CSN destroyed?

[Omega6]

Where can I find information on what happened to the Coalition Navy's losing battle against Free Quebec. I know it is briefly mentioned on page 139 in Aftermath, but I want more specific details. What was destroyed? I find it hard to imagine every single ship being sunk. I could, however, believe that an aircraft carrier's battle-group was destroyed. I just don't think the CSN would send all their ships to fight the FQN. Some ships should have stayed in the Gulf of Mexico.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Well page 63 of Aftermath says that 50% to 75% of just the Great Lakes Fleet was destroyed. So the 2nd and 3rd Fleet's came out fine, but would likely see transfer's to even things out.

[Lenwen]

Well you also have to recognize the fact that the Coalition navy Vrsn of a Aircraft Carrier an its battle grp are not even close to what we in todays real world know of as a battle grp . For the CS navy battle grps from what I have read they have virtually about half the ships in a single battle grp then what the United States currently puts up as a single battle grp . That along with the fact that one of thier Frigets or larger ships being sunken is a larger toll then say if one of the US's frigets were to get shot down . Considering the loss to the relative size of thier Forces . 2 Frigets gettin shot down in thier world is the equivlent of like 10% or better of thier overal navy vessals . That is the way I personally see it .

-Lenwen.

[Jefram_denkar]

Remember this dose not even count the ships that left to join with Free Quebec agaisnt the C.S.

While thye will not have to rebuild form the ground up they got alot of work ahead of them.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Remember this dose not even count the ships that left to join with Free Quebec agaisnt the C.S.

While thye will not have to rebuild form the ground up they got alot of work ahead of them.

The CSN book already took care of that I believe. We know that three of the eight Sea King Missile Cruisers remained with FQ.

[Omega6]

Thanks for the responses. I have been working on some new CS material for submission and some of it will have to do with the Navy.

[glitterboy2098]

Well you also have to recognize the fact that the Coalition navy Vrsn of a Aircraft Carrier an its battle grp are not even close to what we in todays real world know of as a battle grp . For the CS navy battle grps from what I have read they have virtually about half the ships in a single battle grp then what the United States currently puts up as a single battle grp . That along with the fact that one of thier Frigets or larger ships being sunken is a larger toll then say if one of the US's frigets were to get shot down . Considering the loss to the relative size of thier Forces . 2 Frigets gettin shot down in thier world is the equivlent of like 10% or better of thier overal navy vessals . That is the way I personally see it .

-Lenwen.

actually the CS navy has enough ships to provide a full USNavy type Carrier Group for each and every carrier it has.

it just doesn't have enough bluewater ships to do anything else.

it's the brownwater fleet that suffered the most in the SoT and against FQ. the CS lost a few destroyers and IIRC a cruiser to FQ, but those were all FQ registered ships to start with. the big problem was that FQ with it's smaller but more professional Navy controlled the only easy route into the Great lakes. FQ had an advantage against the CS in that FQ's ships were close to harbor and could retreat for repairs/rearm at any time, while the CS feet had to sail days away back all the way to Texas to do the same. and the CS Navy is a littorial fleet in operations, with out the long range supply lines needed for the job. plus the CS can't afford to dispatch enough ships to dislodge the FQ navy should it come to blows. they only have 5 carrier groups after all, and most of those aren't free to be reassigned, being involved in defensive operations along the coasts.

so the CS was limited to the patrol boats and small ships operating on the rivers and lakes. when the ball went up against FQ, the CS navy was in no position to take on anyone.

[Jefffar]

Check out Free Quebec for other details of what happened

Basically the bulk of the CSN defected to (or perhaps remained loyal to) Free Quebec. The next largest portion of the CSN strayed too close to Atlantis on it's way to engage the Freee Quebec fleet and the Great Lakes force would have had to sail past Lazlo.

So yeah, the CSN was more or less neutralized before the war even started.

[Lenwen]

So Atlantis has already taken out some of the CS navy ships ? I have to get Quebec now for sure heh read here on these boards that Atlantis would NEVER be able to hunt track n locate any of the CS ships let alone engauge them with out losing a buttload of thier own navy ships . Now I wonder exactly what the outcome was when the Atlantean Navy faced the CS navy out there in the atlantic Even tho I already know I just wish to see what if any dammage the CS navy inflicted upon the Atlantean forces heh



-Lenwen.

[Dustin Fireblade]

The next largest portion of the CSN strayed too close to Atlantis on it's way to engage the Free Quebec fleet and the Great Lakes force would have had to sail past Lazlo.

Source on Atlantis?

Regarding Lazlo - it's a non-issue I think as the CSN has a base just 130 miles away.

[Jefram_denkar]

So Atlantis has already taken out some of the CS navy ships ? I have to get Quebec now for sure heh read here on these boards that Atlantis would NEVER be able to hunt track n locate any of the CS ships let alone engauge them with out losing a buttload of thier own navy ships . Now I wonder exactly what the outcome was when the Atlantean Navy faced the CS navy out there in the atlantic Even tho I already know I just wish to see what if any dammage the CS navy inflicted upon the Atlantean forces heh
-Lenwen.

Free Quebec is a great book. They also have a few items exclusive to their Navy in their.

[Lenwen]

I never said it lol . It was a main arguement from some one else when we debated that atlantis would easily be able to wipe out the CS on a different Thread entirly . That an the Atlantean forces would not be able to get Kittanian forces to the N.A. continent enmass .


-Lenwen.

[Jefffar]

The next largest portion of the CSN strayed too close to Atlantis on it's way to engage the Free Quebec fleet and the Great Lakes force would have had to sail past Lazlo.

Source on Atlantis?

Regarding Lazlo - it's a non-issue I think as the CSN has a base just 130 miles away.

Atlantis, not quoting the page but it's in FQ

Lazlo - the Kingston base is between Lazlo and FQ, this is true, however Lazlo is between the Kingston base and the rest of the CSN.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Regarding Atlantis/CSN, I haven't come across anything in FQ or Aftermath. There's mention in the CSN book of combat with a Kittani Shark submarine.

I'm not sure what signifigance you are placing on Lazlo. The CS sailed around it for years obviously when FQ was a full member.

[Jefffar]

But if the CS is fighting a war with FQ and with Tolkien at the same time, they might not want to put their fleet within easy striking range of a hostile power on the way to the theatre.

Also, there's all the fun of moving ships from one lake to another, theya ren't on the same level and I suspect that the canals and locks system didn't survive the arrival of the Rifts. The Chi-Town class carrier being built for lake Michigan in SB4, once it had launched, would have had a rather tough time heading over Niagra Falls on its way to Lake Ontario.

I also think that at the time of the FQ situation, the great lakes fleet was mostly small patrol boats anyway and couldn't have added much to the struggle.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Lazlo isn't going to pester the CS though, and I think Prosek knows that.

The CS rebuilt the locks IIRC. So what's more fun to figure is how Lazlo does their mundane trading.

I agree though that the Great Lakes/1st Fleet was mainly smaller boats, though the Iron Heart and Quebec are apparently assigned to it. Then there are the Chi-Town's two sister ships that should have been completed by 109 PA with the Iowa actually being assigned to the 1st Fleet.

[Jefffar]

Prosek is paranoid, remember?


I was re-reading and in regards to the locks, it was FQ that rebuilt them and they only went from Montreal to Lake Erie (so getting around Niagra Falls is possible) but I saw nothing about any of the canal system above Erie (which would be required to get the big ship out of Michigan).

Bare in mind that when the Kingston base is establised, a full 75% of the first fleet has joined FQ and only by stretching to their limits do they have their 1st fleet to half it's origional strength. The Kingston base also won't be fully operational until 114 - or for another 5 years in the future.

Despite the pressence at Kingston (which they cite as intending to abandon in favour of Halifax which they also intend to abandon as it's position is also untenable) the CS fleet has effectively been swept from the Great Lakes until the end of the stated 5 to 8 year rebuilding period (Aftermath pg 63 BTW).

If my fleet was gutted to 25 to 50% of it's origional strenght (with much of that now being raw recruits and untested rookies) I would tend to avoid putting the main force of it, including the flagship, any further from it's home port than absolutely necissary - especially when I was trying to squeeze them between two of my biggest potential threats (FQ and Lazlo).

Still looking about this Atlantis thing.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Prosek also respects Lazlo too, according to WB 23.

Anyway CSN says the CS(mainly) rebuilt all the locks so they can go from Duluth all the way to the Atlantic.

Now CSN says that FQ took 75% of the 1st fleets vessels, and it was a near even split of personnel . It seems to me there would be enough experienced sailors remaining, not to mention that Admiral LeBlanc remained with the CS. Obviously you are operating at half power, but if replacements can be brought up from the other fleets then operations should be able to continue.

Given the rivers and waterways of the Quebec area, and their relative lack of air transport, Quebec's military could use their naval forces to out flank the CS forces easily. This would make it imperative for the CS to neutralize the Quebec navy. So yes I see them going past Lazlo. They really had no choice.

[Jefffar]

They do have a base on the far side of Lazlo, but they don't have the resources left on the Great Lakes to operate out of Kingston and do what else they want on the Great Lakes (in fact, they do neither because they don't defeat the FQ navy and Aftermath points out that Piracy and Smuggling has exploded on the Great Lakes).

So if you are the emperor, would you deploy your signifigantly undermanned and under equipped Navy on the far side of a potential enemy who could easily cut you offf to a base that you plan to abandon as son as a better one comes available? Or would you deploy your forces to the opposite end of the Lakes so you could deal with a more threatening power that you are trying to grind out of existence (Tolkeen has lake front property too)? Or woudl you police the Great Lakes so that all those pirates and bandits and smugglers and monsters you have been suppressing for the last decade don't get uppity? Or would you keep your fleet close to home where you could protect it while you built the new flagship?

The CSN Great Lakes fleet has 4 responsibilites and maybe has the manpower to do one. The FQ operations also puts you up against a foe with superior numbers, a more experienced fighting force and all the advantages of fighting for their own home. It moves your fleet out of the range of easy reinforcement and stirs up yet another potential enemy when you're already fighting a 2 front war.

I'd say the intellegent commander would keep the bulk of his fleet out of Lake Ontario until he was ready to take the ofensive - which Aftermath and CSN both indicate will probably be no sooner than 114 PA or 5 years from now.

[Dustin Fireblade]

If I was the emperor, I never would have cast FQ as traitors and declared war on them, at least not right after I declared war on Tolkeen.


You still need to deploy what's left of your great lakes fleet though into Lake Ontario and past Lazlo - you have to support the boots on the ground.

[Jefffar]

Yeah, rocks and hard places and all that.


I wouldn't be surprised if one of the reasons for the failure of the remenants of the 1st Fleet during the FQ campaign was the need to provide extra security for an extended supply line which was passing too close to comfort to a powerhouse kingdom that the Emperor repeatedly labeled a threat to humanity.

They probably spent more time trying to show Lazlo that they shouldn't interfere than actually trying to fight the Quebecois.


It's interesting that we hear almost nothing of the CSN deployed in support of the Tolkeen operation . . . if you have to support the boots on the ground, why not them?


I'd say that in the 108 - 115 time frame, the CSN First Fleet is more a "fleet in being" than a viable combat force on the Great Lakes - which makes putting it in such a precarious position incredibly risky.

Fortunately for the CS the Lazlo folks are not keen on instigating hostilities and decided to focus their attention on the Xiticix.

[Lenwen]

So basically the CS are nearly invulnerable in game context .. Sept when it comes to fightin Canuckleheads !!! All I can say is GO FQ GO !!!

lol

-Lenwen.

[Jefffar]

Yeah, they somehow ended up with Script Immunity until they went head to head with FQ.

[Samored II]

So Atlantis has already taken out some of the CS navy ships ? I have to get Quebec now for sure heh read here on these boards that Atlantis would NEVER be able to hunt track n locate any of the CS ships let alone engauge them with out losing a buttload of thier own navy ships . Now I wonder exactly what the outcome was when the Atlantean Navy faced the CS navy out there in the atlantic Even tho I already know I just wish to see what if any dammage the CS navy inflicted upon the Atlantean forces heh



-Lenwen.

The outcome was that the CSN lost 60% of the ships in the engagement. Basically the Atlantean forces sank a horde of jet ski's and patrol boats. The two fleets broke contact before CSN airpower could play much of a role.

[Dustin Fireblade]

So Atlantis has already taken out some of the CS navy ships ? I have to get Quebec now for sure heh read here on these boards that Atlantis would NEVER be able to hunt track n locate any of the CS ships let alone engauge them with out losing a buttload of thier own navy ships . Now I wonder exactly what the outcome was when the Atlantean Navy faced the CS navy out there in the atlantic Even tho I already know I just wish to see what if any dammage the CS navy inflicted upon the Atlantean forces heh



-Lenwen.

The outcome was that the CSN lost 60% of the ships in the engagement. Basically the Atlantean forces sank a horde of jet ski's and patrol boats. The two fleets broke contact before CSN airpower could play much of a role.

Book and page number please?

[Lenwen]

All this talk about CS Navel forces makes me wonder if Archie has anything even close to a navy or what not .. hmm... In my personal opinion that dude is going to rock the cazbah when he decides to do what ever it is he does lmao.

Damn I wish he would start his *move* already


-Lenwen.

[Jefffar]

So I'm not imagining this Atlantis thing . . . but where did it come from?

It sounds like the 1st fleet has basically been reduced to escorts while the 2nd fleet has been turned into unescorted Capital Ships . . . if the CSN could link up it's fleets it would have a functional navy again.

[Lenwen]

Either way spells doom for what ever Fleet is short for now if you ask me esp since so many Pirates out there now are able to go toe to toe wittem with only half to a quarter size fleet .


-Lenwen.

[Jefffar]

Sounds like a fun idea to me, go with it.

[Lenwen]

that would be one badass pirate ...


-Lenwen.

[glitterboy2098]

I wonder if there is anything that would prevent pirates from getting submarines? I'm all of a sudden imagining a fleet of submarines belonging to pirates sinking ships so they could salvage the swag from the briny deep.

It's what I would do if I was a Rifts pirate. Totally go all Captain Nemo on my prey.

that would be cool actually. steal one of those Submersible patrol boats (which resemble stats wise the old gato or balao class), pull a Down Periscope...

[Jefffar]

Dog Boy Submarine . . .think of the smell of all that newspaper after a few days spent submerged.

[Jefffar]

I assume they are too.

I'm making a joke with the idea they aren't.

We have a long tradition in my games of razing the DogBoy/Wolfen/Bearman/Furry character.

[Jefffar]

I find humans boring to play too, so I've taken my lumps as much as any other in our group.

[Omega6]

Salvaging the sunken ships was actually the main reason for my original question. Although, I was not planning on pirates raising the ships. I plan to write some information on CS salvage teams trying to get back what they can, so they won't have to build as many completely new ships. I plan to have information on salvage equipment, and personnel trained just for the purpose of bringing ships back to the surface (or at least pieces of them). Included in the specialists will be a new type of mutant animal from Lone Star, which shall remain nameless for now. But, I think it could make for some fun adventures playing as a salvage team fighting pirates or something like that.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Salvaging the sunken ships was actually the main reason for my original question. Although, I was not planning on pirates raising the ships. I plan to write some information on CS salvage teams trying to get back what they can, so they won't have to build as many completely new ships. I plan to have information on salvage equipment, and personnel trained just for the purpose of bringing ships back to the surface (or at least pieces of them). Included in the specialists will be a new type of mutant animal from Lone Star, which shall remain nameless for now. But, I think it could make for some fun adventures playing as a salvage team fighting pirates or something like that.

I seem to recall in FQ that that they have sabotaged CS ships, rather than outright destroyed them. So yeah going in as a CS Salvage Team might be interesting.