Edwards's REF vs ASC?

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Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

Well,

first off, neither Lang nor Hunter was in command of the Pioneer Mission prior to the start of the 2nd Robotech War. Lang was a civilian by that point and Hunter was too low on the totem pole. Neither had command experience for something as massive as that undertaking. So, Edwards would not have had to maroon them as they probably did not figure into his situation.

Second, assuming Edwards somehow convinced the majority of the UEF soldiers of the Pioneer Mission to return to Earth, its doubtful he could have gotten them to overthrow the United Earth Government to install him. The Pioneer Mission would have simply been too massive. Think in terms of the Allied Expeditionary Force to continental Europe in World War II....and then add dependents and manufacturing.

Third, on the off chance somehow Edwards pulls off this massive feat, he then has to somehow defeat and/or undermine the United Earth Forces at home. Suffice to say that the UEF on its own homesoil can draw on far more reserves to stop any beachhead attempt made by the rogue REF. About the only thing Edwards has to truly hold over the UEG and most other Earth governments (UEG members and AUL alike) are the 1st Generation of the Neutron-S Missiles implied to be on the Factory Satellite when the UEF captured it in 2013 (reference Exedore's comments in Viva Miriya).
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Unread post by Hystrix »

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Well,

first off, neither Lang nor Hunter was in command of the Pioneer Mission prior to the start of the 2nd Robotech War.


?

Wasn't the Sentinles camopain nearly over by the time the Second Robotech War started? I mean it took 10 years. The Second Robotech War was only a year and a half. The REF left in what? 2023? And the Second Robotech War was in 2030, right? Rick Hunter would have had enough experience by then don't you think?
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Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

Hystrix wrote:Rick Hunter would have had enough experience by then don't you think?


Since I am basing my arguments on what we know from the Tv series, Hunter took command of the Earth Reclamation Forces sometime prior to eps. #54 Mind Games (the first wave sent in by the REF against the Masters), but we know from eps. #47 Outsiders that the Commander of the Pioneer Mission (which the SDF-3 is associated with) was General Reinhardt. According to Lancer in eps. #78 Ghost Town, the SDF-3 was Hunter's command, which means it was his flagship.

All I know is that Hunter was NOT the Commander-in-Chief of the Pioneer Expedition.
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Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

If Edwards could get the REF to back him, no sweat.

It wouldn't be the first time a victorous and popular general has turned on a civil government and become emporer. Brutus' nightmare with mecha so to speak.

Destroids are more lethal then Battloids. Both sides have VHTs, though the ASC has more. And while the VHT is a pretty potent peice of machinery, it's just not up to long term slugging matches with Destroids.

Logans have speed going for them, and that's it. The Alpha wins in every other department.

The REF has seasoned, battle harden RDF troops as it's backbone, the ASC has a bunch of punk kids who live in awe of the RDF turned REF troops.

It would be a beating.
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Unread post by Lt. Holmes »

Taffy, you can't forget the sheer number of troops the ASC had at its disposal. However large the Pioneer Mission was (and I have no doubts that it was huge), the ASC had a whole planet of people to recruit from.
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Unread post by Lt Gargoyle »

The other factor Edwards would have if he had the support of the troops, is total and complete surprise.

Edwards folds into earth space. contacts earth. tells them all the heros tell, all the while his ships open fire on all major military bases. The ASC have no real chance of scrambling any major defense. then it is just a matter of time before earth has to concead to his whim.
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Unread post by Wildfire »

Just a couple of thoughts on this issue.
I have a hard time believing that the entire REF would assult earth are we forgetting that the REF considers earth home. also there are other leaders like John Carpenter who might stage a revolt inside the REF for attack the earth, also the Zent's might just revolt themselves and then there is two signifigant problems for Edwards to deal with.

Even if you enter in the novel stuff and it talks about him becoming the military C&C for the REF, smoking aliens is much different then smoking humans.
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Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Lt. Holmes wrote:Taffy, you can't forget the sheer number of troops the ASC had at its disposal. However large the Pioneer Mission was (and I have no doubts that it was huge), the ASC had a whole planet of people to recruit from.


Perhaps, but I tend to disagree. First of all, a man like Edwards would be seen as a great liberator from the "tyranical" rule of the UEG and their ASC lackeys. He was a great deal more politically savy then alot of the other ASC and REF commanders. The legend of Henry Goval, as an Icon would have been his to command, as would the Skull and Cross Bones icon.

As a military, the REF core doctorine is about hot dropping onto a hostile planet against unequal odds and take ground. Besides, the REF has one major advantage that the ASC has no real defense for. Cyclones. The ASC couldn't defend their vital ground bound installations with Battloids against Cyclones. A few hot drops of the REF's best covert ops cyc teams, and the REF would own most of the ASC's ground facilities. Manufacturing, government buildings, commerce, airstrips, sea ports, star ports. While the ASC has a solid program, give or take a few mecha mistakes, they just aren't geared for that kind of a fight.

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Unread post by Wildfire »

Hey TAffy please correct me if I am wrong but the REf developed the cyclone late in the war so if Edwards came back he not have the vaunted cyclone to shove down the ASC throat with a CADS-1 tongue depresor.
It has been a few weeks since I watched The first Episode of the New Generation but I remeber Scott talking about how new the cyclones were, and he is on the second reclimation force.
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Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

Basara_549 wrote:It's much more believable that he had allies in the UEG and together they would subvert EarthGov on return, than actually trying to take it by force. Still, the stuff that TY is trying to force down our throat in the current comics.


*snort*

Tommy has yet to get it through his thick skull that Edwards and Leonard are totally different characters with entirely different motivations. The idea that Leonard somehow seized control of the UEF and UEG from within is sickening...and Im not the only one that feels that way. I remember a forum discussion I had with nemrac/Matt Willis and we both wanted to vomit when we read the ending to From the Stars #6.

Taffy:
As for the idea that Edwards would somehow easily swipe aside the United Earth Forces, I hate to tell you this, but they have to LAND first. The UEF has rather destructive anti-ship surface-to-orbit missiles that they wouldn't hesitate to use against a beachhead attempt.

Assuming for half a moment that the REF manages to actually land a division or three, the UEF has the advantage in mobility. Thats why they have a defense-in-depth policy.
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Unread post by Svartalf »

Actually... and going counter to the official Macek line expounded in the RT version of MOSPEADA...

I always thought that the psycho responsible for ordering and launching the neutron missiles at Earth was not Rick Hunter, but Edwards indeed.
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Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Svartalf wrote:Actually... and going counter to the official Macek line expounded in the RT version of MOSPEADA...

I always thought that the psycho responsible for ordering and launching the neutron missiles at Earth was not Rick Hunter, but Edwards indeed.

you mean Everyone in the REf is Liars then?
Hunter is the commander of the REF forces at of Invid invasion.
Hunter Sends back Mutiple suicide attampts to Fight an enemy he did no Recon on.
or (by the Novels) He Sends back Mutiple attack waves to get slaughtred by an Enemy he knows will Slaughter his forces.
Then He decides to Blow up the Earth... Just because he can.
or (by the novesl) Cant convince His Alien "Allies" to go back to Liberate earth.. After spending a Decade doing so for there Homewolrds.... but the Karbarens Give him some Neutron-s Missles to Blow up the Earth. Both Proving Edwars Right, and Making Huntera Criminal.
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Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Zerebus wrote:I'm not sure we all read the question right, on closer inspection.

I'm thinking now that the question was more of a "What if the Hunter and Lang faction teamed up with the Robotech Masters to fight the Invid, and Edwards took over the REF while they were gone?"

Then returned to Earth with intents of exploiting the situation for his own advancement. There's the beginnings of a plot in there. The original Mission Leaders of the REF could be painted as traitors, for starters.

Thats What Did Happen Thou.
The Origonal REf Leadership Was Traitors to Earth.
Using the Macek Version of Events for Sentinels.
The Hunter's (And Friends) Abandon the REF to Go help some Aliens. Much against the Advise of Everyone. Even Edwards say the Aliens will betray you, make you help them libertate their Planets, then Leave you to Fight for Earth Alone.
after The Hunter's, Sterlings's, Grant's, Breetia, Jack & Karen join the Sentinels Alliance, and Drop their Commision in the REF.. they Fight for years on End to Save the Lives of Countless Aliens.
While TR Edwards Fights to Save the REF from the Invid.
During this Time the Humans in the REf are infected with All sorts of Alien powers.
Colonel Wolfe who Joined the Sentinels dose Return to the REF, to Lead an Assult Wave back to Earth to Stop the Invasion by the Robotech Masters. Scott Bernard the Alien Hateing REF Pilot, Recalls Wolfe as a Major Hero)
On the Sentinels final confrontation with the Regent, Breetia Gets Killed.
TR Edwards Leads a Sucessful Millitary campaigne against the Invid, and Kills the Regent. Then Takes control of the Inorganic Forces and is Going to Wipe out the Robotech Masters (The Origonal Mission of the REF)
Rick Hunter then Assinates Edwards. Causing the Inorganics to Nearly Wipe out Life on Tirol.
By the end of these Events the Rick Hunter Cares nothing for the People of Earth, and Orders the Use of the Neutron-S Missles to Kill off All humanity. under the Influence of his new Alien Masters.

Edwards: Loyal to Earth to the Very End.
Hunter: Traitor, Murder, Assasin, Alien Pawn, Genocidal Maniac, Butcherer.
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Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Zerebus wrote:Bah. Obviously that was Edwards replacing Rick with an evil clone puppet... not that we ever hear from Rick directly later in the series to get his side of the story. :D

Not Possible.
then the "goody goody" Hunter would have had to Stop the Evil one.
But We do Hear enough from Rick Hunter to know alot about him. Direct comments are impossible by the very nature of the Invid invasion Setting.
Scott's and the SDF-4's Commnader's comments Give you a Good Idea about the Nature of the REF & it High Command.
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Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

The Artist Formerly wrote:If Edwards could get the REF to back him, no sweat.

It wouldn't be the first time a victorous and popular general has turned on a civil government and become emporer. Brutus' nightmare with mecha so to speak.

Edwards would have no problem, by the True Sentinels Story line, Edwards was the commander and cheif of the REF after the Hunter's Resigned.

Destroids are more lethal then Battloids. Both sides have VHTs, though the ASC has more. And while the VHT is a pretty potent peice of machinery, it's just not up to long term slugging matches with Destroids.

Logans have speed going for them, and that's it. The Alpha wins in every other department.

Since were Talking the Show as well, you forget the Syphlid Veritech & Other Fighters the UEF uses, Many which have More Long Range Capability then Anything the REf took with them.

The REF has seasoned, battle harden RDF troops as it's backbone, the ASC has a bunch of punk kids who live in awe of the RDF turned REF troops.

Numbers mean alot more then your willing to Give Credit to.
The UEF Put for Ships in to Orbit in one Engagment wiht the Masters then the REF Sent to Earth in 5 Invasion forces. The UEF Also Held its Ground against the Mighitest Opponets to Ever Invade the Earth, And Won.
and the REF was Equaly Green. Jackl Baker was 15 years old, and a Frontline Fighter. Karen Penn was 14, and Part of the Wolf-Pack. The only Vetran Leadership was the High Command, the Hunter's, Sterling's, Grant's.
and the Thing you really love to Forget is, the UEF is the RDF... the REF was nearly completly Recruited form Green Troops.


It would be a beating.

for the REF.
The UEF fought off the Robotech Masters, Who's Fleet Out numbred the Largest REF Fleets of 2044. the REf got Whooped 5 Times by the Invid... who lack Capital Ships, and Anything with a Range over 2 miles. (heck they even lack Raidar, and Common sense)
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Unread post by Jefffar »

I think the REF could do it, but not in a conventional fight it out sense.

It would be through the combination of strategic suprise and tactical williness of Edwards who only really was beaten because he was the villain.

Basically He'd sieze the government without anybody realizing it. Make sure the UEF forces were unable to mount a serious counter offensive if they ever figured out what happened. Finally he'd expand his secret tendrils throughout the UEG and UEF until nothing happened counter to his wishes.


Then he'd whup the hell out of the EBSIS.
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Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Wildfire wrote:Hey TAffy please correct me if I am wrong but the REf developed the cyclone late in the war so if Edwards came back he not have the vaunted cyclone to shove down the ASC throat with a CADS-1 tongue depresor.
It has been a few weeks since I watched The first Episode of the New Generation but I remeber Scott talking about how new the cyclones were, and he is on the second reclimation force.


Couldn't be. They were already on earth when Scott got ther. Lancer had his, Rook had her's. They both already knew how to use them. Lancer had come down in a previous (failed) invasion.

Other's here have posted that the offical idea was that several new units were developed after the REF left earth, but I find that somewhat unlikely unless we're talking about existing technology and modifying it (like the Vindicator, which is a supersized alpha in essence). The logistics of such an undertaking, in deep space no less is mind boggling. Think of all the trials that a machine like a Cyclone or a Destroid would have to go through to gain combat certification. Then you have to do it while keeping a existing force operational in space, plus find the resources to make it work and manufacture from.

Aside from Anime physics, the idea of building a great fleet of REF ships and totally new mecha is extreamly implausable.
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Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote: Taffy:
As for the idea that Edwards would somehow easily swipe aside the United Earth Forces, I hate to tell you this, but they have to LAND first. The UEF has rather destructive anti-ship surface-to-orbit missiles that they wouldn't hesitate to use against a beachhead attempt.

Assuming for half a moment that the REF manages to actually land a division or three, the UEF has the advantage in mobility. Thats why they have a defense-in-depth policy.


I'd say the REF, built for exactly that kind of a fight, could evisorate the ASC's space defenses. Remember, they are valued allies coming home. They have the keys to the gate, the front door, the back door, the sliding screen door, and they know which windows can be jiggled open and you can crawl through.

Even in a straight up open fight, the REF has the advantage. They have weapons designed for breaking up planetary defenses (and probably sim-tested against the very systems that now guard Earth).

Once their down, the ASC is beat. The ASC has one single mecha unit that's a threat, and everything else is fodder for the big guns of the Destroids. It would be a beating.
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Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Edwards would have no problem, by the True Sentinels Story line, Edwards was the commander and cheif of the REF after the Hunter's Resigned.


True story line? That seems to fluctate with whatever seems to suck the least, at the time.

Since were Talking the Show as well, you forget the Syphlid Veritech & Other Fighters the UEF uses, Many which have More Long Range Capability then Anything the REf took with them.


I have no doubt that whatever the ASC had going for them, the REF had more "barely seen" units that would have smoked the ASC's "Barely seens." That's kind of a moot point.

Numbers mean alot more then your willing to Give Credit to.


That's what the Arabs said in the seven days war. Didn't quiet work out that way. Training and experience always carry the day. The ASC couldn't even prevent the commander of one of their line units from breaking into a ASC hospital to interogate one of the few (only?) POWs they had. From their own troops. People who answer, to them. Leonard's command couldn't find it's ass with both hands, a map and a flash light.

The UEF Put for Ships in to Orbit in one Engagment wiht the Masters then the REF Sent to Earth in 5 Invasion forces. The UEF Also Held its Ground against the Mighitest Opponets to Ever Invade the Earth, And Won.
and the REF was Equaly Green. Jackl Baker was 15 years old, and a Frontline Fighter. Karen Penn was 14, and Part of the Wolf-Pack. The only Vetran Leadership was the High Command, the Hunter's, Sterling's, Grant's.
and the Thing you really love to Forget is, the UEF is the RDF... the REF was nearly completly Recruited form Green Troops.


I have no idea where that's from. Baker and Penn were both 17 at the begining of the Sentinals (Sentinels, page 148). Maybe they were hot pilots and got into their respective units based on natural talent. Lancer's Rockers and Return of the Masters both repeatedly show us the old RDF had gone into the REF. The ASC is not the RDF.


for the REF.
The UEF fought off the Robotech Masters, Who's Fleet Out numbred the Largest REF Fleets of 2044. the REf got Whooped 5 Times by the Invid... who lack Capital Ships, and Anything with a Range over 2 miles. (heck they even lack Raidar, and Common sense)


I only see three mother ships listed. The ASC didn't win anything against the Masters outside a pyric victory, and were so spent and depleted by the end of the fight that the Russians had them beat. The UEG fell apart and then the Invid came and turned the planet into their own private green house. The ASC wasn't up to the task.
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Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Zerebus wrote:Taf, there were at least six motherships shown in the cartoon, but by fleet size these guys are referring to the smaller combat craft that didn't make it into the RPG.


So they don't exist then. This isn't RT.com, it's Palladium books.
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Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

Zerebus wrote:Taf, there were at least six motherships shown in the cartoon, but by fleet size these guys are referring to the smaller combat craft that didn't make it into the RPG.


Sorry, closer to 13 city-ships. And there are scenes that imply there are even more, closer to 20. And yes, each City-ship has at least 5 heavy cruiser escorts though its probable that they had 10 to every 1 city-ship. There has never been an accurate count of the number of multi-purpose transports (the ones seen in Half Moon and The Hunters).

The UEG fell apart and then the Invid came and turned the planet into their own private green house. The ASC wasn't up to the task.


Uh, no. The UEG fell to the Invid and the ASC was overwhelmed because they were STILL fighting the forces of the Masters when the Invid invaded.
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Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

The Artist Formerly wrote:I'd say the REF, built for exactly that kind of a fight, could evisorate the ASC's space defenses.


Sorry, but if you're talking about the REF's vaunted Ikazuchi's, I hate to break it to you, but they are glorified troop ships. They have ONLY the 8 upper deck guns. While they are adept at blowing up unarmed troop ships like the Shell-Door Transport, their effectiveness against the ASC's PURELY space combat fleet is questionable at best.

Unless you are talking about the Pioneer Mission fleet returning....then the match is more even. But the REF from the 3rd Robotech War would get eaten alive approaching near-Earth orbit if they faced the Southern Cross.

Even in a straight up open fight, the REF has the advantage. They have weapons designed for breaking up planetary defenses (and probably sim-tested against the very systems that now guard Earth).


The Pioneer Mission Fleet, which had the same style combat warships as the ASC, yes (on top of the ships we see in the 3rd Robotech War), then you would be right. However, the REF from the 3rd Robotech War is gonna die horribly at the hands of the UEF if they attacked them.

Once their down, the ASC is beat. The ASC has one single mecha unit that's a threat, and everything else is fodder for the big guns of the Destroids. It would be a beating.

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Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

Zerebus wrote:I said at least. It stands at that count, as six is the bare minimum of the disputed numbers.


Actually, I was wrong as well. The bare minimum stands at 11. Check out the opening of eps. #53 The Hunters as you can count 10 city-ships in orbit, minus 1 that was destroyed in eps. #47 Outsiders.
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Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Uh, no. The UEG fell to the Invid and the ASC was overwhelmed because they were STILL fighting the forces of the Masters when the Invid invaded.


Not according to Invid Invasion...

Even if that was the case, then the ASC failed to beat the Masters, didn't they?
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Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Sorry, but if you're talking about the REF's vaunted Ikazuchi's, I hate to break it to you, but they are glorified troop ships. They have ONLY the 8 upper deck guns. While they are adept at blowing up unarmed troop ships like the Shell-Door Transport, their effectiveness against the ASC's PURELY space combat fleet is questionable at best.


Garfish, Ikazuchis, Beta fighters, Cyclops recon, and the hand full of ASC craft in the REF's arsenal.

Unless you are talking about the Pioneer Mission fleet returning....then the match is more even. But the REF from the 3rd Robotech War would get eaten alive approaching near-Earth orbit if they faced the Southern Cross.


Them too.

The Pioneer Mission Fleet, which had the same style combat warships as the ASC, yes (on top of the ships we see in the 3rd Robotech War), then you would be right. However, the REF from the 3rd Robotech War is gonna die horribly at the hands of the UEF if they attacked them.


No, they won't.

You really dont understand the concept of modern warfare.


To destroy your enemies' ability to make war. Take over or take out his manufacturing ability, ability to govern, ability to provide needed goods and services.

You are like every other Macross fanboy


I'm sorry, did you just call me a fan boy?

that thinks mobile artillery pieces somehow equate with victory. Sorry, but this is asinine. Where do you think the ASC is going to hold their lines, brainiac? In the cities where Destroids are of far less value. The Close Quarters nature of Urban Terrain is sure death for a Destroid....even those slated for use in The Sentinels. About the only way Destroids win in urban combat is by bombarding a city to complete rubble.


Huh.

Let's take a look at that.

GMP (Gimp) Battloid. 45 MPH, limited flight (if you reduce ground speed to 35 MPH), height of 20 feet tall, 14 tons standard, 16.5 tons with jet pack. One E-11 gun pod, 1d4x10 or a E-20 gun pod, 1d4x10 two head lasers, 2d6/4d6. Best reach, 6000 feet. 200 MDC main body, Parrying shields in the arms. Laser resistant armor.

Gladiator MK III Speed: 120 MPH, cruises at half that, jump capable, able to climb, spesifically built to be able to cross difficult terrain. Height of 27 feet tall. 19.2 tons, fully loaded. Twin linked laser cannons, (3d6/6d6), rapid fire laser turret, 1d4x10 (medium burst), GR-102 Mini missile system, (5d6 to 1d4x10). MM-50 SRM system (1d4x10 to 1d6x10) to . Can use most any gun pod, including the EU-11 and E-20. Main body, 300 MDC. Laser resistant armor.

The GMP doesn't have a indirect fire weapon. The Gladiator does. Those weapons The Gladiator is faster. It weighs more, but only by 2.7 tons. A mere seven feet taller, and seems to be more agile. It can vary it's response to meet whatever the mission throws at it.

The REF X-cal and Raidar X are both equally as well built. The Spartan and MAC III would be a poor choice, but they aren't really intended for this kind of fight.

Plus the REF has cyclones, their own battloids, and hover tanks. Hiding in the cities would be pointless and futile. More on the point, if the ASC is hiding in the cities, then they aren't holding their manufacturing points, bases, resource collection points and other important logistical areas.
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Unread post by Svartalf »

Colonel Wolfe wrote:
Svartalf wrote:Actually... and going counter to the official Macek line expounded in the RT version of MOSPEADA...

I always thought that the psycho responsible for ordering and launching the neutron missiles at Earth was not Rick Hunter, but Edwards indeed.

you mean Everyone in the REf is Liars then?
Hunter is the commander of the REF forces at of Invid invasion.
Hunter Sends back Mutiple suicide attampts to Fight an enemy he did no Recon on.
or (by the Novels) He Sends back Mutiple attack waves to get slaughtred by an Enemy he knows will Slaughter his forces.
Then He decides to Blow up the Earth... Just because he can.
or (by the novesl) Cant convince His Alien "Allies" to go back to Liberate earth.. After spending a Decade doing so for there Homewolrds.... but the Karbarens Give him some Neutron-s Missles to Blow up the Earth. Both Proving Edwars Right, and Making Huntera Criminal.


Mistaken more like... or just a stupid continuity mistake like so many more in the trilogy... I mean, from what I know of Hunter in Macross, that kind of ruthless cruelty and destroying ones's own home base just is not his style... Edwards is a much better candidate for it... we could just assume Rick put him in charge of the Earth reclaiming op while he does tackle the forces of the Regent with the Help of Sentinels...

And I don't know of, nor acknowledge novels or comics.
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Unread post by Wildfire »

Taf I know what your saying and it is a continutity flub but Scott states that Cyclones are a new thing in the first show but Lancer and rook already had them.
The only thing I can thinnk is that he means they are ne to the Alpha pilots but they were already in use by SFs on the planet.
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Unread post by Wildfire »

I know what you mean I can't even find it on E-bay.
It came out when I was a kid with barely any money for comics let alone a book like that (inretrospect the comics were a better idea for the most part, they paid for a vacation and 1st yr tution).

I play with the novels as a base for the sentinels era, since I can't find anything to do with the scripts on the net. If anyone has a link to them please let me know.
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The Artist Formerly wrote:
The UEF Put for Ships in to Orbit in one Engagment wiht the Masters then the REF Sent to Earth in 5 Invasion forces. The UEF Also Held its Ground against the Mighitest Opponets to Ever Invade the Earth, And Won.
and the REF was Equaly Green. Jackl Baker was 15 years old, and a Frontline Fighter. Karen Penn was 14, and Part of the Wolf-Pack. The only Vetran Leadership was the High Command, the Hunter's, Sterling's, Grant's.
and the Thing you really love to Forget is, the UEF is the RDF... the REF was nearly completly Recruited form Green Troops.


I have no idea where that's from. Baker and Penn were both 17 at the begining of the Sentinals (Sentinels, page 148). Maybe they were hot pilots and got into their respective units based on natural talent. Lancer's Rockers and Return of the Masters both repeatedly show us the old RDF had gone into the REF. The ASC is not the RDF.

Stop Using the RPG as total canon for the Entire Robotech Universe.
Sentionels Scripts & DVD had Jack and Karen as 15 & 14 respectifuly.
they both were Script-Weilding Characters.... but being 15 in a war means you will be inexperinced.
Lancer's Rockers.. & ROTM... the #1 & #2 worst books Palladium put out for the Robotech RPG? all that Proves it the Morons who wrote these books never Watched the Show or Did much Research in to the Subject. The Majority of these book Openly Contradict eachother...


for the REF.
The UEF fought off the Robotech Masters, Who's Fleet Out numbred the Largest REF Fleets of 2044. the REf got Whooped 5 Times by the Invid... who lack Capital Ships, and Anything with a Range over 2 miles. (heck they even lack Raidar, and Common sense)


I only see three mother ships listed. The ASC didn't win anything against the Masters outside a pyric victory, and were so spent and depleted by the end of the fight that the Russians had them beat. The UEG fell apart and then the Invid came and turned the planet into their own private green house. The ASC wasn't up to the task.

Look at the Show, you can count over 14 Motherships in the Masters Fleet & Numerous Other Support Craft for each mothership... the RPG Misses only 4 Shiptypes for the MAsters.
in the Correct Robotech Timeline the Invid Invaded 3 months after the Defeat of the Masters.... not 3 years... but your a little to thick to look beyond the RPG books.
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Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Tetsuya wrote: Also, "Col. Wolfe", could you please illuminate where you are getting this "the real Sentinels" crap? 'Cause talking "RPG Canon" nothing you've said holds one droplet of water.

T

Man... you sure do like to Flame people.
:x :x :x

Well. as Z- Said. its from Art 3. and unfortunatly its pretty uncommon.
Carl Macek wrote the Sentinels... and Wrote Art 3... What He put in Art 3 is alot closer to how he planed to fit Sents in to the Robotech Universe... unlike Mckinney who rewrote the Universes completly. to Fit their Twisted vision for Robotech.
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Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Tetsuya wrote: Lisa Hayes-Hunter and Rick Huner were in command of the REF. The REF *in it's entirety* joined with the Sentinels to defeat the forces of the Invid Regent. The REF aquired the factory satelite during the course of its campaign, securing them at least equal manufacturing capability to the ASC/UEG

T

Unless people put things Like "using only the RPG" arguments like these are really nothing more the Flame bait.
What Macek wrote is just as Offical as the Info KevSim made up for the RPG... since both are considred non-canon Robotech.

From what Reasonable people have to go on: Edwards Gloated about Revenge against the Rick Hunter(on screen in the Sentinels) & worked along side Roy Fokker in exploring the SDF-1 hours after its Crash (RT:GN,1985). these are the only 2 times Edwards is involved in Pre-Mckinney continuity

Everything beyond that is Speculation, as no more of the Series is made beyond 90minutes of Sentinels & the GN. and the RPG's "info" is based off the Sctipts that Macek Wrote Just like Mckinney's works.
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Unread post by Comrade Corsarius »

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Stop Using the RPG as total canon for the Entire Robotech Universe.


Why? This IS the Robotech RPG forum. Even wierdos (no offence, really!) like RSCF acknowledge that. (And yes, I've heard you bang that particular drum before about this forum being for all robotech belly up).

Sentionels Scripts & DVD had Jack and Karen as 15 & 14 respectifuly.
they both were Script-Weilding Characters.... but being 15 in a war means you will be inexperinced.


I agree completely, however Sentinels RPG (page 148) gives both of their ages at 17. Admittedly, still pretty green. The problem is, having never seen a rare, 3-episode, discontinued TV series, and lacking an even rarer book, I utilise the only source that I have on the issue: Sentinels RPG. Now you can say that the book says '15 and 14'. Heck, you could say that they are 500 year old cross-dressing time-travelling midgets. Does any of us know? Can we refute or corroborate that? Not really. So, being on the RPG forums and everything, we use the RPG. Now if I were on the Robotech.com forums (which I'm not), then I'd be more inclined to pay attention to all the collectors and fans etc, but here we've got our own little continuity. That, as you pointed out, is also semi-official, the same as all the stuff that goes on in robotech.com.

Lancer's Rockers.. & ROTM... the #1 & #2 worst books Palladium put out for the Robotech RPG?


I'd say that was perception. While studiously avoiding any of the adventure, or the instrumecha, or the sonic-cannon-equipped, mach 3.3, auto-dodging annihilator (man, that thing just screams MUNCHKIN), I use that book a lot due to it being the closest we'll ever get to an EBSIS sourcebook. I agree that a lot of it is rather awful, but it's a perception to say that it's the worst.

Also, when I play ROTM, the usual response from my players at each turn and twist is 'wow!', 'awesome!', 'cool!', 'We're doing what? how cool is that?', 'Am I in the room? (no) Can I have some mountain dew?'. Seriously, all of the people that I have run this adventure with think it's great and can't wait for 'next week's installment'.

all that Proves it the Morons who wrote these books


Who's flaming now, sonny?

the RPG misses only 4 ship types for the Masters.


Well, I guess that's okay then. I'll play a WWII game with only one type of fighter, and not have 1) heavy bombers, 2) transports, 3) dive bombers, 4) heavy fighters. I'm sure that my P-40s will be up to all the tasks given. (hey, it works for Sky Captain :P )

Other than that: Welcome to Palladium, world of 'we spent hours going into every single detail' and then missing the Beta's arm guns.

but your a little to thick to look beyond the RPG books.


If you want to have a go at Tetsuya for flaming you, go right ahead. He can be like that if he wants to get his point across and does so very agressively, which people can find insulting.

Then again, being an arrogant pain-in-the-arse who flames other people and expects to get away with it (I do recall you saying on another thread that you considered the soviet tele-mental helmet 'that gay old thinking cap idea', insulting both to myself (who is not gay) and probably anyone who is) is also pretty damned insulting. Having someone lord it over everyone else for something he believes, rather than throwing it to the forum, well... we've seen your sort before, and we'll be here after you're gone.

Do yourself a favour, and pull your head in. You have great ideas sometimes and a good grasp of the game. Don't let your arrogance blind you to the fact that not everyone shares your opinion, no matter how forcefully you present it.
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Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Comrade Corsarius wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:Stop Using the RPG as total canon for the Entire Robotech Universe.


Why? This IS the Robotech RPG forum. Even wierdos (no offence, really!) like RSCF acknowledge that. (And yes, I've heard you bang that particular drum before about this forum being for all robotech belly up).

yes, and the Mods agreed about that Particular Drum. as did Alex M agree with me in another Forum that Palladium dosent give proper License Information ob Robotech & TMNT on these forums, or their Main Site.

Lancer's Rockers.. & ROTM... the #1 & #2 worst books Palladium put out for the Robotech RPG?


I'd say that was perception. While studiously avoiding any of the adventure, or the instrumecha, or the sonic-cannon-equipped, mach 3.3, auto-dodging annihilator (man, that thing just screams MUNCHKIN), I use that book a lot due to it being the closest we'll ever get to an EBSIS sourcebook. I agree that a lot of it is rather awful, but it's a perception to say that it's the worst.

Also, when I play ROTM, the usual response from my players at each turn and twist is 'wow!', 'awesome!', 'cool!', 'We're doing what? how cool is that?', 'Am I in the room? (no) Can I have some mountain dew?'. Seriously, all of the people that I have run this adventure with think it's great and can't wait for 'next week's installment'.



all that Proves it the Morons who wrote these books


Who's flaming now, sonny?

none of the Authors of the books I mentioned post here... but if and when they read this i'd hope they consider it a flame...

the RPG misses only 4 ship types for the Masters.


Other than that: Welcome to Palladium, world of 'we spent hours going into every single detail' and then missing the Beta's arm guns.

but they did find its Missing Long range Missles in the Alpahs exhaust ports.

but your a little to thick to look beyond the RPG books.


If you want to have a go at Tetsuya for flaming you, go right ahead. He can be like that if he wants to get his point across and does so very agressively, which people can find insulting.

Flaming someone about a Diffrent Opinon and Calling them all buty a Liar is okay... but everythign I do is Wrong...

Then again, being an arrogant pain-in-the-arse who flames other people and expects to get away with it (I do recall you saying on another thread that you considered the soviet tele-mental helmet 'that gay old thinking cap idea', insulting both to myself (who is not gay) and probably anyone who is) is also pretty damned insulting. Having someone lord it over everyone else for something he believes, rather than throwing it to the forum, well... we've seen your sort before, and we'll be here after you're gone.

I've never Expected to egt away with it. I expect people to report me when i do, just like i do them for flame baiting and Harassing PM's. but if you really took the "Tele-mental helmets are gay" comment to heart, you need some help. Seriously... its a dumb idea... were can master Technology that reads brain waves.. and transfers that into mechamovements... but Cant Make Lasers, Even thou sevral Billion of them were onboard one Crashed Zent Ship.

Do yourself a favour, and pull your head in. You have great ideas sometimes and a good grasp of the game. Don't let your arrogance blind you to the fact that not everyone shares your opinion, no matter how forcefully you present it.

I have not Forced my Ideas in this thread on anyone...
We all know the RPG is VERY flawed. I prefer to look at a more progressive canon for the Series... but every time I say somethign i get Flamed, Flame-baited or Roasted... Like in the VF-1 Hard point talk in another thread.. I was unfairly abused. even when i make Valid points about things I'm Told i'm completly wrong, Stupid and have "more problems then just poor people skills"

I try to have some fun while posting. mostly the Edwards comments are in jest, but then you have people who assult you for no reason.

and Even the people who hold the RPG as complete canon refuse to look at all the Rules presented within... Even thou the OBP cannot fly in the Atmosphere... you will have people who swear thats a Typo... even thou the RPG is always right when I make a comment about it being wrong.
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Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Wildfire wrote:I know what you mean I can't even find it on E-bay.
It came out when I was a kid with barely any money for comics let alone a book like that (inretrospect the comics were a better idea for the most part, they paid for a vacation and 1st yr tution).

I play with the novels as a base for the sentinels era, since I can't find anything to do with the scripts on the net. If anyone has a link to them please let me know.


heres a digital copy of the Scriptbooks fo the 1st 4 episodes... I think they exist up to episode 8(but are impossible to find).
http://www.rtsurfer.com/Sent_scripts/
Provided by Stan Bundy (Basara 549) and Captain JLS
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Unread post by Colonel Wolfe »

Scene 290:

Lisa Hayes:


The Robotech Defense Forces are strong. Uniting under the leadership of General Leonard and Roll Emerson. They'll be able to take care of things while we're gone.


Aprently Sentinels would have Cleared up that Whole REF/RDF/ASC Relationship problem....
the RDF & ASC are the Same thing, and the REf is a Sub-group of the RDF... filled with mostly Green pilots...
Stan dose a nice job of going over this:
http://www.rtsurfer.com/Sent_scripts/Sent_Analysis.htm
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Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Stop Using the RPG as total canon for the Entire Robotech Universe.


No. As far as RT goes, and this board goes. That's all there is. Adding stuff from RT outside what Palladium printed is conversion of someone else's intellectual properties, a big no-no here. You can do it in your games, but you can't post on it. If you want to go with someone other then Palladium's ideas on this, that's fine. But it doesn't hold water with me. I'm not that into the "Robotech experience" I got hooked on this game. Not some art book I haven't read and don't really care about.

Gladiator beats GMP battloid, and Penn and Baker were 17. Most everyone here has those stats, it's all good. If you want to talk about what you saw on the cartoon, either start your own thread, or take it over to one of the sites dedicated to the toon.

Also, Wayne Beaurx is a great writer, his stuff, his art, roxors the hizzie. He did a Aliens Unlimited picture just for me and wrote the all time best villian in all of Palladium books. I find your comments offensive.
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Unread post by Svartalf »

I have to agree with Taffy here... non PB material (beside videos of the original anime) cannot be assumed to be available to RT RPG afficionados... and even so, a lot of the material is either not canon, or later than the PB material, including stuff that is not compatible with the RPG material.
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Unread post by Jefffar »

Ya know folks, Palladium doesn't have to keep this board open.


While there is some vallidity to the statement that only Palladium RT materials should be discussed here, there is also some validity to the point that RT is different in many ways than what was described in the RPG.

In either case, there shouldn't be any calling of names based upon the interpretations of materials the posts have or do not have access to.

In the meantime, this thread is locked.
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