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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:12 am
  

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How would you guys & gals integrate Macross Delta, if you've even watched it?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:46 am
  

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Rathorc Lemenger wrote:
How would you guys & gals integrate Macross Delta, if you've even watched it?

As is generally the case with Macross's sequels, you don't... it's fundamentally incompatible with Robotech on pretty much every level.

Macross Delta is probably one of the most incompatible, given how much of its plot is dependent on references to events in previous Macross titles. In particular, it's dependent on aspects of those previous titles that are themselves fundamentally incompatible with Robotech's setting. Windermere IV's whole casus belli becomes impossible in the Robotech setting, where the Earth government ceases to exist in 2031, aliens were never a part of it, there was no Second Unification War, the Zentradi are extinct, and the ancient Protoculture doesn't exist. The ancient Protoculture themselves are a fundamental focal point of the plot, thanks to the Windermereans basing their war on Protoculture technology and a belief that they are the Protoculture's anointed successors, so the absence of an analogous faction in Robotech breaks the plot completely. The canonical absence of extrasolar colonization in Robotech also breaks Delta's setting, since that story is set over on the far side of the galaxy in a star cluster that was colonized in 2027 (the first, unusable colony ships in Robotech weren't available until c.2031). A bunch of character backstories are also dependent on references to Macross VF-X (Kaname), Macross VF-X2 (Grammier, Ernest, Messer), Macross Zero (Makina), Macross Dynamite 7 (Reina), etc., the VF-31 itself depends on a reference to Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy (as does Var syndrome itself), the existence of Tactical Sound Units depends on references to Macross 7 and Dynamite 7, and so on... (pretty much every character except maybe Ernest was born on a planet settled by an emigrant fleet).

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Last edited by Seto Kaiba on Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:56 am
  

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I can make it work but maaaaaan is it a bit convoluted in how I do it......

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:36 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
As is generally the case with Macross's sequels, you don't... it's fundamentally incompatible with Robotech on pretty much every level.

I agree with this, just don't do it. Though there certainly are ways to make it work that can get into varying degrees of convoluted territory as jaymz points out.

Seto wrote:
The canonical absence of extrasolar colonization in Robotech also breaks Delta's setting

But we know people where being born out in deep space (on robotech ships, reference NG#1). So while RT might not have "colonies" per say, it would simply require changing reference from a "colony" to "base" or "ship" or "fleet".

References in the show suggest Earth was out exploring before 2022 launch of the SDF-3. We have Carpenter's ship as home for 15 years, and potentially even earlier with the Masters surveying wreckage of ships 20LY from Earth (ships which are of ASC design) circa 2013.

I would add that it doesn't necessarily break Delta's setting per say, it all depends on WHERE in the (RT) TIMELINE Delta (or really any Macross Sequel) is placed. Some just can't be placed (like Macross Plus or Macross 2 due to the SDF-1). If you allow enough of a timeline gap between RT proper and the Macross Sequel(s) you want, you could allow various backstory issues to be resolved in many cases (not all).

Seto wrote:
the Zentradi are extinct,

True, but possibly not.

While Scott's statement is they are extinct, we know some Zentreadi still exist (Exedore, 2 hybrids, possibly Miryia) though all of them are the result of story continuation and maybe evidence of not adhering to the 85ep. As the Zentreadi procreate by cloning (suggested per dialogue IINM ep46), they could always make a come back.

That said, it is also possible there could be "evolutionary" offshoots of the Zentreadi. Statements by Gloval, Leonard, and Dana provided below at least allow for the possibility given the way evolution works. Weather those offshoots are still "zentreadi" is debatable of course, or even if they really exist (they haven't been used as story elements post 85ep AFAIK).

Gloval Ep31 (briefing scene) "...and so the great Robotech civilization collapsed cought in the cross fire of the fighting giants they had created and those giants evolved into the Zentraedi ..."
Leonard Ep45 (autopsy scene) "... these aliens or atleast their clones are nothing less than a barbaric strain of micronized Zentraedi who where scattered throughout the universe..."
Dana Ep45 (rejoins 15th in the city) "...they insist that the bioroid pilots are cloned from mutant Zentraedi ..."


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:26 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
The canonical absence of extrasolar colonization in Robotech also breaks Delta's setting

But we know people where being born out in deep space (on robotech ships, reference NG#1). So while RT might not have "colonies" per say, it would simply require changing reference from a "colony" to "base" or "ship" or "fleet".

... while you're not wrong about Robotech having people born aboard ships out in deep space, it's still kind of a story-breaker for Macross Delta.

The Brisingr globular cluster is a cluster of two dozen well-established colonized planets, and two major characters have backstories that involve tragedies specific to the colony planets they were born and raised on that figure prominently in the story. Messer Ihlefeld's whole reason for joining Xaos and Delta Flight was that he was traumatized by his hometown on Alfheim being wiped out in a huge Var riot that Walkure suppressed when Kaname was its lead singer, and that led directly to his secret romantic interest in her and his death protecting her on Al Shahal. Likewise, Walkure's team lead Kaname Buccaneer became a singer because she dreamed of ending the civil war on her home planet of Divide with her songs the way Minmay ended the First Space War, so that forms the basis for a lot of her character development. That main character Hayate Immelmann bounced around from colony to colony as a kid comes up fairly prominently in explaining his relationship with his father, an extremely important figure late in the story. (The Second Unification War, fought between pro- and anti-colonial autonomy factions, is also very important to the backstories of Ernest Johnson and King Grammier Neirich Windermere VI. Ernest fought for the anti- side and got a dishonorable discharge for his trouble, and King Grammier was a well-known hero of the war for the victorious pro- side.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
References in the show suggest Earth was out exploring before 2022 launch of the SDF-3. We have Carpenter's ship as home for 15 years, and potentially even earlier with the Masters surveying wreckage of ships 20LY from Earth (ships which are of ASC design) circa 2013.

Granted, but for Robotech there are canonically no civilians in space... apart from Minmei. That would be rather problematic for a cast consisting primarily of civilian employees of a civilian-owned conglomerate's entertainment and private security branches.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I would add that it doesn't necessarily break Delta's setting per say, it all depends on WHERE in the (RT) TIMELINE Delta (or really any Macross Sequel) is placed. Some just can't be placed (like Macross Plus or Macross 2 due to the SDF-1). If you allow enough of a timeline gap between RT proper and the Macross Sequel(s) you want, you could allow various backstory issues to be resolved in many cases (not all).

Also true, but at that point you're rewriting a pretty big part of the story vis a vis its relation to other events.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
the Zentradi are extinct,

True, but possibly not.

While Scott's statement is they are extinct, we know some Zentreadi still exist (Exedore, 2 hybrids, possibly Miryia) though all of them are the result of story continuation and maybe evidence of not adhering to the 85ep. As the Zentreadi procreate by cloning (suggested per dialogue IINM ep46), they could always make a come back.

Exedore was on the bridge of the Deucalion, standing next to Janice, and canonically the ship's entire crew were killed in the Neutron-S missile test.

Miriya's fate is unknown, but there's a decent-ish chance that she died when Edwards shot the SDF-3 to pieces since she and Max were too legally problematic to bring back.

Zentradi are clones, yeah, but in Robotech they don't seem to have any cloning systems left or individuals to clone... and it really wouldn't explain there being trillions of them in the galaxy, and whole other main fleets when Dolza's was supposed to be the only one.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:53 am
  

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Seto wrote:
Granted, but for Robotech there are canonically no civilians in space... apart from Minmei. That would be rather problematic for a cast consisting primarily of civilian employees of a civilian-owned conglomerate's entertainment and private security branches.

What you mean is that canonically no civilian named characters are ever presented. Yet all these people "born out in deep space" likely would be considered civilian family members until they formally enlisted. Do we ever get Ranks for the various Doctors (Nichols, Lang, Cochrane, etc), not to mention Lisa was planning on resigning her commission due to the baby (she eventually did anyway and became an ambasador) which suggests the option exists for other parents I would think, and if she resigns her commission wouldn't that make her a civilian?

Seto wrote:
Also true, but at that point you're rewriting a pretty big part of the story vis a vis its relation to other events.


I would also point out that Robotech integrated Megazone23 pt2 (even if only briefly), SDC: Southern Cross, and Mospedea into Robotech proper to continue their story version of Macross. So it might take some extensive work, but it could certainly be done. I guess it really depends on what level of integration of the Macross: (insert sequel of choice OR any existing show) one is seeking to bring in and what changes they are willing to make.

Seto wrote:
Exedore was on the bridge of the Deucalion, standing next to Janice, and canonically the ship's entire crew were killed in the Neutron-S missile test.

Miriya's fate is unknown, but there's a decent-ish chance that she died when Edwards shot the SDF-3 to pieces since she and Max were too legally problematic to bring back.

Point of clarification. When Scott MAKES the statement in 2043 the N-S missile test is roughly a year in the future (in the timeline), and Edwards betrayal IINM would be unknown to him (cut off in late 2042, Prelude IINM suggests 21st MD has already happened). So as far as Scott would know the Zentreadi are not 100% gone, because even Breetai and his squadron along with Exedore and Miryia (maybe) would be alive. Post TSC that could be an issue.

Miriya might still not be alive depending on one of Dana's lines in Ep37 that she cuts off when in Bowie's room ("Hell like my dad used to say before my mom-") would have been had it been completed (did Miriya die, run off, etc). Though it is implied Miriyia is alive in those same sources that have the Zentreadi still around when Scott's comment is made.

Seto wrote:
Zentradi are clones, yeah, but in Robotech they don't seem to have any cloning systems left or individuals to clone... and it really wouldn't explain there being trillions of them in the galaxy, and whole other main fleets when Dolza's was supposed to be the only one.


Are we sure there aren't any cloning systems left in Robotech (or just a lack of Protoculture and/or will to use them)? The Sizing Chambers are cloning chambers. We also don't know (IINM) where the Zentraedi are grown (RFS would be my guess, maybe even on ship). Are the Zentreadi all genetic duplicates of a group of donors (since there IS variation among them) OR is their genetics randomly assembled for the cloning machine?

As for OTHER Zentreadi fleets, there are micronized/mutant Zentreadi scattered throughout the universe (per dialogue). So those other Zentreadi factions in SDF:M universe just get shifted into Evolutionary Cousins to the Zentreadi. A bigger sticking point is the use of sizing chambers in SDF:M sequels vs Robotech for the Terran forces.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:16 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
What you mean is that canonically no civilian named characters are ever presented.

Even the RPG is explicitly clear that there are no civilians in space... there are only soldiers and military dependents (the children of soldiers).


ShadowLogan wrote:
Do we ever get Ranks for the various Doctors (Nichols, Lang, Cochrane, etc), [...]

They wear military uniforms, though their tendency to wear lab coats over said uniform obscures the rank insignia on their shoulder boards much of the time.

Louie's rank boards are clearly visible, and both dialog and his published line art indicate he holds the rank of Commander.


ShadowLogan wrote:
[...] not to mention Lisa was planning on resigning her commission due to the baby (she eventually did anyway and became an ambasador) which suggests the option exists for other parents I would think, and if she resigns her commission wouldn't that make her a civilian?

As is so often the case with SF writers, the writers of Prelude seem to have confused retirement and resigning one's commission. Mind you, it's not clear if it's even possible to permanently leave the service when there is explicitly no alternative form of employment available and resources are tight. In practical terms, all she did was switch from one administrative role in the military to another as she represents the interests of the UEEF on the Sentinels council not the nonexistent United Earth Government.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I would also point out that Robotech integrated Megazone23 pt2 (even if only briefly)

Part 1, not Part 2... and, if you recall, it was an unqualified disaster that kept almost none of the original story and was of such poor quality that its general release was cancelled outright.

My point is, like last time, that you CAN force it to fit by completely butchering the entire story and setting... but at that point, what you're integrating isn't the series anymore.


ShadowLogan wrote:
So as far as Scott would know the Zentreadi are not 100% gone, because even Breetai and his squadron along with Exedore and Miryia (maybe) would be alive. Post TSC that could be an issue.

Scott knew that the only surviving Zentradi were the ones in Breetai's unit, Exedore, and maybe Miriya. That's a tiny population as it is, probably sufficiently so to be functionally extinct if there were few (if any) female Zentradi remaining. Even if his implication wasn't 100% correct at the time, events conspired to make it so after the fact as Breetai and his unit died aboard the Regent's flagship and Exedore died in the Neutron S missile test. (Of course, we know this is real life - or rather, the lawyers - writing the plot. The Zentradi were too risky to continue using in future works with Big West watching HG like a hawk, so they were summarily killed off in Prelude to dodge the question of where they were.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
Are we sure there aren't any cloning systems left in Robotech (or just a lack of Protoculture and/or will to use them)? The Sizing Chambers are cloning chambers.

Even in Sentinels it was stipulated that they had virtually no working chambers remaining and no way to repair ones that broke down. That doesn't appear to have changed.

(And yes, the sizing chambers were cloning systems in Macross too... that's where RT got the idea.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
As for OTHER Zentreadi fleets, there are micronized/mutant Zentreadi scattered throughout the universe (per dialogue).

It's an assumption in-series, not a fact. They make a LOT of incorrect assumptions to that effect while trying to suss out the identity of the Bioroid pilots.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:43 am
  

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Rathorc Lemenger wrote:
How would you guys & gals integrate Macross Delta, if you've even watched it?

Signed,
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President of Lemenger Biologics Unlimited.

I never really had a problem with Macross, basically just ignore anything "Protoculture" related. The mecha are all nuclear fusion based, and have limited fuel for thrust, but given it's fusion, you've got plenty of power for everything else. All the rules are essentially the same, you're just substituting protoculture for reaction mass. As for Var Syndrome, however you handle the Minmay Attack, is what I'd recommend. Since it's music that has such a similar effect in both cases, what works for one, can work for the other, mechanically speaking. Me, I'd go for a save vs psionics/insanity. Not sure what rules you'd need other than that really. Maybe I'll have to re-watch Delta (oh such a hard life!)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:05 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
there are only soldiers and military dependents (the children of soldiers).

IMHO those dependents then would be considered civilians.

Seto wrote:
As is so often the case with SF writers, the writers of Prelude seem to have confused retirement and resigning one's commission. Mind you, it's not clear if it's even possible to permanently leave the service when there is explicitly no alternative form of employment available and resources are tight. In practical terms, all she did was switch from one administrative role in the military to another as she represents the interests of the UEEF on the Sentinels council not the nonexistent United Earth Government.


I agree in practical terms Lisa simply just switched roles since she is effectively still working in the (military) govt.

There is another aspect to consider, what would happen to soldiers who received injuries not leading to death, but would prevent them from functioning in productive roles. We don't know enough about the state of Terran Cybernetics beyond the vague comment by Louie in 2029.

Seto wrote:
Part 1, not Part 2... and, if you recall, it was an unqualified disaster that kept almost none of the original story and was of such poor quality that its general release was cancelled outright.

Part 1, my bad. Yes I know it was only integrated for a brief period of time, the point is that it was done.

My point though is that extensive work has been done in the past, yes we get into issues like butchering the story, but that is likely to happen when you attempt to mash unrelated finished stories together into a single unit. The butchering in this case though can be minimized if we place it far enough into the future to allow various story references to be believable in occurring, without necessarily exploring them.

Seto wrote:
Scott knew that the only surviving Zentradi were the ones in Breetai's unit, Exedore, and maybe Miriya. That's a tiny population as it is, probably sufficiently so to be functionally extinct if there were few (if any) female Zentradi remaining. Even if his implication wasn't 100% correct at the time, events conspired to make it so after the fact as Breetai and his unit died aboard the Regent's flagship and Exedore died in the Neutron S missile test. (Of course, we know this is real life - or rather, the lawyers - writing the plot. The Zentradi were too risky to continue using in future works with Big West watching HG like a hawk, so they were summarily killed off in Prelude to dodge the question of where they were.)

The thing is we know the Zentreadi don't need M/F pairings to reproduce (per dialogue it is unheard of among the zentreadi). And we know the Zentreadi can mate with humans (3 examples per dialogue, and 2 characters seen. Can add another one or two potentially depending on how you view Dana's PC vision and Hirano from the Novels). All of this at least allows for Zentreadi to make a come back (in universe, out of universe we have the legality matter).

Scott is shown to be wrong, if he's not counting these Zentreadi he knows should be alive. Could there be others? (given probable future of RT, and legality, not a question that can be answered easily). Though if we toss out TSC/Sent. he could be right.

Seto wrote:
It's an assumption in-series, not a fact. They make a LOT of incorrect assumptions to that effect while trying to suss out the identity of the Bioroid pilots.

I'm not sure, I agree about the Bioroid pilot aspect. However the question would have to be considered WHERE Leonard got this idea that micronized zentreadi are scattered across the universe.

Given we are trying to explain how there could be a contradictory "Zentreadi" presence by including Macross Sequels, this might give us an angle to allow its use in RT with only minor superficial changes that is based on dialogue.

Though even w/o the Macross sequel aspect, I think the evolutionary Zent-cousins aspect could be used as it is at least suggested in the 85ep dialogue to help flesh out possible aliens other than the Sentinels/Invid. Such an approach would require extensive work (and we know HG isn't likely to put in the effort).


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:51 pm
  

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torjones wrote:
I never really had a problem with Macross, basically just ignore anything "Protoculture" related. The mecha are all nuclear fusion based, and have limited fuel for thrust, but given it's fusion, you've got plenty of power for everything else. All the rules are essentially the same, you're just substituting protoculture for reaction mass. As for Var Syndrome, however you handle the Minmay Attack, is what I'd recommend. Since it's music that has such a similar effect in both cases, what works for one, can work for the other, mechanically speaking. Me, I'd go for a save vs psionics/insanity. Not sure what rules you'd need other than that really. Maybe I'll have to re-watch Delta (oh such a hard life!)

Completely throwing out the story does work, but then you're not really integrating Macross Delta anymore... just its design works.

(Pretty much SOP for the RT RPG tho...)




ShadowLogan wrote:
IMHO those dependents then would be considered civilians.

They're military dependents, so technically I guess they're noncombatants rather than civilians... but it can be safely assumed that when they're talking about the absence of civilians they mean adults (non-dependents), as the military is described as the only source of employment period.

It'd be a virtually impossible fit with Macross Delta, since the plot hinges on the existence of a major interstellar government that has been around since the war with the Zentradi, a megacorp that was founded in 2010, and a setting with dozens of inhabited worlds with a civilian population of over eight billion.


ShadowLogan wrote:
There is another aspect to consider, what would happen to soldiers who received injuries not leading to death, but would prevent them from functioning in productive roles. We don't know enough about the state of Terran Cybernetics beyond the vague comment by Louie in 2029.

All things considered, have we ever actually seen someone sustain serious but nonfatal injuries in the UEEF?

Jumping from a lack of cybernetics to straight-up Ghost in the Shell grade cybernetic technology would be another sticking point, come to think of it. There aren't any overt instances of cybernetic augmentation in Delta but the previous titles established that it's pretty well-established tech and the lead Var syndrome researcher Aisha Blanchett was established to be a cyborg in Macross 30.


ShadowLogan wrote:
And we know the Zentreadi can mate with humans (3 examples per dialogue, and 2 characters seen. Can add another one or two potentially depending on how you view Dana's PC vision and Hirano from the Novels). All of this at least allows for Zentreadi to make a come back (in universe, out of universe we have the legality matter).

Not enough to make it not a plot hole in adapting any Macross title though... 2-3 individuals is not a sustainable population by any stretch of the imagination, and even if it were it'd take aeons for them to achieve the tens if not hundreds of millions of Zentradi citizens living under the New Unification Government (never mind the trillions of clone soldiers and thousands of main fleets still abroad and occasionally putting in appearances). You're certainly not going to get that far in just two generations, as one main character (Mirage) is explicitly Max and Milia's granddaughter (via their daughter Miranda) and her struggles with feelings of inadequacy vis a vis the family legacy and reputation is the driving force behind her character development (as well as being the reason she quit the New UN Forces and went to Xaos).


ShadowLogan wrote:
Scott is shown to be wrong, if he's not counting these Zentreadi he knows should be alive. Could there be others? (given probable future of RT, and legality, not a question that can be answered easily). Though if we toss out TSC/Sent. he could be right.

Scott's not wrong, per se... if we look at the Zentradi's long-term prospects with an unsustainably small population that was in an environment where it was subject to considerable attrition. Breetai seems to be down to around a platoon or two of Zentradi by 2043, all of whom appear to be male.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I'm not sure, I agree about the Bioroid pilot aspect. However the question would have to be considered WHERE Leonard got this idea that micronized zentreadi are scattered across the universe.

The UEDF and UEEF made a LOT of unfounded assumptions about the universe... though some of it can be attributed to Robotech's writers making it up as they went, often with little to no actual thought for the consequences (as HG itself grudgingly admits).


ShadowLogan wrote:
Given we are trying to explain how there could be a contradictory "Zentreadi" presence by including Macross Sequels, this might give us an angle to allow its use in RT with only minor superficial changes that is based on dialogue.

I'm not sure that would really fix things though, since particularly in Delta a major plot point is the various species in the galaxy having been created by the ancient Protoculture... including humans (a plot point Robotech jossed in its version), and you'd have a hard time selling the other species (Ragna's hyper-evolved fish men, Voldor's cat people, etc.) as mutated Zentradi as they're often anatomically only outwardly similar.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:37 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
torjones wrote:
I never really had a problem with Macross, basically just ignore anything "Protoculture" related. The mecha are all nuclear fusion based, and have limited fuel for thrust, but given it's fusion, you've got plenty of power for everything else. All the rules are essentially the same, you're just substituting protoculture for reaction mass. As for Var Syndrome, however you handle the Minmay Attack, is what I'd recommend. Since it's music that has such a similar effect in both cases, what works for one, can work for the other, mechanically speaking. Me, I'd go for a save vs psionics/insanity. Not sure what rules you'd need other than that really. Maybe I'll have to re-watch Delta (oh such a hard life!)

Completely throwing out the story does work, but then you're not really integrating Macross Delta anymore... just its design works.

(Pretty much SOP for the RT RPG tho...)

I apologize for not making myself clear, I mean that one should ignore the Robotech interpretation of protoculture. Stick with the Macross setting. There really aren't many mechanical rules that need to change. Watch the series a few more times so you know the setting as well as an obsessed fan, and you're good to go. Maybe print out a few images to share with the players to illustrate the differences between the settings, uniforms, the Idols, the mecha, that sort of thing. I mean, it's a really universal gaming system, and the two settings are very closely related, so not much change needs to happen.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:41 pm
  

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torjones wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
torjones wrote:
I never really had a problem with Macross, basically just ignore anything "Protoculture" related. The mecha are all nuclear fusion based, and have limited fuel for thrust, but given it's fusion, you've got plenty of power for everything else. All the rules are essentially the same, you're just substituting protoculture for reaction mass. As for Var Syndrome, however you handle the Minmay Attack, is what I'd recommend. Since it's music that has such a similar effect in both cases, what works for one, can work for the other, mechanically speaking. Me, I'd go for a save vs psionics/insanity. Not sure what rules you'd need other than that really. Maybe I'll have to re-watch Delta (oh such a hard life!)

Completely throwing out the story does work, but then you're not really integrating Macross Delta anymore... just its design works.

(Pretty much SOP for the RT RPG tho...)

I apologize for not making myself clear, I mean that one should ignore the Robotech interpretation of protoculture. Stick with the Macross setting. There really aren't many mechanical rules that need to change. Watch the series a few more times so you know the setting as well as an obsessed fan, and you're good to go. Maybe print out a few images to share with the players to illustrate the differences between the settings, uniforms, the Idols, the mecha, that sort of thing. I mean, it's a really universal gaming system, and the two settings are very closely related, so not much change needs to happen.


I've done MOST of the mecha work to make this happen....(have not done Varja yet though)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:40 pm
  

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torjones wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Completely throwing out the story does work, but then you're not really integrating Macross Delta anymore... just its design works.

(Pretty much SOP for the RT RPG tho...)

I apologize for not making myself clear, I mean that one should ignore the Robotech interpretation of protoculture. Stick with the Macross setting. There really aren't many mechanical rules that need to change. Watch the series a few more times so you know the setting as well as an obsessed fan, and you're good to go. Maybe print out a few images to share with the players to illustrate the differences between the settings, uniforms, the Idols, the mecha, that sort of thing. I mean, it's a really universal gaming system, and the two settings are very closely related, so not much change needs to happen.

Not gonna lie... I was expecting the other way around, as has been the standard for Robotech RPG fanworks for as long as such things have existed.

That said, I think my point remains largely valid. It's basically an Either-Or condition. You're throwing out the heart and soul of one of the two shows to make it fit with the other.

In terms of pure game mechanics, there isn't that much work that needs to be done to adapt the Robotech RPG to play in the Macross setting. There are a few technological game-changers which complicate matters like active radar stealth, energy converting armor, ablative anti-beam coatings, MDE weaponry, and so on, but nothing insurmountable. There are a couple different schools of thought about stuff like spiritia warfare and biological fold waves, but nothing insurmountable in game terms. I should know as, in my capacity as one of the top English-speaking Macross experts, I've been helping several different people with homebrew Macross stats for various game systems.

IMO, the biggest problem with attempting to any kind of crossover or merger involving Macross and Robotech is in the stats themselves.

If the stats are anything like accurate, then the Macross mecha are mostly horrifying game-breakers by Robotech's standards and the Robotech mecha are comically underpowered joke machines by Macross standards. "Unbalanced" doesn't even begin to cover it. The Alpha is more or less equivalent in performance and capability to a VF-0, so if you bring one to the 2040s era in Macross you've got 1/6th to 1/8th the armor of other VFs, 1/10th the firepower, and a tiny fraction of the flight performance. Take something like a YF-29 into the Robotech universe and it's more or less indistinguishable from having godmode since you've got 30+ times the armor of the next best mecha, a pinpoint barrier, anti-beam coating, and infinite ammo weapons that can one-shot small warships. The scale of power and capability is just way too different between the two settings. 'bout the only units I've found that survive being ported back and forth without ruining things are the Ride Armors/Cyclones and EX-Gear suits.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:15 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
torjones wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Completely throwing out the story does work, but then you're not really integrating Macross Delta anymore... just its design works.

(Pretty much SOP for the RT RPG tho...)

I apologize for not making myself clear, I mean that one should ignore the Robotech interpretation of protoculture. Stick with the Macross setting. There really aren't many mechanical rules that need to change. Watch the series a few more times so you know the setting as well as an obsessed fan, and you're good to go. Maybe print out a few images to share with the players to illustrate the differences between the settings, uniforms, the Idols, the mecha, that sort of thing. I mean, it's a really universal gaming system, and the two settings are very closely related, so not much change needs to happen.

Not gonna lie... I was expecting the other way around, as has been the standard for Robotech RPG fanworks for as long as such things have existed.

That said, I think my point remains largely valid. It's basically an Either-Or condition. You're throwing out the heart and soul of one of the two shows to make it fit with the other.

In terms of pure game mechanics, there isn't that much work that needs to be done to adapt the Robotech RPG to play in the Macross setting. There are a few technological game-changers which complicate matters like active radar stealth, energy converting armor, ablative anti-beam coatings, MDE weaponry, and so on, but nothing insurmountable. There are a couple different schools of thought about stuff like spiritia warfare and biological fold waves, but nothing insurmountable in game terms. I should know as, in my capacity as one of the top English-speaking Macross experts, I've been helping several different people with homebrew Macross stats for various game systems.

IMO, the biggest problem with attempting to any kind of crossover or merger involving Macross and Robotech is in the stats themselves.

If the stats are anything like accurate, then the Macross mecha are mostly horrifying game-breakers by Robotech's standards and the Robotech mecha are comically underpowered joke machines by Macross standards. "Unbalanced" doesn't even begin to cover it. The Alpha is more or less equivalent in performance and capability to a VF-0, so if you bring one to the 2040s era in Macross you've got 1/6th to 1/8th the armor of other VFs, 1/10th the firepower, and a tiny fraction of the flight performance. Take something like a YF-29 into the Robotech universe and it's more or less indistinguishable from having godmode since you've got 30+ times the armor of the next best mecha, a pinpoint barrier, anti-beam coating, and infinite ammo weapons that can one-shot small warships. The scale of power and capability is just way too different between the two settings. 'bout the only units I've found that survive being ported back and forth without ruining things are the Ride Armors/Cyclones and EX-Gear suits.



Yeah I am one of the people he's helped as well (I cannot possibly tell you the number of hours Seto and I spent discussing mecha capabilities over msn or facebook messenger )....he is not wrong. My rewrites for Robotech specifically do not represent that disparity (The only Macross proper VF I have added was the VF-0 as the inclusion is not all that hard to pull off compared to all the later generation VFs) and I found myself basically doubling to tripling the various mecha's capabilities in RT in order for it to make sense to even have them exist. Mind you, you can even see there's some inconsistencies even in the 2e RPG...the VF-1 frankly outperforms the Alpha in all respects (except a slight increase on the Alphas MDC compared to the VF-1) and can also match or exceed it in firepower. With that said I've yet to take on Spiritia or Varja stuff.

Now have I added Macross Proper to Robotech? I have but not the way some might think. Then again the way I added Macross Proper also included The Mechanoids and Rifts Manhunter as part of the whole convoluted timeline of events so......

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:40 am
  

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Seto wrote:
It'd be a virtually impossible fit with Macross Delta, since the plot hinges on the existence of a major interstellar government that has been around since the war with the Zentradi, a megacorp that was founded in 2010, and a setting with dozens of inhabited worlds with a civilian population of over eight billion.

RT TSC ends circa 2045-ish (at least if the other 2 OVAs where produced correct), Macross Delta is what 20+ years later (IF we don't adjust dates in either case, we could move it closer or farther out farther out seems to require less work). Sure it requires some tweaking (these entities are not as old, colonies being established, etc), but nothing that need be shattering.

Seto wrote:
All things considered, have we ever actually seen someone sustain serious but nonfatal injuries in the UEEF?

Off hand no, but there are other aspects to consider with people unfit to serve that go beyond combat injury. People are born with defects that would seriously impair if not prevent them from serving. This would also mean that the military would have to take over some jobs that they don't normally do (or at least one thinks of them doing). Civilian Colonization efforts might have been suspended (Angel-Class), but the UEEF was building new ships for colonization (Ark Angel Class). So when where the efforts put on hold specifically, and where was the Ark Angel going to get its colonists (or put another way, why work on the AA if you've got no colonists).

Seto wrote:
Jumping from a lack of cybernetics to straight-up Ghost in the Shell grade cybernetic technology would be another sticking point, come to think of it. There aren't any overt instances of cybernetic augmentation in Delta but the previous titles established that it's pretty well-established tech and the lead Var syndrome researcher Aisha Blanchett was established to be a cyborg in Macross 30.

Without details on what Louie refers to as "old cyborgs" we don't know what the level of cybernetic technology in Robotech is comparable to for Terrans. Then there are aspects of the Masters cybernetic technology that the UEEF might have access to via Tirol.

Seto wrote:
Not enough to make it not a plot hole in adapting any Macross title though... 2-3 individuals is not a sustainable population by any stretch of the imagination

Agree, but in Robotech does it have to be just Max/Miriyia or could there be other lesser knowns (aside from the Novel Leonard/Seloy) at least for the purposes of integration. I mean if we forced to make changes to the backstory of one show, it would be fair to make changes to another to make them work together (preferably in either case not in story shattering ways)

Seto wrote:
Scott's not wrong, per se... if we look at the Zentradi's long-term prospects with an unsustainably small population that was in an environment where it was subject to considerable attrition. Breetai seems to be down to around a platoon or two of Zentradi by 2043, all of whom appear to be male.

The problem is that the Zentreadi per Robotech Dialogue by the Masters (ep46) "It is obvious this species is not Zentraedi their system of mating and reproduction are unheard of among the Zentraedi". IF the Zentreadi try to do it the "natural" way for humans, then yes, but if they can do it their "natural" way (which apparently is not the human way) then there is a good chance they could experience a population explosion. The main issue I guess is how "natural" Zentreadi reproduction works.

Seto wrote:
I'm not sure that would really fix things though, since particularly in Delta a major plot point is the various species in the galaxy having been created by the ancient Protoculture... including humans (a plot point Robotech jossed in its version), and you'd have a hard time selling the other species (Ragna's hyper-evolved fish men, Voldor's cat people, etc.) as mutated Zentradi as they're often anatomically only outwardly similar.


Who said anything about using the possible existence of Zentreadi Evolutionary Cousins to explain away non-Zentreadi aliens in this endevour? I am just saying use the possibility of Zentreadi Evolutionary Cousins to handle specific Zentreadi related issues related to adapting Macross to Robotech. If we go by Sentinels there are 5 races in the Galaxy we did not know about by name (make up the Sentinels) or any real indication from the 85ep, and if we expand to pre-production work for the Sentinels there could be even more. So having non-human and non-Zentreadi aliens would not be setting breaking.

As far as Robotech is concerned the Masters only created the Zentreadi, we don't know of any other "races" they created AFAIK.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:55 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
Yeah I am one of the people he's helped as well (I cannot possibly tell you the number of hours Seto and I spent discussing mecha capabilities over msn or facebook messenger )....he is not wrong. My rewrites for Robotech specifically do not represent that disparity (The only Macross proper VF I have added was the VF-0 as the inclusion is not all that hard to pull off compared to all the later generation VFs) and I found myself basically doubling to tripling the various mecha's capabilities in RT in order for it to make sense to even have them exist. Mind you, you can even see there's some inconsistencies even in the 2e RPG...the VF-1 frankly outperforms the Alpha in all respects (except a slight increase on the Alphas MDC compared to the VF-1) and can also match or exceed it in firepower.

That was a bit part of the reason Robotech's official canon explicitly established that Robotech's VF-1 ran on nuclear fusion instead... it was an attempt to establish that the Alpha was a more advanced fighter even though it was outperformed in almost every respect by the VF-1.





ShadowLogan wrote:
RT TSC ends circa 2045-ish (at least if the other 2 OVAs where produced correct), Macross Delta is what 20+ years later [...]

Macross Delta is set in 2067, though the primary events that set the plot in motion go back to 2060 (and allegedly 2059) and the secondary events go back to 2051 and 2027.


ShadowLogan wrote:
[...] Sure it requires some tweaking (these entities are not as old, colonies being established, etc), but nothing that need be shattering.

There's a limit to how much you can tweak before the story starts breaking down.

For instance, Mirage Jenius's whole character arc is built on her being the 18 year old granddaughter of the legendary aces Maximilian and Milia Jenius. You can't shade it out more than a decade or so given the ages of Max and Milia's seven (eight) daughters. Likewise, Windermere IV's plot depends on having fought a war and seceded from the New Unification Government seven years earlier after over three decades as a New Unification Government member world with King Grammier being in his prime during the Second Unification War. Delta is much more interconnected with other Macross titles than is usual for a main Macross series, so the story can't be tweaked very much without breaking it.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Off hand no, but there are other aspects to consider with people unfit to serve that go beyond combat injury. People are born with defects that would seriously impair if not prevent them from serving.

Are we sure about that? The UEEF strikes me as a rather utilitarian place that would probably encourage termination of a pregnancy with defects severe enough to prevent them living a normal life due to not having the infrastructure to provide long-term care for the disabled. Either that or their medical technology is even more advanced than it appears (they can apparently heal broken bones in the space of an hour or so) and they can correct defects on the genetic level before birth. I'd prefer the latter, but Robotech does tend to be a world half empty.


ShadowLogan wrote:
This would also mean that the military would have to take over some jobs that they don't normally do (or at least one thinks of them doing). Civilian Colonization efforts might have been suspended (Angel-Class), but the UEEF was building new ships for colonization (Ark Angel Class). So when where the efforts put on hold specifically, and where was the Ark Angel going to get its colonists (or put another way, why work on the AA if you've got no colonists).

As there doesn't appear to have been a civilian space agency, the UEEF appears to have been shouldering the burden of space exploration all alone.

The evident plot holes surrounding the Robotech official canon's retconned-in space emigration program are exactly that... plot holes introduced by Tommy Yune's attempt to "Macross-ize" Robotech's MOSPEADA-based story going forward to make it more marketable. You can't fault the theory at least, copying successful franchises in the hopes of improving their appeal to a younger audience that really couldn't give a damn about the franchise otherwise. Didn't work, but the theory was sound at least.

The Ark Angel-class really doesn't make a lick of sense for exactly the reason you identified. Why build colony ships when you have 0 civilians to go set up a colony somewhere? The only reason they exist in-story is to be an ersatz Macross-class and fill the same role the SDF-1 did as a ship fleeing an alien armada with a crew of refugees from the devastating first strike.

Mind you, we don't know how long it would've taken to actually finish building them as only the one was in flyable condition and even then key systems weren't properly installed yet. It could've been years or decades before they were finished and ready to transport the liberated slave population of Earth to colonize other planets.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Without details on what Louie refers to as "old cyborgs" we don't know what the level of cybernetic technology in Robotech is comparable to for Terrans. Then there are aspects of the Masters cybernetic technology that the UEEF might have access to via Tirol.

Humanity in Robotech doesn't seem to have adopted any alien technology beyond what it reverse-engineered from the SDF-1... the evidence racism (speciesism?) they had towards aliens might have a lot to do with that.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Agree, but in Robotech does it have to be just Max/Miriyia or could there be other lesser knowns (aside from the Novel Leonard/Seloy) at least for the purposes of integration. I mean if we forced to make changes to the backstory of one show, it would be fair to make changes to another to make them work together (preferably in either case not in story shattering ways)

Unless there are hundreds of thousands of Zentradi hiding offscreen in defiance of a fairly large plot point from the Sentinels arc, it doesn't really work.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The problem is that the Zentreadi per Robotech Dialogue by the Masters (ep46) "It is obvious this species is not Zentraedi their system of mating and reproduction are unheard of among the Zentraedi". IF the Zentreadi try to do it the "natural" way for humans, then yes, but if they can do it their "natural" way (which apparently is not the human way) then there is a good chance they could experience a population explosion. The main issue I guess is how "natural" Zentreadi reproduction works.

Given that "clone army" is the Zentradi's hat in both universes, wouldn't their natural way be cloning? The cloning technology the UEEF doesn't seem to have anymore?


ShadowLogan wrote:
Who said anything about using the possible existence of Zentreadi Evolutionary Cousins to explain away non-Zentreadi aliens in this endevour? I am just saying use the possibility of Zentreadi Evolutionary Cousins to handle specific Zentreadi related issues related to adapting Macross to Robotech. If we go by Sentinels there are 5 races in the Galaxy we did not know about by name (make up the Sentinels) or any real indication from the 85ep, and if we expand to pre-production work for the Sentinels there could be even more. So having non-human and non-Zentreadi aliens would not be setting breaking.

Did'ja forget the Zentradi were the ancient Protoculture's first creation in Macross? That fact, along with the fact that all sentient humanoid life in the galaxy was created by the Protoculture at the height of their Stellar Republic, is pretty crucial to Macross Delta's plot. Particularly in connection with Windermere IV's leadership pushing a belief that their people are the chosen inheritors of the ancient Protoculture rather than earlier creations like the humans or Zentradi.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:53 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Did'ja forget the Zentradi were the ancient Protoculture's first creation in Macross? That fact, along with the fact that all sentient humanoid life in the galaxy was created by the Protoculture at the height of their Stellar Republic, is pretty crucial to Macross Delta's plot. Particularly in connection with Windermere IV's leadership pushing a belief that their people are the chosen inheritors of the ancient Protoculture rather than earlier creations like the humans or Zentradi.


Don't forget the Protodevlin as well......

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:02 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
As there doesn't appear to have been a civilian space agency, the UEEF appears to have been shouldering the burden of space exploration all alone.

ALUCE is specifically identified as a Civilian outpost on the Moon before it was converted in the 2RW and remained so into the 3rd per dialogue statements. AotSC even mentions other CIVILIAN outposts on the Moon related to colonization (of that particular body).

A separate Civilian Space Agency could exist then. Like a lot of issues being covered here, it is really anyone's guess on the details when it comes to RT.

Seto wrote:
The evident plot holes surrounding the Robotech official canon's retconned-in space emigration program are exactly that... plot holes introduced by Tommy Yune's attempt to "Macross-ize" Robotech's MOSPEADA-based story going forward to make it more marketable.

While I agree to an extent the extra-solar aspect is a plot hole issue of their own making, intra-solar aspect could be supported from the 85ep as we know of at least one Civilian Outpost in the Solar System circa 2029-30, Mars is established (Prelude, Reinhardt in the N-S missile council use meeting mentions "our colonies on the Moon, Mars, and the rest of the universe). Mars could even be supported as a site in the 85ep, not sure about the Moon.

Seto wrote:
Humanity in Robotech doesn't seem to have adopted any alien technology beyond what it reverse-engineered from the SDF-1... the evidence racism (speciesism?) they had towards aliens might have a lot to do with that.

In 85ep proper and ignoring other works? For the most part Yes (Scott identifies Bioroids in the wreckage, that might suggest Bioroid use). Though that is a by product of Robotech's original creation process and the current people in charge not putting a whole lot of thought into things (giving us huge plot holes).

Bringing the mess that is TSC and other works (aside from 85ep)? No. Shadow Technology (along with Syncro-Cannons) was alien technology not from the SDF-1. The UEEF also developed the Bioroid Interceptor (granted for allied Zentreadi/Tirolian use apparently) using technology related to Bioroids (see AotSC pg93). In the 1E Sentinels RPG the RAT-1 Pegasus uses Praxian Technology (might not apply to 2E RPG, don't have Marines)

Seto wrote:
Given that "clone army" is the Zentradi's hat in both universes, wouldn't their natural way be cloning? The cloning technology the UEEF doesn't seem to have anymore?

Yes. Though the question does have to be considered why the UEEF doesn't have it any more. The likely answer is they don't have the Protoculture to spare for such an effort (and the logistics of feeding the giants I would think rule it out to).

Seto wrote:
Did'ja forget the Zentradi were the ancient Protoculture's first creation in Macross? That fact, along with the fact that all sentient humanoid life in the galaxy was created by the Protoculture at the height of their Stellar Republic, is pretty crucial to Macross Delta's plot. Particularly in connection with Windermere IV's leadership pushing a belief that their people are the chosen inheritors of the ancient Protoculture rather than earlier creations like the humans or Zentradi.


Which doesn't require the Zentreadi in Robotech to be the originators of those other races. Remember the RT-Zentreadi are supposed to be the creation of the Robotech Masters, not the other way around. The Robotech Masters could take up the mantle in that era, other options exist that are more contrived (Haydon, DoZ, unknown race, etc).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:50 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
ALUCE is specifically identified as a Civilian outpost on the Moon before it was converted in the 2RW and remained so into the 3rd per dialogue statements. AotSC even mentions other CIVILIAN outposts on the Moon related to colonization (of that particular body).

Formerly civilian outposts. They were explicitly taken over by the military during the 2nd Robotech War and remained military installations thereafter.


ShadowLogan wrote:
A separate Civilian Space Agency could exist then.

For one, that's not space exploration those are just mining and resource processing facilities.

For two, they were established in an era where the military was explicitly running pretty much EVERYTHING from planetary defense down to food distribution. It's very unlikely that there was any kind of civilian space agency in that period. (This, of course, isn't counting the fact that the United Earth Government was allegedly largely for show after the 1st Robotech War, with the military making the actual decisions.)

Explaining the sudden transition from there being no government and the military running everything to a strong civilian government that keeps the military on the shortest of leashes would be a really hard sell in integrating the two shows. By in large, emigration fleets in Macross were under civilian authority first and foremost with the most senior officer in the fleet answering to the elected civilian authorities. When the military got unseemly ideas about running things, the idiots who made a play for power ended up dead or dishonorably discharged and a new civilian oversight authority was instituted to keep the military on the shortest of leashes.


ShadowLogan wrote:
While I agree to an extent the extra-solar aspect is a plot hole issue of their own making, intra-solar aspect could be supported from the 85ep as we know of at least one Civilian Outpost in the Solar System circa 2029-30, Mars is established (Prelude, Reinhardt in the N-S missile council use meeting mentions "our colonies on the Moon, Mars, and the rest of the universe). Mars could even be supported as a site in the 85ep, not sure about the Moon.

Are they really colonies, though? There are no civilians in space, and these installations are all under the military's exclusive control and populated by soldiers and the children thereof. If we're being honest with ourselves, isn't that just the base's private married quarters?


ShadowLogan wrote:
Bringing the mess that is TSC and other works (aside from 85ep)? No. Shadow Technology (along with Syncro-Cannons) was alien technology not from the SDF-1. The UEEF also developed the Bioroid Interceptor (granted for allied Zentreadi/Tirolian use apparently) using technology related to Bioroids (see AotSC pg93). In the 1E Sentinels RPG the RAT-1 Pegasus uses Praxian Technology (might not apply to 2E RPG, don't have Marines)

A point of order, the Bioroid Interceptor is not used by humans.

Also, only a handful of people are aware in-setting that shadow technology is not a human development. (Even so, it's not clear whether the Haydonites simply handed over data on the principles and let Edwards figure it out himself or if they actually gave him the tech, so it may technically be a flawed human development.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
Yes. Though the question does have to be considered why the UEEF doesn't have it any more. The likely answer is they don't have the Protoculture to spare for such an effort (and the logistics of feeding the giants I would think rule it out to).

The most likely explanation seems like the one that was used in the Sentinels story arc, where they had only a few remaining systems after Khyron's revolt and those broke down over time with the UEEF having no adequate means of repairing them.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Which doesn't require the Zentreadi in Robotech to be the originators of those other races. Remember the RT-Zentreadi are supposed to be the creation of the Robotech Masters, not the other way around. The Robotech Masters could take up the mantle in that era, other options exist that are more contrived (Haydon, DoZ, unknown race, etc).

Yeah, the point being that you can't have the Zentradi be creations of the Robotech Masters without opening a big damn plot hole in Delta's story. It actually creates a pretty big problem for the majority of Robotech's races since the Protoculture in Macross are the creators of all humanoid life in the galaxy and the Zentradi were their first creation. Can't have someone creating the Zentradi after the Zentradi were created before them, y'dig?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:22 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
[T]he VF-1 frankly outperforms the Alpha in all respects (except a slight increase on the Alphas MDC compared to the VF-1) and can also match or exceed it in firepower.

To be fair, the Alpha is a smaller, more specialised planet attack fighter, while the Valkyrie is more all-purpose. If we're going by the RPG stats (I wouldn't, but if we were), the alpha has better armor and, by some standards, better speed and firepower.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:15 am
  

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Seto wrote:
Formerly civilian outposts. They were explicitly taken over by the military during the 2nd Robotech War and remained military installations thereafter.

Agree that is what happened to it. However if there are Civilian Outposts on the Moon at pone point in time, it means there could be other Civilian Outposts we have not heard about also being setup.

And ALUCE is specifically called out in AotSC as being related to Colonization "established to manage native resources for early lunar colonization."

Seto wrote:
Are they really colonies, though? There are no civilians in space, and these installations are all under the military's exclusive control and populated by soldiers and the children thereof. If we're being honest with ourselves, isn't that just the base's private married quarters?

I guess it comes down what your definition of a "Colony" IS and if it is shared by the author.

I know they paint the picture as no civilians in space, but frankly I don't think it works without some civilian presence in space. That presence might be closely tied to the military such that they are effectively one, but they still almost have to exist (if for no other reason than maintaining the population).

Seto wrote:
A point of order, the Bioroid Interceptor is not used by humans.

Also, only a handful of people are aware in-setting that shadow technology is not a human development. (Even so, it's not clear whether the Haydonites simply handed over data on the principles and let Edwards figure it out himself or if they actually gave him the tech, so it may technically be a flawed human development.)

Bioroid Interceptor is cast that way in the RPG, but if you look at text in Prelude (Datafiles) or AotSC they really don't say it is exclusive to the Zentreadi/Tirolians (which is supported possibly by Bioroids Scott sees in NG#2 but we aren't shown). And even humans can use it in the RPG (said to be rare in the BI text, but the Battloid Ace OCC at the time could only really take Condor or Bioroid). The main point though is the Bioroid Interceptor design was developed by the UEEF Humans using technology not from the SDF-1.

I agree there are potential issues with lumping Shadow Technology into this category, but it is still technology they have developed/exploited that is alien in orgin and not from the SDF-1. Even if the bulk of people don't know, or there are questions relating to how much is developed on its own the originating sources for its inception (Haydonites and Invid) ARE alien.

Seto wrote:
Yeah, the point being that you can't have the Zentradi be creations of the Robotech Masters without opening a big damn plot hole in Delta's story. It actually creates a pretty big problem for the majority of Robotech's races since the Protoculture in Macross are the creators of all humanoid life in the galaxy and the Zentradi were their first creation. Can't have someone creating the Zentradi after the Zentradi were created before them, y'dig?

I think this gets to the heart of the issue.

When Adapting an external story (in this case a Macross sequel) and integrate it with another story (in this case Robotech) Changes to one/both are going to be necessary I don't think you can get away from that. The degree of changes one is willing to make are likely to vary from person to person. We know changes are necessary, just look at what they did to SDC:SC or GCM or MZ23p1 to make them work together with SDF:M to make RT (similarly we can see it with Voltron).


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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:03 pm
  

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ESalter wrote:
jaymz wrote:
[T]he VF-1 frankly outperforms the Alpha in all respects (except a slight increase on the Alphas MDC compared to the VF-1) and can also match or exceed it in firepower.

To be fair, the Alpha is a smaller, more specialised planet attack fighter, while the Valkyrie is more all-purpose. If we're going by the RPG stats (I wouldn't, but if we were), the alpha has better armor and, by some standards, better speed and firepower.


Except no it is the UEEFs all purpose superiority fighter not planetary attack fighter.

The Alpha is faster marginally flying in Gerwalk and Battloid modes otherwise the VF-1 outperforms it. It does also have more MDC.

Fire power? Do NOT get me started on how the Alpha at it's size carries 60 SRMs yet the female power armour at 4 times the size only carries 120 mini missiles (that are utterly useless at the combat speeds we see in the show, they SHOULD be SRMs as well) but as published it essentially MATCHES the missile firepower of the FMPA (bull#### is what that is). VF-1 is vastly more versatile, add on the Super system and it can far exceed the Alpha.

Gunpod not even a comparison.

Head/nose laser are the same.

Combat performance the VF-1 has an autododge and matches in other aspects.

Frankly aside from the mdc boost it is like they just copy pasted the 1e stats for the Alpha. (1d4x10 per burst on it's gunpod? Really?)

Ask me to choose and I will choose the VF-1 every time and the fact they try to make the Alpha out to be the better higher tech machine is honestly a joke.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:34 pm
  

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ESalter wrote:
jaymz wrote:
[T]he VF-1 frankly outperforms the Alpha in all respects (except a slight increase on the Alphas MDC compared to the VF-1) and can also match or exceed it in firepower.

To be fair, the Alpha is a smaller, more specialised planet attack fighter, while the Valkyrie is more all-purpose. If we're going by the RPG stats (I wouldn't, but if we were), the alpha has better armor and, by some standards, better speed and firepower.

Per the Robotech official canon, the Alpha is supposed to be the same type of multirole strike fighter the VF-1 is and was its direct replacement. The whole reason it was established that the earlier gen mecha used fusion was a bass-ackwards attempt by Robotech's creative staff to establish that the Alpha did in fact have some aspect of its design that wasn't outclassed by the VF-1.

The RPG had to take some considerable liberties, both NERFing the VF-1's performance and giving the Alpha a buff, in order to justify the Alpha existing at all. For example, the VF-1's UUM-7 missile packs (that the RPG calls "MLOP" for some reason) are downgraded to mini-missiles despite using the exact same model of missile that's an SRM in the Super Pack's stats.

With correctly scaled stats the disparity between the two is enormous and significantly favors the VF-1 with 3x the Alpha's armor, 7-10x its firepower, etc.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I think this gets to the heart of the issue.

When Adapting an external story (in this case a Macross sequel) and integrate it with another story (in this case Robotech) Changes to one/both are going to be necessary I don't think you can get away from that. The degree of changes one is willing to make are likely to vary from person to person. We know changes are necessary, just look at what they did to SDC:SC or GCM or MZ23p1 to make them work together with SDF:M to make RT (similarly we can see it with Voltron).

That's rather close to the point that I was making at the outset.

Can you integrate Macross Delta or any other Macross sequel into Robotech? No.

Why not? Because the differences between their respective settings and stories are so many and so extreme that when all is said and done you're throwing out so much material that what you're integrating isn't the series, it's just the designs and maybe a vague outline of the story at most.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:47 pm
  

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In earth's past there have been plenty of military colonies with large civilian populations, so the two are not mutually exclusive.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:32 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
In earth's past there have been plenty of military colonies with large civilian populations, so the two are not mutually exclusive.

Very true, but not at all applicable to the Robotech side of this equation for the reasons previously stated.

Canonically, in Robotech, there is no civilian presence in space after the 2nd Robotech War ended. The UEDF had seized control of the civilian installations in the Sol system and converted them into military bases late in the Second Robotech War. The UEEF only took one civilian with them into deep space and did so unknowingly (Lynn Minmei was a stowaway). Even the RPG asserts that, for people who were born and/or live out in space, military service is virtually all they know and that they're funneled into the armed forces at a young age to replace losses sustained by the UEEF.

In Macross, yeah there's military colonies with large civilian populations. Shammy Milliome, one of the SDF-1 bridge operators, moved to one on the moon after retiring from the New UN Forces to live with her husband and by 2045 had had 11 children there.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:40 am
  

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jaymz wrote:
ESalter wrote:
jaymz wrote:
[T]he VF-1 frankly outperforms the Alpha in all respects (except a slight increase on the Alphas MDC compared to the VF-1) and can also match or exceed it in firepower.

To be fair, the Alpha is a smaller, more specialised planet attack fighter, while the Valkyrie is more all-purpose. If we're going by the RPG stats (I wouldn't, but if we were), the alpha has better armor and, by some standards, better speed and firepower.


Except no it is the UEEFs all purpose superiority fighter not planetary attack fighter.

Arguable. In the animation, we only see part of the second and third Earth reclamation forces.

jaymz wrote:
The Alpha is faster marginally flying in Gerwalk and Battloid modes otherwise the VF-1 outperforms it. It does also have more MDC.

The RPG doesn't specifically list speeds for the Armored Veritech Alpha (i.e., an Alpha with a Beta), but at forty-five kilometers the Beta goes over 8,000 kph. And the RPG doesn't mention acceleration or working mass.

jaymz wrote:
Fire power? Do NOT get me started on how the Alpha at it's size carries 60 SRMs yet the female power armour at 4 times the size only carries 120 mini missiles (that are utterly useless at the combat speeds we see in the show, they SHOULD be SRMs as well) but as published it essentially MATCHES the missile firepower of the FMPA (bull#### is what that is).

I don't know why you're accusing me of "[getting you} started"; or using profanity; or talking about Zentradi mecha, which have nothing to do with the Alpha or the Valkyrie that I can see. Are you saying the RPG is a bad source? I agree with that.
jaymz wrote:
VF-1 is vastly more versatile...

Arguable; what do you mean by "versatile"?
jaymz wrote:
...add on the Super system and it can far exceed the Alpha.

The Alpha has better armor and better firepower.

jaymz wrote:
Gunpod not even a comparison.

The GU-11 is somewhat better on a per-shot basis, but to be fair, the Alpha's gun is much smaller. If Invid have less armor than Zentradi mecha, then that might not be a disadvantage.

jaymz wrote:
Head/nose laser are the same.

Combat performance the VF-1 has an autododge and matches in other aspects.

Well, that's Palladium game rules; I don't believe the Valkyrie should be that much better.

jaymz wrote:
Frankly aside from the mdc boost it is like they just copy pasted the 1e stats for the Alpha. (1d4x10 per burst on it's gunpod? Really?)

If you're saying the Palladium numbers are bad I completely agree.

jaymz wrote:
Ask me to choose and I will choose the VF-1 every time

The Valkyrie has worse armor, worse firepower, and no planetary attack ability.
jaymz wrote:
and the fact they try to make the Alpha out to be the better higher tech machine is honestly a joke.

The Alpha has better armor, better firepower, and can take missions the Valkyrie can't.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:26 am
  

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Seto wrote:
That's rather close to the point that I was making at the outset.

Can you integrate Macross Delta or any other Macross sequel into Robotech? No.

Why not? Because the differences between their respective settings and stories are so many and so extreme that when all is said and done you're throwing out so much material that what you're integrating isn't the series, it's just the designs and maybe a vague outline of the story at most.


Actually I think the answer is a firm maybe, but it depends on just what the person doing the integration is willing to change, the specific sequel, what they are really after, and the level/medium of integration (are we integrating them at the RPG or Show level). Not everyone is going to accept every justification to make X from Macross (or other) work in Robotech (or other) even tweaking interpretation of RT Y so that X can work.

In order for this to work though some changes have to be made, that is going to be unavoidable. When integrating independent stories to form a single cohesive story we know changes have to occur, just look at the 3 that make up RT proper (and the 4th that didn't last very long and it had 2 versions IINM) or the ones that made up Voltron. Even just in translation there can be differences. Moving from mediums can also produce differences between the story. It seems unlikely to expect Macross or any other property to be immune to this.

Now Delta comes with a lot of baggage (M0, M+, M7, MF), so if one has already integrated these works into RT then Delta's work just got a lot easier. If you start from Delta you've essentially done the work to bring those other works in but you have a lot more work to do. In order to bring MD (or any Msequel in) you are going to have to change some Macross references to RT ones in order for it to appear to be an extension of the Robotech story. Some of those changes probably aren't going to amount to much, but others will likely be more jarring and might require moving from a Macross centric point to a new independent point created for RT if a RT centric point doesn't exist that maintains the premise/spirit of the story point. It might also require some reinterpretation/change to RT to make it work (ex. Zentreadi), though I do agree there are somethings that don't work well if at all (ex. M+ and the SDF-1).

ESalter wrote:
The Alpha has better armor, better firepower, and can take missions the Valkyrie can't.

And the Valkyrie can execute missions, officially at least, that the Alpha can't without assistance that the VF-1 doesn't need. Personally I think the Beta makes a better successor to the VF-1 overall than the Alpha.

jaymz wrote:
Fire power? Do NOT get me started on how the Alpha at it's size carries 60 SRMs yet the female power armour at 4 times the size only carries 120 mini missiles (that are utterly useless at the combat speeds we see in the show, they SHOULD be SRMs as well) but as published it essentially MATCHES the missile firepower of the FMPA (bull#### is what that is). VF-1 is vastly more versatile, add on the Super system and it can far exceed the Alpha.

If the VF-1 is allowed to bring in its augmentation systems though (Super) then we have to consider the Alpha's augmentation systems (Beta).

Assuming 2 Minis = 1 SRM in term of firepower (in the RPG), the Super VF-1 would have equivalent of 30SRMS (trading in heavy missiles for 15shot mini) +46 SRMs=76SRM equivlanet (an R variant would have slightly more). An Alpha/Beta would have 60SRMs+16SRMs=76 SRMS BEFORE we even consider hardpoints, bombbay, or the blocked missiles. Stock VF-1 then might have equivalent of 30SRMs to the stock Alpha's 60 SRMs (and the Alpha has mini missiles to). By the Infopedia the Beta's 6 hardpoints are a match for the VF-1's 4 hardpoints in terms of what they can carry. The firepower edge here really does go to the Alpha when properly matched. And this assumes the Alpha doesn't have undocumented hardpoints (as seen in model kits and some lineart).

As for the FPA... As for show depictions, you could give the missiles a starting speed equal to the FPA (how it would work in the real world). If we use the show depictions we know that not everything translates between depiction and how palladium (and HG even) have stated them out (case in point the Logan's weapons). Really to get a show level destructiveness that seems to have been done for Macross Saga but not TRM or NG, you have to double or triple the damage of main mecha guns.

Spoiler:
I have a T/W ratio estimation project based on the animation I plan on doing soon for the VF-1, Logan, AGAC, Alpha, and Beta, I did a few test samples awhile back using the Alpha and lets just say those test samples when compared to the VF-1's written specs... it doesn't look good for the stock VF-1 or even the Super VF-1. I'm currently reviewing the series for scenes to analyze as I couldn't think of any episodes to use for the VF-1 or AGAC, and I have a long list for the Alpha and Beta (Logan having so few episodes to review I'm not worried about missing something).


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:55 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
In order for this to work though some changes have to be made, that is going to be unavoidable. When integrating independent stories to form a single cohesive story we know changes have to occur, just look at the 3 that make up RT proper (and the 4th that didn't last very long and it had 2 versions IINM) or the ones that made up Voltron.

While this is superficially correct, you missed that this demonstrates my point precisely... in order to integrate two independent stories like that, the setting and story of one of them is going to have to be totally thrown out. This is exactly what happened to Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross when it was adapted into Robotech. That was the only way they could make it fit with the much less severely edited Macross due to their incompatible settings.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Spoiler:
I have a T/W ratio estimation project based on the animation I plan on doing soon for the VF-1, Logan, AGAC, Alpha, and Beta, I did a few test samples awhile back using the Alpha and lets just say those test samples when compared to the VF-1's written specs... it doesn't look good for the stock VF-1 or even the Super VF-1. I'm currently reviewing the series for scenes to analyze as I couldn't think of any episodes to use for the VF-1 or AGAC, and I have a long list for the Alpha and Beta (Logan having so few episodes to review I'm not worried about missing something).

Forgive me for saying so, but this seems like pure wishful thinking considering that both the OSM's creators and Robotech's official canon generally agree that the VF-1 outclasses the Alpha, Beta, and so on in that regard (and most others).





ESalter wrote:
Arguable. In the animation, we only see part of the second and third Earth reclamation forces.

Not arguable. Explicitly stated.


ESalter wrote:
The RPG doesn't specifically list speeds for the Armored Veritech Alpha (i.e., an Alpha with a Beta), but at forty-five kilometers the Beta goes over 8,000 kph. And the RPG doesn't mention acceleration or working mass.

Why would the Beta figure into the comparison when the Beta is not standard equipment for the Alpha under any circumstances? :-?


ESalter wrote:
Arguable; what do you mean by "versatile"?

... I'm not sure it's "arguable" if there's no evidence to the contrary.

The Alpha's armaments are entirely fixed, it has no payload options to speak of. Compare that to the VF-1 that can take air superiority, interceptor, attacker, and light bomber roles with the versatility offered by its wing pylons. The VF-1's also got a vastly superior flight profile in fighter mode, being 41.6% faster at altitude, having a significantly higher service ceiling, a much higher thrust-to-weight ratio, thrust vectoring, and overall vastly superior aerodynamics. (The RPG takes this into bizarre territory by also making the VF-1 the only mecha capable of taking long-range missiles.)


ESalter wrote:
The Alpha has better armor and better firepower.

Only for its missiles, and only then because the Alpha's stats were buffed and the VF-1's NERFed so that the Alpha wouldn't become a nonsensical downgrade. Even RT's official specs (never mind the OSM) indicate the VF-1's MLOPs are supposed to be holding SRMs.

The better armor part is also somewhat debatable as the VF-1R's armor is comparable (and the RPG's MDC assignments are entirely arbitrary).


ESalter wrote:
Well, that's Palladium game rules; I don't believe the Valkyrie should be that much better.

Ironically, the reverse is actually true... the VF-1 was deliberately NERFed by the RT RPG in order to not render the Alpha utterly and hopelessly irrelevant.

(And that's not counting what it'd look like if the stats were accurately scaled, where the Alpha would be comically undercapable compared to the VF-1.)


ESalter wrote:
The Valkyrie has worse armor, worse firepower, and no planetary attack ability.

By the RPG's terms, the VF-1R has comparable armor, comparable or superior firepower, is vastly superior to the Alpha in the air, is vastly more versatile, and to put the cherry on it is also invisible to the Invid per RAW since it doesn't use protoculture. Remove Palladium's NERFing of the MLOPs and the Alpha is firmly in "why bother" territory... which was the point of the NERF to begin with.


ESalter wrote:
The Alpha has better armor, better firepower, and can take missions the Valkyrie can't.

Not really, no. See the above.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:18 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
While this is superficially correct, you missed that this demonstrates my point precisely... in order to integrate two independent stories like that, the setting and story of one of them is going to have to be totally thrown out. This is exactly what happened to Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross when it was adapted into Robotech. That was the only way they could make it fit with the much less severely edited Macross due to their incompatible settings.

I agree SDC:SC has numerous changes made to it to work (OSM#1 uses reordered scenes, deletion of Glorie's Second Moon, etc) you get no complaint from me there. I don't think its going to require SDC:SC level changes to make M-Delta work, it can probably be closer to GCM level.

However you seem to be complaining that you have to make changes, when it's expected that changes will have been implemented.

Seto wrote:
Forgive me for saying so, but this seems like pure wishful thinking considering that both the OSM's creators and Robotech's official canon generally agree that the VF-1 outclasses the Alpha, Beta, and so on in that regard (and most others).

You'll have to wait until I get to doing the estimation of the T/W ratios based on the animation and post them, with the method(s) used and specific timecodes. Beyond that i'm not going to get into this at the present time.

Seto wrote:
(and the RPG's MDC assignments are entirely arbitrary)

On this we can agree on, Palladium's game mechanic assignments are entirely arbitrary, and in some cases make no sense when compared to descriptions/depictions.

Seto wrote:
Even RT's official specs (never mind the OSM) indicate the VF-1's MLOPs are supposed to be holding SRMs.

To Be FAIR though, the Alpha is also holding the RPG's Mini Missiles (head) that are classified as SRM per the official specs too (VF-1's are 150mm vs Alpha's 78mm, but both are desribed as "short range").


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:55 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree SDC:SC has numerous changes made to it to work (OSM#1 uses reordered scenes, deletion of Glorie's Second Moon, etc) you get no complaint from me there. I don't think its going to require SDC:SC level changes to make M-Delta work, it can probably be closer to GCM level.

However you seem to be complaining that you have to make changes, when it's expected that changes will have been implemented.

No, my point - as someone intimately familiar with the Macross Delta setting and story - is that changes comparable to or even more extreme than what was done to Southern Cross would have to be made to make the setting and story fit with Robotech's. The series is unusually dependent on references to other titles for a Macross main series above and beyond the ways in which the Macross sequel setting is already fundamentally incompatible with Robotech's far bleaker vision of the future. So many threads have to be pulled or cut that the entire thing just unravels.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
(and the RPG's MDC assignments are entirely arbitrary)

On this we can agree on, Palladium's game mechanic assignments are entirely arbitrary, and in some cases make no sense when compared to descriptions/depictions.

As I understand it, it's something fairly widespread in Palladium's books... there doesn't seem to be any real relationship between stated/actual capability and MDC/Mega-Damage stats. Something I've attempted to correct in support of a number of homebrew stat sets, including my own, which of course included abolishing things like Mega-Damage infantry weapons. (This is part of what I refer to in the case of "accurately statted" versions of the mecha.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
Even RT's official specs (never mind the OSM) indicate the VF-1's MLOPs are supposed to be holding SRMs.

To Be FAIR though, the Alpha is also holding the RPG's Mini Missiles (head) that are classified as SRM per the official specs too (VF-1's are 150mm vs Alpha's 78mm, but both are desribed as "short range").

True enough... though, in all fairness, it should also be carefully noted that the head-mounted missiles themselves do not actually exist on the original design.

(They were the invention of a fan fiction author who misrepresented them to HG as something from the OSM.)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:27 am
  

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@Seto Re: Delta
I think we both agree it's going to take a lot of work. Neither of us think its worth it for different reasons, though from a devil's advocate position we know it can be done but the result is not necessarily "palatable" to either of us (someone else might still find the end result "palatable").

Seto wrote:
As I understand it, it's something fairly widespread in Palladium's books...

It is. Palladium doesn't really do scale well.

Seto wrote:
True enough... though, in all fairness, it should also be carefully noted that the head-mounted missiles themselves do not actually exist on the original design.

Perhaps, but they exist in the animation (a VAF-6I fires them in ep61 fleet battle), they might be an animation error as far as OSM is concerned, but they appear to be "official" now at least for Robotech (and have been for quite a while, it'd probably be easier for HG to recton in "positive" alterations to mecha designs than "negative" ones).

Aren't the jet lasers the same to? They get used once in the story (cut in RT), though used in the credits montage (not cut in RT).


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:02 am
  

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I think there is a problem with Robotech's stats based on Palladium's lack of editing.

Shadow Chronicles is really Robotech 1.5. It's not a true successor, reboot, or 2nd Edition to the game books. Palladium did some minor changes, adjusted some numbers, then called it good. The fluff material was excellent, but rules were... lacking.

Then comes Macross, it also has some major changes, but it still has the cut/paste issue from 1e (look at MDC by location and compare to Shadow Chronicles and Invid Invasion). Masters Saga was a true blue change, being adjusted to fit the reality of the new Robotech Universe. Character generation was cleaner. Mecha stats were better. Then the era of Jason Marker ended and all the remaining books picked up where Shadow Chronicles left off. Giving the writer some credit, the remaining books feel like a continuation of Shadow Chronicles RT1.5. But it should have corrected the failures of Shadow Chronicles and brought it up to Masters standards. Probably a hard call, to not try and alienate the biggest set of fan base.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:33 am
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
I think we both agree it's going to take a lot of work. Neither of us think its worth it for different reasons, though from a devil's advocate position we know it can be done but the result is not necessarily "palatable" to either of us (someone else might still find the end result "palatable").

From my end, it's more a question of our differing views of successful integration.

As I see it, the scope and severity of the changes that need to be made to fit with Robotech's setting mean that the exercise is, by definition, impossible. Needing to compromise almost every aspect of Macross Delta's setting and story means that you aren't integrating the series... you're just writing excuses to use the designs.

(Mind you, that's SOP for RT "reference" sites and fanmade RPG supplements... which is one of the reason the phrase "Robotech Reference" is an oxymoron.)



Tiree wrote:
I think there is a problem with Robotech's stats based on Palladium's lack of editing.

TBH, I think that's more a symptom of Palladium's stats for the Robotech line as a whole being arbitrary rather than reflective of actual performance.

The arbitrary nature of the stats is the only thing that actually keeps the game workable though. If the stats were accurately scaled based on capabilities, features, and performance info then the game would have some MASSIVE balance problems caused by the Macross Saga mecha outperforming everything else. It'd be almost as bad as what you'd get if you tried introducing correctly-statted mecha from Macross's sequels into Robotech's setting, where you've got orders-of-magnitude differences in capabilities...



Tiree wrote:
Masters Saga was a true blue change, being adjusted to fit the reality of the new Robotech Universe.

... but it was far and away the least accurate book in the 2nd Edition line.



Tiree wrote:
Then the era of Jason Marker ended and all the remaining books picked up where Shadow Chronicles left off. Giving the writer some credit, the remaining books feel like a continuation of Shadow Chronicles RT1.5. But it should have corrected the failures of Shadow Chronicles and brought it up to Masters standards. Probably a hard call, to not try and alienate the biggest set of fan base.

Frankly, I doubt that Palladium was putting its A-game into books after the Masters Saga sourcebook. They had exhausted most of the body of official Robotech material by that point, and they were generally prohibited from coming up with their own original material by the terms of their license.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:32 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
I will make the same point here I have made in most of the other threads on this and related questions.
Which is that depending on what your initial beliefs are you will get different conclusions.
If you go into something with the belief "There are no colonies" then guess what? Nothing is going to look like a colony to you.
If you go into something with the belief "there are colonies" then guess what? You will see things that support your view that there are colonies.

Or put another way a lot of these arguments are basically two different initial premises arguing past each other using entirely different data sets to draw entirely different conclusions about the same show.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:19 pm
  

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Champion

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Quote:
The canonical absence of extrasolar colonization in Robotech


God, this again? How many times is this bald-faced LIE going to be continually trotted out?

For those idiots who stuffed their hands into their ears, screaming from the cheap seats:

Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles #5
General Reinhardt: If we don't take back the Earth and cut off their resources now, what's to stop them from moving on to our colonies on the Moon, Mars and the rest of the Universe?

Notice, he doesn't say "as well as the rest of the Universe". For those that failed basic English, the use of the "and" in the middle links to the two halves of the "our colonies" where it mentions 2 specific ones (Moon, Mars) and the non-specific ones (the rest of the Universe). And yes, Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles, as per Harmony Gold's OWN STATEMENTS is canon.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:33 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
eliakon wrote:
Or put another way a lot of these arguments are basically two different initial premises arguing past each other using entirely different data sets to draw entirely different conclusions about the same show.

Eh, perhaps... but that'd be a gross mischaracterization of the discussion that was being held in this thread.

What we had here was a discussion that naturally evolved an agreed-upon list of known facts from official Robotech materials that were used to form and challenge conclusions on the subject. We worked from the same data set, and eventually arrived at a general consensus that the question of whether or not colonies exist in Robotech is mostly a question of whether one is willing to define the word "colony" broadly enough to include military bases and the attached or adjacent private staff quarters. With the established facts precluding the existence of a civilian population and any sort of civilian industry, there weren't many other potential explanations.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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