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 Post subject: No D20 for Palladium
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:59 pm
  

Palladium Books® Staff

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:04 pm
Posts: 1934
A lot of things go on behind the scenes at Palladium, including market research, i.e. people tell us what they want, like and don't like. When D20 was big, a certain number of people asked us if we'd do anything D20. We said no.

Internet message boards can be strange places. Sometimes a few people can charge in, state their opinions and wait for the outcome they expect. In the case of D20, we're not doing any.

Believe me, I've read some really vile stuff about Palladium. We should do this and we should do that or stop doing something else. And I'm not the only one who knows about those comments. They are discussed and considered.

Sometimes people come in to make suggestions thinking we have not considered this or that angle. We have. I remember a phone call I received from a gentleman who told me that more people would play our games if only we did this or that with the rules. He offered to drive up and fix things. He sounded sincere and I thanked him. But I also said that by creating another set of "official" rules, our fans who liked things the way they are would be confused and/or upset. He didn't quite understand since he was sure our sales would go up if we followed his advice. So I had to say no thanks again.

So keep those suggestions coming but remember, at the end of the day, someone has to decide what to do with them. Some of them are good, some we don't want to do, and some would not be good things to do. We know our fan base. It's worth repeating that I've read comments that would make many people think that there's a large group of people out there who think we are doing this or that wrong.

It also appears to me that a few of these people have a very distorted picture about what goes on here, Using their imaginations, and buying into the ocassional unsubstantiated rumor, they "know" what goes on here. No, you don't. You've only convinced yourself and if you get a few others to agree with you, then that's it. You're ""right""!!! No, you're not.

That's one reason we're having the Palladium Open House in May. The primary reason is to share some good times and celebrate our 25th Anniversary with our fans, but another is to show and tell them what things really are like here.




Alex Marciniszyn,
Palladium Books


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:50 pm
  

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Thank you Alex for making that statement and clearing up those misconceptions.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:14 pm
  

Hero

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Just out of curiosity, has any other company asked about licensing Rifts to make a conversion under their own rules?

I'm not asking for names, like I said, I'm just curious. I can see how there might be conflicts with one RPG licensing another, but if the systems are so different, would that really affect sales of the original? Might it not boost sales?

I've seen some companies do it, which makes me wonder how successful they are with such a project.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:54 pm
  

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Palladium has been in buisness for how long? I think they know what they are doing. I for one stand by them. Why would I spend all the money I do on books and on my website if I did not believe in their product?

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:38 pm
  

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May I ask that the title of this thread be renamed. Something along the lines of No rifts D20 at this time ot something similar. Otherwise it looks like you cannot mention or post anything D20 and make it a sticky thereby ending all the questions about Palladium doing a D20 conversion of any of there products.

While I would not have minded seeing a D20 conversion of Rifts i can accept that you are not doing any. I can name two companies that said "we are not doing any D20 products" and did the exact opposite. Hell I was in the same room when one of the representatives of one of the companies went on a anti-D20 tirade. I respect you guys for sticking to what you believe in even if I do not like some of your decisions.

That being said:

AlexM wrote:
It also appears to me that a few of these people have a very distorted picture about what goes on here, Using their imaginations, and buying into the ocassional unsubstantiated rumor, they "know" what goes on here. No, you don't. You've only convinced yourself and if you get a few others to agree with you, then that's it. You're ""right""!!! No, you're not.



Alex we as individuals will always speculate. Like it or not that's how it's been since the dawn of time. Add to that that almost no information is given out on anything how can we not but speculate. I can understand why you may not like it but that's the purpose of a message board. For debate issues and topics. Some of these you may not like but trying to controling something like that is futile. The only solution is to close the boards and asking for only Pro-palladium stuff to be posted

Alex I have seen you ask some posters including myself to back up a statement I have posted which is your right yet when I and other ask you to do the same in most cases you do not. It's your right to do so. But at the same time you lose the right to ask for any factual statements in a topic. Debate and proving a fact is a two way street.

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Last edited by Sureshot on Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:49 pm
  

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i think this should be sticky'd....

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:20 pm
  

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Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
glitterboy2098 wrote:
i think this should be sticky'd....


How about renaming it?

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Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:27 pm
  

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Title changed to avoid confusion.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:29 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
The Deific NMI wrote:
Title changed to avoid confusion.


Thanks.

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If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:33 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:08 am
Posts: 65
Location: Chattanooga,TN
while i would not have been upset with a D20 conversion,i considered doing it myself,and gave up 15 minutes into it.there's a huge difference,so,i'm not sad to hear "no". :lol:


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:25 pm
  

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Comment: The Emolancer
Mandalorian wrote:
Alex I have seen you ask some posters including myself to back up a statement I have posted which is your right yet when I and other ask you to do the same in most cases you do not. It's your right to do so. But at the same time you lose the right to ask for any factual statements in a topic. Debate and proving a fact is a two way street.


..Actually, he loses no rights. As one of the original staff members of the company that owns these boards, he has all the rights. Period.

..That's one of the reasons I love Palladium Books. These boards could be strict as hell, banning people left and right. But they aren't. Instead, they do a better job of living up to the ideals of the USA than the US government does.

..Freedom of speach is rarely given it's due in this country, but the same cannot be said at these boards.

..Ironically, just like in the real world, the danger of allowing a forum with free expression is the likelihood of it's users becoming deluded as to their rights, taking them out of context and abusing them...

-Mike <8]

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:06 pm
  

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Somewhere on the net is a house D20 version of rifts. Somebody did the dastardly deed already. :x

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:55 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
MADMANMIKE wrote:

..Actually, he loses no rights. As one of the original staff members of the company that owns these boards, he has all the rights. Period.


True but then he should not be asking for exact figures on anything since he does not provide any himself. And like i said before he has every right to refuse. At the same time i am not asking for exact figures nor the inner workings of the company but at least give us some numbers.

MADMANMIKE wrote:
..That's one of the reasons I love Palladium Books. These boards could be strict as hell, banning people left and right. But they aren't. Instead, they do a better job of living up to the ideals of the USA than the US government does.


Actually agree with you on this. About 99% of the time the mods are fair on the boards and i have never denied it. Nor do I begrudge them most of the time for doing it either. It's a thankless job and one which i would probably never do.


MADMANMIKE wrote:
..Freedom of speach is rarely given it's due in this country, but the same cannot be said at these boards.


Once again I agree. we are allowed a certain leeway on these boards and I can say that for the most part i have stuck by the rules. I have said certain things without thinking and have acknowledged it. That behavior imo on my part is a rarity. I also acknowledge that I am guest here.

MADMANMIKE wrote:
..Ironically, just like in the real world, the danger of allowing a forum with free expression is the likelihood of it's users becoming deluded as to their rights, taking them out of context and abusing them...


Now this i disagree with. I have yet to see anyone really abusing their rights on this board. The Mods make certain that those who do are either given warnings and/or banned. They run a tight ship. So I would say your last statement is an exaggeration.

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If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:06 pm
  

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Comment: The Emolancer
Kimba Nevil wrote:
Somewhere on the net is a house D20 version of rifts. Somebody did the dastardly deed already. :x


..I can't imagine it's any good. There's so much more detail in RIFTS than D20 was designed to handle..

-Mike >8]

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:12 am
  

Wanderer

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MADMANMIKE wrote:
Kimba Nevil wrote:
Somewhere on the net is a house D20 version of rifts. Somebody did the dastardly deed already. :x


..I can't imagine it's any good. There's so much more detail in RIFTS than D20 was designed to handle..

-Mike >8]


i can't agree with that,it's just that each system is made to handle detail differently.in Rifts,a GB pilot is a GB pilot,want something different,play something else.in D20,2 human fighters are TOTALLY different.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:36 pm
  

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punkrawkdrums wrote:
MADMANMIKE wrote:
Kimba Nevil wrote:
Somewhere on the net is a house D20 version of rifts. Somebody did the dastardly deed already. :x


..I can't imagine it's any good. There's so much more detail in RIFTS than D20 was designed to handle..

-Mike >8]


i can't agree with that,it's just that each system is made to handle detail differently.in Rifts,a GB pilot is a GB pilot,want something different,play something else.in D20,2 human fighters are TOTALLY different.


Ummmm....

In the Rifts games that I have played, two GB pilots are also TOTALLY different from one another.

~ Josh

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:28 pm
  

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Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:
punkrawkdrums wrote:
MADMANMIKE wrote:
Kimba Nevil wrote:
Somewhere on the net is a house D20 version of rifts. Somebody did the dastardly deed already. :x


..I can't imagine it's any good. There's so much more detail in RIFTS than D20 was designed to handle..

-Mike >8]


i can't agree with that,it's just that each system is made to handle detail differently.in Rifts,a GB pilot is a GB pilot,want something different,play something else.in D20,2 human fighters are TOTALLY different.


Ummmm....

In the Rifts games that I have played, two GB pilots are also TOTALLY different from one another.

~ Josh


I think he's talking about the difference in combat ability. One GB is about the same as another GB as far as the basics go. They both pilot the same power armor and they both will use similar tactics in combat.
A Fighter, on the other hand, might be a high-dex type with paired rapiers and light armor, or he might have a sword and shield and heavy armor, or he might be an archer, or whatever.

But as far as non-combat SKILLS go, two GBs are likely to have more differences than 2 Fighters.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:09 pm
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

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MADMANMIKE wrote:
..That's one of the reasons I love Palladium Books. These boards could be strict as hell, banning people left and right. But they aren't. Instead, they do a better job of living up to the ideals of the USA than the US government does.

..Freedom of speach is rarely given it's due in this country, but the same cannot be said at these boards.


Well, for the most part I agree with you... as long as you don't start talking about one of the "taboo" subjects or get taken the wrong way when offering criticism. Other than that, I'll agree that these boards are pretty nice.

Anyway, I just want to state that I can't wait to get a glimpse of the workings of PB, Alex. In the best-case scenario, perhaps a "working relationship" can be established. At worst, I have a greater understanding of my favorite book company and will have met the staff.

Hopefully this will put any calls for D20 conversion to rest for good. :|

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:20 pm
  

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Knight

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Kimba Nevil wrote:
Somewhere on the net is a house D20 version of rifts. Somebody did the dastardly deed already. :x


I've seen some, but in truth, some OCC's lost a great deal of flare when put into d20.

To date, I've not seen anyone actually get it right. I've tried myself. In the end, I think that it would just be easier to accept the two systems, heart and soul are different from each other. Both have their pros-cons, but they are very different, and if Rifts was going D20, I would want it done right, and unfortunatly, I don't think it truely can be done right.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:58 am
  

Hero

Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 1479
Location: Boise, ID
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:
punkrawkdrums wrote:
MADMANMIKE wrote:
Kimba Nevil wrote:
Somewhere on the net is a house D20 version of rifts. Somebody did the dastardly deed already. :x


..I can't imagine it's any good. There's so much more detail in RIFTS than D20 was designed to handle..

-Mike >8]


i can't agree with that,it's just that each system is made to handle detail differently.in Rifts,a GB pilot is a GB pilot,want something different,play something else.in D20,2 human fighters are TOTALLY different.


Ummmm....

In the Rifts games that I have played, two GB pilots are also TOTALLY different from one another.

~ Josh


I think he's talking about the difference in combat ability. One GB is about the same as another GB as far as the basics go. They both pilot the same power armor and they both will use similar tactics in combat.
A Fighter, on the other hand, might be a high-dex type with paired rapiers and light armor, or he might have a sword and shield and heavy armor, or he might be an archer, or whatever.

But as far as non-combat SKILLS go, two GBs are likely to have more differences than 2 Fighters.


Yeah, but when you generically say "fighter" it is more like saying all Power Armor pilots in Rifts are the same, which is so incorrect. OCCs in Rifts seem more like prestige classes (my guess, I'm not a big d20 player) that they are already specialized.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:23 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:08 am
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Location: Chattanooga,TN
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:
punkrawkdrums wrote:
MADMANMIKE wrote:
Kimba Nevil wrote:
Somewhere on the net is a house D20 version of rifts. Somebody did the dastardly deed already. :x


..I can't imagine it's any good. There's so much more detail in RIFTS than D20 was designed to handle..

-Mike >8]


i can't agree with that,it's just that each system is made to handle detail differently.in Rifts,a GB pilot is a GB pilot,want something different,play something else.in D20,2 human fighters are TOTALLY different.


Ummmm....

In the Rifts games that I have played, two GB pilots are also TOTALLY different from one another.

~ Josh


I think he's talking about the difference in combat ability. One GB is about the same as another GB as far as the basics go. They both pilot the same power armor and they both will use similar tactics in combat.
A Fighter, on the other hand, might be a high-dex type with paired rapiers and light armor, or he might have a sword and shield and heavy armor, or he might be an archer, or whatever.

But as far as non-combat SKILLS go, two GBs are likely to have more differences than 2 Fighters.


pretty much,but even skill wise,they can vary,plus,not all feats are combat based.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:00 pm
  

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Zylo wrote:
OCCs in Rifts seem more like prestige classes (my guess, I'm not a big d20 player) that they are already specialized.


That's just another way of phrasing the same point.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:11 pm
  

Hero

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Zylo wrote:
OCCs in Rifts seem more like prestige classes (my guess, I'm not a big d20 player) that they are already specialized.


That's just another way of phrasing the same point.


Not really. You said a GB is a GB for combat and that a D&D fighter could have a sword, shield and heavy armor, while another can have paired weapons and light armor, making them different. Essentially agreeing with punk.

I'm saying a Power Armor pilot in Rifts could be a GB, a Terrain Hopper pilot, or even a schmuck in that battery powered Wellington suit. Totally different in combat equipment, tactics and such. Essentially disagreeing with his statement.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:16 am
  

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Zylo wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Zylo wrote:
OCCs in Rifts seem more like prestige classes (my guess, I'm not a big d20 player) that they are already specialized.


That's just another way of phrasing the same point.


Not really. You said a GB is a GB for combat and that a D&D fighter could have a sword, shield and heavy armor, while another can have paired weapons and light armor, making them different. Essentially agreeing with punk.

I'm saying a Power Armor pilot in Rifts could be a GB, a Terrain Hopper pilot, or even a schmuck in that battery powered Wellington suit. Totally different in combat equipment, tactics and such. Essentially disagreeing with his statement.


true,but i specified GB pilot.there's not really a way to disagree with my statement without adding to it,which makes it,no longer mine.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:36 am
  

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I think at least part of the reason you'll never see Pall do a d20 conversion book, is the extra work do make it happen. Either that have to get more people in to work out how to convert the systems, or task people already working for Pall, and thus loose the products they were working on (until the conversion book is done). Thus Pall could loose a portion of their income for a short period of time.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:46 pm
  

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CyCo wrote:
I think at least part of the reason you'll never see Pall do a d20 conversion book, is the extra work do make it happen. Either that have to get more people in to work out how to convert the systems, or task people already working for Pall, and thus loose the products they were working on (until the conversion book is done). Thus Pall could loose a portion of their income for a short period of time.


Good point. Convert to D20 or come up with new material.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:13 pm
  

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Just a thought, but it seems like Coke Vs. Pepsi.

Some prefer Coke, Some prefer Pepsi and it's few and far between that like both. If you pour the two drinks together, it just doesnt taste right.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:18 pm
  

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Scott Samson wrote:
Just a thought, but it seems like Coke Vs. Pepsi.

Some prefer Coke, Some prefer Pepsi and it's few and far between that like both. If you pour the two drinks together, it just doesnt taste right.


Jebus!!!

That's a good analogy! :ok:

I've made the whole Coke vs. Pepsi comparison before, but the mixing thing: genius. :ok:

~ Josh

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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:21 pm
  

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:) Thanks Josh! I noticed before that you are drinking my favorite drink in your pic.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:33 am
  

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Heh, I do drink both, and I know when I weat a Coke, and it's a different hankerin when I weat a Pepsi. And I have mixed both, and liked the result.

8]

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:19 pm
  

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CyCo wrote:
Heh, I do drink both, and I know when I weat a Coke, and it's a different hankerin when I weat a Pepsi. And I have mixed both, and liked the result.

8]


This might sound silly, but its true:

Coke and Pepsi taste different depending on where it is made/where you get it from.

Using Coca Cola as an example, Coca Cola in Germany is much sweeter than in the North East of America...and tastes odd (but good) in Israel, etc, etc.

As far as Coke and Pepsi in the North East of the USA, if I mixed them, they taste horrible...however, I wouldn't be surprised if a mixing in Oz (where Cyco lives) would taste pleasing.

~ Josh

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:42 pm
  

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Yeah, Ive had Korean Pepsi (I was in serious need of caffeine and thats all the moon pie man had) Coke in Okinowa reminded me of coke from Mexico. My wife bought me a 16 oz glass bottle that was imported from Mexico and it gave me the runs.

P.S. The Megaverse rocks. D20 is just another brand from Hasbro now.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:11 am
  

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i'm of the opinion that some people on here are just closed minded about D20,period.i admit,it's not worth PB's time.it's past it's most profitable stage,and would draw away from their current/future projects.that does not change the fact that i've noticed what seems like,simply put,D20 bashing.if you are going to be closed minded,then just come out and say it!


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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:16 am
  

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punkrawkdrums wrote:
i'm of the opinion that some people on here are just closed minded about D20,period.i admit,it's not worth PB's time.it's past it's most profitable stage,and would draw away from their current/future projects.that does not change the fact that i've noticed what seems like,simply put,D20 bashing.if you are going to be closed minded,then just come out and say it!


But wouldn't that require a degree of open-mindedness about their close-mindedness?

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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:23 am
  

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MrNexx wrote:
punkrawkdrums wrote:
i'm of the opinion that some people on here are just closed minded about D20,period.i admit,it's not worth PB's time.it's past it's most profitable stage,and would draw away from their current/future projects.that does not change the fact that i've noticed what seems like,simply put,D20 bashing.if you are going to be closed minded,then just come out and say it!


But wouldn't that require a degree of open-mindedness about their close-mindedness?


yeah,and not likely to happen.i guess thay are too afraid to admit they are scared! :lol:


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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:26 am
  

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Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:
CyCo wrote:
Heh, I do drink both, and I know when I weat a Coke, and it's a different hankerin when I weat a Pepsi. And I have mixed both, and liked the result.

8]


This might sound silly, but its true:

Coke and Pepsi taste different depending on where it is made/where you get it from.

Using Coca Cola as an example, Coca Cola in Germany is much sweeter than in the North East of America...and tastes odd (but good) in Israel, etc, etc.

As far as Coke and Pepsi in the North East of the USA, if I mixed them, they taste horrible...however, I wouldn't be surprised if a mixing in Oz (where Cyco lives) would taste pleasing.

~ Josh


I can vouch for trying it with Spanish Coke and Pepsi. It's not pleasant.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:21 am
  

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punkrawkdrums wrote:
i'm of the opinion that some people on here are just closed minded about D20,period.i admit,it's not worth PB's time.it's past it's most profitable stage,and would draw away from their current/future projects.that does not change the fact that i've noticed what seems like,simply put,D20 bashing.if you are going to be closed minded,then just come out and say it!


I've played both plus d100, d6, and diceless systems. They all have strengths and weaknesses and if I were to push for a secondary system for PB to release, it would probly be d6 (ala Shadowrun) were WizKids to do an open license on it.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:59 am
  

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punkrawkdrums wrote:
i'm of the opinion that some people on here are just closed minded about D20,period.i admit,it's not worth PB's time.it's past it's most profitable stage,and would draw away from their current/future projects.that does not change the fact that i've noticed what seems like,simply put,D20 bashing.if you are going to be closed minded,then just come out and say it!


Wait....so if you dislike D20 and prefer the Megaversal System you are close minded?

But if you think Palladium should scrap the Megaversal System and convert to D20 you are open minded?

Sounds like somebody else is being close minded...

~ Josh

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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:18 pm
  

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Took the words right out of my mouth. I find it funny how the most closed minded people will accuse others of being closed minded.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:35 pm
  

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Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:
punkrawkdrums wrote:
i'm of the opinion that some people on here are just closed minded about D20,period.i admit,it's not worth PB's time.it's past it's most profitable stage,and would draw away from their current/future projects.that does not change the fact that i've noticed what seems like,simply put,D20 bashing.if you are going to be closed minded,then just come out and say it!


Wait....so if you dislike D20 and prefer the Megaversal System you are close minded?

But if you think Palladium should scrap the Megaversal System and convert to D20 you are open minded?

Sounds like somebody else is being close minded...

~ Josh


actually,i play both,and enjoy both,but you have yet to give a good reason for your dislike of D20,other than "it sucks,it's evil,i don't like it."maybe you should just think about why you don't like it,and then give an actual answer.i don't think a D20 Rifts is a good idea,but that's not because of the system,it's due to VAST differences in the games,and the systems.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:25 pm
  

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I would say that there are two sides on this board. Those that hate D20 and they have their reasons too which I respect like it or not. And those wo hate it "because". To those I say read the second line of my sig.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:48 pm
  

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Personally I'm glad PB won't be doing a D20 conversion.

Overall I like D&D, (currently in a game in which the group is 26th level, having played from 1st.) but the attempts to bring D20 to genres other then fantasy have never 'clicked' for me. I strongly dislike Star Wars D20 and think it's vastly inferior to WEG D6 system for capturing the feel of the movies. D20 modern is just 'meh' and D20 CoC is a travesty. The only bright spot I can see in the non-fantasy D20 product list is Spycraft 2.0, and I haven't actually played that yet, so I can't say for ceratin if it works.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:01 pm
  

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punkrawkdrums wrote:
Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:
punkrawkdrums wrote:
i'm of the opinion that some people on here are just closed minded about D20,period.i admit,it's not worth PB's time.it's past it's most profitable stage,and would draw away from their current/future projects.that does not change the fact that i've noticed what seems like,simply put,D20 bashing.if you are going to be closed minded,then just come out and say it!


Wait....so if you dislike D20 and prefer the Megaversal System you are close minded?

But if you think Palladium should scrap the Megaversal System and convert to D20 you are open minded?

Sounds like somebody else is being close minded...

~ Josh


actually,i play both,and enjoy both,but you have yet to give a good reason for your dislike of D20,other than "it sucks,it's evil,i don't like it."maybe you should just think about why you don't like it,and then give an actual answer.i don't think a D20 Rifts is a good idea,but that's not because of the system,it's due to VAST differences in the games,and the systems.


I have, on several occasions given my reasons for not liking D20, here they are again: (note that some D20 games, this DOES NOT apply to):

"It's About the Art" - Most (but by no means all) of the D20 books seem to be more about the art and less about the books themselves. Some D20 games that I have played have had the equivalent of one or two (or less) paragraphs on each page, the rest taken up by art. When you consider this, the RUE sized D20 book you just bought for close to $40....really only has as much material in it as a Palladium 64 page adventure sourcebook that costs $10.

Sure the art looks nice, but it seems like many D20 games use that as the selling point of the game.

Shoddy Lay-Out - Looks nice, yeah. But then you realize that all the space they used for flashy borders and graphics could have been better suited for actual game material. Per page, this may not seem like a problem, but if 25% of each page is gobbled up by flashy borders and graphics, it adds up.

Most Are Hard Cover - I love hardcover books....but my wallet does not.

No SI Conversions - Many D20 books (but not all) don't seem to have stats listed in SI...or if they list SI, they don't list American. I love how Palladium provides both.

Three Natural 20's or three Natural 1's - I have encountered this in more than one D20 game. If you get three natural 20's in a row you automatically kill whatever you are fighting...even if it is insanely more powerful than you....if you get three natural ones in a row, you automatically die (though sometimes there is no way to explain how). That rule doesn't sit well with me, it's more like Roll Playing than Role Playing.

No Active Parry or Dodge - Again, unlike in Palladium, alot of D20 games (if not all - but I haven't played all) do not allow you to actively respond. Instead, your ability to respond is figured into your armor rating...again it's more like Roll Playing than Role Playing.

The Combat System in General - I'm sorry, but IMHO Palladium's is far superior: more streamlined, fun and usually makes more sense.

Confinement of Stats - I've seen some D20 books where the stats for a given race, etc. are confined to one paragraph...."I paid for this?"

Palladium Gives You More Bang for Your Buck - Enuff' Said.

Now, as for conversion - If Palladium was to simply just include dual stats (their own + D20) as some people have suggested, that leads to redundancy, which will either mean that the books will have half as much overall material...or be twice as big and thus cost twice as much.

That's what jumps to mind.

HOWEVER, NOTE: I have and do play D20 games and I do enjoy myself. I simply prefer Palladium's System (much, much better IMHO) and think that making it D20 is alogether unnesecarry and rather silly.

~ Josh

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Last edited by Josh Sinsapaugh on Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:52 pm
  

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I can honestly say that on this issue I agree with Josh on ALL POINTS.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:35 pm
  

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i might even add a few points to Josh's astute observations ...

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:04 pm
  

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Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:
Three Natural 20's or three Natural 1's - I have encountered this in more than one D20 game. If you get three natural 20's in a row you automatically kill whatever you are fighting...even if it is insanely more powerful than you....if you get three natural ones in a row, you automatically die (though sometimes there is no way to explain how). That rule doesn't sit well with me, it's more like Roll Playing than Role Playing.


The three 20 rule is a variant optional rule. The three 1's sounds like someone's house rules, and a dumb one at that.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:42 pm
  

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Rather than make this counter post unnecessarily long I will answer Josh points one after the other

I both disagree and agree with the art. Yes some of the D20 books do have alot of art and some of it imho is pretty bad but in most cases it's tastefully done and never overshadows the text. For the price they are charging for some of the D20 books there better be more than just a minimal amount of art.

From what I see on other message boards a large chunk of gamers want more than just the bare minimum of art in rpgs. It alls helps set the mood. Imo Mutant and Masterminds did not have as much art in it as it has it would not be as successful as it is. Art especially well done art is not a flaw . From what I have read of D20 books I have yet to see any that are overshadowed by the art in it. Would you like to name a few?

At the very least most of the D20 art is true to what a pc can do. The artwork in Palladium imo is very misleading when it comes to what the mages and psionic characters can do. The spells and psychic abilites are nowhere near as powerful as they appear in the art. The rest pretty much is true to what you can do.


Your kidding about the layout right. sorry as much as I like reading Palladium books the layout imo is poor. Chapters continue into other chapters material spread out through out the book when it should be in one spot. An example in RUE the optional dragon hand to hand table. That should have been in the Dragon RCC section not at the end of the book. Not to mention the constant copy and paste errors.

As for Hardcovers I love them too but agree that it can get expensive. Though it's not a trend in D20 only. Go to your nearest gaming store and check out other hardcover rps besides White Wolf and D20. Minimum price for a hardcover rpg today 30-40$ at most 45$ and up. It's a trend that will stay in the gaming industry as long as gamers are willing to pay the prices.

As for the SI conversions. Agreed it would be nice if all had them though it's not a flaw. Most gamers use the metric system not the imperial system of measurement. Also agree that Palladium providing both is a good thing.

I do not know what games you play in but three Straight D20 and three straight ones are a statistically impossibility. I have been gaming for 10 or more years and have come across that once. Nor do you "auto kill" whatever you are fighting unless you are playing a high level game. Nor do you automatically die unless you fail a fortitude save toward a dc of 15. And that happens only when someone does 50 straight points of damage.

Why? To quote from PHB page 145 "This amount of damage represents a single traumas major that it has a chance to kill even the toughest creature". So I would say that this flaw is false. The same cannot be said if an sdc creature gets hit with an mdc weapon. sure my example is an extreme one but the same can be said of yours.

As for not having an active dodge or parry roll I can agree that it is a flaw but a very minor one. Not every game system has it so it's not unique to D20 and at the same time who cares. When I play D20 I do not worry about or care that I cannot do certain things that the Palladium system allows me to do and vice versa. If I would stick with this line of thinking i would never try any other rpgs.

And no it does not encourage rollplaying vs roleplaying. That depends on the style of game and the gm running it. I could say the something applies to some of Palladiums games too.


The combat system I agree with you . While it allows you to do more it's spread all over the place and the rules for it contradict each other. So running it can become a chore.

Confinement of stats is not a problem of the system but imo poor design of the book and sometimes you do not need more than stats for a given race. Unless the npc is important to the story.

Palladium does give more bang for the book...most of the time.

As for conversions in the books I would not mind it nor I am clamoring to see it either. in any case imo it would be mostly positive because it would get some ex-palladium players back into the fold and make more money for Palladium.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:27 am
  

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as far as active defense,it IS an option for D20,with out adding anymore work.i do remember Josh once stating that he didn't like for it to be "optional",sounding as if you had to be told to do it,but then you turn around and tout a game where half of the rules are house rules....hmmmm.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:30 am
  

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punkrawkdrums wrote:
as far as active defense,it IS an option for D20,with out adding anymore work.i do remember Josh once stating that he didn't like for it to be "optional",sounding as if you had to be told to do it,but then you turn around and tout a game where half of the rules are house rules....hmmmm.


I was fairly certain it was more work in d20 for active defense.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:44 am
  

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As someone who has played both, I can say with authority that Palladium is a good system. D20 is a good system. That doesn't mean that they should be combined. These debates have gone on and on and on and on and on and on and on for years now. Alex has pretty much dropped the final word on the issue of Palladium and D20, and everything else is circular hot air. I think I remember reading these same arguments years ago on this and every other messageboard.

There are better, more meaningful things to argue about. Like how Arzno is going to suck and Hades should be censored because Hades is a naughty word.

And Zachary, I love your sig link. :)

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