A couple quick rules questions...

[erc1971]

I have been playing Rifts forever, and now that I am looking at Palladium Fantasy a bit more closely, I am looking to have a couple things clarified...

1: Parrying with Shields...are shields worthless in PFRPG? Why parry with a shield when I can parry with my weapon and the weapon will not lose SDC? Also, depending on my Weapon Proficiencies, I might have a higher chance to parry with a weapon than a shield.

2: Does the Strike bonus from Physical Prowess and Hand to Hand skills get used when throwing weapons or using bows?

Thanks,
Eric

[Library Ogre]

1: Parrying with Shields...are shields worthless in PFRPG? Why parry with a shield when I can parry with my weapon and the weapon will not lose SDC? Also, depending on my Weapon Proficiencies, I might have a higher chance to parry with a weapon than a shield.

BTB, shields aren't that great. I allow them to parry arrows and the like with less penalties, and give them a +1 or +2 on top of what is already listed.

2: Does the Strike bonus from Physical Prowess and Hand to Hand skills get used when throwing weapons or using bows?

IMO, yes.

[erc1971]

1: Parrying with Shields...are shields worthless in PFRPG? Why parry with a shield when I can parry with my weapon and the weapon will not lose SDC? Also, depending on my Weapon Proficiencies, I might have a higher chance to parry with a weapon than a shield.

BTB, shields aren't that great. I allow them to parry arrows and the like with less penalties, and give them a +1 or +2 on top of what is already listed.

2: Does the Strike bonus from Physical Prowess and Hand to Hand skills get used when throwing weapons or using bows?

IMO, yes.

Thanks for the reply, but your reply brought up one more question...

There are penalties to parry arrows? From what I read in the rules, you can parry arrows just fine without any penalties and you cannot parry things like fire balls, etc. at all.

Thanks,
Eric

[t0m]

in 2nd ed you are supposed to be -10 to parry arrows, and unable to parry magical projectiles unless you have a shield, in which case you should actually have a bonus to do so.

also, you you take dual wield:shield+sword you can do some pretty fun things in combat

[erc1971]

in 2nd ed you are supposed to be -10 to parry arrows, and unable to parry magical projectiles unless you have a shield, in which case you should actually have a bonus to do so.

also, you you take dual wield:shield+sword you can do some pretty fun things in combat

Thanks,

I did not see that anywhere, probably tucked away in a corner somewhere

Eric

[t0m]

in 2nd ed you are supposed to be -10 to parry arrows, and unable to parry magical projectiles unless you have a shield, in which case you should actually have a bonus to do so.

also, you you take dual wield:shield+sword you can do some pretty fun things in combat

Thanks,

I did not see that anywhere, probably tucked away in a corner somewhere

Eric

just a quick correction to what i said...you are supposed to be -10 to dodge or parry arrows, unless you are a longbowman, im not sure if the rule shows up anywhere in the book other than the occ description for longbowmen (pg 84)...and im also not positive on the parrying fireballs with a shield. as a bonus to shield users i let them parry (with shield only) any projectile (magic or not) with no penalty (other than possibly breaking their shield by parrying magic attacks with it). i cant find anything in the book that states shield users are also safe from the -10 to parry arrows, but it makes sense to me so i let them do it in my games. hope that helps, and sorry for not double checking before i posted the first time.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

I have been playing Rifts forever, and now that I am looking at Palladium Fantasy a bit more closely, I am looking to have a couple things clarified...

Ok, always glad to answer a fellow gamer...

1: Parrying with Shields...are shields worthless in PFRPG?

NO, but from a quick glance over the rules you might think so.

Why parry with a shield when I can parry with my weapon and the weapon will not lose SDC?

Good question. Here you are assuming your GM will never attempt to damage the weapon your defending with. Keep in mind GM's don't have to announce the special strikes or attacks.. They simply have to state..

"The minotaur is taking another swing"

A player more than likely will think said minotaur is taking a shot at the characters main body, when in reality the monster may have decided a better strategy would be to destroy the only method of defense his foe has..

Thus the player attempts to parry and the minotaur can do damage if he is successful in his attempt.. Now lets just assume the minotaur destroys the weapon. The player is looking at the possibility of fighting an armed foe with no way to defend himself but to dodge or flee.

Now same situation cept the player has a character with Sword & Shield and paired weapons. Minotaur swings weapon, character uses the shield to block, since he has paired weapons he also takes a shot (at the cost of an action) back at the minotaur.

The minotaur can't block as he's already committed to his attack (Unless he also has paired weapons and another weapon or shield to parry with) so the player hits the minotaur and rolls damage.

Also, depending on my Weapon Proficiencies, I might have a higher chance to parry with a weapon than a shield.

See above.

2: Does the Strike bonus from Physical Prowess and Hand to Hand skills get used when throwing weapons or using bows?

The PP & HTH bonuses do apply for thrown weapons. They do not apply for things that are shot. So a spear would get the bonus while a bow or crossbow would not.

[Marcethus]

2: Does the Strike bonus from Physical Prowess and Hand to Hand skills get used when throwing weapons or using bows?

The PP & HTH bonuses do apply for thrown weapons. They do not apply for things that are shot. So a spear would get the bonus while a bow or crossbow would not.

I can see Crossbow's not getting it but I think that Bows should as they do rely on hand-eye coordination to aim.

[ZorValachan]

There's another thread which goes over some shield uses. Such as even if there is an 'active' -10 to parry arrows, the character can just begin the melee using the shield as cover. Then cover rules would apply.

I always take it that the parry is the character notices someone is shooting an arrow at them, THEN decides to try to block it with a shield - reactive. Being proactive and taking cover before the fire (or after a shot, but before another) changes the situation to that of taking cover.

So it is not useless at all, but situational.

[Natasha]

2: Does the Strike bonus from Physical Prowess and Hand to Hand skills get used when throwing weapons or using bows?

The PP & HTH bonuses do apply for thrown weapons. They do not apply for things that are shot. So a spear would get the bonus while a bow or crossbow would not.

I can see Crossbow's not getting it but I think that Bows should as they do rely on hand-eye coordination to aim.

That's covered by the weapon proficiency. I agree with UR Leader Hobbes unequivocally.

[OldGeek]

This is from the FAQ archive, regarding the question about P.P. applying to ranged weapons/thrown weapons

Question: Are the PP bonuses to strike applicable to any of the ranged combat WPs?
Specifically Archery & Targeting but also the more 'modern' weapon proficiencies.
Answer: The bonus from PP is aplicable to ALL ancient style weapons including bows and crossbows, spears when thrown, throwing knives, shuriken, and other "thrown" weapons.
P.P. bonuses only apply to modern weapon proficiencies in certain circumstances/systems.

Handy link
--------
As for shields, you need to pretty much house rule them to make them work nicely.

The -10 to parry and dodge rule implies, as written in the core book, that you could attempt to parry said attacks with any weapon... which means you'd be just as well off with a dagger (at low levels) or a sword (at higher levels) as you would with a shield. That is, of course, assuming that you get your PP, Hand to Hand and weapon proficiency bonuses added in (which, according to the FAQ archive, you do in Palladium Fantasy - the book doesn't say you don't). It also makes it easier to parry an arrow with a dagger than to actually dodge out of the way...

[Natasha]

That section of the FAQ just confused me....
That's part of the reason I agree with Hobbes; the other part is that it makes sense to me.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I have been playing Rifts forever, and now that I am looking at Palladium Fantasy a bit more closely, I am looking to have a couple things clarified...

1: Parrying with Shields...are shields worthless in PFRPG? Why parry with a shield when I can parry with my weapon and the weapon will not lose SDC? Also, depending on my Weapon Proficiencies, I might have a higher chance to parry with a weapon than a shield.

2: Does the Strike bonus from Physical Prowess and Hand to Hand skills get used when throwing weapons or using bows?

Thanks,
Eric

1a) no
1b) shields do not loose sdc when they are used to parry blows, unless they are attacked directly. (Note: this is not rifts or RT where the MDC shields take damage from the MD fire when its blocked.)
1c) with WP shield you have a better chance of parrying an incoming blow. Shields give a +1 parry (or better) when used, above the WP and PP.

2) yes, they are used with thrown weapons and to Bows..

[UR Leader Hobbes]

This is from the FAQ archive, regarding the question about P.P. applying to ranged weapons/thrown weapons

Question: Are the PP bonuses to strike applicable to any of the ranged combat WPs?
Specifically Archery & Targeting but also the more 'modern' weapon proficiencies.
Answer: The bonus from PP is aplicable to ALL ancient style weapons including bows and crossbows, spears when thrown, throwing knives, shuriken, and other "thrown" weapons.
P.P. bonuses only apply to modern weapon proficiencies in certain circumstances/systems.

Handy link
--------

The FAQs are not cannon and all too often are contradictory.

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/combat.html

16. Does a P.P. bonus add to the strike when using a bow or crossbow? I never thought that it did, but in the new PFRPG, there is one paragraph about modern weapon proficiencies, where it says that you do. Could you clear this up for me?
Answer: The P.P. strike bonus is not applied when using a bow or crossbow.

What they are referring to is the WP Modern Weapons (guns!) in the main PFRPG book. Instead of actually providing a bonus to guns the character with the WP can add in his PP bonus. Again this is one of the inconsistencies of PB. In most systems with guns players get a bonus from the WP and not from the PP. This skill grants the PP bonus as it's unlikely that anyone would have been able to take the time to develop the WP. Characters simply have encountered guns at some point and know what they can do. For some unknown reason Kevin decided to grant a bonus from the PP in this instance.

[OldGeek]

It's Palladium... there is no cannon, never has been or will be...

[Natasha]

It's Palladium... there is no cannon, never has been or will be...

RECON has cannon. I think they're called howitzers.

[OldGeek]

I stand corrected...

Or should I be ducking?

[Natasha]

I stand corrected...

Or should I be ducking?

When dealing with cannon, cover is good.

When dealing with canon, the covers are usually good.

[OldGeek]

Canon also makes good cameras...

Sleep deprivation and typing don't mix. I just spelled it the same as the person I was replying to to be honest...

[drewkitty ~..~]

this is PFRPG forum not recon or hu....

[OldGeek]

as a side note though... wouldn't contradictory and confusing be pretty much the canon with Palladium?

Don't get me wrong, the looseness of the rules is what I like, wouldn't bother with it otherwise, but even the core book tends to be confusing and contradictory at times.

[drewkitty ~..~]

if the question was "Isn't Contradictory and Confusing rules, pretty much 'par for the course' with PB?", then I will say, when you are mixing settings' rules, yes, C&C is par.
when you get old rules mixed with newer ones, yes, C&C is par.

also when people bring up FAQ answers, yes, C&C is par.

however, megaversaly,
As for the PP bonus and ancient weapons, Yes, you add the PP bonus to the strike.
As for modern weapons, unless you have a WP, or MA form that specifically lets you add the PP bonus to the strike (there is at least one) then No, you do no add the PP bonus to the strike roll.

[OldGeek]

Actually, rules tend to contradict themselves even within a single core book... or be confusing (blind effects come to mind - not to mention the original question in this thread, which was about the benefits, if any, of shields)... but that's neither here nore there.

As a note: Where would one, using only Palladium Fantasy, find the rule that states that bonus from high PP does, or does not, apply to bows and crossbows?

If we assume that PP does apply to thrown weapons, but NOT to bows or crossbows, how does one rationalize the fact that it is easier to strike a target with a thrown weapon, as opposed to a fired projectile that is moving a considerable amount faster... The -10 penalty to parry and dodge ranged fire (as stated with the long bowman) is implied to include thrown weapons as well as shot, so that doesn't fix it for me.

I can see it applying to all, or to none, but not just some ranged attacks... Does it include hand-eye coordination as well as agility, or is it just agility? If it is both that crossbows and bows BOTH require hand-eye coordination, and both should get the bonus... if it isn't than even thrown weapons shouldn't receive the bonus.

I'm avoiding firearms as they are discussed in the palladium core book and expressly state that you get PP and targetting bonuses with them in this game.

Myself, I include PP bonuses on all strike rolls, melee, thrown or shot... only place I wouldn't is siege weapons and the like.

[Natasha]

If we assume that PP does apply to thrown weapons, but NOT to bows or crossbows, how does one rationalize the fact that it is easier to strike a target with a thrown weapon, as opposed to a fired projectile that is moving a considerable amount faster

The last time I tried to put into words, it was an utter disaster. So let me just put it here briefly: I base it on my personal experiences and conclusions I've drawn from learning to throw atlatls and to fire bows and to fire rifles. Certainly agility is a factor in all from them but the conclusion I drew was that agility played a larger role in throwing atlatls. The result of this is that P.P. bonuses go to thrown weapons while not to bows or rifles.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

As a note: Where would one, using only Palladium Fantasy, find the rule that states that bonus from high PP does, or does not, apply to bows and crossbows?

Well aside from the fact you use Rate of Fire as opposed to Attacks/Actions per melee when using a bow or crossbow..

Look on page 84 under Dodge & Parry Arrows! They are considered "Projectiles and not thrown weapons. Hence the different WPs. Other WPs give you a bonus to throw.

If we assume that PP does apply to thrown weapons, but NOT to bows or crossbows, how does one rationalize the fact that it is easier to strike a target with a thrown weapon, as opposed to a fired projectile that is moving a considerable amount faster... The -10 penalty to parry and dodge ranged fire (as stated with the long bowman) is implied to include thrown weapons as well as shot, so that doesn't fix it for me.

It's a matter of pulling back a string or pulling a trigger vs physically throwing something with your body. Think of the difference in technique from an Olympic archer vs an Olympic javelin thrower. HUGE difference in the physicality required to launch each projectile.

The -10 rule is applicable to both "thrown or fired projectile weapons/attacks." If you wish to adjust the difficulty than adjust the bonus for attempting to dodge. (IE In Rifts your -10 to dodge with no bonus as your literally dodging bullets)

I can see it applying to all, or to none, but not just some ranged attacks... Does it include hand-eye coordination as well as agility, or is it just agility? If it is both that crossbows and bows BOTH require hand-eye coordination, and both should get the bonus... if it isn't than even thrown weapons shouldn't receive the bonus.

Again your trying to compare a thrown weapon with a shot weapon. Different WPs come into play. So different rules regarding evasion.

I'm avoiding firearms as they are discussed in the palladium core book and expressly state that you get PP and targetting bonuses with them in this game.

Myself, I include PP bonuses on all strike rolls, melee, thrown or shot... only place I wouldn't is siege weapons and the like.

NO reread the WP Modernweapons. In the main PFRPG book. Instead of actually providing a bonus to strike with guns the character with the WP can add in his PP bonus. Again this is one of the inconsistencies of PB. In most systems with guns players get a bonus from the WP and not from the PP. This skill grants the PP bonus as it's unlikely that anyone would have been able to take the time to develop the WP. Characters simply have encountered guns at some point and know what they can do. For some unknown reason Kevin decided to grant a bonus from the PP in this instance.

So why not siege weapons? I mean if it takes some hand eye coordination to set the catapult or other siege weapon at the right angle and then to pull the trigger/lever to shoot whats the difference? Heck some are just giant crossbows! Why don't you grant them the PP Bonus?

It just doesn't make sense to do that. Just like it doesn't make sense to do it with a shot weapon vs a thrown weapon.

[drewkitty ~..~]

As far as I've read in a published PF book, PP is added to all weapon attacks because none of the rules state that it does not apply.

Since bows & cross bows are not "modern weapons" any rules about 'modern weapons' do not apply. And thus, the prohibition about adding the PP bonus to the modern weapon strike roll do not apply.

Then again, all those rules about not using the PP bonuses with modern weapons are in other settings, so don't apply to the PF RPG setting.

Spoiler:

Unless your GM brought your chars over from a modern setting, and then the prohibitions would only count for the imported chars because they were made under a different rules set.

[OldGeek]

It just doesn't make sense to do that. Just like it doesn't make sense to do it with a shot weapon vs a thrown weapon.

Actually, because a fired weapon, like a bow or crossbow, is hand held, having a stat that has, at times, represented hand-eye coordination and steadiness of hand, provide a bonus, does make sense. In first edition PP provided a bonus to the general repair skill (First Edition Adventures on the High Seas Page 9). It doesn't make PP apply to bows, but it certainly makes it into more than just agility...

Siege weapons aren't hand held... aiming and firing them is more a mark of judgement and experience.

The rest of your argument made little to no sense to me. Swords and axes have different techniques, and thus have different bonuses due to different weapon proficiencies. That's the only reason Bows and thrown weapons have different weapon proficiencies too... different techniques to use. Having different techniques doesn't imply, in any way, that one gets a bonus from x attribute and the other doesn't. Neither does the fact that one weapon proficiency uses RoF and the other doesn't... Bows using RoF is a hold over from this games connections to early DnD... I always loved how in some modern settings, before the 2 attacks for living became megaversal, an archer had more shots per melee than a guy firing a semi-automatic pistol. Also, if you use the two attacks rule in this game, a first level soldier with archery will now have more shots, and the same strike bonus (zero), with a longbow as he does a short bow (read the archery description).

I am familiar with the modern weapons in the other games btw. I know that they are expressly stated as "PP does not apply" but in this game they do. why? No freaking clue what Kevin was doing there... maybe he was thinking about redoing the modern weapon rules at the time and was contemplating having PP apply... then changed his mind after this book was published? Only Kevin knows, and he may not consider it important enough to worry about.

One last point, reading page 84... that's a grammar thing, you can't use projectile twice in that sentence and not look retarded. So he couldn't have stated "thrown projectiles and fired projectiles" but that is exactly what it means... Basically, both are projectiles.

I'd agree with Natasha. In my experience shooting guns and bows, perception and intelligence were key, not prowess. And any weapons I've thrown, which would be darts, axes, knives, stars, boomerang (not really a weapon), whatever, those required agility for accuracy.

I would likely agree with Natasha as well. I'm not sure how much intelligence I'd put behind firing a bow, but I don't see agility playing much role. But there is no dexterity attribute in this game, and mechanically it can make thrown weapons significantly easier to strike with, if I don't apply something to bows. It also means that all people are equally good shots, which I wager, one could argue both for and against, but to go on and say that all people are not equally good at throwing crap... to me that's odd.

In my first edition game we didn't apply PP to any missile attack. Since Targeting gave a nice bonus we just played without PP, and figured it worked well enough (strike on range attacks got pretty high even without it anyway). Maybe I will roll my campaign back to first edition... rules were simple and uncomplicated (though they still contradicted themselves).

All that aside though, I was wanting to see "where in the rules does it say..." and my impression is, it doesn't. And Drewkitty seems to say the same thing. Which means we do what we think makes sense... which is pretty much how I think the game was designed to be played.

[Natasha]

but to go on and say that all people are not equally good at throwing crap... to me that's odd.

Here is the problem that this conversation ultimately bumps into. What's odd to one actually makes sense to another, and then a 100 posts trying to ignore the impasse.

All that aside though, I was wanting to see "where in the rules does it say..." and my impression is, it doesn't. And Drewkitty seems to say the same thing. Which means we do what we think makes sense... which is pretty much how I think the game was designed to be played.

[KillWatch]

Shields:
I add the AR of the shield to the parry roll

Ranged Actions:
I add PP/10 as the bonus and no hand to hand bonuses except from specific WP skills

[UR Leader Hobbes]

Actually, because a fired weapon, like a bow or crossbow, is hand held, having a stat that has, at times, represented hand-eye coordination and steadiness of hand, provide a bonus, does make sense. In first edition PP provided a bonus to the general repair skill (First Edition Adventures on the High Seas Page 9). It doesn't make PP apply to bows, but it certainly makes it into more than just agility...

I'm sticking strictly with 2nd edition rules here.

Siege weapons aren't hand held... aiming and firing them is more a mark of judgement and experience.

Same with bows and crossbows. Aside from drawing back the string or pulling the trigger, not a whole lot of physicality in shooting a bolt or arrow.

The rest of your argument made little to no sense to me.

OK. What part didn't you understand?

Swords and axes have different techniques, and thus have different bonuses due to different weapon proficiencies.

Different style weapons = different WPs.

That's the only reason Bows and thrown weapons have different weapon proficiencies too... different techniques to use.

Just exactly how many techniques are there for shooting a bow/cross bow? I think your off on the WPs. So maybe that is where your confusion is coming from. It's not the different techniques that determine the WP. It's the style of weapon that determines the WP.
If it was techniques than the WP section would be totally different. You would have traditional knight technique, samuari, ninja techniques for swords as opposed to a WP.

Having different techniques doesn't imply, in any way, that one gets a bonus from x attribute and the other doesn't. Neither does the fact that one weapon proficiency uses RoF and the other doesn't... Bows using RoF is a hold over from this games connections to early DnD... I always loved how in some modern settings, before the 2 attacks for living became megaversal, an archer had more shots per melee than a guy firing a semi-automatic pistol. Also, if you use the two attacks rule in this game, a first level soldier with archery will now have more shots, and the same strike bonus (zero), with a longbow as he does a short bow (read the archery description).

Again it's not techniques, it's different style weapons. Hence why the bonuses go up at different rates.

I am familiar with the modern weapons in the other games btw. I know that they are expressly stated as "PP does not apply" but in this game they do. why? No freaking clue what Kevin was doing there... maybe he was thinking about redoing the modern weapon rules at the time and was contemplating having PP apply... then changed his mind after this book was published? Only Kevin knows, and he may not consider it important enough to worry about.

One last point, reading page 84... that's a grammar thing, you can't use projectile twice in that sentence and not look retarded. So he couldn't have stated "thrown projectiles and fired projectiles" but that is exactly what it means... Basically, both are projectiles.

No, clearly he's pointing out that weapons that are designed to be thrown or shot get the -10 to dodge rule applied. Hence why you don't apply it to swords, maces, or axes that are thrown. Read the whole section and not just the snippet.

I would likely agree with Natasha as well. I'm not sure how much intelligence I'd put behind firing a bow, but I don't see agility playing much role.

Again using a crossbow it's point and shoot. Sure you have to judge the wind and the speed that your target is moving but that is about it. There is really no agility that comes into it, hence why you do NOT get a bonus from your PP added in to your strike role with projectile weapons.

But there is no dexterity attribute in this game, and mechanically it can make thrown weapons significantly easier to strike with, if I don't apply something to bows.

Yeah it's too bad this game doesn't have a attribute that is some sort of determination to show what degree of dexterity and agility a character has... Oh wait! Whats this on Page 16! Under Physical Prowess!

It also means that all people are equally good shots, which I wager, one could argue both for and against, but to go on and say that all people are not equally good at throwing crap... to me that's odd.

Again thrown vs projectile/shot weapons. Different bonuses.

All that aside though, I was wanting to see "where in the rules does it say..." and my impression is, it doesn't. And Drewkitty seems to say the same thing. Which means we do what we think makes sense... which is pretty much how I think the game was designed to be played.

Exactly. And seeing how you just admitted that agility doesn't play a role in shooting a bow you now realize why the PP bonus doesn't get added in. Also if you are adding it in just to make it just as equal as thrown weapons your not really using bows properly.. Seriously, a first level archer has a good 600+ feet of effective range with his bow. Tossing a spear isn't gonna go nearly that far.

[OldGeek]

Okay I had this big long rebuttal typed up but who cares? LOL

My question was about the rules in this game. Specifically I wanted to know where it stated you didn't get your PP bonus on a strike roll with a bow or crossbow? There is a thing stating you can apply it to your strike, parry and dodge rolls (it might even state "all..."). Nothing in the palladium fantasy line, that I have seen, states this does NOT apply to bows/crossbows though.

I don't care how you play. Hell, I wouldn't care if I was playing in a game run by you! I'd be happy not applying my PP bonus to my bow or crossbow attacks... It's just a game after all. I usually use thrown projectiles anyway. Not a bow man in this game... shooting something with a short bow here is pretty much a guarantee NOT to do anything but make it angry.

If you were playing in a second edition game run by me, however, you'd have to add you damn PP bonus into your archery attacks. And you'd damn well like it too!

*** edit***
Also, terrain being what it is in a heavy woodland area... my archers can't shoot that far either!

And agility doesn't, I agree... but dexterity does.. since everyone was stating agility I assumed nobody wanted dexterity to play a part in PP... If we go by the definition that it DOES include dex... well yah.. PP applies