the question about which Holy symbols work then yes finding out which ones do and don't work matters.

I am not getting bent about it my point is I don't want to know what people do in their games I wanted to know canon. Yes if I am the GM I can make brownie mix hurt a vampire but that doesn't make it canon. Maybe you should read through the whole thread to find out why people are a little on edge.

Rules lawyering and trying to make scientific sense out of how Vampires work and trolling are the main reasons. If tyou look over some other threads ware some of thees guy's have posted you will see that it's all the same folks. Pudding and bbrownie mix are never mentioned in any of the books so as Kevin S. would say " use common sense" Now, pee is steril waste. Google it. It is drinkable on the first pass so there is your science. If the water had to be pure (not cannon) then thise on rifts earth would be S.O.L. because I would guess pure watter on rifts earth is hard to come by. So again clean or pure water is NOT cannon. RUNNING water is. As for holey symbols, My group is diverse and like to give P.C.'s a dieity to worship. It would go against common sense for a P.C. who is a muslem (not to mention scareligeous) for the P.C. to be wielding a cross. The way we do it is like this, the PC's faith IS what impowers the symbol. Faith makes it holey. Common sense.

Not to make things worse or more twisted but what if it actually has nothing to do with the religion or faith but the symbol itself? The PFRPG 1ed is affected by all holy symbols the Rifts vamp is specifically stated as the cross which many people in RE are non-religious so how does it work for all of them and it affects V.I.s and I'm pretty sure they were never Christian so how does that work if you have a non-Christian brandishing against a V.I.? So where is the common sense there? Now with the addition of Mjolnir that makes the conversation far more complicated... unless they are also vulnderable to the symbol of Mjolnir... after all Thor has been around a while maybe whatever cursed the V.I.s with that weekeness added that in too.

Darn, that just makes it more twisted. And from that, you could say (as the GM) that it is cannon that only the cross works period the end and play on. But, To my way of thinking haveing read the New West and seeing that they have the preacher O.C.C. that Religon does exist pretty strongly on Rifts earth. Heck, the Catholic Preist gets some attention in the War Lords of Russia So I guess you just have to go with what you feel is fair and right to you as the GM.

Yup

[Zer0 Kay]

Wife say Nut is not, but Hathor is a cow, just not on SG-1.

And none of the gods are what the myths say they are on SG-1. Heck the Asguards... I'd like to see their Thor lift Mjolnir, heck they didn't even have power armor to explain it as a possibility. Suprise they didn't try to hit up any other pantheons as a whole race.

[Mack]

Not to make things worse or more twisted but what if it actually has nothing to do with the religion or faith but the symbol itself?

As I read p27 of Vampire Kingdoms, that's exactly the case. The symbol works because the symbol works, not because it's connected to a religion.

[cornholioprime]

Not to make things worse or more twisted but what if it actually has nothing to do with the religion or faith but the symbol itself?

As I read p27 of Vampire Kingdoms, that's exactly the case. The symbol works because the symbol works, not because it's connected to a religion.

Those folks who don't believe what Mack is saying, then they just need to pop over to planet Palladium in another dimension.....

....where they've never even heard of Christianity, but their Priests of Light employ both Crosses and Holy Symbols in abundance.

[Subjugator]

BTW - to the asker, I note that the conversation pretty much came to a halt when I began asking him to clarify his position to illustrate where it is that we misunderstood.

/Sub

[Zer0 Kay]

Unsubbing, already tired of the rules lawyer argument. In case anyone wanted to reply to my post.

Reply to which post, LostOne?

I don't see any of your other Posts anywhere else -could you please tell me which post that was?
(I searched the whole Thread but didn't find it).

I think he means this one ...

I'm not going to read all 4 pages to catch up, so I'll just give my opinion and maybe it adds to the discussion, maybe not.

In my games we don't just allow crosses. Any religious symbol is acceptable, but it isn't the symbol itself that causes the effect, it is the faith someone has in the symbol that reflects whatever higher power they believe in. If that faith is in a higher power that is a power for good, like God, Gaia, etc, it has a harmful effect on the vampire.

The vampire's belief could also play a part. If there is no one around, but the vampire was raised with religion and believed in it beforehand, then a religious symbol will still affect them.

No faith from someone in visual range (including the vampire), and that cross is just another piece of wood/metal to the vampire.

Like the monsters in the book "I AM Legand" It was actuley the monsters belief that made vampire triks work on them.

Yeah... so that explains how all vampires are affected by the cross reguardless of what planet/dimension they are from and reguardless of prior religion or knowledge of old vampire lore.

[Tyranneix]

well I'll see your rules lawyering and raise you an it's up to the individual GM who's running a game with Vampires in it to decide the rules.

I think I win.

Nuff said..

[Killer Cyborg]

well I'll see your rules lawyering and raise you an it's up to the individual GM who's running a game with Vampires in it to decide the rules.

I think I win.

Nuff said..

You're incredibly mistaken.
All that individual GMs decide on is what the HOUSE rules are for that particular group.
And unless we're in a thread talking about house rules, it's pretty safe to assume that nobody cares about that.

[Tyranneix]

well I'll see your rules lawyering and raise you an it's up to the individual GM who's running a game with Vampires in it to decide the rules.

I think I win.

Nuff said..

You're incredibly mistaken.
All that individual GMs decide on is what the HOUSE rules are for that particular group.
And unless we're in a thread talking about house rules, it's pretty safe to assume that nobody cares about that.

Ahh but when it comes down to it I knew the answer had been given already.. I was really busting on obliteration of the dead horse that has been going on in this thread.

Ultimately yes there are 'canon' rules in print, but they are more like guidelines than rules. I dare you to find me one GM who runs a palladium game using 'canon' rules and no house rules..

That being said. Enjoy your ground-horse (you are not getting a nice horse steak anywhere from this thread). I may pop back in again when we are on 50 pages of stupidity to clean up there remaining horse guts at that time.

[Zer0 Kay]

well I'll see your rules lawyering and raise you an it's up to the individual GM who's running a game with Vampires in it to decide the rules.

I think I win.

Nuff said..

Ahh but I was looking for a canon answer not "You're the GM do what you want" I did get an answer several pages ago, not sure why the thread was resurrected X)

As I recall "You're the GM do what you want" IS a canon answer applicable to everything. Sucks that KS put that in his books so that lazy people that don't want to look up the "canon answer" can simply go with that.

[Zer0 Kay]

well I'll see your rules lawyering and raise you an it's up to the individual GM who's running a game with Vampires in it to decide the rules.

I think I win.

Nuff said..

You're incredibly mistaken.
All that individual GMs decide on is what the HOUSE rules are for that particular group.
And unless we're in a thread talking about house rules, it's pretty safe to assume that nobody cares about that.

Ahh but when it comes down to it I knew the answer had been given already.. I was really busting on obliteration of the dead horse that has been going on in this thread.

Ultimately yes there are 'canon' rules in print, but they are more like guidelines than rules. I dare you to find me one GM who runs a palladium game using 'canon' rules and no house rules..

That being said. Enjoy your ground-horse (you are not getting a nice horse steak anywhere from this thread). I may pop back in again when we are on 50 pages of stupidity to clean up there remaining horse guts at that time.

Hey... that would challenge "The Thread that never Ends" for most posts and I can't have that.

[Tyranneix]

well I'll see your rules lawyering and raise you an it's up to the individual GM who's running a game with Vampires in it to decide the rules.

I think I win.

Nuff said..

You're incredibly mistaken.
All that individual GMs decide on is what the HOUSE rules are for that particular group.
And unless we're in a thread talking about house rules, it's pretty safe to assume that nobody cares about that.

Ahh but when it comes down to it I knew the answer had been given already.. I was really busting on obliteration of the dead horse that has been going on in this thread.

Ultimately yes there are 'canon' rules in print, but they are more like guidelines than rules. I dare you to find me one GM who runs a palladium game using 'canon' rules and no house rules..

That being said. Enjoy your ground-horse (you are not getting a nice horse steak anywhere from this thread). I may pop back in again when we are on 50 pages of stupidity to clean up there remaining horse guts at that time.

Hey... that would challenge "The Thread that never Ends" for most posts and I can't have that.

And that my friend is why I like ya.. always ready to waste more people's time. Gotta love that!

[Damian Magecraft]

well I'll see your rules lawyering and raise you an it's up to the individual GM who's running a game with Vampires in it to decide the rules.

I think I win.

Nuff said..

Ahh but I was looking for a canon answer not "You're the GM do what you want" I did get an answer several pages ago, not sure why the thread was resurrected X)

As I recall "You're the GM do what you want" IS a canon answer applicable to everything. Sucks that KS put that in his books so that lazy people that don't want to look up the "canon answer" can simply go with that.

Yup. I agree 100%.

so every company that has ever placed "Rule zero" into their games are just catering to lazy players?

[Tyranneix]

It has nothing to do with lazy players or gamer masters. The system just isn't catered toward realism in the first place. Which is why people make new house rules to compensate for the game dev that chose not to do that and input the 'make your own rule's' rule in the first place. They like the setting, just not the rules. Don't knock everyone who has worked their collective butts off to make RIFTS a MUCH better game that it is off the shelf.

RIFTS is a game where quite literally ANYTHING can happen. Sometimes a good GM has to compensate for the devs lack of rules compensation for that very anything situation.

Sorry for the rant but I bust my butt to make my players enjoy this game. Nothing against you Damian, just kinda a sore spot for me, it's why I distaste rules lawyers and the reason for my post in the first place.

"<taps his pistol grip>Why Ed, what an ugly thing to say. I abhor ugliness... does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know, Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend, I just don't think I could bear it. <Draws both pistols in a flash, them then after a moment lays pistols down on the table and rests his hands on the guns>
There. Now we can be friends again." - Doc Holiday, Tombstone

And people wonder why I'm such a wild card.

[Damian Magecraft]

It has nothing to do with lazy players or gamers. The system just isn't catered toward realism. Hence why people make new house rules to compensate for the game dev that chose not to do that and input the rule in the first place. They like the setting, just not the rules. Don't knock everyone who has worked their collective butts off to make RIFTS a MUCH better game that it is off the shelf.

RIFTS is a game where quite literally ANYTHING can happen. Sometimes a good GM has to compensate for the devs lack of rules compensation for that anything.

Sorry for the rant but I bust my butt to make my players enjoy this game. Nothing against you Damian, just kinda a sore spot for me, it's why I distaste rules lawyers and the reason for my post in the first place.

"<taps his pistol grip>Why Ed, what an ugly thing to say. I abhor ugliness... does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know, Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend, I just don't think I could bear it. <Draws both pistols in a flash, them then after a moment lays pistols down on the table and rests his hands on the guns>
There. Now we can be friends again." - Doc Holiday, Tombstone

And people wonder why I'm such a wild card.

sorry there T.
My response was not directed towards you.
My comment was meant more for the shot taken (by others) at Kevins choice to place the comment "feel free to change what you do not like" in his books while completely ignoring the fact that every bleeding RPG in existence has some variation of that statement in their books.
I was trying to point out the absurdity of complaining about the existence "rule zero."

[Tyranneix]

It has nothing to do with lazy players or gamers. The system just isn't catered toward realism. Hence why people make new house rules to compensate for the game dev that chose not to do that and input the rule in the first place. They like the setting, just not the rules. Don't knock everyone who has worked their collective butts off to make RIFTS a MUCH better game that it is off the shelf.

RIFTS is a game where quite literally ANYTHING can happen. Sometimes a good GM has to compensate for the devs lack of rules compensation for that anything.

Sorry for the rant but I bust my butt to make my players enjoy this game. Nothing against you Damian, just kinda a sore spot for me, it's why I distaste rules lawyers and the reason for my post in the first place.

"<taps his pistol grip>Why Ed, what an ugly thing to say. I abhor ugliness... does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know, Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend, I just don't think I could bear it. <Draws both pistols in a flash, them then after a moment lays pistols down on the table and rests his hands on the guns>
There. Now we can be friends again." - Doc Holiday, Tombstone

And people wonder why I'm such a wild card.

sorry there T.
My response was not directed towards you.
My comment was meant more for the shot taken (by others) at Kevins choice to place the comment "feel free to change what you do not like" in his books while completely ignoring the fact that every bleeding RPG in existence has some variation of that statement in their books.
I was trying to point out the absurdity of complaining about the existence "rule zero."

No worries. Now we can be friends again!

honestly this whole conversation has gotten out of hand.. now I'm just bored and poking fun at people who take this WAY to seriously.. well that and increasing my post count so I can get a new title under my avatar.

[Zer0 Kay]

well I'll see your rules lawyering and raise you an it's up to the individual GM who's running a game with Vampires in it to decide the rules.

I think I win.

Nuff said..

Ahh but I was looking for a canon answer not "You're the GM do what you want" I did get an answer several pages ago, not sure why the thread was resurrected X)

As I recall "You're the GM do what you want" IS a canon answer applicable to everything. Sucks that KS put that in his books so that lazy people that don't want to look up the "canon answer" can simply go with that.

Yup. I agree 100%.

so every company that has ever placed "Rule zero" into their games are just catering to lazy players?

If rule zero is making "You're the GM the rules are guildelines" canon instead of an assumption as it always has been... yes.

[The Beast]

I dare you to find me one GM who runs a palladium game using 'canon' rules and no house rules..

When I first started playing my group played with no house rules, up until the first time I joined the Army. Upon my first ETS when we got back together we began incorperating different things, so we had to come up with house rules to cover them. So nowadays, I wouldn't play without house rules, unless it was just a quick H&S game or two. Even then, I think there's a few things we'd still house rule.

[Zer0 Kay]

It has nothing to do with lazy players or gamers. The system just isn't catered toward realism. Hence why people make new house rules to compensate for the game dev that chose not to do that and input the rule in the first place. They like the setting, just not the rules. Don't knock everyone who has worked their collective butts off to make RIFTS a MUCH better game that it is off the shelf.

RIFTS is a game where quite literally ANYTHING can happen. Sometimes a good GM has to compensate for the devs lack of rules compensation for that anything.

Sorry for the rant but I bust my butt to make my players enjoy this game. Nothing against you Damian, just kinda a sore spot for me, it's why I distaste rules lawyers and the reason for my post in the first place.

"<taps his pistol grip>Why Ed, what an ugly thing to say. I abhor ugliness... does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know, Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend, I just don't think I could bear it. <Draws both pistols in a flash, them then after a moment lays pistols down on the table and rests his hands on the guns>
There. Now we can be friends again." - Doc Holiday, Tombstone

And people wonder why I'm such a wild card.

sorry there T.
My response was not directed towards you.
My comment was meant more for the shot taken (by others) at Kevins choice to place the comment "feel free to change what you do not like" in his books while completely ignoring the fact that every bleeding RPG in existence has some variation of that statement in their books.
I was trying to point out the absurdity of complaining about the existence "rule zero."

3 things.
First I wasn't complaining
Second I'm one of those lazy players
Third lazy as defined by me is doing something right the first time so you won't have to do it later.

[Zer0 Kay]

It has nothing to do with lazy players or gamers. The system just isn't catered toward realism. Hence why people make new house rules to compensate for the game dev that chose not to do that and input the rule in the first place. They like the setting, just not the rules. Don't knock everyone who has worked their collective butts off to make RIFTS a MUCH better game that it is off the shelf.

RIFTS is a game where quite literally ANYTHING can happen. Sometimes a good GM has to compensate for the devs lack of rules compensation for that anything.

Sorry for the rant but I bust my butt to make my players enjoy this game. Nothing against you Damian, just kinda a sore spot for me, it's why I distaste rules lawyers and the reason for my post in the first place.

"<taps his pistol grip>Why Ed, what an ugly thing to say. I abhor ugliness... does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know, Ed, if I thought you weren't my friend, I just don't think I could bear it. <Draws both pistols in a flash, them then after a moment lays pistols down on the table and rests his hands on the guns>
There. Now we can be friends again." - Doc Holiday, Tombstone

And people wonder why I'm such a wild card.

sorry there T.
My response was not directed towards you.
My comment was meant more for the shot taken (by others) at Kevins choice to place the comment "feel free to change what you do not like" in his books while completely ignoring the fact that every bleeding RPG in existence has some variation of that statement in their books.
I was trying to point out the absurdity of complaining about the existence "rule zero."

No worries. Now we can be friends again!

honestly this whole conversation has gotten out of hand.. now I'm just bored and poking fun at people who take this WAY to seriously.. well that and increasing my post count so I can get a new title under my avatar.

Hey... oh wait your not talking to me. You commented on taking something seriously... yeah, I'd show up to a funeral in Bermuda Shorts and a bright Hawaiian T-shirt... in Alaska.

[Tyranneix]

I dare you to find me one GM who runs a palladium game using 'canon' rules and no house rules..

When I first started playing my group played with no house rules, up until the first time I joined the Army. Upon my first ETS when we got back together we began incorperating different things, so we had to come up with house rules to cover them. So nowadays, I wouldn't play without house rules, unless it was just a quick H&S game or two. Even then, I think there's a few things we'd still house rule.

You make my point exactly. Everyone reads the books and tries it but ultimately they change it to their whim.

Edit: ya know I had a really cool witty comparison for my remark that compared inexperience with overabundance of experience in certain areas.. then I remembered there are young impressionable minds in this forum.. soooo just use your imagination and you'll be right there. Maybe..

If this offends.. sorry.. just trying to make a point.

Hey... oh wait your not talking to me. You commented on taking something seriously... yeah, I'd show up to a funeral in Bermuda Shorts and a bright Hawaiian T-shirt... in Alaska.

Hey I'm game.. when and where and your supplying the drinks.

[Damian Magecraft]

I dare you to find me one GM who runs a palladium game using 'canon' rules and no house rules..

When I first started playing my group played with no house rules, up until the first time I joined the Army. Upon my first ETS when we got back together we began incorperating different things, so we had to come up with house rules to cover them. So nowadays, I wouldn't play without house rules, unless it was just a quick H&S game or two. Even then, I think there's a few things we'd still house rule.

My con games are pure pally no House Rules what so ever.

My personal games OTH...
Of course all my Home games of PB, WW, Gurps, FASA, D&D, WEG. FASERIP, and MEGS are house ruled to fit my style.

[Tyranneix]

I dare you to find me one GM who runs a palladium game using 'canon' rules and no house rules..

When I first started playing my group played with no house rules, up until the first time I joined the Army. Upon my first ETS when we got back together we began incorperating different things, so we had to come up with house rules to cover them. So nowadays, I wouldn't play without house rules, unless it was just a quick H&S game or two. Even then, I think there's a few things we'd still house rule.

My con games are pure pally no House Rules what so ever.

My personal games OTH...
Of course all my Home games of PB, WW, Gurps, FASA, D&D, WEG. FASERIP, and MEGS are house ruled to fit my style.

ok point made.. but which are more fun?

[Damian Magecraft]

I dare you to find me one GM who runs a palladium game using 'canon' rules and no house rules..

When I first started playing my group played with no house rules, up until the first time I joined the Army. Upon my first ETS when we got back together we began incorperating different things, so we had to come up with house rules to cover them. So nowadays, I wouldn't play without house rules, unless it was just a quick H&S game or two. Even then, I think there's a few things we'd still house rule.

My con games are pure pally no House Rules what so ever.

My personal games OTH...
Of course all my Home games of PB, WW, Gurps, FASA, D&D, WEG. FASERIP, and MEGS are house ruled to fit my style.

ok point made.. but which are more fun?

everyone who plays in my con games say they had fun.
everyone who plays in my home games says they had fun.
I have fun just running the games.

I honestly cannot say I had more fun running one over the other.

Although I do love getting PB "dissers" in my con games cause they always come out saying they never realized the game could be that much fun (or could run that smoothly).

[Tyranneix]

I dare you to find me one GM who runs a palladium game using 'canon' rules and no house rules..

When I first started playing my group played with no house rules, up until the first time I joined the Army. Upon my first ETS when we got back together we began incorperating different things, so we had to come up with house rules to cover them. So nowadays, I wouldn't play without house rules, unless it was just a quick H&S game or two. Even then, I think there's a few things we'd still house rule.

My con games are pure pally no House Rules what so ever.

My personal games OTH...
Of course all my Home games of PB, WW, Gurps, FASA, D&D, WEG. FASERIP, and MEGS are house ruled to fit my style.

ok point made.. but which are more fun?

everyone who plays in my con games say they had fun.
everyone who plays in my home games says they had fun.
I have fun just running the games.

I honestly cannot say I had more fun running one over the other.

Although I do love getting PB "dissers" in my con games cause they always come out saying they never realized the game could be that much fun (or could run that smoothly).

Sounds cool. wanna game sometime?

[sasha]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before but I was having a discussion about Rifts Vampires today and had questions. If a tiny little squirt gun can do 2D6 to a vampire what about me spitting on a vampire? I know this sounds stupid but saliva is over 90% water, and if we want to get technical so is urine. Blood is also made up of a high percentage of water with various sources stating anywhere from 80-98%. So if I urinate on a vampire does it damage him? If I throw tea, pop, kool-aid etc. at one does it do damage?

I would say it doesn't matter because a vampire is fast enough to avoid these attacks without even rolling dice.