Bringing Robotech through the Rifts

[keir451]

@Shadow logan; Actually the Ikazuchi's aren't all they're cracked up to be. Yes they can carry alot of troops and mecha but once they are grounded they're effecticely useles; their guns don't have the proper firing arcs to cover the ship even in space, much less on the ground. We saw their pathetic attempts at defense vs the Invid, now imagine the highly experienced CS ground AND Air forces swarming a grounded Ike. Game over man.
The CS has more DHTs and Firestorms than a group of 4 downed Ikes can deal w/, and the Garfish aren't much better honestlywith only a single multi barreled laser turret and some missiles, the Horizont has absolutely NO built in defenses.
The DHT can carry two Mk V w/ 20 soldiers ea., 2UAR-1 and a Spider Skull walker (that's enough to really hurt an REF defensive line) and nearly as much as a Garfish (384 soldiers if there are no other units on board). Now if I only put Robots in a DHT I can conceivably equal a Horizont's mecha carrying capacity, or at least come close to it.
Now admitedly the Ikazuchi carries 4-6 MTA Titans, as well 4 Horizon-T's, 10-24 AAT-40s, and 10-24 AAT-30's, but the CS had 12 Firestorms by the time of War Camapigns publishing (with another 12 being prepped and tested for combat duty and another 6 under construction) and an innumerable number of DHT (their army IS still over a million strong) and a variety of APCs (MK V, MK IX, Death Bringers, GB transports, etc.). The REF has ONLY the Titans and Horizon-Ts and the AAT series of vehicles, that and the Firestorm has more MDC than a Titan. Also a Firestorm's troop capacity ECXEEDS that of the Garfish, Horizon-T, and Titan COMBINED.
Honestly a Saber Cyclone even with missile car attached, does not compare to the total missile payload of a Striker SAMAS; The Striker has 8 in each arm (16 total), plus 6 in the chest and another 6 on the wings for a grand total of 28 vs the Sabers total of 21 (12 in the cyclone and 9 in the side car). The Cyclone weapons while having alot of damage capacity, don't have the payload to last for long periods of time; the EP-37 has a apyload of 10 shots (burst eat more shots) and the EP-40 has 30 shots, but against a C40-R payload of 3,000 rounds(75 bursts), a CTTP-40 payload of 40 shots, a Dead Man's railgun w/either 200 rnds for a short clip(10 bursts), a light drum of 600 rnds(30 busts), or the 2,000 rnd drum(100 bursts)
That and the CS has millions of SAMAS and hover bikes vs a few thousand Cyclones in each Ike.
Yes the "Protoculture chip" may be a stumbling block, but if the CS can't use it they can (and will ) find another way around it or they'l just discard it and make their own.
I do agree that if the REF has the time (read distance from the CS) they can and will develop their own variants using a combo of Rifts Earth tech and their own. However if they land too close to the Cs they're pretty much screwed.
As for AIs, the GMP bot is desrcibed as being slow and realtively stupid, not even a match for a single Skelebot w/ a Deadmans railgun. The old RDF Lancer and Ghost fighters were not replicated within the REF (at least as far as the books go) and Janice is a one of a kind android that was built/re-built with the help of the Haydonites.
As for Cyborgs, Yes they're mentioned in the SC anime, but as there is nothing for them in the books we can only say that they (effectively) don't exist, or we just use the rules from Rifts. Dusty was made by the Invid ALONE, his type was (as far as we know) never replicated again and not really known to the REF at large.
While it is possible for the occasional soldier to change their mind, I did say a TRUE CS soldier, that means someone who believes in the CS whole heartedly, a died in the wool CS patriot like Gen. Holmes or Gen. Cabot.

[Zer0 Kay]

@Shadow logan; Actually the Ikazuchi's aren't all they're cracked up to be. Yes they can carry alot of troops and mecha but once they are grounded they're effecticely useles; their guns don't have the proper firing arcs to cover the ship even in space, much less on the ground. We saw their pathetic attempts at defense vs the Invid, now imagine the highly experienced CS ground AND Air forces swarming a grounded Ike. Game over man.
The CS has more DHTs and Firestorms than a group of 4 downed Ikes can deal w/, and the Garfish aren't much better honestlywith only a single multi barreled laser turret and some missiles, the Horizont has absolutely NO built in defenses.
The DHT can carry two Mk V w/ 20 soldiers ea., 2UAR-1 and a Spider Skull walker (that's enough to really hurt an REF defensive line) and nearly as much as a Garfish (384 soldiers if there are no other units on board). Now if I only put Robots in a DHT I can conceivably equal a Horizont's mecha carrying capacity, or at least come close to it.
Now admitedly the Ikazuchi carries 4-6 MTA Titans, as well 4 Horizon-T's, 10-24 AAT-40s, and 10-24 AAT-30's, but the CS had 12 Firestorms by the time of War Camapigns publishing (with another 12 being prepped and tested for combat duty and another 6 under construction) and an innumerable number of DHT (their army IS still over a million strong) and a variety of APCs (MK V, MK IX, Death Bringers, GB transports, etc.). The REF has ONLY the Titans and Horizon-Ts and the AAT series of vehicles, that and the Firestorm has more MDC than a Titan. Also a Firestorm's troop capacity ECXEEDS that of the Garfish, Horizon-T, and Titan COMBINED.
Honestly a Saber Cyclone even with missile car attached, does not compare to the total missile payload of a Striker SAMAS; The Striker has 8 in each arm (16 total), plus 6 in the chest and another 6 on the wings for a grand total of 28 vs the Sabers total of 21 (12 in the cyclone and 9 in the side car). The Cyclone weapons while having alot of damage capacity, don't have the payload to last for long periods of time; the EP-37 has a apyload of 10 shots (burst eat more shots) and the EP-40 has 30 shots, but against a C40-R payload of 3,000 rounds(75 bursts), a CTTP-40 payload of 40 shots, a Dead Man's railgun w/either 200 rnds for a short clip(10 bursts), a light drum of 600 rnds(30 busts), or the 2,000 rnd drum(100 bursts)
That and the CS has millions of SAMAS and hover bikes vs a few thousand Cyclones in each Ike.
Yes the "Protoculture chip" may be a stumbling block, but if the CS can't use it they can (and will ) find another way around it or they'l just discard it and make their own.
I do agree that if the REF has the time (read distance from the CS) they can and will develop their own variants using a combo of Rifts Earth tech and their own. However if they land too close to the Cs they're pretty much screwed.
As for AIs, the GMP bot is desrcibed as being slow and realtively stupid, not even a match for a single Skelebot w/ a Deadmans railgun. The old RDF Lancer and Ghost fighters were not replicated within the REF (at least as far as the books go) and Janice is a one of a kind android that was built/re-built with the help of the Haydonites.
As for Cyborgs, Yes they're mentioned in the SC anime, but as there is nothing for them in the books we can only say that they (effectively) don't exist, or we just use the rules from Rifts. Dusty was made by the Invid ALONE, his type was (as far as we know) never replicated again and not really known to the REF at large.
While it is possible for the occasional soldier to change their mind, I did say a TRUE CS soldier, that means someone who believes in the CS whole heartedly, a died in the wool CS patriot like Gen. Holmes or Gen. Cabot.

Yeah but if a few of those were replaced with Synchro Cannons...

Janice Em 1.0 Was NOT built with the help of the Haydonites. The REF didn't meet the Haydonites Sarna and Veidt until after they reached Tirol and started freeing the Sentinels. Janice Em was built by Doctor Emile Lang before the SDF-3 left the Solar System. She had been around long enough to become a singing parter for Minmei. Any ship that was on its way back to Earth was likely sent with Shadow Alphas and Betas.

[Tiree]

And there you have discrepancies between RPG 1.0, RPG 2.0, Novels, Comics, and Anime.

If I was going to even contemplate this to any sort of degree, I think we should establish a standardized set of information.

What information are we going to use: RPG 1.0, RPG 2.0, some sort of combination?
When were the ICC's sent back. Scott's attack fleet? Symphony of Light fleet? or Shadow Chronicles (after Haydonite betrayal)
What technology is available? Are the ICC's Shadow Equipped and Synchro Equipped? Are the Alpha's and Beta's?
Where are the ICC's being dropped?

I'd go personally with RPG 2.0, Symphony of Light (good reason to have them rifted), ICC's Shadow Equipped with Synchro cannon's along with Alpha's and Beta's.

I would also rift them to the west coast, probably where Silicon Valley is today. Then let the ships land in the water. I can't recall if they have only Pinpoint Barriers in the new edition or a full forcefield technology. With that, I think it would be a pretty powerful force to be reckoned with.

[Zer0 Kay]

And there you have discrepancies between RPG 1.0, RPG 2.0, Novels, Comics, and Anime.

If I was going to even contemplate this to any sort of degree, I think we should establish a standardized set of information.

What information are we going to use: RPG 1.0, RPG 2.0, some sort of combination?
When were the ICC's sent back. Scott's attack fleet? Symphony of Light fleet? or Shadow Chronicles (after Haydonite betrayal)
What technology is available? Are the ICC's Shadow Equipped and Synchro Equipped? Are the Alpha's and Beta's?
Where are the ICC's being dropped?

I'd go personally with RPG 2.0, Symphony of Light (good reason to have them rifted), ICC's Shadow Equipped with Synchro cannon's along with Alpha's and Beta's.

I would also rift them to the west coast, probably where Silicon Valley is today. Then let the ships land in the water. I can't recall if they have only Pinpoint Barriers in the new edition or a full forcefield technology. With that, I think it would be a pretty powerful force to be reckoned with.

RT one offers an EP-40 that does 4d6x20 with a full magazine burst upto 480
an EP-37 that does 1d4x10x20 with a full magazine burst 200-800!
and a Gallant that does 4d6x20 with a full magazine burst 80-480 from a SIDE ARM!

If all LRM launchers (Mecha, vehicles and ports on the Icky's) maxes at 1,543,680

With the LRMs and all weapons that have a range of 5miles or greater so it doesn't include the plethora (do you know what pleth... ) it maxes out at 1644120 with the energy weapons and other multi shot guns only firing once and all the missiles expended (there are 144 energy weapons on various mecha and vehicles and 18 cannons) So up to (reading if all hits max) 1187 DHTs downed @ 1800 miles, another 59 @ 40 miles, 2 @ 10 miles (from the 18 MACs), 12 @ 8 miles (the MACs, the Raidar X and the GMUs big gun), 15 @ 5 (all the above with the MACs particle guns) with the guns firing additional times for each range incriment (10mi, 8mi and 5mi). This totals 1281 DHTs at 5 miles with minimal shots fired but a rediculous full damage for all shots.

[Cybermancer]

Howdy, folks. I've done about 2 or 3 setups for a crossover campaign. I've got the bases, the orders, the interesting NPC's...Here's my problem though...I can never think of a way to get them brought over to Rifts Earth...It just seems to cliche for a set of like...3 or 4 Ikazuchi Command Carriers while on a patrol or doing a space fold just dissapear and crash on Rifts Earth. I'd like to see something that would just be absoluely epic.
So let me know what you guys would suggest to get 3 or 4 ICC's to end up on Rifts Earth, somewhere in what is today Western ND and want to stay (or are unable to leave). It would be a typical REF task force augmented by some Zentraedi (micronized with capabilities for making them full sized) and some RDF Mecha.

Humanity and the UEEF were in the business of colonizing other worlds. This is shown in that the Neutron S missiles were refitted Angel class colony vessels and there's an Ark Angel Class vessel partially constructed in Space Station Liberty during the Shadow Chronicles.

I suggest you have an actual colony mission come to Rifts Earth with a military escort fleet. The colony is going to be carrying colonists, probably many will have valuable expertise. There's a good bet that if it's a brand new colony then the vessel will be carrying everything needed to start up a complete infrastructure from the ground up. The colony vessel can be a ship dedicated to the role such as the Angel and Ark Angel class or a vessel refitted for the purpose. Candidates for refit include most the Zentraedi capital ships (such as the landing ships) or the old Tokugawa ships.

If you want to keep protoculture being the main fuel over the long term, then simply include a number of engineers and scientists who helped build the matrix that is lost on the SDF-3. First, this explains why the REF is scrambling to find the SDF-3. All experts on the process are either on board the SDF-3 with the matrix or disappeared with this colony mission. The engineers don't have to know the process for creating protoculture right away. They just have a head start to figuring it out given enough time. In the mean time, the supplies will be closely guarded and rationed.

If you plan to place them in North America, then you should ensure they have sufficient military assets to at least give the CS pause before engaging in hostilities. If they're outside the 50 year plan zone, so much the better.

[ShadowLogan]

@Keir451:
As brought up by another poster indirectly. Are we on the same page with source material? I've been using 2E for stats more in this situation than 1E (refering to it when 2E material I have does not cover it). 2E did change some things. I realize the OP never laid down which RT Ed, given the SLMH question likely doesn't have all of 2E. Also some aspects I am only looking at in individual comparisions (ie DHT vs Horizant/Garfish), not necessarily the scenerio.

I don't consider the CS as experienced as the REF when it comes to large scale warfare. If the CS draws upon historical experience, the REF outclasses them from Zentreadi history they have assimilated (all 500k years).

I would review Ep85, the REF Fleet was sucesfull in destroying individual Invid mecha with their big beam cannons.

The Ikazuchi's could take off to give them a better firing angle. Once in the air and sufficient altitude any large transport (DHT/Firestorm) would be totaled in short order once the target moves above the horizon. Early warning by advanced REF forces to warn the main base to launch the ship(s) to attack. Approaching by ground does not necessarily help either as the ship could still take off and execute bombardments (even near misses when they hit the ground have a splash effect in the show, something the RPG doesn't replicate). Airborne targets could also potentially be in trouble from near miss (again something from the show, not replicated by the RPG that is supposed to model the show).

Restoring flight capacity would make sense not just to provide a firing platform, but also to relocate should the situation arrise. The REF would know they don't have the resources for a protracted engagement, so could just deciede to relocate in the long term. ND I don't think provides for good manufacturing resources, so relocation makes the most sense if they arrive there and plan to setup shop somewhere on the planet.

And as I said earlier the CS might consider leaving them alone since they would act as a buffer against the Bugs (or maybe even Calgary). Much like they are reported to do with Lazlo (IINM), and they definatly do something similiar with the Shem vs Splogorth over on the East Coast.

The point in the AI list was that RT does have more than the 1 AI system you attributed to them, not to provide a vs match. The GMP bot was designed for a different mission set than a Skelebot. So a direct matchup doesn't make sense. A skelebot vs Alpha Drone (no RPG stats yet) doesn't make much sense either, since the Drone can keep its distance and chose not to close if its SRMs are exhasuted.

Also Janice's back story changed with 2E. In the TSC writeup it suggests the original Janice was built on Earth alone. That atleast opens the possibility the REF could mass produce the original. It also states that Janice in TSC was the second AI built by Lang to use the name, opening up the potential for more AI examples.

Dusty was a Invid Cyborg intended for overall topical look at Robotech, not for a specific Terran faction.

Since Terran RT Cyborgs are not stated in the RPG, but known to exist, we can not say which is better or worse. If we use the Rifts Rules then it's even.

[ShadowLogan]

Skip the Icky and go with a robotech factory or the SDF-3
With either one it had a fold malfunction and they appear below the ice shelf in the Arctic Circle. Injuries all around but no fatalities, some may be out of action for months but luckilly no deaths. For a long time they are just recovering and have no idea where they are because they are locked in the ice and the guys with the big ideas are unconcious or comatose. Enter the PCs.

I think the RFS might be a bit to big to land on Earth. Better to have it come out in deep space.

The SDF-3 certainly works. There are still foes they could bump into, though I don't recall off hand if any of the Rifts: UnderSeas factions operate that far north (or in the antarctic).

[keir451]

@Shadow Logan; I've been priamrily using 1E (it was more readily available at the time), but even with the "upgrades" in 2E, the REF barely equals the CS. I my case I'm assuming that the Ikes were crashed, as in not movable (that's what crashed means to me), so that removes their advantage. Yes some of the ships were succeeding with their beam cannons but the large majority were sucking very big wind vs the Invid.
Everyone seems to forget that the CS HAS been fighting since at least 12 P.A. when the FoM attacked them, and it is now 109 P.A. and they just finished beating Tolkeen with fairly minimal losses.
I agree that ND doesn't provide good manufacturing resources, but also the Ikes are not out fitted w/ full factories (unlike the SDF-3/4). They are very much like a modern Aircraft carrier, they will have some machine shops and electrical shops for basic repairs and maintenance, but anything else would require access to a Liberty Station class repair yard. So repairing the AG system (if they are damaged) will be virtually impossible. I honestly believe (as you seem to do) that they should land elsewhere in NA.
Any of the DHT class out class and out gun a Horizon-T, and the Garfish. In the area of troop transport capability ALL DHTs exceed the capacities of anything of Garfish class or lower. Also the CS can field MK V missile vehicles in (probably) sufficient numbers to down an Ikazuchi and definately a Garfish.

If we go by the concepts of the poster, he wants 4 Ikazuchi Command Carriers to crash onto Rifts Earth.
If these ships come thru the debris field they will be heavily damaged and IMMEDIATELY noticed by everyone with radar capabilities, if they "suddenly" fold into the atmosphere and slam into the Earth then they might even break their "spines" or keels as it were, rendering many system inoperable and would be picked up on seismic sensors. They would NOT be able to lift off again, ever.
These events would have the CS (and everyone else who saw it/detected it) sending scouting parties to check it out. The CS (I honestly believe) would NOT let such a group just sit up there untouched. At the very least the CS could sent infiltrators and intel agents to check it out, and upon discovering wha these ships really represented would stop at nothing to acquire them just for the potential tactical advantage they represent (space capability).

As for combat experience, realize that the REF has lost alot more people due to the constant warfare they've been waging, not tomention the losses of the fleet asets and Liberty Station. The apparent average age of their "veterans" is barely over 18. They've been busy writing the book on SPACE warfare for the past 20+ years and haven't spent alot of time dealing with GROUND warfare (something the CS excels at right now). The RDF personnel are either dead, retired, or too old to fight in main combat anymore (w/ a few exceptions), the REF has changed from their heavy duty, multi-role equipment of the RDF to the newer, less robust and more specialized equipment. The vast majority of their "soldiers" grew up in space and may have never even set foot on a planet and would (initially) unprepared for it, unlike the CS soldiers who grew up there.
The ships were (according to the series) down to 1 month of protoculture with no way to resupply outside of the SDF-3, so unless there is some Flower of Life miraculously growing on Rifts Earth, the REF are going to run out of supplies right quick. Even if the ships have full protoculture supplies, they are only good for 14 months (Shadow Chronicles, under the Ikazuchis description). Plus any FoL seeds in a P-cell CANNOT be used to generate more FoL.
Now let's look at the supernatural aspect of Rifts Earth; The REF has spent years fighting the Invid, in space, and have absolutely ZERO anti-supernatural defenses. Vampires and the other nasty supernatural beings of Rifts Earht are things of myth and legend to them. All it take for things to go really wrong is for a single Master Vampire to get aboard (easy peasy for one of them) and start turning high ranking officers and NCOs and then the REF are screwed.
On the subject of AIs, there's too much controversy surrounding Janice, but she is still "one of a kind" at this point and I do not think the rest of the REF knows enough about ther to be able to replicate her (as far as the anime, only Louis has her schematics on hand). And while the RDF/ REF has dabbled in the field of Artificial Intelligence, they (according to the complete LACK of info. on the subject) do not have anything that even comes close to the FASSAR series of skelebots, which are "dumb" AIs by CS standards.

[Zer0 Kay]

Skip the Icky and go with a robotech factory or the SDF-3
With either one it had a fold malfunction and they appear below the ice shelf in the Arctic Circle. Injuries all around but no fatalities, some may be out of action for months but luckilly no deaths. For a long time they are just recovering and have no idea where they are because they are locked in the ice and the guys with the big ideas are unconcious or comatose. Enter the PCs.

I think the RFS might be a bit to big to land on Earth. Better to have it come out in deep space.

The SDF-3 certainly works. There are still foes they could bump into, though I don't recall off hand if any of the Rifts: UnderSeas factions operate that far north (or in the antarctic).

? A RFS could defold under the ice cap and if no one survives then it is an unknown cave network as far as anyone is concerned.

[Aaryq]

All I know is 1E. I still haven't bought the new-fangled Robotech stuff yet. They're fairly small, which bothers me. That's my excuse...really, I'm so broke...well, I'll leave the dirty pun for later. After re-reading Sentinels and the vast amount of wisdom that you fin folks have provided, I might just put the SDF-3 down there.
Anyone have any sources for the colony ships?

[Zer0 Kay]

@Shadow Logan; I've been priamrily using 1E (it was more readily available at the time), but even with the "upgrades" in 2E, the REF barely equals the CS. I my case I'm assuming that the Ikes were crashed, as in not movable (that's what crashed means to me), so that removes their advantage. Yes some of the ships were succeeding with their beam cannons but the large majority were sucking very big wind vs the Invid.
Everyone seems to forget that the CS HAS been fighting since at least 12 P.A. when the FoM attacked them, and it is now 109 P.A. and they just finished beating Tolkeen with fairly minimal losses.
I agree that ND doesn't provide good manufacturing resources, but also the Ikes are not out fitted w/ full factories (unlike the SDF-3/4). They are very much like a modern Aircraft carrier, they will have some machine shops and electrical shops for basic repairs and maintenance, but anything else would require access to a Liberty Station class repair yard. So repairing the AG system (if they are damaged) will be virtually impossible. I honestly believe (as you seem to do) that they should land elsewhere in NA.
Any of the DHT class out class and out gun a Horizon-T, and the Garfish. In the area of troop transport capability ALL DHTs exceed the capacities of anything of Garfish class or lower. Also the CS can field MK V missile vehicles in (probably) sufficient numbers to down an Ikazuchi and definately a Garfish.

If we go by the concepts of the poster, he wants 4 Ikazuchi Command Carriers to crash onto Rifts Earth.
If these ships come thru the debris field they will be heavily damaged and IMMEDIATELY noticed by everyone with radar capabilities, if they "suddenly" fold into the atmosphere and slam into the Earth then they might even break their "spines" or keels as it were, rendering many system inoperable and would be picked up on seismic sensors. They would NOT be able to lift off again, ever.
These events would have the CS (and everyone else who saw it/detected it) sending scouting parties to check it out. The CS (I honestly believe) would NOT let such a group just sit up there untouched. At the very least the CS could sent infiltrators and intel agents to check it out, and upon discovering wha these ships really represented would stop at nothing to acquire them just for the potential tactical advantage they represent (space capability).

As for combat experience, realize that the REF has lost alot more people due to the constant warfare they've been waging, not tomention the losses of the fleet asets and Liberty Station. The apparent average age of their "veterans" is barely over 18. They've been busy writing the book on SPACE warfare for the past 20+ years and haven't spent alot of time dealing with GROUND warfare (something the CS excels at right now). The RDF personnel are either dead, retired, or too old to fight in main combat anymore (w/ a few exceptions), the REF has changed from their heavy duty, multi-role equipment of the RDF to the newer, less robust and more specialized equipment. The vast majority of their "soldiers" grew up in space and may have never even set foot on a planet and would (initially) unprepared for it, unlike the CS soldiers who grew up there.
The ships were (according to the series) down to 1 month of protoculture with no way to resupply outside of the SDF-3, so unless there is some Flower of Life miraculously growing on Rifts Earth, the REF are going to run out of supplies right quick. Even if the ships have full protoculture supplies, they are only good for 14 months (Shadow Chronicles, under the Ikazuchis description). Plus any FoL seeds in a P-cell CANNOT be used to generate more FoL.
Now let's look at the supernatural aspect of Rifts Earth; The REF has spent years fighting the Invid, in space, and have absolutely ZERO anti-supernatural defenses. Vampires and the other nasty supernatural beings of Rifts Earht are things of myth and legend to them. All it take for things to go really wrong is for a single Master Vampire to get aboard (easy peasy for one of them) and start turning high ranking officers and NCOs and then the REF are screwed.
On the subject of AIs, there's too much controversy surrounding Janice, but she is still "one of a kind" at this point and I do not think the rest of the REF knows enough about ther to be able to replicate her (as far as the anime, only Louis has her schematics on hand). And while the RDF/ REF has dabbled in the field of Artificial Intelligence, they (according to the complete LACK of info. on the subject) do not have anything that even comes close to the FASSAR series of skelebots, which are "dumb" AIs by CS standards.

45 Years. They've been fighting overwhelming odds for 45 years. 1st RT War against the Zentradi army
2nd RT War against the RT Masters and their torrent of clones
3rd RT War against an endless swarm of Invid and their Immortal Godlike All Mother
3rd RT War against an endless swarm of Invid and the manifest rage of their Immortal Godlike All Mother
4th RT War against an endless swarm of Haydonite robots manufactured on the planet Haydon IV which is actually Haydon a godlike being. Haydon is the Shadow and the Regis is the Light.

The RT Forces are accustomed to fighting rediculously overwhelming odds and pulling out victory in the end. Those "inexperienced" 18 year old pilots have likely had more kills than a veteran CS troop. I'd like to see the CS take on the Invid and win... oh wait they can't even take on the lesser forces of the Xiticix. And yeah I realize this is about only three Ichys but Macross was only about one SDF.

[keir451]

@Zer0 Kay; All that you've said is true to one extent or another. I do disagree with some of your conclusions.
The CS could deal with the Xiticix if they chose to, they do have the capability.
The only reason that the SDF-1 managed to survive was simply because Breetai was holding his full forces at bay most tof the time, that and they wanted the ship intact to get its protoculture matrix. Otherwise Khyron or Breetai would have just atomized the vessel and then continued on and then killed the planet.
Also while the RDF/REF has been fighting for 45 years, they have repeatedly been pushed to the absolute brink of total annihilation by their enemies(all of whom were vastly superior in many ways) and only survived due to sheer luck.
In the first RT war it was Breetai's restraint and then his defection that later helped the Earth forces claim the Factory and defeat Dolza. In the 2nd RT war the Southern Cross had already lost and tho' Zor killed the Masters in one ship he failed to prevent the FoL spores from spreading. At the time of the Invids arrival the human forces were completely shattered by her forces and humanity became enslaved.
In the final war against the Invid the REF WASTED three whole fleets that utterly failed to defeat the Invid or the Masters. When the last fleet finally shows up they were getting their buts royally handed to them and were about to destroy the very planet they had come to liberate until the REGIS decided to leave.
Now comes the really tricky part; Depending upon wether or not you follow the original anime line or the revised line of Shadow Chronicles, the REF fleet was either; A) totally destroyed (original anime) or B) left with no Protoculture and their damaged ships at Liberty station were decimated by the Haydonites(open to some interpretation admittedly).
No that's not "pulling victory out in the end", that's having enemies spare your life because they choose to. "Pulling victory out in the end" is the Russians of WW 2 sacrificing hundreds of thousands of men to push the Germans back to their own doorstep and remove their ability to fight AND claim half their country.
Where as the CS' ancestors were steadily fighting against truly impossible odds to reclaim just a bit of breathing space so they could begin to restore a semblance of civilization for the past (Rifts time) 200 plus years. Their descendants (the CS) have continued the fight and have established a beach head against the darkness and are well on their way to restoring (in their minds) the lost glory of the "Golden Age". By that standard the CS (and othe people of Rifts Earth) have had the longer and harder fight and are all the tougher for it. The CS has people like Gen. Holmes, Gen. Cabot, Gen. Kashbrook and others at their side as well as a very diverse and powerful military with a ready supply of volunteers.
And while there are veterans in the REF after the assault on Relex point and the Haydonite treachery they're much fewer in numbers and don't have the experience of fighting the kinds of foes the CS fights.

By my estmation IF the CS and the REF were to fight each other in a ground war the CS would win, in a Space war the REF would initially have the upper hand but (IMO) at the rate which the CS progress technologically speaking they would catch up to and possibly surpass the REF.
In this case 4 Ikes have less than no chance of fighting the CS off unless their ships are fully fueled and in orbit. On the ground, damaged and running out of supplies they're just dog meat.

[MikelAmroni]

Let's be honest, the spaceships would be able to be mobile, but not overly. They would have the same issues getting off planet anyone else would, but they would be able to relocate if their position was comprimised. And they would not go against the CS, they would retreat and use the superior mobility of their garfish and Horizon-T's to gather resources. Smart money would be on something like the artic circle, or some forgotten wasteland (anywhere in Northern Canada not near a ley line, once they understood what that meant, would be a good place as well).

The UEEF would wage a war of propoganda, and probably be approached by Archie, in the guise of Titan Robotics, who would offer deep discounts, and help them integrate their technology into Rifts Earth norms, while maintaining their edge. He would, of course, install observation units, like he does in all his units. He would then try and use the UEEF to replace, subtely and peacefully (for the most part) the CS. Given a choice between a life on a war footing, compared with peaceful communities protected by high speed veritech patrols (with cyclone equipped local cops), but who accept both human and D-Bee as long as they are lawful, would be a tempting change of pace for the majority of humanity. And let's face it, the UEEF would still be rather human-centric, and would probably give the D-bee's land so they could live among themselves quietly, rather than forcing them and humanity to co-exist in small compressed communities. You'd have individuals making choices against the norm, and the situation would be untenable in the long run, but it would be a good short term move (one that Archie would suggest, given his human-second [himself first] policies in general).

By the time the CS could track them down, they would be in a well dug in position where they could way-lay a CS column for days with hit and run tactics (with some nice heavy guns at extreme ranges). By the time a major offensive force could get into position (and I don't consider a dozen DHT's with their forces a major offensive all their own, though it would make for a nice opening round by the CS), the UEEF should be able to retaliate. And lets face it, pick up and move the core of their manufacturing capability (since they'd make pains to make sure it was built inside the ICCs, just so they could relocate it). Sure they'd need to set up supply lines, but in the end, the CS would have commited a major force, been left with no target to attack, and would have to retreat. The UEEF command would have no reason to get into a knock down drag out with the CS. They'd rather win the hearts and minds war. Not saying they wouldn't use spec ops against each other (a lot), but not full scale war. In short, perfect for adventuring, not a full scale shooting war. And given how mobile Archie can be, they'd get support pretty quickly, since Archie would build his own spaceships, exact clones of UEEF stuff, with shadow tech, in order to move materials and his own forces. He'd be able to get the UEEF back up and running pretty quickly.

But Archie makes a much better puppet master behind the rise of a UEEF colony than Northern Gun, Atlantis, or even themselves. He could even create a whole new robotics line to interact with the UEEF (and if the Haydonite betrayal hasn't happened in the history of the UEEF forces, they wouldn't even think twice).

[keir451]

@MikelAmroni; Now that's an original idea that could be very interesting. The only thing that I, personally, do differently is; when I "crash" a starship, it is crashed and ain't goin' nowhere for a very, very, long time (if ever). But that is simply because I feel that having mobile starships on Rifts Earth is too much, too overpowering. It means, as you said, the can pick up and leave at any time. I'd even say they'd have an easier time getting out past the debris field once they're aware of it, so they could leave the planet if they so whished. There's no reason for them to stay and fight or even to stay and help the people who've settled near them. But again that's only what I, personally, think and would do.

[Zer0 Kay]

Let's be honest, the spaceships would be able to be mobile, but not overly. They would have the same issues getting off planet anyone else would, but they would be able to relocate if their position was comprimised. And they would not go against the CS, they would retreat and use the superior mobility of their garfish and Horizon-T's to gather resources. Smart money would be on something like the artic circle, or some forgotten wasteland (anywhere in Northern Canada not near a ley line, once they understood what that meant, would be a good place as well).

The UEEF would wage a war of propoganda, and probably be approached by Archie, in the guise of Titan Robotics, who would offer deep discounts, and help them integrate their technology into Rifts Earth norms, while maintaining their edge. He would, of course, install observation units, like he does in all his units. He would then try and use the UEEF to replace, subtely and peacefully (for the most part) the CS. Given a choice between a life on a war footing, compared with peaceful communities protected by high speed veritech patrols (with cyclone equipped local cops), but who accept both human and D-Bee as long as they are lawful, would be a tempting change of pace for the majority of humanity. And let's face it, the UEEF would still be rather human-centric, and would probably give the D-bee's land so they could live among themselves quietly, rather than forcing them and humanity to co-exist in small compressed communities. You'd have individuals making choices against the norm, and the situation would be untenable in the long run, but it would be a good short term move (one that Archie would suggest, given his human-second [himself first] policies in general).

By the time the CS could track them down, they would be in a well dug in position where they could way-lay a CS column for days with hit and run tactics (with some nice heavy guns at extreme ranges). By the time a major offensive force could get into position (and I don't consider a dozen DHT's with their forces a major offensive all their own, though it would make for a nice opening round by the CS), the UEEF should be able to retaliate. And lets face it, pick up and move the core of their manufacturing capability (since they'd make pains to make sure it was built inside the ICCs, just so they could relocate it). Sure they'd need to set up supply lines, but in the end, the CS would have commited a major force, been left with no target to attack, and would have to retreat. The UEEF command would have no reason to get into a knock down drag out with the CS. They'd rather win the hearts and minds war. Not saying they wouldn't use spec ops against each other (a lot), but not full scale war. In short, perfect for adventuring, not a full scale shooting war. And given how mobile Archie can be, they'd get support pretty quickly, since Archie would build his own spaceships, exact clones of UEEF stuff, with shadow tech, in order to move materials and his own forces. He'd be able to get the UEEF back up and running pretty quickly.

But Archie makes a much better puppet master behind the rise of a UEEF colony than Northern Gun, Atlantis, or even themselves. He could even create a whole new robotics line to interact with the UEEF (and if the Haydonite betrayal hasn't happened in the history of the UEEF forces, they wouldn't even think twice).

Unless of course those D-Bees are hot... in which case they get married to them and have children, first a blonde poofy haird girl and then an anime pink haird girl... oh wait that is just the Sterlings.

Besides they don't have the same problem getting into space. Their sensors are able to tell what is up there and can target them. The Ikeys' Main cannons can also be used to create a window by "spraying" an area.

[Zer0 Kay]

Let's be honest, the spaceships would be able to be mobile, but not overly. They would have the same issues getting off planet anyone else would, but they would be able to relocate if their position was comprimised. And they would not go against the CS, they would retreat and use the superior mobility of their garfish and Horizon-T's to gather resources. Smart money would be on something like the artic circle, or some forgotten wasteland (anywhere in Northern Canada not near a ley line, once they understood what that meant, would be a good place as well).

The UEEF would wage a war of propoganda, and probably be approached by Archie, in the guise of Titan Robotics, who would offer deep discounts, and help them integrate their technology into Rifts Earth norms, while maintaining their edge. He would, of course, install observation units, like he does in all his units. He would then try and use the UEEF to replace, subtely and peacefully (for the most part) the CS. Given a choice between a life on a war footing, compared with peaceful communities protected by high speed veritech patrols (with cyclone equipped local cops), but who accept both human and D-Bee as long as they are lawful, would be a tempting change of pace for the majority of humanity. And let's face it, the UEEF would still be rather human-centric, and would probably give the D-bee's land so they could live among themselves quietly, rather than forcing them and humanity to co-exist in small compressed communities. You'd have individuals making choices against the norm, and the situation would be untenable in the long run, but it would be a good short term move (one that Archie would suggest, given his human-second [himself first] policies in general).

By the time the CS could track them down, they would be in a well dug in position where they could way-lay a CS column for days with hit and run tactics (with some nice heavy guns at extreme ranges). By the time a major offensive force could get into position (and I don't consider a dozen DHT's with their forces a major offensive all their own, though it would make for a nice opening round by the CS), the UEEF should be able to retaliate. And lets face it, pick up and move the core of their manufacturing capability (since they'd make pains to make sure it was built inside the ICCs, just so they could relocate it). Sure they'd need to set up supply lines, but in the end, the CS would have commited a major force, been left with no target to attack, and would have to retreat. The UEEF command would have no reason to get into a knock down drag out with the CS. They'd rather win the hearts and minds war. Not saying they wouldn't use spec ops against each other (a lot), but not full scale war. In short, perfect for adventuring, not a full scale shooting war. And given how mobile Archie can be, they'd get support pretty quickly, since Archie would build his own spaceships, exact clones of UEEF stuff, with shadow tech, in order to move materials and his own forces. He'd be able to get the UEEF back up and running pretty quickly.

But Archie makes a much better puppet master behind the rise of a UEEF colony than Northern Gun, Atlantis, or even themselves. He could even create a whole new robotics line to interact with the UEEF (and if the Haydonite betrayal hasn't happened in the history of the UEEF forces, they wouldn't even think twice).

Even if the Haydonite Betrayal happened... it isn't like the RT forces hold a grudge as a whole. There are people like Edwards and the General from SC. But the bulk seems to be fairly if not overly understanding or "resonable". They would understand that robots are automata and just like a computer is based on the programming of the maker. So they'd want to meet the robots maker, before accepting them. They'd want to see them manufactured. Think of how interesting that would be. ARCHIE decides that it is a resonable risk to allow the UEEF scientist to go to his factory and after seeing that everything he has done is for the "good of humanity" (from select records) since his creation. Then the UEEF becomes allies with ARCHIE allowing him access to all of their technology. ARCHIE starts building it, Titan robotics slowly fading away as he no longer needs it as eyes and ears slowly restoring small groups of NEMA troops telling them that the Earth is just now recovering from monster hordes and inhuman humans rampaging across the Globe and now they are needed to aid with the return of civilization and the reestablishment of the NorAm Empire. He will introduce the UEEF as humans from another dimension that want to restore Earth for the good of the masses. Basically ARCHIE doesn't have to hide from the UEEF because, as Dark Helmet aptly put it, "good is stupid", especially in the case of the UEEF and their apparent policy that all aliens are friendly until proven otherwise and even then it may just be a missunderstanding.

This brings up another point any evil being that is capable of getting information on the UEEF would be able to manipulate them into allies. If the Splynncryth was able to meet them and convince them that he was friendly the gullable (aka understanding and resonable) UEEF would accept him, no matter how slimey.

[Zer0 Kay]

@Zer0 Kay; All that you've said is true to one extent or another. I do disagree with some of your conclusions.
The CS could deal with the Xiticix if they chose to, they do have the capability.
The only reason that the SDF-1 managed to survive was simply because Breetai was holding his full forces at bay most tof the time, that and they wanted the ship intact to get its protoculture matrix. Otherwise Khyron or Breetai would have just atomized the vessel and then continued on and then killed the planet.
Also while the RDF/REF has been fighting for 45 years, they have repeatedly been pushed to the absolute brink of total annihilation by their enemies(all of whom were vastly superior in many ways) and only survived due to sheer luck.
In the first RT war it was Breetai's restraint and then his defection that later helped the Earth forces claim the Factory and defeat Dolza. In the 2nd RT war the Southern Cross had already lost and tho' Zor killed the Masters in one ship he failed to prevent the FoL spores from spreading. At the time of the Invids arrival the human forces were completely shattered by her forces and humanity became enslaved.
In the final war against the Invid the REF WASTED three whole fleets that utterly failed to defeat the Invid or the Masters. When the last fleet finally shows up they were getting their buts royally handed to them and were about to destroy the very planet they had come to liberate until the REGIS decided to leave.
Now comes the really tricky part; Depending upon wether or not you follow the original anime line or the revised line of Shadow Chronicles, the REF fleet was either; A) totally destroyed (original anime) or B) left with no Protoculture and their damaged ships at Liberty station were decimated by the Haydonites(open to some interpretation admittedly).
No that's not "pulling victory out in the end", that's having enemies spare your life because they choose to. "Pulling victory out in the end" is the Russians of WW 2 sacrificing hundreds of thousands of men to push the Germans back to their own doorstep and remove their ability to fight AND claim half their country.
Where as the CS' ancestors were steadily fighting against truly impossible odds to reclaim just a bit of breathing space so they could begin to restore a semblance of civilization for the past (Rifts time) 200 plus years. Their descendants (the CS) have continued the fight and have established a beach head against the darkness and are well on their way to restoring (in their minds) the lost glory of the "Golden Age". By that standard the CS (and othe people of Rifts Earth) have had the longer and harder fight and are all the tougher for it. The CS has people like Gen. Holmes, Gen. Cabot, Gen. Kashbrook and others at their side as well as a very diverse and powerful military with a ready supply of volunteers.
And while there are veterans in the REF after the assault on Relex point and the Haydonite treachery they're much fewer in numbers and don't have the experience of fighting the kinds of foes the CS fights.

By my estmation IF the CS and the REF were to fight each other in a ground war the CS would win, in a Space war the REF would initially have the upper hand but (IMO) at the rate which the CS progress technologically speaking they would catch up to and possibly surpass the REF.
In this case 4 Ikes have less than no chance of fighting the CS off unless their ships are fully fueled and in orbit. On the ground, damaged and running out of supplies they're just dog meat.

Sorry I was classifying victory as getting what you want and pulling it out in the end as in the face of utter destruction still acheiving it.

[keir451]

@Zer0 Kay; All that you've said is true to one extent or another. I do disagree with some of your conclusions.
The CS could deal with the Xiticix if they chose to, they do have the capability.
The only reason that the SDF-1 managed to survive was simply because Breetai was holding his full forces at bay most tof the time, that and they wanted the ship intact to get its protoculture matrix. Otherwise Khyron or Breetai would have just atomized the vessel and then continued on and then killed the planet.
Also while the RDF/REF has been fighting for 45 years, they have repeatedly been pushed to the absolute brink of total annihilation by their enemies(all of whom were vastly superior in many ways) and only survived due to sheer luck.
In the first RT war it was Breetai's restraint and then his defection that later helped the Earth forces claim the Factory and defeat Dolza. In the 2nd RT war the Southern Cross had already lost and tho' Zor killed the Masters in one ship he failed to prevent the FoL spores from spreading. At the time of the Invids arrival the human forces were completely shattered by her forces and humanity became enslaved.
In the final war against the Invid the REF WASTED three whole fleets that utterly failed to defeat the Invid or the Masters. When the last fleet finally shows up they were getting their buts royally handed to them and were about to destroy the very planet they had come to liberate until the REGIS decided to leave.
Now comes the really tricky part; Depending upon wether or not you follow the original anime line or the revised line of Shadow Chronicles, the REF fleet was either; A) totally destroyed (original anime) or B) left with no Protoculture and their damaged ships at Liberty station were decimated by the Haydonites(open to some interpretation admittedly).
No that's not "pulling victory out in the end", that's having enemies spare your life because they choose to. "Pulling victory out in the end" is the Russians of WW 2 sacrificing hundreds of thousands of men to push the Germans back to their own doorstep and remove their ability to fight AND claim half their country.
Where as the CS' ancestors were steadily fighting against truly impossible odds to reclaim just a bit of breathing space so they could begin to restore a semblance of civilization for the past (Rifts time) 200 plus years. Their descendants (the CS) have continued the fight and have established a beach head against the darkness and are well on their way to restoring (in their minds) the lost glory of the "Golden Age". By that standard the CS (and othe people of Rifts Earth) have had the longer and harder fight and are all the tougher for it. The CS has people like Gen. Holmes, Gen. Cabot, Gen. Kashbrook and others at their side as well as a very diverse and powerful military with a ready supply of volunteers.
And while there are veterans in the REF after the assault on Relex point and the Haydonite treachery they're much fewer in numbers and don't have the experience of fighting the kinds of foes the CS fights.

By my estmation IF the CS and the REF were to fight each other in a ground war the CS would win, in a Space war the REF would initially have the upper hand but (IMO) at the rate which the CS progress technologically speaking they would catch up to and possibly surpass the REF.
In this case 4 Ikes have less than no chance of fighting the CS off unless their ships are fully fueled and in orbit. On the ground, damaged and running out of supplies they're just dog meat.

Sorry I was classifying victory as getting what you want and pulling it out in the end as in the face of utter destruction still acheiving it.

Yeah I can dig that.

[Tiree]

Would the CS even realize there are 4 ICC's with Shadow Cloaking devices hovering above them, if someone didn't spot them from the ground? Those same Shadow Cloaking devices could get them into orbit, and past the debris ring also.

To me, this scenario requires all the UEEF Mecha to be Shadow Cloaking equipped.

[ShadowLogan]

@Keir451:

I've been priamrily using 1E (it was more readily available at the time), but even with the "upgrades" in 2E, the REF barely equals the CS.

I think comparing stats directly is a bit impractical between the three editions going on (Rifts, RT-1E, RT-2E) because each represents a different stage in the evolution of the system. While the core mechanics have remained the same, there are some noticable differences: availablility of guided missiles, burst rules (S/L/F vs set), body armor MDC locations, starting skill percentage, piloting manuevers (absent in Rifts and RT 2E), etc. While some of the differences can be ingored, others I don't think can be.

Everyone seems to forget that the CS HAS been fighting since at least 12 P.A. when the FoM attacked them, and it is now 109 P.A. and they just finished beating Tolkeen with fairly minimal losses.

No I haven't forgetten that. I was considering the CS Xp going back all the way to GC. The Zentraedi are a part of the REF and they bring in loads of Experience, much more than the CS has. The CS has never had to wage a war against a large force of strictly advanced technological oppoents aside from FQ (a Draw) to my knowledge. The REF has more experience fighting a technological opponent on a large scale.

The CS ability to fight the SN or magic using forces does not necessarily translate toward fighting a technological based foe.

In the area of troop transport capability ALL DHTs exceed the capacities of anything of Garfish class or lower.

By Troop Transport, the Horizant outclasses the Original DHT, nearly the same as the DeathBringer (Horizant actually has more space in 1 bunker, go figure). The Garfish's troops are nearly a match for the DB by numbers, and the Skylifter depends on what is actually being carried, and forget about the original DHT. That is all by 1E RT, RMB/RUE and CWC.

By firepower the Garfish's main cannon (1E) outclasses anything the CS DHTs have in range and power (at max speed the original faster DHT has to sustain over 2minutes of fire which is enough to kill it or the newer slower DHTs), carries more MRMs, and the secondary laser outclasses the CS turrets (CS typically has more).

The Horizant mission is to get in drop troops and get out. Not to engage in combat. This I think shows another issue with direct comparissions, the hardware is typically designed for different mission sets.

By Speed the Horizant and Garfish outclass any DHT type.

If we go by the concepts of the poster, he wants 4 Ikazuchi Command Carriers to crash onto Rifts Earth

Well Crash has a very wide range to cover as far as damages go. It really depends on how extensive the damage is made out to be by the GM. And the OP did want to avoid cliches.

If the ships come in from space the Debris Ring isn't an issue I think because of the PPB on the Ikazuchi (SDF-3 has full shield). Plus I have a hard time seeing the REF landing voluntarily w/o some idea of what they are getting into on the planet. The Orbitals are not a real danger to them in my estimation. The Ikazuchi's Pin Point Barriers also nullify CS missile bombardment of the ship.

These events would have the CS (and everyone else who saw it/detected it) sending scouting parties to check it out.

Except that depends on how they arrive. Could be looking at a more stealthy arrival. The CS will also take time to organize a response, which gives the REF more time to get situated and execute repairs.

The CS will come under typical REF weapons fire before the CS can return fire, by 1E rightup. The REF could also have situated Mac3 bombs (357m blast area) to form part/all of a mine field (AM-1 or AM-2s included in the field) on their perimeter. CS airpower is typically slow compared to the RT airpower.

Some of the remaining issues appear to be situational with the scenerio (extent of crash, detection, etc) and have a wide range of setups. Either due to RPG lack of information, or the way the scenerio has been defined. Another is the source material in use, and how we personally rate the various game mechanic values (MDC, bonuses, Damage, Range) for a given platform.

Now let's look at the supernatural aspect of Rifts Earth;

Some aspects of the Supernatural they have encountered (Sentinels races by 1E rules). So they are not totally in the dark.

Though they are vulnerable to them. That is outside the OP's area of interest I believe.

[Kryzbyn]

Protoculture...
If i ran a Rifts RT crossover, I'd have them discover the flying along ley lines revitalizes the Protoculture and greatly increases its lifetime. Use the somewhat mystical nature of the protoculture in the players favor, as its rarity will not be.

[keir451]

@Shadow Logan:True the changes to the systems have made comparison difficult at best. That is part of the reason why I use the 1E RT standards on protoculture and the rest and only use the non-magic OCCs from RUE and ignore the rest.
I do this in part because the conversion info. for RT to Rifts was dropped from the revised Conversion book, so I only use the original Conversion book, and I don't like many of the new RUE rules vs original RPG.
As there's no current info on how many Zentraedi are still alive, I work on the premise that they've all been "bred out" so everyone in the REF is essentially human w/ little bit of Zent. thrown in. So there's no special exp./bonus from being a Zentraedi (unlike Macross 2).
The REFs main opponent for the past 20-30 yrs has been the Invid who aren't exactly a truly high tech society. Now I'm not saying they don't have any tech at all, it's just that their tech isn't the same as the REF's, they don't use radio comm., they don't use EW, or video transmissions, so that tech nically leaves the REF a bit out of practice in those areas.
The CS did fight against the Juicer Liberation Army which was a strictly technological opponent (for the most part) so they've learned their lesson in that respect. Plus the CS has 80+ more years of military history to draw upon, where as the REF has been constanly writing the book anew during every war.
Also some of the SN threats the CS fights also use tech to their advantage as well.

While the Horizon-T can technically can carry more than a DHT or a Death Bringer, they ARE out classed by the SKy Lifter and the Firestorm.
Also the Horizon-Ts rely solely on an Alpha/Beta combo for defense where as a DHT (and the others ) all have built in weapons sytems and are typically protected by CS Nightwings as well as SAMAS and Sky/Rocket cycles. So while the Alpha is engaged by the Nightwings the other forces can smack down the Horizon-T before it gets to land (much like the Invid did).
Yes most REF mecha is relatively faster than the CS gear, but in the instance of RE they would get shot down by weapons sattelites every time they try to go trans atmospheric, and that speed difference means that the CS fighters can turn and manuever better at slower speeds.
Yes the Garfish is faster than the DHTs, that only works if they're mobile.
I might say that the PPB system would be overloaded by the amount of debris impacting them esp. at orbital speeds plus the speed of the ship. Then the rest of the damage would be done to the exterior of the ship which may include any deployed weapon systems.
The CS has the capability with all it's DHT variants to airlift forces literally anywhere on the NA continent w/in a few hours if they choose to. So mobilizing to assault the REF (should they choose to) would take no more than a day at most. The CS could have scouts on station within mere minutes after the Ikes crash/land and can have the info back to CS high command within mere hours, long before the REF even knew the CS was there.

In the end tho' the issue of situation is paramount, how each of us may set it up will vary from GM to GM as will the books we use.

[Tiree]

@keir451 - Wouldn't the REF breeze through the Orbital Debris field with their shadow cloaks?

[ZINO]

@keir451 - Wouldn't the REF breeze through the Orbital Debris field with their shadow cloaks?

yes if you go by invid invasion data
no by rifts standards
yes if you go by both old and new books
no....... i am think on the forth one here

[Elthbert]

When I did this I had them land in Alaska. It is far enough away from all the major powerblocks and it I figured it would be a place the REF would want to land, the massive Grand Cannon complex was there. Assuming they didn't know exactly what was going on that would seem like the appropriate location to land. Since it would be obvious from orbit that the world was screwed they would not want to land too close to a population center, at least not if they were not stupid. They have hundreds of veritechs, they can get anywhere on Earth in force, in hours, so they landed in Alaska which has many advantages, and few disadvantages.

[ShadowLogan]

As there's no current info on how many Zentraedi are still alive, I work on the premise that they've all been "bred out" so everyone in the REF is essentially human w/ little bit of Zent. thrown in. So there's no special exp./bonus from being a Zentraedi (unlike Macross 2).

The specific numbers of Zentreadi aren't known in the animation (Scott suggests they might be gone), but going by the Sentinels RPG we would have an idea of the Zentreadi present on each Ikazuchi, it also places 30% of the overall REF as Zentreadi (in the REF Zent. Warrior OCC it is mentioned, though like Miryia they may not all be RZWs).

The REF would have access to the Zentreadi knowledge base. If we ignore historical knowledge then both the CS and REF would be limited to personal experiences.

The CS did fight against the Juicer Liberation Army which was a strictly technological opponent (for the most part) so they've learned their lesson in that respect.

I don't have JU (I can likely borrow a copy this weekend), how large was their army? And what type of equipment did they use? You also describe it as "for the most part" which leads me to believe it is not strictly technological.

While the Horizon-T can technically can carry more than a DHT or a Death Bringer, they ARE out classed by the SKy Lifter and the Firestorm.

Never did say they where better than a Firestrom or Sky Lifter specifically. Overall the REF ships outclass the overall CS DHTs in troop transport. There are individual matchups that don't follow this, but they are a minority. Of the 12 basic matchups, only 3 clearly go to the DHT with 1 being a toss up depending on the specific load of the DHT.

The H-T and DHT have some mission overlap (troop transport), but overall they have different mission roles. A DHT is intended to support those troops, something the stock H-T is not intended to do (it wants to get in and out to go get more as fast as possible). Given the H-T's superior speed, a DHT or its escorts will have trouble engaging them (cruise is Mach 2, Mach 6 for short bursts).

Yes most REF mecha is relatively faster than the CS gear, but in the instance of RE they would get shot down by weapons sattelites every time they try to go trans atmospheric, and that speed difference means that the CS fighters can turn and manuever better at slower speeds.

Being faster means they can choose to fight/flee/surrendor.

The CS platforms do not always get dodge bonuses that appraoch the VFs in Fighter mode (1E), but even then those usually do not kick in until above a certain speed (unlike the VFs where its flat for the mode). That suggests to me that RT VFs are more manueverable and not dependant on speed to dodge like non-robotic CS platforms. CS flying PA in flight are not much better/worse than a VT in this regard (unless the VT is in G/B).

I might say that the PPB system would be overloaded by the amount of debris impacting them esp. at orbital speeds plus the speed of the ship.

The problem is I don't think we know how much damage the CODF actually does in MiO. And the PPB regenerates all 5k MDC every 5sec, and has four of them. I don't recall seeing the regeneration rates for Rifts Force Fields being that potent (even in PW) with the books I have. While a PPB can be overloaded, we know of only one sure fire way (by the RPG rightup).

The Weapon Satellites typically have ranges that are less than an SRM, and/or be taken out by the other weapon emplacements on the ships. The Sats also require huge numbers to be effective against the PPB on a Ikazuchi.

If we use the RT tables for debris damage (Ghost Ship or ATP), each Ikazuchi would have to be hit by over 500 of the large sections doing maximum damage every 5sec just to taken down the PPB. The Smaller objects are possible (and more likely if IIRC the debris ring composition), but then you are looking at thousands of such peices striking in the same time frame. Other REF craft would need to follow in the wake. Applying the penalties to strike/detection would work both ways.

A mix of KS and CODF might be a danger, but we would need specific numbers to work with for every five seconds and determine how long the Ikazuchi is in the CODF.

The SDF-3 shield is another matter, it has more MDC than the PPB, but regenerates much slower. It's PPB is limited in coverage. The CODF and Sats are a danger, but the SDF-3 could always clear a path with a few reflex cannon shots. The Ikazuchi's main cannon might be able to do the same thing (scale wise would likely be smaller), but that would be a GM's call.

The CS has the capability with all it's DHT variants to airlift forces literally anywhere on the NA continent w/in a few hours if they choose to.

CWC puts it at w/n 48hrs for the Rapid Deployment Force. That suggests to me the bulk of the CS military is not as deployable as you suggest.

In the end tho' the issue of situation is paramount, how each of us may set it up will vary from GM to GM as will the books we use.[.quote]
This I agree with.

@keir451 - Wouldn't the REF breeze through the Orbital Debris field with their shadow cloaks

The Shadow Cloaks don't protect from CODF, they would likely help with the killer statellites. Essentially the CODF is like the Debris ring mentioned orbiting the Earth in the 1E RT RPG's sourcebooks (Ghostship and RDF ATP).

[Aaryq]

In an "alien" environment, wouldn't you think that the REF would introduce upgrades (like lasers or missile launchers) on the Horizont? I know that there are structural and electronic issues that they'd have to work through, but it shouldn't be too hard with a few engineers and technicians, right?

[ZINO]

@keir451 - Wouldn't the REF breeze through the Orbital Debris field with their shadow cloaks?

yes if you go by invid invasion data
no by rifts standards
yes if you go by both old and new books
no....... i am think on the forth one here

yes if you go by invid invasion data

well if you look at the shadow fighter and what the cartoon tell us well it will go right Thur like a stealth fighter

no by rifts standards

if you look at rift setting the answer would be NO!!! due to the fact of the counter orbital ring systems and the CAN republic will detect them ....some how

yes if you go by both old and new books

if you have both the old and new book well Yes you can but up to the GM

finally

no....... i am think on the forth one here

this was a bad joke and a copy infringement by harmony gold would not allow such a game setting to happen ....... just joking.....yeah right have fun

[Zer0 Kay]

Do to the Horizont what is done with C-130s eh? Turn it into a gunship. Except since the only real part of the Horizont that is a cargo carrier is the pods you could actually have several pod load outs. LRM missile Pods, MRM, SRM even have them so that the Horizont can do a fly by, drop the pod which deploys a shute so it lands "bottom" up with all the missile tubes facing up. A gun pod with mixed weapons for various uses (like the Spook or Spectre... which are normally just on one side because they circle the target). A up armored bunker with small suport weapons. Another up armored pod this one drops on its end and fixes itself to the ground making a tower. An AWACS pod, A bomb pod. A synchro pod with a few syncro cannons mounted out the side. The possibilities are endless and modifying the pods are a lot easier than modifying the ship.

[keir451]

@ Shadow Logan; The problem w/RT, never enough info in some cases. What is RZW?
Re: Juicer Liberation Army. I'm allowing for the occaisional Juicer w/a TW weapon insted of a regular one. I, too, don't have the book on hand so I don't recall how large the JL Army was, I was using them as an exmple of the CS having fought a Tech based opponent. Isn't there some reference to the CS helping Germany (traix 2?) vs the Gargoyles? (who are a bit of both tech and magic).
Yes overall the combined troop capacity of the REF ships does out class the DHT variants, my point was more that they allow the CS a high degree of troop transportation across a large battle field. The REF ship are not really designed to enter atmosphere. So even tho' they can do it and deploy equipment that way it's probably not a tactic employed very often.

Admittedly an H-T (love that one BTW!) is designed to just drop & go, but its lack of defenses make it a very vulnerable target, so if you can draw off the Alpha/Beta escort you CAN blow it out of the sky fairly easily. Where as it's much harder to do w/a DHT due to its built in weapon systems which can alos be used for its own defense. Once the H-T is on its approach vector changing that becomes kinda diffcult, the potential for the ship to tear itself apart (as happened in the begining of NG) seems too great.
Yes they can fight/flee/surrender, in the strict case of the post the mecha/troop complement of the Ikes is outmatched by the CS war machine. Between the CS fighters, bombers ( only a few as of CWC admittedly), their assault choppers (the REF doesn't have them, they use Alphas instead) the various types of PA and Large Robots, their Dog Boy troops, and their Skelebot Legions, their MK v & IX and Death Bringer APCS (and those variants) along w/ their DHTS means four Ikes would be in serious trouble.

Let me postulate a couple scenarios here; 1) the ships actually crash and are immovable and half their weapon systems are inoperable. The CS could deploy w/ in 48 hrs while the ships are still trying to sort out who's still alive and what they can do as well as where they are. That doesn't allow the REF much time to dig in at all.
Look at the speeds of the DHT variants, they can reach anywhere on the NA continent w/n a few hours, it would take no more than a day or two (the aforementioned 48 hrs) to load up troops and send them out. That is incredibly fast, even our Military can't do it that fast.
Scenario 2): The REF doesn't crash and the ships are still move able (tho' heavily damaged from the Haydonite assault), their PPB are inoperable, as are the shadow system and synchro cannon, trhey come out of an emergency fold in Rifts orbit and their velocity carries them thru the debris field. Tehy would suffer hull ruptures due to the debris and the Orbital Defense Systems (ODS) (the hull only has "X" mdc per 50-100 sq ft area, if I use that rule) meaning more damage and loss of life follwed by the potential crash landing. Again the inital 48hr period weighs in the CS' favor (shock, disorientation, etc.).
Scenario 3): The ships come thru intact and settle down in the Great Lakes to assess their situation, the CS either a) approaches them w/ the offer of an alliance (they can rip off the tech from behind their backs), the REF refuses and the CS mobilizes. The REF either fights (if several days have passed thru negotiations they know they can't really win) or runs away. Of course durng this time the Cs could have already been mobilizing and are already in a position to assault these "alien D-bees" w/ enough force to overwhelm their (the REF) defeneses and claim the equipment and tech for themselves.

For the damage value of the CODF understand that it basically shreds anything that goes thru it. Now admittedly the larger the object and the more MDC it has the greater the likely hood of it coming thru intact. This is one of those situations where Physics comes into play, you can claculate the speed of the debris field and multiply that by the mass of whatever object you think impacts and theres your MDC value (IMO).
While the PPB regens every 5 sec. it's being impacted by debris moving at orbital veocity every millisecond. IF we assume that is enough to shred anything going thru it then the PPB COULD be come overloaded and shut down. Now I also increase the damage from the Killer sats (kevins damge was too low IMO). And the PPB can only cover certain areas at a time individually or be lumped together in one location.

[Tiree]

Let me postulate a couple scenarios here; 1) the ships actually crash and are immovable and half their weapon systems are inoperable. The CS could deploy w/ in 48 hrs while the ships are still trying to sort out who's still alive and what they can do as well as where they are. That doesn't allow the REF much time to dig in at all.

This is questionable to me that the weapons systems would be inoperable, save that they were not in the right direction. It gives the REF the worst case scenario and the CS the best case scenario

Scenario 2): The REF doesn't crash and the ships are still move able (tho' heavily damaged from the Haydonite assault), their PPB are inoperable, as are the shadow system and synchro cannon, they come out of an emergency fold in Rifts orbit and their velocity carries them through the debris field. They would suffer hull ruptures due to the debris and the Orbital Defense Systems (ODS) (the hull only has "X" mdc per 50-100 sq ft area, if I use that rule) meaning more damage and loss of life followed by the potential crash landing. Again the initial 48hr period weighs in the CS' favor (shock, disorientation, etc.).

This one, I see as mostly improbable. Unless you have the ships from the Haydonite Treachery flee from Space Station Liberty. Which if I remember correctly only non-shadow technology survived. It is possible to have something not from the screen, probably after that battle. But more than likely the technology would be stripped from the ships at that point.

Scenario 3): The ships come through intact and settle down in the Great Lakes to assess their situation, the CS either a) approaches them w/ the offer of an alliance (they can rip off the tech from behind their backs), the REF refuses and the CS mobilizes. The REF either fights (if several days have passed through negotiations they know they can't really win) or runs away. Of course during this time the Cs could have already been mobilizing and are already in a position to assault these "alien D-bees" w/ enough force to overwhelm their (the REF) defenses and claim the equipment and tech for themselves.

This scenario is absurd in my mind. Because you then have the REF too willing to give their equipment, technology, and everything else to the CS. And you expect that the CS to rally other nations against this 'New Threat'

For the damage value of the CODF understand that it basically shreds anything that goes through it. Now admittedly the larger the object and the more MDC it has the greater the likely hood of it coming through intact. This is one of those situations where Physics comes into play, you can calculate the speed of the debris field and multiply that by the mass of whatever object you think impacts and there's your MDC value (IMO).
While the PPB regens every 5 sec. it's being impacted by debris moving at orbital velocity every millisecond. IF we assume that is enough to shred anything going through it then the PPB COULD be come overloaded and shut down. Now I also increase the damage from the Killer sats (Kevin's damage was too low IMO). And the PPB can only cover certain areas at a time individually or be lumped together in one location.

Lastly this is a little gem. The damage is upped for the Kill Sat's, and the belief that the CODF is really what is taking out starships from coming through the atmosphere. I would counter that all 4 full functioning PPB can be placed along one side of the ship, Front or Back to get through. Not to mention, why not go in the same direction as the CODF? - nullify that bit. If the Cloaking Devices are active, the PPB is active, I see no reason a ship can't go through.

I would postulate this as a Scenario - 4 ICC's pop up into orbit, their Fold Generators still work (why not - right? Somehow they just dimension jumped), the tech's believe there is a problem with the fold generators as the cause so they shut them down. They go through the CODF while the Shadow Device is active, breeze through the CODF and land in an area that they think is best. Alaska, Kennedy Space Center, Johnson Space Center, or Dryden Research Center. They stay away from any technological locations till they get a read on what is going on. Send some forces out in the area, protect the weak and innocent, and who knows maybe even befriend Cyberknights, Tundra Rangers, and Nemo.

They probably would not take on the CS (not for fear of them being too powerful, but more on the fact that the lives could be lost in the battle), they would try and bring a regime change through political and strategic strikes against the CS till it either crumbled or fell in line.

[ShadowLogan]

The problem w/RT, never enough info in some cases. What is RZW?

RZW=REF Zentreadi Warrior.

That there is never enough info is agreeable (I would even say that applies to Rifts). Though in areas that are lacking a direct comparision is out.

, too, don't have the book on hand so I don't recall how large the JL Army was, I was using them as an exmple of the CS having fought a Tech based opponent. Isn't there some reference to the CS helping Germany (traix 2?) vs the Gargoyles? (who are a bit of both tech and magic)

I do recall hearing about the CS vs Gargs in Germany, but the Gargs are not strictly a technological foe. I don't have Triax1&2 and am going off of what Rifts Resources I actually have.

I was flipping through CWC last night pg42 on the JU "Even during the Juicer Uprising, one of the largest military forces assembled in the last 20 years, it is believed that less than 30,000 men where involved on the side of the uprising. (note: The war was such that all numbers are estimated; exact figures are not known. At least half the forces were Juicers-perhaps as many as three-quaters)."

CWC also points out large scale numbers like this are rare on Rifts Earth on pg40, noted the CS is exception. Still that means the CS may know how to function at certain levels, but not much experience in dealing with forces of similiar size. I do not think that is the case for RT.

Admittedly an H-T (love that one BTW!) is designed to just drop & go, but its lack of defenses make it a very vulnerable target, so if you can draw off the Alpha/Beta escort you CAN blow it out of the sky fairly easily.

There is only a very narrow window for the CS forces to attack a H-T. It's cruise speed is listed as Mach 2, so the CS forces really could only target it during final landing phase when it slows down and uses VTOL. (going by the strike penalties for a moving target found in RMB/RT/RUE). I think the LZ would be chosen to minimize the risk of CS attack.

That the H-T should have its own armaments I don't argue with. One way the H-T w/bunkers could defend itself would require the Bunkers to be carrying Destroids (or Battloid mode VTs), pop open the hatches and you have instant door gunners (2-4 depending on how one interprets the writeup). Coverage would be limited, but the Raider X or Spartan with their long range attacks would be my choice for the role. Speed would be restricted in this case, I would think.

I've been avoiding using GM Mods (houserules, creations, etc). A simple quick one for the H-T results in a bomber version using Mac3 bombs (instead of the standard PB missile warhead w/bigger blast raidus): 150 per bunker AND/OR 13 in place of the Alpha/Beta by Mass. A carpet bomb and/or mid-air detonation would be devestating to CS forces within the 357m blast area of each bomb.

As far as flying in an atmosphere I'm not to sure about that, atleast from the animation perspective. The Old Timers Garfish seemed to handle fine given the shape it was in (this is prior to engagement of the Invid). The H-T, all we see is high altitude stuff. The Ik's we don't see at all in atmosphere, and they aren't any more aerodynamic than the DHTs IMO.

The RPG does state they (Garfish/Ik) are not designed for atmospheric flight, take-off/landing only (fly high enough and it won't matter about their aerodynamics). Still either can take off hover at high altitude and use its beam cannons to strike anything below it that is visible.

...along w/ their DHTS means four Ikes would be in serious trouble.

More from Resource availablity than superior technology.

Scenario 3):

Well there are far more scenerio setups to consider than just those 3. They also seem setup to place as big a handicap as possible on the REF.

You are also not considering what are the actions of the other players in the region the REF appears(FQ and Lazlo, maybe the UPs, Archie, etc)? While I am not inclinded to consider actions of individuals (like a SN/CoM being encountered), the actions of other large groups (organized city-state minimum) need to be considered.

This is one of those situations where Physics comes into play, you can claculate the speed of the debris field and multiply that by the mass of whatever object you think impacts and theres your MDC value (IMO).

Well I am looking at it from the RAW. Per the RT table there is a minimum size to cause MDC. Nor do I think there is a hard value for the density of the particles in the CODF in MiO, so no way to determine the actual damage.

Now I also increase the damage from the Killer sats (kevins damge was too low IMO).

This would be a GM Mod (house rule) and not RAW. Range is more of a problem with them as I see it. Weapon Damages have always been odd in the MDC system.

[keir451]

@Tiree; I was recently looking at the Crash table from Galaxy Guide, it is possible (depending upon the speed of the vessel) that if it hits a planet then it could be a total wreck or it could be (miraculously) intact. I was operating off of worst case scenario for the first idea.

2) Yes I was working under the idea of ships fleeing from Space Station Liberty and the Haydonite assault (sorry if I wasn't clear on that). It didn't seem completely improbable, I was opereating on the idea that those ships would have the most Protoculture reserves.

3) Not as absurd as four Ikes being able to survive a full CS onslaught (IMO). I never said the REF would agree, it was just a thought that the REF would be interested in ANY high tech civ. and the relative info they could provide. The CS has many more psychics then the REF (IIRC the Sentinel races worked from the SDF-3 and were not spread out thru the fleet) and some of them might have telemechanics or be Mil. Specs specializing in espionage, that's how the CS gets to rip off the tech for themselves(providing they can reverse engineer it at all). The reason I have the fold generators fried is because they're a Dimensional Fold system similar to what the Arkhons used and their drives were fried due to the dimensional effects surround Rifts Earth.
Yes all 4 PPb can be placed together, but only in a single location unlees you split it up as 2 in front and 3 in the back. I agree that going w/the flow of the CODF would lessen damage, but Waht if you don't have that option for whatever reason? Yes I upped the damage from the Satellites, KS' damage would barely scratch a GB. The only reason it works is because his ships have much lower MDC values (if they're MDC at all).
All in all that's not an u nlukely scenario just not one I'd use. REF forces in Rifts space trash all but the Arkhon, and starships on the surface is honestly too munchkin IMO. That's why I don't let them come thru intact.

[jaymz]

I think we are so off form teh OP it's not funny.

The OP wanted ideas how to bring in Robotech to Rifts as follows:

Not using the sterotypical on patrol/fold accident, they are to crash and they are to be i a relatively safe place relatively speaking allowing htem to settle and possibly become a moderate political player in NA.

As usual unfortunately the debate of Robotceh Verus CS (or insert major power here) has reared its head again

[keir451]

@Shadow Logan; Technically true, htting the H-T isn't easy but it's a drop shuttle, not a fighter. It, to, only has a small window of opportunity to change course once it commits to a drop run and the CS does have long range missiles capable of hitting, well, anything in their range (assuming the H-T is in range or the missile launchers are in the right position of course).

The JAL was about 10,000 strong according to JU. It more what the CS learned from fighting a primarily tech based opponent (and the perfidy of alien and D-bee scum).

The ships are stated as basically best at going straight up and down in atmosphere, yes they can still use their weapon systems to defend but still suffer the same penalties to hit small fast moving targets (-14 IIRC).
Yes the CS has alot of resources, the idea of higher tech (IMO) is that the CS is working off of tech that was already nearly 100 yrs (98 to be precise) of where the RDF started and still (again IMO) at least 60 years more advanced than where the REF is now. Yes the REF has space capability, but that only applies to the area of the starships and even w/ out the Protoculture the CS could reproduce their own variants of that tech if given enough time and access. And while some of the REF gear is faster in some areas (Alphas, Betas, H-T) the armor values are far, far lighter.

I guess I'm trying to point out that these Four Ikes would be dealing w/ the CS on the CS' home territory so (IMO) they'd have no real chance IF they land close to the CS.
The same can be said for the CS in RT. In the end either sides advantages (real or house ruled) would be negated by the other sides superior numbers.
In final, my opnion (to the OP) is that the GM should move the REF further away from the CS if he wants the REF to survive and carry out a "Cold War" against the CS.
I may try this scenario at next years open house for anyone who wants to help play it. Sorry for dragging things so far off topic.

[jaymz]

I personally think the best place to land would be mid michigan area near NG/MI. Odds are thats who'd they'd have first contact with adn they;d have a favourable contact I woudl think until teh CS decide to be thier normal selves. HOwever the REF MAY be able to sway NG/MI to help them instead of being the CS lackeys they have become. After all the CS damn well knows if they do anything to NG/MI the entire continent could come crashing down around them economically speaking. Not to mention Lazlo is nearby and won;t take kindly to CS incursions so close nor will New Lazlo. The CS woudl be wise to NOT do anythign stupid atthat point considering what they went thru with tolkeen alone. Imagine doing something that dumb and then having to face NG/MI, the REF and Lazlo/New Lazlo? Not a good idea and I think Karl is smarter than that. If no ther ethen anywhere else is really too far away to be of any consequence to anyone.

[keir451]

I personally think the best place to land would be mid michigan area near NG/MI. Odds are thats who'd they'd have first contact with adn they;d have a favourable contact I woudl think until teh CS decide to be thier normal selves. HOwever the REF MAY be able to sway NG/MI to help them instead of being the CS lackeys they have become. After all the CS damn well knows if they do anything to NG/MI the entire continent could come crashing down around them economically speaking. Not to mention Lazlo is nearby and won;t take kindly to CS incursions so close nor will New Lazlo. The CS woudl be wise to NOT do anythign stupid atthat point considering what they went thru with tolkeen alone. Imagine doing something that dumb and then having to face NG/MI, the REF and Lazlo/New Lazlo? Not a good idea and I think Karl is smarter than that. If no ther ethen anywhere else is really too far away to be of any consequence to anyone.

So basically the Upper Penninsula area, not a bad choice. Plenty of manufacturing to help them get started, and Karl may just decide to leave things be as this doesn't fit his 20 yr. plan.

[jaymz]

I personally think the best place to land would be mid michigan area near NG/MI. Odds are thats who'd they'd have first contact with adn they;d have a favourable contact I woudl think until teh CS decide to be thier normal selves. HOwever the REF MAY be able to sway NG/MI to help them instead of being the CS lackeys they have become. After all the CS damn well knows if they do anything to NG/MI the entire continent could come crashing down around them economically speaking. Not to mention Lazlo is nearby and won;t take kindly to CS incursions so close nor will New Lazlo. The CS woudl be wise to NOT do anythign stupid atthat point considering what they went thru with tolkeen alone. Imagine doing something that dumb and then having to face NG/MI, the REF and Lazlo/New Lazlo? Not a good idea and I think Karl is smarter than that. If no ther ethen anywhere else is really too far away to be of any consequence to anyone.

So basically the Upper Penninsula area, not a bad choice. Plenty of manufacturing to help them get started, and Karl may just decide to leave things be as this doesn't fit his 20 yr. plan.

NOt quite U.P but the Saginaw area maybe because IINM NG/MI are in teh parts of hte U.P. already. But yeah thats the idea. Karl isn;t dumb, he wouldn't try to oust them fromtheir for fear of the reprisals from teh neighboring nations. Better to leave sleeping dogs lie sometimes as he found out with FQ.

[jaymz]

NOt quite U.P but the Saginaw area maybe because IINM NG/MI are in the parts of the U.P. already. But yeah that's the idea. Karl isn't dumb, he wouldn't try to oust them from their for fear of the reprisals from the neighboring nations. Better to leave sleeping dogs lie sometimes as he found out with FQ.

I still don't see that Karl would look upon the new arrivals and think that if he let them stay he would be facing massive riots because people in the CS would not allow another DB force upon THEIR world. Yes they would have some protection from the CS landing there but its still not viable maybe in the northern Rockies yes but not that location to much going on already. Also yes we were kinda getting off topic about CS Vs. REF but you have to look at what will happen if it goes to a war. Remember maybe the PC's would like to see the war happen because they are DB and they don't want them there. Players do what they wish so you have to try to look at it from all angles but even then there is the left field idea the player has and you didn't see it and have to adjust things accordingly, that's how you do things you cant have the railroad track mindset of what you want to do but have the responsive to what the players want to do. So doing the CS Vs. REF is an important thing to consider in the whole situation your putting in.

It is important int eh long term but not for what the OP had originally wnated. Putting int eh northern Rockies puts them close ot Calgary so that a potential problem as well as dealing with the cyberhorsemen. Also too far for what the OP wanted. The mid/northern Michigan thing is doable. The CS populace wouldnt even know about the so called dbee invaders in north american unless Karl WANTS them to know and the REF may just be enough give the smaller nations like NG/MI hte confidence to thumb thier nose at the CS and do as they wish not as hte CS may dictate. FQ is proof and an experience Karl will have learned from and unless Karl is willing to commit his entire military to take on Lazlo, NG/MI New lazlo an all the mercs that will come to the aid of NG/MI then he will most likel yleave them be for now. The CS populace is kept ignorant in the events outside of thier nation, they'd never even know what crashed all that way away since all they gotta say is oh it was a meteor nothign to worry about hte and hte ignorant CS masses will go oh ok and go about thier daily lives.

You get teh effectiveness of a field army in robotech gear with ship artillery to support them combined with whatever military NG/MI has plus the mecs and Lazo/New Lazlo and the CS will be stalemated.

[ShadowLogan]

Technically true, htting the H-T isn't easy but it's a drop shuttle, not a fighter. It, to, only has a small window of opportunity to change course once it commits to a drop run and the CS does have long range missiles capable of hitting, well, anything in their range (assuming the H-T is in range or the missile launchers are in the right position of course).

I'm not sure about the course change thing except for Re-Entry. We never see an H-T performance in atmosphere in the show (normal flight operations, not re-entry). We also don't know if the Bunker's can be released while in motion (either as an airborne drop or closer to the ground), or how long it has to stop to release the bunkers.

The JAL was about 10,000 strong according to JU. It more what the CS learned from fighting a primarily tech based opponent (and the perfidy of alien and D-bee scum).

The scale given there would still be smaller than the 4 1E Iks or FQ for that matter. A couple of large conflicts does not make them proficient.

yes they can still use their weapon systems to defend but still suffer the same penalties to hit small fast moving targets (-14 IIRC).

I'm not sure if I would describe the CS ground forces as fast moving, they would be closer to stationary ground targets. The CS DHTs though would be the primary target I would think. A pentalty for small size would still exist, but I don't think it would be at -12 for objects under 42m on the ground. I think those penalties would only apply to erratically moving objects, if the cannons are fired before their forces mix it up, they would presumably be moving in a predicatable path.

Even near misses can have an effect. It could be used to herd the CS forces. It could provide distractions for the CS forces.

Yes the CS has alot of resources, the idea of higher tech (IMO) is that the CS is working off of tech that was already nearly 100 yrs (98 to be precise) of where the RDF started and still (again IMO) at least 60 years more advanced than where the REF is now.

And the RDF started researching technology that is 500k years old (from the show) in 1999. The technology then in RT-NG is not really a contemporary 203x-ish to 2098 on the Rifts timeline, but something different.

And while some of the REF gear is faster in some areas (Alphas, Betas, H-T) the armor values are far, far lighter.

The MDC values maybe lighter, but how efficient is the total value for the mass involved? I looked at TSC vs CWC, and RT tends to be more efficient compared to the majority of the CWC gear in this regard.

Now a problem is that in the MDC system there is no true scale or pattern to values (both give and take), other than the more personal it is the more you seem to get. Afterall Body Armor offers a lot of protection for its mass when compared to PA or other MDC structures.

I guess I'm trying to point out that these Four Ikes would be dealing w/ the CS on the CS' home territory so (IMO) they'd have no real chance IF they land close to the CS.

That they should not be brought in to close to the CS I think is a no-brainer. The real questions relating to the CS are:
-how close is to close?
-how complete is their monitoring of NA?
-what are the other powers doing in response to the CS actions?

Given Holmes actions in the SoT, FQ's "new" units, Archie 3, the location of FoM and Psyscape Cities, D-Shifting, Bandito Arms manufacturing site for their SAMAS models, etc it does not seem that the CS has as complete a picture of things as you would like them to have. So their arrival can go unnoticed for some time.

[keir451]

@Shadow Logan; true there is no info on the H-T working in atmo., so I consider it to be equivalent to a cargo plane-at some point in its approach there is no turning back. I do, however, think the pods can be dropped from higher up if need be.
Fast moving as in fighters vs starships combat rules, anything as small or smaller than a fighter is at plus to hit starships and starships are at a minus to hit them. Yes if the CS were en massed then the big guns could do alot of damage. Again the starships are the REF's main advantage, without them they're about as good as the SC armies.
Yes it could be used to herd people and Yes even near misses can have an effect.
If the REF has been researching tech that is 500k yrs old why is their tech not reflecting that?
Going by the New RT ed. RF tech is about equal w/ CS & Triax as far as weapons and armor.
If RT is more efficient then how come they don't have 1.5 ton PA units w/ 770 MDC and a railgun doing 3d6x10? While ther REF has an excellent grasp of their tech, they're STILL struggling to unlock ALL the secrets of Protoculture.
Yeah Body armor does have some pretty high values for its mass, but supposedly that's what happens with the advanced tech in Rifts.
How the CS notices the REF can depend on a variety of factors, i.e; how close do the ships land, geographically speaking? Detroit, NG, Ishpeming? Do they actually crash, as in hit the planet solidly? If they do that creates shock waves that the CS can pinpoint and investigate, thus leading them to finding the REF-after that- Who Knows. I have my ideas based upon how I see the CS and the REF, you have yours and etc.
Archie Three was a Top Secret military installion that was only a very few people knew of to begin with. So it's easy to see why his existance isn't public knowledge. FQ's new units fall under the heading of "Top Secret" too, just as the CS' new gear did too, sometimes doing things in secret works. However it's kinda hard to keep 4, 1/2 mile long starships, a secret on a world where they control less than the CS does. All it takes is some Black Market guy (or any joe for that matter) finding them and selling the info to the right CS officer (Underhill anyone?) or anyone else and ALL the major players would take an interest to varying degrees.

[keir451]

NOt quite U.P but the Saginaw area maybe because IINM NG/MI are in the parts of the U.P. already. But yeah that's the idea. Karl isn't dumb, he wouldn't try to oust them from their for fear of the reprisals from the neighboring nations. Better to leave sleeping dogs lie sometimes as he found out with FQ.

I still don't see that Karl would look upon the new arrivals and think that if he let them stay he would be facing massive riots because people in the CS would not allow another DB force upon THEIR world. Yes they would have some protection from the CS landing there but its still not viable maybe in the northern Rockies yes but not that location to much going on already. Also yes we were kinda getting off topic about CS Vs. REF but you have to look at what will happen if it goes to a war. Remember maybe the PC's would like to see the war happen because they are DB and they don't want them there. Players do what they wish so you have to try to look at it from all angles but even then there is the left field idea the player has and you didn't see it and have to adjust things accordingly, that's how you do things you cant have the railroad track mindset of what you want to do but have the responsive to what the players want to do. So doing the CS Vs. REF is an important thing to consider in the whole situation your putting in.

It is important int eh long term but not for what the OP had originally wnated. Putting int eh northern Rockies puts them close ot Calgary so that a potential problem as well as dealing with the cyberhorsemen. Also too far for what the OP wanted. The mid/northern Michigan thing is doable. The CS populace wouldnt even know about the so called dbee invaders in north american unless Karl WANTS them to know and the REF may just be enough give the smaller nations like NG/MI hte confidence to thumb thier nose at the CS and do as they wish not as hte CS may dictate. FQ is proof and an experience Karl will have learned from and unless Karl is willing to commit his entire military to take on Lazlo, NG/MI New lazlo an all the mercs that will come to the aid of NG/MI then he will most likel yleave them be for now. The CS populace is kept ignorant in the events outside of thier nation, they'd never even know what crashed all that way away since all they gotta say is oh it was a meteor nothign to worry about hte and hte ignorant CS masses will go oh ok and go about thier daily lives.

You get teh effectiveness of a field army in robotech gear with ship artillery to support them combined with whatever military NG/MI has plus the mecs and Lazo/New Lazlo and the CS will be stalemated.

That may be, but logically speaking the way the CS is written I CANNOT see them just leaving this group of REF alone. 1) They're D-bees!!!, 2) They possess technology that could be a danger to us, or technology that we could use to wipe out the damn D-bees and secure OUR homeland, 3) Tho' they LOOK like humans, who can really tell?, 4) Their culture is not the same as ours.
All these (in onr form or another ) have been reasons for people to war w/ one another, I don't see the CS being any different esp. considering the situation if Rifts Earth. If the REF landed in the mid to Northern Michigan region and they have the time to get the lay of the land, then Yes, it's workable.
I, however, do not agree. However I have wasted enough of this posters post trying to point out my justifications for my thoughts. That ends now, as I return to the original topic.

There are different ways to bring the REF to Rifts, unfortunately too many of them ARE cliched. I can only reccommend that you reconsider your choice of landing spot and move them farther west beyond the Rockies so theyt have time to figure things out. C'ya!

[Zer0 Kay]

NOt quite U.P but the Saginaw area maybe because IINM NG/MI are in the parts of the U.P. already. But yeah that's the idea. Karl isn't dumb, he wouldn't try to oust them from their for fear of the reprisals from the neighboring nations. Better to leave sleeping dogs lie sometimes as he found out with FQ.

I still don't see that Karl would look upon the new arrivals and think that if he let them stay he would be facing massive riots because people in the CS would not allow another DB force upon THEIR world. Yes they would have some protection from the CS landing there but its still not viable maybe in the northern Rockies yes but not that location to much going on already. Also yes we were kinda getting off topic about CS Vs. REF but you have to look at what will happen if it goes to a war. Remember maybe the PC's would like to see the war happen because they are DB and they don't want them there. Players do what they wish so you have to try to look at it from all angles but even then there is the left field idea the player has and you didn't see it and have to adjust things accordingly, that's how you do things you cant have the railroad track mindset of what you want to do but have the responsive to what the players want to do. So doing the CS Vs. REF is an important thing to consider in the whole situation your putting in.

It is important int eh long term but not for what the OP had originally wnated. Putting int eh northern Rockies puts them close ot Calgary so that a potential problem as well as dealing with the cyberhorsemen. Also too far for what the OP wanted. The mid/northern Michigan thing is doable. The CS populace wouldnt even know about the so called dbee invaders in north american unless Karl WANTS them to know and the REF may just be enough give the smaller nations like NG/MI hte confidence to thumb thier nose at the CS and do as they wish not as hte CS may dictate. FQ is proof and an experience Karl will have learned from and unless Karl is willing to commit his entire military to take on Lazlo, NG/MI New lazlo an all the mercs that will come to the aid of NG/MI then he will most likel yleave them be for now. The CS populace is kept ignorant in the events outside of thier nation, they'd never even know what crashed all that way away since all they gotta say is oh it was a meteor nothign to worry about hte and hte ignorant CS masses will go oh ok and go about thier daily lives.

You get teh effectiveness of a field army in robotech gear with ship artillery to support them combined with whatever military NG/MI has plus the mecs and Lazo/New Lazlo and the CS will be stalemated.

That may be, but logically speaking the way the CS is written I CANNOT see them just leaving this group of REF alone. 1) They're D-bees!!!, 2) They possess technology that could be a danger to us, or technology that we could use to wipe out the damn D-bees and secure OUR homeland, 3) Tho' they LOOK like humans, who can really tell?, 4) Their culture is not the same as ours.
All these (in onr form or another ) have been reasons for people to war w/ one another, I don't see the CS being any different esp. considering the situation if Rifts Earth. If the REF landed in the mid to Northern Michigan region and they have the time to get the lay of the land, then Yes, it's workable.
I, however, do not agree. However I have wasted enough of this posters post trying to point out my justifications for my thoughts. That ends now, as I return to the original topic.

There are different ways to bring the REF to Rifts, unfortunately too many of them ARE cliched. I can only reccommend that you reconsider your choice of landing spot and move them farther west beyond the Rockies so theyt have time to figure things out. C'ya!

Yeah because they are scouring the Earth of all D-Bees. Oh wait Lazlo, New Lazlo, The Vampire Kingdom and the freaking Xiticix are still in their backyard. I doubt they are going to take a war host to a remote crash site far outside their boarders when they aren't even dealing with known d-bee dangers within their boarders. Not to mention that their scouting party, if they use the standard CS fire first and ask questions later strategy for dealing with people you don't know, when met by the VF escort at long range from the ships, would be annihilated and even if video feed back was delivered the High Command would decide that without further intel they can't risk a full on assault. With them being out of the CS's boarders and not invading those boarders the CS would more than likely find them a threat to deal with at a later time.

[Zer0 Kay]

I got it the three Ickys were prototypes with shadow systems and when the Haydonites did the disruptor ray it did what all the other shadow systems did and overloaded the power source. That initiated the fold system and boomf they appeared below the CODF. Since they were in the line their engines were on standby and before they could get a fix on where they were they were only able to slow the descent a little. The ships have all received minor damage but are currently grounded for inspections they only have 75% of their fighter compliment the rest were outside of the fold field range.

[ShadowLogan]

@Keir451:

If the REF has been researching tech that is 500k yrs old why is their tech not reflecting that?

You expect them to unlock and master everything in a ~40year period?

I think their tech does reflect that. Already they have technology in areas that surpass GA (Space Travel), energy weapons (mecha ranges, Syncro damages), energy clips (Protoculture Clips deliver 100s of shots), in some areas efficient MDC materials, access to fast growing cloning technology (re-sizing process is done by cloning), forcefields (large scale albiet), forcefield disrupters.

If RT is more efficient then how come they don't have 1.5 ton PA units w/ 770 MDC and a railgun doing 3d6x10?

2E RT Cyclones have a MDC/kg ratio of 3.1-4.8 depending on the Model (1E has 11.4 -38LT, 6.8 -052/041), compared to the GB's (USA-G10 model) 2.5 (the best GB suit I've seen is 2.7, most are less than 2.5).

In both RT editions I think it clearly comes down to need for weapon or platform with the given (game) performance. The role the Glitterboy fills I think is handled not by PA like the Cyclones, but by a Destroid or the VHT.

As for damages (in 2E), the GU-11/AAC-11/M-227/M-996 are more efficient per individual element used (by round vs BG submunition) even though they do less damage overall (10 min, 20/60 maximum). Then you have the VHT-1's big cannons: 105mm Shells can be selected for similiar damage, the Particle replacement does more. So why go with a less efficient rail gun?

Neither range nor payload are part of the criteria you laid out. Range does apply in some cases, but then RT does have superior ranges available for less damage. Payload depends on the weapon, but generally goes to the BG (adjusting payload for method used to get the damage). So it's a trade off of efficient damage delivery vs payload vs range vs required energy.

Archie Three was a Top Secret military installion that was only a very few people knew of to begin with. So it's easy to see why his existance isn't public knowledge. FQ's new units fall under the heading of "Top Secret" too, just as the CS' new gear did too, sometimes doing things in secret works. However it's kinda hard to keep 4, 1/2 mile long starships, a secret on a world where they control less than the CS does.

I realize that Archie and FQ operations are secret, but that is the point. If one is trying to keep a secret on Rifts Earth from the CS it is possible. I do not see the REF (or other RT factions) arriving on Rifts Earth and advertising their arrival right away, instead they keep a low profile while they take stock of the situation.

It would be easier to keep a secret if they end up in the middle of open wilderness. Which makes their discovery and/or information being sold taking longer. I also have a hard time seeing the CS sending out a full field army (or more) to investigate some sesmic distrubance of a presumed crash site(s).

[Zer0 Kay]

@Keir451:

If the REF has been researching tech that is 500k yrs old why is their tech not reflecting that?

You expect them to unlock and master everything in a ~40year period?

I think their tech does reflect that. Already they have technology in areas that surpass GA (Space Travel), energy weapons (mecha ranges, Syncro damages), energy clips (Protoculture Clips deliver 100s of shots), in some areas efficient MDC materials, access to fast growing cloning technology (re-sizing process is done by cloning), forcefields (large scale albiet), forcefield disrupters.

If RT is more efficient then how come they don't have 1.5 ton PA units w/ 770 MDC and a railgun doing 3d6x10?

2E RT Cyclones have a MDC/kg ratio of 3.1-4.8 depending on the Model (1E has 11.4 -38LT, 6.8 -052/041), compared to the GB's (USA-G10 model) 2.5 (the best GB suit I've seen is 2.7, most are less than 2.5).

In both RT editions I think it clearly comes down to need for weapon or platform with the given (game) performance. The role the Glitterboy fills I think is handled not by PA like the Cyclones, but by a Destroid or the VHT.

As for damages (in 2E), the GU-11/AAC-11/M-227/M-996 are more efficient per individual element used (by round vs BG submunition) even though they do less damage overall (10 min, 20/60 maximum). Then you have the VHT-1's big cannons: 105mm Shells can be selected for similiar damage, the Particle replacement does more. So why go with a less efficient rail gun?

Neither range nor payload are part of the criteria you laid out. Range does apply in some cases, but then RT does have superior ranges available for less damage. Payload depends on the weapon, but generally goes to the BG (adjusting payload for method used to get the damage). So it's a trade off of efficient damage delivery vs payload vs range vs required energy.

Archie Three was a Top Secret military installion that was only a very few people knew of to begin with. So it's easy to see why his existance isn't public knowledge. FQ's new units fall under the heading of "Top Secret" too, just as the CS' new gear did too, sometimes doing things in secret works. However it's kinda hard to keep 4, 1/2 mile long starships, a secret on a world where they control less than the CS does.

I realize that Archie and FQ operations are secret, but that is the point. If one is trying to keep a secret on Rifts Earth from the CS it is possible. I do not see the REF (or other RT factions) arriving on Rifts Earth and advertising their arrival right away, instead they keep a low profile while they take stock of the situation.

It would be easier to keep a secret if they end up in the middle of open wilderness. Which makes their discovery and/or information being sold taking longer. I also have a hard time seeing the CS sending out a full field army (or more) to investigate some sesmic distrubance of a presumed crash site(s).

Not to mention that in 1E, I'm not sure about 2E, everything after Macross was laser resistant compared to Rifts only having the GB. 1E guns were rediculous if you used the burst rules.

Immediate differences between the two:
RT: Missiles, Speed, Agility, and MISSILES
Rifts: Armor and Weapon Damage

[keir451]

@Shadow Logan; Sorry man I just don't have there energy to go over this. I said I understand where you're coming from, and I do. I just don't agree or see it your way. To me CS tech will always be of a higher level than RT Tech. That's just the way I see it. As for the REF hiding from the CS; Yes they can but ONLY if they don't land in the CS' proverbial backyard, an area that ND can reasonably be considered part of given CS outpost radar ranges and long range patrols and the CS' plans for expansion.
Anyway I'm done, I've said my piece. Hasta la vista all.

[masslegion]

I know this is an old thread but I wanted to add an opinion on what this thread has developed into which is RT vs. Rifts Earth(RE), specifically the CS which I feel ideologically fits well that these two have conflict.

Regarding the relative power levels of RT vs RE/CS. I think it is silly how much time was put into debating which faction is more powerful than the other. I think the relative weakness of the robotech forces from the various forces can be explained in one of two ways.


1. Robotech was made to sell toys and was produced first as an anime, to my knowledge, and then supported by an RPG line by palladium books first starting in 1986. This means that the relative concept of future technologies is limited in the years leading up to and through the production of the Robotech TV Series in Japan from 1982-1984 was limited compared to RE's setting.

1.abeing made for anime in the 80's could limit the portrayal of technologies levels even when the concepts may be present.

2. The release dates for the the Rifts RPG books and the release dates of the Robotech RPG.
Robotech RPG Books were released starting in 1986 with Book One: Macross with even Robotech II: The RPG The Sentinels put out in 1988. The first Edition of Rifts Earth came out in 1990. Rifts has often been accused of severe power escalation and perhaps rightfully so. Is it no doubt that Kevin's baby is more power stat and technology wise over Robotech items? It reached full production, the publication of the book, ~4 years after the Robotech RPG books and between 5-8 years after the TV series. Robotech has been known and reviewed on numerous sites has having significantly less power creep.

Even the First Edition Conversion Book was printed in 1991 which still reflects this impression that Kevin's new World is more powerful than the Robotech Universe. I ask yourself are you and many of your friends really much different when you design something of your own even if you never share it with anyone else. This pattern follows as new authors join up with RIFTS and write their world books. Often these new nations are more advanced technologically or have more powerful magic. Look no further than Triax and the NGR WB:5. This nation is more advance than the coalition. On pg 152 of the Rifts Main Book the NGR is mentioned as being the german equivalent of the Coalition, but when WB:5 comes out they are more advanced.

The Coalition War Machine which really begins to reveal the full improvement of the Coalition War technologies was revealed in 1996. This is more than a decade after the last Robotech Book. Years in real time passed without the evolution of the Robotech Storyline while the RIFTS story line during its first decade has seen significant power escalation. BTW I am fine with this as the RIFTS RPG is not a static story by progresses through time.

I'd love to add more to this topic but I feel like I am rambling around the same concept. RIFTS is more powerful because Kevin wanted the GB and Rifts to be so. I personally don't feel this follows good logic, but heck RIFTS is more powerful than Star Trek in many ways, and many other genres concieved of in the 80's.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotech_(role-playing_game)
The Robotech RPG sourcebooks
Book One: Macross (November 1986)
Book Two: Robotech Defense Force Manual (March 1987)
Book Three: Zentraedi (March 1987)
Book Four: Southern Cross (September 1987)
Book Five: Invid Invasion (June 1988)
Book Six: Return of the Masters (July 1989)
Book Seven: New World Order (April 1995)
Book Eight: Strike Force (July 1995)
The Robotech RPG adventure books
Ghost Ship (February 1988)
Robotech Defense Force Accelerated Training Program (March 1988)
Lancer's Rockers (December 1989)
Zentraedi Breakout (May 1994)
Robotech II: The RPG
The Sentinels (September 1988)
Robotech Expeditionary Force Field Guide (March 1989)

[Akashic Soldier]

I've presented this idea before but it wasn't very popular.

First of all, I wouldn't introduce the U.N. Spacey.

In my scenario The Invid would Rift through onto Rifts Earth insearch of The Protoculture, find the Tix which are their distant cousins and establish an ant/aphid style relationship with them where the Invid take over the Tix and use them as an extension of their own body cultivating Protoculture in chambers deep beneath the surface. The CS have noticed that the Bug strategy is improving (as if somehow they're getting smarter!) and so launch a full scale assault and are able to do considerable damage. Until, much to their surprise, a new type of Tix (The Invid) burst out of the hives like angry bees and use their reflex technology to wipe them out.

The survivors are able to salvage the alien technology (a few downed Invid flyers) but can't figure it out so they share the technology with Northern Gun and Quebec (and maybe someone else) and they all make an agreement to reverse engineer it in the hopes of finding a weakness before the bugs wipe them all off the face of the planet. The differing nations working together are able to make the breakthroughs necessary to develop Reflex Technology and share it as per their agreement but keep their actual weapon designs to themselves (because this is Rifts and they are still paranoid isolationists). Each nation develops a different kind of Robotech technology. The Coalition rocking Macross Tech, NG breaking out with Hover Tanks, and Free Quebec developing Cyclones and The Alpha and the Beta.

Atlantis (very specificly the Kitani) have been on the verge of developing Reflex Technology for nearly a hundred years but repeated attempts have failed (because they do not have the Protoculture energy signature) and so when all of a sudden the human's develop it seemingly overnight they are enraged and so arrange for it to be stolen. A few months into the massive Tix/Invid War Atlantis' new reflex technology weapons show up on the scene (See the Macross II supplement)

EDIT: Yes, I know Macross II doesn't work of protoculture energy cells THAT is the point. The Kitani made their own improvements after studying Protoculture's energy signal and blending it with a specific P.P.E flow via technowizardry

The war and how it breaks out is then entirely up to the GM and the players... but the Invid are attempting to find ways of evolving the Tix and giving them mecha but its slow. To complicate matters further The Invid Queen can only be awake for certain periods of time because she is currently siphoning energy from a Ley Line into herself and in the middle of a new major evolutionary step. However once the Queen is ascendent... well... lets just say even Lord Splynncryth would be willing to temporarily put certain differences aside to stop that from happening. And for reasons that are Proseks alone, most Coalition troops have had their equipment downgraded to pre PA109. There are of course exceptions. Rumor is he is funneling the entire resources of the Coalition States into developing some sort of super dimensional weapon that will allow them to take back earth and expand the Emperor's reach into the stars... but no one can prove it.

[Zer0 Kay]

All necromancy is evil