Interesting question: Crusifying Vampires

[Nekira Sudacne]

Now, we all know that a Cross will keep a vampire at bay, and even damage them if touched.

but what happens if you manage to incapasitate a vampire (yes, this includes preventing them from turning into mist), then nail them to a cross Roman-style?

would it be enough to destroy them entirely? or would they be damned to take damage constantly, but sinse it's not water, sunlight, or decapitation, simply continual heal and hurt for all eternity (well, or at least until someone takes them down)

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm going for option B. Like you say, only holy water and sunlight can kill 'em.

Wouldn't that drive a vampire insane? No blood to feed on and bound to the cursed cross... I'd go bat guano insane within a week if I was a vampire subjected to that!

maybe it would!

that's what this topic is to discuss.

[Killer Cyborg]

Now, we all know that a Cross will keep a vampire at bay, and even damage them if touched.

but what happens if you manage to incapasitate a vampire (yes, this includes preventing them from turning into mist), then nail them to a cross Roman-style?

would it be enough to destroy them entirely? or would they be damned to take damage constantly, but sinse it's not water, sunlight, or decapitation, simply continual heal and hurt for all eternity (well, or at least until someone takes them down)

Couldn't destroy them permanently, but they sure as heck wouldn't like it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Now, we all know that a Cross will keep a vampire at bay, and even damage them if touched.

but what happens if you manage to incapasitate a vampire (yes, this includes preventing them from turning into mist), then nail them to a cross Roman-style?

would it be enough to destroy them entirely? or would they be damned to take damage constantly, but sinse it's not water, sunlight, or decapitation, simply continual heal and hurt for all eternity (well, or at least until someone takes them down)

Couldn't destroy them permanently, but they sure as heck wouldn't like it.

I can see some more fanatic Fire and Brimestone preachers using this meathod on any vampires they find in the new west if they can pull it off.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

You have to ask yourself, what would the point be? Does psychological warfare work on vampires? Does torture? I agree I doubt it'd kill one but what's preventing them from just breaking free?

More than likely the constant irritability from the wood and/or silver pinning them to the cross, as well as the constant pain of being stuck to a cross...these factors would likely be far to painful and thus too distracting for the Vamp to even break free.

...especially if you drape multiple cross necklaces over the poor sucker's (pun unintended) neck.

~ Josh

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

I really like this idea, but what happens when the sun comes up? The vamp would only suffer for a few hours, and then disintegrate come dawn.

Not if you crucify him or her inside, underground or in the Arctic Circle (during the winter).

~ Josh

[Killer Cyborg]

I really like this idea, but what happens when the sun comes up? The vamp would only suffer for a few hours, and then disintegrate come dawn.

Not if you crucify him or her inside, underground or in the Arctic Circle (during the winter).

~ Josh

Or in a cave or building.
If you want to wimp out on a trip to the Arctic Circle in wintertime.

[Killer Cyborg]

Now, we all know that a Cross will keep a vampire at bay, and even damage them if touched.

but what happens if you manage to incapasitate a vampire (yes, this includes preventing them from turning into mist), then nail them to a cross Roman-style?

would it be enough to destroy them entirely? or would they be damned to take damage constantly, but sinse it's not water, sunlight, or decapitation, simply continual heal and hurt for all eternity (well, or at least until someone takes them down)

Couldn't destroy them permanently, but they sure as heck wouldn't like it.

I can see some more fanatic Fire and Brimestone preachers using this meathod on any vampires they find in the new west if they can pull it off.

Agreed.
I like the idea.
Crucify them on Saturday night, let the sun finish them off in time for the Sunday service.
Or keep them crucified inside somewhere on display, as some sort of object lesson.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

I really like this idea, but what happens when the sun comes up? The vamp would only suffer for a few hours, and then disintegrate come dawn.

Not if you crucify him or her inside, underground or in the Arctic Circle (during the winter).

~ Josh

Or in a cave or building.
If you want to wimp out on a trip to the Arctic Circle in wintertime.

I already covered buildings ("inside"), half covered caves ("underground").

See bolded parts.

~ Josh

[BookWyrm]

I would go for option B.

[Killer Cyborg]

I really like this idea, but what happens when the sun comes up? The vamp would only suffer for a few hours, and then disintegrate come dawn.

Not if you crucify him or her inside, underground or in the Arctic Circle (during the winter).

~ Josh

Or in a cave or building.
If you want to wimp out on a trip to the Arctic Circle in wintertime.

I already covered buildings ("inside"), half covered caves ("underground").

See bolded parts.

~ Josh

Somehow I misread it as "and" not "or".
My bad.
Your good.

[Nekira Sudacne]

You have to ask yourself, what would the point be? Does psychological warfare work on vampires? Does torture? I agree I doubt it'd kill one but what's preventing them from just breaking free?

why wouldn't it? they're sentiant and mostly human emotions and preceptions.

[dark brandon]

They wou.ld turn to mist and escape.

[Killer Cyborg]

They wou.ld turn to mist and escape.

Quiet, you.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

They wou.ld turn to mist and escape.

Don't lower level Vampires lack that ability?



~ Josh

[Borast]

Would the cross destroy the Vamp permanently?

No.

However...how would you incapacitate a vampire badly enough to actually nail them to a cross?

In anycase - even if you were to prevent them from morphing, they could still tear themselves off the cross. In fact, the spasms from being in contact with the cross would probably do precicely that!

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

they could still tear themselves off the cross. In fact, the spasms from being in contact with the cross would probably do precicely that!

That depends whether or not you tie the arms to the cross in addition to nailing them.

Most Hollywood and Pop Culture depictions of crucifixion usually neglect to include that part.


It also depends on how much one thinks a Vampire would spasm. (I think they would spasm like crazy).


~ Josh

[newtypechris]

Well, what about ye-olde staking method for keeping them from disintegrating during the day?

Sure, they're reduced to a nailed bunch of bones, but if you keep them in place (Carpet of adhesion, duct tape, wiring...) you could just unsteak them after sundown, and observe the howling and eternal tourment of the bloodsuckers.

The big problem is the enevitability that a buddy of his is going to super-hypnotize a common squishie to help detach him.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

why wouldn't it? they're sentiant and mostly human emotions and preceptions.

Well you'd figure it would and the torture would undoubtedly be effective. But one would think you'd need to pull some pretty outrageous stunts to get a bunch of very powerful anything to sit up and pay attention. If you left out a dozen vampires staked to crosses they might notice. But one at a time seems like it wouldn't phase them at all.

One by one would definitely enrage them, as it would be an assualt on their pride.

"Lowly mortals dare to make a spectacle of our brethren in such away, they should know their place!"

And an angered opponent usually doesn't think very clearly.

~ Josh

[Borast]

they could still tear themselves off the cross. In fact, the spasms from being in contact with the cross would probably do precicely that!

That depends whether or not you tie the arms to the cross in addition to nailing them.

Most Hollywood and Pop Culture depictions of crucifixion usually neglect to include that part.


It also depends on how much one thinks a Vampire would spasm. (I think they would spasm like crazy).


~ Josh

Well, I didn't realise that they ALSO tied the victim to the cross as well.

I knew that they EITHER nailed the person to the cross OR tied them, but didn't know they did both.

[KLM]

It better be a cross treated by an Ironwood spell, and such.
Plus there is the issue of turning to mist...

For my part, I treat vampires (at least master and secondary
ones) very similar to the White Wolf's Cainites.
I also happen to play (rarely) in a local LARP...

So pulling this stunt on vampires, where the masters are
over 50 years, the retaliation would be really nasty.
But that is just my two silver pennies.

Adios
KLM

[Nekira Sudacne]

They wou.ld turn to mist and escape.

hello, didn't you read where I said this senario assumes you found a way to stop them?

[Nekira Sudacne]

It better be a cross treated by an Ironwood spell, and such.
Plus there is the issue of turning to mist...

acutally I was just thinking using heavy MD materials. there's no restrions on WHAT the cross has to be made of....

For my part, I treat vampires (at least master and secondary
ones) very similar to the White Wolf's Cainites.
I also happen to play (rarely) in a local LARP...

So pulling this stunt on vampires, where the masters are
over 50 years, the retaliation would be really nasty.
But that is just my two silver pennies.

Adios
KLM

a 50 year old palladium vampire is luckey to be level three...

they have the slowest level progression in the game.

[Nekira Sudacne]

why wouldn't it? they're sentiant and mostly human emotions and preceptions.

Well you'd figure it would and the torture would undoubtedly be effective. But one would think you'd need to pull some pretty outrageous stunts to get a bunch of very powerful anything to sit up and pay attention. If you left out a dozen vampires staked to crosses they might notice. But one at a time seems like it wouldn't phase them at all.

you'd be surprised how little it can take. dragons are as easy to tick off as they are powerful.

[SoulofThunder]

this scenario is based on keepin it from turning to mist. how are you going to prevent that from happening? or any shapechanging go that matter. then theres the matter of the vampires having supernatural strength , how are you (and why would you) gonna get the thing on the cross in the first place?

seems like a time consuming ( and grossy inefficient) way to incapacitate a vamp for a short period of time.

[Nekira Sudacne]

this scenario is based on keepin it from turning to mist. how are you going to prevent that from happening? or any shapechanging go that matter. then theres the matter of the vampires having supernatural strength , how are you (and why would you) gonna get the thing on the cross in the first place?

seems like a time consuming ( and grossy inefficient) way to incapacitate a vamp for a short period of time.

I think the magical chains from Atlantis would work that are designed to keep supernatural beings in place.

[KLM]

For my part, I treat vampires (at least master and secondary
ones) very similar to the White Wolf's Cainites.
I also happen to play (rarely) in a local LARP...

So pulling this stunt on vampires, where the masters are
over 50 years, the retaliation would be really nasty.
But that is just my two silver pennies.

Adios
KLM

a 50 year old palladium vampire is luckey to be level three...

they have the slowest level progression in the game.

Well, especially in Rifts, I do not judge someone's (or something's)
"lethality factor" from levels. More like intellect (and of course
raw hitting/standing power)...

A master vampire is intelligent (check, even the secondary ones have
a slightly better than average intellect, and an outstanding MA and ME,
so they are not easily tricked or act in blind rage, but rather in cold
blood - after are, they are immortal, and derive as much pleasure
killing the offender's grandchildren, as the offender himself), and
has raw power (plenty, check).

Besides, if it goes to hunt just once per week, it is awarded like
25 XP per week, 52 weeks per year, for 50 years it is...65.000 XP.
(25 XP for dubduing/killing a minor menace - after all, every
human can have a cross and a stake) - so this is a level 5
"leech"... Plus of course there is the possibility
of a vampire intelligence which chooses a powerfull necromancer
or shifter for its "champion" (or just enlist such personell), so this
is in addition.
Ouch.

But still... An intelligent, powerfull foe.

Adios
KLM

[Killer Cyborg]

this scenario is based on keepin it from turning to mist. how are you going to prevent that from happening? or any shapechanging go that matter. then theres the matter of the vampires having supernatural strength , how are you (and why would you) gonna get the thing on the cross in the first place?

seems like a time consuming ( and grossy inefficient) way to incapacitate a vamp for a short period of time.

I think the magical chains from Atlantis would work that are designed to keep supernatural beings in place.

Some magic circles might also do the trick, or maybe the right diabolist wards.

[cornholioprime]

You have to ask yourself, what would the point be? Does psychological warfare work on vampires? Does torture? I agree I doubt it'd kill one but what's preventing them from just breaking free?

More than likely the constant irritability from the wood and/or silver pinning them to the cross, as well as the constant pain of being stuck to a cross...these factors would likely be far to painful and thus too distracting for the Vamp to even break free.

...especially if you drape multiple cross necklaces over the poor sucker's (pun unintended) neck.

~ Josh

I'm pretty sure that Palladium Canon strongly infers that you have to HOLD the Cross in order for it to be effective.

As I point out repeatedly, Vampires make their lairs in Graveyards all the time (most notably in Ciudad Juarez) without apparent ill efect.

There's even a few Armors in the Rifts Books that have Crosses emblazoned/built into them (one of the most recent is in Rifts: Merc Ops)...and they only hold Vamps at bay; they aren't even described as being able to hurt the Vampire if they, themselves, touch said Cross (and no one is brandishing it at the time).

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm pretty sure that Palladium Canon strongly infers that you have to HOLD the Cross in order for it to be effective.

Not really.
(VK 27-29)
"The symbol and even the shadow of the crucifix (t shaped cross) will cause the vampire to recoil in apparent fear and pain."
"A cross held firmly in hand can be used to force a vampire away. Wearing it around the neck protects one from the vampire's bite."

The touch of a crucifix inflicts 2d6 HP, same as the shadow of a small cross. A large shadow that covers half the body inflicts 1d4x10 HP per melee round, so it makes sense that the touch of a large cross would inflict the same damage.

As I point out repeatedly, Vampires make their lairs in Graveyards all the time (most notably in Ciudad Juarez) without apparent ill efect.

Not all graves and not all graveyards have crosses, and even if they do then the vamps can just avoid touching the crosses (and stay out of their shadow on moonlit nights).
And there's nothing stopping them from smashing those crosses by hurling rocks.

There's even a few Armors in the Rifts Books that have Crosses emblazoned/built into them (one of the most recent is in Rifts: Merc Ops)...and they only hold Vamps at bay; they aren't even described as being able to hurt the Vampire if they, themselves, touch said Cross (and no one is brandishing it at the time).

Actually, crosses painted on armor don't even keep vampires at bay. Wild Vampires get a combat penalty, but it's not a big one.
But that's not the same as an actual cross; it's a painted cross. A picture of a cross.
Strap an actual cross on the armor and it will have a greater effect, just like wearing a crucifix aroung the neck will prevent a vampire from biting you (VK 28).

Oh, and if a vampire is touched by a cross it has to make a save against Horror Factor of 18 or it's immobilized for that melee round. That would keep them from misting away, at least until they made their save.
Find some way to curse it or something to drop it's save vs. Horror, and it would be stuck there forever.

[Thinyser]

They wou.ld turn to mist and escape.

hello, didn't you read where I said this senario assumes you found a way to stop them?

And what method do you know of, other than staking the heart, that makes it so they cannot mist?

I know of none

[Nekira Sudacne]

They wou.ld turn to mist and escape.

hello, didn't you read where I said this senario assumes you found a way to stop them?

And what method do you know of, other than staking the heart, that makes it so they cannot mist?

I know of none

the magical shackes in splynn market.

[Thinyser]

They wou.ld turn to mist and escape.

hello, didn't you read where I said this senario assumes you found a way to stop them?

And what method do you know of, other than staking the heart, that makes it so they cannot mist?

I know of none

the magical shackes in splynn market.

Is this what you mean or is their another magical shackles that i dont know of. Please note that these do not stop any sort of shape changing or transformation to mist, so would be uneffective on vampires.

Techno-Wizard Shackles, a set of conventional shackles which have been augmented by a Techno-Wizard to be stronger and more difficult to
escape.
Special Abilities: Tough to pick or escape from. All such
attempts suffer from a penalty of -35% and the shackles are
resistant to the magic spell, Escape. Against this spell, the TW
Shackles get an attempt to save vs magic with the standard
saving throw of 12 or higher.

[Nekira Sudacne]

They wou.ld turn to mist and escape.

hello, didn't you read where I said this senario assumes you found a way to stop them?

And what method do you know of, other than staking the heart, that makes it so they cannot mist?

I know of none

the magical shackes in splynn market.

Is this what you mean or is their another magical shackles that i dont know of. Please note that these do not stop any sort of shape changing or transformation to mist, so would be uneffective on vampires.

Techno-Wizard Shackles, a set of conventional shackles which have been augmented by a Techno-Wizard to be stronger and more difficult to
escape.
Special Abilities: Tough to pick or escape from. All such
attempts suffer from a penalty of -35% and the shackles are
resistant to the magic spell, Escape. Against this spell, the TW
Shackles get an attempt to save vs magic with the standard
saving throw of 12 or higher.

no, it was soemthing else. lemme find my damn atlantis books and I'll get back to you, they're not in the stack where they belong...

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Magic Restraints from the last entry on page 259 of the Palladium main book.

[Thinyser]

Magic Restraints from the last entry on page 259 of the Palladium main book.

Kool...I never noticed that before.


BTW "PFRPG main book" is what most people here call it rather than "Palladium main book" just for a heads up. Or as noted in the link PF2 for Palladium Fantasy 2nd edition

[url=http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?t=35677&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=]Abbreviations used on this forum
[/url]

[Thinyser]

Hmm... after again reading the metamorphasis of vampires it is more of a natural metamorphesis/transformation than magical. The spell in PFRPG states that it works on spells and magical transformation. Vampires transformation, being a natural ability, is not subject to the restraint, in the strictest interpretation.

That said I would allow a vampire to be bound by that device since it is very rare and damn expensive (40,000 gold is a shedload in PFRPG).

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hmm... after again reading the metamorphasis of vampires it is more of a natural metamorphesis/transformation than magical. The spell in PFRPG states that it works on spells and magical transformation. Vampires transformation, being a natural ability, is not subject to the restraint, in the strictest interpretation.

That said I would allow a vampire to be bound by that device since it is very rare and damn expensive (40,000 gold is a shedload in PFRPG).

how can it be a natural ability of a supernatural being, considering the body is that of a human?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Magic Restraints from the last entry on page 259 of the Palladium main book.

And thank you bidet, that is just what I was looking for, I just thought it was in the wrong place

[Thinyser]

Hmm... after again reading the metamorphasis of vampires it is more of a natural metamorphesis/transformation than magical. The spell in PFRPG states that it works on spells and magical transformation. Vampires transformation, being a natural ability, is not subject to the restraint, in the strictest interpretation.

That said I would allow a vampire to be bound by that device since it is very rare and damn expensive (40,000 gold is a shedload in PFRPG).

how can it be a natural ability of a supernatural being, considering the body is that of a human?

its an inharent ability that differs greatly from any other known magical transformation. It seems to me that its a non-magical transformation or at the minimum one that doesn't conform to how magic works. Thus by strictest interpretaion of the wording of the schackles they would not effect it. I would however rule it otherwise.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hmm... after again reading the metamorphasis of vampires it is more of a natural metamorphesis/transformation than magical. The spell in PFRPG states that it works on spells and magical transformation. Vampires transformation, being a natural ability, is not subject to the restraint, in the strictest interpretation.

That said I would allow a vampire to be bound by that device since it is very rare and damn expensive (40,000 gold is a shedload in PFRPG).

how can it be a natural ability of a supernatural being, considering the body is that of a human?

its an inharent ability that differs greatly from any other known magical transformation. It seems to me that its a non-magical transformation or at the minimum one that doesn't conform to how magic works. Thus by strictest interpretaion of the wording of the schackles they would not effect it. I would however rule it otherwise.

it's an inherent MAGICAL ability. chiang-ku dragons also have the power to turn into mist. but there's nothing natural about it. if it was natural, any human could already do it.

sinse it's only gained at vamparisem, it's supernatural.

in fact, the very DEFINITION of a supernatural being is a being with inherent magical powers.

your just confusing "inherent" with "natural"

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Magic Restraints from the last entry on page 259 of the Palladium main book.

And thank you bidet, that is just what I was looking for, I just thought it was in the wrong place

Happy to help and glad that I found them when I did, because I'd already spent about 10 minutes looking through the Atlantis and Splynn books. I knew I'd seen them somewhere. Once I got it in my head to find them, I would have been digging through books for god knows how long...

Third time's the charm, though.

[Thinyser]

Hmm... after again reading the metamorphasis of vampires it is more of a natural metamorphesis/transformation than magical. The spell in PFRPG states that it works on spells and magical transformation. Vampires transformation, being a natural ability, is not subject to the restraint, in the strictest interpretation.

That said I would allow a vampire to be bound by that device since it is very rare and damn expensive (40,000 gold is a shedload in PFRPG).

how can it be a natural ability of a supernatural being, considering the body is that of a human?

its an inharent ability that differs greatly from any other known magical transformation. It seems to me that its a non-magical transformation or at the minimum one that doesn't conform to how magic works. Thus by strictest interpretaion of the wording of the schackles they would not effect it. I would however rule it otherwise.

it's an inherent MAGICAL ability. chiang-ku dragons also have the power to turn into mist. but there's nothing natural about it. if it was natural, any human could already do it.

sinse it's only gained at vamparisem, it's supernatural.

in fact, the very DEFINITION of a supernatural being is a being with inherent magical powers.

your just confusing "inherent" with "natural"

Its states that the ability of dragons to shapechange is "natural" right in the Chiang Ku description.

Also the ability of vampires is much different as they can take thier clothes and small possession with them in thier transformations. NO other form of natural or magical or supernatural transformation allows this.

It may be magical or supernatural but it does NOT conform to how other (magical or natural or supernatural) transformations work. As such I think that by the strictest interpretaion of the magical restraints its beyond the bounds of what they would constrain.

As I said though its so damn hard to restrain a vampire that I would allow these to do it because of their rareity and thier expense.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hmm... after again reading the metamorphasis of vampires it is more of a natural metamorphesis/transformation than magical. The spell in PFRPG states that it works on spells and magical transformation. Vampires transformation, being a natural ability, is not subject to the restraint, in the strictest interpretation.

That said I would allow a vampire to be bound by that device since it is very rare and damn expensive (40,000 gold is a shedload in PFRPG).

how can it be a natural ability of a supernatural being, considering the body is that of a human?

its an inharent ability that differs greatly from any other known magical transformation. It seems to me that its a non-magical transformation or at the minimum one that doesn't conform to how magic works. Thus by strictest interpretaion of the wording of the schackles they would not effect it. I would however rule it otherwise.

it's an inherent MAGICAL ability. chiang-ku dragons also have the power to turn into mist. but there's nothing natural about it. if it was natural, any human could already do it.

sinse it's only gained at vamparisem, it's supernatural.

in fact, the very DEFINITION of a supernatural being is a being with inherent magical powers.

your just confusing "inherent" with "natural"

Its states that the ability of dragons to shapechange is "natural" right in the Chiang Ku description.

Also the ability of vampires is much different as they can take thier clothes and small possession with them in thier transformations. NO other form of natural or magical or supernatural transformation allows this.

that's a strong argument for my side acutally.

'k, let me put it this way.

does turning yourself and your cloths into actual water vapor, retaining your freewill, able to move as you will, and reform your body, including the parts that are NOT water, a sceitific, natural, plasuble thing to do?

if you can, it's natural.

if you can't...it's supernautral.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Hmm... after again reading the metamorphasis of vampires it is more of a natural metamorphesis/transformation than magical. The spell in PFRPG states that it works on spells and magical transformation. Vampires transformation, being a natural ability, is not subject to the restraint, in the strictest interpretation.

That said I would allow a vampire to be bound by that device since it is very rare and damn expensive (40,000 gold is a shedload in PFRPG).

how can it be a natural ability of a supernatural being, considering the body is that of a human?

its an inharent ability that differs greatly from any other known magical transformation. It seems to me that its a non-magical transformation or at the minimum one that doesn't conform to how magic works. Thus by strictest interpretaion of the wording of the schackles they would not effect it. I would however rule it otherwise.

it's an inherent MAGICAL ability. chiang-ku dragons also have the power to turn into mist. but there's nothing natural about it. if it was natural, any human could already do it.

sinse it's only gained at vamparisem, it's supernatural.

in fact, the very DEFINITION of a supernatural being is a being with inherent magical powers.

your just confusing "inherent" with "natural"

Its states that the ability of dragons to shapechange is "natural" right in the Chiang Ku description.

Also the ability of vampires is much different as they can take thier clothes and small possession with them in thier transformations. NO other form of natural or magical or supernatural transformation allows this.

that's a strong argument for my side acutally.

'k, let me put it this way.

does turning yourself and your cloths into actual water vapor, retaining your freewill, able to move as you will, and reform your body, including the parts that are NOT water, a sceitific, natural, plasuble thing to do?

if you can, it's natural.

if you can't...it's supernautral.

I approve.

(Oh, and it's supernatural).

~ Josh

[Killer Cyborg]

Hmm... after again reading the metamorphasis of vampires it is more of a natural metamorphesis/transformation than magical. The spell in PFRPG states that it works on spells and magical transformation. Vampires transformation, being a natural ability, is not subject to the restraint, in the strictest interpretation.

That said I would allow a vampire to be bound by that device since it is very rare and damn expensive (40,000 gold is a shedload in PFRPG).

how can it be a natural ability of a supernatural being, considering the body is that of a human?

its an inharent ability that differs greatly from any other known magical transformation. It seems to me that its a non-magical transformation or at the minimum one that doesn't conform to how magic works. Thus by strictest interpretaion of the wording of the schackles they would not effect it. I would however rule it otherwise.

it's an inherent MAGICAL ability. chiang-ku dragons also have the power to turn into mist. but there's nothing natural about it. if it was natural, any human could already do it.

sinse it's only gained at vamparisem, it's supernatural.

in fact, the very DEFINITION of a supernatural being is a being with inherent magical powers.

your just confusing "inherent" with "natural"

Yup.
I can see the confusion since Palladium's wording... well, the way it alway is.
Basically, it's a natural magical ability.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I had written up a bunch of vamp weapons a while ago and things to mess with vamps. One thing i came up with was a juicer harness rigged with a garlic solution that would be pumped through the veins of the vamp to keep it sick. I believe it says that a vamp that has ingested garlic can not use its transformation ability (i may be wrong). Combine the garlic harness with the cross and you got a hell of a fun time.

only problem is it says their body rejects all implants. so they'd just push the harness out

[Nekira Sudacne]

only problem is it says their body rejects all implants. so they'd just push the harness out

It isnt really an implant is it? But even if it is, jus make the needles silver. Cant jus push those out.

yes, it is an implant, and yes, they can push it out

[Nekira Sudacne]

Wait, if i shoot a vamp with a silver bullet, it can jus push it out? I pretty sure that not the case. The silver needle is similar.

yes, they push silver bullets out. it's just that they can't push it out if it's inhte HEART.

they heal normally otherwise.

[Nekira Sudacne]

LOL, Nekira, we're goin H2H on two different threads. I respond here, you respond there and then vice versa. Jus pretty funny to me.

I have to check the vamp book on that. I thought it said somewhere that a vamp cant jus push em out that they have to dig em out or turn to mist, but i could be wrong.

I could be wrong too!

go ahead and check.