Increasing magic attacks per round?

[The Galactus Kid]

Well, as of R:UE Spells level 1-5 take one action to cast, 6-10 require 2, and 11-15 require 3. Magic is now pretty balaced (in my opinion) so more attacks per melee = more spell attacks. Battle mages are even more deadly than they were...

[DocS]

I learned a harsh lesson recently on magic users...

The spells cost too much, aren't effective enough, and the new bit about not being able to wear full suits of normal armor without a PPE penalty... What is that!? Do they start with magic armor as an option? If not, this just puts a giant 'kick my butt' sign on any magic user.

Any spell that does damage? Toss it out and give your magic user a gun instead (My character gave up on his call lightning and used a pistol instead... worked MUCH better). Any spell that requires a saving throw? Toss it out since it will work, at best, only 60% of the time (A 12 or higher is not difficult to roll, and it gets much worse if the being actually has some bonus.... they should put that as a warning label on 'constrain being' "Warning... even under the best conditions, this non-ritual form of spell only works six times out of ten").

There are other spells, and limiting oneself to those can allow you to have a character who is effective provides he's not foolish enough to try magic in combat (no kidding, the spell I was the most thankful for in the last campaign I was in.. was 'sustennance'), oh wait, since spell casting requires chanting, you can't throw the spell 'quietly', so you really can only do it in situations where people don't mind your spell casting, so you may want to be extra careful on any sort of 'see aura' type spells because if you cast it on someone, they know you're casting a spell on them and they will shoot you in the head rather than actually allow you to cast it...

True story, my character met some people, he didn't speak their language, he thought the 'tongues' spell would be a good idea, they tried to shoot him in the head while he was casting it since all they knew was he was spell casting...

Moral of the story, magic requires a disproportionate level of care for the small effects that it can do well. You can theorize a million situations where magic is useful, but in general, magic works solely when used to augment technology. Using it as a sole substitute will get your but kicked.

[The Galactus Kid]

many spells are x ammount of damage per level, so you might have gotten rid of call lightning, but by the time you are level 5 or 6, 5D6 or 6D6 damage that is a GURANTEED HIT if you are outside is pretty nice. And thats not even if you are near a nexus or ley line. our magic user took out a megajuicer that way. pretty badass if you ask me.

[rat_bastard]

besides, the real power of magic has very little to do with the amount of damage done and everything to do with the shear amount of misc effects done.

[Killer Cyborg]

Moral of the story, magic requires a disproportionate level of care for the small effects that it can do well. You can theorize a million situations where magic is useful, but in general, magic works solely when used to augment technology. Using it as a sole substitute will get your but kicked.

Agreed.
And that's how it should be.

[Killer Cyborg]

many spells are x ammount of damage per level, so you might have gotten rid of call lightning, but by the time you are level 5 or 6, 5D6 or 6D6 damage that is a GURANTEED HIT if you are outside is pretty nice. And thats not even if you are near a nexus or ley line. our magic user took out a megajuicer that way. pretty badass if you ask me.

And you're right.
The down side is that it takes a long time to regain your PPE reserves, and if you rely solely on magic then your PPE will get used up pretty rapidly.
The simple solution is not to rely solely on magic.
It's a great ace in the hole, but a lot of the everyday combat can be solved just as well by a laser rifle.

[Killer Cyborg]

I agree that the new armor rules for magic completly blow. One of the top five changes that really peeved me in RUE (along with cyber-knight combat and MDC psi stalkers).

Agreed.
One of the things that drew me to Rifts in the first place was that mages could use the same armor and weapons as anybody else, instead of being stuck with robes, daggers, and darts.

[Killer Cyborg]

How can one increase the number attacks per round when dealing with magic? I know physical HtH and skills can add physical attacks, but do they add to magical attacks as well?

Thank You,
Deuce

In addition to the stuff already pointed out, some of the early Palladium games have a Magical Combat skill that can increase the number of spells you can cast per melee. Transdimensional TMNT, IIRC, has this skill.

[Nikoli]

Funny, I find the casters to be incredibly effective when used properly.
Throwing Stones is one of the most economical uses of PPE of any spell in the game. 5 PPE, 2 Melee rounds, 1d6+1/level
At 5th level you can hit 6 attacks per melee easily, so that's 11 rocks to be thrown with an average 88 MDC for all of 5 PPE and they give a penalty to dodge and parry and a bonus to strike.

Juicer got you down, no problem.
Energy Disruption has no save, a 60' range and costs only 12 PPE.
No more drugs for the little adict for the next 3 minutes/level.

Simple Invisibility is awesome for getting past wave after wave of low-threat mooks.

The trick has always been to apply the force in the right amount in the right direction.
Buffing your fellows up is fine and dandy. Create a niche for yourself, get comfy then expand.
My current favorite character started with almost no attack spells but a nice selection of utility spells, odd ball skills and a decent laser pistol.

Yes, the armor rule is no fun, I think it bites, especially since the R:UE didn't include prices for replacement of the armor and very few options for buying new suits.
By the way, Make Whole, Create Wood and Create Metal can be money makers for your magical character in a big way if used properly. Also, it pays to learn how to Salvage and Recycle.
Cleanse is just all around useful; remember that the next time you crawl/swim your way down the neck hole of a dead hydra looking for your informant who got swallowed up a few rounds prior.

Pick up the Book of Magic and learn what spells your class can learn from other traditions, if any, and work with your Gm on aquiring them. Present them with a wishlist of things you'd like to eventually get, that way they can know what to make available and possibly find new things to add to the game. My GM is talking about letting us make a trip to South America becuase I said I'd like to learn some Nazca Line Magic once I learn about it in game. Of course, this opens up the obligatory trip through Mexico which will be oodles of RP fun for my TA Ley Line Walker not to mention the possiblity of foiling slaver raids from the Slpoogies and aquiring new technology to sell back in North America.

[Preacher]

I agree that magic in Palladium is not geared anywhere near exclusively for combat, it can certainly aid in combat if the mage knows it is coming. Heck if a mage knows combat is coming a few good ones our mage always cast is Invulnerability, Armor of Ithan and Multiple Image on himself. Of course knowing combat is coming is always helpful but that is true for and OCC.

I truly hate and therefore discount the armor rule for mages in our games as well. To me if it cut him off from nature enough to effect his magic then an MDC being like a Sea Titan or Demigod should transform into an sdc being the minute they don heavy environmental armor since it is supposedly the magic rich Rifts Earth that make them MDC in the first place. It makes no sense and is too damn arbitrary.

[Killer Cyborg]

I agree that magic in Palladium is not geared anywhere near exclusively for combat, it can certainly aid in combat if the mage knows it is coming. Heck if a mage knows combat is coming a few good ones our mage always cast is Invulnerability, Armor of Ithan and Multiple Image on himself. Of course knowing combat is coming is always helpful but that is true for and OCC.

I truly hate and therefore discount the armor rule for mages in our games as well. To me if it cut him off from nature enough to effect his magic then an MDC being like a Sea Titan or Demigod should transform into an sdc being the minute they don heavy environmental armor since it is supposedly the magic rich Rifts Earth that make them MDC in the first place. It makes no sense and is too damn arbitrary.

Agreed.

[DocS]

Moral of the story, magic requires a disproportionate level of care for the small effects that it can do well. You can theorize a million situations where magic is useful, but in general, magic works solely when used to augment technology. Using it as a sole substitute will get your but kicked.

Agreed.
And that's how it should be.

'should be'? Where does the 'should' come from? That implies the books are somehow written as if magic is a 'supplemental tool'.

The books are written from the total other perspective of 'There are Tech groups, and Magic groups, and they tend to be at odds with each other and the tech guys don't use spells and the magic guys don't use robots'. Rifts has this 'Magic Vs Tech' Theme throughout all the sourcebooks that really is lame when 'Magic Vs Tech... Magic always loses". They took it even further with the RUE where they even prohibited mages from wearing full suits of technological armor (that is if they wanted to cast spells).

It's not just that magic is ineffective, it's that the books are written as if it's not. From CS propaganda machines to Federations of Magic, to full-color pictures of Ley-Line Walkers crackling with energy, to an 'ultimate edition' that adds MORE restrictions to spell casters (As if anyone was complaining that spellcasters were making Glitter Boys feel inadequate), the books imply again and again that 'Magic can be used as a substitute for technology'. The mere existance of the 'techno wizard' implies that somehow there is some 'divide' between magic and technology and that these guys 'bridge' that divide. The technological empires are in *FEAR* of magic, but the magic users among us would be the ones to say "Really, Mr Prosek, we have no idea how The Federation of Magic ever thought it could stand up to you.... this magic stuff... not that great".

If magic were portrayed in the books as a 'supplemental tool which expands the repertoire of the user', then the frustration wouldn't exist. But it's not portrayed that way. It's portrayed that your character is choosing a side in a fundamental debate of how humanity will do things. It's also portrayed that his access to magic will grant him extreme power which needs to be offset by large detriments. The slight expanding of the repertoire is not what earns you the enmity of the largest empire in North America, the fear and hatred of millions, makes you a tasty nubblin for any PPE draining predator/Psi Stalker (who, by the way, can sense you whenever you're within 100 feet so they know exactly who to empty their rifle at), makes you vulnerable in fights (Because you oftentimes can't even take Boxing to get that extra dodge bonus!), gives you much smaller skill choices, AND when push comes to shove your spells may only work 60% of the time because the magic save is only a 12 or higher

Something with all those limitations Has to totally kick butt, right? They wouldn't have put all those downsides on if the class wasn't really powerful to begin with... right?..... right?

If only they had a high 'Innate power level' to warrant the treatment they get.

[Nekira Sudacne]

depends, really.

One mage alone? yea, maybe. Your overlooking the power of mages in groups, working togeather. There's a reson they form guilds and brotherhoods, after all.

[Nikoli]

Also, as a caster attains new power levels, their spell power increases topping out at 16 for everyone but the TW who tops out at 15.

Unfortunately several classes get bonuses to resist spells and several options exist for upping the PE attribute.

One way around that offset is to use spells that give only a dodge for a save, but even that doesn't always work.
That's why you have to be smart about how you use magic, just like you have to be smart about how you use psionics (though to be fair, I'd prefer the save progression of psionics to that of magic) and you have to be smart about the application of technology.

Tech is great against tech, Average against psi, Weak against magic (Impervious to Energy, Deflection, Targeted Deflection, and other defensive spells...)
Psi is great against magic, Good against tech and Weak against psi.
Magic is Good against all three when properly applied.

[Kryzbyn]

One way around that offset is to use spells that give only a dodge for a save, but even that doesn't always work.

Cast Carpet of Adhesion.
Cast Wind Gust or other wind spell to knock em on their backs...
THEN cast dodge only save spells at em

Works well against those annoying hyperion juicers...

[Sureshot]

Pretty much agree with DamonS points. In my group no one will play a mage type PC in Rifts. I usually end up playing one to round out the group. What bothers me the most with magic is that someone sneezes on you and you lose your spell. Psionic characters can still manifest their abilities when hit and the npc pointing the gun at you is in no way affected in their ability to hit you with their weapons most of the time.

Add to that the saves for magic are joke imo and I can see why many consider magic at a disadvantage in the game. The whole "mages should not use only magic in the game" argument is not supported in the game fiction and the art. Heck magic are portrayed as using magic first and tech as an extreme last resort. Of course because of some of the problems with the magic system. I can see why many players using a gun to increase the firepower.

Poor ranges for spells, average damage capability and no anti-tech spells. Negate Magic is nearly useless imo. There is no magic version of Telemechanical Possesion or Telemechanical Paralysis in the game. I alway found it strange that psychics somehow can affect machines better than mages but yet somehow mages have not. Even with the events on Sot. I rather be told it's a game balance issue. It would be easier to take.

I think it amounts to so many factors against mages that takes the fun out of playing them imo. Thank god for Sub-Particle Acceleration. One of the few mage spells that is on par with technology. Also "if you don't like mages in PB play another game" is not a solution either.

[Sureshot]

Cast Carpet of Adhesion.
Cast Wind Gust or other wind spell to knock em on their backs...
THEN cast dodge only save spells at em

Works well against those annoying hyperion juicers...

A good tactic as long as they don't flick a finger at you therby distrupting any spells being cast.

[Kryzbyn]

I'd say if the first one lands...its pretty much guaranteed they wont flick your nose.

[Sureshot]

I'd say if the first one lands...its pretty much guaranteed they wont flick your nose.

Totally agree but with juicers unlike other opponents it's never a 100% guarentee.

[Kryzbyn]

As long as its not a juicer with 200ft arms...I think I'll be ok.

[RainOfSteel]

'should be'? Where does the 'should' come from? That implies the books are somehow written as if magic is a 'supplemental tool'.

Aren't they? In many ways, it seems so to me.

Magic is severely restricted when placed head to head with technology except in very rare cases such as the power of adult dragons, SIs, major demons, and gods.

[...] that really is lame when 'Magic Vs Tech... Magic always loses".

Yes.

They took it even further with the RUE where they even prohibited mages from wearing full suits of technological armor (that is if they wanted to cast spells).

You do realize that this rule was introduced along with Federation of Magic, right?

In any event, I ignore it as being against the spirit of the foundations of the game in the original RMB (IMO).

The technological empires are in *FEAR* of magic, but the magic users among us would be the ones to say "Really, Mr Prosek, we have no idea how The Federation of Magic ever thought it could stand up to you.... this magic stuff... not that great".

Magic isn't more powerful than technology in the bottom line rules, however Prosek is using magic and D-Bees as scapegoats to remain in power and hold his nation in thrall. He may hate and fear them, but I doubt he views them as more powerful than his own forces (except in limited circumstances as noted above).

The CS' position is not one of rational analysis, but one of hatemongering.

If magic were portrayed [...] It's also portrayed that his access to magic will grant him extreme power which needs to be offset by large detriments.

You've found one of the many discrepancies between the fluff text and the actual game mechanics.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'd say if the first one lands...its pretty much guaranteed they wont flick your nose.

Totally agree but with juicers unlike other opponents it's never a 100% guarentee.

actually, carpet of adhesion only takes 1 attack to cast, and is thus Completely impossible to intterupt.

[The Beast]

I agree that the new armor rules for magic completly blow. One of the top five changes that really peeved me in RUE (along with cyber-knight combat and MDC psi stalkers).

Agreed.
One of the things that drew me to Rifts in the first place was that mages could use the same armor and weapons as anybody else, instead of being stuck with robes, daggers, and darts.

Just ignore the rule. If Kevin meant for mages to be handicapped on Rifts Earth like that he would have mentioned it in the first printing somewhere. Or even better, everyone start a new thread on how stupid of a rule it is every week, and write to him via snail-mail so he'll see personally that it ranks right up there with the -10 rule.

[DocS]

Magic is like any ability. when used on its own magic has its short comings. Like a Glitterboy it has its short coming, but when used in a diverse group, i.e. a adventuring group, that group can become a devesting force.

You can not forget low level spell like Befuddle and blind. 1 attack/action to cast and now your oppontent is totaly screwed.

Blind: -5 to strike, -10 to parry and dodge.

Befuddle: -2 to strike, parry and dodge; attacks per melee cut in half.

That is for starters. If you take the time and really read some of the spell you can come up with some nasty suprises!

Did I mention that these spells have saving throws and work, at best, six times out of ten?

[Snuffy]

Although not official, in the Best of Rifter (can't remember which Rifter exactly) there was a good write up for PPE Channeling to help the Magic User cast spells quicker for combat. Might be worth looking up if you want to have a combat oriented mage.

[Vladamir Krophski]

Spell casters are great. for (I think) 10 P.P.E. I can create a renewable suit of M.D.C. Armor while you Techies are spending a fortune to repair the tattered remains of yours.

Magic is more useful than Technology if you remember the renewability of it.

[DocS]

they are low P.P.E. spell. have the mages team mates keep keep pressure off the mage and he can cast them over and over again till they work. Mages have to be played smart.

I have to say that one again, "Cast them over and over again till they work".

So are you saying that magic is... dare we say it.... unreliable? Certainly sounds like it. I know you're trying to defend magic, but when the phrase "Cast them over and over again till they work" is used... I think you make the point for me. This was my original point. 'Playing smart' means not depending on things that need to be done 'over and over again till they work', it means using thinks that work dependibly

So, in the defence of magic, the consensus is..

1) Ignore one of the biggest rules regarding magic (the Armor Rule)
2) Load the spellcaster up with techno-gadgets because magic alone isn't enough (I note that there is no one suggesting that the Rogue Scholar should learn spells, evidently, tech or skills alone is sufficient, but magic needs an assist.)
3) Ignore the rule that spells require vocal and visual components (For example "How do I know who cast the 'Call Lightning' on me?, well, since before the bolt struck there was a schmuck chanting and pointing at me, I have a pretty good idea...). Psionics don't need a chant and gesture, but spells do.
4) have people cover for you so you can cast your spells 'over and over again till they work'.
5) That magic armor spell sure is neato! Is it neato enough to replace techno-armor? Nope. Since spells require a melee action (or two) to do, and walking around unarmored and hoping that you'll always have initiative to armor up... well... that's kind of what the boys at Palladium intended (The only explaination for the rule mentioned in #1), The defenders of the 'renewable magic armor' are somehow suggesting it as a replacement for normal armor, when in reality, at best it's an enhancement of normal armor, see #1 and #2.

But you do get your PPE back with rest, so every day you can do the same, inneffective, impotent things. But don't worry, your doing them does carry a death sentence in large parts of N America (Something that the defenders really haven't mentioned as a 'downside', but it happens to be a very big one). Your skill choice and equipment sucks since Magic isn't 'Free', spellcasting characters have the downsides of poor starting equipment and poor skill choice (psionics... can be 'free', but magic is anything but.).

Have any of you spell defenders ever played by The magic rules as written!? They are UNPLAYABLE (I did this for two exasperating months, literally, the only way to make the character playable was for him to give up magic almost entirely, kind of a bad deal for a Shifter, but believe me, it was preferrable to the literal dismemberment that was occurring when he was walking around in partial armor).

If you are ignoring huge rules in order to make the spells usable, then you should be the first to admit, there is something wrong.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

many spells are x ammount of damage per level, so you might have gotten rid of call lightning, but by the time you are level 5 or 6, 5D6 or 6D6 damage that is a GURANTEED HIT if you are outside is pretty nice. And thats not even if you are near a nexus or ley line. our magic user took out a megajuicer that way. pretty badass if you ask me.

Reminds me of a player of mine who had a tenth level spell casting character. His call Lightning at a ley line Nexus = 3D6x10 M.D. (10D6/1D6x10 at 10th level, x3 from being at the nexus).

Yeesh-ness.

~ Josh

[The Galactus Kid]

...and it always hits. Noe THAT is a boom gun.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

...and it always hits. Noe THAT is a boom gun.

This seems to be the perfect time to bring up my 20th level Ancient Kumo-Mi dragon, and his call lightning.

Especially his call lightning at a ley line nexus.

Worse yet, a god's power is increased five fold (IIRC) in his temple. So the call lightning of a god who is equivalent to an eighteenth level spell caster, while in his temple...

Yeah... pwnst.

---------------------

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic...

~ Josh

[The Galactus Kid]

P.S. where is the Kumo Mi dragon?

[Dustin Fireblade]

P.S. where is the Kumo Mi dragon?

Japan page 212

[Sureshot]

It's not so much that mages are not effective it's more that the spells and game mechanics are designed in such a way that it almost forces you to play a sneaky mage or be part of a group. The PB system is the only so far that i have encountered this.

I like mages but it seems KS went out of his way to make sure players play them the way he likes them and only the way he likes them. Which is great if your playing style is similar to his. Not so great if you have a different playing style.

Armour spells are just not that great. Some have mentioned Armour of ithan which is a decent spell. Still no match for a good suit of armour. A 15th level mage will have 150 mdc suit of AofI. Not exactly very comparable to many PA and only 50 or more mdc than CS heavy body armor which is also environmentally sealed.

Call lightning is a good spell. Too bad some encounter are not always outside. Other attack spells are either sdc damage or poor damage and/or poor range. I would have no problem if it were one or the other but both. That's a lot of strikes against the mage.

Some of the mind altering spells are more effective but have an easy save to resist against. They work great if the intended target fails it's save but the optimum work here is fail the save. So many spells are easy to save against.

A few energy spells in the book don;t work against mdc materials or robts and PA. Energy distruption is a great spell. some odd reason it does not work on body armour, PA, robots and military vehicles. Paralysis: Lesser is another one. Same restriction as the other ones. Psionics inexplicably are not stopped by an mdc materials for the most part.

It really easy to say to someone "play a smart mage not a combat oriented one". Try explaining that to someone interested in playing a combat oriented mage that he can't. More often than not they play something else. At the very least not without of houserules on my part.

It's just frustrating. Mainly because psionics powers work one way. Magic works another way. Combat in the game is the only thing that is pretty well represtented imo.

[DocS]

Tech is just unreliable. i mean how many times do you miss? or does your gm have his villains just stand there and not defend themselves.

Do not laugh, I have seen this style more then once.

If your target is caught off guard, or is out of attacks that melee (something that happens.... almost every round).... he can't dodge at all, but he still gets saving throws. People run out of attacks per melee all the time, but they never run out of saving throws. Heck, if you simultaneous attack, you can create a 'dodge free' attack whenever you want one!

I've seen the 'no dodge' style too, I use that style sometimes. The only way to make battles with ARCHIE bots take reasonable amounts of time is to not have the bots dodge. It's not nearly as easy as you think, a robot that doesn't dodge is a robot that's using all it's attacks per melee to shoot at the party (I never have them simultaneous attack though, that would be wrong). The net effect is that the combats just go faster since more of the party's attacks hit, and the bad guys are attacking more, and less dodge rolls are happening.

[RainOfSteel]

Yesh...Okay. So Kevins requested I play nice and not laugh at others questions so strawmanningly.

Kevin asked you not to laugh at questions in a way that suggests that you are attacking other's arguments in a way that misrepresents what they were arguing about in a way that makes their argument look weaker and then has you attacking that weaker argument that didn't really exist?

What?

I feel Cybergen is better still [...]

I am glad you liked it. My best friend liked it.

The game was a hideous flop in general.

As you can do things with it that others using tech at present can't do!

You know, this debate has been gone over.

IIRC, there may be two or three things that magic can do that tech can't. That's it.

Someone brought up Invisablity lesser. I'd like to point out Invis, Super cant' be detected at all and puts tech at an abhorrant dissadvantage [...]

In the context of the Coalition States techies vs. the magic users of Rifts Earth North America, Invisibility Superior gets detected by Dogboys or Psi-Stalkers, so, it isn't much of concern for the CS.

Other nations that don't have that technologically created biological defense systems, yeah, they may have trouble with Invisibility Superior, until they start using beaded curtains. Invisibility Superior won't get you past that low-tech detection system.

[...] as does Impervious to Energy.

I hope that you, as a mage, have time to put this up in combat. Usually, I rely on my RMB-allowed technological armor, and I immediately begin attacking with spells or a gun, and it's usually the gun. If I'm facing an all energy weapon group, yeah, I'll toss it up instead of AoI, but usually groups in Rifts Earth don't concentrate on one weapon type because of the well-known existence of varying monster immunities.

Magic functions more usefully in utility outside of combat, but that leaves the mage of the group at a severe disadvantage.

Sure, one CoA at the right time in battle can do wonders, but smart opponents know about it and don't bunch up or do their best to keep the range open.

Armor of Ithans is resistant to most all forms of energy (1/2 damage) and as one grows will come to surpass non-regenable tech armors.

At 1st level, a Ley-Line Walker casting AoI gets 10 MDC. Meanwhile, Mr. Vagabond, at 1st level, is already wearning 70-100 MDC armor. And he can pump out firepower vastly exceeding that of the mage.

Juicers and Crazies (who aren't crazy at 1st level) completely leave both in the dust.

Call lightning is, yes, shorter in range than most all railguns, but it comes from the sky meaning you can keep hitting people and not let others know where you comming from and it has a better hit ratio than most tech!

6th level spells are not available at 1st level, and Call Lightning isn't going to be easy to come by unless the mage has a lot of money and manage's to survive combat with his 10 MDC capacity at first level, 20 MDC capacity at second level, 30 MDC capacity at third level (while facing ever greater threats and having tech-equipped buddies running around with 70-100 MDC armor).

True, if the enemys know this spells range limit they will figure out your in a 300ft radius of them, unless you've casted mystic portal, in which case you may be hundreds of feet further away.

Mystic Portal is also not always available.

Next, If you put a level 5 mage in a ring without armor or weapons to face off against a level 80! jucier w/o armor or weapons...the mage will get off his Armor spell and be free to cast other spells moderatly interuption free. He'll win!

What? The Juicer will go first in the initiative order. The mage won't have a spell up, and chances are considerably in favor of an 80th (?!) level Juicer hitting and killing the mage with an MDC weapon.

"WHY" you ask? Because mages don't need to pack weapons of armor, they have it always with them where as techis always need to lugg it around.

Right, meaning that the mage is killed in surprise situations.

Mages can grab PPE from others with easy. If in a city, they can secretly draw mana from the throngs of people and refill up quick as all H.E. double Hockey Styx!

In the CS, this will alert dogboys (IMO, anyway) post-haste.

In magic cities (and technically even in CS cities), you have no idea who is, and isn't, a practitioner of magic.

I hope the mage doesn't concentrate on the wrong target.

Mages can use tech, Tech user (Juicers, headhunters, partel & full conv borgs, PA-pilots) can not do the reverse! In this, mages have a leg up on all of them.

By canon, yes, mages can uses guns, but not armor. (Even though I do allow the use of armor to mages, it isn't canon anymore.)

No! Starting out a mage is not likely better than a Jucier, but he/she/it will be in time, which is something Juicers don't have allot of!

I've never seen a Juicer PC die of burn-out in an actual game.

But a juicer ain't squat against a SAMAS or Glitter Boy or most supernats for that matter! Not unless it's a smart juicer!

The quality of the crate matters little. Success depends upon who sits in it. ~ Baron Manfred von Richtofen

Mages are for smart players...Not Hacken Slashers who only cast fire ball! Then yes they suck Royal monkey @#$%!

You just contradicted your entire argument.

But that's called bad playing and not unfair.

So, you're saying that hack-n-slash players are bad, and that the unfairness that mages are weak is their own fault for being bad? (Or please clarify.)

Question; Throw Stones Vs. TX Partical Pistol...TX wins...Now tell us how much it will cost you to recharge that puppy? 1000$
Mage...Some PPE (AKA-Free).

I charge my gun off the group's nuclear-powered ATV, or nuclear powered bot, or battery recharger, or micro-fusion power plant. Cost in all cases = 0 Credits.

Now, Take two. Mage with IMP. to Energy & Throw stones [...]

You do realize that Throwing Stones isn't in RUE anymore?

If someone is new to the game, they won't have BoM.

Impervious to Energy is 6th level and won't always be available, certainly not to start.

[...] Vs. Dead Boy in Heavy armor and TX Partical Pistol+10 clips...Mage wins, CS is DeadBoy is DEAD!

I think not. A straight Dead Boy will have 4 HTH attacks, and a straight Ley Line Walker will have 2 HTH attacks.

The Dead Boy's rifle or pistol out-ranges Throwing Stones completely, and so may well never be hit by the mage.

The mage loses a starting attack putting up a defense.

Impervious to Energy isn't available at 1st level, and the Dead Boy, seeing a mage, will activate his CP-50's grenade launcher using a micro-fusion grenade.

Avg. Dam.: 21 MDC.

Even should ItE be up, it won't help. If the mage has 10 MDC of AoI up, that won't help, either.

Even at 2nd level, the mage's AoI may well not be enough.

Throw stones aimed at gun=no gun! and one hurting solder!.

Throwing stones isn't going to demolish the Dead Boy's rifle in just a couple of melees (not with only 2 HTH attacks/melee), and the Dead Boy has a pistol backup, anyway.

Meanwhile, as the mage is trying to down the Dead Boy's weapons, the Dead Boy is peppering the mage with 2 attacks/melee, while holding two back for dodges.

The mage will have to use up an attack just to cast a spell, and more for Throwing stone's repeated uses. In other words, the mage will have no bonus to dodge. This generally equals death.

Are the spells costly in time & mana to use...Heck Yes! That's why, like power armor, you put in it on BEFORE you get into combat!

That simply isn't always possible.

[RainOfSteel]

Here is another trick. the mage memorizes what each bots cockpit looks like and then he uses teleport: lesser (15 P.P.E and two attack actions) to send a few fusion blocks in side from cover.

That most certainly does not work canonically (BoM p.21), although you can allow it in your game.

[RainOfSteel]

Heck, if you simultaneous attack, you can create a 'dodge free' attack whenever you want one!

Are you saying you allow Simultaneous attacks for ranged combat? (Our discussion has largely been ranged combat so far.)

Frankly, I don't allow them at all (house rule), but I was just wondering.

[RainOfSteel]

Not strictlly canon, but here is KS's word on simo attacks in ranged combat.

Ah, I see.

Well, fortunately it does not affect my personal games (or rather, it hasn't affected the last several).

[RainOfSteel]

Kevin asked you not to laugh at questions in a way that suggests that you are attacking other's arguments in a way that misrepresents what they were arguing about in a way that makes their argument look weaker and then has you attacking that weaker argument that didn't really exist?

HUH?
I have only one word fer you, Commas!
Reading that was exasperating, Take a breather there partner .

You're going to comment on my comma usage when you aren't using apostrophes in some cases, and are using double-quotes for apstrophes in non-possessive cases, and aren't using a spellchecker, as well?

Here goes. Magic KILLS tech! Tech is good, tech is great even. I love tech and feel Cyberpunk was one of the best games ever put out. I feel Cybergen is better still and (GM"s willing) play one in Rifts when ever I can...But tech is hurtting for when up against magic.

[...] Invisablity [...] dissadvantage [...] Armor of Ithans [...] comming [...] etc.

I guess I'll start off by asking you how you know what KS wrote to me in a personal memmo, considering he (nor I) never post said info to the public!

I don't, and nothing I said indicated I did.

I was asking for clarification by pointing out what it was you had appeared to say. Strawman is a logical fallacy of a specific definition, and you used the word "strawmanningly" in a context where it did not appear to fit.

ANSWER; You don't!

See above.

[The Beast]

This argument is hurting my eyes, and getting hard to keep track of who said what.

You can't argue against the Mages Can't Wear Armor Rule by saying it's not in the RMB and then ignore the old Timmy Has a Bag Of Rocks Rule because they changed the way the spells work in RUE.

[Killer Cyborg]

So, in the defence of magic, the consensus is..

1) Ignore one of the biggest rules regarding magic (the Armor Rule)

It's "big" only in the sense that it causes a lot of inconvenience.
It's not an important part of Palladium's magic system, though. It was an afterthought.

2) Load the spellcaster up with techno-gadgets because magic alone isn't enough (I note that there is no one suggesting that the Rogue Scholar should learn spells, evidently, tech or skills alone is sufficient, but magic needs an assist.)[/quote

If they could learn spells, then why NOT learn them?

3) Ignore the rule that spells require vocal and visual components (For example "How do I know who cast the 'Call Lightning' on me?, well, since before the bolt struck there was a schmuck chanting and pointing at me, I have a pretty good idea...). Psionics don't need a chant and gesture, but spells do.
4) have people cover for you so you can cast your spells 'over and over again till they work'.

If you take into account the fact that you're wearing armor, you should generally get your spell to work right the first time.
Although it may not be quite as powerful as if you were unarmored.
No need for repeat casting unless you are stupid or unlucky or both.

5) That magic armor spell sure is neato! Is it neato enough to replace techno-armor? Nope.

And it shouldn't be.
Magic armor spells stack with normal armor, so mages get the best of both worlds. Even using the Mage-Armor rule, they're often better off than tech users, simply because they have more options.

But you do get your PPE back with rest, so every day you can do the same, inneffective, impotent things.

Only if you play your mage as ineffective and impotent.
In general, there's no huge problem with them.

Have any of you spell defenders ever played by The magic rules as written!? They are UNPLAYABLE (I did this for two exasperating months, literally, the only way to make the character playable was for him to give up magic almost entirely, kind of a bad deal for a Shifter, but believe me, it was preferrable to the literal dismemberment that was occurring when he was walking around in partial armor).

If you are ignoring huge rules in order to make the spells usable, then you should be the first to admit, there is something wrong.

I never have, but I don't see how the rules make mages unplayable, unless you are working on the absurd assumption that mages must use magic all the time, for everything that they do.

[Killer Cyborg]

:frust: This argument is hurting my eyes, and getting hard to keep track of who said what.

You can't argue against the Mages Can't Wear Armor Rule by saying it's not in the RMB and then ignore the old Timmy Has a Bag Of Rocks Rule because they changed the way the spells work in RUE.

Sure you can.

The Bag of Rocks scenario wasn't in the main book either.
That came later, as a result of the introduction of the Two Attacks For Living.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've posted this before, but here it is again:

IF you really want mages to get along without technology, here's the house rule for you:

In addition to the damage of spells being increased by the super-charged ley lines of Rifts Earth, so is the Duration.
For example, instead of AoI lasting 10 minutes per level, it lasts 100 minutes per level.
At higher levels, you can cast it in the morning and have it last all day.

[RainOfSteel]

You can't argue against the Mages Can't Wear Armor Rule by saying it's not in the RMB [...]

I did not say that at all.

I said I found that rule to be against the entire spirit of known magi capabilities as established by the RMB.

There is quite a difference there.

I do not assert that my allowing mages to wear any type of armor at all is canon.

You should know that I never knew about the FoM rule until after coming to FotM, I think I found out sometime in 2005.

[Killer Cyborg]

I am now all kinda of curious...What means by which have all (if any of you) come by to circumvent the armor rule?..short of just throwing it out!

The reason I ask is for people like DamonS & RainOfSteel who may wish to still use the rule, but would like creative (Game Legal) alternatives to getting around it without outright breaking it....Remember, these are Mages..Some of the smartest birds out there...surly there are some good ideas to help these two and others out?

1. New Item: The TW Casting Wand
TW items aren't restricted by armor.
This particular TW device allows the caster to cast any spell he knows through the device instead of casting it normally.
This would eliminate any problems from armor.
Also comes as a Staff.

2. Just wear non-tech armor. Chitin from Fury Beetles or mutant insects. Wood armor that has been hit with an Ironwood spell. Leather of Iron from PFRPG. Millenium Tree leaves. Dragonskin. Dinosaur hide. The new Linewalker armor.

3. Be a MDC creature.

4. Don't cast spells unless you need to.

5. Armor of Ithan or Invincible Armor or whatever + Permanence Ward.

[The Beast]

I am now all kinda of curious...What means by which have all (if any of you) come by to circumvent the armor rule?..short of just throwing it out!

Sorry, I can't help. I straight ignore the rule.

The Bag of Rocks scenario wasn't in the main book either.
That came later, as a result of the introduction of the Two Attacks For Living.

You sure it wasn't from when PB changed the casting round from the first to the second round? The 2 APR rule was always present from when I started playing.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Bag of Rocks scenario wasn't in the main book either.
That came later, as a result of the introduction of the Two Attacks For Living.

You sure it wasn't from when PB changed the casting round from the first to the second round? The 2 APR rule was always present from when I started playing.

The Two Attacks For Living came in sometime around the time Atlantis was released. Before that rule, an average low-level fighter-type could make two attacks in 15 seconds, and a mage could get off two spells in 15 seconds (or take two attacks).
With the introduction of the TAFL, suddenly a standard melee attack only took 3.75 seconds or so. Suddenly, instead of a mage having 2 attacks per melee or 2 spells per melee, a mage had 4 attacks per melee or two spells per melee. Suddenly a spell took two attacks to cast.
That brought up the question of when the spell went off, and what happens if the mage is attacked while in the middle of casting his spell (between the attack that he begins casting and the attack that he finishes casting).
This was never really an issue before, since it only took mages one attack to cast spells.
And that's where the kid with the bag of rocks comes in.

[Killer Cyborg]

I am now all kinda of curious...What means by which have all (if any of you) come by to circumvent the armor rule?..short of just throwing it out!

I have created several suits of armor that do not use metal. M.D.C. leather, hide, ceramic, plastic and carbon fiber. I have even created a Chipwell power armor out of plastic.

The current incarnation of the rule is that no artificial materials can be used in the armor (unless the armor covers less than 1/3 of the body).
Plastics, ceramics, and high-tech fibers all impare mages just like metal does.

[dark brandon]

Magic is like any ability. when used on its own magic has its short comings. Like a Glitterboy it has its short coming, but when used in a diverse group, i.e. a adventuring group, that group can become a devesting force.

You can not forget low level spell like Befuddle and blind. 1 attack/action to cast and now your oppontent is totaly screwed.

Blind: -5 to strike, -10 to parry and dodge.

Befuddle: -2 to strike, parry and dodge; attacks per melee cut in half.

That is for starters. If you take the time and really read some of the spell you can come up with some nasty suprises!

Did I mention that these spells have saving throws and work, at best, six times out of ten?

Laser rifle. 5D6 damage. Average is 15 MDC a shot. Average armor is around 70 or so MDC. You'll need about 5 shots to take armor out, and you only have a 5% chance to increase the affect (Nat 20).

Is 6 out of 10 times not enough in compared to a laser rifle? A mage is more likley to drop an enemie before a tech person.

Magic net. They need a 16 to dodge, and should they fail, they are out of combat entirely unless they are psionic. 7 PPE.

Fear. Save 16. A failed save means they fall to HF.

Carpet of adhesion. Even a save means they are still stuck for melee rounds.

Call Lightning. No dodge, no save.

Giant spell. No save, and it turns your mage into an MDC powerhouse on par of robots and power armor.

Invisibility. No save. Most EBA doesn't have thermals, so inv. simple will suffice until you can get inv. sup. or you save in. sup. until you are facing an enemie. Did I mention that inv. sup. cannot be detected in any way by tec?

Armor of Ithan. No save. 10 extra MDC + armor per level.\

Now, look at the armor penalties for wearing full EBA armor. None of them are really that drastic. You have a decreased time, increased PPE, decreased range and a few others. It's not like you're losing the spell.

And interupting your spell casting? Most of the spells I've mention take 1 action to cast.

About all magic lacks is straight damage, but like I said there are a plethora of ways to win a combat and no one ever actually dieing.

[Thinyser]

5. Armor of Ithan or Invincible Armor or whatever + Permanence Ward.

Ok assuming you have access to a diabolist that can/will do that and the mage is willing to have it sewn on to his/her skin (which is the only way a permanence ward can be afixed to a being) how as a GM would you work this?... Use AoI as the spell.

Does it pop back up immediatly, at full strenght, after it's MDC is depleated?

Does it regenerate at a preset pace back to its full potential?

Does it stay unuseable for a certain time after its depleated but then once the time has passed can be reactivated at full? How long is the wait?

Or would you do something else?

EDIT and though "be an MDC creature" covers it I guess, I would throw in Biowizardy MDC transformation as an option (very expensive option but an option none the less)