Whats up with the natural 17-20 for a head/neck shot?

[Thinyser]

I just got my X-mas grab bag with my copy of Dead Reign in it today.

On p.37 it says you have to roll a natural 17-20 to hit a Zombie's neck or head. This makes me want to

Why?

First its nothing to do with the 17 or higher part of it its solely because unlike the normal "12 or above on called shots" (or in this case 14 with the zombies' AR being 14) which does not negate the training and attribute modifiers this makes all characters equal in their ability to hit a zombie with a called shot to the head/neck.

Its like the Dead Reign universe is saying "I don't care that you have training in the weapons you use and have used them before this encounter in other combat situations, and furthermore your natural aptitude for steady hands and good aim means nothing either... you still only have a 20% chance of hitting what you are very specifically targeting... The same chance that untrained, uncoordinated, teenaged punk, holding a gun he has never fired before has." <<Muhahaha>>

Its as silly and unrealistic of a rule as I have ever EVER seen Palladium put on paper.

Makes me want to put the book on shelf and not bother to read the rest.

[kevarin]

the reason for having to roll the 17-20 is under
section 3. strike penaltys ?

but if you can only hurt a zombie on a roll of 15
or higher making it a natural 17 or higher for a
head or neck shot isnt that bad max sdc for the
neck is 18 sdc making it the same as a critical hit
just with an expanded roll to hit from just 20 to 17-20

i think the natural 17-20 is to make the game a little harder
and to make you have to think before you get in to a fight
not just run in and say off with there heads and start dropping
zombies like flies and you dont miss on the called shot unless
you roll under a 15 so all tho you miss the neck or head
you still deal some damage to the zombie not a total loss
and unless i missed it somewhere i dont see it saying
the called shot uses up any extra attacks to use

[Thinyser]

the reason for having to roll the 17-20 is under
section 3. strike penaltys ?

but if you can only hurt a zombie on a roll of 15
or higher making it a natural 17 or higher for a
head or neck shot isnt that bad max sdc for the
neck is 18 sdc making it the same as a critical hit
just with an expanded roll to hit from just 20 to 17-20

i think the natural 17-20 is to make the game a little harder
and to make you have to think before you get in to a fight
not just run in and say off with there heads and start dropping
zombies like flies and you dont miss on the called shot unless
you roll under a 15 so all tho you miss the neck or head
you still deal some damage to the zombie not a total loss
and unless i missed it somewhere i dont see it saying
the called shot uses up any extra attacks to use

You miss the point completely. Yes It requires a 15 or higher to bypass the AR 14... this is NOT a NATURAL 15 but is rather 15 after all your bonuses (from WP and Attributes) are added in.

The normal procedures for called shots are 12 or higher including bonuses. That of course would not work on Zombies with an AR of 14 so the roll must still be a minimum of 15 even to do a called shot to the arm or leg.

I have NO PROBLEM whatsoever with upping head/neck shots to 17+ (or even 19 & 20 only, it is after all a rather small, and usually moving target) but to make the strike REQUIRE a NATURAL roll of any number takes away all the character's skill with the weapon (WP) and natural aptitude (PP bonus to strike).

It is, as I have said, like the rule makes the universe say "I don't care that you are a trained swordmaster and have cut off the heads of thousands of zombies nor do I care that you have a natrual aptitude for wielding weapons... you have the same FLAT 20% that the untrained, uncoordinated, shmuck over there that swings his sword like a baseball bat has of hitting the head or neck of a zombie.

Now understandably MOST of the survivors were untrained schmucks, but not all, and not all will remain untrained. I'm sure if you survived you would want (and on the quick) to pick up skills in weapon useage.

Also not all untrained persons are uncoordinated. You might be that college baseball player that has a PP of 25 (was gonna go pro any day now) and can swing that bat like there is no tomorrow (which for you there might not be) So you would have some better than normal PP bonus to strike and probably a 1 or 2 level bump to your WP Blunt level So at 1st you would really be 2nd or 3rd level WP blunt just because you are so accustom to your "weapon's" heft and balance... you already have YEARS of training hitting small and very fast moving objects and a natural ability that few can match.

So why would you, Mr. Almost ProBallPlayer, have the same FLAT 20% chance to hit a zombie in the head as a 13 year old girl that has only swung a bat when she was forced to play softball in 8th grade Phys Ed?

Oh Yeah you WOULDN'T you would have a much MUCH better chance.

So to reiterate my stance: 17+ to hit small moving targets is fine, a "natural" 17+ is retarded because it NEGATES all the character's skill and attribute bonuses and makes a well trained, naturally accurate character the same as a untrained & uncoordinated schmuck.

[Robroy]

I agree with Thinyser, I would use a -4 mod to target the head (+ bounses)

After all when the Marines got the ACOG scopes in Iraq there was so many bad guys getting shot in the head there was an investigation to see if they were being executed

[Brian Manning]

This is sort of like the -10 rule, except for strikes. Most will just allow bonuses, some will run it straight out of the book, but for some reason, even though both camps will probably enjoy the game, they will say the other camp is wrong. I'm going to run it both ways (perhaps in the same campaign, when the PCs are a little more hardened), since to me the extra actions spent taking a more difficult shot are enough of a trade off.

I would like to see how targeting the main body works out in hairy situations. That way bursts are allowed, so you're increasing the damage and using less actions (a called aimed shot to the head/neck takes 3 actions...a long burst to the chest takes one), and the target is easier to hit. Sure you gotta finish them off afterward, but tactically it seems to take more slouchers out of the fight quicker, just not permanent (if you're there for more than an hour, you did something wrong anyway).

[Robroy]

I don't think one or the other is wrong, I can only say how I would DM it, as a player I would go by the DM. In the end you can only go with what works for you/ your group.

[Thinyser]

This is sort of like the -10 rule, except for strikes. Most will just allow bonuses, some will run it straight out of the book, but for some reason, even though both camps will probably enjoy the game, they will say the other camp is wrong. I'm going to run it both ways (perhaps in the same campaign, when the PCs are a little more hardened), since to me the extra actions spent taking a more difficult shot are enough of a trade off.

Yeah the extra attack(s) are more than enough of a hindernce. In fact I think the game has never been right. IMO it would work best if you have called shots take the normal number of actions with no bonus. It grants you the ability to target a specific location on a object but does not add to your accuracy. To aim you must "call your shot" then spend an additional action to aim. This first action spent aiming gets you +2, an additional +1 can be added for each additional action spent aiming (so 2 actions gets you a called aimed shot with +2 to strike while 3 actions would get you a called aimed shot with +3 to strike.) This also allows for called shots with melee weapons where it would be impossible to sit there for 3 seconds waiting for you attack with even 2 zombies comming at you. Try making many skull crushing blunt weapon attacks when you have 2 zombies with in feet of you and you have to burn an action waiting for your called shot to occur.

I would like to see how targeting the main body works out in hairy situations. That way bursts are allowed, so you're increasing the damage and using less actions (a called aimed shot to the head/neck takes 3 actions...a long burst to the chest takes one), and the target is easier to hit. Sure you gotta finish them off afterward, but tactically it seems to take more slouchers out of the fight quicker, just not permanent (if you're there for more than an hour, you did something wrong anyway).

Actually on p.180 it states in the quick reference guide that you can have an unaimed called shot for only 2 actions but you do not get any bonus to strike. If you take an aimed called shot you get +2 to strike but then you burn 3 actions, which is overmuch IMO, nobody is going to take that much time to aim and call a shot unless its with a rifle and they are well away from the zombies. I don't really care for that rule anywhere in the Megaverse anywhere but certainly not here.

Also on p. 181 in the Attacks per melee section it states that long bursts and bursts from certain weapons count as 2 (sometimes more) actions.

And The simplified 3 round short versus 5 round long bursts of the sub machine gun's (which for some godforsaken reason are ONLY burst capable no selection for single shot fire) and the assult rifle's dont really make up in damage what they lose in actions when steping up to the long 5 round burst.

[Brian Manning]

Yeah the extra attack(s) are more than enough of a hindernce. In fact I think the game has never been right. IMO it would work best if you have called shots take the normal number of actions with no bonus. It grants you the ability to target a specific location on a object but does not add to your accuracy. To aim you must "call your shot" then spend an additional action to aim.

I don't know about "never been right". The extra actions for called and aimed shots were added in the Rifts Ultimate Edition if I recall. There never used to be any extra actions required for aiming or calling (or both). Personally I'm not a big fan of them myself either. What I would prefer is to allow aimed OR called shots taking only one action, and if they want to combine both then it takes an extra action. Actually I've never really been a fan of anything requiring multiple actions. How is that handled, do they get to attack and just lose the next action, or is the first action spent aiming and the next action is the attack? What I would do is give them a dodge penalty if they take a called or aimed shot, and if they combine them, they can't dodge (but they can still parry), since they've got to plant and create a solid base to shoot from. That way, cover is far more important, if you're sacrificing your dodge until it's your action again.

As for the firearm damage not being the most efficient way to go...I agree with you, but with the rules as written, it still takes only one action to perform a 3 round burst from a sub machine gun, or assault rifle, so even though it's not as efficient as it should be, it's still better than using a single shot and spending two actions to target the head (three if you want an aimed called shot at a limb).

I'm not too pumped about the way the guns are written in the book, but for me it's not a game breaker, and I don't imagine it's going to turn anyone in my group away from the game. I guess the only thing that seems like a glaring error is the sub machine gun only doing the same damage as a single round with a three round burst (it's listed as using pistol/9mm ammo which does 3D6). If that's the case, then throwing three bullets but only hitting with one should provide a bonus to strike. There's got to be a trade off for burst fire, extra accuracy for one round hitting, or same accuracy (or even slightly less) with more rounds hitting.

[Trooper Jim]

it should be easier, not harder, to hit a sloucher in the head. it's swarming that makes slouchers dangerous.

Exactly.

[erc1971]

Our group played Dead Reign for the first time last night.

We all loved the game, but none of liked the difficulty in hurting zombies. After going through clips and clips of ammo just to take down a few zombies, the game resolved into the silliness of us running up into melee and placing the barrel of the gun against their head for insta-kills. So, we dumped zombie AR, gave head shots a -3 to hit as per normal palladium rules and got rid of the close up combat zombie rules. We were all much happier.

Eric

[Thinyser]

So I think a lot of people see a blindingly obvious problem with the superior toughness of the zombies. The strength of the zombie horde is in its numbers and its mob attacks, not in the individual zombie's strength.

Here are some "quick fixes" to this issue. Take any or all that you like and mix and match them to make your game into the one you want.

1) and this is not optional IMO. REMOVE the natural from the natural 17+ needed to hit the head or neck of the zombie. Bonuses should count for this just like any other called shot otherwise as Dark Brandon (IIRC) said something like a parapaligic kid and a veteran marine both have the same 20% chance to hit. ALSO change it to the normal 12 to hit and put a -4 modifier on the dice roll to hit the “brain/neck” This means you have to get a 16 or higher to strike the brain/neck.

2) remove the "triple" 48-78 SDC needed to splat a zombie skull in one shot. The average 21 SDC and 18 HP adds to be 39 points needed to one shot a zombie with a head shot. Considering small caliber rounds do only half damage to zombies a .223 round would only do half of its 4d6+2 damage as is listed for the “assault rifle” That’s a roll of 2d6+1 SDC for your single shot to the head. Getting 39 points with that is pretty hard. See number 3.

3) Head shots do double damage same as the modified rule for combat I have always used in my games. So we start with 2d6+1 which maxes out at 13 SDC. Double this and you get 26. If you were to crit and add 13 again for a total of (26d+1)x 3 maxed out is 39 total SDC exactly enough to mist the zombie’s skull in one shot if you crit AND roll max damage.

With an average roll of 2d6+1 coming out to be 8 (doubled to 16 for headshots) you would only need three called shots to the head to kill (usually) an average zombie.

4)Still by the rules that would require 6 actions or 9 actions if you want to get your +2 strike bonus from aiming. Which is IF you hit the called shot to the head with all 3 shots. If you figure you have +3 to strike from WP bonus and PP bonus and need to hit the 16 it would require a 13 or better on the die which is a 40% chance to hit so 2 out of 5 shots will hit that’s 7.5 round up to 8 called shots (16 actions) needed to land 3. Its getting better but still that’s 2 people each taking 4 called shots to the head and burning up most or all of their actions for 2 melee. I cannot see it taking 20-30 seconds for 2 people to head shot down a zombie while using assault rifles. Can you? No so drop the additional action from the called shot that means it only take 8 actions 2 people 4 attacks each 1 melee 3 shots landing and do average damage.

5) if your still not satisfied (and you can tell I’m not) then lets take away the “half damage from small caliber rounds” since the brain is a very damage sensitive organ I would have to say that a 4d6+2 .223 round would have a devastating effect to the zombie brain same way it does on a living human brain. So with that in mind the average roll of 16 SDC, doubled for a head shot, is 32 all you need it two hits now and with 62 damage they will be going down left and right, and with a good damage roll or on almost any natural 20 you will one shot them. Still you only have a 40% chance to hit with a +3 to strike so it’s not like every shot is landing. Because of misses and low damage you could still spend 2-5 shots killing most zombies, or spend additional actions to aim and improve you chance to hit by 10% to save ammo.

[Robroy]

[quote="Thinyser"][quote="Jaguar Wong"]

Also on p. 181 in the Attacks per melee section it states that long bursts and bursts from certain weapons count as 2 (sometimes more) actions./quote]

My biggest problem with the 5 round long burst = 2 actions rule is a "slow" weapon with a cycle rate of 600 round/ minute means it fires 10 rounds/ second. A character with 4 action gets 3.75 sec. to act, 2 actions=7.5 sec. or 75 rounds

But I still use it. It makes players thing about their strategy

[Thinyser]

Also on p. 181 in the Attacks per melee section it states that long bursts and bursts from certain weapons count as 2 (sometimes more) actions./quote]

My biggest problem with the 5 round long burst = 2 actions rule is a "slow" weapon with a cycle rate of 600 round/ minute means it fires 10 rounds/ second. A character with 4 action gets 3.75 sec. to act, 2 actions=7.5 sec. or 75 rounds

But I still use it. It makes players thing about their strategy

Yeah its not really realistic but you usually dont want to dump an entire magizine in one long burst either, its not worth it ammo wise in most cases as beyond 5 rounds of full auto burst you will have drifted off target even if you have a very steady hand or are at very close quarters. 3 rounds is the most accurate in reality and doesn't waste 2 extra shots that are not very likely to hit... though Palladium's rules dont really sustain this.

[ghost2020]

Once again the burst rules suffer another tragic death upon release of a new rule book.

Cripes. Why can't there just be one set of rules for burst fire across all of the Palladium games and just leave it the hell alone?
I mean really?

It doesn't help bring players together. This is why people walk away from Palladium books, they get tired of the rules being modified per game, and rebuying the same character gen/skill selection rules with every book. Sheesh. It's getting ridiculous!

I've been a loyal fan for decades, but I'm even feeling pushed to the limit.

We made our house rules, applied it to all settings and left it alone. It works fine. Too bad Palladium finds it necessary to muck with it every chance they get.


Sorry, just been holding that one in for about 12 years.

[ScottBernard]

The first time we tried it according to the rules we got overrun and slaughtered. Like others we've gotten rid of the AR and just made them dangerous in groups only. Id hate to see a heroes version of this; the rules would probably allow "super zombies" like in the marvel zombies comics.

[cornholioprime]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here....but aren't Human Skulls supposed to be hard to hit??

And we're not exactly talking about "George Romero slow" Undead here; we're talking about moving, twitching Targets of uneven gait, for which I'll remind you that even in the Real World, head shots don't always kill, much less remove sufficient amounts of brain matter.

Still, if things are as the guy "above" me said and his group got overrun on a regular basis, then maybe it is a good idea to adopt Thinny's Headshot rules (also above) in your game.

[Rockwolf66]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here....but aren't Human Skulls supposed to be hard to hit??

And we're not exactly talking about "George Romero slow" Undead here; we're talking about moving, twitching Targets of uneven gait, for which I'll remind you that even in the Real World, head shots don't always kill, much less remove sufficient amounts of brain matter.

Not according to a friend in the sandbox who has the pictures to back up his observations. Even with Iron sights one can shoot a target the size of a human head at pretty reasonable distances even on a moveing target. At 25m or less headshots with Iron sights are seen when the shooter is trained in the firearm used. with any sort of Optic system the headshot count hits the roof. You start seeing active humans shot in the head from 100m+. While I will admit that there have been people shot in the head with say a .357 magnum and lived. the round destroyed half their brain and left them a vegitable for a while untill new neural connections were made.

[cornholioprime]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here....but aren't Human Skulls supposed to be hard to hit??

And we're not exactly talking about "George Romero slow" Undead here; we're talking about moving, twitching Targets of uneven gait, for which I'll remind you that even in the Real World, head shots don't always kill, much less remove sufficient amounts of brain matter.

Not according to a friend in the sandbox who has the pictures to back up his observations. Even with Iron sights one can shoot a target the size of a human head at pretty reasonable distances even on a moveing target. At 25m or less headshots with Iron sights are seen when the shooter is trained in the firearm used. with any sort of Optic system the headshot count hits the roof. You start seeing active humans shot in the head from 100m+. While I will admit that there have been people shot in the head with say a .357 magnum and lived. the round destroyed half their brain and left them a vegitable for a while untill new neural connections were made.

And while we can't get into Kevin's head to see the reasoning behind his ruling, perhaps the DICE ROLL difficulty is meant to reflect the 'in world' difficulty of killing those things -Zombies wouldn't be stopped by the same Brain Trauma that would stop a living person cold, and from what I understand the Exit Wounds in even most fatal real-world headshots aren't cataclysmic, "tiny hole in the front of the skull but no brain matter left inside the skull cavity" type hits.

(And please remember, folks, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here.)

[Augur]

I think most folks are forgetting a few very important things here.

1) Standing common sense policy to avoid anger/frustration: IF YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING, DON'T USE IT.

2) It's a ROLEPLAYING GAME, comparing real-world situations and citing anecdotal evidence from our outstanding armed forces is ridiculous. It's an RPG, not a simulator, it doesn't require realism.

The first time we tried it according to the rules we got overrun and slaughtered.

3) If you get slaughtered then you didn't use your brains as gamers, Sorry, but thems the facts. No missile volleys and MDC armor are going to save you in Dead Reign. This game is NOT about racking up a tally of kills--it's about surviving.

4) The zombies in Dead Reign are INCREDIBLY hard to kill and the game designers had to change the basic structure of the rules to make that possible. If no rules change had taken place you'd still have many players stat-crunching P.P. and other stuff to maximize their character's strike bonus...and Dead Reign would be little more than an alternate setting for BTS.

Up to GMing a Dead Reign PBP game?

[ghost2020]

"...and Dead Reign would be little more than an alternate setting for BTS."


That's the way it should be.
Just source books detailing alternate settings and ideas.
Not a whole different rulebook.

[Augur]

"...and Dead Reign would be little more than an alternate setting for BTS."

That's the way it should be.
Just source books detailing alternate settings and ideas.
Not a whole different rulebook.

"That's the way it should be." --This is determined by the folks holding the intellectual properties and the economic risks if a book FAILS.

If that's all you want...I hope you've got a subscription to the Rifter. Because that's what the Rifter often offers. Besides, alternate settings are incredibly EASY to come up with. Want one for free? Take these Zombies and drop them into a BTS game; Or HU2 game setting; or Recon (Charlie's undead! RUN!)

Try unleashing YOUR imagination. Trust me, you might just come up with something cooler than these stupid published writers who get crap wrong all the time. *That's sarcasm NMI, just FYI*

Dead Reign may have initially been intended as a supplement to BTS but it was evolved into it's own game.

Now, I'm not one of the writers responsible and I hold no I.P. here, but I'd wager this was developed into a full-fledged game rather than as just a sourcebook for a niche game (BTS) for a couple reasons.

1) Zombies have been a "hot" genre for a while now and are only increasing in popularity. (Sell what's popular! = $$$)
2) The BTS line is a much-loved line by a number of us die-hard Palladium gamers. However, our economic resources are finite and fairly limited. What Palladium Books needs is to find new customers in addition to keeping its rabid fan-base happy. Introducing a "ZOMBIE GAME" into a market that already has a few Zombie games is one way to take a bite out of that market and find new customers.
3) Above all, BTS is not a big seller. I love it, many of us rabid Palladium gamers love it, but it doesn't have broad appeal. We're unlikely to see a BTS product until Palladium is in sound economic shape once again.

[ghost2020]

Yeah, I get it. It's also not the only publishing model as many have expressed here.
Single rule set, many supplements, rather than multiple rule supplements.

And please, if you don't mind can you dial back the 'Unleash YOUR imagination' business.
The snarkiness is not appreciated.

[Augur]

The problem I have with the rule is that it's a natural roll as written and does not allow for bonuses. I think it's one of those things Kevin came up with, never bothered to seriously playtest, and tossed out there because he thought it was a good idea. Just my suspician. Sort of like how that -10 to dodge vs. ranged attacks without any bonuses suddenly appeared in the rules and had people looking at RIFTS Japan way back in the day going "huh???". Defense becoming pointless in gunfights for people who insist on canon rules and often leading to fights going to he with the most durability (MDC or SDC) or who wins initiative. It's also incidently lead to characters with guns dropping non-combat optimized characters with one shot after an initiative roll with literally nothing the support guy can do to defend himself. Leading to even more of a demise of so called "real role players" in Palladium games. (referance to the old Real Men, Real Role Players, Loonies, and Munchkins schtick).

None the less I guess it's sort of playable and apparently we're going to give it a spin on EU using the canon rules. I plan to change things again for my own, purely personal, campaigns (which will usually be some kind of crossover anyway, like say with BTS).

In general I think it's funny that the Reaper guy gives advice on killing zombies and is saying "yeah well this shotgun is great, takes out a zombie with only two or three shots to the head". Okay yeah, let's see someone make three headshots under these rules before they become Zombie Chow reliably. That's someone cheating if there ever was. Not to mention suspending disbelief about a shotgun blast to the head being more than likely not to destroy the head (I mean it might not, but usually it will).

That said it's a recurring joke that at least with firearms in Dead Reign the best thing to do is arguably the exact opposite of what the "experts" say (which seems to be written before Kevin finalized the rules). The Leader of The Reapers perhaps being a Death Cultist trying to increase the zombie population with his guide.

See, the best way to survive Dead Reign is not to miss the head. It seems to be to hammer the main body to render the zombie inert for a while. Yes it will get back up (eventually) but your ultimatly either trying to escape to accomplish some goal, or if your putting them down you can then walk up and crush the head while it's down.

Ultimatly your going to want weapons with the longest possible ranges to engage. For hammering the main body down things like SMGs and Assault Rifles are among the best choices for weapons. Shotguns are nice too of course simply because of the damage, but given the option and Ammo I'd probably still rather pack an Assault Rifle or some kind of huge bore hunting rifle (which to be fair is mentioned as being decent in this latter case).

At least that is how the mechanics seem to me. The whole "Shoot 'em in the head, SHOOT 'EM IN THE HEAD!!!" thing doesn't seem to be practical, and I imagine you won't see too many players going "BOOM! Headshot" as they roll the dice, at least under the existing rules.

This game was play-tested thoroughly, whether that was the case once rules tweaks were finalized I cannot say.

Hitting zombies from a distance is only sensible! You're damn right! I've only GM'd only one session so far and killing zombies at range is an ammo-consuming but fairly non-threatening way to dispatch them. You don't even have to be that far away...a few hundred feet is a fair enough distance to take down a small group before they can harm a small party. (Unless there's a Thinker among 'em )

HOWEVER, once your characters are forced to engage zombies at close range (city streets, etc.) that crap changes FAST. You no longer have the luxury of emptying a full magazine in the corpsified chest of a zombie--it takes too damn long. You have 30 seconds to waste that frakker or else things will get exponentially worse.

[Michael Barakofsky]

Well I haven't read the whole thread but I feel compelled to throw in my 2 cents worth.

Under normal situations and conditions where range and freedom to move is on the side of the players I ignore the Nat 17 or better rule to hit. I apply normal called shot rules 12 or better to hit with a 15 needed to inflict damage and all bonuses apply. The head being a small target incurs a -3 on the strike roll.

When the zombies get up close, melee range 4 feet or less, as long as there are no more than 2 vs a single PC I follow the above ruleing.

If there are 3 or more zombies at close range due to lack of mobility and that they are constantly lunging, biting, clawing, etc. THEN and ONLY THEN do I apply Palladiums Nat 17 rule due to the chaos of being surrounded by zombies and only to the specific character that is up to his eyeballs in drek.

I have also finally found a use for Palladiums Compendium of Contemporary Weapons. With minor modification this book marries up to DR perfectly. In the compendium as well as other Palladium titles firearms have a notation called "Penetration Value" but this value doesn't seem to have any true bearing on game mechanics that I have noticed. Well in my DR campaign it finally does. The PV of a firearm ANY firearm reduces the zombie AR by its amount, then if the natural roll to strike (no bonuses) goes over this modified AR the shot inflicts FULL normal damage, if the natural roll DOES NOT go over the modified AR but with strike with bonuses added it does then the damage is 1/2 what is rolled.

[sHaka]

I'm at work, but i think the zombie combat rules on Page 183(?) contain bonuses for being at point blank range and providing a bonuses to hit, even on called shots (and explicitly, even to the head).

I can't remember the exact bonuses, but this means that the natural to-hit range (normally 17-20) to hit the head gets extended the closer you get. This might go some way to assuage the frustration many feel towards the head shot rules, though I know this still doesn't take firearms skill into account.

[Thinyser]

OK i've still been reading the responses and I like some of the things I've seen.

We have it on good authority that the headshot mechanics are broken. Thanks for your candid opinion Josh.

I also like the use of PV value as given in CoCW as well as the natural 17+ applying only under extreme stress situations, Thanks for the ideas Michael Barakofsky... personally I'd make some sort of a HF check to see if they can keep their cool under pressure and still not need to resort to unmodified die rolls. Fail your save vs HF you are using 17+ unmodified die rolls, make the save and you keep your bonuses. You only have to roll for HF when there are 3+ zed within melee range and as experience inceases so does your chance to save. After a few levels its gets to be more of a "Hey I've been through tough situaitons before this aint no big thing".

[Brian Manning]

It still doesn't play right, I broke down and ran a game of the Kevin Version and the "Head Shot Rules" just don't flow very well.

Like I said when it came out, the game is fun and playable my only complaint is the setting, but the 'Head Shot Rules" are broken IMO.

That isn't me being angry folks, it's just an honest game play critique.

Yeah, obviously most people don't like the rule (although there are a few that do like them, or like me would play/run it either way), but more than the headshot rules I think that the called and aimed shot rules are what makes headshots much less effective, for the most part. *about to repeat myself, so I apologize* I think that even though the main body is tougher than the head, and it doesn't de-animate them permanently, center mass is still (IMO obviously) a much jucier target. It takes one action (or 2 if you use an aimed shot), you get regular bonuses, and you get to use bursts for greater damage.

Perhaps you can use the natural 17+ if you fail your HF check. the way I like to think about combat in Palladium (obviously movie inspired, not real-world) is the character keeps a solid base/stance while scanning the area, bringing the weapon up to fire at targets, so you've got a pretty stable shot (standard bonuses apply). If they fail their HF check, they move much more erratic (staggering, moving too much, etc), or don't concentrate on the area for viable targets (no bonuses).

Something I suggested in another thread in here is a way to reduce the number of required actions to make called and aimed shots. Here's what I was thinking. All three of these options take only one action/attack:

Normal Attack - full standard bonuses
Aimed OR Called Shot - full bonuses + called shot OR bonus for aimed shot, -5 dodge until next available action
Aimed AND Called Shot - full bonuses + called shot + aim bonus, no dodge and -5 parry until next available action.

Here's my reasoning. most trained characters will be able to remain mobile to allow them to dodge/parry, but still gives them a good base or stance to fire fairly quickly and accurately. If they plant their heels to take a steadier shot (aimed) or focus on a smaller target (called), they have the ability to make the shot easier, but sacrifice some mobility (dodge penalty). If they want to really steady their posture (kneeling, bracing, etc) the can make much more difficult shots, but sacrifice their full mobility (no dodge, but can still parry with a penalty). All of these take one action which makes the gamble for headshots much easier to swallow (since you'll most likely using parry rather than dodge against zombies). Then you can focus on tweaking the natural 17+ rule.

I tried to keep this short enough, so you guys don't get bored half way through (tldr; )

[ghost2020]

We're just going to add the PP bonus to shoot (which is how it should be).

We use an expanded attribute chart that we found online.

Most PP in our games don't end up being that high anyway.

So a modified 17 to hit isn't that horrible, but still hard to hit without aiming.

[DtMK]

Prepare yourselves friends, gamers, players and GM's, for there are TWO bombshells that are about to be dropped! In my group, we have many of the Palladium books, and have come to one main rule: Many of the books have concurrent rules, but when one doesn't make sense or add up with the already existing rules, make up your own mind and pick what rules work for you.

Bombshell number one comes from Heroes/Villains Unlimited. Namely, the original Point Blank shot. According to this, if you are withing 10 feet of your quarry and fire, barring rolling under the AR to strike on an aimed shot, let's face it, this is an aimed shot, then the shell does FULL damage to SDC, and HALF to Hit Points. This means if a gun does 3D6 damage, then within 10 feet, you do 18 SDC AND 9 HP damage. I have this rule, as well as the NO bonuses and -8 to dodge for firearms in my games because GUNS ARE LETHAL. The exception to this is if the character has any extraordinary speed, PP ability and heightened senses. Then the no bonuses is not in effect, but the player gets a -8 to dodge.

Bombshell number two is a BIG one, that comes to us from Palladium Fantasy RPG. Are you ready? It's W.P. Modern Weapons(firearms). Basically it means that this single skill answers the question people have had with firearms vs. melee and other weapons like bows, crossbows and thrown items. This skill states you don't have to know how to clean, repair or even reload anything you point at, pull the trigger and go BANG with. You're at a disadvantage unless you tinker with it, but with this single W.P., it clearly states in a Palladium setting that P.P. Bonuess DO APPLY. But in my game, it would have to make sense. Someone who has played with toy guns, BB guns as well as regular firearms, Gunslingers, Weapons Masters in HU, and sharpshooters would all have access to this, as well as their normal W.P.'s. My current NPC happened to learn from a guy who has played with medieval weapons, had target practice on the weekends, and is an avid golfer. Combine all this, you have someone who SHOULD know how to aim and hit something with hand-eye coordination.

There are your bombshells. Feel free to drop them on some zombies. Oh by the way...you're all welcome.

[Brian Manning]

LOL *sounds of classroom full of kids* "Thanks DtMK." I forgot about the point blank rule from Villains Unlimited. I thought that was just a house rule that we added somewhere down the line (but it makes sense, since we used HU, VU and N&SS all the time). Not a bad idea, though. The PP bonus one, however...I can go either way on that. I mean it makes sense, but then again, I've been playing/running Palladium games for years, and it's never really been an issue.

[DtMK]

Prepare yourselves friends, gamers, players and GM's, for there are TWO bombshells that are about to be dropped! In my group, we have many of the Palladium books, and have come to one main rule: Many of the books have concurrent rules, but when one doesn't make sense or add up with the already existing rules, make up your own mind and pick what rules work for you.

Bombshell number one comes from Heroes/Villains Unlimited. Namely, the original Point Blank shot. According to this, if you are withing 10 feet of your quarry and fire, barring rolling under the AR to strike on an aimed shot, let's face it, this is an aimed shot, then the shell does FULL damage to SDC, and HALF to Hit Points. This means if a gun does 3D6 damage, then within 10 feet, you do 18 SDC AND 9 HP damage. I have this rule, as well as the NO bonuses and -8 to dodge for firearms in my games because GUNS ARE LETHAL. The exception to this is if the character has any extraordinary speed, PP ability and heightened senses. Then the no bonuses is not in effect, but the player gets a -8 to dodge.

Bombshell number two is a BIG one, that comes to us from Palladium Fantasy RPG. Are you ready? It's W.P. Modern Weapons(firearms). Basically it means that this single skill answers the question people have had with firearms vs. melee and other weapons like bows, crossbows and thrown items. This skill states you don't have to know how to clean, repair or even reload anything you point at, pull the trigger and go BANG with. You're at a disadvantage unless you tinker with it, but with this single W.P., it clearly states in a Palladium setting that P.P. Bonuses DO APPLY. But in my game, it would have to make sense. Someone who has played with toy guns, BB guns as well as regular firearms, Gunslingers, Weapons Masters in HU, and sharpshooters would all have access to this, as well as their normal W.P.'s. My current NPC happened to learn from a guy who has played with medieval weapons, had target practice on the weekends, and is an avid golfer. Combine all this, you have someone who SHOULD know how to aim and hit something with hand-eye coordination.

There are your bombshells. Feel free to drop them on some zombies. Oh by the way...you're all welcome.

And that ladies and gentleman is why Mr. Dave the Munchkin Killer rules.

Awww thanks man! It's that kind of praise that keeps me coming back!

[Augur]

I have also finally found a use for Palladiums Compendium of Contemporary Weapons. With minor modification this book marries up to DR perfectly. In the compendium as well as other Palladium titles firearms have a notation called "Penetration Value" but this value doesn't seem to have any true bearing on game mechanics that I have noticed. Well in my DR campaign it finally does. The PV of a firearm ANY firearm reduces the zombie AR by its amount, then if the natural roll to strike (no bonuses) goes over this modified AR the shot inflicts FULL normal damage, if the natural roll DOES NOT go over the modified AR but with strike with bonuses added it does then the damage is 1/2 what is rolled.

Oooh, methinks I like that idea!
That definitely bears running by my IRL group and perhaps even the Dead Reign PBP game starting soon on www.explorersunlimited.com/ow

[Kelorin]

Doesn't the natural 17 to hit the head work like armor rating (A.R.)? Which is to say that it isn't really any harder to hit a zombie head. It IS harder to hit a zombie head in way that is going to damage it. Kind of like natural armor rating for armored creatures.

ie: Character shoots a zombie in the head from long range with a sniper rifle, using Sniper skill, and takes the time & additional actions to aim the shot. Natural die roll is 13. Bonuses added for Weapon Profiency: +1. Bonuses added for aiming: +2. Bonuses added for using Sniper skill: +2. Total modified to hit score: 18. Result: Zombie gets hit in the head, but roll was not natural. Zombie is hit but takes no significant damage; don't roll for damage.

Functionally, the effect is the same - Zombie doesn't take any damage to the head. But in game, it still means that your Marine Force Recon snipers are still hitting the mark, just not in a way that hurt the Zed.

[ghost2020]

Ya know who we can blame for this?

All the 'playtesters' at the cons who told Kevin not to change anything when he asked about it. They are the ones who told him to keep it difficult.

So that makes me wonder, was he using the rules out of the book? Or a very lite and glossed over version? I seriously wonder if there is that much number crunching for bonuses during one of his games.

[Michael Barakofsky]

I have been reading this thread for a while now and I think I might have noticed something. I don't remember which book it was but several years ago I read in a Palladium title that making head shots were considered difficult incurring a -3 to the strike roll. If you combine that -3 with the zombie AR of 14 you get the 17 that the DR book indicates. I don't know how or where Kevin came up with the whole NATURAL roll thing in this case, personally I find it a bunch of bologna. So I ignore the natural part and allow bonuses to apply as well as reducing the AR by the penetration value of the weapon being fired.

Though I did keep the Nat 17 thing but changed it to fit more realisticly to what I would consider difficult situations.

That being said MAYBE (fingers & toes crossed on this one) Kevin was not paying attention when he placed the "natural" ruling into the book.

[cornholioprime]

Doesn't the natural 17 to hit the head work like armor rating (A.R.)? Which is to say that it isn't really any harder to hit a zombie head. It IS harder to hit a zombie head in way that is going to damage it. Kind of like natural armor rating for armored creatures.

ie: Character shoots a zombie in the head from long range with a sniper rifle, using Sniper skill, and takes the time & additional actions to aim the shot. Natural die roll is 13. Bonuses added for Weapon Profiency: +1. Bonuses added for aiming: +2. Bonuses added for using Sniper skill: +2. Total modified to hit score: 18. Result: Zombie gets hit in the head, but roll was not natural. Zombie is hit but takes no significant damage; don't roll for damage.

Functionally, the effect is the same - Zombie doesn't take any damage to the head. But in game, it still means that your Marine Force Recon snipers are still hitting the mark, just not in a way that hurt the Zed.

Agreed.

What we don't understand (or seem to), is that for us, Head Shots are an instant showstopper because our living Brains shut down under any serious amount of trauma.

The Brains of the Undead, however, are under no such constraint to their functionality....and even many of us who are well-versed in (real world) weapons seemingly forget that not all that many Head Shots actually clear out the contents of the skull.

Kevin's Game Mechanics, while reported to the rest of us as being difficult to use as-is In Game by those folks who have reported to this Thread, do seem to have some sort of purpose in showing us just how hard it would actually be "in Real Life" to take down the undead.....