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 Post subject: Needing Mecha help...
Unread postPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 2:12 am
  

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The Mecha of Sentinels didn't address certain issues; I'd like some advice in these matters.

REF Raidar X
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

REF Excaliber
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

REF Gladiator
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

REF Spartan
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

REF MAC II
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

TBP Z1
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

OBP Z2
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

CRP Z3
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

VR-052 Bttler
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

VR-041 Saber
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

VR-038-LT
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

VAF-6C
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

VAF-6J
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

VAF-6R
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

VAF-7A
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

VBF-1A
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

VBF-1S
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

VF-V Vindicator
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

Veritech Hover Tank
Power System:
Flight System:
Cost:
Availability:
Black Market Cost:
Black Market Availability:

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 4:20 am
  

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Reddson, some of that info is in the book and is usually found under the "Standard Equipment for ALL Destroids/Veritechs/etc." or in the fluff text just before the individual mecha stats. Availibility within the military for any given mecha can be determined by looking at the mecha compliments for the SDF-3, Ikazuchi, the GMU, etc. As for (black market) cost, and black market availibiltiy: You're guess is as good as mine as these things weren't really important to Robotech as the characters wouldn't be buying these things but rather would be issued or salvaging them (in the case of the Invid Invasion era). However there are a couple of noteworthy exceptions that I'll list here.

Cyclones' Power systems: a mix of gasoline (for stealth) and protoculture cell system used in the Alphas and Betas.

Veritech Hovertank: It's Standarad Equipment can be found in the Southern Cross book. Which means it has laser-resistant armor, runs off a nuclear engine that will last for years (though supposedly has enough Protoculture to initiate the man-machine symbiosis), and its radar and radio are greatly increased.

PS: The info I gave for the above is meant for the RPG version Robotech, which is different from all other versions, including the series. Also, I'm not trying to flame or insult you. I'm trying to help you out a little.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 5:27 am
  

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Dairugger XV wrote:
*snip* runs off a nuclear engine that will last for years (though supposedly has enough Protoculture to initiate the man-machine symbiosis), and its radar and radio are greatly increased.*snip*


The VHT used the same kind of hybrid Protoculture engine as the Veritech Fighter. However, late in the war the ASC ran out of 'culture and had to switch over to nuclear only engines. Most of the talking heads around here, including this one, agree that if your mecha uses Nuclear only power, then it's bonuses and stats should be reduced to reflect that. Fussion are heavier and less robust or potent then their Protoculturesque contemporaries. I posted an article on some of my ideas in a thread called "Nuklear...er Nuclear power."

Black Market cost varies with the market, so they aren't listed in any of the books, you just kind of have to make that stuff up.

Destroid Flight systems come in the form of a jet pack that straps on to all but the MAC series IIRC, that only work in space, with a top speed mach one.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 6:33 pm
  

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ANDY!!! YOU KNOW BETTER!!! :thwak:

Ok, lemme clearify... Firstly, I'm tring to quite smoking, so I'm a little off. Bear with me...

What I'm looking for, mostly vis-a-vis REF-era hardware (for now), is what is the cost of manufacturing the hardware and how avaialbe is it (can they bang out a VAF-6 every hour, every day, or does it take a year to put on together?), and IF I wanted to buy one on the black market, how hard would it be to find and how much am I gonna hafta cough up?

Nowmention is made in Sentinels about Mecha Powerplants (RDF-era Mecha does mention this, really long-winded desigantors). And as for flight systems- Well, just ignore that as far a Destroids go (like I said, I'm a little off).

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 12:31 pm
  

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Some of the information you're looking for simply doesn't exist and you'll have to make it up. Anything anyone says about manufacturing time, cost of production, etc. will be pure speculation and therefore your guess would be just about as good as ours. Anything in regard to the black market, you'd likely have to make up youself, as that sort of information doesn't exist.

Anyway, I know for absolute certain that REF Veritechs (except the VHT which is really an ASC VT) run off of Protoculture cells that last for a few months, at most.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 5:58 pm
  

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I thought Destroid worked off of "normal" nuclear reactors? Not that it really matters.

Any advise on price ranges? Is 10 million for average production costs reasonable? How about manufacturing time? 2 months? Three years?

And the black market? What, 2.5 to 5 times the "normal" cost? And avaliablity, again? Rare, fair, occasional?

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 6:41 pm
  

Well, if i'm not mistaken they do say what EBSIS would pay for a fully intacted Veritech fighter jet "100 million". So the Black Market would be similar cost.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 10:31 pm
  

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Ok, using that as a baseline, considering the buyer (reputable in criminal circles, stable, always pays up, for the most part), factor in the hardware (fully operational high end tech), I figure I can work it out. Thanx Munch! (Er- No pun intended...)

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 11:07 pm
  

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Just to throw my two cents in on manufacturing times.

If you look at the timeline in the RDF manual (I know we were looking at REF stuff but work with me) on pg. 24-25 (3rd printing) and compare with the standard beginning compliment of mecha of the SDF-1 in the Main book.

Mass production of the Veritech began in November 2007 and were unveiled at the Christening in July 2009. So that is 308 in 21 months (14 2/3 a month)

It stats that mass production of destroids began in May 2007 and then the "Complement of Destroids are placed on the SDF-1" in June 2009. So according to the main book that is 212 mecha in 2 years and one month. That breaks down to roughly 8 ½ destroids a month.

I dont know if that helps, but I'm bored so take it or leave it.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 11:37 pm
  

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Pox wrote:
Just to throw my two cents in on manufacturing times.

If you look at the timeline in the RDF manual (I know we were looking at REF stuff but work with me) on pg. 24-25 (3rd printing) and compare with the standard beginning compliment of mecha of the SDF-1 in the Main book.

Mass production of the Veritech began in November 2007 and were unveiled at the Christening in July 2009. So that is 308 in 21 months (14 2/3 a month)

It stats that mass production of destroids began in May 2007 and then the "Complement of Destroids are placed on the SDF-1" in June 2009. So according to the main book that is 212 mecha in 2 years and one month. That breaks down to roughly 8 ½ destroids a month.

I dont know if that helps, but I'm bored so take it or leave it.



and its possible that the production was higher than that, since thats merely what was delivered to macross island. we can't be sure how many more where sent to alaska base and other important locations during that time.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 12:07 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
Pox wrote:
Just to throw my two cents in on manufacturing times.

If you look at the timeline in the RDF manual (I know we were looking at REF stuff but work with me) on pg. 24-25 (3rd printing) and compare with the standard beginning compliment of mecha of the SDF-1 in the Main book.

Mass production of the Veritech began in November 2007 and were unveiled at the Christening in July 2009. So that is 308 in 21 months (14 2/3 a month)

It stats that mass production of destroids began in May 2007 and then the "Complement of Destroids are placed on the SDF-1" in June 2009. So according to the main book that is 212 mecha in 2 years and one month. That breaks down to roughly 8 ½ destroids a month.

I dont know if that helps, but I'm bored so take it or leave it.



and its possible that the production was higher than that, since thats merely what was delivered to macross island. we can't be sure how many more where sent to alaska base and other important locations during that time.


I was going to factor in the compliment of Destroids/Veritechs on the Carriers but I figured that the SDF-1 would get them first before any others due to the PR. The rest of the world and bases would have to defend themselves with Adventurer IIs, Sea Sergeants, and DK / Tornado Tanks :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 3:08 am
  

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Pro Munchy wrote:
Well, if i'm not mistaken they do say what EBSIS would pay for a fully intacted Veritech fighter jet "100 million". So the Black Market would be similar cost.


And the defecting pilot was rewarded with all his credits in gold as he requested.

Unfortunately he suffered a terrible automobile accident in Kursk only a scarce month after his defection and our Heroic Soviet doctors were not able to save him.

He bequeathed all of his worldly goods, and all his unspent (90 million) gold back to the EBSIS with his will ending "Long Live the Heroic Soviet!"

A true comrade in arms. 2nd Lieutenant Kemp was buried with full military honours as a Hero of the EBSIS.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 4:57 am
  

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Lt Col Andy Reddson wrote:
I thought Destroid worked off of "normal" nuclear reactors? Not that it really matters.

Any advise on price ranges? Is 10 million for average production costs reasonable? How about manufacturing time? 2 months? Three years?

And the black market? What, 2.5 to 5 times the "normal" cost? And avaliablity, again? Rare, fair, occasional?


10 million what? Dollars? Credits? Electronic cash that you cant spend without raising flags in the government controlled "bank" that keeps track of the electronic "money"?. Try and think this through, will you?

And in the Sentinels... WHAT Black Market? the Black Market of Planet Thingamabob in the junkyard nebula? the REF is the only force out there, with the Sentinels, who have free access to the REF gear. If a soldier, say, stole an Alpha, where exactly is he going to take it? How is he going to sell it, and to whom? Where is the buyer going to hide it? Onboard the vessel he is stationed on? Did you pause at all to think this through? There is no black market in the Sentinels campaign - there is no consistent world, no civilians to run it, nothing.. just a fleet of military vessels comprising the Pioneer mission that are all controlled by the same people.

And if we are talking about Invid-invasion era earth.. again.. 10 million what? there is no global government.. all trade is just that: trade and barter. How much is that Alpha worth? have any 'culture to trade?

So, how is this fictional Black Market operating? Where is it from? How does it hide?

Just what exactly are we talking about here?

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 7:07 am
  

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Tetsuya wrote:
10 million what? Dollars? Credits? Electronic cash that you cant spend without raising flags in the government controlled "bank" that keeps track of the electronic "money"?. Try and think this through, will you?

And in the Sentinels... WHAT Black Market? the Black Market of Planet Thingamabob in the junkyard nebula? the REF is the only force out there, with the Sentinels, who have free access to the REF gear. If a soldier, say, stole an Alpha, where exactly is he going to take it? How is he going to sell it, and to whom? Where is the buyer going to hide it? Onboard the vessel he is stationed on? Did you pause at all to think this through? There is no black market in the Sentinels campaign - there is no consistent world, no civilians to run it, nothing.. just a fleet of military vessels comprising the Pioneer mission that are all controlled by the same people.

And if we are talking about Invid-invasion era earth.. again.. 10 million what? there is no global government.. all trade is just that: trade and barter. How much is that Alpha worth? have any 'culture to trade?

So, how is this fictional Black Market operating? Where is it from? How does it hide?

Just what exactly are we talking about here?


Considering the 10 million example, what book folks did a quick flick thru and couldn't find it, directly referenced the EBSIS willing to pay that much, I'm assuming late Macross Saga/Early Robotech Masters which does have a degree of stability so literal money, RDF/UEG credits or a equal value in EBSIS script, could be used. Or more likely in equipment.

And Robotech doesn't have anything approaching Rift style credit cards, TG as I consider them incredibly impossible unles they have this mysterious telephone network to link up all the EFTPOS terminals, so paper money is harder to track, or even better go for gold.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 8:28 am
  

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Except he is talking about REF mecha. REF mecha (until the Invid Invasion) are all off in space withe Pioneer Mission.

If we are talking about some VF-1's, then sure, 10 million somethings. There is definitely a black market during Reconstruction-era RT. However, we arent... we are talking about barely-out-of-prototype mecha that were being issued AS the Pioneer Mission was leaving...

by the time they return to earth, after the Invasion, there is no global economy and no money.. black market would deal entirely in Trade and Barter.

The whole topic is ill thought out... back to the drawing board.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 1:48 pm
  

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As for cost in production for the various UEF mecha post-Macross....there is the Factory Satellite and its attendant Factories like Space Station Liberty. RevPrez, myself and a few others have discussed this sort of topic at Rt.com before but there is little economic data available in the Robotech Tv series (the only example I can think of is the dress that cost Dana 360+ credits in Danger Zone).

Figure that the UEG probably rented the factory spaces on Space Station Liberty (and the Factory Satellite) to military-industrial companies. In exchange for that, the companies would rehabilitate the factories and retool them to build Earth mecha and so forth. The UEG would be able to give them the absolute MOUNTAIN of materiel that they had captured from the Factory (and even the remains of the Zentraedi Fleet). So in all likelihood, the UEF got mecha and ships at a relatively reduced cost.

How much that would be is anyone's guess.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 6:03 pm
  

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I think black market cost should be "NO NEGOTIABLE CASH VALUE: SUPREME FAVOUR ONLY" and availability should be "NIL" for most of the big mechs and "Extremely RARE" for the Cyclones.

Face it, nobody is going to jsut sell one of these babies if they get their hands on it. They'd have to be desperate or stupid to part with these things for any sum of money. Only a nation like the EBSIS could actually put up enough cash to make it worth it.

Of course, that's assuming you want a fully operational, factory spec moddel. Repairs and retrofits ("Yeah I know she's got a few miles on her, and I had to replace the PBC-11 with a 90 mm recoiless rifle, but she's got it where it counts.") will be the onlything reasonably available.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 8:39 pm
  

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Pox commented that he figgured it takes 8 ½ months to produce a Destroid, and Glitterboy added to it that those numbers were based on delivery. Which is good, but it doesn't factor in how many factories are banging them out... 1, or 100? I'm not trying to be a dick, but the more lines you have running simultaneuosly, the faster the production rate. (In other words, 8 ½ month seems a little long to me. Probably half that, with many many more having been devilered elsewhere.)

Corsarius waxed philosophic about Mr Kemp (un-T'esn mot!). However, his comments do expose a flaw; If Mr. Kemp had an "accident", how many MORE of their hired guns had "accidents"?

Actually, I suspect few. Perhaps Mr. Kemp took some unkown secret of the ruskies to his grave? 8-)

MattBaby pointed out that the black market is not very stable, which is true. The "strength" of the balck market is the word of the participants. The EBSIS's word, so far as this goes, is VERY reliable. Ermm... Normally.

He also points out that that it would likely be bid on, and paid for in trade; Partly true. Anyone who DID make a business of illiceit trade ussually already has a buyer in mind. Organized car theft rings work on this principle.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan states that the UEG probably rented space on the factory station; I find that unlikely. They probably were paid, and paid well, to manufacture the Mecha, and received space on the factory satellitte for free; Part of the contract.

Jefffar thinks nobody is going to sell their Mecha; They'd have to be desperate or stupid. But this does not factor in people who steal Mecha JUST to sell them. (People boost cars for that all the time, even though they don't have drivers licences.) There's ALWAYS a black market for anything you really want to get, if your pockets are deep enough. Mecha, in general, is probably the HIGHEST end of the black market your average merc could get their hands on, and merc likely would be the ONLY ones able to get their hands on it. (Other than high-tech bandits who just scrouge it from wrecks, that is.)

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 9:56 pm
  

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Again, aboard ship on the vessels of the Pioneer Mission, this just isnt possible. If you steal an REF mecha.. where do you take it? Who do you sell it to? What do you use to pay?

After the Jupiter and Mars wings return to Invid-occupied Earth, the Black Market wouldnt deal in money. There is no world government and there is no money. It is also supremely unlikely that anyone would steal a mecha just to sell it... in Invid Invasion-era earth they could profit far more by using the mecha for protection and strong-arm tactics.

REF Mecha simply couldnt possibly be on the Black Market.. in the era's that they exist - there is no black market (the Pioneer Mission) or the Black Market doesnt deal in money and working mecha (Invid Invasion era Earth).

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 2:26 am
  

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Tetsuya wrote:
REF Mecha simply couldnt possibly be on the Black Market.. in the era's that they exist - there is no black market (the Pioneer Mission) or the Black Market doesnt deal in money and working mecha (Invid Invasion era Earth).


I agree to a point. I'd say that the 'black market' (there seems to be quite a few on Robotech Earth, such as the Silver Swift, and the Soviet-dominated one) would NOT be dealing in credits, thus my own spin that it was in Gold. I think that your dislike of Andy is blinding you to his possible argument (and you know that I often share your opinion here)

Remeber, though, that there is some market still for working mecha in even the Invid Invasion world. At least in SE Asia for the Mecha-Su-Dai tournaments, which appear quite well organised.

Also, I wouldn't put it past some enterprising stage 5 Invid to organise a 'protoculture buyback' scheme to take mecha from the hands of the humans.

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I'd get up in the morning and watch the sun rise over the yardarm of my sky-ship as the sails billowed in the breeze and the land slid by 300-odd metres below. I'd grasp the mahogany ship's wheel, turn her nose a few points back onto the line, and feel pity for all those poor bastards below who have to work for a living. - My idea of the good life in Rifts.

Steampunk SAMAS finally built!


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 3:39 am
  

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Lt Col Andy Reddson wrote:
In other words, 8 ½ month seems a little long to me. Probably half that, with many many more having been devilered elsewhere.)


It seems a bit long, because that isnt what I said. I said that (by my calculations with listed stuff) that they got out 8 ½ destroids a month NOT 8½ months for one destroid.

You might want to look at book 6: RotM at the Mecha Su-Dai section for ideas on how a Robotech world Black Market (post Invid) MIGHT run.

just an idea.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 10:08 am
  

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Lt Col Andy Reddson wrote:
Jefffar thinks nobody is going to sell their Mecha; They'd have to be desperate or stupid. But this does not factor in people who steal Mecha JUST to sell them. (People boost cars for that all the time, even though they don't have drivers licences.) There's ALWAYS a black market for anything you really want to get, if your pockets are deep enough. Mecha, in general, is probably the HIGHEST end of the black market your average merc could get their hands on, and merc likely would be the ONLY ones able to get their hands on it. (Other than high-tech bandits who just scrouge it from wrecks, that is.)


Okay then tell me how many people boost M-1A2s and AH-64Ds to sell on the black market?

We are talking a very expensive item, witha very, very limited clientele. Yeah if you got a mech for sale, you can name your price, but in realistic terms, who's going to be able to afford any price worth more than what having a useable mecha might be worth to you?

I still stand by that anybody who is going to sell a mecha, at an affordable price for your so called average merc, is going to be desperate or stupid. A mecha is a prime piece of power, and power is worh more than money.

A fully functional mecha would typically only be exchanged for something money can't buy.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 10:52 am
  

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Quote:
They probably were paid, and paid well, to manufacture the Mecha, and received space on the factory satellitte for free; Part of the contract.


Thats possible. I think, though, that the UEG would have the companies do the rehabilitation of the Factories (as well as dispersal of some of the automated lines and so forth to the colonies on Mars, Jupiter and elsewhere...maybe 10% of the total output of the Factory Satellite). That would save the UEG tons of money and time.

As for the black market.....

The Tv series shows that more than just the United Earth Forces proper had access to mecha. A Tomahawk that is seen blown in half in New Denver has US Army markings. Member states of the UEG could probably have mecha sold to them in an effort to build up reserves of troops (since member states probably had to commit manpower, money and materiel to the UEF ala the United Nations...but on a much greater basis than the current UN Charter allows).

Its not totally inconcievable that rogue states could end up with stolen mecha....its just improbable. More likely they would get the technical means of building mecha and access to Protoculture (especially post-Rain of Death) and begin building their own. Hacked up Battlepods with new legs, arms and micronized cockpits would be the most common mecha I would imagine. Old Destroids with different weapon systems are more likely (maybe left over from the end of the Anti-Unification War) than new models.

As for REF mecha...well...there could be some in the jungles of South America being field tested by the Army of the Southern Cross....probably the VF/B-5 Condor, VF-6 Alpha and VQ-6 Vandal Drone. How any of those would end up in the hands of black marketeers I don't know.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 9:26 pm
  

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Corsarius wrote:
Remeber, though, that there is some market still for working mecha in even the Invid Invasion world. At least in SE Asia for the Mecha-Su-Dai tournaments, which appear quite well organised.


Wow... I didn't think anyone would notice that. (I am minorly impressed.)

Corsarius wrote:
Also, I wouldn't put it past some enterprising stage 5 Invid to organise a 'protoculture buyback' scheme to take mecha from the hands of the humans.


Well, I doubt that... Probably just kill the pilot and TAKE the Mecha. Or DIP it...

Pox wrote:
It seems a bit long, because that isnt what I said. I said that (by my calculations with listed stuff) that they got out 8½ destroids a month NOT 8½ months for one destroid.


:lol: Heheheh. Well, there you go then. :oops:

Pox wrote:
You might want to look at book 6: RotM at the Mecha Su-Dai section for ideas on how a Robotech world Black Market (post Invid) MIGHT run.


And two! BRAVO ZULU!!

As for the pure cash, I didn't notice anything listed...

Jefffar wrote:
Okay then tell me how many people boost M-1A2s and AH-64Ds to sell on the black market?


Not many. Then again, the biggest gun bust in history was ATF agents posing as Communist Chinese arms merchants. On the list: Tanks. (No, I'm not making this up. I wish I were.)

Jefffar wrote:
We are talking a very expensive item, witha very, very limited clientele. Yeah if you got a mech for sale, you can name your price, but in realistic terms, who's going to be able to afford any price worth more than what having a useable mecha might be worth to you?


Drug lords, for one.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
I think, though, that the UEG would have the companies do the rehabilitation of the Factories.


Oh, ABSOLUTELY!!! And, to sweeten the deal, they would INVARIABLY demanded the "right" (who's playing who here?) to use "unassigned space" for private ventures.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
More likely they would get the technical means of building mecha and access to Protoculture (especially post-Rain of Death) and begin building their own.


Ala, moddies. (Maybe I should re-examine tha... Nevermind, I remember what happened LAST time.)

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 7:52 pm
  

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Lt Col Andy Reddson wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
Okay then tell me how many people boost M-1A2s and AH-64Ds to sell on the black market?


Not many. Then again, the biggest gun bust in history was ATF agents posing as Communist Chinese arms merchants. On the list: Tanks. (No, I'm not making this up. I wish I were.)

Jefffar wrote:
We are talking a very expensive item, witha very, very limited clientele. Yeah if you got a mech for sale, you can name your price, but in realistic terms, who's going to be able to afford any price worth more than what having a useable mecha might be worth to you?


Drug lords, for one.



Again, in both of these cases, the buyers (or alleged buyers) are far from your previously mentioned average merc. We're talkign large organizations with significant bank rolls.

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