Vibro Blades and Resistance to Kinetic Attacks

[Daniel Stoker]

Here’s an odd question that came up this week with my friends. Are Vibro-blades considered energy or kinetic attacks when you have people with powers like some of the various APS’s with resistance or immunity to kinetic attacks? I tend to say it’s just a kinetic attack, but some of the descriptions of a Vibro-blade and the fact that it’s an ‘energy field’ that does the damage makes me question it. I still want to say it’s kinetic and if they want an energy blade they need to take an energy blade, but what do others here think?


Daniel Stoker

[wolfsgrin]

i would keep it kinetic. the "feild" is generated by the vibration of the blade. its moving so fast that it sorta takes on some similiar characteristics of an energy field. i think the term energy feild is used a little too liberaly for the the way the game mechanics are handled. cause if you really look at, anything making an impact or causing movement could be considered kinetic.

[NMI]

Kinetic

To explain better what my answer is...
I would consider vibroblades, regardless of what makes them "vibro" kinetic as far as what resistances can defend against them.

If you players want to consider them "energy" weapons, then remind them that it is clearly stated in several books, powers, etc... that you do not get to add your PS bonus to energy melee weapons.

[wolfsgrin]

Kinetic

did the word lose all meaning for ya bud? lol

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Kinetic.

In many respects, you can think of a Vibro-weapon as the super sophisticated cousin of an electronic (or battery operated) turkey carver.

~ Josh

[wolfsgrin]

Kinetic

did the word lose all meaning for ya bud? lol

oh

[Stone Gargoyle]

My perception of a vibro-blade is a blade which is made to move like an electric toothbrush. It is not a light sabre or energy sword. Anything that is solid matter in motion is kinetic, which is why most melee weapons, punches, kicks, and ballistic weapons and projectile launchers fall into that category. An energy blade does not produce a kinetic effect due to the fact there is no resistance created resulting in force. Psionic weapons, same thing. There has to be a kinetic energy buildup for it to be a kinetic weapon, in my opinion.

[Nekira Sudacne]

While palladium is the ONLY game company I know of to do so, the offical answer is the blade is simply a conduit for a damaging energy feild.

[SoulofThunder]

Kinetic.

In many respects, you can think of a Vibro-weapon as the super sophisticated cousin of an electronic (or battery operated) turkey carver.

~ Josh

Same thought i had .

[wolfsgrin]

While palladium is the ONLY game company I know of to do so, the offical answer is the blade is simply a conduit for a damaging energy feild.

That's what I always thought. That it was vibrating so much it actually acts like an energy attack.

I don't know how you would get that idea. The description of Vibro-Blade Weapons in AU (p. 175) never even uses the word "energy," save for describing how vibros can parry energy blasts. The Vibration super ability (HU2, p. 295) does similar. Save for the possible necessity of a power source, there is no hint in either of these places that there is anything "energy" about vibro anything. Considering the difference in how "true" energy weapons are handled (no damage bonus), it seems clear that something kinetic is hitting the target if vibro-weapons are used.

I just can't figure out how you'd jump to a conclusion that had anything o do with energy...

i think what they are trying to get at is that the vibration field that is created is treated as an energy attack. The blade never actually makes contact. Its as if the the molecular structure of the blade is being moved so fast that it's been turned into energy. Kinda like going the speed of light and everything at that speed is turned into pure energy. I believe the energy term is used in Rifts main first edition. Not sure about RUE. I don't have my books in front of me.
but i like the idea of the electric turkey carver. keeps it simple and keeps it a cut and dry kinetic attack.

[Jesterzzn]

The case for Kinetic:

However, a Vibro-Sword uses a physical core and so damage bonuses can be applied to this weapon. The same is true of rune weapons and TW weapons which have an actual cutting blade and such.

The case for other:

All Vibro-Blades are blade weapons surrounded by an invisible, high-frequency energy field

The spines and blades are even covered by a sonic field, making them an M.D. Vibro-Blade.

Personally I think that the fact that the damage is done by the "core" of the weapon and can be augmented by strength modifiers indicates that the damage is definately kinetic.

[Jesterzzn]

The case for Kinetic:

However, a Vibro-Sword uses a physical core and so damage bonuses can be applied to this weapon. The same is true of rune weapons and TW weapons which have an actual cutting blade and such.

The case for other:

All Vibro-Blades are blade weapons surrounded by an invisible, high-frequency energy field

The spines and blades are even covered by a sonic field, making them an M.D. Vibro-Blade.

Personally I think that the fact that the damage is done by the "core" of the weapon and can be augmented by strength modifiers indicates that the damage is definately kinetic.

Again, the "sonic field" also implies kinetic. Every sonic power and weapon I can find is either stun, sonar, or points at being kinetic force.

Though I tend to agree with you, there are enough "sonic" powers in HU to cause confusion.

[wolfsgrin]

While palladium is the ONLY game company I know of to do so, the offical answer is the blade is simply a conduit for a damaging energy feild.

That's what I always thought. That it was vibrating so much it actually acts like an energy attack.

I don't know how you would get that idea. The description of Vibro-Blade Weapons in AU (p. 175) never even uses the word "energy," save for describing how vibros can parry energy blasts. The Vibration super ability (HU2, p. 295) does similar. Save for the possible necessity of a power source, there is no hint in either of these places that there is anything "energy" about vibro anything. Considering the difference in how "true" energy weapons are handled (no damage bonus), it seems clear that something kinetic is hitting the target if vibro-weapons are used.

I just can't figure out how you'd jump to a conclusion that had anything o do with energy...

i think what they are trying to get at is that the vibration field that is created is treated as an energy attack.

And what I'm trying to get at is that there is nothing at all to suggest that's how it works. The difference between kinetic and "energy" attacks in PB (and especially HU) comes into play quite a bit, making it a practical necessity to hammer out anything that hints at ambiguity... and I'm not sure there's anything all that ambiguous here. I just can't figure out how someone would look at the information presented and say "it must be 'energy.'"

The blade never actually makes contact. Its as if the the molecular structure of the blade is being moved so fast that it's been turned into energy. Kinda like going the speed of light and everything at that speed is turned into pure energy.

I seriously doubt any vibro weapon is going even half that speed... and again, nothing I can find supports that notion.

I believe the energy term is used in Rifts main first edition. Not sure about RUE. I don't have my books in front of me.

RUE, p. 259, calls it a "high-frequency energy field." The word "frequency" suggests sound/vibration.

I've already given my argument about vibration attacks being kinetic, so how about sound/sonic? AU describes sonic weapons as having "impact," and the Sonic Boom of Sonic Power (HU2, p.288) "hits like a shotgun blast." Seems pretty cut-and-dry that the "energy field" is kinetic energy, and only kinetic resistances/immunities would then apply.

Again, I'm just not seeing it. Every piece of information I can find leans the opposite direction from the Palladium "energy" banner.

why does it have to be an argument?
i'm just playing bro. see if we can't get an official ruling then house rule it for yourself if you're not happy.
i go with kinetic. as far as a sonic attack, there is an immunity to sonic attack. i think it just comes down to what your table can play with. the rules really don't dive into the nitty gritty of physics and if you did you'd ruin your game, at least it would ruin my games. i like realism but i like to suspend a few beliefs so i can make believe.

[wolfsgrin]

sadly there a few spots where one sentence would solve many problems, even if that sentence was wrong it would probably be better than none, because at least you know where the creator stands on any issues that arise.