Called Missile Shots

[SkyeFyre]

Are they possible? I was wondering because I was reading the description of the Glitterboy Killer and it states that it has plasma missiles for the purpose of destroying the boomgun. Then I was reading some of the arguments in the simul. strike topic and it got me to thinking. If you can't do a called shot with missiles, then what's the point of giving the missiles to the GBK and stating in the description that they're supposed to be used for called shots to the boomgun, and then have the rules say that you cannot, or rather that all missiles always hit main body?

[Dog_O_War]

Yes. The reasoning being that I have yet to read a rule that states the contrary, though I'm not sure if a volley would fall under "burst" due to the multiple projectiles and all.

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 362

Note: All missiles always strike the main body

[SkyeFyre]

RUE 362

Note: All missiles always strike the main body

CWC 110

"The standard tactic of the Glitter Boy Killer is to target and destroy the Boom Gun, first with missiles, then with other weapons."

[Kryzbyn]

RUE 362

Note: All missiles always strike the main body

CWC 110

"The standard tactic of the Glitter Boy Killer is to target and destroy the Boom Gun, first with missiles, then with other weapons."

Looks like whoever wrote that bit forgot to check the rules first.
Regardless, RUE trumps CWC.

[Killer Cyborg]

Are they possible? I was wondering because I was reading the description of the Glitterboy Killer and it states that it has plasma missiles for the purpose of destroying the boomgun. Then I was reading some of the arguments in the simul. strike topic and it got me to thinking. If you can't do a called shot with missiles, then what's the point of giving the missiles to the GBK and stating in the description that they're supposed to be used for called shots to the boomgun, and then have the rules say that you cannot, or rather that all missiles always hit main body?

I'd say that one of two things has happened there:
1. The author of that book didn't know the rules.
2. The rules used to permit missiles to make Called Shots, back when CWC was written, but the rules got revised under RUE.

Here's the basic history of Called Shots in Rifts:
Main Book: Called Shots were described in the Robot/Vehicle combat section, but the description was pretty vague.

SB1: On page 9, it goes into more detail on Called Shots, and says (italics added):

Note: Pluses or minuses may apply to the called shot depending on whether the attack is an aimed, burst or wild shot and depending on the size and/or protection of the target."

Which means that, at that time, Called Shots could be bursts or single shots.

CB1: Page 12 says:

A called shot is an aimed shot that indicates the shooter is aiming for a specific target area within a larger target, like a head, hand, antenna, weapon, etc. To make a called shot, the shooter must "call"/identify the specific target before he fires, take careful aim, and shoot.

and

To strike something other than the main body, the attacker must make an aimed, called shot, or roll a natural twenty.

Which seems pretty clear: Called Shots had to be aimed shots only.
(Perhaps too many people were unloading entire clips at other people's heads)

RGMG:
Page 39

A "Called Shot" is an aimed shot that homes in on a specific part of a larger target...

Which seems pretty straightforward: A Called Shot is a kind of Aimed Shot.
Until....

Anybody can attempt an aimed or Called Shot," even with a burst.

And, on p. 40, repeats the part from SB1:

To strike something other than the main body, the attacker must make an aimed, called shot, or roll a natural twenty.

So where we're left is that a Called Shot must be aimed; that much is clear.
But we're also left with the passage indicating that you can make aimed and/or called shots with a burst, which is confusing.
Especially since the book also states (p. 40):

The aimed shot is always a careful and deliberate act of targeting and the shooting of one round/bullet or a single energy blast.

Pretty much everything is all in line, except that part about being able to make aimed/called bursts; that directly conflicts with other passages in the same book.

RUE:
Page 361-

Only a single shot can be accurately "Aimed" (no bursts or shooting wild).

A Carefully Aimed and Called Shot also gets the +2 bonus to Aim but counts as three melee attacks/actions. On the other hand, a quickly aimed Called Shot only counts as two melee attacks, but does not count as a true Aimed shot and does NOT get the +2 bonus to strike.

Some modern lasers and other energy weapons fire 3-4 instantaneous energy pulses at the same target. This happens so fast it is not even considered to be a burst, but a single, heavy blast. It counts as one melee attack and suffers no penalties to strike except on an Aimed or Called Shot, in which case any strike bonus is reduced by half (round down).

So as of RUE, we know that:
-Only single shots can be Aimed shots.
-Pulse weapons count as single shots, and can be Called Shots.

I don't know of any passage that directly addresses whether or not Bursts can currently be Called Shots. My guess is that they do not (unless they're a pulse weapon).

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 362

Note: All missiles always strike the main body

CWC 110

"The standard tactic of the Glitter Boy Killer is to target and destroy the Boom Gun, first with missiles, then with other weapons."

That just leaves the GBK with a standard tactic that doesn't work.

[Library Ogre]

One of our uses for the Weapons System skill is to allow missiles to strike parts other than the main body. Takes longer, but its more effective.

[Astral_Explorer]

Well the Boom Gun has less armor then the whole Glitterboy so a volley of plasma missles might melt the mighty gun down enough to make it useless thus making the Glitterboy a slow suit with limited utility. Though if it strikes only the main body instead of damaging everything in it's radius it is possible they just mean the Missles even the RANGE playing field the Boom gun usually has.

[Dr. Doom III]

Guided missiles always strike the main body.
Unguided missiles, like mini-missiles that are fired like bullets from a gun can be aimed just like a bullet.

[Natasha]

Depends upon the guidance system.
I mean, if you wanna be logical about it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Guided missiles always strike the main body.
Unguided missiles, like mini-missiles that are fired like bullets from a gun can be aimed just like a bullet.

The same thought occurred to me, actually.
Because even though the book quite clearly states "ALL missiles," there have been passages in past books that said "all missiles," but that did not refer to mini-missiles.

For example, Rifts, p. 42
"2. All missiles are self-guided; +3 to strike."
and later:
"Unlike its larger predecessors, the mini-missile is NOT self-guided and has no special bonuses to strike."

BUT as of RUE, mini-missiles are no longer the only unguided missiles.
RUE 363:

"Smart Missiles" and guided missiles are a rarity on Rifts earth and typically reserved only for the largest (and again, rarest) of long-range missiles.

P. 364 elaborates, explaining that most missiles on Rifts Earth are NOT guided.

So I don't believe that the "All missiles always strike the main body" was referring only to guided/smart missiles, because then the writers would have to be using the word "all" to mean "Only large and very rare Long Range."

[Kagashi]

I rank the "All missiles hitting the main body" rule right up next to the GI Joe and -10 to dodge rules...I dont use em.

I believe that rule to be a victim of cut and paste. As Rifts has developed over the years, the rules changed (hence why we see RUE today...). That one legacy line simply squeezed past the editor (judging by first printing, wasnt very hard to do).

Anyway, in reality, missiles, guided or not, can hit anywhere, just as a bullet if aimed right. Ever see that footage of Desert Storm? Id say that was fairly accurate aiming.... I saw missiles hitting doors to hangars, not the "main body" (well, saw that too...)

So, the GBK's tactic is valid in my book.

[Dead Boy]

RUE 362

Note: All missiles always strike the main body

Ahhhhh, but mini-missiles are another mater altogether. Remember, mini-missiles are not missiles. They're related and kissing cousins, but are treated differently. Mini-Missiles are described as "bazooka type rockets" (RUE 365) meaning they have no guidance systems... they're point and shoot. Even if the "pointing" mechanism is more sophisticated than actually pointing the muzzle of a weapon, they still go from A to B in a direct linear manner. The section goes on to say "Unlike its lager predecessors, the mini-missile is not self-guided..." (RUE 365) and requires the Heavy MD Weapons skill to use. As such they can be be used in a called shot just like any other weapon that requires that skill (or any modern WP for that matter).

As for making Called Shots, they can be fired in bursts, no problem. It's only when you add the "Aim" component is when you're reduced to firing single shots only. For as it says under Aimed Shot Bonus, "...no bursts or shooting wild" (RUE 361), implying that when you're NOT using an Aimed shot bursts and shooting wild are permissible. Way back in the original Rifts Main Book they were limited to firing just two mini-missiles at a time with an aimed shot (then commonly translated into also meaning Called Shots), but RUE and the current agreeing rule books have since changed that, stripping away that limitation.

Now, as to how this applies to the Glitter Boy Killer, since Mini-Missiles can be used in Called Shots, and since they can be fired in sizable bursts/volleys, it is now possible for the GBK to use the anti-Glitter-Boy tactic detailed in CWC to great effect. Taking the two melee actions to set-up and fire the Called Shot (factoring in the -4 to hit the GB's boom gun), they can fire off the called volley of 5 plasma mini-missiles and have even odds of the blast reducing the Boom Gun's MDC to exactly zero. And should they miss or not do enough damage by chance, they have 5 more mini-missiles in reserve to try again, (though frankly I don't know why the GBK only had 10 mini-missiles when even the Terror Trooper has 20). And if that still doesn't do the job (defensive actions may spoil the attempt) ... well that's why they're deployed in pairs so they can double team each GB in the field.

EDIT: Oh, and for the poll I voted "No", because KC is right in that true missiles always hit the main body.

[Dog_O_War]

RUE 362

Note: All missiles always strike the main body

While I clearly stand corrected, I have to chime in that this is complete crap. Mini-missiles are little more than dummy-rockets, which strike exactly where you aim them - so clearly there is a rules conflict going on here.


*EDIT* And apon reading the above post, and the post quoted in it - I find exactly where the conflict (and resolution) is made. Also, this makes the poll lack all the relevant information to be deemed accurate - It seems that no matter how you vote you will be right in one way or another. Everybodies' a winner!

[Killer Cyborg]

I rank the "All missiles hitting the main body" rule right up next to the GI Joe and -10 to dodge rules...I dont use em.

I believe that rule to be a victim of cut and paste. As Rifts has developed over the years, the rules changed (hence why we see RUE today...). That one legacy line simply squeezed past the editor (judging by first printing, wasnt very hard to do).

Except that the line I quoted has not, that I'm aware of, been written that way before.

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 362

Note: All missiles always strike the main body

Ahhhhh, but mini-missiles are another mater altogether. Remember, mini-missiles are not missiles. They're related and kissing cousins, but are treated differently. Mini-Missiles are described as "bazooka type rockets" (RUE 365) meaning they have no guidance systems... they're point and shoot. Even if the "pointing" mechanism is more sophisticated than actually pointing the muzzle of a weapon, they still go from A to B in a direct linear manner. The section goes on to say "Unlike its lager predecessors, the mini-missile is not self-guided..." (RUE 365) and requires the Heavy MD Weapons skill to use. As such they can be be used in a called shot just like any other weapon that requires that skill (or any modern WP for that matter).

"Unlike its larger predecessors, the mini-missile is NOT self-guided and has no special bonuses to strike."

BUT as of RUE, mini-missiles are no longer the only unguided missiles.
RUE 363:

"Smart Missiles" and guided missiles are a rarity on Rifts earth and typically reserved only for the largest (and again, rarest) of long-range missiles.

P. 364 elaborates, explaining that most missiles on Rifts Earth are NOT guided.

So I don't believe that the "All missiles always strike the main body" was referring only to guided/smart missiles, because then the writers would have to be using the word "all" to mean "Only large and very rare Long Range."

[Kryzbyn]

Are they possible? I was wondering because I was reading the description of the Glitterboy Killer and it states that it has plasma missiles for the purpose of destroying the boomgun. Then I was reading some of the arguments in the simul. strike topic and it got me to thinking. If you can't do a called shot with missiles, then what's the point of giving the missiles to the GBK and stating in the description that they're supposed to be used for called shots to the boomgun, and then have the rules say that you cannot, or rather that all missiles always hit main body?

I will say that I do not consider aiming for teh boom gun with their mini missles a called shot requiring two actions b/c the boom gun is so large.....................it would be the same thing as someone saying they want to shoot the soldier hitching a ride on top of the tank. They're shooting at a large object on top of another larger object.

I have to disagree with this because of the vast difference in proportion here. Sure the gun is big, but so is the GB. The soldier in your example is sitting on the tank, he goes where the tank goes and is an easier shot because he presents an obvious silhouette. The boom gun, by comparison, moves whenever the GB's arm does and can move around quite often at different angles. Merely saying you're shooting the gun and not the GB doesn't work, especially since it's only located on one side of the GB. To use your soldier analogy it'd be like trying to shoot a soldier who was sitting on the opposite side of the tank turret between you and tank. You can see him, sure, but his profile is reduced so you actually have to aim in on the specific target.

You are correct, profile of the GB and the angle at which he faces you would come into consideration if it would be called or not.

If teh GB is just standing there with his gun in a down position, or if you're a sam where you're flying around on the side of the GB and he hasn't faced you yet ect...........I'd say it's not called, but if the long narrow part of the gun is facing you, then yes it would be called..............situation by situation basis...........so sometimes it should be called, and sometimes it shouldn't.

Do you guys actually believe what you type or just backup an idea/rule that benefits the style you play in order to defeat foes?

[Kryzbyn]

I believe that the notion of guided missiles ONLY being able to hit the main body of anything is a terrible rule concept when even in the 90's when Rifts was first written we had laser guided missiles that could go through a building's window to hit a target inside and TOW missiles which could be guided onto a person riding a tank. Just like it's stupid to assume that a weapon with an explosive radius of 60ft is ONLY going to hit the main body and nothing else. Yeah...because napalm only would hit the shirts or flak jackets of the people it was dropped on.

As for making called shots with mini-missiles, I also firmly believe this because it's not even a missile, it's just a rocket. Point, click, done. It's not going to specifically home in on someone's chest armor, it's going to go where you pointed it. If the target is still there when it hits, then it hits what it was aimed at. It's not going to suddenly drop 2ft before impact to only strike main body.

Then we come to making called shots for the boom gun. Yes, I think it's a called shot because of design and placement of the weapon.

The biggest misconception ya'll have is that the Main Body is just the chest.
Main Body is the overall value of MDC the armor or whatever has. It's not the chest. The values for other parts are there in case of called shots.
Therefore, when you hit a GB with a AOE weapon the damage is taken off of the main body, not each individual part, because that would be redundant. If you snipe a GB's hand and make a called shot then use the value given for the hand alone.
This is why I believe the rules state, all missiles hit the main body.

[Killer Cyborg]

by all means please demonstrate where it says that main body does not mean torso if there are other values present.

In a car.

I am aware there are no limb called shots when there are no stats available for said limbs, but main body is definintely not "everything totalled" when the stats are presented right by it.

You are correct.
This is easily confirmed by comparing the main body MDC of various armors and vehicles vs. the total MDC of all their other parts.

[Kryzbyn]

I believe that the notion of guided missiles ONLY being able to hit the main body of anything is a terrible rule concept when even in the 90's when Rifts was first written we had laser guided missiles that could go through a building's window to hit a target inside and TOW missiles which could be guided onto a person riding a tank. Just like it's stupid to assume that a weapon with an explosive radius of 60ft is ONLY going to hit the main body and nothing else. Yeah...because napalm only would hit the shirts or flak jackets of the people it was dropped on.

As for making called shots with mini-missiles, I also firmly believe this because it's not even a missile, it's just a rocket. Point, click, done. It's not going to specifically home in on someone's chest armor, it's going to go where you pointed it. If the target is still there when it hits, then it hits what it was aimed at. It's not going to suddenly drop 2ft before impact to only strike main body.

Then we come to making called shots for the boom gun. Yes, I think it's a called shot because of design and placement of the weapon.

The biggest misconception ya'll have is that the Main Body is just the chest.
Main Body is the overall value of MDC the armor or whatever has. It's not the chest. The values for other parts are there in case of called shots.
Therefore, when you hit a GB with a AOE weapon the damage is taken off of the main body, not each individual part, because that would be redundant. If you snipe a GB's hand and make a called shot then use the value given for the hand alone.
This is why I believe the rules state, all missiles hit the main body.

No, by all means please demonstrate where it says that main body does not mean torso if there are other values present. I am aware there are no limb called shots when there are no stats available for said limbs, but main body is definintely not "everything totalled" when the stats are presented right by it.

Please show me where it says that the other values are there only in the case of called shots. Show me where this is a misconception on my part and not an assumption on yours.

NP I'll dig through the books when I get home.

[Killer Cyborg]

by all means please demonstrate where it says that main body does not mean torso if there are other values present.

In a car.

Your car has a torso??

In the trunk, but that's not my point.

The point was that a car is a case where "main body does not mean torso" and where there are other values present.

[Natasha]

by all means please demonstrate where it says that main body does not mean torso if there are other values present.

In a car.

Your car has a torso??

In the trunk, but that's not my point.

The point was that a car is a case where "main body does not mean torso" and where there are other values present.

It was a joke. I got the sarcastic example.

Some cars have bras though.
I'm just saying...

[Kryzbyn]

Al, I was completely wrong. The main body is defined as the part of a vehicle or large robot/creature that "offers the biggest target, like chest or waist area".
My apologies.

[Dead Boy]

There is no -4 to strike the GB boom gun though...

Oops. You're right there. Thought it had an asterisk by the Boom Gun on the MDC by Location chart.

So I don't believe that the "All missiles always strike the main body" was referring only to guided/smart missiles, because then the writers would have to be using the word "all" to mean "Only large and very rare Long Range."

Maybe they do and maybe they don't in the absence of guidance systems (though technically in the absence of guidance systems they cease to be "missiles" and become "rockets"). But what I know for sure is mini-missiles are not true missiles, and therefore can be used in Called Shots. Thus the GBK finally an do the job was intended to do and its bad-ass potential is at last realized.

[jedi078]

If Palladium had rules for different kinds of guidance systems then this would be an easy matter to deal with. There is a webpage in the internet with a comprehensive list of guidance systems for missiles......

Anyhow mini-missiles must have some sort of guidance (probably laser guided) since many of the launchers are pointed off in a weird directions. The Glitter Boy Killer is a perfect example of this. Now if some mini-missiles are laser guided then it goes to say that they can be aimed at a specific target (i.e. a called shot). Granted this should be a single shot kinda thing, or conversely the GBK can dump a volley of missiles to land all around the Glitter Boy, kinda like an artillery barrage.

On the subject of a missiles only hitting the main body well that’s kinda dumb. All the GM needs to do is take into account of where and how the character is moving as they are dodging and subsequently struck. As for whole volleys hitting the main body? That’s even more dumb as the missiles are not going to hit the same exact place, they are going to land within a radius, so a good GM will have missile **** several different hit locations. This may be bad or good. Good in that the main body of the mecha/robot/PA is not depleted but bad in that an arm, legs sensor head or weapons systems may be destroyed. This doesn’t take into account of the blast radius of the missiles.

[Kryzbyn]

Well, a bazooka rocket goes 82 m/s or 270 fps, I figure this is equivalent to a mini missile. So it will take 21.5 seconds to cover a mile, giving the GB at least 1 full round of attacks to shoot it or them down if the pilot were so inclined. And that's assuming a non-ballistic trajectory, but a straight shot. The way the missiles are arranged on the GB KIller, they'd probably have at least a small ballistic trajectory, adding a couple precious seconds to flight time. The boom gun has a 2 mile range...so in order to deliver mini missiles to a GB, the Killer would need to be within a mile of the GB, because the mini missiles only have a range of 1 mile. Not a very reliable tactic, imho.

[Kryzbyn]

Well, a bazooka rocket goes 82 m/s or 270 fps, I figure this is equivalent to a mini missile. So it will take 21.5 seconds to cover a mile, giving the GB at least 1 full round of attacks to shoot it or them down if the pilot were so inclined. And that's assuming a non-ballistic trajectory, but a straight shot. The way the missiles are arranged on the GB KIller, they'd probably have at least a small ballistic trajectory, adding a couple precious seconds to flight time. The boom gun has a 2 mile range...so in order to deliver mini missiles to a GB, the Killer would need to be within a mile of the GB, because the mini missiles only have a range of 1 mile. Not a very reliable tactic, imho.

Where does everyone fight where their are 1+ mile plains all the time with a perfect line of sight??? .....lol.......

I believe I read teh average gunfight/tank fight/confrontation in wars usuallly was 300 yards. Exceptions of course are like Dessert Storm and the current campaign with our tanks b/c we were fighting in a perfect flat dessert, against a very inferior force.

If the GB can see the GB killer with such perfect sights, chances are the CS scouts already spotted that humongous shiny tank and the air strike it's on it's way.

If you want to be true to all physics you would have to take the earths curvature when shooting @ 2 miles witht that boom gun........not only that, I believe the optics only can go as far as 6000ft so how are you going to shoot something you can't see?? And even if the GB has radar, most Sams fly low to the ground slipping under radar, it's in their description that that's what they do.

CS AP mini missles travel at 1400 MPH or 2044 ft/sec
CS Plasma ones travel at 1200 MPH or 1752 ft/sec

Thanks for the actual speed of the mini missiles. I didn't see that anywhere.
Assuming you got them from the book
All, I'm saying is, a GB Killer has to get within range of the GB's boom gun to shoot it with missiles. Shirley, even you can grasp this concept.
As far as calling in air support to back up a GB killer...then why make GB Killers? If they are already supposed to take on GB's 2 to 1, I think the regional commander would be pissed to learn he has to spend even more of his assets taking out a GB.
As faras the flying under that radar bit...sure that might be possible. I don't think that tactic works vs. active radar, just passive. I'd also hope that in the golden age of man they'd have perfected ground radar and ID packages.

[Kryzbyn]

Thanks for the actual speed of the mini missiles. I didn't see that anywhere.
Assuming you got them from the book
All, I'm saying is, a GB Killer has to get within range of the GB's boom gun to shoot it with missiles. Shirley, even you can grasp this concept.
As far as calling in air support to back up a GB killer...then why make GB Killers? If they are already supposed to take on GB's 2 to 1, I think the regional commander would be pissed to learn he has to spend even more of his assets taking out a GB.
As faras the flying under that radar bit...sure that might be possible. I don't think that tactic works vs. active radar, just passive. I'd also hope that in the golden age of man they'd have perfected ground radar and ID packages.

yeah, speeds are from teh book.....RUE....

KS and others always have mentioned about how Sams avoid detection by flying under the radar, they did that on the Final Siege in Tolkeen and I"m sure Tolkeen had all the cutting edge technology, so clues would lead that nobody has ground radar and ID packages, especially considering there's no Sattatlites also to relay any kind of live recon.

Using many mini missles and possible death of a GB killer pilot is well worth the justification to call in a couple missles, the US army now uses F-16 bombs, helicopter missles, and the list goes on and on ...........just on small skirmishes to backup ther marines on the ground, I saw it the other day on the MIlitary channel just 2 days ago, used 2 F-16's, and a predator armed with missles just to take out a bunker that had a max of 6 bad guys with machine guns holding down the marines..................CS main tactic to save human life if the creation of skelebots that are expensive, the CS has no problem spending money to save human life.

Yes, but the 6 guys in the bunker have no chance of destroying the F-16's before they deliver thier bombs.
A GB could PWN 2 samas with a few well placed hits without offering any collateral damage, depending on the skills of all pilots concerned.

[Kryzbyn]

Yes, but the 6 guys in the bunker have no chance of destroying the F-16's before they deliver thier bombs.
A GB could PWN 2 samas with a few well placed hits without offering any collateral damage, depending on the skills of all pilots concerned.

I said Air Strike, not air support.

Launching Medium ranged missles from a tank or other format, or artillery strikes.

Assuming the large plains required for such a shot from teh GB of 2 miles like you mentioned. CS Scout climbs over small hill, scouts the area, sees GB, calls it in.

Or CS scout climbs hill sees GB...then gets taken out by one of the GB's companions...
We could discuss tactics all day, but really has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I started this tangent to point out that the GB Killers tactic to take out the gun in one fell swoop is problematic at best. In a wide open field of combat, almost no chance of success. In an urban setting, it gets a heck of a lot better. Again, depending on the skill of all the pilots involved.
You can add a whole lot of other factors, like air support or air strikes or artillery, etc., but then you can't assume the GB is alone either...

[Kryzbyn]

We could discuss tactics all day, but really has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

You can add a whole lot of other factors, like air support or air strikes or artillery, etc., but then you can't assume the GB is alone either...

Exactly my point, so to bringing in the whole "my boom gun has a two mile range" that everyone falls back on is moot.

While I can't assume the GB is alone, I can assume the CS counterpart will have more re-enforcements, better air superiority, and considered they're the biggest military nation with teh most combat experience, superior tactics.

Cept for Quebec.

[Killer Cyborg]

There is no -4 to strike the GB boom gun though...

Oops. You're right there. Thought it had an asterisk by the Boom Gun on the MDC by Location chart.

So I don't believe that the "All missiles always strike the main body" was referring only to guided/smart missiles, because then the writers would have to be using the word "all" to mean "Only large and very rare Long Range."

Maybe they do and maybe they don't in the absence of guidance systems (though technically in the absence of guidance systems they cease to be "missiles" and become "rockets"). But what I know for sure is mini-missiles are not true missiles, and therefore can be used in Called Shots. Thus the GBK finally an do the job was intended to do and its bad-ass potential is at last realized.

Find something in the book that says that mini-missiles can be used for Called Shots.

[Dog_O_War]

There is no -4 to strike the GB boom gun though...

Oops. You're right there. Thought it had an asterisk by the Boom Gun on the MDC by Location chart.

So I don't believe that the "All missiles always strike the main body" was referring only to guided/smart missiles, because then the writers would have to be using the word "all" to mean "Only large and very rare Long Range."

Maybe they do and maybe they don't in the absence of guidance systems (though technically in the absence of guidance systems they cease to be "missiles" and become "rockets"). But what I know for sure is mini-missiles are not true missiles, and therefore can be used in Called Shots. Thus the GBK finally an do the job was intended to do and its bad-ass potential is at last realized.

Find something in the book that says that mini-missiles can be used for Called Shots.

Mini-missiles are useable via the WP heavy MD weapons skill. You can make called shots with the heavy MD weapons skill, therefore you can make called shots with mini-missiles.

[Killer Cyborg]

Find something in the book that says that mini-missiles can be used for Called Shots.

Mini-missiles are useable via the WP heavy MD weapons skill. You can make called shots with the heavy MD weapons skill, therefore you can make called shots with mini-missiles.

Alright, let's examine that.

Your argument is:
-Mini-Missiles are usable via WP Heavy MD Weapons.
-Called Shots can be made using the Heavy MD Weapons skill
~Mini-missiles can be used for Called Shots.

The structure for that argument is:
-(Item X) is used by (Skill Y)
-(Skill Y) can be used for (Action Z)
~(Item X) can be used for (Action Z)

This doesn't exactly pan out, and this becomes clear when you substitute other specifics in for the variables.
For example:
-(Glitterboys) are used by (Pilot: Robots & Power Armor)
-(Pilot: Robots & Power Armor) can be used to (Fly).
~(Glitterboys) can be used to (Fly)

Or:
-(NG-P7s) are used by (the WP Heavy Energy skill)
-(The WP Heavy Energy skill) can be used to fire pulses.
~(NG-P7s) can be used to fire pulses.

So your argument is not valid.

On the other hand, this does not mean that it is necessarily wrong, so let's look at it a bit further:

The WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons skill includes
-plasma ejectors
-MD Rail Guns
-Rocket Launchers
-Mini-missile launchers
-weapon turrets and cannons built into (or which are a key part of) giant robots, tanks, aircraft and other combat vehicles.

So according to your argument, each of these can be used to make Called Shots.
Plasma ejectors? Sure.
MD Rail Guns? Not so sure; they're burst-firing weapons, and the question of whether or not you can make a Called Burst has no real answer at the moment (as detailed previously)
Rocket Launchers? This is weird, because I'm not sure what they mean here.
If they just mean "Missile Launchers," then that would mean that Called Shots can be made with any missile.
If they mean "un-guided missile" launcher, then that would mean that Called Shots can be made with pretty much any missile, which goes against the rule of Missiles always hitting the main body.
Or they might mean something else.
Personally, I think that they just mean "Missile Launchers."
Mini-missile launchers? Well, that's what we're debating.
Vehicular/Robotic Weapon Turrets/Cannons? Generally, I'd say not. I can't picture a Spider Skull Walker gunner saying, "I'm going to target that guy in Plastic Man armor with the main rail gun, and I'm gonna shoot him in the head.
I'll have to look through the books to research this one a bit more.

[Dog_O_War]

Find something in the book that says that mini-missiles can be used for Called Shots.

Mini-missiles are useable via the WP heavy MD weapons skill. You can make called shots with the heavy MD weapons skill, therefore you can make called shots with mini-missiles.

Alright, let's examine that.

Your argument is:
-Mini-Missiles are usable via WP Heavy MD Weapons.
-Called Shots can be made using the Heavy MD Weapons skill
~Mini-missiles can be used for Called Shots.

The structure for that argument is:
-(Item X) is used by (Skill Y)
-(Skill Y) can be used for (Action Z)
~(Item X) can be used for (Action Z)

This doesn't exactly pan out, and this becomes clear when you substitute other specifics in for the variables.
For example:
-(Glitterboys) are used by (Pilot: Robots & Power Armor)
-(Pilot: Robots & Power Armor) can be used to (Fly).
~(Glitterboys) can be used to (Fly)

Wrong. Powered armours with jet packs can be used to fly.

Therefore jet packs can be used to fly.
A glitterboy can fly if it has a jet pack.

Or:
-(NG-P7s) are used by (the WP Heavy Energy skill)
-(The WP Heavy Energy skill) can be used to fire pulses.
~(NG-P7s) can be used to fire pulses.

So your argument is not valid.

Wrong again. The WP heavy energy skill cannot fire pulses because it is a skill, not a weapon. It is valid because mini-missiles are weapons that can be used with multiple skills. While using weapons systems you cannot make called shots, but you can while using a mini-missile rifle.

Item X can be used for skill W or skill Y.
Skill Y can be used for action Z.
Item X can be used for action Z if used in conjunction with skill Y.

It is valid.

On the other hand, this does not mean that it is necessarily wrong, so let's look at it a bit further:

The WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons skill includes
-plasma ejectors
-MD Rail Guns
-Rocket Launchers
-Mini-missile launchers
-weapon turrets and cannons built into (or which are a key part of) giant robots, tanks, aircraft and other combat vehicles.

So according to your argument, each of these can be used to make Called Shots.
Plasma ejectors? Sure.
MD Rail Guns? Not so sure; they're burst-firing weapons,

Wrong again. Some are burst-firing weapons; look at the boomgun or that new NG model. Both are single-shot firing railguns that qualify for aimed firing.

...and the question of whether or not you can make a Called Burst has no real answer at the moment (as detailed previously)
Rocket Launchers? This is weird, because I'm not sure what they mean here.
If they just mean "Missile Launchers," then that would mean that Called Shots can be made with any missile.
If they mean "un-guided missile" launcher, then that would mean that Called Shots can be made with pretty much any missile, which goes against the rule of Missiles always hitting the main body.

They are un-guided missiles, as guided missiles have their own bonuses to strike as detailed under their descriptions. They strike a target you designate, but they are the "striker" if you will. Like a spotter, you just give them a target; they decide where to hit it (which unfortunately is in the main body, as detailed under the missiles section of combat).

[Killer Cyborg]

Find something in the book that says that mini-missiles can be used for Called Shots.

Mini-missiles are useable via the WP heavy MD weapons skill. You can make called shots with the heavy MD weapons skill, therefore you can make called shots with mini-missiles.

Alright, let's examine that.

Your argument is:
-Mini-Missiles are usable via WP Heavy MD Weapons.
-Called Shots can be made using the Heavy MD Weapons skill
~Mini-missiles can be used for Called Shots.

The structure for that argument is:
-(Item X) is used by (Skill Y)
-(Skill Y) can be used for (Action Z)
~(Item X) can be used for (Action Z)

This doesn't exactly pan out, and this becomes clear when you substitute other specifics in for the variables.
For example:
-(Glitterboys) are used by (Pilot: Robots & Power Armor)
-(Pilot: Robots & Power Armor) can be used to (Fly).
~(Glitterboys) can be used to (Fly)

Wrong. Powered armours with jet packs can be used to fly.

Therefore jet packs can be used to fly.
A glitterboy can fly if it has a jet pack.

Except that Glitterboys don't have jet packs.

Or:
-(NG-P7s) are used by (the WP Heavy Energy skill)
-(The WP Heavy Energy skill) can be used to fire pulses.
~(NG-P7s) can be used to fire pulses.

So your argument is not valid.

Wrong again. The WP heavy energy skill cannot fire pulses because it is a skill, not a weapon.

I never said that it fired pulses. I said that it can be USED TO FIRE PULSES.
You didn't see me jump in and say, "WP Heavy MD Weapons can't make simo-attacks, because it's skill, not a weapon," so cut the crap.

It is valid because mini-missiles are weapons that can be used with multiple skills. While using weapons systems you cannot make called shots, but you can while using a mini-missile rifle.

I don't think that the delivery system is the issue.
If you can make a Called Shot with a mini-missile rifle, why wouldn't you be able to make a Called Shot with a CR-1 mini-missile launcher?

Item X can be used for skill W or skill Y.
Skill Y can be used for action Z.
Item X can be used for action Z if used in conjunction with skill Y.

It is valid.

Not really.
Again, just plug some other stuff into the equation.

-(JA-11s) can be used for (WP Energy Rifle) or (WP Rifle)
-(WP Rifle) can be used for (firing Bursts of bullets)
~(JA-11s) can be used for (firing Bursts of bullets).

Doesn't pan out.

On the other hand, this does not mean that it is necessarily wrong, so let's look at it a bit further:

The WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons skill includes
-plasma ejectors
-MD Rail Guns
-Rocket Launchers
-Mini-missile launchers
-weapon turrets and cannons built into (or which are a key part of) giant robots, tanks, aircraft and other combat vehicles.

So according to your argument, each of these can be used to make Called Shots.
Plasma ejectors? Sure.
MD Rail Guns? Not so sure; they're burst-firing weapons,

Wrong again. Some are burst-firing weapons; look at the boomgun or that new NG model. Both are single-shot firing railguns that qualify for aimed firing.

The boomgun is messed up, because sometimes it's referred to as firing bursts, sometimes not.
I don't know about the new NG model, but it doesn't matter, because MOST railguns on most vehicles/robots DO fire bursts.

...and the question of whether or not you can make a Called Burst has no real answer at the moment (as detailed previously)
Rocket Launchers? This is weird, because I'm not sure what they mean here.
If they just mean "Missile Launchers," then that would mean that Called Shots can be made with any missile.
If they mean "un-guided missile" launcher, then that would mean that Called Shots can be made with pretty much any missile, which goes against the rule of Missiles always hitting the main body.

They are un-guided missiles, as guided missiles have their own bonuses to strike as detailed under their descriptions. They strike a target you designate, but they are the "striker" if you will. Like a spotter, you just give them a target; they decide where to hit it (which unfortunately is in the main body, as detailed under the missiles section of combat).

But you still need a Weapon Proficiency to fire them, regardless of which bonuses you use.

[Dog_O_War]

Find something in the book that says that mini-missiles can be used for Called Shots.

Mini-missiles are useable via the WP heavy MD weapons skill. You can make called shots with the heavy MD weapons skill, therefore you can make called shots with mini-missiles.

Alright, let's examine that.

Your argument is:
-Mini-Missiles are usable via WP Heavy MD Weapons.
-Called Shots can be made using the Heavy MD Weapons skill
~Mini-missiles can be used for Called Shots.

The structure for that argument is:
-(Item X) is used by (Skill Y)
-(Skill Y) can be used for (Action Z)
~(Item X) can be used for (Action Z)

This doesn't exactly pan out, and this becomes clear when you substitute other specifics in for the variables.
For example:
-(Glitterboys) are used by (Pilot: Robots & Power Armor)
-(Pilot: Robots & Power Armor) can be used to (Fly).
~(Glitterboys) can be used to (Fly)

Wrong. Powered armours with jet packs can be used to fly.

Therefore jet packs can be used to fly.
A glitterboy can fly if it has a jet pack.

Except that Glitterboys don't have jet packs.

Touche!

Or:
-(NG-P7s) are used by (the WP Heavy Energy skill)
-(The WP Heavy Energy skill) can be used to fire pulses.
~(NG-P7s) can be used to fire pulses.

So your argument is not valid.

Wrong again. The WP heavy energy skill cannot fire pulses because it is a skill, not a weapon.

I never said that it fired pulses. I said that it can be USED TO FIRE PULSES.
You didn't see me jump in and say, "WP Heavy MD Weapons can't make simo-attacks, because it's skill, not a weapon," so cut the crap.

I know what you did and did not say; I quoted you remember. But what you did do is a logic leap that I did not, and then attempt another logic leap to further reenforce your previously erroneous statement. I simply high-lighted where you went wrong, and corrected the second one with a decidedly dry bit of humor.

It is valid because mini-missiles are weapons that can be used with multiple skills. While using weapons systems you cannot make called shots, but you can while using a mini-missile rifle.

I don't think that the delivery system is the issue.
If you can make a Called Shot with a mini-missile rifle, why wouldn't you be able to make a Called Shot with a CR-1 mini-missile launcher?

Is it used via WP heavy MD, or weapon systems? This is where your answer lies.

Item X can be used for skill W or skill Y.
Skill Y can be used for action Z.
Item X can be used for action Z if used in conjunction with skill Y.

It is valid.

Not really.
Again, just plug some other stuff into the equation.

-(JA-11s) can be used for (WP Energy Rifle) or (WP Rifle)
-(WP Rifle) can be used for (firing Bursts of bullets)
~(JA-11s) can be used for (firing Bursts of bullets).

Doesn't pan out.

Again, you made a leap of logic I did not.

Mini-missiles are useable via the WP heavy MD weapons skill. You can make called shots with the heavy MD weapons skill, therefore you can make called shots with mini-missiles.

Mini-missiles are usable by two WP's and a pilot-related skill. All WP's can be used to make called shots*, unfortunately not all weapons can as weapons that offer burst-fire cannot be used to make called shots. Even WP flamethower would allow called shots if flamethrowers themselves were not exclusively burst-only weapons. So while you use bursts in your example (which not all WP's can perform), I am using an example for all WP's can do. This is where you are continually making this mistake. Understand now?
*With the obvious exceptions of quickdraw, sharp-shooting, and possibly some other one that offers a modifier to existing WP's and not an actual weapon proficiency.

On the other hand, this does not mean that it is necessarily wrong, so let's look at it a bit further:

The WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons skill includes
-plasma ejectors
-MD Rail Guns
-Rocket Launchers
-Mini-missile launchers
-weapon turrets and cannons built into (or which are a key part of) giant robots, tanks, aircraft and other combat vehicles.

So according to your argument, each of these can be used to make Called Shots.
Plasma ejectors? Sure.
MD Rail Guns? Not so sure; they're burst-firing weapons,

Wrong again. Some are burst-firing weapons; look at the boomgun or that new NG model. Both are single-shot firing railguns that qualify for aimed firing.

The boomgun is messed up, because sometimes it's referred to as firing bursts, sometimes not.
I don't know about the new NG model, but it doesn't matter, because MOST railguns on most vehicles/robots DO fire bursts.

Correct, most do; but then again we aren't talking about a "most" here. We are looking at an exception.

...and the question of whether or not you can make a Called Burst has no real answer at the moment (as detailed previously)
Rocket Launchers? This is weird, because I'm not sure what they mean here.
If they just mean "Missile Launchers," then that would mean that Called Shots can be made with any missile.
If they mean "un-guided missile" launcher, then that would mean that Called Shots can be made with pretty much any missile, which goes against the rule of Missiles always hitting the main body.

They are un-guided missiles, as guided missiles have their own bonuses to strike as detailed under their descriptions. They strike a target you designate, but they are the "striker" if you will. Like a spotter, you just give them a target; they decide where to hit it (which unfortunately is in the main body, as detailed under the missiles section of combat).

But you still need a Weapon Proficiency to fire them, regardless of which bonuses you use.

Wrong again. There is no WP missiles, yet these are weapons that we fire via weapon systems skill. Also note that both penalties and bonuses from WP's do not apply to weapons fired via weapon systems, so it really doesn't even matter if you are proficient or not.

[Kryzbyn]

O M G
RUE says "All missiles hit the main body".

Anything else is a house rule.

Not rocket science...or missile science...

[Killer Cyborg]

Or:
-(NG-P7s) are used by (the WP Heavy Energy skill)
-(The WP Heavy Energy skill) can be used to fire pulses.
~(NG-P7s) can be used to fire pulses.

So your argument is not valid.

Wrong again. The WP heavy energy skill cannot fire pulses because it is a skill, not a weapon.

I never said that it fired pulses. I said that it can be USED TO FIRE PULSES.
You didn't see me jump in and say, "WP Heavy MD Weapons can't make simo-attacks, because it's skill, not a weapon," so cut the crap.

I know what you did and did not say; I quoted you remember. But what you did do is a logic leap that I did not, and then attempt another logic leap to further reenforce your previously erroneous statement. I simply high-lighted where you went wrong, and corrected the second one with a decidedly dry bit of humor.

What I did was to show you why your argument was invalid; the formula doesn't work.

It is valid because mini-missiles are weapons that can be used with multiple skills. While using weapons systems you cannot make called shots, but you can while using a mini-missile rifle.

I don't think that the delivery system is the issue.
If you can make a Called Shot with a mini-missile rifle, why wouldn't you be able to make a Called Shot with a CR-1 mini-missile launcher?

Is it used via WP heavy MD, or weapon systems? This is where your answer lies.

WP Heavy MD Weapons, but that's not really an answer.
Unless you have somewhere in the books that clearly states that every weapon that can be used with that WP can also be used for Called Shots.

Item X can be used for skill W or skill Y.
Skill Y can be used for action Z.
Item X can be used for action Z if used in conjunction with skill Y.

It is valid.

Not really.
Again, just plug some other stuff into the equation.

-(JA-11s) can be used for (WP Energy Rifle) or (WP Rifle)
-(WP Rifle) can be used for (firing Bursts of bullets)
~(JA-11s) can be used for (firing Bursts of bullets).

Doesn't pan out.

Again, you made a leap of logic I did not.

Again, I showed you why your argument isn't valid.

Mini-missiles are useable via the WP heavy MD weapons skill. You can make called shots with the heavy MD weapons skill, therefore you can make called shots with mini-missiles.

Mini-missiles are usable by two WP's and a pilot-related skill. All WP's can be used to make called shots*, unfortunately not all weapons can as weapons that offer burst-fire cannot be used to make called shots. Even WP flamethower would allow called shots if flamethrowers themselves were not exclusively burst-only weapons. So while you use bursts in your example (which not all WP's can perform), I am using an example for all WP's can do. This is where you are continually making this mistake. Understand now?

Of course.
You are starting off with the assumption that anything that doesn't Burst can make Called Shots, then you are using this assumption to try to prove that mini-missiles (when not in volleys) can make Called Shots.
But your assumption is unfounded, and it's already been pointed out that guided missiles cannot make Called Shots, even though they require a WP to fire.

And you're saying that all WPs allow for Called Shots, which may or may not be true but is beside the point either way.
Just because a WP allows something does NOT mean that every weapon that requires that WP can do the same thing.
(Also, there is a faction of people who believe that you cannot make Called Shots in melee combat, for the same reasons that other people believe that you cannot make Simo-Attacks in ranged combat)

...but it doesn't matter, because MOST railguns on most vehicles/robots DO fire bursts.

Correct, most do; but then again we aren't talking about a "most" here. We are looking at an exception.

The exception doesn't matter, because the fact still remains that there ARE burst-firing railguns, that DO use the WP Heavy MD Weapons skill, but that can NOT make Called Shots.
Ergo, just because a weapon use WP Heavy MD Weapons does NOT mean that the weapon can make Called Shots.

But you still need a Weapon Proficiency to fire them, regardless of which bonuses you use.

Wrong again. There is no WP missiles, yet these are weapons that we fire via weapon systems skill.

Some of them are, some of them are NOT.
It is the ones that are NOT that I am talking about.

For example, the WI-40M missile launcher does NOT use Weapon Systems, and it fires a Medium Range missile. Which means that until RUE, this weapon fired a guided missile.

Also note that both penalties and bonuses from WP's do not apply to weapons fired via weapon systems, so it really doesn't even matter if you are proficient or not.

It doesn't matter whether the bonuses or penalties apply; the point is that they use the WP, and they can NOT make Called Shots.
Contrary to your assumptions that any weapons that use the WP (and don't burst) can be used to make Called Shots.

[Dog_O_War]

Or:
-(NG-P7s) are used by (the WP Heavy Energy skill)
-(The WP Heavy Energy skill) can be used to fire pulses.
~(NG-P7s) can be used to fire pulses.

So your argument is not valid.

Wrong again. The WP heavy energy skill cannot fire pulses because it is a skill, not a weapon.

I never said that it fired pulses. I said that it can be USED TO FIRE PULSES.
You didn't see me jump in and say, "WP Heavy MD Weapons can't make simo-attacks, because it's skill, not a weapon," so cut the crap.

I know what you did and did not say; I quoted you remember. But what you did do is a logic leap that I did not, and then attempt another logic leap to further reenforce your previously erroneous statement. I simply high-lighted where you went wrong, and corrected the second one with a decidedly dry bit of humor.

What I did was to show you why your argument was invalid; the formula doesn't work.

It works, just not in the context of bursts.

It is valid because mini-missiles are weapons that can be used with multiple skills. While using weapons systems you cannot make called shots, but you can while using a mini-missile rifle.

I don't think that the delivery system is the issue.
If you can make a Called Shot with a mini-missile rifle, why wouldn't you be able to make a Called Shot with a CR-1 mini-missile launcher?

Is it used via WP heavy MD, or weapon systems? This is where your answer lies.

WP Heavy MD Weapons, but that's not really an answer.
Unless you have somewhere in the books that clearly states that every weapon that can be used with that WP can also be used for Called Shots.

Weapon Modifiers exerpt... "The only bonuses that apply to using guns and other ranged weapons are the specific Weapon Proficiency, Sniping skill bonuses, any applicable bonus from the weapon itself, and the ones that follow..."

From here it lists the aimed shot bonus (which can only be used for certain weapons), then the called shot bonuses - which houses the most important line;

"Note: A "Called shot" can only be tried with a single "sniper-style" shot, not a burst or when shooting wild"

This here states that any weapon you may fire single shots with may be used to make called shots with, as it does not restrict what weapons are able to do this (unlike aimed shots, as noted above).

Item X can be used for skill W or skill Y.
Skill Y can be used for action Z.
Item X can be used for action Z if used in conjunction with skill Y.

It is valid.

Not really.
Again, just plug some other stuff into the equation.

-(JA-11s) can be used for (WP Energy Rifle) or (WP Rifle)
-(WP Rifle) can be used for (firing Bursts of bullets)
~(JA-11s) can be used for (firing Bursts of bullets).

Doesn't pan out.

Again, you made a leap of logic I did not.

Again, I showed you why your argument isn't valid.

And again, as noted above this does not work when used in the context of bursts, but does for the example I presented.

Mini-missiles are useable via the WP heavy MD weapons skill. You can make called shots with the heavy MD weapons skill, therefore you can make called shots with mini-missiles.

Mini-missiles are usable by two WP's and a pilot-related skill. All WP's can be used to make called shots*, unfortunately not all weapons can as weapons that offer burst-fire cannot be used to make called shots. Even WP flamethower would allow called shots if flamethrowers themselves were not exclusively burst-only weapons. So while you use bursts in your example (which not all WP's can perform), I am using an example for all WP's can do. This is where you are continually making this mistake. Understand now?

Of course.
You are starting off with the assumption that anything that doesn't Burst can make Called Shots, then you are using this assumption to try to prove that mini-missiles (when not in volleys) can make Called Shots.
But your assumption is unfounded, and it's already been pointed out that guided missiles cannot make Called Shots, even though they require a WP to fire.

As shown above, I did not assume that "anything that doesn't Burst can make Called Shots", I said that anything with a WP that can fire single shots can make called shots. Just because a weapon doesn't burst doesn't mean that it can fire single shots either. I did however say that bursts cannot be used in conjunction with called shots. The book agrees.

And you're saying that all WPs allow for Called Shots, which may or may not be true but is beside the point either way.
Just because a WP allows something does NOT mean that every weapon that requires that WP can do the same thing.

??? The WP doesn't enable anything beyond a bonus to strike (amoungst other bonuses). The rules for ranged combat allow for weapons with a WP to perform said action.

(Also, there is a faction of people who believe that you cannot make Called Shots in melee combat, for the same reasons that other people believe that you cannot make Simo-Attacks in ranged combat)

That's just dumb.

...but it doesn't matter, because MOST railguns on most vehicles/robots DO fire bursts.

Correct, most do; but then again we aren't talking about a "most" here. We are looking at an exception.

The exception doesn't matter, because the fact still remains that there ARE burst-firing railguns, that DO use the WP Heavy MD Weapons skill, but that can NOT make Called Shots.
Ergo, just because a weapon use WP Heavy MD Weapons does NOT mean that the weapon can make Called Shots.

I know this; I said it in an above post. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

But you still need a Weapon Proficiency to fire them, regardless of which bonuses you use.

Wrong again. There is no WP missiles, yet these are weapons that we fire via weapon systems skill.

Some of them are, some of them are NOT.
It is the ones that are NOT that I am talking about.

For example, the WI-40M missile launcher does NOT use Weapon Systems, and it fires a Medium Range missile. Which means that until RUE, this weapon fired a guided missile.

The WI-40M Fire&Forget Super heavy Missile Launcher says that it is a man-portable launch platform that fires a medium-sized missile. Nowhere in the text does it say that it is specifically covered under the heavy MD skill; only that it is a man-portable medium missile. As such it uses the weapon systems skill bonus of +1 (if applicable), but otherwise has no other bonuses to strike, as the platform offers no bonus and the Missile Combat section states that missiles (with the exception of mini-missiles) recieve no bonuses to strike from any WP.

Also note that both penalties and bonuses from WP's do not apply to weapons fired via weapon systems, so it really doesn't even matter if you are proficient or not.

It doesn't matter whether the bonuses or penalties apply; the point is that they use the WP, and they can NOT make Called Shots.
Contrary to your assumptions that any weapons that use the WP (and don't burst) can be used to make Called Shots.

As noted above, they infact can.

[Killer Cyborg]

What I did was to show you why your argument was invalid; the formula doesn't work.

It works, just not in the context of bursts.

Which means that it's not a valid argument.

It might save us both a lot of time if you read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Validity
To say that an argument is valid is to say that the conclusion really does follow from the premises. That is, an argument is valid precisely when it cannot possibly lead from true premises to a false conclusion.

It is valid because mini-missiles are weapons that can be used with multiple skills. While using weapons systems you cannot make called shots, but you can while using a mini-missile rifle.

I don't think that the delivery system is the issue.
If you can make a Called Shot with a mini-missile rifle, why wouldn't you be able to make a Called Shot with a CR-1 mini-missile launcher?

Is it used via WP heavy MD, or weapon systems? This is where your answer lies.

WP Heavy MD Weapons, but that's not really an answer.
Unless you have somewhere in the books that clearly states that every weapon that can be used with that WP can also be used for Called Shots.

Weapon Modifiers exerpt... "The only bonuses that apply to using guns and other ranged weapons are the specific Weapon Proficiency, Sniping skill bonuses, any applicable bonus from the weapon itself, and the ones that follow..."

From here it lists the aimed shot bonus (which can only be used for certain weapons), then the called shot bonuses - which houses the most important line;

"Note: A "Called shot" can only be tried with a single "sniper-style" shot, not a burst or when shooting wild"

This here states that any weapon you may fire single shots with may be used to make called shots with, as it does not restrict what weapons are able to do this (unlike aimed shots, as noted above).

No, what it states is that only single "sniper style" shots can be Called Shots.
NOT that any weapon that may fire single shots may make Called Shots.

The formula for this is:
-Only A can B
NOT
-Any A can B

There's a significant difference.

For example, if somebody says:
"Only women are capable of giving birth."
That does NOT mean:
"Every woman is capable of giving birth."

Again, I showed you why your argument isn't valid.

And again, as noted above this does not work when used in the context of bursts, but does for the example I presented.

Which means that it's not a valid argument.
For an argument to be valid, it has to ALWAYS work.

You are starting off with the assumption that anything that doesn't Burst can make Called Shots, then you are using this assumption to try to prove that mini-missiles (when not in volleys) can make Called Shots.
But your assumption is unfounded, and it's already been pointed out that guided missiles cannot make Called Shots, even though they require a WP to fire.

As shown above, I did not assume that "anything that doesn't Burst can make Called Shots", I said that anything with a WP that can fire single shots can make called shots.

What weapons are there that cannot burst and cannot fire single shots?
Melee weapons?

Just because a weapon doesn't burst doesn't mean that it can fire single shots either. I did however say that bursts cannot be used in conjunction with called shots. The book agrees.

And I agree too.
Except in the case of Pulses, which are a kind of burst (that isn't considered a burst) that can make Called Shots.

And you're saying that all WPs allow for Called Shots, which may or may not be true but is beside the point either way.
Just because a WP allows something does NOT mean that every weapon that requires that WP can do the same thing.
The rules for ranged combat allow for weapons with a WP to perform said action.

??? The WP doesn't enable anything beyond a bonus to strike (amoungst other bonuses).

The WP enables the character to use the weapon with proficiency. Hence the term "Weapon Proficiency." It allows the character to know how to reload, how to clean the weapon, how to engage the trigger, how to make an Aimed Shot, how to make a Called Shot, and it allows them to avoid penalties while bursting.
A person without the right weapon proficiency cannot use a modern weapon unless he has been shown, and even then the extent of use is being able to pull the trigger (or depress the firing button, or whatever).

Read up on the skill description.

(Also, there is a faction of people who believe that you cannot make Called Shots in melee combat, for the same reasons that other people believe that you cannot make Simo-Attacks in ranged combat)

That's just dumb.

I agree.

For example, the WI-40M missile launcher does NOT use Weapon Systems, and it fires a Medium Range missile. Which means that until RUE, this weapon fired a guided missile.

The WI-40M Fire&Forget Super heavy Missile Launcher says that it is a man-portable launch platform that fires a medium-sized missile. Nowhere in the text does it say that it is specifically covered under the heavy MD skill; only that it is a man-portable medium missile. As such it uses the weapon systems skill bonus of +1 (if applicable), but otherwise has no other bonuses to strike, as the platform offers no bonus and the Missile Combat section states that missiles (with the exception of mini-missiles) recieve no bonuses to strike from any WP.

Weapon Systems only covers an understanding of weapons and systems that are incorporated into military vehicles, robots, and/or power armor.
The WI-40M is none of those.

WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons includes rocket launchers.
Whether or not bonuses apply doesn't affect this.

Also note that both penalties and bonuses from WP's do not apply to weapons fired via weapon systems, so it really doesn't even matter if you are proficient or not.

It doesn't matter whether the bonuses or penalties apply; the point is that they use the WP, and they can NOT make Called Shots.
Contrary to your assumptions that any weapons that use the WP (and don't burst) can be used to make Called Shots.

As noted above, they infact can.

As noted above, you are wrong.

[Dr. Doom III]

Except that Glitterboys don't have jet packs.

You have Mutants in Orbit?

[Killer Cyborg]

Except that Glitterboys don't have jet packs.

You have Mutants in Orbit?

Shh!
I wasn't going to mention those versions.


(But I was talking about the original version anyway)

[Dead Boy]

Find something in the book that says that mini-missiles can be used for Called Shots.

Find me something that says Simultaneous Attack can be used with ranged weapons.

But seriously...
"Unlike its larger predecessors, the mini-missile is not self-guided and has no special bonuses to strike unless the character has the W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons skill, those apply." (RUE 365)

Also pg. 364 notes that normal missiles hit on a roll of 5-20 and do not receive any bonuses at all (unless guided getting a +1 to +3), not even those from WP Heavy MD Weapons. Mini-missiles don't have any such option for guidance at all, and rely strictly on the skill for any bonuses. That means they are effectively aimed by hand, making them point and shoot and hitting not on a 5-20, but instead a 8-20 like all the other point & shoot weapons. If they can be pointed, (and we have every reason to believe so), then they can be aimed. If they can be aimed, then they can be used in Called Shots. Its just that simple.

And if you don't like that KC, then find me something that says "mini-missiles" can NOT be used with called shots.

[Kryzbyn]

RUE 362

Note: All missiles always strike the main body

He already has...several times...

[Killer Cyborg]

Find something in the book that says that mini-missiles can be used for Called Shots.

Find me something that says Simultaneous Attack can be used with ranged weapons.

Exactly my point.
In the other thread, you're trying to claim that since the rules do not specifically state that Simo attacks can be made with ranged weapons, that it must not be so.
Here, you're operating on the opposite rule, claiming that even though the books never say it, it must be true.

But seriously...
"Unlike its larger predecessors, the mini-missile is not self-guided and has no special bonuses to strike unless the character has the W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons skill, those apply." (RUE 365)

Also pg. 364 notes that normal missiles hit on a roll of 5-20 and do not receive any bonuses at all (unless guided getting a +1 to +3), not even those from WP Heavy MD Weapons. Mini-missiles don't have any such option for guidance at all, and rely strictly on the skill for any bonuses. That means they are effectively aimed by hand, making them point and shoot and hitting not on a 5-20, but instead a 8-20 like all the other point & shoot weapons. If they can be pointed, (and we have every reason to believe so), then they can be aimed. If they can be aimed, then they can be used in Called Shots. Its just that simple.

And if you don't like that KC, then find me something that says "mini-missiles" can NOT be used with called shots.

As I have already pointed out (but with more emphasis this time):

AS OF RUE, ONLY A RARE FEW LONG RANGE MISSILES ARE GUIDED

So your "mini-missiles are unguided" argument doesn't wash.
Yes, they are unguided.
So are short range missiles.
So are medium range missiles.
So are long range missiles, with a few rare exceptions.

IF mini-missiles can be uses to make Called Shots because they are not guided, THEN so can pretty much every other missile on the face of Rifts Earth, because they are also unguided.

But they can't, because there's that rule again:
"Note: All missiles always strike the main body"

In order for your theory to pan out, the authors would have to be using the word "all" to mean "Only a very few rare exceptions."

I do not believe that this is what they meant.

[Dog_O_War]

What I did was to show you why your argument was invalid; the formula doesn't work.

It works, just not in the context of bursts.

Which means that it's not a valid argument.

It might save us both a lot of time if you read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Validity
To say that an argument is valid is to say that the conclusion really does follow from the premises. That is, an argument is valid precisely when it cannot possibly lead from true premises to a false conclusion.

Okay, I'll break it down for you sentence by sentence. This is what I said;

Mini-missiles are useable via the WP heavy MD weapons skill. You can make called shots with the heavy MD weapons skill, therefore you can make called shots with mini-missiles.

Mini-missiles (ammo) are useable via the WP heavy weapons skill (which clearly requires a weapon for them to be fired from). You can make called shots with the heavy MD weapons skill (as having a WP allows for use of the called shot rules, but clearly you still require a weapon for these missiles to be fired from). Therefore you can make called shots with mini-missiles (since they are not weapons themselves but instead ammo, which if a weapon that fires single shots is used to fire them, you make infact perform called shots).
Extra long-winded with many unneeded clarifications, but you just weren't 'getting it'. It applies to any and all weapons that use any type of ammo; the only stipulation is that it allow for single shots.

I don't think that the delivery system is the issue.
If you can make a Called Shot with a mini-missile rifle, why wouldn't you be able to make a Called Shot with a CR-1 mini-missile launcher?

Is it used via WP heavy MD, or weapon systems? This is where your answer lies.

WP Heavy MD Weapons, but that's not really an answer.
Unless you have somewhere in the books that clearly states that every weapon that can be used with that WP can also be used for Called Shots.

Weapon Modifiers exerpt... "The only bonuses that apply to using guns and other ranged weapons are the specific Weapon Proficiency, Sniping skill bonuses, any applicable bonus from the weapon itself, and the ones that follow..."

From here it lists the aimed shot bonus (which can only be used for certain weapons), then the called shot bonuses - which houses the most important line;

"Note: A "Called shot" can only be tried with a single "sniper-style" shot, not a burst or when shooting wild"

This here states that any weapon you may fire single shots with may be used to make called shots with, as it does not restrict what weapons are able to do this (unlike aimed shots, as noted above).

No, what it states is that only single "sniper style" shots can be Called Shots.
NOT that any weapon that may fire single shots may make Called Shots.

What is a "sniper-style" shot? Beyond a single shot carefully aimed at a specific portion of a target? Since there is no definition of a "sniper-style" shot other than in the text (where it says that this is neither a burst nor a wild shot), a single shot clearly qualifies for this attack form.

The formula for this is:
-Only A can B
NOT
-Any A can B

There's a significant difference.

This formula is pointless because it only serves to cloud the facts. I never offered a statement that qualifies for this formula.

Again, I showed you why your argument isn't valid.

And again, as noted above this does not work when used in the context of bursts, but does for the example I presented.

Which means that it's not a valid argument.
For an argument to be valid, it has to ALWAYS work.

Thankyou; my argument does always work.

You are starting off with the assumption that anything that doesn't Burst can make Called Shots, then you are using this assumption to try to prove that mini-missiles (when not in volleys) can make Called Shots.
But your assumption is unfounded, and it's already been pointed out that guided missiles cannot make Called Shots, even though they require a WP to fire.

As shown above, I did not assume that "anything that doesn't Burst can make Called Shots", I said that anything with a WP that can fire single shots can make called shots.

What weapons are there that cannot burst and cannot fire single shots?
Melee weapons?

Yes. They generally do not fire anything, with a few exceptions.

Just because a weapon doesn't burst doesn't mean that it can fire single shots either. I did however say that bursts cannot be used in conjunction with called shots. The book agrees.

And I agree too.
Except in the case of Pulses, which are a kind of burst (that isn't considered a burst) that can make Called Shots.

Except that it calls the attack a burst that you can make aimed shots with (at half bonus). I failed to see where in the text it says that this burst qualifies for called shots. I saw it said that it can perform aimed shots (when not normally allowed), but clearly I have missed the called shot portion of that text.

And you're saying that all WPs allow for Called Shots, which may or may not be true but is beside the point either way.
Just because a WP allows something does NOT mean that every weapon that requires that WP can do the same thing.
The rules for ranged combat allow for weapons with a WP to perform said action.

??? The WP doesn't enable anything beyond a bonus to strike (amoungst other bonuses).

The WP enables the character to use the weapon with proficiency. Hence the term "Weapon Proficiency." It allows the character to know how to reload, how to clean the weapon, how to engage the trigger, how to make an Aimed Shot, how to make a Called Shot, and it allows them to avoid penalties while bursting.
A person without the right weapon proficiency cannot use a modern weapon unless he has been shown, and even then the extent of use is being able to pull the trigger (or depress the firing button, or whatever).

Read up on the skill description.

I did; it lists weapons and applicable bonuses. I can find only the ranged combat section stating that without a WP all shots are wild (and thus disabling the shooter from called shots and such).

For example, the WI-40M missile launcher does NOT use Weapon Systems, and it fires a Medium Range missile. Which means that until RUE, this weapon fired a guided missile.

The WI-40M Fire&Forget Super heavy Missile Launcher says that it is a man-portable launch platform that fires a medium-sized missile. Nowhere in the text does it say that it is specifically covered under the heavy MD skill; only that it is a man-portable medium missile. As such it uses the weapon systems skill bonus of +1 (if applicable), but otherwise has no other bonuses to strike, as the platform offers no bonus and the Missile Combat section states that missiles (with the exception of mini-missiles) recieve no bonuses to strike from any WP.

Weapon Systems only covers an understanding of weapons and systems that are incorporated into military vehicles, robots, and/or power armor.
The WI-40M is none of those.

This is fuzzy; it says that the WI-40M is a man-portable lauch platform. I would take that as some type of installation that qualifies for the bonus offered by weapon systems. But then again, the book does not state launch-platforms as any of the above, nor does it say that a WP is applicable (since this is a medium-range missile).
But of course common sence would tell us that missile platforms as fixed base positions would qualify for weapon systems - I don't see how this would be different (as it is a man-portable Launch platform).

WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons includes rocket launchers.
Whether or not bonuses apply doesn't affect this.

It doesn't affect the WI-40M (as you'll not find a single rocket launcher that says it fires medium range missiles), but it does affect mini-missiles; as noted under numerous weapons (such as that CS model that I cannot recall the name of - it is in R:UE), it is a rocket launcher that fires mini-missiles.

[Dr. Doom III]

As I have already pointed out (but with more emphasis this time):

AS OF RUE, ONLY A RARE FEW LONG RANGE MISSILES ARE GUIDED

Clearly an error that should read:

ONLY A RARE FEW LONG RANGE MISSILES ARE SMART MISSILES.

[Killer Cyborg]

As I have already pointed out (but with more emphasis this time):

AS OF RUE, ONLY A RARE FEW LONG RANGE MISSILES ARE GUIDED

Clearly an error that should read:

ONLY A RARE FEW LONG RANGE MISSILES ARE SMART MISSILES.

An "error" that is stated 3-4 times over two pages.

[Dr. Doom III]

An "error" that is stated 3-4 times over two pages.

You do realize we're talking about a Palladium game right?