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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 4:42 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:41 pm
Posts: 8
Hey all,

Can anyone tell me when the VF-1MS Veritech started service?

Did they exist after Zentraedi War or during?

Also the SAP Special Space fighter Veritech when did they come in?

Thx's


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 4:50 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Eat More Chicken
The "Super Veritech" SAP fighters were introduced while the SDF-1 was away in space. I am uncertain as of the date of construction, and I expect to get pounded by those who follow the new "canon" for Robotech for being inaccurate when I say that it appeared that the Super VFs were only used by the SDF-1's forces.

As for VF-1MS........ you can't mean the Metal Siren of Macross II, can you? That thing was introduced as a prototype DURING the Marduk invasion, and entered service in full immediately afterward.

EDIT: The SAP Special for Macross II doesn't appear to have a "special" date of service attached to it. Actually, if you watch the animation closely, you will find that the SAP Special and the SAP are THE SAME FIGHTER AND SAP PACK in different configurations. That being the case, and given that the UN Spacy of Macross II was already using "super packs" on their veritech fighters, it is safe to assume that both SAP models entered service at the same time as the VF-2SS.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 5:16 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:41 pm
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Well, your talking to somebody who don't know a lot about Robotech.

That's why I ask the way I did meaning was either aound after the Zentraedi War.

Okay your saying the Metal Siren VF-1MS Valkyrie II was way after the Zentraedi War.

I'm still not sure what you're saying on the SAP Veritech though. remember I'm not up on the Robotech thing and just trying to get some answers.

I'm just trying to find out if they were in service right after the Zentraedi War or during that conflict?

Thx's for you patiants


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 6:01 pm
  

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Rifts® Trivia Master

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the metal siren is part of Macross 2. Macross 2 is a unofficial sequal to Macross DYRL (do you remember love), which was a theatrical re-telling of the events in Super-dimensional Fortress MACROSS, which became the macross segment of robotech here in the states.


so the metal siren is NOT part of robotech.






now in MACROSS 2, the metal siren was developed 50 some years after its universes Zentreadi war. (which was seen in the Anime film Macross DYRL). in the MACROSS 2 universe, the Zentreadi are comprised of two "races". the Zentran, all males, and the Meltran, all females. prior to meeting the humans the two genders had been at war for eons, and it was only the mutual discovery of the Human race that brought them to peace. ironically, in the DYRL/Macross 2 universe, humanity is the genetically engineered decendants of the creators of both the zentran and meltran, and it was the humans discovery of the protoculture's (as this group was know.) ancient city that gave them the tools needed to unite the zentran and meltran. in this sunken city a song was found, which combined with the cultural contaminations from human interaction and the betrayal of Lord Bodolza of both the humans and the Zentran, caused the zentran and meltran to realize that culture was the most precious resource in the galaxys, and that it should not be lost.


then you get to the macross 2 setting, which is 50 some years later. an ancient enemy of the Protoculture has feound earth, and is intent on wiping it out.



(note: in japan, Protoculture is an ancient nation/race of "micron" humans, who seeded the universe with human life. kinda like "Galen's Ancestral Race" in Star Trek. the term protoculture in japan is what it means. proto-culture in latin means Before-Culture)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 6:24 pm
  

D-Bee

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
the metal siren is part of Macross 2. Macross 2 is a unofficial sequal to Macross DYRL (do you remember love), which was a theatrical re-telling of the events in Super-dimensional Fortress MACROSS, which became the macross segment of robotech here in the states.


so the metal siren is NOT part of robotech.






now in MACROSS 2, the metal siren was developed 50 some years after its universes Zentreadi war. (which was seen in the Anime film Macross DYRL). in the MACROSS 2 universe, the Zentreadi are comprised of two "races". the Zentran, all males, and the Meltran, all females. prior to meeting the humans the two genders had been at war for eons, and it was only the mutual discovery of the Human race that brought them to peace. ironically, in the DYRL/Macross 2 universe, humanity is the genetically engineered decendants of the creators of both the zentran and meltran, and it was the humans discovery of the protoculture's (as this group was know.) ancient city that gave them the tools needed to unite the zentran and meltran. in this sunken city a song was found, which combined with the cultural contaminations from human interaction and the betrayal of Lord Bodolza of both the humans and the Zentran, caused the zentran and meltran to realize that culture was the most precious resource in the galaxys, and that it should not be lost.


then you get to the macross 2 setting, which is 50 some years later. an ancient enemy of the Protoculture has feound earth, and is intent on wiping it out.



(note: in japan, Protoculture is an ancient nation/race of "micron" humans, who seeded the universe with human life. kinda like "Galen's Ancestral Race" in Star Trek. the term protoculture in japan is what it means. proto-culture in latin means Before-Culture)



Great info on the Metal Siren that 50 some years helps me a lot!

Buut what about the SAP Speial space Fighter Valkyrie?

Thx's


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 6:36 pm
  

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likely around 20 some years after Macross 2's zent war. when the VF-1 Valkyries went obsolete.


the Space Augmentation Pack would be a con-current development.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 7:01 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Eat More Chicken
My apologies for my initial response. I wasn't expecting a Macross II question.

In short, for the Macross II universe:

1. Macross: DYRL (aka Macross in Clash of the Bionoids)
The Super Veritech from the Robotech RPG (a VF-1 with an SAP pack) is seen in the very beginning of that movie.
2. Zentraedi war comes to an end after Minmei sings and the Zents and Melts stop fighting.
3. The Macross II book says that there are a number of small Zentraedi skirmishes, but the UNSpacy manages to win them all. There is some implied technology development lag as pretty much all of the Earth was blasted into a wasteland in the Zentraedi war.
4. At the time of the Macross II anime, the book says that the VF-2SS space valkyrie has been in service for about 20 years. I think. The standard SAP pack may have been modified once or twice in that time, but there is no indication of the SAP Special having a definate construction date.
5. The Metal Siren (VF-1MS) is introduced as a prototype at about the same time as the Marduk invasion fleet's arrival.
6. Due to one of the worst anime scenes ever, the Marduk rebel and kill their leader/patron deity, Lord Emperor Ingues. They then fly back off into space to try to forget it all.
7. The VF-1MS Metal Siren enters full production.


EDIT: But what do I care? I had Haydon IV blow it all up. :p

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:34 am
  

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It seems you've gotten the question answered already, but I'm throwing my 2 cents in anyway. Glitterboy2098 identified Macross II as happening 50 years after DYRL; he's about 20+ years off, the anime specifically says that its been 80 years since the Macross (the name of the SDF-1) crashed on Earth. However, the way Hibiki tells the story to Ishtar it almost sounds like the SDF-1 crash and Space War One/Zentraedi War happened within a year or two of each other. So personally, it's kinda hard to tell which is the more accurate date, based on that bit of info: 2079 or 2091. We do know that the last skirmish with the Zentraedi happened 10 years prior to M2, because that was mentioned repeatedly within the first 30 minutes or so, and by the fact that Hibiki actually remembers it and he's only 17 (I think the RPG states that it was 20 years ago that the last skirmish happened).

On a similar note: the way Variable fighters developed in the Macross II universe goes something like this:

1. The VF-1 In this case DYRL seems to imply that the SAPs for the VF-1 were developed either at the same time as the VF-1 or very shortly thereafter as you see Super VF-1s when the SDF-1 is out near Jupiter. Whereas the original Macross and Robotech doesn't have the Super VF-1s come out till shortly before the Rain of Death.

2. The VF-XX Zentran Fighter. The precursor to the VF-2 line and the first to incorporate Zentran technology.

3. The VF-2. This includes the VF-2J atmospheric fighter and the VF-2SS space fighter. Judging by the animation (this has been said before, I believe), it is also safe to assume that the VF-2SS was never meant to enter combat without the SAP, as we only see it without the SAP in the bumpers and the moon festival as part of an aerobatics display. Also, it is not clear if the VF-2SS SAP Special is a custom job for one person, is an upgraded version of the standard SAP, or is the standard SAP.

4. The VF-1MS Metal Siren. Isn't really introduced till shortly after the Marduk invasion begins at the moon festival, though its safe to assume that's been in development for a while.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:13 am
  

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Quote:
It seems you've gotten the question answered already, but I'm throwing my 2 cents in anyway. Glitterboy2098 identified Macross II as happening 50 years after DYRL; he's about 20+ years off, the anime specifically says that its been 80 years since the Macross (the name of the SDF-1) crashed on Earth.


seeing as i havent seen material on the DYRL/macross 2 timeline in over 2 years, and i haven't watched my copy of macross 2 in several months, 20 years off is actually not a bad margin of error. add the fact that in the DYRL timeline that it likely took 6-10 years to rebuild the macross, i'm only around 10 years off.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2004 2:28 pm
  

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Comment: TSC: The Year after Today (PBP play on the Stormwatch forums: http://thedeificnmi.com/maelstrom/index.php)
Quick Note to add to Dairugger:

The NTSB Super Packs for the VF-1 Valkyrie Veritech Armored Soldier-Fighter where in development during the origonal Valkyries prototype trials. Prior to the advent of the Macross: Zero series, this was still true - during Macross: Zero, they show Roy testing the "Armored Soldier" and "Booster Soldier" NTSB conformal Fuel and Weapons packages on the origonal Valkyrie prototype.

Production by Stonewell-Bellcom began shortly after survivors from the Macross Island incident where rescued by the SDF-1 after its jump to the far side of Pluto. The Engineering team that was saved, after helping re-design the interior of the SDF-1's Cargo bays and power systems to accomidate the city, went to work on a manufactoring complex. The Complex, though it could produce Valkyries at a limited rate, was ment to design spare parts, munitions, and the formerly Prototype NTSB Packs to augment the Macross's limited armory status and Valkyrie Defense Squadrons. It was easier to improve the quality of the Valkyrie's, then to simply build more of them, especially since the kill ratio was 8:1 - 8 Battlepods for every 1 Destroyed or Damage Valkyrie in the bay for repairs.

Prior to the Bombardment however, Stonewell-Bellcom was already involved in project "Nova", which it was coordinating, admitly rather defunctly, with Earth. From the Nova Project, the allegid "Jotun" was born, and then the Lightning III, and several other designs that would later come into production aboard the Macross, that we see in Macross & DYRL, but not in Robotech, for obvious reasons.

After the Bombardment, and the destruction of the Stonewell-Bellcom facilities and personel on Earth, which had also been producing the NTSB packs for nearly 8,000x the number of squadrons on Earth, then what the Macross had station aboard it (which is why most of the EDFS - Earth Defense Force Squadrons, where not equiped with them yet), the remaining Stonewell-Bellcom survivors on the Macross, went to work to reintiate the company, helping seed other companys like Shinshi, General-Galaxy, Mitsumada and 3-Star, and of course, conglomerating with ORTEC industries, who had build the ARMD Platforms and such, and survived the bombardment by not being on Earth, decided that: Though the NTSB Conformal Armor, Weapons and Fuel packages where nifty, and somewhat cost effective, the VF-1 was to limited to fight a war where the enemies numerical advantage was superflously to great for just the Valkyrie alone. So they redesigned the current NTSB packs with generation 2 suites to keep the thousands of Valkyries already in service, acting until enough replacements of the Lightning III where complete.

But then the Lightning III never got wide use after the dissaperance of the Megaroad-1 Missions (which oddly enough translates into what happend in the Sentinels with the SDF-3 - being that the Megaroad was the SDF-3 and all as far as Macross goes) - and so Stonewell turned its eyes in other directions for a while, and let Shinshi Aeronautic Industries have the contract for developing the Thunderbolt, and where happy with the design, especially after Max and Mirya put the 2 prototype to such incredible trials during M-1,2,and 3, which was from about 2012, to about 2018, the Zentraedi rebellion and uprising.

Now as far as Macross II goes - the SAP-Valkyrie SS went into design just after the war, and was completed just after the Zentraedi VF-XX was complete for use about 15 years from the end of Space War 1. Prior to that, the Icarus was designed, to suppliment Earths Squadrons by being a quasi-Transatmospheric craft, that could free up true Aerospace valkyries to engage outside Earths gravity well, while they handled the rest - it was cost effective cause that ment they didnt have to give Icarus pilots any real zero-G combat training for both the fighter's, and the soldier modes. This is what prompted the development of the VF-1MS Metal Siren - The Earth was starting to become very Anti-War, and very Anti-UN Spacy, that ment enrollment rates where dropping, and that translates into fewer combat pilots. Add that in with the fact their current fighter designs are entering near 60 to 70 years old, and that Zentraedi attacks havnt slacked off yet as was expected, and your CLG - combat Lost Grouping - Jumps catastrophically to nearly 40% expected casualties per battle: Frankly, thats unacceptable.

So how to fix this? Make an even STRONGER 1 Man-Fighter, that a Team of 3 can do as much damage as a small Corvette, or 2 conventional squadrons of even more expensive VF-2SS units, and add in the stylings of a New Pop Icon for people to rally behind - and not only does the UN Spacy get a new fighter? But new pilots to go with it, and public opinion that didnt consist of a Metro-Sexual Harikrishna Illiterate Zentran screaming over a loud speaker "LONG LIVE CULTUA!" to throngs of people who dont care what happens 1 way or another, in order to get people to wake up and realise: There is a war going on out there, and people are dieing, and we need your help, but arent allowed to actually ask you for it. 8-)

wow - thats a lot of data, I hope that helps your efforts to understand also.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:13 pm
  

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......wait, would Macross Zero have any impact whatsoever on Macross II? I thought Macross II was written out of the Macross continuity, completely and utterly?

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:39 pm
  

Adventurer

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Macross 2 is a seperate entitiy entirely from Macross 7 and Macross Plus, think of it as an alternate reality sequel to the original Macross. As far as Macross Zero since it happens before Macross, I'd say it would have the same effect on Macross 2 as it had on the rest of the series.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2004 5:58 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:41 pm
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Well, with all this information how can one go wrong, I thank everyone for there help.

It helps me greatly!!


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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:00 pm
  

Interesting, this information helps me also!


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:17 am
  

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Comment: TSC: The Year after Today (PBP play on the Stormwatch forums: http://thedeificnmi.com/maelstrom/index.php)
I should get Paladium to switch it from "Champion" to "Robotech/Macross Guru" at this rate - glad I could help, anything else you want to know? 8)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:34 am
  

Explorer

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Macross II is a direct sequel to Macross: Do You Remember Love?, which means that it is, in "the scheme of things" a movie-within-a-movie. It is a movie that characters in the Macross universe go to see at the theatre, just as DYRL was.

Therefore, neither DYRL or Macross II: Lovers Again is a "real" part of the Macross (or RT) timeline. Also, both DYRL and M2 were at one time considered an "alternate reality", but that was dropped again in favor of the "movie-within-a-movie".

At one point in Macross 7: Trash, you can see the theatre on the Macross 7 and the sign says "Now Playing: Macross: Do You Remember Love?". Kinda neat.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:58 am
  

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Comment: TSC: The Year after Today (PBP play on the Stormwatch forums: http://thedeificnmi.com/maelstrom/index.php)
They've always been fond of that concept - they do it with several concepts, like the Holographic game that Max and Mirya play? Notice how its always got a little mini rick and Minmei in it?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:04 pm
  

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Comment: Eat More Chicken
Tetsuya wrote:
At one point in Macross 7: Trash, you can see the theatre on the Macross 7 and the sign says "Now Playing: Macross: Do You Remember Love?". Kinda neat.


It's much more like a reminder that we probably shouldn't be taking the series' quite so seriously, if you ask me.

Afterall, the original Macross was actually supposed to be a parody of the genre, not a genre-definer (oops). Hence why many missiles looked like coke cans...

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:10 pm
  

Explorer

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just so as everyone knows, Macross 7: Trash is a Manga series, not animated.

It doesnt even involve the main characters of Macross 7, except periferally - its about a guy on the run from the Anti-UN/Mob.

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Unread postPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 8:16 am
  

Zerebus wrote:
The "Super Veritech" SAP fighters were introduced while the SDF-1 was away in space. I am uncertain as of the date of construction, and I expect to get pounded by those who follow the new "canon" for Robotech for being inaccurate when I say that it appeared that the Super VFs were only used by the SDF-1's forces.

As for VF-1MS........ you can't mean the Metal Siren of Macross II, can you? That thing was introduced as a prototype DURING the Marduk invasion, and entered service in full immediately afterward.

EDIT: The SAP Special for Macross II doesn't appear to have a "special" date of service attached to it. Actually, if you watch the animation closely, you will find that the SAP Special and the SAP are THE SAME FIGHTER AND SAP PACK in different configurations. That being the case, and given that the UN Spacy of Macross II was already using "super packs" on their veritech fighters, it is safe to assume that both SAP models entered service at the same time as the VF-2SS.


Zerebus,

So are you saying the SAP did exist in a regular Macross setting or are they fictional as the Metal Siren. I myself would like to know too. Another words even though we didn't see them in the series per say, were they there for the RDF to use when the Zentraedi conflict happened?


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 8:25 am
  

AlexanderDeath wrote:
Quick Note to add to Dairugger:

The NTSB Super Packs for the VF-1 Valkyrie Veritech Armored Soldier-Fighter where in development during the origonal Valkyries prototype trials. Prior to the advent of the Macross: Zero series, this was still true - during Macross: Zero, they show Roy testing the "Armored Soldier" and "Booster Soldier" NTSB conformal Fuel and Weapons packages on the origonal Valkyrie prototype.

Production by Stonewell-Bellcom began shortly after survivors from the Macross Island incident where rescued by the SDF-1 after its jump to the far side of Pluto. The Engineering team that was saved, after helping re-design the interior of the SDF-1's Cargo bays and power systems to accomidate the city, went to work on a manufactoring complex. The Complex, though it could produce Valkyries at a limited rate, was ment to design spare parts, munitions, and the formerly Prototype NTSB Packs to augment the Macross's limited armory status and Valkyrie Defense Squadrons. It was easier to improve the quality of the Valkyrie's, then to simply build more of them, especially since the kill ratio was 8:1 - 8 Battlepods for every 1 Destroyed or Damage Valkyrie in the bay for repairs.

Prior to the Bombardment however, Stonewell-Bellcom was already involved in project "Nova", which it was coordinating, admitly rather defunctly, with Earth. From the Nova Project, the allegid "Jotun" was born, and then the Lightning III, and several other designs that would later come into production aboard the Macross, that we see in Macross & DYRL, but not in Robotech, for obvious reasons.

After the Bombardment, and the destruction of the Stonewell-Bellcom facilities and personel on Earth, which had also been producing the NTSB packs for nearly 8,000x the number of squadrons on Earth, then what the Macross had station aboard it (which is why most of the EDFS - Earth Defense Force Squadrons, where not equiped with them yet), the remaining Stonewell-Bellcom survivors on the Macross, went to work to reintiate the company, helping seed other companys like Shinshi, General-Galaxy, Mitsumada and 3-Star, and of course, conglomerating with ORTEC industries, who had build the ARMD Platforms and such, and survived the bombardment by not being on Earth, decided that: Though the NTSB Conformal Armor, Weapons and Fuel packages where nifty, and somewhat cost effective, the VF-1 was to limited to fight a war where the enemies numerical advantage was superflously to great for just the Valkyrie alone. So they redesigned the current NTSB packs with generation 2 suites to keep the thousands of Valkyries already in service, acting until enough replacements of the Lightning III where complete.

But then the Lightning III never got wide use after the dissaperance of the Megaroad-1 Missions (which oddly enough translates into what happend in the Sentinels with the SDF-3 - being that the Megaroad was the SDF-3 and all as far as Macross goes) - and so Stonewell turned its eyes in other directions for a while, and let Shinshi Aeronautic Industries have the contract for developing the Thunderbolt, and where happy with the design, especially after Max and Mirya put the 2 prototype to such incredible trials during M-1,2,and 3, which was from about 2012, to about 2018, the Zentraedi rebellion and uprising.

Now as far as Macross II goes - the SAP-Valkyrie SS went into design just after the war, and was completed just after the Zentraedi VF-XX was complete for use about 15 years from the end of Space War 1. Prior to that, the Icarus was designed, to suppliment Earths Squadrons by being a quasi-Transatmospheric craft, that could free up true Aerospace valkyries to engage outside Earths gravity well, while they handled the rest - it was cost effective cause that ment they didnt have to give Icarus pilots any real zero-G combat training for both the fighter's, and the soldier modes. This is what prompted the development of the VF-1MS Metal Siren - The Earth was starting to become very Anti-War, and very Anti-UN Spacy, that ment enrollment rates where dropping, and that translates into fewer combat pilots. Add that in with the fact their current fighter designs are entering near 60 to 70 years old, and that Zentraedi attacks havnt slacked off yet as was expected, and your CLG - combat Lost Grouping - Jumps catastrophically to nearly 40% expected casualties per battle: Frankly, thats unacceptable.

So how to fix this? Make an even STRONGER 1 Man-Fighter, that a Team of 3 can do as much damage as a small Corvette, or 2 conventional squadrons of even more expensive VF-2SS units, and add in the stylings of a New Pop Icon for people to rally behind - and not only does the UN Spacy get a new fighter? But new pilots to go with it, and public opinion that didnt consist of a Metro-Sexual Harikrishna Illiterate Zentran screaming over a loud speaker "LONG LIVE CULTUA!" to throngs of people who dont care what happens 1 way or another, in order to get people to wake up and realise: There is a war going on out there, and people are dieing, and we need your help, but arent allowed to actually ask you for it. 8-)

wow - thats a lot of data, I hope that helps your efforts to understand also.


AlexanderDeath,

I would also like if possible to get your opinion to as too did the SAP exist as a real piece of Mecha or was it fictional as the Metal Siren veritech in Macross II. Obviously the Metal Siren can not be used in a normal Macross game but you say you Roy in a SAP one in the series, so that wouldimply they do exist in a regular Robotech setting.


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 8:56 am
  

Explorer

Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:01 am
Posts: 191
Location: Livonia, MI
To answer your question: no. The SAP is purely Macross-II fiction. Alex was most likely referring to the FAST Packs used by the Valkyrie's and other Variable Fighters in the Macross universe.

The "Super Veritech" seen in the Robotech RPG is just a VF-1 with the original, series 1 FAST armaments.

FAST stands for Fuel, Armor, and Sensor Tactical Packs.

for the most part they consist of conformal fuel tanks on the legs, arm armor/armaments, and the back-pack style booster/missile launcher.

There are a variety of them available after the original's made their debut in Space War One, many of which are backwards compatible all the way to the VF-1.

_________________
Colonel Tetsuya Nomura,
Chief of Veritech Operations,
Indochina Quadrant

Can't means "Can Not", as in, it is impossible.
Won't means "Will Not", as in, you do not want to, but can.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 12:04 pm
  

Tetsuya wrote:
To answer your question: no. The SAP is purely Macross-II fiction. Alex was most likely referring to the FAST Packs used by the Valkyrie's and other Variable Fighters in the Macross universe.

The "Super Veritech" seen in the Robotech RPG is just a VF-1 with the original, series 1 FAST armaments.

FAST stands for Fuel, Armor, and Sensor Tactical Packs.

for the most part they consist of conformal fuel tanks on the legs, arm armor/armaments, and the back-pack style booster/missile launcher.

There are a variety of them available after the original's made their debut in Space War One, many of which are backwards compatible all the way to the VF-1.


Tetsuya,

That answered my questions, it threw me for a loop when he said Roy was flying one.

Thank you


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