A few questions about rules

[Veknironth]

Well, I'll go with them piece by piece or in numerical order.

1 SDC - as far as I can tell, SDC was added to make the 2nd edition more in line with the other games. As to why it's in the other games I don't know. I agree, it works just like HP so why not just have more HP? You're going to have a lot of responses with house rules. Personally, I ignore SDC.

2. Called Shots - As far as know the basic rule is to hit a called shot you must have 12 or higher to strike on a called shot, 18 or higher for small targets like head or hand. As you increase in levels, that becomes very easy. It also can be cheap when someone is doing called shots to the throat or head over and over. You either have to say the person with an arrow in his throat or eye is not killed (because most likely not enough HP and SDC was done), or you just ignore HP and SDC and say the person is dead immediately. Neither is a good option. What really bothers me is the lack of penalties for someone moving. It's really hard to hit a moving target.

3. Localized HP - We tried it and it was not that succesful. What I recommend is just winging it. Say someone's leg was cut off. Randi Cartier had a great critical chart that accounted for a strike hitting different areas and doing greivous damage to them.

-Vek
"Boo SDC"

[rrank5377]

Hit Points & S.D.C

For the reasoning of adding S.D.C. to the Palladium Fantasy Role Playing Game, I'll have to agree with Veknironth and Robyn above. They probably did it to bring it in line with the other games, so, for instance, someone in a Rifts game could come to this world with no conversion.

When it comes to what Hit Points and S.D.C. are, I look at them as two very different things. Sure, they behave pretty much the same when in combat, but think about it from the character's perspective, not the player's.

Huh?

Well, I look at S.D.C. as being hit and having it hurt, but in the end, you know you're alright. For instance, if someone punches me in the stomach, sure it'll hurt, but I don't worry that it will kill me.

Conversely, when you get into Hit Points, you know that you're in trouble. That's when you start to get woozy, the world spins and you want to get away and go to sleep, even though you maybe shouldn't. If something really major happens to you, you just *know* you're going to die. That's Hit Points.

Using a boxing match as an example, the two fighters are knocking each other's S.D.C. down throughout most of the match. Towards the end, when you see one of the fighters is going to lose, that is the one that is into Hit Points. The one who gets knocked out is down to hit points...his body is telling him not to get up any more. If he does, he will die.

I think there are really two questions. First, why add S.D.C. to *this* game (match the rest of the Palladium line). Second, why add S.D.C. to the Palladium games in general (to make it more realistic).

Did I communicate my thoughts on this okay?

[lather]

I do not use SDC. Yay 1e PFRPG. I do not use it any other game either. too.

I am not opposed to the concept, but I think SDC builds up way too much and too fast. If I did use it, I would probably cut whatever it is in half and chuck it in hit points. It makes the "should this be sdc or hp damage" a whole lot easier to answer.

Combat is deadly and not something to be entered willy nilly. Yank out SDC (or play RECON) and they will figure that out pretty quick.

[t0m]

i have played more 1st edition than 2nd so i tend to ignore the sdc as well. though i have a habit of adding the sdc onto the hit points of creatures in 2nd ed books to make them a bit tougher. combat in our game is usually really crunchy and short

i found the standard called shots rule a bit easy for people to abuse (both gm and players at one point in my games) so i made mine a bit harder. i req 16 or higher, and you get half of your bonus to strike. if you dont roll 16 or higher the guy doesnt even have to parry or dodge, its a complete miss. if you are trying to do a really hard shot ill make it 18 or higher or maybe even require a natural 20. for your example of a throwing axe cutting a rope i would base the roll on the character throwing. if he has wp targeting i would make it a regular 16+ because for a throwing axe expert that would be a pretty basic shot. if he didnt have wp targeting or any throwing type skill i would probably require a 18 or even a 20 (remember the bonus to throw is separate from the bonus to hit, and usually much lower).

for localized damage from a called shot i just wing it with no real formula, i just try to be logical. i make them roll their damage and compare it to the creatures total hp and the area being hit. for instance, a called shot (sword) to the neck of a human with 33 hp for me would require about 7 damage minimum to take his head off. this would be impossible with a dagger (d6 dmg) unless the user had a damage bonus, and would take almost max damage from most short swords (in 1st ed). if the damage roll wasnt enough to decapitate i would figure out a suitable wound and apply bleeding damage or whatever needs to be done. if he was a troll with 55 hit points it would take a bit more damage and a bigger blade due to the increased size of his neck.

in a recent game our longbowman tried to 'headshot' a basilisk. he rolled max damage but i ruled that an arrow even at max damage wouldnt be enough to pierce the dragons skull. he quickly started shooting for the throat and the feet instead. it worked great because the wounds may not be crippling or heavy damage but they are super painful (arrow between the toes )and the basilisk spent a lot of time trying to bio-regen the damage instead of attacking.

[Lord Malachdrim]

My current group and I have figured that SDC will only be used when dealing with things like falls, hth, and such. Once it hits zero your taking an unexpected nap.

Things like swords, arrows, spells, even most hammer are HP weapons.

[lather]

My current group and I have figured that SDC will only be used when dealing with things like falls, hth, and such. Once it hits zero your taking an unexpected nap.

Things like swords, arrows, spells, even most hammer are HP weapons.

I tried that, too, and it works. Still more complexity that I want. But this is a good use of SDC if you are going to use it.

[lather]

My current group and I have figured that SDC will only be used when dealing with things like falls, hth, and such. Once it hits zero your taking an unexpected nap.

Things like swords, arrows, spells, even most hammer are HP weapons.

I tried that, too, and it works. Still more complexity that I want. But this is a good use of SDC if you are going to use it.

i think this makes the most use out of SD and HP, different types of damage inflict different types of wounds, some serious (HP) and some not so serious (SD)

blunt, fists, falls etc. take of SD first

swords, arrows, fire, poison etc take directly of HP.

I get it but sometimes blunt trauma damage is going to be worthy of dishing out HP damage, like you said: a hammer strike or an exceptionally long fall. Depending on your group (ie. rules lawyers) you might hit a snag here and there. But again this is a good use of SDC.

[Veknironth]

Well, if you're going to divide what does HP vs SDC, I recommend that any blunt weapon goes to HP. Otherwise, why bother with anything other than a sword? I always figured that if something was so minor that it didn't go to HP why bother with it anyway?

-Vek
"Surplus Damage Capacity."

[lather]

I punch on the nose or a punch to the ribs may not amount to anything. 100 would. That is my take on it anyway.

[lather]

because sometimes you may not actually want to kill some one.

That's just crazy talk!

[t0m]

the whole lethal vs non lethal damage doesnt fly with me. i dont want the players to feel like they are ever safe. the feeling of "im glad he hit me and not my expensive armor" is a joke, imo. i want my players to feel dread when the group of enemies draws their weapons. in our game a few months ago one of the players died (coma) from a roll of a 1 to save vs a local drug we had been taking religiously for weeks. they cant even be safe on their day off relaxing and getting high in my world we have a psi healer though so im a little rougher on the group than i would be if they were relying on healing potions and stuff.

[lather]

Non lethal damage is not tickling. It hurts, and it potentially hurts so much you are utterly unable to fight. Take a bean bag to the head, a rubber bullet to the thigh, a taster to the nipples, that sort of thing.

[lather]

:lol::lol::lol:

taser

[t0m]

i see what you mean but i dont like it in my games. if a guy is hit in a way that doesnt kill him but stops him from fighting i would rather just say "you got knocked out" than have to keep track of another separate set of hit points.

another thing to consider is that people trained to fight* or fight daily for whatever reason (adventurers) are usually accustomed to this type of damage and can make it through a fight with a broken hand/nose/ribs with very little extra effort.

bean bag to the head = knock out

rubber bullet to leg = might give a stun but in a life or death fight i dont see a stinging pain being enough to stop a guy from trying to kill his opponent in any way (maybe reduce spd for a few rounds)

taster to nipples = sounds fun who wants first lick

*fight = hitting and being hit by someone in a dynamic, combat situation, not standing in a line kicking and punching, or doing pre-determined drills with a partner.

[verdilak]

As I see is, SDC is there more for sparring, weapon's practice, that sort of thing. It's that extra bit of toughness that you have through training or whatnot. I mean, if you are not allowing SDC, why have any of the physical skills since most of them add to the SDC.

[Veknironth]

Well, to reply to the punch to the nose vs 100 punches, that could easily be simulated by HP. One punch to the nose does 2 HP and you have 44 HP. Looks like you can take a lot more punches before you're dead. People can be beaten to death, happens everyday. The problem is there is nothing in the rules for a person being in pain and being unable to fight. It's basically you're a whirling dervish until you hit 0 then you collapse.

I agree with all the good folks who want combat to be dangerous. Every time you are hit with a sword it could be life threatening. I hate the idea that a grown man with a long sword will only do around 7 points of damage and you can have 50 SDC to whittle through before you are really injured. I mean, you can just stand there and have this guy wail on you for 7-8 hits before it is life threatening.

Of course, this conversation comes up everytime SDC appears in a post and it's really just a play style issue.

-Vek
"Too late to post a quip."

[verdilak]

Yea, the whole 3d6 damage for a sword where it does anywhere from 3-18 damage per swing. What I like to do is roll for each weapon once and thats the damage it does. So, if player A just found a sword and it does 4 damage, tough noggies. Sell it, or use it until you get a better one. Gives incentives to get out there and find better equipment. I might give the sword a damage bonus due to it being well made, or subtract damage due to it being rusty or whatnot. Though usually, if the sword is 6 or less, it's because it's a crap sword, rusted and pitted and whatnot. But thats how I like to GM.

[Yisterwald]

Well, to reply to the punch to the nose vs 100 punches, that could easily be simulated by HP. One punch to the nose does 2 HP and you have 44 HP. Looks like you can take a lot more punches before you're dead. People can be beaten to death, happens everyday. The problem is there is nothing in the rules for a person being in pain and being unable to fight. It's basically you're a whirling dervish until you hit 0 then you collapse.

I agree with all the good folks who want combat to be dangerous. Every time you are hit with a sword it could be life threatening. I hate the idea that a grown man with a long sword will only do around 7 points of damage and you can have 50 SDC to whittle through before you are really injured. I mean, you can just stand there and have this guy wail on you for 7-8 hits before it is life threatening.

Of course, this conversation comes up everytime SDC appears in a post and it's really just a play style issue.

-Vek
"Too late to post a quip."

So often I'll look to post in a PF thread, only to find that Vek has already covered it. Like today, for example.

Saves me the work, I guess...

--Yister
"What Vek said."

[lather]

I mean, if you are not allowing SDC, why have any of the physical skills since most of them add to the SDC.

The physical skills can still be beneficial even without their SDC bonuses. And there is nothing wrong with giving a small HP bonus instead, too. My main problem with SDC is that characters get too much extra toughness.

Well, to reply to the punch to the nose vs 100 punches, that could easily be simulated by HP.

Agreed. Obviously that is the way I do it, since I do not use SDC in my games.

I think it is a decent concept, but I do not think it works very well as it is currently implemented. The way I see it, it is more complexity than it is worth.

[lather]

So it look like i'm close to the point of view Veknironth for this.

[Veknironth]

Well, I'd like everyone to read this again!

So it look like i'm close to the point of view Veknironth for this.

-Vek
"word!"

[Yisterwald]

Well, I'd like everyone to read this again!

So it look like i'm close to the point of view Veknironth for this.

-Vek
"word!"

What, you didn't like this?

-Yister
"What Vek said."

[lather]

Too many to keep up with.

[Veknironth]

So often I'll look to post in a PF thread, only to find that Vek has already covered it. Like today, for example.

Saves me the work, I guess...

--Yister
"What Vek said."

I also would like to draw people's attention to the above quote.

-Vek
"Yis Yis Hooray!"

[lather]

I've been reading it over and over and over...

[t0m]

doing 3 attacks by round and dealing 2d4+2 dmg (or did they mean 1 bite only?)

yup thats 3 bites per round doing 2d4+2 each.

Well T0m for the distributions of hit points by substracting the total, it would make things not only brutal but truly gore Eek!

just dont forget that your npc badguys can do it to your players too. monsters are famous for trying to bite peoples hands and legs off in my games sometimes it might take a bit of chewing....

[Library Ogre]

In adding personal SDC, there should've been some changes to leveling up.

History of Hit Points, condensed version.

When D&D was getting started, they originally considered having HP remain static, and having AC improve as you increased in levels, representing your increased ability to defend yourself. They decided that this mechanic wasn't flexible enough (magic, certain monsters became more difficult to stat), so they went with an alternate meaning of Hit Points, which encompassed minor scrapes and strains, and simple exhaustion which, over a long combat, would get used up. A 1st level character, with little combat experience, would run out of combat luck fairly quickly; a warrior has more, because he's better trained and better conditioned; a wizard has less, because he's not as well trained in combat, nor as physically conditioned. A 10th level character, with more experience, will exceed a 1st level character because of their conditioning (from theoretical adventuring) and combat experience.

In Palladium Fantasy 1st edition, this rationale worked fine; other elements were added (the parry and dodge roll). However, when personal S.D.C. was added, it absorbed many of the "conditioning" and "minor damage" functions of hit points, leaving hit points as your life points... the integrity of your physical body and core functions. But HP still went up with levels, and S.D.C. remained static except for training; the concept was there, but it wasn't being used as conceived, leaving a cognitive dissonance of "Why do we need S.D.C."?

How to fix it? Well, a simple fix is to move the 1D6 per level to SDC, but that doesn't address some larger problems. It's also useful to allow critical strikes to unarmored opponents to go straight to HP, instead of chopping through S.D.C.; that has the side-benefit of making real armor a benefit, since it protects you from critical hits. I'd define "unarmored" as "having an AR less than or equal to soft leather"... cloth armor isn't going to protect you a lot, though it might take a hit or two.

[lather]

And the world over still ponders why do we need SDC?

[Library Ogre]

2 - Called Shots

What rules (custom or not) do you use for making called shot ?

What about throwing a axe to a rope holding a big boxe, how do you evaluate the level of difficulties of called shots ?

I do not allowed called shots to body parts for instant kills. You want to hit someone in the hand to make them drop something? No problem. Hit them in the throat to stop them from talking? I can go with that, though there's a reason that you're getting all these modifiers on a small, well-protected target.

My general rule for called shots is a series of modifiers to the attack roll, rather than natural numbers; natural numbers make it a matter of luck, first, and skill, second, if you can make a shot. Penalties are modifiers on your skill, without the dice having any say.

-2 targeting an arm or leg
-4 targeting a weapon
-6 targeting a hand, foot, or head
-8 targeting something very small (eyes, particular fingers, etc.) (NB: The throat would fall into this category; while its the size of a hand, it's well protected)
-1 per 10% of range between you and target (ranged weapons only)
-2 if targeted object is moving (unless it is moving in a straight line at a steady pace)

Defenders also get a +1 to parry or dodge against a called shot; you have to telegraph your target to a certain extent.

3 - Localized Hit Points

I like the Idea ( especially with called shot) to separate hit points in different locations of the body, severing tentacles that still will not kill the Giant Squid, breaking one arm of a two handed sword wielder, aiming for the anckle of that guy with his small shield, etc.

What do you think about this ?

Given the nature of hit points (see my previous post), I think its a poor idea. Instead, you inflict penalties on people who get hit in certain vulnerable places. A called shot with a quarterstaff to an unarmored knee is going to cause some penalties to speed, strike, parry, and dodge from the pain and imbalance. With penalties, they'll die faster, but if they're skilled, and their opponents are not, penalties can be overcome.

[lather]

SDC represents how tough you are.
HPS represents your Vital Organs / Life Force.

But SDC probably should not remain static. Presumably you get tougher.

[Library Ogre]

And the world over still ponders why do we need SDC?

In the end, we do not; D&D has been doing with just Hit Points for more than 30 years.

However, as others have pointed out, there are advantages to S.D.C. as a mechanic. S.D.C. heals far faster which, in a game that doesn't abound with magical/psionic healing, is important. It makes the game somewhat more cinematic (since you can shrug off significant damage and keep going), and better differentiates between "lethal" and "non-lethal" wounds, providing a clear break for when penalties should start. There's the D&D phenomenon of "I'm fine so long as I have 1 HP"; you can do that in Palladium, but if you're using the optional HP damage tables, then you run into long-term damage as the character is smacked around.

(Looking at page 20 of PFRPG2, I don't think the tables are well-labeled; both are under a section which says "whenever you lose 80% of your HP", but it seems unlikely that you'd care much about a sprained wrist if you've got a punctured lung; I'd interpret the tables as meaning that the minor injury table is used when you're brought below 80% of your HP - 16 out of 20 - and the second is used when you're brought to only 20% or lower of your HP - 4 out of 20.)

[lather]

I agree in principle with SDC.

The particular design and implementation leave me wanting.

[Library Ogre]

PPS: Nice history Mark, thanks! do you mean finally that you add 1d6 to S.D.C "and" HP ?

No... just S.D.C.. HP only improves when your body gets tougher (PE goes up or rare circumstances)

[lather]

Makes me want to not use SDC.

[lather]

I would give a strength bonus. The stronger you are the harder you throw. Not sure if that is actually true but it seems like it to me.

[Probitas]

The problem with adding strength bonuses to thrown weapons is that over distance kinetic energy is lost beyond the pull of gravity, so the further away the target, the lower the amount of force applied on contact. Not much of an issue in short ranges, but at long ranges, obviously it won't hit as hard, or as accurately for that matter. Strength seems to provide extra range for the most part, but once the weapon leaves your hand, it starts losing that power. Only hand held weapons should provide strength bonuses that are static, even bows lose power with distance, except for crossbows and bows with cable assist; as the crossbow has shorter range to balance that out it seems ok except that crossbows don't use strength unless the crossbow itself has more strength increasing the amount of time to crank the windlass, and cable bows don't exist (my opinion) in PFRPG. I'd say the further away the target, the lower the bonus becomes with thrown weapons, and some weapons (the dagger for instance) can only do so much damage anyways due to the design and mass and so can't have strength bonuses applied in the usual fashion, so you can apply the strength bonus to max out the damage to say 6 of 6, and that's it.

This goes hand in hand with PE though, as the longer a fight runs, the harder it gets to swing the weapon at top speed, so you slowly lose power as a fight lengthens. Those with higher PE should be able to fight longer at full strength barring any damage being taken, as damage also slows you down once you reach a certain amount. This is also my opinion.

I understand it's a fantasy game, but to make it believable (and not munchkin) some basic rules and laws about the way things work are necessary to ground it.

[ZorValachan]

The main problem with SDC my group and I had with 2nd Ed: Armour SDC meant something in 1st Ed. In 2nd Ed with all the SDC and bonuses due to physical skills and base SDC made it so the players didn't want hits against them to be deflected by armour. I have 180 SDC myself, and I can heal! My armour has SDC:45 and I have to pay lots to get it repaired?

Hit me! hit me! I'm here. They added SDC to everyone and cut and pasted the weapon-armour damage/AR/SDC charts.

Personally, I like to use 1st Ed rules for everything except have 2nd Ed PPE costs for spells instead of spells per day.

And arrows..... In 1st edition the 1d6 or so was fine, as the average weapon was about 1d6. But add all the SDC, PS bonuses to melee, but not ranged and the longbowman is pitiful. We had a 'monster group' Ogres, trolls, orcs. I decided to be an orc longbowman. The troll wizard was a better fighter than me.

In a house rule, I'd make different bows have different PS requirements as to the strength needed to pull it back, then give any PS bonus for that requirement. So, if you needed a PS 16 to pull the bow back, you got the bonus of a PS of 16 (even if you had 17 or 18, etc. until you got a bow with a higher PS requirement)

I miss the shape-changing druids with the chance to go feral... Now we got hippies...

[OldGeek]

SDC in games where weapons can dish out 6d6 or 7d6 (rifles) or even just 4d6x10 (burst from some sub-machine guns) made it survivable (In some cases a bit silly survivable mind you, especially if you were a 'strictly by the book' type rather then a 'common sense' sort). I think that's why it may have been added.

In a game where most common weapons do 2d6 to 3d6, it can be a bit much. I like it, and use it, but I have a strict "explain that skill choice to me" policy. As such, munchins don't last long, and most folks only have a couple physical bonus type skills. It still makes for 2 to 3 times the 1st edition level one health levels mind you. Especially for wolfen, ogres and trolls. But I find it goes down quickly with the slightly increased weapon damages and higher PS levels. I also find the combat is more dramatic when players can realize their mistake over time rather then get killed at level 5 by one lucky crit from a level 1 wolfen (a 1st edition human had an average of 27 to 35 hp, at level 5, a 2d8 wolfen/ogre sword with a +1 or 2 damage from hand to hand has lead to a one hit kill or two). Deadly is good, but fodder deadly is less then fun. Put in a boss with a 6d6 rune sword...

In all cases Palladium's rules are best used as guidelines to be taken lightly IMO. Play on the rp and use common sense as much as possible. This is not a good system to lawyer with...