City of Brass found??

[Kryzbyn]

It'll be found by somebody. People there dont seem to like Dunscon much, so I wouldn't be surpised if some one let it slip.

[Kryzbyn]

It'll be found by somebody. People there dont seem to like Dunscon much, so I wouldn't be surpised if some one let it slip.

I think is City of Brass was found another thing that would happen would the Duncsons people would even turn on Dweomnor and give up their location also, I ready somewhere where Duncson said he wanted to do that if they don't help or participate in the next rebellion/war against the CS in order to force them in.

Prosek isn't stupid enough to go kick that hornet's nest without provocation.
Especially since he's still nursing wounds from Tolkeen.

[Kryzbyn]

It'll be found by somebody. People there dont seem to like Dunscon much, so I wouldn't be surpised if some one let it slip.

I think is City of Brass was found another thing that would happen would the Duncsons people would even turn on Dweomnor and give up their location also, I ready somewhere where Duncson said he wanted to do that if they don't help or participate in the next rebellion/war against the CS in order to force them in.

Prosek isn't stupid enough to go kick that hornet's nest without provocation.
Especially since he's still nursing wounds from Tolkeen.

True, considering they're a pacifist nation. Would make sense to take out Duncson, re-group again and then go after them at a later time.

I wonder how long though before many humans withing the magic zone, Lazlo, Dweamnor, and other nations whom has humans and D-bees living together go ahead and decide not to fight and just join the CS like many of the outskirt towns on Tolkeen did. Some humans only live in those areas due to the area they were born in and didn't know any better, so if a human nation comes and give me a choice to join them or be annihilated...........sign me up!!! I may have a d-bee friend or two I care about I may lose, but family comes first.

I'd like to see that happen actually. The CS embraceing human magic users.
I don't think karl would ever go for it, but I think joe 2 would.

[cornholioprime]

According to the CS Intelligence Officer in either the Rifts: Arzno™ or Rifts Merc Ops™ or Rifts: Merc Town™ Book, they already know.

(Whichever Book that it is in, it's in the first few pages immediately after the Afterword....BTW, I think that it's in Rifts: Merc Town™.)

[Aramanthus]

Interesting. I do believe you are right. Although I don't remember which page. And I agree about the Coalition not wanting to kick over another bee hive until they've had time to replace their man power losses.

[dark brandon]

I give it 70-80% chance. All these refuges, CS is gonna wanna keep up with some of them. If not within the year, within a few years CS will know where either City of Brass, psyscape or Dwemor is, it just depends on who's tongue slips first.

[Lenwen]

I personally said 10% +

Reason being , Not many people even know where the City of Brass is themselves and actually being led there by some one who knows about it .

As evidenced by Aftermath , The CS is not going to follow a bunch of deebee's an magic users into the wilderness , due to the wilderness being harsh enough place that they will more then likely die before long as it stands an there is no need to waste CS resources chasing them . ( Remember the JAL army story ? )

And once INSIDE of TCoB , they no longer have to go anywhere in or out .. meaning once there who could the CS follow ?

The Slip of the tounge as was mentioned prior is equally reliable as say me saying that there is a city over here we can go to for a while , then never see'ing you again . Do you honestly believe it or not ? In places where such info is not as freely given as the Pro CS people on these boards wish to believe , This is yet another thing they seem to want to just hand over to them .

But like I said personally I believe the CS will have a reliable source on the matter within a year or two . AFTER they build back up thier military . And AFTER they start ACTIVLY trying to look for it .

[Nekira Sudacne]

Where's the 0% because the authors will never let it happen option?

[dark brandon]

Do you honestly believe it or not ? In places where such info is not as freely given as the Pro CS people on these boards wish to believe , This is yet another thing they seem to want to just hand over to them .

No-one said freely info like that usually costs money, and who has the richest economy in NA? CS, seeing as it represents 70% of the economy in NA. And yes, places like that ARE where you find destinations like the city of brass and psyscape and other places or at least it gives you a place to start looking.

As evidenced by Aftermath , The CS is not going to follow a bunch of deebee's an magic users into the wilderness , due to the wilderness being harsh enough place that they will more then likely die before long as it stands an there is no need to waste CS resources chasing them . ( Remember the JAL army story ? )

It notes that it will not send large armaments of people into the wilderness. It doesn't state it will not keep tabs on them by sending in CS rangers, buying the info, sending in spies and other such things you can use to keep track of people.

You're % of them finding it is yours alone to believe. There is no wrong/right answer. Just giving you some into to chew on.

But like I said personally I believe the CS will have a reliable source on the matter within a year or two . AFTER they build back up thier military . And AFTER they start ACTIVLY trying to look for it .

Just to note, after reading Scard's profile (A tolkeen leader who is said to be wearing an amulet that has the soul of Jason Prosek, karls youngest son), I'm under the impression CS is now actively looking for him and has a very good chance of turning up the city of brass in their investigation of him. And it's not just the CS alone, but lots of people who are personal or want to get personal with Karl, so this could mean anyone from upper brass highering adventurers to lowly adventurers who want to make some "easy" money. Just think of the bank one would get if one could find the location of the city of brass...

[dark brandon]

Isnt the city of Brass in some kind of a pocket dimension that can be closed off in case of CS incursion?

Pretty sure I read that somewhere

I don't recall that, but I wouldn't be surprised. It is noted though there is only one way in and out of this dimension.

[Khanibal]

Well, the C.S. is up to their necks in Xiticix. SoT: Aftermath has them gearing up for all out war within 8 months. Of course, the barely scratched C.S. army (60% of the losses against Tolkeen were burbies) will defeat the 30 Million+ Xiticix horde while only losing 100 men. Or Lazlo will jump in and do the job, regardless of the fact their resources are maxed trying to deal with the influx of refugees and mercenaries turned bandits.
In any case Dunscon will probably launch his attack just after the C.S. has engaged the waspies. This attack will be blunted as Archie assaults the entire magic zone and cripples the FoM. After this the City of Brass should be easy to identify, and the C.S. can move in and wipe them out, along with Lazlo (who's busy fighting the X's). Lord Splynncryth will be so stunned by such a brilliantly written supplement that he'll die of a massive (and with Splugorth we mean MASSIVE) myocardio-infarction. Hate shall carry the day.

[dark brandon]

Well, the C.S. is up to their necks in Xiticix. SoT: Aftermath has them gearing up for all out war within 8 months. Of course, the barely scratched C.S. army (60% of the losses against Tolkeen were burbies) will defeat the 30 Million+ Xiticix horde while only losing 100 men. Or Lazlo will jump in and do the job, regardless of the fact their resources are maxed trying to deal with the influx of refugees and mercenaries turned bandits.
In any case Dunscon will probably launch his attack just after the C.S. has engaged the waspies. This attack will be blunted as Archie assaults the entire magic zone and cripples the FoM. After this the City of Brass should be easy to identify, and the C.S. can move in and wipe them out, along with Lazlo (who's busy fightint the X's). Lord Splynncryth will be so stunned by such a brilliantly written supplement that he'll die of a massive (and with Splugorth we mean MASSIVE) myocardio-infarction. Hate shall carry the day.

Another story idea...the xitixics wars may be the breaking point for CS civil war. Holmes taking the initiative...many soldiers may find themselves fighting side-by-side with Lazlo and other hunters...OOh...the ideas abound.

[Khanibal]

I may be a little bitter about being promised that the Tolkeen war would cripple the C.S. war machine, and then reneged.

[Balabanto]

Well, I have a feeling that what will happen is this. Eventually, the City of Brass will be wiped out and the Coalition will take over that portion of the magic Zone. The rest of the area will be largely ignored as soon as the Coalition says "Holy !@#$! Nxla!" THAT'S where the Coalition will get it's comeuppance and have to beg for help from magic users.

By the year 112 P.A., you're going to see Dwoemer, Psyscape, and Queenston ally with the Kingdom of Lazlo, and then you'll have a long bitter cold war between two military powers of about equal strength. And before you say the Coalition can just trash these places, Queenston has a stone pyramid all by itself, and that does A LOT. What kind of resources do we have? ALL OF THEM!

[Nekira Sudacne]

I may be a little bitter about being promised that the Tolkeen war would cripple the C.S. war machine, and then reneged.

I'm not sure what you mean?

[Khanibal]

I may be a little bitter about being promised that the Tolkeen war would cripple the C.S. war machine, and then reneged.

I'm not sure what you mean?

I can't remember which book it was in, but if you give me a week or so, I'll reread everything I can and see if I can locate the reference. Somewhere in the books, I read that the Tolkeen war would be devastating.

[Balabanto]

Oh, and whoever said that Joe II would embrace human mages?

Read the Vanguard book.

He already has.

[Library Ogre]

Oh, and whoever said that Joe II would embrace human mages?

Read the Vanguard book.

He already has.

He's not really embracing them... he's doing them on the down-low, not letting any of his friends know he swings that way.

He's the married guy who trolls gay bars when his wife is out of town.

[Khanibal]

Thanks Mark. It's good to know someone else watches SVU.

[Library Ogre]

Thanks Mark. It's good to know someone else watches SVU.

Eh, my boss writes gay porn. You learn the lingo.

[Balabanto]

Uhh...right.

And just WHY does your boss write gay porn? That's not something I'd share with internet friends. You're a brave man, Mark.

But the point is, Prosek already has. So change is coming. Maybe not in Karl's lifetime, but it is coming.

[Library Ogre]

Uhh...right.

And just WHY does your boss write gay porn? That's not something I'd share with internet friends. You're a brave man, Mark.

She likes to read it, so she writes it as well.

[Khanibal]

I may be a little bitter about being promised that the Tolkeen war would cripple the C.S. war machine, and then reneged.

I'm not sure what you mean?

Sorry Nekira, I must have put too much stock in Tarn's words in the beginning of WB:23 Free Quebec.
To be fair, she had no idea that King Creed would send the most horrific monsters and depraves mages he had available, with orders to reinforce the sterotype of magic to be inhuman and corrupt, to assist the Quebecois. She should have known something though. I mean Creed only has an I.Q. of 19 and a M.A. of 23. Not only that , but he's been the King of Tolkeen for 20 years, and was a member of the 12 for 11 years before that. {CoT: 6}
With such low scores and lack of exposure to diplomacy, it's no wonder that he gave such disastrous orders to troops whose very presence would exemplify the inhumanity that prompted Quebec to join the C.S. in the first place.

[Khanibal]

Thanks Mark. It's good to know someone else watches SVU.

Eh, my boss writes gay porn. You learn the lingo.

I think the important question here is WHY does she quote gay porn to you?
Mark, if your boss is harassing you, you should tell someone. You don't have to go through it alone.

[Library Ogre]

Thanks Mark. It's good to know someone else watches SVU.

Eh, my boss writes gay porn. You learn the lingo.

I think the important question here is WHY does she quote gay porn to you?
Mark, if your boss is harassing you, you should tell someone. You don't have to go through it alone.

I look over it for editing purposes. Not her primary audience, but it also means I don't get distracted.

[Shadyslug]

The CS could never HOLD the magic zone...

[Balabanto]

Well, now, I see someone is already "holding" their "City of Brass," so why not?

[Shadyslug]

Well, now, I see someone is already "holding" their "City of Brass," so why not?

BIG difference between the City of Brass and the magic zone...

[Balabanto]

Your problem is that all that Duncson has to do is wait for the CS to get into the Cavern System and collapse it on them. Then you have a bunch of guys in MD armor trapped underground with no light, no food, and no way to move.

The city is EASY to defend as long as you don't let the CS get through the gateway.

Then Duncson can open a new gate to somewhere else on Rifts Earth.

[Khanibal]

Well, Dunscon himself has 55% of the [mostly] unallied FoM following him, and can easily convince them to attack the C.S.
If the C.S. invaded, a the number of people willing to fight to defend their homes would significantly increase. After the Coalition executed surrenderees by the thousands, no one would expect quarter from them. Lazlo would probably sit this one out also, as would the Cyber-Knights.

FoM Advantages: 1)While Tolkeen sunk into depravity and madness when choosing their allies, Dunscon has been corrupt for decades. The sheer numbers of demons/deevils and other monstrosities that are there preparing for war are staggering. 2)The boggling array of ley lines and nexus [nexuses? nexui?] allow FoM to flank the enemy at any time. 3)If he has any sense remaining, Dunscon should have several wizards parked on a nexus, cranking out high level spell scrolls. 4)A significant portion of the Tolkeen survivors who are consumed with vengence are willing to submit to supernatural conversion (bio-wizardry, tattoos, Dragon-Juicer conversion, possibly becoming corrupts).

FoM Disadvantages: 1)They are not very organized. Especially with all the various conflicting dimensiol monsters in their ranks. Sucessful prosecution of the war will be hampered by poor communication, occupational jealousy, troops ignoring orders to fulfill their own need to kill, and even internecine warfare. 2)With all this summoning going on, somebody's going to wind up opening a gateway to something best left alone. An alien intelligence or two and their hordes of minions might be willing to throw in their hat for ownership of the magic zone. 3)The C.S. is the golden villian of Rifts. By author's fiat, they're incapable of losing (it would be too much work to replace them as the dominate bad-guys).

[dark brandon]

3)The C.S. is the golden villian of Rifts. By author's fiat, they're incapable of losing (it would be too much work to replace them as the dominate bad-guys).

Should this really be a talking point in any discussion such as this?

Perhaps it's just me, but comments like this just sort of kill any discussion or debate. It's sort of like Lenwen's "only canon" rule. Such things simply make for a very short thread since they offer nothing more than black and white.

[dark brandon]

Also, just because the leaders of the City of Brass are evil, doesn't mean all of the people who live there are (same applies to the CS). This means that leaders of Dweomer, while they may want to get rid of Dunscon, would not reveal information to lead to the City of Brass' destruction for it would mean innocent lives would needlessly be lost (presuming they even know where it is or how to get to it).

Er...Pg 31 "Whatever it's designers original intent, the City of Brass is a sinister place. Foul-hearted Sorcereres, Necromancers, the undead, demons and other supernatural creatures, warriors, mercenaries and villains roam its corridors and climb it's surfaces....Human sacrifice is common practice, and is even used by Lord Dunscon and his cronies to fuel their magic."

Except for the Slave population, I don't see many innocent lives congregating here.

[Khanibal]

True, but it comes down to who the Lords of Magic choose to side with. The "true" FoM, which is chock full of evil folks and is led by a man (used to be anyway) who hates and plots against Dweomer, or the Coalition, who even if approached by a subservient Dweomer, would simply mow them down. In truth, Dweomer would be lucky to betray Dunscon before he managed to leak the location of Dweomer to the C.S. It's written that he is considering to do so, only to fall on the C.S. troops from the rear. Crippling Dweomer, and making like a savior at the same time.

[Khanibal]

3)The C.S. is the golden villian of Rifts. By author's fiat, they're incapable of losing (it would be too much work to replace them as the dominate bad-guys).

Should this really be a talking point in any discussion such as this?

Perhaps it's just me, but comments like this just sort of kill any discussion or debate. It's sort of like Lenwen's "only canon" rule. Such things simply make for a very short thread since they offer nothing more than black and white.

Sorry D-B, but sometimes the Deus ex machina* necessary to maintain the Coalition irritates me. The truth is [DANGER! meta-gaming spoiler ALERT!] the Coalition is the perfect villian. At least 90% of the people who play Rifts are human, and a fairly good percentage of them are disturbed by the dominant human culture being so steeped in prejudice and bigotry. Mr Siembieda calls them the "villian everyone loves to hate", I disagree. I believe them to be the villian everyone hates to hate.
I truly think that one mage with the psionic ability of Mask P.P.E. can use the spells Reduce Self, Invisibility: Superior, Fly as the Eagle to infiltrate a mega-city. He could penetrate the most sensitive area (power generation, armory, et c.). Use a Dimensional Portal scroll to open up a rift to a personal sancturary (with a circle and whatnot), where 50 other dudes are waiting with scrolls of Annihilate. Poof!


*New! Try the Deus Ex Machina-Gun!

[dark brandon]

Sorry D-B, but sometimes the Deus ex machina* necessary to maintain the Coalition irritates me.

Of course it does. They are villains. Regardless, answers or comments like this stifle creativity on something that is not found. Simply put, people complain about deus ex machina until it's made canon via a book to alleviate these concerns, then people complain of "handwavium". Really, people are gonna feel this way, regardless of who it is because it's a villain, and thus since it's pretty much not gonna solve any problem and decends into a downward spiral of no end, it's usually best to leave such comments on the side since it never adds to any discussion.

[dark brandon]

Well, the slave population for the City of Brass c. 105 PA is nearly 1/4 of the overall population (FoM p.32-33). If one were to say 1/4 of the population of a city were criminals, I think it would suffice to say that the city in question would have many criminals. The point is, three thousand to five thousand lives out of about twenty-five thousand is considerable.

This aside, by 109 PA the population has swollen considerably (Rifts Aftermath p.102). Many of these people are refugees, although more mercenaries, demons, and other malevolent forces have flocked there. However, it would be unreasonable to assume that every refugee that fled to the City of Brass is evil. After all, the Federation, at least on the surface, offers them protection from the CS and as we see with the CS, even good people are willing to tolerate atrocities as long as they are protected. Many people who have fled may not even be aware of Dunscon's true colors.

I dunno. This may be stretching it a bit...To each his own though.

Personally, (just as a player, no bias) see it as pretty much an evil place. Slaves or no slaves. Thinking on it, I've always felt that death would be preferable to slavery if freedom wasn't an option.

[dark brandon]

Well, the slave population for the City of Brass c. 105 PA is nearly 1/4 of the overall population (FoM p.32-33). If one were to say 1/4 of the population of a city were criminals, I think it would suffice to say that the city in question would have many criminals. The point is, three thousand to five thousand lives out of about twenty-five thousand is considerable.

This aside, by 109 PA the population has swollen considerably (Rifts Aftermath p.102). Many of these people are refugees, although more mercenaries, demons, and other malevolent forces have flocked there. However, it would be unreasonable to assume that every refugee that fled to the City of Brass is evil. After all, the Federation, at least on the surface, offers them protection from the CS and as we see with the CS, even good people are willing to tolerate atrocities as long as they are protected. Many people who have fled may not even be aware of Dunscon's true colors.

I dunno. This may be stretching it a bit...To each his own though.

Would you please elaborate what exactly is a stretch?

I don't take "slaves" to be the reason they haven't been exposed. I don't think the refugees who are going to city of brass would be concidered "good". I think it's pretty well known it's an evil place, where human sacrifices take place. Most "good" are going to go to Lazlo or some other such place. I don't even think it's one of those "hidden" thing that dunscon is trying to hide his true colors, I'm pretty sure everyone is well aware.

In the reading, I really didn't come across anything that suggested that this place holds any "good". While there may be some "good" there by accident, I don't see them staying there long, either by choice or forcably removed through sacrifice.

[dark brandon]

I never said slaves were "the" reason the City of Brass has yet to be found. Simply that it might be one reason, among others I listed in previous posts, that Dweomer would not expose them.

Also, I'm not sure if you are familiar with the concept of refugees from war torn areas, but I'm fairly certain that the "any port in a storm" logic could apply. By the way, the CS are not the only ones who use propaganda. If I recall, the Federation under Dunscon paints itself as an avenging force (and yes, good people do cry out for vengeance. The average CS citizen's reaction to the Sorcerer's Revenge, for example). Quite probably, all of the anti-Federation propaganda from the CS might make the Federation more appealing to CS enemies. I'm also not sure it's so much "well known" throughout most of NA that the City of Brass is a den of evil so much as it is "well propagated." The people of Rifts Earth do not have the "metaknowledge", if you will, that we do.

Except I don't get no do I recall reading anything that suggests Dunscon is any sort of "avenging angel" or uses any kind of propaganda, no meta knowledge, I don't think he tries to cover up what he is or what his city is. I'm not saying there are no good people in the city of brass, but I do think they are a vast minority, not enough to justify them not being exposed. The reason they probably haven't is a sort of mutually assured destruction type thing. I have little doubt that if CS finds city of brass before dweomer or even psyscpe, Dunscon would see to it those 2 cities are exposed simply to pull them into any war, so that what happened to tolkeen doesn't happen to him.

In fact, thinking on it now, I think Tolkeen could have forced the city of brass into a war if they reviled the location of the city, and probably even forced CS into war with Lazlo if they set up some sort of "attack" that would make out lazlo had attacked.

[Khanibal]

I could easily se 25-50% of non-magic humans turning to the CS as their savior or simply laying down to just stay alive.

Xiticix Invasion says that by 105 Lazlo would be at war with the BUgs to run their plan to exterminate the Queens and 40% of the population, by 109 when the TOlkeen war is over, Holmes and one army could mop up the rest. Then you have hundreds of thousands of Psi-Stalkers going hungry over the bugs dying out..................in comes the CS military and offers them a free fligh to the Magic Zone for a buffet with incentives to fight alongside the CS or do their own hunting........

Dweomnor won't get involved, they've already said that. Same with Lazlo.

Problem 1) The C.S. has already demonstrated unequivocably that they will shoot everyone on sight. After the Sorcerer's Revenge, they stopped taking prisoners. After all, anyone could be a disguised mage. Old man with a cane...BLAM! Pregnant woman...BLAM! You get the point. Sure, some will surrender, string up banners, welcome the deadboys with welcome arms. Until the first couple of villages are obliterated. After that, not so much.

Problem 2) Aftermath makes it clear, that the C.S./Tolkeen war interrupted Lazlo's plans to attack the X's. It's all the C.S.'s baby now. With the X book's estimate, the waspies should be closing in on 50 Million about now. In order to reduce casualities, the C.S. will probably go ahead with the nuclear alternative. Penetrate the hives underground and trigger the device. If they can scrape any suicide mission volunteers out of the 'burbs (especially after the backstabbing from last time), that would be the best approach. It would finish the job quickly and allow the C.S. to apply their forces to any FoM threat.

[Khanibal]

As for the good vs. evil of the refugees in the CoB. Well the Tolkeenites already crossed the line when they hired the first demon. I guess it's a question of how much evil can you endorse, before you become evil.