PW: Fleets and military spending

[KLM]

Hi there!

As much as I hate economics, I made a quick calculation.

Take a star system, with a population of 2.000 million
(instead of the 6.000 million+ of IRL. Also I will use M instead of
"million" ).

Now, take 50.000 Cr for each citizen annually, nets
a 100.000.000 MCr GDP. Remember, it is a starfaring
culture, with a higher standard of living than any country
on Earth (and for that matter, the US amounts about
40.000 USD per citizen).

If the goverment spends only one percent of that
(US around 5%) on defense purposes, and the
defense ministry spends only 10% of its budget
on the actual fighting force (ie: 90% goes for
upkeeping bases, veterans, feeding the armed forces,
whatever...), it has 1.000.000 M Cr annually.

Now, if I want my boys really professional (because
the Star Hives, Dominators and the TGE will not let
them survive otherwise), I assume that this amount of
hardware is used up in 5 years (actually not, but spent
on ammo, training of new soldiers, and the like), the actual
worth of my fighting forces is 5.000.000 M Cr.

Now before going further, please prove me wrong, because
if the budget spends for example 5% for ships of the line,
it gives 250.000 M, which is say, 500 Hunter class frigate and
25 Warshield class cruisers...

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

500 hunters and 25 warsheilds for every system? not bad. multiply by 200-300 for each galaxies branch of the CCW........


that begs a question, where are the starsystems filled with shipyards to build the 450,000 hunters and 22,500 warsheilds this calculation would net for this theoretical 900 primary member CCW?

though this would explain the reluctance to go to war. if the CCW can support 450K hunters and 22.5k warsheilds, the TGE could build 3-4 times as many equivlent ships, although the poor training offsets this. in any "total war" scenario, the CCW would get crunched fast.

[Braden Campbell]

Again from part of my rifter submission: Fleets of The Three Galaxies


Just How Big Are These Fleets?

There has never been a reliable census of any of the major fleets. There are simply so many ships, spread so far apart from their home ports, that all political leaders can do is take an educated guess based on production numbers. If a ship is destroyed or disappears in the Anvil Galaxy, the CAF HQ on Goldielox will hear about it two months after the fact… if anyone reported it at all. But in order to provide a guideline as to the number of ships that can be fielded by a unified star system, we use population as a measure.

To achieve the total fleet strengths for the various power blocs shown below, their entire population was divided by six billion; the assumption being that for every six billion citizens, 350 capital ships can be built. What we end up with is a mind-boggling number of starships.
One must remember, however, that space is big. The Corkscrew Galaxy alone is eight-tenths the size of our own Milky Way. That puts its stellar density at roughly 18 billion stars. Though huge numerically, the major fleets are spread very thin. Core systems will have substantial numbers of ships nearby. Using the scale below, for example, a solar system with 6 billion people in it could field 17 Dreadnoughts, 122 Cruisers, and 210 Frigates…plus fighters. (Terra Prime alone can sustain 10 times these numbers!) Outback planets, far from the hustle and bustle of galactic life, might only have two or three capital ships…if any.

Incidentally, these estimates are based upon the current fleet strengths of the various nations on Earth.

System Population Fleet Size Available*
10 million 60
50 million 90
250 million 150
1.25 billion 225
6.25 billion 350
*These are numbers of capital ships only. Space fighters are not included in these totals.

So now that we have a total number of ships to work with, we can break them down further into their various classes. When the overall fleets in The Three Galaxies are examined, it is found that the majority consists of frigate classes, either freighters or destroyers. These ships are easier to build than cruisers and dreadnoughts, and are more economical for the Independent Systems.

Ship Class Percentage of Fleet
Frigates 60%
Cruisers 35%
Flagships 5%

Approx. Fleet sizes (using above formula)
Consortium – 19,839 Flagships, 142,374 Cruisers, 245,070 Frigates
Transgalactic - 17,000 Flagships, 122,000 Cruisers, 210,000 Frigates
UWW – 1,411 Flagships, 10,126 Cruisers, 17,430 Frigates
Golgan Republik - 5,661 Flagships, 40, 626 Cruisers, 69,930 Frigates
*Splugorth Kingdoms – 187 Flagships, 1342 Cruisers, 2310 Frigates
**Altess Dynasty –

*These numbers are a total of all four Kingdoms, and may not be accurate in the least.
** The Altess numbers are based on a robot population of XXXX. Since there are only one million Armoria Officers (1% of the Altess population), without their vast droid armies, the Dynasty would be utterly defenseless. These numbers also do not include the vast numbers of mercenaries the Dynasty could draw upon if they truly needed to do so.

__________________________________________________________-

Give me a few more weeks and things like this wil be set in GM optional stone.

[LunarYoma]

if ya doing this, i am curious if you can do a comparison of the japanese at the hight of its power during world war 2 with its population, then extrapolate from there to todays population of japan.

[KLM]

Hi there!

Just touching two issues.

1,

if the CCW can support 450K hunters and 22.5k warsheilds, the TGE could build 3-4 times as many equivlent ships, although the poor training offsets this. in any "total war" scenario, the CCW would get crunched fast.

Disagreed.

For once, the CCW should have a higher budget, thought a lower
percantage of military spending. Still, we can assume, that
the TGE has about twice as much to spend on its military.

On the other hand, the CCW does not have a large ground
force, since it is usually not plans to take planets by force,
and it does not have to suppress that many planets, which
would rebel instantly, if the TGE legions were not there...

Therefore the CCW could muster a greater battlefleet,
and a smaller percentage of their forces are devoted to
ground assault (ie. less troop carriers and planetary assault
ships).

Add to this the large exploration force, which financially
does not count into the warfleet, but IS a formidable
force (especially because they are probably the fastest
FTL ships).

So, if a full scale CCW-TGE conflict erupts, i would bet
on the following schedule:
1, TGE suprise attack - CCW loses some planets
2, CCW counterattack, TGE begins to loose its fleet
3, The CCW recaptures its lost planets

At this point the TGE will sign a peace treaty, so it can
turn its attention to internal problems, rebuilding fleets,
suppress rebellions, power struggle and so on.
The CCW on the other hand - being a buerocratic democracy,
will do nothing, except selling surplus ships really cheap
to the rebels, but probably will not intervene more
directly... The CCW already has way too many casualties
for them to continue plus they do not want to pose
as conquerors.

Since this scenario is know to TGE analists too, they probably
will not strike unless they have a lasting superiority - either
by numbers or technology (and it is not hte case at the moment).

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Hi there!

Again from part of my rifter submission: Fleets of The Three Galaxies

System Population Fleet Size Available*
10 million 60
50 million 90
250 million 150
1.25 billion 225
6.25 billion 350

(...)
Ship Class Percentage of Fleet
Frigates 60%
Cruisers 35%
Flagships 5%

Now, according to the

http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/

The US Navy has 10 aircraft carriers, 12 amphibious assault ships,
17 nucler ballistic missile subs, so that is 39 "flagships"

It has 27 Ticonderoga class AEGIS cruisers.

It has 56 destroyers, 52 nuclear attack subs and 32 frigates
(140 "frigates")
-------------
Aside from that I have to disagree with the above
percental fleet composition.

I think a well balanced fleet needs way more "escort"
ships, because while the above percentage is good for
a task force breakdown, there are countless assignments
which demand a frigate or two at most.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Hi there!

Now assuming that the above numbers are true,
we have quite a large fleet.

But given the stats presented, a lone Doombringer
cannot stomp on a system anymore, thought is
should (that is what they are made for, right?).

Also, the text section states, that the Kreeghors
have 23 of them (or so).

So, we have a choice:
1, dismiss my calculation
2, crounch up the statistics (and price!) of capital
ships
3, raise the number of ships

While option #1 has its advantages , I vote for
#2, mainly because #3 will have an effect of inflation...
...which I find unpleasant.

Like when we have only 24 Doombringers and rebels
seize one of them, it is a real chance and difference.

But when the FWC starts and they seize one of
the 4000 Doombringers, it is not big deal. Alternatively
they can seize like a 100 of them, which is lame...

Opinions?

Adios
KLM

[Braden Campbell]

Up until a hundred years ago, it was commonly accepted that a CG-field projector could only be made to encompass a set area and a finite amount of mass. The average limitations were a field diameter of 6000’ and a total mass of 60 million tons. Beyond that, the energy requirements became staggering, and the CG-field stretched too thin to be able to fully cancel out the effect of normal gravitons. To put it simply, if a ship was built bigger than a standard carrier, it could not be wrapped in a contra-gravity field, and thus could not move faster than light.

This meant that for the longest time, the Packmaster was the undisputed king of the space lanes. Then, in the aftermath of the Good Hope Rebellion, word began to circulate that the rebels had captured a new kind of Kreeghor vessel: a “super carrier”-class called Kartuhum-Koridu, the Doombringer. By all reports, this captured starship measured over three miles in length with an estimated mass in the range of 100 million tons. Consortium fleet scientists dismissed these rumors as being wishful thinking. There was no physical way to build an engine that could move such a mass. Such a construction could only be an orbiting space station, unable to move a few hundred feet let alone travel faster than light.

But when the CCW and the TGE both found themselves fighting the Splugorth Kingdom of Rynncryll, fifty years ago, the existence of the Doombringer was confirmed. Consortium engineers flew into a panic. Galactic Security Agents tried for years afterwards to steal the secrets of its miraculous propulsion system. Finally, it was learned that the Kreeghor had devised a method of “chain-linking” three gravitonic generators together to create one, massive, stable field. (Actually, credit eventually went to the Machine People for the new drive design, and again the Consortium regretted its decision to exclude them from membership.)

The Doombringer could travel quite well at FTL velocities, with a top speed of seven light-years per hour. The CAF poured a trillion credits into hurried research, and were finally able to create their own version of the “chain-linked” system called a “Balanced Hammond Drive”. A fresh arms race was on between the two largest power blocs of The Three Galaxies, and new class of ship had been born: the Dreadnought.

Dreadnoughts are the biggest ships out there, with the notable exception of the Dominator Star Forts. They are so powerful and so complicated, that the average construction time for a single ship is four years! The TGE currently have twenty-three ships of the Doombringer-class, the Free World Council commands one of the same design. The Consortium is trying to catch up as best it can, but so far only twelve of the new Emancipation-class dreadnoughts have been built. (see the CAF Fleet entry for details).

Dreadnoughts are the least common type of starship in The Three Galaxies, in large part because of their crippling cost. Using the shells of the Nuk Rek Nuss, slave labor, and the aid of the Machine People (who neither care about money nor require sleep), the Transgalactic Empire can build a dreadnought for a paltry 50 billion credits. For just about everyone else, however, constructing one of these ships can run into the trillions. Development and construction of the Emancipation-class ships have cost the Human Alliance a staggering 856 trillion credits. To put this in perspective, the Gross Domestic Product for all of Terra Prime is 400 trillion credits per annum. Thus, in order to match the Kreeghor, the Human Alliance has spent all the money in the world. Twice.
______________________________________________________

Again from my Rifter submission.

I vote for a combonation of all three solutions: leave the number of dreadnoughts the same, increase the rest of fleet by a great amount (it will be still be sprad thin... galaxies are big places), and make the cost of some ships run into the trillions of credits.

In the above scenario, there is a new arms race on, akin to the naval build up of the early 1900's, when the German and British fleets consistantly tried to outdo each other.

[KLM]

Hi!

I have to disagree you in some points:

#1,
While some R&D teams in their "ivory towers"
could dissmiss the possibility of giant ships
as technical impossibility, the CAF encountered
Dominator ships a couple of times.

It is like saying "iron ships cannot float" while
the Yamato is pounding you with 1,5 ton grenades

#2,
While I admit, that I hate and does not excel in economics,
and the TGE runs its economy much like the Soviet Union
did (we need this project - then we allocate the neccessary
resources, and we do not care about rubels) so the construction
of their organic-hull ships costs quite a small amount
of their actual credits, but economically (as a science)
it still costs a fortune.
It is like we have those shells for almost free, our breeding
planets only put out a finite amount of it.
So, when it is decided by the emperor, that they need another
Doombringer, it means that they will produce like 10.000 Berserkers
less....
Similar calculation stand for slaves. (As a side note: Machine
People will care for money, just like every sentient, mortal being)
Finally, nothing prevents the CCW from using largely automated
shipyards (and mines, and factories), and robots absolutely
not need money, they need energy - but still consume less
resources then slaves, which must be feed, need air, gravity,
etc.
And robots rebel less frequently

To be continued...

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

in regards to the dreadnaught issue, perhaps normal CG drives have a "upper efficency limit". basically, over a certain size/mass, the efficency drops to the point its not worth building the ship with a generator to run it. (in this cenario, a single CG drive could get a "dreadnaught" up to speed, but the powerplant needed would limit your firepower to roughly that of a normal battleship.)
would you build an "uber" ship with the same firepower, protection, and speed as an heavy cruiser, but masses 3x more and needs 2x the crew?


likewise, the dominator ships could have puzzled the CCW, since by their math the drives shouldn't be working at all. but since the dominator ships do, obviously something solved it. either a better drives, or a better powersource (actually both)

so when the CCW needed to build a huge ship, they found a shortcut in mounting 3 CG drives that alone wouldn't be powerful enough, but when synched generated the nessicary feild within the efficency range needed.

then they find out the doombringer followed the "oversized cruiser" method, and the threat wasn't all that big.

[KLM]

Hi there!

Here comes the „I agree with Branden”

Ships must have their stats ubered. I always
Hated when the 500 ton Proctor has about 1450
MDC, while the 12.000 ton Scimitar has only
5000… (yes, they have shields, but then the comparison
will be 3850 vs. 11.000 – about the same 3:1, while
their mass is like 24:1 )

This shall make ships more expensive, but do not make
them bigger – on the top end the 4 km long Doombringer,
with its 40 million ton cargo bay seems to be sufficient
to conquer almost ANY planet, even when its stats does
not support this possibility.

So we can stick to the „24 Doombringers in the TGE”.


As for Glitterboy2098 and the linked CG generator
problem:

Since star travel via CG drive is ancient by any standard,
the concept of „one CG generator per ship” should have
boggled almost all military analists.
Most military minds know, that sooner THAN later
all and every toys of ours will be damaged. Either by
the enemy or just by Murphy.
So, as Murphy stated, everything WILL break down,
so have every possible system multiplied.

Therefore I highly doubt that linking generators is such
a breakthrought idea…

As for bigger ships’ efficiency problem:
If we assume that depleting – say – half of a ships
MDC means only armor damage, then making a
Dreadnought which has twice the firepower and
defense of a cruiser, but is needs 5 times as much
crew and tonnage – so be it.

But do not forget: the Phase World dimension book stated, that
the TGE abandoned their „russian” style mass frigate attacks
because of the horrible losses – so ship desing rules should
reflect this, as a fact

Adios
KLM

[Braden Campbell]

Hi there!

Here comes the „I agree with Branden”

Thank God. I was starting to wonder...

You would probably hate what I've done to starfighters in this article...maybe we'll discuss why they are useful/useless in a different thread.

What I was going for, is a reason why the CCW doesn't build (in the books we have so far, that is) Dreadnoughts hen they should be. And also exploring a gaming-reality reason why the universe is simply not filled with Dolza Command Fortresses nuking entire star systems, and dog fighting it out with Death Stars.

IRL, it was assumed that a battle ship of a certain size could not be pushed by the engines of the day. But with the invention of HMS Dreadnought, and its revolutionary "triple flow" engine design, suddenly the upper mass limit of ships went up...way up. And all the other power blocs had to keep pace.

However, if we come up with a new super-improved CG drive that does Warp 7, then you have to upgrade ALL existing canon ships with the new drive. Saying that it was an energy output to mass ratio not only makes sense, but it really happened.

[KLM]

Hi there!

Sadly, I am not up to date with RIFTERs, to be
polite.


So I had no preconceptions nor pro, nor contra.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Just refreshing the topic, in case someone interested...

Adios
KLM

[Greyaxe]

THis information will be available in the forthcomming Spaceships book for PW which was origionally going to be arifter submission and was expanded into a book.

[Aramanthus]

That is yet another reason to get it!

[Braden Campbell]

Read the new Press release, my man.

Hoping to get it out this fall or winter.

[Aramanthus]

With all of their problems they have to start making their deadlines! So I hope it makes it!

[Aramanthus]

That is true. But we have believe that PB will not only get back on their feet, but will be more vigorous after they are fully recovered from their financial woes.

[Aramanthus]

They really need to start doing better with deadlines!

[KLM]

Thread necromany.

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

I see that you are necromancy KLM. I have to try it once in awhile too.