Contraception, Abortion, and Polygamy in Rifts?

[Hotrod]

Question: since men die younger than women do even today, and since men would probably die faster than women in the world of Rifts (More dangers, and men always tend towards the more dangerous occupations), and since, biologically-speaking, it only takes one man to impregnate plenty of women, would polygamy become more socially acceptable in Rifts?

Additionally, since the human race has its back against the wall, it would seem reasonable to encourage maximum human reproduction to help out the odds, long-term. What would the CS, for example think about outlawing abortions and contraceptives?

I'm reminded of the new Battlestar Galactica's pilot, where the president talks about their need to run away and make babies.

[GhostKnight]

I don't know about pologomy since you have to decide wheter it's the "traditional" of any wives and a single husband or many husbands for a single wife, so I doubt that would take. On the other hand contraceptives and abortions would be illegal wiith the rich and elite finding ways to bend the rules for appearince sake.

There's no reason it would be illegal. Or much of anything illegal for that matter.

It's up to the GM. It's your story.

[GhostKnight]

In the Coalition, I doubt that Prosek would allow much voluntary abortion; he's looking for all the humans he can get.

Humans today are living longer, healthier lives through greater medical attention. I can see the Coalition using bioengineering to "create" humans who are even more immune to disease, infection, and aging. With that respect, artificial insemination of a proven donors' sperm and egg would be rampant.

There are to many humans for the CS to integrate. Just look at all those waiting in the burbs.

I think there are several references as to human bioengineering being outlawed in the CS (though secret experiments conducted in Texas).

[Killer Cyborg]

Question: since men die younger than women do even today, and since men would probably die faster than women in the world of Rifts (More dangers, and men always tend towards the more dangerous occupations), and since, biologically-speaking, it only takes one man to impregnate plenty of women, would polygamy become more socially acceptable in Rifts?

In some areas, yes.
In some areas, no.

I don't imagine that it would be common or acceptable in the CS cities, no matter how practical it might be.
But there would be plenty of backwoods kingdoms where it would be acceptable, common, or even the rule.

Additionally, since the human race has its back against the wall, it would seem reasonable to encourage maximum human reproduction to help out the odds, long-term. What would the CS, for example think about outlawing abortions and contraceptives?

I could see the CS outlawing abortion for healthy, normal humans.
For psychics, mutants, D-Bees, etc. etc., it would likely be mandatory (at least in some cases).

[GhostKnight]

abortion is outlawed, large families are encouraged and flawed or diseased children are left to die on hillsides like what the Romans used to do (only healthy offsrping have a chance of making it into the military, thus helping to ensure citizenship). those that can afford genetic engineering to help perfect their own children can do so, ala Gataca, but most are way to poor to afford this option.

Polygamy may or may not be allowed depending on which state you are in and may only be reserved for the powerful and inlfuencial members of the CS. while in the poorest parts of the CS like the burbs, marriage may not even be a consideration and they either have a life partner or simply move around from bed to bed (as long as they don't get caught by their other halves that is).

Why?

[Ravenwing]

Man peeps here are so wrong, I don't even know where to start.


First there is no genetic manupulation of humans, it's outlawed, remember. Except for Bradfords, ultra secret, ultra illegal experiments.

Abortion is illegal, we're talking about a nation that made a slave race of ANIMALS to send into areas to dangerous for human life. Contrary to everones view of the CS bogey men, human life is SACRED, more so then God, or any other thing. Therefore, logic dictates that abortion would be illegal.

On Polygamy, the CS as a whole is non-religous, and since today most anti-polgamist use religon as the foundation of there argument against it. It would seem logical that the CS would allow it. Especially when one considers that even today females out number males upwards of 21:1 atleast by the last census. This is a trend found throughout nature, and is a biological defense mech, used by all species on life, or nearly so. ( male seahorses, I think , out number females) Also rifts is a post apoc world, and males typically serveing in more war, agressive ocupations and die off quicker, that females would outnumber males, as they would be better suited, vie' numbers, to survive. More females, equels more to breed, therefore, more men would have more then one wife. Although I would think it my be limited to the number you could support. As the Cs has no welfare system, as written.

[Killer Cyborg]

On Polygamy, the CS as a whole is non-religous, and since today most anti-polgamist use religon as the foundation of there argument against it. It would seem logical that the CS would allow it. Especially when one considers that even today females out number males upwards of 21:1 atleast by the last census. This is a trend found throughout nature, and is a biological defense mech, used by all species on life, or nearly so. ( male seahorses, I think , out number females) Also rifts is a post apoc world, and males typically serveing in more war, agressive ocupations and die off quicker, that females would outnumber males, as they would be better suited, vie' numbers, to survive. More females, equels more to breed, therefore, more men would have more then one wife. Although I would think it my be limited to the number you could support. As the Cs has no welfare system, as written.

The CS isn't exactly non-religious; they're just not actively religious.
The image painted of the CS is that they would generaly be all for '50s-style ethics/morality and the nuclear family. Most likely the only reason why they're not Good Christians is because KS doesn't want to have Christianity enter into his gameworld on that level.
There's no mention that I remember, anywhere, of any CS NPCs having multiple spouses. Only a single wife.
Polygamy just isn't their thing.

[Jefffar]

It depends on the state involved and how dire it's situation would be.

Some states will have voluntary abortion, some will have necessary abortion only, some will have the means to prevent abortions ever being necissary and some will require abortions when necissary.

Contraception will be legal in some states and strictly regulated in others.

Polygamy will be allowed in some states, banned in others, and officially encouraged in a few.

I suspect there is some state out there on Rifts Earth that has actually banned "marriage" and women are supposed to have as many children with as wide a variety of fathers as possible, The children are then raised communally by dedicated child care specialists while the mothers get preggers again.


Incidently KC, I'm not sure the heirarchy of the CS would encourage the worship of a suprnatural being - not when the personality cult of Prosek is the official state religion.

[Ravenwing]

Man peeps here are so wrong, I don't even know where to start.

our opinions on the matter were asked by the maker of the thread and people are simply giving it. does it really matter if their ideas go against the holy bible ... erm ... i mean the RUE?

besides some here might think that what is presented in the RUE just doesn't make sense to them so they change it to their liking, it doens't make them wrong.

My first statement wasn't ment to be an insult. Nexttime I'll use emicons.

[Ravenwing]

kool.

Besides I change almost everything about rifts,lol

[Library Ogre]

Just a note: I get a little frank here. Not graphic, just frank. If you think abstinence only is the way to go, then skip this post.

Abortion and contraception are as old as humanity. However, I think that the era of Rifts is going to provide a lot more options for it. The people of the Coalition States, and many other human societies on Rifts Earth, have achieved a level on Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs that they can start thinking about things above food, shelter, and safety... and right after that is friendship, family, and sexual intimacy. They are going to think about these things, and come up with ways to deal with the problems caused by everyone's favorite couple's sport.

First of all, as others have said, the CS does not really have a population problem... any time they need more people, they draft those who are on the waiting list. Boom. The Burbs lose residents, the CS gains probationary citizens. Outside the CS, children are going to remain a resource of variable utility... on the one hand, they can be useful for increasing a farm's productivity. On the other, they can be a drain on resources when the resources are tight. Thus, family planning, from contraception to abortion to infanticide are probably going to fairly common. Let's look at the options in order of operations.

Contraception. There's all the methods we have today; natural fertility cycles, condoms (which are going to be very rare outside of very large economies, IMO), and possibly variants on the new gel that they can inject in the vas defrens (it's supposed to wash out after 9 years, or earlier if you put in another countering agent... and sometimes way earlier). Of course, there's also the sterilization options of vascetomies and tubal ligations.

Magic and psionics are going to play into this. First of all, you have the how simple Psychic Diagnosis and Psychic Surgery makes tubal ligation and vascetomy. It would also not surprise me if someone had developed a psychic power or a magical spell which allowed for contraception; I'm not going to bother with the purient details, but don't be surprised if it exists, and is very old. You also have the higher-tech end of things. I don't doubt that they have specially programmed IRMSS kits in larger cities that allow for home vascetomies and reversals.

Abortion. There's a fair number of herbal abortifacients that are likely in wide use; pennyroyal, nutmeg, mugwort, and others have been in use for millenia; pharmaceutical ones are likely also available in larger economies, as well. Larger cities might have specialized abortion clinics, but I see abortions falling mostly to ob/gyns and Body Fixers.

Once again, though, Rifts-era technology is going to be a big deal. After the Bomb has a specialized psychic power called "Cell Reader", and its cousin "Advanced Cell Reader", which allows the psychic to look at two people and tell what kinds of kids they will make. Will they be deformed? Will they have weird mutations or psychic powers? I think such a power or spell would be in use in many places, but, again, it's going to be an old one... it's the kind of thing that MUST exist, because everyone would want it, but it's not going to be detailed, because fewer GAMERS would want it. Especially in the Coalition, though, I can see such pre-natal screening being common, and some parents choosing to abort babies who will be psychic or mutated (remember, there IS a stigma against psychics... they're useful, but they're not fully human). In the wilderness, screening will be what's available... psychic, magic, or such limited technology as they have... and their reasons for aborting (or not aborting) will be local... resources, mutation, local prejudice against psychics, etc.. The techniques will be much what you think; psychic surgery and the healing touch, a undisclosed spell, or some variant on the IRMSS when they're available. Detecting pregnancy, I imagine, will also come down to simple things; I'd be willing to be a See Aura will detect a pregnancy soon after implantation.

Finally, infanticide. This one is likely the least changed, and likely the most common in wilderness communities where pre-natal screening isn't available. Infanticide is never considered a good option, merely a best of the bad. Infanticide is going to be exposure, most often, though outright killing a baby who is thought to be possessed or in control of unnatural powers is a possibility. Immediate post-natal psychic diagnosis or See Aura will save a lot of problems when possible.

[Ravenwing]

Especially when one considers that even today females out number males upwards of 21:1 atleast by the last census.

Funny you should mention that. In Asia, the population of male to female is almost 2 to 1. It is a problem that Asians are trying so hard to fix. This is especially true with India and until recently, rural China.

I've read that also. I've also seen (on the TV) about a village in northern china( I think) where the females don't belive in traditional marriage. The females outnumber the males, and are in charge. Or atleast from what I gathered they did.

[Kryzbyn]

Until theres a CS Utah...no polygamy

[Rockwolf66]

Condoms are made out of things other than Rubber and Plastic. We of Scandinavian blood have been making working condoms since the dark ages. it's called animal intestine that has been tied off on one end.

More information can be found Here

While large families can be nice, somtimes it's best to have some control over when they are born.

[Library Ogre]

Until theres a CS Utah...no polygamy

I didn't include polygamy because that's going to be a very cultural thing... I could easily write a town where polygamy was common, a town where polyandry (more than one male spouse) was common, or one where polygyny (more than one female spouse) was common. These towns could be a few miles away from each other. The facts about contraception, pregnancy, abortion, and infanticide are going to come down to technologies... psionic, magical, and manufacture.

FWIW, I don't think that the CS would be much into polygamy; in a functional, and relatively balanced and sexually egalitarian society such as the CS (i.e. the vast majority of CS citizens are above the first stage of Mazlo's heirarchy of needs, and none are restricted on the basis of gender), polygamous relationships tend to be a matter of personal choice, rather than need. When a society opts for polygamy, it's usually the result of some fairly severe pressures or power imbalances. While power imbalances exist within the CS, there's a theory that they do not.

[Killer Cyborg]

Incidently KC, I'm not sure the heirarchy of the CS would encourage the worship of a suprnatural being - not when the personality cult of Prosek is the official state religion.

They wouldn't encourage it, but they wouldn't entirely discourage it either.
People don't let go of their Gods easily, and religion can be used to control the masses.
And the CS's favorite religion would be one where the God wasn't likely to show up in person.

[gaby]

I think Abortion will be illegal in the CS,Humans staing the Majorty in North America very imortant to them.

You can have Polygamy with the D-Bees races.

I change the Amazons from South America,so they have Polygamy.

[Library Ogre]

Incidently KC, I'm not sure the heirarchy of the CS would encourage the worship of a suprnatural being - not when the personality cult of Prosek is the official state religion.

They wouldn't encourage it, but they wouldn't entirely discourage it either.
People don't let go of their Gods easily, and religion can be used to control the masses.
And the CS's favorite religion would be one where the God wasn't likely to show up in person.

That IS a point, isn't it? The CS has only been anti-magic for about 100 years; while that's a fair chunk of time, there's also a significant period of time where people would've been religious. And since Jesus is a no-show on Rifts Earth, then you've got a good religion for the CS.. Hankism, where he'll give you a million dollars when you leave town, but he'll kick your ass if you don't believe in him.

[Subjugator]

I don't know that *anything* would be illegal, but polygamy would probably be more acceptable.

I just wish it was acceptable and legal today in the USA.

I'd even settle for legal.

/Sub

[Nightmaster]

Incidently KC, I'm not sure the heirarchy of the CS would encourage the worship of a suprnatural being - not when the personality cult of Prosek is the official state religion.

They wouldn't encourage it, but they wouldn't entirely discourage it either.
People don't let go of their Gods easily, and religion can be used to control the masses.
And the CS's favorite religion would be one where the God wasn't likely to show up in person.

Then Christianism would not be the supported one.

The basis of the Christian faith is about the coming of the Messias that was Jesus and the several miracles he worked and so on. He, Jesus, is God that appeared in person, so that would make the Christian religion a no no to the CS leaders to support.

On the other hand Islamism or Judaism are religions where "God" dont have appeared in person and that pretty much are vague in the portrait of God to its believers.

I am not a specialist of religions but I bet that this would be the ones to be supported by the CS if they ever allowed the workship of any religion on the nation to begin off.

[Nightmaster]

And all the angels and other miracles of Judaism and Islam?

They are not the "God" of the religion, only servants.

The CS would never allow a religion of any sort because of their policy against anything that is "Supernatural". If they allowed something like that it would have to be like KC said, some form of religion that didnt show "God" as a image of some sort as it is with the Christian religion, in which God manifested himself as Jesus on Earth.

[Killer Cyborg]

Incidently KC, I'm not sure the heirarchy of the CS would encourage the worship of a suprnatural being - not when the personality cult of Prosek is the official state religion.

They wouldn't encourage it, but they wouldn't entirely discourage it either.
People don't let go of their Gods easily, and religion can be used to control the masses.
And the CS's favorite religion would be one where the God wasn't likely to show up in person.

Then Christianism would not be the supported one.

Jesus showed up once, thousands of years ago, and he isn't really supposed to come back (by the time of Rifts Earth, maybe he came back to usher in tha apocalypse).

Other gods are showing up "now" on Rifts Earth, and their followers exhibit magical powers.

The CS would go Jesus all the way.
(Although they'd also be decent fans of Bob.)

[Kryzbyn]

Things would get awfully silly if Splynn is mistaken for the Flying Spaghetti Monster...

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm with Nexx on this. In the CS they have tech to make it a moot point. Be it condoms, "The Pill", "The Shot" or the lil robot kits that are just programed to disallow the implantation of a fertalized egg in the womb.

Outside of the CS Cities it's like he said, people have been controlling their bodys long before we had laser rifles, be it herbal or more physical methods. These things won't be lost and would easily be refound.

I also agree that there would be a very low level magic spell (( 1 to 3rd level)) and corresponding psychic power that allowes for both contriceptiopn and easy abortion.

In Rifts earth it's pretty much going to be a "non" issue save for in literal stone age technology sort of locals. and.. sadly as he pointed out, they can still control their population by killing the babys that make it.


As for multible wives. *chuckels* I doubt the CS is too keen on it, if nothing else, just the legalities of devorce. I don't know that they'd out law it but they arn't out there encouraging people to reproduce, to the point of stopping them from.. stopping. As noted if they 'need' more people they just let more in from the Burbs. Their population groath (( Natural)) Is factored in. If CS City G had 1000 births this month but they need 1200 new people, they take the 1000 births and add in 200 from the burbs.

That's ever ever ever so much easier than telling a woman she can't have a kid or must have more kids or what ever, and simplisity does so tend to govern life.

I think many of their 'moral blocks' that are present today would be minimalized in Rifts time. Not gone, but minimalized.

When you have dragons that can hide in the shape of a house cat, morph and destroy your entire block, and bite cha face off, who diddles who and who has who's kid pale a smidge.

[Subjugator]

(Although they'd also be decent fans of Bob.)

Do not mock The Great Dobbs!

/Sub

[Subjugator]

I think some people here are over-doing it, someone may get insulted sooner or later about religion.

Uhh...you *do* know who Bob Dobbs is, right?

He's the central figure of the Church of the Subgenius

Even the "members" of the church don't take it seriously.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

I wasn't talking Bob Dobbs. I meant the guys who keeps poking at Jesus....

Sowwee.



/Sub

[jgants]

I'm just going to have the CS in my game be associated with the "Western Branch of American Reform Presbylutheranism" church.

[GA]

I imagine the CS city of Chi-Town to have a lot of over-population issues. For this reason I would imagine abortion (perhaps state mandated) and a 2 children per couple policy similar to what China has today. I can't imagine many kingdoms outlawing abortion or contraception in the world of Rifts, however the availability for this could be limited. You might be able to find a backwoods doctor anywhere for an abortion but contraception would probably be harder to find.

Polygamy could maybe go either way; out in the wilderness it could be common place. In areas like Chi-Town I don't see it happening just because its harder to track people's parentage in polygamous relationships. I also don't see a police state like Chi-Town allowing polygamy.

On men and women, I think women would be (or should be) pretty equal to men when you are fighting for your collective lives. I see women as much as soldier and fighter characters in this world as men. You can draw a comparison between Rifts and the world of the Terminator movies in that respect. The idea of women staying home while their men fight the big bad d-bees I don't think is an accurate depiction of the Rifts world....or maybe shouldn't be one. I've read a little of the Tolkeen Wars to see that Chi-Town is sort of depicted that way but why the sexes are stuck in the 50s in that kind of world I'm not real sure about.

[Library Ogre]

we should treat the game as is. With all the "gods" and demons walking around in there, we don't really need real world religions.

But they have them. So far, Palladium has just selectively decided which religions to insult, and they've kept their hands off of ones that regard C-4 as an interfaith debate technique.

Moreover, dealing with abortion is more a morality issue.

In the modern day, perhaps. In Rifts Earth, it may often come down to a mortality issue... as in "If we don't abort, the mother will die in labor" or "If we have another mouth to feed, everyone starves." There is no welfare, and the ground can only be made so fertile. Unless you live in a mega-city, sometimes it is best to kill those that are not yet with you than condemn those that are.

[jgants]

we should treat the game as is. With all the "gods" and demons walking around in there, we don't really need real world religions.

Moreover, dealing with abortion is more a morality issue.

I don't know about that. I can see it not being in the books, but religions are a large part of culture, and the different cultures all mixed together can make for some interesting role-playing if you like that kind of thing.

For example, I envision Chi-Town as having many different cultural neighborhoods (as the survivor of Chicago and all). It should have large minority populations of Muslim, Catholic, Orthodox, and Jewish faiths combined with the various racial groups.

Or, for example, the CS states of Missouri and Arkansas might be predominantly Southern Baptist. But Lone Star might actually have a Catholic majority from a larger Hispanic population, giving it a different feel.

As for the "gods" and "demons" - they are simply high-powered alien beings in my games; not actual deities.

[Jefffar]

Or perhaps the advances in Golden Age science lead to a much more secularized world in whch religious beliefs faded into obscurity?

[jgants]

Or perhaps the advances in Golden Age science lead to a much more secularized world in whch religious beliefs faded into obscurity?

Alternatively, the new dark age could have plunged the majority of humanity back into something like paganism. As you travel the countryside, the small towns could be filled with "Wicker Man" type villagers (though hopefully moreso from the original than the remake).

[Rahmota]

Umm actually may I point out something here?

A few people have said that they doubt the CSA would allow Polygamy as it would be difficult to keep track of parentage and all in such a relationship. If the CSA has sufficient ability to scan and manipulate DNA to clone cattle for foodstocks as well as create all the fun stuff in the Lone Star Book then why couldnt they have every citizen be genetically registered and their DNA kept on record?

It would make sense not just from the practical standpoint of birth certificates and death certificates and paternity and all but from a CSI (think Gattaca) standpoint, as well as no more Lost Soldiers. Even if the soldier is reduced to a little greasy spot at least you can figure out who they where from that spot.

Also I have had my CSA develop their own blend of a pseudo-religious personality cult based on Humanism. With the emphasis on the superiority of the human form and race throughout the multiverse. Coupled with a very healthy dose of aetheism as any being that has magical powers cannot be trusted etc..

[Ravenwing]

Sign me up for the Harem. My titan would love that.

[Ravenwing]

of course you would.

Just cuz' I have more drive then others isn't my fault. J/J

[Ravenwing]

Don't waste those millions of tadpoles, right!

Well if the fish are biting, might as well throw a pole in the water

[Ravenwing]

Good follow up!

Thank you, thank you.