hey..why arent there rules to "hot rod" mechs?

[SoulofThunder]

I think we need a robotics ( and other vehicles) supplement specifally to scratch build and customize robots and power armor . these always a subculture of folks that want to "kit out" and "hot rod " thier vehicles.

why wouldnt this exist on rifts earth? the OCC's are there and we've all done it in game to one extent or another. how about some official rulings and items to go along with what we can or cannot do?

now before we get into the debate of the "complexity's" of robotics. there are "shady tree" mechanics now who can build incredible machines . i think that there would be a sub culture like that in existance on rifts earth.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think we need a robotics ( and other vehicles) supplement specifally to scratch build and customize robots and power armor . these always a subculture of folks that want to "kit out" and "hot rod " thier vehicles.

why wouldnt this exist on rifts earth? the OCC's are there and we've all done it in game to one extent or another. how about some official rulings and items to go along with what we can or cannot do?

now before we get into the debate of the "complexity's" of robotics. there are "shady tree" mechanics now who can build incredible machines . i think that there would be a sub culture like that in existance on rifts earth.

uhh, there's robot construction rules in Sourcebook one...

[SoulofThunder]

uhhh.. that book was written ...what? 15 years ago?

ALOT has changed in rifts since then. at the least an update is warrented. and there is no specified rulings on upgrading.

we all know an operator CAN do it , but WHAT can he/she actually do?

exacly how much output can you get outta that motor?

how much can you increase the range of a vehicular weapon?

why does one power armor have an auto/leap dodge and another one does not? how can ya modify that power armor so that it can leap dodge?

just how many weapons can i put on that spider skull walker?

these are a small sampling of questions that come from players and some GM's ( get tired of winging it ) sometimes.

[Nekira Sudacne]

uhhh.. that book was written ...what? 15 years ago?

ALOT has changed in rifts since then. at the least an update is warrented. and there is no specified rulings on upgrading.

we all know an operator CAN do it , but WHAT can he/she actually do?

exacly how much output can you get outta that motor?

how much can you increase the range of a vehicular weapon?

why does one power armor have an auto/leap dodge and another one does not? how can ya modify that power armor so that it can leap dodge?

just how many weapons can i put on that spider skull walker?

these are a small sampling of questions that come from players and some GM's ( get tired of winging it ) sometimes.

Exsactly what an operatator CAN do is detailed in Ultimate Rifts. go pick it up.

and leap dodge is really nothing more than a dodge that puts you a significant distance from where you started. sorry, "Automatically +2 to dodge while leaping" is NOT automatic dodge.

[SoulofThunder]

wow.

just wow.

i never implied that they (the dodges) were the same thing. thanks for droppin that "rules" hammer. perhaps that one paragraph under the operators "abilties" are enough for you. thats fine , but my players and I desire a bit more "meat " to their ability to modify their vehicles .

this question came about AFTER reading RUE and i've used the source book to mod robots and power armor . though that was mentioned , other vehicles were in there as well.

theres no definitive rules on swapping out parts , weight issues with TOO much armament , adapating technologies that exist today into mecha , power armor , aircaft , etc.

i personally would like an expansion on the on the vehicles that rifts specific. instead of going thru 3 books trying to build something. if this werent an idea already , we wouldnt have been given a "book of magic" to attempt to consolidate all the facets of magic into one book.

i would like something like this specifically for robots/power armor/ and other military vehicles.
sheesh.

if you dont , thats fine.

[SoulofThunder]

HU2 has really detailed rules to mod/upgrade/build robots, vehicles and power armors.
you could adapt it to RIFTS or at least take a good ton of ideas form it

i did , but somethings just dont "fit" well. thats one of the books i use , but something rifts specific would be nice.

heck . detailed specs on rifts vehicles ala mechwarrior would be dope. a similar to the GB write-up but for ALL the vehicles would do. detailed hardpoints , weight allowance , etc. just more technical details would add depth to a different demographic that plays rifts.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Something about the name "Fefna" just sounds vaguely obscene to me. Not that I have room to talk, really, but...Fefna...it just sounds dirty.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think we need a robotics ( and other vehicles) supplement specifally to scratch build and customize robots and power armor . these always a subculture of folks that want to "kit out" and "hot rod " thier vehicles.

why wouldnt this exist on rifts earth? the OCC's are there and we've all done it in game to one extent or another. how about some official rulings and items to go along with what we can or cannot do?

It would and should exist on Rifts Earth.
There are the rules for making robots in SB1, but they don't describe anything about improving an existing model. Can you buy extra arms for your Glitterboy or Enforcer? It doesn't say.
What about hover-jets? Doesn't say.

If you CAN, then what exactly is involved?
It doesn't say.

Find a game that has a system for what you want (BattleTech, maybe) and then figure a way to make Palladium's rules do the same thing.
Let me know what you find.

[Gabriel_V]

uhh, there's robot construction rules in Sourcebook one...

Except for the fact that they're woefully inadequate and suck to boot.

[Marrowlight]

In the far future of time there will possibly be a Robotics Unlimited coming out for HU....so one day that might be an option. Until then, hope for something like this in the updated Sourcebook 1 perhaps?

Not likely....but an option.

[Nemo235]

I'd like to see a system for building any kind of device, techno or magic.
Maybe with points and optional rules for monetary cost also, with prices dependant on the type of world economy your character happens to be in.
And, specifically for Heroes Unlimited, how to add super abilities, psionics, and even magic to devices. Right now I just kind of house rule it (read:fudge it).
Robots can have super powers too. Look at the Vision.

[Jack Daniels]

heck . detailed specs on rifts vehicles ala mechwarrior would be dope. a similar to the GB write-up but for ALL the vehicles would do. detailed hardpoints , weight allowance , etc. just more technical details would add depth to a different demographic that plays rifts.

That won't ever happen.
Mechwarrior is a role-playing game based on a table top wargame. The writers paid attention to balance, continuity, precedence, and each other. That means it is easy to have rules for modifications to equipment without them becoming unbalancing.
Rifts is a roleplaying game that was never intended for table top (although it can be painfully done) where there is no concern for balance or precedence and writers paying attention to each other and to continuity is highly optional. That means it is extremely difficult to have rules for modifications to equipment without them becoming unbalancing.

Now to placate those who will think the above means I hate Palladium.
I've played a Mechwarrior campaign for 6 years straight and my character became extraordinarily skilled at basically everything. I am now bored with that game system and haven't touched Battletech or Mechwarrior in years since it is not possible within the rules for any character be better than mine. It literally is not legal to be better than my character is. Rifts on the other hand is a world where there is always someone badder than you are and I am not yet bored with that game.

[SoulofThunder]

im not suggesting a table top version of rifts mech combat. i just mentioned it cause those vehicles were detailed a bit more.

i love the vehicle build rules in the "rigger handbook " for that other game. and something similar to that would be a big help to rifts fans who are into the mechs/power armor moreso than magic.

some structure of how much the vehicles could be modified would be a help. some folks want to modify somewhat .

then you have the munchie builders who want to put a boomgun on a terrain hopper ( just an example , no this want even suggested) .



i've used the HU and SB1 combo for years now as a player and GM and something always comes up either way cause we are wingin' it.

[SoulofThunder]

If you want a few avenues to walk here's one: Make your own desision, (not trying to be a jerk) thats what gaming is about, you want two extra arms an a glitter boy ok... what will control them?, you will have to compleatly redesign the computer to handel such a task, frame modifications, power and hydrolic suply problems.. ect. ect. ect.

#2 Pick up a game called Armored Core 3, Silent Line, Nexus, or Ninebreaker. That might help with your designing mecca.

I thought about submitting modification/creation rules for Robots, Power Armor, Hybrids, Hovercraft ect. but I figuard there is so much in Rifts it would probly be a waste of time.

Armored Core is EXACTLY where the the issue started . we are/were avid players of the game and the current campaign plot is has some elements to it. including the groups name of "Ravens" .

i've run the game well so far , but you know some folks wil always push for that extra inch. some canon material would help to stave that off.

[Jefffar]

If you want new rules for custom 'bots, PA and vehciles - write them, polsihng them up real nice and submit them to the Rifter so the rest of us can get 'em too.

[Nekira Sudacne]

i never implied that they (the dodges) were the same thing. thanks for droppin that "rules" hammer. perhaps that one paragraph under the operators "abilties" are enough for you. thats fine , but my players and I desire a bit more "meat " to their ability to modify their vehicles .

this question came about AFTER reading RUE and i've used the source book to mod robots and power armor . though that was mentioned , other vehicles were in there as well.

theres no definitive rules on swapping out parts , weight issues with TOO much armament , adapating technologies that exist today into mecha , power armor , aircaft , etc.

huh.

to be perfectly honest, the issue never even crossed my mind once.

that said, if a player wanted to, i'd just make something up and not worry about rules.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

I think the problem would be that the robots and power armor in Rifts is just sort of thrown together. There is no consistent formula for the things you are talking about. It's totally arbitrary. The writers just went with what sounded cool and did that.
I imagine trying to trick out a suit of power armor with extra arms and rocket launchers and whatever would bring all sorts of inconsistencies and mathematical errors to the surface, that frankly, no one wants to deal with. Rifts just isn't that kind of game.
The closest you're going to get is Sourcebook 1 and Rifts Mercenaries. Juicer Uprising also has a couple of features that can be added to power armor, like sensor jammers and rocket boots (both of which own hard).

[Kelorin]

I think we need a robotics ( and other vehicles) supplement specifally to scratch build and customize robots and power armor . these always a subculture of folks that want to "kit out" and "hot rod " thier vehicles.

why wouldnt this exist on rifts earth? the OCC's are there and we've all done it in game to one extent or another. how about some official rulings and items to go along with what we can or cannot do?

now before we get into the debate of the "complexity's" of robotics. there are "shady tree" mechanics now who can build incredible machines . i think that there would be a sub culture like that in existance on rifts earth.

The Rifts version of Monster Garage or Pimp my Ride eh? I wouldn't say we 'need' such a supplement, but I would certainly buy it, if it came out.

There a number of obstacles to overcome for this to occur.

In a Rifts setting, the number of folks that would have the resources to 'kit out' let alone, 'scratch build' anything would be few and far between. I don't see the guys from Monster Garage carrying their whole outfit around with them on camping trips. So, the option wouldn't be realistic for travelling Operators. This leaves with City Operators, that have a steady supply of clients willing to trick out their bots. Say a place like Mercstown, or Kingsdale.

The next thing to consider is that most Robots and RPA's are military-grade equipment. In real life, civilian vehicles aren't always built 'as good as available technology will allow' to keep manufacturing costs reasonable for normal consumers. A typical family car, SUV, or even high-end sports car normally has a limited life cycle, so they're not normally designed to last for years and years (collectors notwithstanding).

Military vehicles, especially big-ticket vehicles like jet fighters, tanks, and warships need to last for decades. As a result, they tend to be built tougher, with better materials, to very specific performance requirements. The armed forces already get all their rides as tricked out as much as they want them, staight from the factory. In an MDC setting, the military isn't going to want to trick out or improve a given vehicle that much, since the vehicle in question should already be engineered to the performance specs they wanted in the first place.

So who is going to want to upgrade, or improve the performance of a given 'bot or RPA. Independent adventurers? Can you afford to pimp an F-22?, so they're out. Manufacturing Kingdoms like the CS or NGR? Again, no for the reasons above. Easier to design and contract out a new bot or RPA, if the current one isn't cutting it. That leaves large Merc companies, and smaller independent Kingdoms that can't design and build their own bots. And then only to older or obsolete bots. There shouldn't be a need (or for that matter, any real way to improve 'state-of-the-art' weapons systems).

Next issue. What is the availability of performance enhancing parts? Are we talking about improving the basic design? Increasing speed, armor or firepower? Adding additional non-factory weapon and sensor options? One could salvage parts from other robots. But that is hit and miss too. In RL, salvaging parts from 18-wheeler, a bulldozer, or helicopter isn't really going to be useful for your Mustang. In theory, there aren't going to be a lot of 'off-the-shelf upgrade parts available for most military bots' The original sponsoring kingdom or company would have added those into the basic design as soon as they became available. Adding weapons or sensors that aren't part of the original design will affect aerodynamics in flying RPA's, and performance or power in other designs. There is the problem of accounting for ammuntion or power requirements. Nevermind programming the vehicle OS to accomodate the new equipment. Tacking on an extra gun turret, won't do you any good if the sensors aren't correctly mated to the turret.

In terms of improving armor, speed or weapons damage, there should be some guidelines based on the size and class of the basic unit. Admittedly, there is room for improvements on some of the older bot designs, using new available technology. A good example would be an oldie but goldie like the X-500 Forager. If one was willing to spend millions of credits in improvements, you could remove all the external armor, and replace with RPA class armor for example. But that requires custom building battleplate using nano-factory assemblies, a time and credit intensive procedure. You could add special sensors from other new units, but then you need to rewrite to OS to factor in the new inputs. The frame is sturdy enough to accomodate additional weapons, but is the powerplant up to the task?, and where to route the power, sensor, and armature subassemblies? On the other hand, something like a Super SAMAS, which represents the state-of-the-art in RPA design, there aren't any better weapons or armor available, or at least not in North America. The Super SAM already has the best in powerplant, armor, firepower, mobility, and sensors, for its scale. It would be nearly impossible for North American Operators to improve the design without resorting to alien tech, like Naruni forcefields, or Kittani plasma-blades.

Just some food for thought. I didn't mean to get so long winded, but the topic really got me going.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

uhh, there's robot construction rules in Sourcebook one...

Except for the fact that they're woefully inadequate and suck to boot.

Huh?

Doesn't sound like the rules in my SB1.

Still as good as ever.

~ Josh

[Killer Cyborg]

uhh, there's robot construction rules in Sourcebook one...

Except for the fact that they're woefully inadequate and suck to boot.

Huh?

Doesn't sound like the rules in my SB1.

Still as good as ever.

~ Josh

I can see them as being "inadequate", but I would hardly say that they suck.
There are some problems though, like the fact that a lot of robots cost drasticlaly less than the sum of their parts.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

uhh, there's robot construction rules in Sourcebook one...

Except for the fact that they're woefully inadequate and suck to boot.

Huh?

Doesn't sound like the rules in my SB1.

Still as good as ever.

~ Josh

I can see them as being "inadequate", but I would hardly say that they suck.
There are some problems though, like the fact that a lot of robots cost drasticlaly less than the sum of their parts.

Yeah, I noticed that too, thus it needs a little tweaking here and there. My players usually use it during character creation though, and thus there hasn't been a prolem.

When I or a player uses it in game, I do a little tweaking to compensate.

~ Josh

[grandmaster z0b]

I think it's a great idea FefnaGale, though I wouldn't hold my breath for canon rules to come out. The rules in Sourcebook 1 may be updated or tweaked though, hopefully the guys at Palladium will tailor it towards PAs not just bots.

I wouldn't worry too much about "just do it yourself" or "we don't need it" comments.

[SoulofThunder]

ok. i've read the input given. for and against. lets look at military vehicles of today. lets go with the F-15 for example. while this jet have been in sevice for YEARS and built "tough" it has gone thru numerous improvments. engine upgrade , sensor upgrades , weapon upgrades, etc. its expensive to do . we live in a society where i do need an f-15 parked in my garage as defense for my town either. nor do i have the machine tool needed to help build such a device.

stay with me now.

now lets look at an old military bi-plane. that thing has been around for years. you look at it and with some time and ingenuity ( and some elbow grease) you could learn to repair and eventually build one. why , because you have 100 years of knowledge before you in this information age. even a layman can figure out how to fix something he NEEDS to fix.
something old plane like this would be easy to fix because its an OLD machine and the knowledge ,in comparison to a NEW device/vehicle, would be considered easy to maintain and even modify once you fiddled around with it enough.

now bringing this back to rifts. there are vehicles that has been floating around for what , a coupla hundred years. are we to really believe NO ONE would try and modify a vehicle to get a little bit "more" out of it?

if i had a F-15 that had been handed down thru generations of my family . do you think that NO effort would be put into gathering tooling or methods developed to maintain such a craft. especillay when theres monsters frothing at the mouth to each your children?

the society of rifts earth is slightly different than ours where survival is paramount ALL the time . even though literacy is almost non-existent , some may miss that some folks (although are functionally illiterate) have that "knack" to figure out how something works . ( not to mention that minor psionics float around and may aid in the discovery)

heck , im not an aircraft mechanic ( though i was exposed to it when i was younger) . but with time , i could figure out the basic of how a military craft works and if im working with a team of folks . all that needs to happen is that everyone put their heads together and im sure over 200 years or more , knowledge of how these things work become apparent and the notion and abilty to mod them will appear.

necessity is the mother of invention.

devolpment costs for NEW vehicles/device/equipment would be high but no so much for vehicles that have floated around for a few year...no generations of people. parts would have to become available to keep it in service.

the use if the terms of modifying vehicles was meant as a joke .

A gb operation for 100 years would have needed an overhaul . who did it beforehand ? probably some dude in some little town with little tooling and a need to get that thing fixed.

you'd be surprised what you can build out of a tank , helicopter and a SAMAS when the frothing mouth , baby eaters are coming.

my point after that long winded diatribe? someone , somewhere would attempt to mod a vehicle after years of the same model being in service. whether it be a hover/motor cycle to a forager back around to an ATV. improments would be made if you cant afford that new fangled thigamabobble.

[devillin]

I can see them as being "inadequate", but I would hardly say that they suck.
There are some problems though, like the fact that a lot of robots cost drasticlaly less than the sum of their parts.

Remember, those are the prices for one-off, custom built parts. There is also the matter of economy of scale. Sure, you can build a SAMAS from scratch, and it will cost you 20 million to purchase all of the various components one at a time. On the other hand, the Coalition builds MILLIONS of them and it only costs them 2 to 4 million for each one. It's the equivalent of you building a Essex-class carrier in your backyard, versus the entire US naval capability of WW2. Sure, if you've got the knowhow and the resources, you could put one out in a couple of years at the cost of upteem millions of dollars, versus the US putting them out in 6 months at 10 million a pop.

[Killer Cyborg]

I can see them as being "inadequate", but I would hardly say that they suck.
There are some problems though, like the fact that a lot of robots cost drasticlaly less than the sum of their parts.

Remember, those are the prices for one-off, custom built parts. There is also the matter of economy of scale. Sure, you can build a SAMAS from scratch, and it will cost you 20 million to purchase all of the various components one at a time. On the other hand, the Coalition builds MILLIONS of them and it only costs them 2 to 4 million for each one. It's the equivalent of you building a Essex-class carrier in your backyard, versus the entire US naval capability of WW2. Sure, if you've got the knowhow and the resources, you could put one out in a couple of years at the cost of upteem millions of dollars, versus the US putting them out in 6 months at 10 million a pop.

Good point.
I'm not sure if it entirely explains it, but it sure takes a good shot.

[devillin]

The closest you're going to get is Sourcebook 1 and Rifts Mercenaries. Juicer Uprising also has a couple of features that can be added to power armor, like sensor jammers and rocket boots (both of which own hard).

Hey, don't forget about the Bionics Sourcebook either. It took me putting SB1 and the Bionics SB side by side to realize that the prices for modifying borg and bionic stuff is almost exactly the same as doing the same to robot stuff between both books. Leading me to belive that someone at Palladium actually went back and read some of the stuff they did before and kept the prices consistant. Because of that, I do allow players to modify bots using equipment and prices from the Bionics SB.

[Jefffar]

Sorry gang, we've taken one step too far into conversion of copywritten materials here.

Thread locked.