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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:16 am
  

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Champion

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Pretty much what it says? Was this some remnant of the war with the Supervision Army? I realize this is both a 'stupid question' and may require a lot of explanation so apologies are preemptively offered.

-STS

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:51 am
  

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slade the sniper wrote:
Pretty much what it says? Was this some remnant of the war with the Supervision Army? [...]

The Supervision Army doesn't exist in the Macross II OVA's version of the backstory, which is built on the DYRL backstory. The ancient Protoculture in Macross II's timeline were divided along gender lines after cloning tech effectively removed the need for biological reproduction, and the genders each created their own clone army to do their fighting for them in a literal war of the sexes that ultimately got out of hand and destroyed their civilization. In this version, the Zentradi's enemies are the Meltrandi... their female counterparts.

The Mardook are strongly implied to be the descendants of one of the groups of Protoculture who fled the collapse of their civilization and tried to start over with both sexes coexisting, like the group that briefly settled on Earth and used their genetic engineering technology to create early modern humans from the local homonids before the war edged their way again and they fled into space. The group that became the Mardook may have taken loyal Zentran and Meltran troops on their way out, or they may have created new ones after fleeing, we don't know precisely. The Mardook are noted to have superior technology to anything encountered among the Zentradi or Meltrandi, which is kind of a giveaway as to their identity.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:42 pm
  

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slade the sniper wrote:
Pretty much what it says? Was this some remnant of the war with the Supervision Army? I realize this is both a 'stupid question' and may require a lot of explanation so apologies are preemptively offered.

-STS


No explanation was given in the narrative itself. I assume the Marduk overcame the Zentradi much as Humans did in the original Macrosses, only the Marduk enslaved their Zentradi.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:38 pm
  

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ESalter wrote:
No explanation was given in the narrative itself.

Yup, one of those cases where nonessential backstory was displaced to the promotional materials and supplemental publications.

Macross II's director, Ken'ichi Yatagai, did a fair amount of hint-dropping about the Mardook's origins in interviews while the OVA was coming out in publications like Bandai B-Club Magazine.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:05 pm
  

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One could take that the Marduk take the place of the masters in that side-dimension of the org. macross storyline.

That they took control of a fleet by taking over their Factory Satellite....is another possibility.

OR maybe they are humans from another D that their leader turned them into a berserker race. (see the novel series for meaning of the term berserker. Not the Dictionary meaning.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:05 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
That they took control of a fleet by taking over their Factory Satellite....is another possibility.

If you found a Factory Satellite and took it over, or repaired it, you could make your own Zentran/Meltran fleet pretty easily. I like this idea as it just seems to fit better since all of their ships look similar to the old ships, but not exactly...

-STS

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:49 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
One could take that the Marduk take the place of the masters in that side-dimension of the org. macross storyline.

There really isn’t a direct analogue to the “Robotech Masters” in the Macross setting… and the idea doesn’t quite work for Macross II either.

You see, a huge part of the original Macross story depends on the Zentradi’s creators having vanished hundreds of thousands of years ago. The ancient Protoculture created the Zentradi for proxy warfare 500,000 years ago at the start of the great interstellar diaspora that would become the start of their Stellar Republic, but vanished from the galactic stage after an out-of-control civil war led to them losing control of the Zentradi. No Zentradi had had any contact with their absent creators in hundreds of thousands of years, which was why they were so thrown by finding Earth and discovering it was a planet of miclones who could repair things, who possessed technology that’d been lost to the Zentradi for eons, and who even understood the fragments of culture that the Zentradi had faithfully preserved from their long-vanished creators. They thought Earth was possibly an enclave of the Protoculture, and curiosity was what stayed their hand for most of the story.

Likewise, in Macross II, none of the MANY Zentradi living and working on Earth and serving in the UN Forces recognized the Mardook. The Mardook were mistaken for just another fleet of Zentradi until it was almost too late. Nobody’d ever seen anything quite like them, especially the advanced mind control technology they possessed and the way they controlled the Zentradi that they used through songs.

The OVA’s creators point to the Mardook being the descendants of a group of Protoculture who’d fled the collapse of their civilization, much like the group who (in DYRL?) created humans as part of their efforts to colonize Earth. That’s why the Mardook possess more advanced tech than the Zentradi or Meltrandi, why they have legions of Zentradi AND Meltrandi troops, and why they regard their culture as literally sacred.



drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
That they took control of a fleet by taking over their Factory Satellite....is another possibility.

Factory satellites in Macross are a bit different from Robotech’s take.

Y’see, the dubious quality translation used to make Robotech put a definite article where a definite article wasn’t in the original Japanese dialog. It wasn’t “THE” factory satellite, it was “A” factory satellite. Because of that translation goof, in Robotech that satellite was mistakenly presented as producing EVERYTHING the Boddole Zer fleet used.

In Macross, the typical Zentradi main fleet’s logistical backbone is made up of 20-50 factory satellites. Each factory satellite produces one, and only one, type of equipment for its assigned Zentradi main fleet. Some fleets have factory satellites that produce different models of mecha than others (which is why the Neld and Burado main fleets that Earth encountered in the 2030s had mecha that the Boddole Zer main fleet from 2009 didn’t), while some factory satellites have been destroyed in battle, leaving the equipment they once produced unavailable (this being the reason the Glaug battle pod is rare, and why thermonuclear reaction warheads are considered lost technology).

Even if you captured the factory satellites producing the clone soldiers themselves, they wouldn’t obey you because they’re programmed to follow a strict chain of command and strict regulations that prohibit them from interacting with miclones or the opposite sex except when ordered to. All told, they’d just kill you or capture you for interrogation and study.



slade the sniper wrote:
If you found a Factory Satellite and took it over, or repaired it, you could make your own Zentran/Meltran fleet pretty easily.

Not really, no… you’d need to capture every factory satellite supporting the fleet to produce all of the different equipment the fleet uses. If you did, you could produce as many ships and mecha as you like, but the clone troops being produced wouldn’t obey you because you’re not a mobile fortress’s commander or a member of the ancient Protoculture. You’d likely just end up having a bunch of giant clone soldiers rioting, only to discover you left an army’s worth of war material just their size sitting around for them to kill you with.

Capturing those factory satellites would let you reproduce the same equipment those Zentradi or Meltrandi were already using. It wouldn’t let you do what the Mardook have done, which is make technologically superior versions of those mecha and ships, and even superior versions of those troops themselves. To do that, you’d need to have a grasp of the technology rivaling that of their original creators… the ancient Protoculture.

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Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:52 pm
  

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Yeah....I try to leave macross ii as it's own thing.....

Now IF you wanted to incorporate it into robotech......well there was a faction called the disciples of zor. These could be the return of those that escaped/survived the masters out there somewhere.

That's about the onky thing you could do but again I try to leave it be.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:34 pm
  

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The Marduk are the Robotech Masters who escaped from Return of the Masters. They got Factory G-95 and have set about rebuilding.

They may also have gotten Mothership from the Sentinels adventure "Free For All" and/of the Robotech Factory from the REF Field Guide.

With those resources, rebuilding would be child's play.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:53 am
  

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as to the responces to my post
*1 I was talking in loose ideas as indicated by the "One could take..." phrasing. And mainly talking to the people who only know RT.
*2 I did do my phrasing correctly for someone who has been a fan of the Macross serise's for over 2 decades. As in taking over 'a fleet' by taking over their (that fleet's) factory. That there are multiple fleets is a part of the movie "Love, Do you remember?" and the "Macross II" mini-series.

Thor-kan, please present you own ideas as your own and not as statements of fact. I very well know that the marduk are not 'the masters' from the return of the masters (I own both editions of the RotM and the M2 books and the M2 VHS tapes with liner-notes.).

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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:11 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
Yeah....I try to leave macross ii as it's own thing.....

Now IF you wanted to incorporate it into robotech......well there was a faction called the disciples of zor. These could be the return of those that escaped/survived the masters out there somewhere.

That's about the onky thing you could do but again I try to leave it be.

I agree leave Macross II to its own thing, but if porting to Robotech I don't know if I'd go the DoZ route because we know so little about them. I think I would have the Marduk as a Zentreadi evolutionary offshoot alluded to by Leonard in the Bioroid Pilot autopsy and elements from Gloval and Dolza's Zentreadi "history".


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:21 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
(I own both editions of the RotM and the M2 books and the M2 VHS tapes with liner-notes.).

To be brutally frank, that doesn't really get you anywhere in terms of accurate information.

The US Renditions translation of the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA was good for the time it was made, but objectively speaking isn't very well done and contains a lot of inaccuracies. Likewise, the Palladium Books RPG is so wildly inaccurate despite the assistance of a volunteer "researcher" that almost every factoid and stat given in the five books is incorrect. Even the year the books give for the OVA's events is wrong.

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Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:35 pm
  

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Oh yeah those books while worked for what they were trying t do were WAY off the mark in accuracy on the level of the 1st ed Robotech books were....

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:57 am
  

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The deckplans books were really pretty though. With glossy colour they would have been absolutely amazing looking.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:12 am
  

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yeah nice books....crappy information accuracy for even then. Just watching the show you could see the human ships were WAY off scale.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:42 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
snip... Likewise, the Palladium Books RPG is so wildly inaccurate despite the assistance of a volunteer "researcher" that almost every factoid and stat given in the five books is incorrect. Even the year the books give for the OVA's events is wrong.

And M2 is totally seperate from all other of the PB games by licening agreements. Thus can't be mixed.

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Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:37 pm
  

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When publishing something you licensed the onus is on you to be accurate.

As for HG....they have zero say on Macross II

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Last edited by jaymz on Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:49 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
The deckplans books were really pretty though. With glossy colour they would have been absolutely amazing looking.

Yeah, that would've been nice... Dream Pod 9 did a real pretty job with the deck plans books. Shame about the actual content, but the presentation was lovely.





drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
However, when talking about RoboTech, what HG say goes. Since the TR Masters are a part of RoboTech. And M2 is totally seperate from all other of the PB games. Saying that the Marduk ARE the RTM is just obviuslly not canon.

As such, When you are saying an idea that is not canon please preface it by saying it is your idea/opinion/interpriation/....

And you were not even the 1st one to post the idea in this topic. :roll:

What the hell are you on about? I never said that or anything like it. :roll:

YOU were the one who started trying to equate the Mardook to the "Robotech Masters":
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
One could take that the Marduk take the place of the masters in that side-dimension of the org. macross storyline.


I was the one who pointed out TO YOU that it was not a viable comparison:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
There really isn’t a direct analogue to the “Robotech Masters” in the Macross setting… and the idea doesn’t quite work for Macross II either.

You see, a huge part of the original Macross story depends on the Zentradi’s creators having vanished hundreds of thousands of years ago.


The one who straight-up said the Mardook WERE the "Robotech Masters"... that was thorr-kan.
thorr-kan wrote:
The Marduk are the Robotech Masters who escaped from Return of the Masters. They got Factory G-95 and have set about rebuilding.


If you're going to post a snide response, at least post it to the right person, okay?



I stepped up and corrected YOUR incorrect information. You're not even spelling their name right. It's M-A-R-D-O-O-K. The katakana used is different from "Marduk", and even the artbooks helpfully spell it in English (see This is Animation Special #5: Macross II page 48. In case you've forgotten, MY answer to the OP's question was as follows:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:
Pretty much what it says? Was this some remnant of the war with the Supervision Army? [...]

The Supervision Army doesn't exist in the Macross II OVA's version of the backstory, which is built on the DYRL backstory. The ancient Protoculture in Macross II's timeline were divided along gender lines after cloning tech effectively removed the need for biological reproduction, and the genders each created their own clone army to do their fighting for them in a literal war of the sexes that ultimately got out of hand and destroyed their civilization. In this version, the Zentradi's enemies are the Meltrandi... their female counterparts.

The Mardook are strongly implied to be the descendants of one of the groups of Protoculture who fled the collapse of their civilization and tried to start over with both sexes coexisting, like the group that briefly settled on Earth and used their genetic engineering technology to create early modern humans from the local homonids before the war edged their way again and they fled into space. The group that became the Mardook may have taken loyal Zentran and Meltran troops on their way out, or they may have created new ones after fleeing, we don't know precisely. The Mardook are noted to have superior technology to anything encountered among the Zentradi or Meltrandi, which is kind of a giveaway as to their identity.


My answer summarizes several points from Bandai B-Club Magazine's interview with Macross II: Lovers Again director Ken'ichi Yatagai that was part of the magazine's multi-issue in-depth coverage of the OVA during its release.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:53 pm
  

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Monk

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I do apologize. Was thinking someone else responded.
My preivius post has been edited.

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