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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:54 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:27 pm
Posts: 66
I KNOW this issue has been discussed several times, in several ways, by several of you, and everyone has an opinion or an interpretation. I believe this is the exact reason why I am confused.

I want to have my own opinion/interpretation on this to apply it to my games, so I think the best way is asking to players/GMs of the game. (since it is difficult to ask Mr. K directly, and may be he is tired of the same old questions anyway). That is way I am posting this here, and I really appreciate any comments any of you has about this issue (and thank you for your patience while reading this).

I want to GM a Robotech campaign, and I have all the books (including the five Macross II, Sentinels, etc). I also have the main Rifts book, GM Guide and a few world books (just to use them for reference and additional info). So my main source for Palladium system and rules is Robotech.


The issue is Combat Bonuses for Mecha/Robot/PA fights, specially when weapon systems (ranged weapons) are used (cannons, turrets, lasers, etc).

A. The rules (in all main sourcebooks) clearly state that ALL bonuses from pilot's HTH training and Mecha combat training are added. If pilot has +1 to parry from HTH basic and +1 to parry from Mecha combat, that pilot fighting in his mecha has +2 to parry.

B. Several Palladium books show character's stats calculated this way. They have a "Combat Bonuses" section, and a "Robot/Mecha/PA Combat Bonuses". Sometimes the Robot section states "in addition to normal combat bonuses" and such, and sometimes it is clearly evident that all bonuses have been added.



One question is:
- Does this apply for ALL types of combat while the pilot is on his mecha (actual physical combat, say a mecha punch AND ranged combat, such a firing a laser or turret)
- or just for physical HTH mecha combat (punches, kicks, etc).


My options are:

1. All bonuses are added for ALL types of combat.

2. All bonuses are added ONLY for physical HTH mecha combat.
For ranged attacks using the mecha's weapon system (or defending from them, such as dodging an autocannon from another mecha), only the mecha HTH training bonuses and some skill (like Weapon System skill) or special bonuses (special weapon or targeting system) are used.

3. All bonuses are added for ALL types of combat EXCEPT for "to strike" bonuses.
- For physical HTH mecha combat: pilot HTH "to strike" bonus + mecha combat HTH "to strike" bonus (+ PP "to strike" bonus at GM discretion)
- For weapon systems: mecha combat HTH "to strike" bonus + Weapon System skill "to strike" bonus + special system "to strike" bonus.


This last option is the one I prefer, for several reasons:
- If the mecha has to dodge (or parry, or roll), it is the pilot's agility and combat knowledge PLUS his mecha combat knowledge that will be used to evade an attack (physical or from a gun, in fighter mode or battloid mode).

- When the mecha is going to strike, it is not the same to use a physical attack or a weapon system. For a punch, the pilot uses his personal combat skill bonuses AND his mecha combat knowledge bonuses to strike with the mecha's fist. For a laser turret, he uses his mecha combat knowledge bonuses and special skill or system bonuses only.
I am following the same idea used in personal (NON MECHA) combat. The pilot uses his personal combat skill bonuses for a punch (with his own fist), but uses his WP skill bonuses for a machine gun.

- In Robotech: RPG Book Eight STRIKE FORCE (written by Wayne Breaux Jr), almost all the NPC presented with a particular line in the "Bonuses in Mecha" section:
"+X to strike, +Y to strike WITH WEAPONS SYSTEMS". This is clearly showing the difference between the 2 types of attacks. (For those with the book, check p.70 to 72).
I have to admit this is the ONLY book I have that has this clearly mentioned. This also means that ALL characters in ALL other books should be adjusted with this difference, work that can become HELL for a GM...

Comments about this?????


Another question is:
What about the *new* rule from Rifts GM Guide (p.41) "Definitive Dodging Rules vs Ranged Attacks", where the dodger of modern weapons has a penalty of -10 to dodge?
I personally dont like the rule, but Mr K. explanation in the book seems logical.

- Does this apply to "Robotech" personal combat (NON MECHA)? (this is not mentioned on any Robotech book, but since Rifts and Robotech use the same system, I wonder..)
- For Robotech, Rifts or any other Palladium game, this ALSO applies to Mecha combat? (I mean, a veritech is ALWAYS dodging enemy gunfire. Big robots also dodge enemy gunfire. This penalty will eliminate all the fun?).

After finding posts related to this, I think a more appropiate question is: Does this -10 to dodge rule even apply to Robotech at all, since it is not mentioned on any of those books?

Comments about this one????


Again, this is not just to start a new flame war or anything. I just would like some input and thoughts from Palladium system users.

Thank you!!!


PS: Should I post this to Palladium Books® Games Q. & A. forum, or leave it here?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:36 am
  

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Monk

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Hav0k wrote:
The issue is Combat Bonuses for Mecha/Robot/PA fights, specially when weapon systems (ranged weapons) are used (cannons, turrets, lasers, etc).

A. The rules (in all main sourcebooks) clearly state that ALL bonuses from pilot's HTH training and Mecha combat training are added. If pilot has +1 to parry from HTH basic and +1 to parry from Mecha combat, that pilot fighting in his mecha has +2 to parry.

B. Several Palladium books show character's stats calculated this way. They have a "Combat Bonuses" section, and a "Robot/Mecha/PA Combat Bonuses". Sometimes the Robot section states "in addition to normal combat bonuses" and such, and sometimes it is clearly evident that all bonuses have been added.



One question is:
- Does this apply for ALL types of combat while the pilot is on his mecha (actual physical combat, say a mecha punch AND ranged combat, such a firing a laser or turret)
- or just for physical HTH mecha combat (punches, kicks, etc).

just for phisical HTH mecha combat


My options are:

3. All bonuses are added for ALL types of combat EXCEPT for "to strike" bonuses.
- For physical HTH mecha combat: pilot HTH "to strike" bonus + mecha combat HTH "to strike" bonus (+ PP "to strike" bonus at GM discretion)
- For weapon systems: mecha combat HTH "to strike" bonus + Weapon System skill "to strike" bonus + special system "to strike" bonus.

this is the correct one, and don't forget to throw Weapon Proficiency in the mix. I also say add in PP bonus becuase the pilot can react to his controls faster than someone else personally

This last option is the one I prefer, for several reasons:
- If the mecha has to dodge (or parry, or roll), it is the pilot's agility and combat knowledge PLUS his mecha combat knowledge that will be used to evade an attack (physical or from a gun, in fighter mode or battloid mode).

- When the mecha is going to strike, it is not the same to use a physical attack or a weapon system. For a punch, the pilot uses his personal combat skill bonuses AND his mecha combat knowledge bonuses to strike with the mecha's fist. For a laser turret, he uses his mecha combat knowledge bonuses and special skill or system bonuses only.
I am following the same idea used in personal (NON MECHA) combat. The pilot uses his personal combat skill bonuses for a punch (with his own fist), but uses his WP skill bonuses for a machine gun.

- In Robotech: RPG Book Eight STRIKE FORCE (written by Wayne Breaux Jr), almost all the NPC presented with a particular line in the "Bonuses in Mecha" section:
"+X to strike, +Y to strike WITH WEAPONS SYSTEMS". This is clearly showing the difference between the 2 types of attacks. (For those with the book, check p.70 to 72).
I have to admit this is the ONLY book I have that has this clearly mentioned. This also means that ALL characters in ALL other books should be adjusted with this difference, work that can become HELL for a GM...

Comments about this?????


Another question is:
What about the *new* rule from Rifts GM Guide (p.41) "Definitive Dodging Rules vs Ranged Attacks", where the dodger of modern weapons has a penalty of -10 to dodge?
I personally dont like the rule, but Mr K. explanation in the book seems logical.

- Does this apply to "Robotech" personal combat (NON MECHA)? (this is not mentioned on any Robotech book, but since Rifts and Robotech use the same system, I wonder..)
- For Robotech, Rifts or any other Palladium game, this ALSO applies to Mecha combat? (I mean, a veritech is ALWAYS dodging enemy gunfire. Big robots also dodge enemy gunfire. This penalty will eliminate all the fun?).

After finding posts related to this, I think a more appropiate question is: Does this -10 to dodge rule even apply to Robotech at all, since it is not mentioned on any of those books?

Comments about this one????

the -10 rule does NOT apply to Robotech. actually, It can't technically sinse the rule came after palladium lost the licence to Robotech, they cannot make any additions or changes to the rules or game, including updates.

Again, this is not just to start a new flame war or anything. I just would like some input and thoughts from Palladium system users.

Thank you!!!


PS: Should I post this to Palladium Books® Games Q. & A. forum, or leave it here?


sinse these questions pretain only to Robotech it is acceptable to leave it here.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:23 am
  

Adventurer

Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:52 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Originally Pittsburgh, Pa, USA, now the SDF-3 lost somewhere in the Eastern Panhandle of W. Virginia
As to the first question you pose, all bonuses are added when a pilot is piloting his mecha except when using missiles which only receive their bonus to strike (another exception is mini-missiles which for all intents and purposes as to this question are "unguided"). So following this all hand to hand and non-missile ranged attacks would combine the pilots own physical combat bonuses with the bonuses list under the mecha combat section. For example say a VF-1 pilot has a to strike of +1, dodge of +2, and a parry of +2 he would add these numbers to the +1 to strike, +2 to dodge, and +2 to parry of the VF-1 while piloting it for a total of +2 to strike, +4 to dodge, and +4 to parry (of course this doesn't include any P.P. bonuses the pilot may receive but I ain't jumping into that fire 8) ).

As to the question of the Rifts dodge rule, I tend to leave it out of Robotech as it was out before Rifts and I try to keep the game moving quickly and their are enough rules to bog it down without adding new rules from another game. :D

But then you have the "Golden Rule" of all RPGs: ALL RULES ARE OPTIONAL. So with that said if it's a rule you like and use in your Rifts games and you're going to be the GM then by all means use it. I know all aren't going to agree but I'm sure you've noticed that's nothing new for this crowd. :lol: 8)

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:14 am
  

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If you go by a strict reading of the rules, the mecha combat bonuses are only for hand-to-hand combat. However, you get to add your other bonuses like hand-to-hand and PP (which I justify as the best measure of a PB character's hand-eye coordination). Plus you would use Robotech's combat system and not Rifts'.

However, the GM can trump the rules.

Personally, here's what I do:

1. All parry/dodge/stirke-type bonuses, whether it be from PP, skills, Hand-to-hand and Mecha Combat get added together when piloting a mecha.

2. Mecha Combat bonuses apply to all forms of combat, except missiles, which require a lock on to hit and those other bonuses don't really apply to that.

3. I never use the -10 rule for two reasons. One, it only takes a 5 to hit (unless that's changed but I don't remember seeing it change); so most of the time you're going to hit and that means combat is about who has the biggest 'gun' vs. who has the most MDC (with some exceptions like if a Juicer is involved). Personally I find that kind of combat more boring than watching the grass grow. Two, I almost always give my games the anime treatment. In other words, everything can be dodged (though that doesn't mean everything will be dodged) unless there is a plot reason why it can't be.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:16 pm
  

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Supreme Being

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2001 2:01 am
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Hav0k wrote:
3. All bonuses are added for ALL types of combat EXCEPT for "to strike" bonuses.
- For physical HTH mecha combat: pilot HTH "to strike" bonus + mecha combat HTH "to strike" bonus (+ PP "to strike" bonus at GM discretion)
- For weapon systems: mecha combat HTH "to strike" bonus + Weapon System skill "to strike" bonus + special system "to strike" bonus.


That is the way I have always read it to be. Even if the strike bonus does apply in both ranged and melee combat, sensor systems and other factors provide bonuses that only apply in one situation or the other, so the bonuses will still vary.


Quote:
In Robotech: RPG Book Eight STRIKE FORCE (written by Wayne Breaux Jr), almost all the NPC presented with a particular line in the "Bonuses in Mecha" section:
"+X to strike, +Y to strike WITH WEAPONS SYSTEMS". This is clearly showing the difference between the 2 types of attacks. (For those with the book, check p.70 to 72).
I have to admit this is the ONLY book I have that has this clearly mentioned. This also means that ALL characters in ALL other books should be adjusted with this difference, work that can become HELL for a GM...


I don't have the book presently, but I seem to recall some of the mecha involved had special ranged combat bonuses from sensors or other special systems...


Quote:
About the *new* rule from Rifts GM Guide (p.41) "Definitive Dodging Rules vs Ranged Attacks", where the dodger of modern weapons has a penalty of -10 to dodge?
I personally dont like the rule, but Mr K. explanation in the book seems logical.

- Does this apply to "Robotech" personal combat (NON MECHA)? (this is not mentioned on any Robotech book, but since Rifts and Robotech use the same system, I wonder..)
- For Robotech, Rifts or any other Palladium game, this ALSO applies to Mecha combat? (I mean, a veritech is ALWAYS dodging enemy gunfire. Big robots also dodge enemy gunfire. This penalty will eliminate all the fun?).

After finding posts related to this, I think a more appropiate question is: Does this -10 to dodge rule even apply to Robotech at all, since it is not mentioned on any of those books?

Comments about this one????


Well the rule doesn't exist in Robotech and never has, but if you want to use it, the -10 dodge penalty applies only to individuals and slow vehicles or mecha on the ground and within 400 feet of the shooter (technically that should be 500 feet...). The penalty is -8 for targets 501 feet and further, and -6 in either case if the target forgoes all attacks and focuses entirely on dodging and moving rapidly away from the shooter. Mecha and vehicles travelling at high speed should suffer no penalty regardless of range.

If you want to use the rule but feel the penalty is too steep, you could reduce it to -4 like in Heroes Unlimited or Ninjas & Superspies, or allow dodges to be made at full bonuses to offset the penalty.

Personally I wouldn't use it at all, as it ruins the anime feel of the game.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:42 pm
  

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Megaversal® Ambassador

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Comment: Your Local Lurker. THAT'S the Reality.....

Email: Chronos47@gmail.com
my take on it is that Protoculture's main advantage allows us to ignore this rule :D

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:43 pm
  

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um

We are talking about a Game based on anima combat. . . . .

Players dont get any penalty and full bonuses in combat

Non Critical NPCs get no bonuses and every penalty to combat if you realy want to capure the feel of anima Combat.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:52 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:27 pm
Posts: 66
Thank you all for commenting on this issue. That was exactly what I was looking for when I dared to post here. :ok:

I now have a clearer idea about all this.

Even though I am still getting arguments saying that "...the books say *Mecha HAND TO HAND*, so you cannot use those bonuses when you use a weapon system of the mecha like a turret...", and I am still saying "... isnt it just logical that if the pilot gets a formal training for mecha combat, he is trained on ALL combat systems for that mecha, so he uses those bonuses for all types of attacks in his mecha?..."

... I end up saying I AM THE GM!!!! :twisted:

I guess they use those rules for a non-anime-based game like Rifts??



Since the first time I read a book from Palladium, I always thought that a very clear, step by step and explained example of combat is missing in ALL the books, FAQs, sites. I first read the Robotech books, and just after a long time I got my hand on the Rifts main book, where I found the only "not so vague" combat example. But , little details are missing.
I know that a complete example would be difficult to put inside a printed version of any book, but if may be only 1 or 2 of those complete examples were available, it would help a LOT of people to understand things, and it can end several arguments (and avoid the problem I had, specially if you cant talk to another GM or player).

What I want to do next (and thanks to you guys) is to write a more or less complete example of combat in most of it forms (personal HTH, personal ranged, mecha HTH, mecha ranged), explaining every little detail, roll, bonus, etc. for Robotech.

I want to include (from Macross Saga):
- One Veritech pilot and his VF-1 (He will handle personal and mecha combat)
- One Terrorist Thug (personal combat foe for the pilot)
- One full size Zentraedi Officer (used to show HTH combat between giant sized foes)
- One Officer pod (for the Zentraedi above, to illustrate HTH AND ranged combat between mechas)

I think this way, I can keep it simple. But I also want to have other examples that would clarify Power Armors (cyclones, Male and Female PA)

I would love to see something like that for Rifts, and may be it can be adapted, but since they *now* seem to me so different games, with different rules interpretations and such, I leave that to the experts. :D

I will post my progress here and ask you all for Help :?


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 Post subject: You know...
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:51 am
  

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Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 6:30 am
Posts: 364
Location: London, Kentucky
When I first played the RPG, under Kevin at Marcon 23 in 1988, all the mecha combat bonuses applied to non-missiles, including strike bonuses.

As a result, I always played it that way.

Think about it for a second, though.

If HTH bonuses (including P.P., which doesn't apply to W.P. normally) do NOT apply to Robotech mecha combat, then what is the difference between a generic character with minimums to be a Veritech Pilot, and Max Sterling? After all, most of the incredible stuff we see him do is before he advances in rank far enough to customize his VT (nine kills in his first mission with Rick, as a Corporal), so the "Max Type" can't be used as an excuse.

Plus, it also gives a way to differentiate between the Protoculture and non-protoculture versions of mecha from Southern Cross (remember, some of them are supposed to be available as non-proto versions with unspecified penalties. For me, the penalty is using the Rifts rule set on which HTH bonuses apply and don't apply to mecha combat).


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:54 am
  

Adventurer

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Posts: 569
Location: Originally Pittsburgh, Pa, USA, now the SDF-3 lost somewhere in the Eastern Panhandle of W. Virginia
RPG book 1 page 35 wrote:
All Mecha possess a design element, protoculture, which creates a
symbiotic link between the pilot and the machine. This symbiotic relationship
enables the Mecha to respond with almost human reflexes,
agility, dexterity and mobility. No, the Mecha does not have an I.Q.
or will of its own, but the pilot's physical abilities to strike, parry,
dodge, roll and attack, do combine with the Mecha which can effectively
double all hand to hand combat abilities.
This is how it works, Players will find two skills that exclusively
determine the Mecha's number of attacks: 1) The pilot's normal, hand
to hand combat skill, and 2) The pilot's Mecha Combat skill. Simply
combine the number of attacks gained from each skill. The total number
indicates the total attacks per melee possible. Most first level pilots,
with both skills, will have a total of FOUR attacks per melee.......



WEAPON SELECTION
The Mecha pilot usually has several modes of attack available to
him. These may include lasers, machineguns, grenade launchers, missiles
and hand to hand combat. Weapons or modes of attack, can be
used in any combination. You are limited only by the number of attacks
per melee and possible, payload and rate of fire restrictions. For example:
a character piloting a Gladiator has five attacks per melee. The
character fires a volley of four missiles (attack #1), fires its top laser
turret (attack #2), fires a long burst from its auto cannon (attack #3),
followed by another long burst from its auto cannon (attack #4), and
punches the Zentraedi Battle Pod which has just lunged out from around
the corner (attack #5). All this in one melee round or 15 seconds.
Wait a minute, you say. This character has FIVE attacks, but, in the
example he fires a volley of four missiles and then continues to attack
four more times. Isn't that EIGHT attacks. No; and here's why.......


The only time this rule doesn't apply is when using missiles, all other attack forms apply be they HtH or ranged weapons. I included an example from the book to show this as well. Of course it applies to mini-missiles as well but that's covered in the Sentinels and Invid Invasion books. Really need to read those mecha combat sections guys, lol. :lol:

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:21 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:27 pm
Posts: 66
Major Fury wrote:
The only time this rule doesn't apply is when using missiles, all other attack forms apply be they HtH or ranged weapons. I included an example from the book to show this as well. Of course it applies to mini-missiles as well but that's covered in the Sentinels and Invid Invasion books. Really need to read those mecha combat sections guys, lol. :lol:


Thank you for exactly quoting the book, because that is exactly my point.

The Robotech RPG book mentions "attacks", "skills", "bonuses", and that they are all added. I agree with that.

I think the problem appears when:
1- People do not agree with this interpretation and state that "HTH" is only "HTH" (and not for ranged attacks).
2- People who go to Rifts and other Palladium books and games and start comparing rules, etc.
3- Palladium "changed", "modified" and "improved" their rules systems several times and you find different pieces in different books (GM Guide, Conversion book 1, etc).


Basara has a very good Fan FAQ where he discusses these issues (mainly focused on the 2 base attacks for characters issue, but he also mentions "old" and "new" rules).


What I have figured out is that the best thing to do is to stick to what you read in the books, and the way you are introduced to the system (first time you play, your GM explanations, etc). If you dont agree, fine change it. If you want to use a single system (like playing Robotech and Rifts and others), use what ever you like.

I also like to way rules are handled by several of you regarding Robotech characters and mechas inside Rifts world. It is logical.... Robotech mecha are faster and are protoculture powered, so they use ALL bonuses, the "-10 dodge" rule is not used for them, etc.....

(Nevertheless, Robotech characters *outside* their mechas are still human and must comply to the -10 for modern weapons, right? Or do they behave like "anime" characters and still avoid the penalty?)


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