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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:58 am
  

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Are there any numbers given for the numbers of ships & people that the SDF-3 took to Tirol and how big it got by the time of the Shadow Chronicles?

Along those lines are there numbers given for how many planets and star systems that were part of the Tirolian Empire and/or conquered by the Invid?

I am trying to get a handle on the scope of the war for a UEEF Marines Planet hoping campaign.

Official numbers would be great but I would love links to websites with best guesses.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:07 am
  

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no official numbers, and fan calculations vary heavily depending on initial assumptions. you can basically just decide for yourself.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:43 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Along those lines are there numbers given for how many planets and star systems that were part of the Tirolian Empire and/or conquered by the Invid?

No, but we know the Regent captured Tirol and the Sentinels homworlds (aside from Haydonites): Spheris, Praxis, Garudan, Kabaran, Peryton. So the Invid held at least 6 systems, plus their own (Optera and previous homeworld).


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:50 am
  

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These are the inventories I came up with using the old unofficial robotech reference guide site. It is far from canon or being official

https://worldofjaymz.wikia.com/wiki/Robotech_Appendices

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:33 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Are there any numbers given for the numbers of ships & people that the SDF-3 took to Tirol and how big it got by the time of the Shadow Chronicles?

Not in terms of how many ships departed, no...

The closest we can get to firm numbers is the sizes of the fleets that returned to Earth.

The 2nd Earth Recapture mission fleet from the first episode of [MOSPEADA/Robotech's New Generation] is explicitly laid out in the animation production materials. That fleet consisted of ten Ikazuchi-class carriers, 40 Garfish-class high-speed transports, 160 Horizont-class descent shuttles, and 200 Legioss+TLEAD combiner escorts for a total of fifty warships, 2,120 fighters, 200+ bombers, and about 3,840 ground troops.

When the UEEF returned to Earth in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, the fleet composition was a lot different from what it was in the original MOSPEADA, and the fleet was made up of 30 groups of 1 Ikazuchi-class and 12 Garfish-class, and the SDF-4 with four Shimakaze-class escorts for a total of 395 ships plus the Icarus which had legged it to locate the SDF-3 and Garfish-class science ship Deucalion. So, ~400 ships not counting the garrison force protecting Liberty station and any ships under construction there. (This was supposed to be all, or at least the vast majority of, the UEEF c.2044.)


Warshield73 wrote:
Along those lines are there numbers given for how many planets and star systems that were part of the Tirolian Empire and/or conquered by the Invid?

Nope... the only named ones are the ones that were visited in the old, now decanonized, versions of the Sentinels arc which are covered in the RPG.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:28 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
no official numbers, and fan calculations vary heavily depending on initial assumptions. you can basically just decide for yourself.

That is what I am wanting to verify. I like Robotech but my knowledge of it is limited to the Jack McKinley books, which I last read more than 20 years ago, and the PB gaming books. Most of the players when I run this at conventions are bigger, sometimes MUCH bigger, fans of it than I am so if there was some official numbers somewhere I wanted to use them.

ShadowLogan wrote:
No, but we know the Regent captured Tirol and the Sentinels homworlds (aside from Haydonites): Spheris, Praxis, Garudan, Kabaran, Peryton. So the Invid held at least 6 systems, plus their own (Optera and previous homeworld).

I thought the Regent captured Havenite too? In the Marines SB Pg. 12 says Hayden IV was liberated. Isn't that their homeworld?

jaymz wrote:
These are the inventories I came up with using the old unofficial robotech reference guide site. It is far from canon or being official

https://worldofjaymz.wikia.com/wiki/Robotech_Appendices

Thanks for this Jaymz. These numbers are significantly higher than the ones I was using so its helps to see how someone else did this. The big problem here is all the ship types that I don't have stats for but truthfully I can get by with some numbers and basic descriptions for now.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Are there any numbers given for the numbers of ships & people that the SDF-3 took to Tirol and how big it got by the time of the Shadow Chronicles?

Not in terms of how many ships departed, no...

The closest we can get to firm numbers is the sizes of the fleets that returned to Earth.

The 2nd Earth Recapture mission fleet from the first episode of [MOSPEADA/Robotech's New Generation] is explicitly laid out in the animation production materials. That fleet consisted of ten Ikazuchi-class carriers, 40 Garfish-class high-speed transports, 160 Horizont-class descent shuttles, and 200 Legioss+TLEAD combiner escorts for a total of fifty warships, 2,120 fighters, 200+ bombers, and about 3,840 ground troops.

When the UEEF returned to Earth in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, the fleet composition was a lot different from what it was in the original MOSPEADA, and the fleet was made up of 30 groups of 1 Ikazuchi-class and 12 Garfish-class, and the SDF-4 with four Shimakaze-class escorts for a total of 395 ships plus the Icarus which had legged it to locate the SDF-3 and Garfish-class science ship Deucalion. So, ~400 ships not counting the garrison force protecting Liberty station and any ships under construction there. (This was supposed to be all, or at least the vast majority of, the UEEF c.2044.)

This is good info to have, are these the Mars and Jupiter divisions?

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Along those lines are there numbers given for how many planets and star systems that were part of the Tirolian Empire and/or conquered by the Invid?

Nope... the only named ones are the ones that were visited in the old, now decanonized, versions of the Sentinels arc which are covered in the RPG.

I had no idea that the Sentinels stuff was nolonger canon. That sucks because it was my favorite part of the books series and my favorite to run as a GM, although my players always prefered Invid Invasion.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:20 am
  

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Warshield, you’ll find that the UEEF Marine Book is a bit of a...debated mess. For reasons even I can’t fully explain, there are sections of it that are inconsistent with what was being established as the modern Robotech timeline. Some say the material was based more on the novels than in Harmony Gold’s new storyline.

So, while we have the Sentinels, the current canon seems to change or alter what was established in the novels and 1st edition. Many current takes in the fandom now question if the Invid occupied the Haydonite world given the history the two have now as “ancient enemies” and the increased secrecy of the Haydonites, even from their Allies.

As for me, I’m on the camp of no occupation of Haydon IV.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:09 am
  

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@Warshield73
Regarding Haydonite homeworld it is a bit tricky, it really depends where you look and how you want to take things.

Given various aspects of Prelude and TSC it seems unlikely that the Invid occupied HaydonIV. They were involved in fightning the Invid (per Prelude), but that shouldn't be surprising. But it is a more open slate really. This is if you want to go with the Series/TSC-OVA depiction, I don't have Marines SB (no interest in it given it sounds like a mess to fit), and the one I was going with. That might change with expansion of the TSC story line, but that seems unlikely.

The Old Novels (essentially their own continuity now) the Invid only "occupied" the world in the sense that they where allowed to be present. They did not invade Haydon in the traditional sense (IMHO) so I'm hesitant to say the world was liberated like the other worlds the Sentinels/REF freed from the Invid. Old comics I don't know how they differ from the Novels. The 1E RPG had it that there where more worlds than the core, and some of the animation sheets for Sentinels found on the DVD Extras had unused aliens (suggesting the possibility of more alien worlds to "liberate" in the canceled show that never got developed by anyone).

Warshield73 wrote:
I had no idea that the Sentinels stuff was nolonger canon. That sucks because it was my favorite part of the books series and my favorite to run as a GM, although my players always prefered Invid Invasion.

Everything EXCEPT the original 85 series was de-conized back in early 2000s, with only the newer stuff being "canon" that includes the 85ep Series, TSC OVA, Wildstorm Comics (includes prelude), LLA OVA. I'm not sure where the Voltron-Crossover falls, and IINM they also have a new series in comic form (literal new start). Not sure where the 2E RPG falls, but I'd put it in its own continuity (just like the 1E RPG and the Novels, and Revel RT).

Warshield73 wrote:
Are there any numbers given for the numbers of ships & people that the SDF-3 took to Tirol and how big it got by the time of the Shadow Chronicles?

We know that the SDF-3 had at least two Tokagawa ships (Carpenter's from Series and Grants in Prelude) and 1 Garfish (Series old timers arrived circa 2030). Then you have the force at Point K (and any other Point if they exist officially like in Invasion Video Game), plus Lancer's division. The UEEF grew from evacuees (LLA, L&W) from the UEDF and likely includes inheriting Moon Base Aluce. Transport Squadron 85 might be UEEF (circa 2030, recalled and in deep space).


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:30 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Are there any numbers given for the numbers of ships & people that the SDF-3 took to Tirol and how big it got by the time of the Shadow Chronicles?

Not in terms of how many ships departed, no...

The closest we can get to firm numbers is the sizes of the fleets that returned to Earth.

The 2nd Earth Recapture mission fleet from the first episode of [MOSPEADA/Robotech's New Generation] is explicitly laid out in the animation production materials. That fleet consisted of ten Ikazuchi-class carriers, 40 Garfish-class high-speed transports, 160 Horizont-class descent shuttles, and 200 Legioss+TLEAD combiner escorts for a total of fifty warships, 2,120 fighters, 200+ bombers, and about 3,840 ground troops.

When the UEEF returned to Earth in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, the fleet composition was a lot different from what it was in the original MOSPEADA, and the fleet was made up of 30 groups of 1 Ikazuchi-class and 12 Garfish-class, and the SDF-4 with four Shimakaze-class escorts for a total of 395 ships plus the Icarus which had legged it to locate the SDF-3 and Garfish-class science ship Deucalion. So, ~400 ships not counting the garrison force protecting Liberty station and any ships under construction there. (This was supposed to be all, or at least the vast majority of, the UEEF c.2044.)

This is good info to have, are these the Mars and Jupiter divisions?

The 2nd Earth Recapture mission forces described in the Genesis Climber MOSPEADA production materials as outlined above were troops supplied by Mars Base, the orbiting Mars Colony, Jupiter's Juno Base, and other, unspecified colonies in the outer solar system. The only unit insignia actually seen in the animation and art are the triangular Mars Base emblem and the heart-shaped Juno Base emblem.

The CG models for ships used in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles had unit-specific markings. Ships and equipment belonging to the UEEF proper had the UEEF roundel and a division number, while the ships and equipment from Mars Base were badged with the Mars Base insignia instead. No other base insignia are visible, though Neptune Base markings are seen on the unused VF-13 Gamma Fighter concept art. The reason for the distinction is not given.



Warshield73 wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Along those lines are there numbers given for how many planets and star systems that were part of the Tirolian Empire and/or conquered by the Invid?

Nope... the only named ones are the ones that were visited in the old, now decanonized, versions of the Sentinels arc which are covered in the RPG.

I had no idea that the Sentinels stuff was nolonger canon. That sucks because it was my favorite part of the books series and my favorite to run as a GM, although my players always prefered Invid Invasion.

Harmony Gold's Robotech creative staff tossed all previous licensee-created materials when they rebooted Robotech in 2001... all the old comics, novels, the 1st Ed. RPG, etc. were chucked out as "Robotech in name only", with HG citing overall poor quality and absent creative oversight on their part.

Of the material created by HG itself, only the "original 85" survived unscathed. Robotech II: the Sentinels was demoted to broad strokes continuity status, so about all from that arc that can be taken as accurate are the parts published after the reboot (e.g. Prelude, RTSC). The other failed projects, Robotech 3000 and Robotech: the Untold Story, are entirely non-canon as HG no longer has the Megazone 23 license and would very much like to forget that RT3K happened at all. It's unclear what HG considers the status of Robotech Academy's materials to be, though the question there appears to be academic with HG having apparently abandoned animated Robotech development altogether while the run down the clock to the end of their license two years from now.

The only materials considered canon after the reboot were the 85 episodes, the DC/Wildstorm comics (From the Stars, Love and War, Invasion, Prelude), Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, and possibly their adaptation of Love Live Alive. That embarrassing crossover with Voltron appears to be an alternate universe story, as is the new Titan Comics series.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:51 am
  

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I really want to thank all of you for the input. I stopped keeping up with Robotech around '98 / '99. I tried to get back into when Shadow Chronicles came out but I lost interest when it became obvious they were never going to put out the other two animated movies.

I have to say after reading your comments and looking at the hours of research I was trying to do on Tuesday for this I think it is the Robotech "storyline" that is a mess and so of course the timeline for the Marines book is going to be. Just my opinion though.

tobefrnk wrote:
Warshield, you’ll find that the UEEF Marine Book is a bit of a...debated mess. For reasons even I can’t fully explain, there are sections of it that are inconsistent with what was being established as the modern Robotech timeline. Some say the material was based more on the novels than in Harmony Gold’s new storyline.

So, while we have the Sentinels, the current canon seems to change or alter what was established in the novels and 1st edition. Many current takes in the fandom now question if the Invid occupied the Haydonite world given the history the two have now as “ancient enemies” and the increased secrecy of the Haydonites, even from their Allies.

As for me, I’m on the camp of no occupation of Haydon IV.

The problem with that is that in the Shadow Chronicles movie, I watched it yesterday on Prime, it describes the Haydonites as victims of the Invid so it sounded to me like they were present on there home world or something. I do understand why you would think they didn't, given how powerful the Haydonites obviously are.

Another thing I noticed that I had not heard before was that the Haydonites had destroyed the Invids Homeworld way back in the past. This means Optera is not their original home world or that the Robotech Masters are no longer the ones who destroyed or defoliated it.

Right now I would trade every Tactics mini I have, and I have a lot, for the 2 or 3 Robtech spacecraft books the Jason Marker wanted to do and the Ghost Fleet book.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:13 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I stopped keeping up with Robotech around '98 / '99. I tried to get back into when Shadow Chronicles came out but I lost interest when it became obvious they were never going to put out the other two animated movies.

TPTB at HG made some promises that turned out to be impossible to keep, so funding never materialized.



Warshield73 wrote:
I have to say after reading your comments and looking at the hours of research I was trying to do on Tuesday for this I think it is the Robotech "storyline" that is a mess and so of course the timeline for the Marines book is going to be. Just my opinion though.

The official canon that Harmony Gold set down for Robotech was rather spartan but still constituted a MASSIVE improvement on the mess that existed before.

To be brutally frank, the biggest problem with researching Robotech is that there is practically nothing in the way of authoritative publications for the franchise. The only reference materials that HG ever bothered to publish were the "Infopedia" on the official website and a single lackluster art book for RTSC that was mostly just reprinted Infopedia material typos and all. Robotech's fans are incredibly poorly served by the fansites, with the reference sites all being fan fiction references that either stubbornly ignore canon or try to write designs from other franchises into Robotech.

The UEEF Marines sourcebook was a mess, true, but the reason it ended up that way was that Palladium Books had mostly exhausted the official canon Robotech material two books earlier. The book was basically written via the loopholes in HG's list of Thou Shalt Nots for the official setting, garnished with some timeline errors caused by HG not having an adequate replacement for events for the Sentinels arc in its official timeline.


Warshield73 wrote:
Another thing I noticed that I had not heard before was that the Haydonites had destroyed the Invids Homeworld way back in the past. This means Optera is not their original home world or that the Robotech Masters are no longer the ones who destroyed or defoliated it.

Explicitly that first one... the Haydonites (aka "Children of the Shadow") destroyed the original Invid homeworld, forcing them to emigrate to Optera. Once they'd gotten settled in on Optera, their new home planet took one on the chin from the Robotech Masters, so they emigrated to Earth. They'd barely settled in there before the Humans tried to blow the planet up to deny it to the Invid, causing them to decide this dimension was a bust and go elsewhere.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:15 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I have to say after reading your comments and looking at the hours of research I was trying to do on Tuesday for this I think it is the Robotech "storyline" that is a mess and so of course the timeline for the Marines book is going to be. Just my opinion though.

Robotech's timeline has been a mess since Sentinels (maybe even Untold Story Movie). The 85ep series had its flaws, but itself was also fairly "open" on interpretations relating to date (ER vs LR). The Mess really starts to happen when they decided to do Sentinels in the way they did. Handling the resulting mess from things like the RPG, Comics, Novels, OVAs and such is pretty straight forward (move each to their own separate continuity officially), though the Comics might be beyond saving at some point (requiring some effort at classification like adaptions are "one", but the rest is disavowed maybe). By "nuking" the material in the way they did they might have done damage to their fanbase (not to mention contradictory messages like saying "novels aren't canon" and then going "here buy a new copy of the novels" that still aren't canon).

Warshield73 wrote:
The problem with that is that in the Shadow Chronicles movie, I watched it yesterday on Prime, it describes the Haydonites as victims of the Invid so it sounded to me like they were present on there home world or something. I do understand why you would think they didn't, given how powerful the Haydonites obviously are.

IIRC the dialogue from TSC (and not Prelude) though the Haydonites are a shadowy player that few in the UEEF even new about (Louie's "what's Haydonite Technology"). So the Haydonites might have been "victims", but it is unclear if that was in distant past (pre-Optera) or more recent (Optera-Earth) IMHO.

Warshield73 wrote:
Another thing I noticed that I had not heard before was that the Haydonites had destroyed the Invids Homeworld way back in the past. This means Optera is not their original home world or that the Robotech Masters are no longer the ones who destroyed or defoliated it.

The WHO is new, but we know from the 85ep series per the Regis herself that the Invid have been forced to abandon their homeworld twice before in their history (Ep84-5, forget which offhand) and the statement was made before she had decided Earth wasn't worth it.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:47 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Handling the resulting mess from things like the RPG, Comics, Novels, OVAs and such is pretty straight forward (move each to their own separate continuity officially), though the Comics might be beyond saving at some point (requiring some effort at classification like adaptions are "one", but the rest is disavowed maybe).

You could maybe get away with that for the "McKinney" novels, but the old comics and the 1st Edition RPG were so internally inconsistent that it's not really believable. The comics were so bad that the major inconsistencies weren't on a publisher-to-publisher basis or even a title-to-title basis... they were frequently on an issue-to-issue or page-to-page basis. Easier by far to just nuke the entire mess from orbit and move on with life, particularly for the lawyers.

Of course, Harmony Gold wasn't just looking at it from a continuity angle when they made that call. They were also taking into consideration the quality of those prior Robotech works and the prevailing legal situation regarding their rights-under-license. The novels and the comics started out rough and amateurish and got progressively less polished as time went on. If you're trying to relaunch an old brand, you don't want to advertise the old incarnation's worst moments while you're doing it. That the old comics were full of material that infringed on copyrights doesn't help either... HG really doesn't want to get called on the carpet to explain why their licensees ripped off characters, mechanical designs, and sometimes whole stories from other properties. Doubly so since a lot of the unlawfully-used material is from Macross, and they were already on bad terms with Macross's owners.



ShadowLogan wrote:
By "nuking" the material in the way they did they might have done damage to their fanbase (not to mention contradictory messages like saying "novels aren't canon" and then going "here buy a new copy of the novels" that still aren't canon).

They didn't do anything the fans weren't already doing. "__________ is Robotech in name only" was THE favorite argument on the old UseNet groups. It undeniably upset some fans, but you'd be hard-pressed to argue that they'd done any more damage than the fandom was already doing to itself.

Mind you, in terms of continuing to sell decanonized material... they're just imitating every other major property out there. Collected editions of superhero comics that've been decanonized by five or six reboots still enjoy brisk sales among hobbyists. Both Star Trek and Star Wars still sell their decanonized novels, some of which have been decanonized two or three times over like the old Star Trek standalone Pocket Books lines, which were declared non-canon to the shows, to each other's lines, and then to the coordinated "relaunch" timeline.



ShadowLogan wrote:
IIRC the dialogue from TSC (and not Prelude) though the Haydonites are a shadowy player that few in the UEEF even new about (Louie's "what's Haydonite Technology"). So the Haydonites might have been "victims", but it is unclear if that was in distant past (pre-Optera) or more recent (Optera-Earth) IMHO.

They basically paint the Haydonites as isolationists who'd like very much to be left alone... and there are a couple of subtle cues that suggest that giving the Humans shadow technology was a fairly basic and obvious "secret" test of character that Rick Hunter and T.R. Edwards immediately and epically failed, causing the Haydonites to conclude their new allies were the next oppressive interstellar empire in its formative years and move to wipe it out.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:15 am
  

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The Haydonites as victims still owes to the original Sentinels scripts(and McKinney novels) where the Haydonites were good guys IMO.

My own interpretation of the new version can follow one of two scenarios:

*Snow Job---The Haydonites CLAIM to have been invaded by the Invid, but their world is never actually liberated by the REF/UEEF. Instead, the Haydonites show up late in the Regent's reign of terror across the Local Group, insinuated a few agents into the enslaved Sentinel races, and help drum up a resistance, while they figure out a way of dealing with the Invid, who are much more militant than they were the first time the Haydonites encountered them. The Haydonites claim to the Sentinels that they're a distant, isolationist, people from a. backwater world that got overrun by successive invasions of the Masters and the Invid. Pushed out into the galactic community, the formerly reclusive Haydonites glad-hand it up, making a reputation as trusted advisors and lvoices of reason to the Sentinels.
Later on, when the UEEF shows up, the Haydonites then claim they've managed to free themselves with the assistance of Sentinel resources and the UEEF taking the heat off them, drawing off the Regent's forces to fight the newcomers. They then agree to share some of the technology they used or developed to fight the Invid with the Humans(whether as a test or to bait the protoculture-using new power into becoming the Haydonites' catspaws).

*Limited Invasion--- This scenario presupposes there's actual evidence(including Sentinel eyewitnesses) that the Haydonites are known to have been enslaved by the Regent. The Haydonites actually WERE conquered by the Invid; only it was a recon colony/outpost that got overwhelmed by the Regent's forces. This outpost world is what everybody else thinks is the Haydonite homeworld.
This requires that the Invid do NOT recognize the ancient enemy that nuked them off their original homeward, and thus proceed to slag the Haydonites for what they did.
However, if the Invid, when they got nuked off their original homeward, never actually saw their attackers, only their weapons, they don't recognize the Haydonites for the Shadows they are, and treat them as any other Sentinel species.
While the conquered outpost distracts the Invid, the rest of the Haydonites and the Awareness gear up to slip in and whack the Invid(no easy matter if the Invid become entrenched with even limited FoL-like sustenance)...only the UEEF shows up and the Haydonites figure they can manipulate the Humans to finish the job their cousins the Tirolians started on the Invid, as well as pour themselves down the extinction drain in the process.

_________________
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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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Last edited by taalismn on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:38 am
  

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Seto wrote:
You could maybe get away with that for the "McKinney" novels, but the old comics and the 1st Edition RPG were so internally inconsistent that it's not really believable. The comics were so bad that the major inconsistencies weren't on a publisher-to-publisher basis or even a title-to-title basis... they were frequently on an issue-to-issue or page-to-page basis. Easier by far to just nuke the entire mess from orbit and move on with life, particularly for the lawyers.

The Novels for sure it could be done.

I won't argue about the comics, at best you might get the 85ep adaption and Revel's RT comic arc (a whole 2 issues). After that I don't know and won't argue. I know some comic story lines influenced the Novels (and vise versa, this is per the author in the one of the Last Generation Novels).

1E RPG. This could be argued I suppose, but really beyond the scope of this thread IMHO.

Seto wrote:
Of course, Harmony Gold wasn't just looking at it from a continuity angle when they made that call.

I agree that is what the angle they where looking at and had to be done in some form. I just think the execution was poorly thought out. They could have achieved the same ends without much more effort by lumping some things into their own continuity. Some things may be beyond saving (comics) without much more effort.

Seto wrote:
They basically paint the Haydonites as isolationists who'd like very much to be left alone... and there are a couple of subtle cues that suggest that giving the Humans shadow technology was a fairly basic and obvious "secret" test of character that Rick Hunter and T.R. Edwards immediately and epically failed, causing the Haydonites to conclude their new allies were the next oppressive interstellar empire in its formative years and move to wipe it out.

That is how I remember them coming off from the OVA (isolationists, which seems at odds with Prelude).

As to it being a test. With so little actual background it is hard to say. Its also hard to say if they passed or failed (Haydonites had moved in response to a test detonation, which seems like a responsible thing to do and if the results had been known it might have changed the UEEF mind on using them). I had the impression all PC-users (addicts) where the enemy, and they where just trying to get them to destroy themselves (the bulk of the UEEF was at Earth, we know from TSC a PC shortage exists, and the Invid)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:06 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
The official canon that Harmony Gold set down for Robotech was rather spartan but still constituted a MASSIVE improvement on the mess that existed before.

To be brutally frank, the biggest problem with researching Robotech is that there is practically nothing in the way of authoritative publications for the franchise. The only reference materials that HG ever bothered to publish were the "Infopedia" on the official website and a single lackluster art book for RTSC that was mostly just reprinted Infopedia material typos and all. Robotech's fans are incredibly poorly served by the fansites, with the reference sites all being fan fiction references that either stubbornly ignore canon or try to write designs from other franchises into Robotech.

The UEEF Marines sourcebook was a mess, true, but the reason it ended up that way was that Palladium Books had mostly exhausted the official canon Robotech material two books earlier. The book was basically written via the loopholes in HG's list of Thou Shalt Nots for the official setting, garnished with some timeline errors caused by HG not having an adequate replacement for events for the Sentinels arc in its official timeline.

It's what I'm doing, it's what most of us are doing in fact. If there is nothing but a bare bones story you have to fill it in with your own details.

Who is actually creating story at HG? I mean how many people do they actually have and are there any new story materials expected before 2021?

I am trying to remember but wasn't this a problem in the 1st Ed RPG back in the '90s? They started creating suplemnts to fill in the period between Macross and Southern Cross, like four of them, plus a couple for Invid Invastion but nothing for Sentinels. Did HG tell PB that they couldn't do anything for that era or did PB just not want to?

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Explicitly that first one... the Haydonites (aka "Children of the Shadow") destroyed the original Invid homeworld, forcing them to emigrate to Optera. Once they'd gotten settled in on Optera, their new home planet took one on the chin from the Robotech Masters, so they emigrated to Earth. They'd barely settled in there before the Humans tried to blow the planet up to deny it to the Invid, causing them to decide this dimension was a bust and go elsewhere.


Doesn't the Regess come to Earth as sort of her divorce from the Regent? I mean I know the RM hit Optera before the war but I thought it was still a decent planet, Don't the Praxians get it in the end?

ShadowLogan wrote:
IIRC the dialogue from TSC (and not Prelude) though the Haydonites are a shadowy player that few in the UEEF even new about (Louie's "what's Haydonite Technology"). So the Haydonites might have been "victims", but it is unclear if that was in distant past (pre-Optera) or more recent (Optera-Earth) IMHO.

In the original / 1st Ed Sentinels RPG book the Haydonites are not given any stats and are not allowed as PCs. In the McKinney novels we only meet 2 of them I believe, and IIRC they betray the UEEF in Book 18 End of the Circle so this fits the with the way it was addressed in the past. I always got the impression that HG/PB didn't know what they were going to do with them.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
The novels and the comics started out rough and amateurish and got progressively less polished as time went on.

Wow, that is well worded slam. Have to remember it in the future when I'm discussing something I don't like. I never read the comics, I own a few but never got around to it, but I always liked the novels, especially Invid Invasion and Sentinels. But to be fair I havn't read them in almost 20 years.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
If you're trying to relaunch an old brand, you don't want to advertise the old incarnation's worst moments while you're doing it. That the old comics were full of material that infringed on copyrights doesn't help either... HG really doesn't want to get called on the carpet to explain why their licensees ripped off characters, mechanical designs, and sometimes whole stories from other properties. Doubly so since a lot of the unlawfully-used material is from Macross, and they were already on bad terms with Macross's owners.

This is always going to be a problem just given the way Robotech was born and the way they do business. What I can't believe is that Sony, or anybody, is willing to pump money into this for a film.

taalismn wrote:
The Haydonites as victims still owes to the original Sentinels scripts(and McKinney novels) where the Haydonites were good guys IMO.

*Limited Invasion--- This scenario presupposes there's actual evidence(including Sentinel eyewitnesses) that the Haydonites are known to have been enslaved by the Regent. The Haydonites actually WERE conquered by the Invid; only it was a recon colony/outpost that got overwhelmed by the Regent's forces. This outpost world is what everybody else thinks is the Haydonite homeworld.
This requires that the Invid do NOT recognize the ancient enemy that nuked them off their original homeward, and thus proceed to slag the Haydonites for what they did.
However, if the Invid, when they got nuked off their original homeward, never actually saw their attackers, only their weapons, they don't recognize the Haydonites for the Shadows they are, and treat them as any other Sentinel species.
While the conquered outpost distracts the Invid, the rest of the Haydonites and the Awareness gear up to slip in and whack the Invid(no easy matter if the Invid become entrenched with even limited FoL-like sustenance)...only the UEEF shows up and the Haydonites figure they can manipulate the Humans to finish the job their cousins the Tirolians started on the Invid, as well as pour themselves down the extinction drain in the process.

Ever since Shadow Chronicles came out this was, with the exception of the planet not being their homeworld, basically how I thought of the Invid "occupation" of Haydonite homeworld went.

I treated it as the Invid being satisfied with containing and monitoring the Haydonites without oppressing them and I had no flower of life on the planet, I'm not sure if that conflicts with canon though.

After rewatching Shadow Chronicles I also think that the Invid did not know that the Haydonites were the "Children of the Shadow" as they didn't recognize them until the shadow tech and neutron S missiles were brought into play. Again, this might conflict with canon but it seems to make sense as if the Regent recognized them as the people that destroyed their original homeworld I think they would have bypassed everyone else and gone nuclear on them.

Related note, do we have any idea what the awareness is?

ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
They basically paint the Haydonites as isolationists who'd like very much to be left alone... and there are a couple of subtle cues that suggest that giving the Humans shadow technology was a fairly basic and obvious "secret" test of character that Rick Hunter and T.R. Edwards immediately and epically failed, causing the Haydonites to conclude their new allies were the next oppressive interstellar empire in its formative years and move to wipe it out.

That is how I remember them coming off from the OVA (isolationists, which seems at odds with Prelude).

As to it being a test. With so little actual background it is hard to say. Its also hard to say if they passed or failed (Haydonites had moved in response to a test detonation, which seems like a responsible thing to do and if the results had been known it might have changed the UEEF mind on using them). I had the impression all PC-users (addicts) where the enemy, and they where just trying to get them to destroy themselves (the bulk of the UEEF was at Earth, we know from TSC a PC shortage exists, and the Invid)

I did not get this impression at all.

First of all, if they are the ones that destroyed the Invids original homeworld that is pretty imerialsitic not isolationist. We know the invid of the time were not war like as even after that planet goes bye-bye when Zor finds them on Optera they are still peaceful.

Second, in the movie the Haydonites talk about "all the protoculture adicts must be purged. To me that sounded like they planned to destroy the UEEF as soon as they arrived using protoculture.

Too me it sounds like the Awareness, or Shadow as the Invid call it, hates the flower of life and especially Protoculture so it sends the Haydonites / its children to destroy all that use it.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:15 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I am trying to remember but wasn't this a problem in the 1st Ed RPG back in the '90s? They started creating suplemnts to fill in the period between Macross and Southern Cross, like four of them, plus a couple for Invid Invastion but nothing for Sentinels. Did HG tell PB that they couldn't do anything for that era or did PB just not want to?

The 1E RPG books fell into types as produced by PB: setting (Bk1-5, RTII and Ref Field Guide) and campaign modules (Bk6-8, Ghost, Rockers, Breakout, ATP).

The campaign modules, with 2 exceptions, all dealt with Earth during Reconstruction (TMS to TRM) and the two exceptions focused on post NG Invid occupied Earth. Now Book 8 (Strike Force) while was setup for Earth during this period, the author did suggest the possibility of moving the adventure into other eras (Occupation, Sentinels).

Some of the Setting Books (mostly RTII and REF FG) did include short descriptions for adventures, but nothing like the dedicated campaign modules (though REF FG might more properly belong as a campaign module).

I don't know if it was HG or PB that didn't have any interest in the era. I know there where a few more planned SBs that where canned as of losing the (1E) Licence or being held up, but I don't recall any specifics on them.

Warshield73 wrote:
Doesn't the Regess come to Earth as sort of her divorce from the Regent? I mean I know the RM hit Optera before the war but I thought it was still a decent planet, Don't the Praxians get it in the end?

No. The Regis "divorces" the Regent more or less around the time of the Tirol invasion. The Praxians get the world in the Novels, but with current canon its anyones guess (as of 2043 IINM it was still an Invid world).

Warshield73 wrote:
In the original / 1st Ed Sentinels RPG book the Haydonites are not given any stats and are not allowed as PCs. In the McKinney novels we only meet 2 of them I believe, and IIRC they betray the UEEF in Book 18 End of the Circle so this fits the with the way it was addressed in the past. I always got the impression that HG/PB didn't know what they were going to do with them.

The 1E RPG treated the Haydonites as one of a kind robots, the novels only had 2 Haydonites among the Sentinels but there was a whole world populated by them. So the RPG skipping them makes sense in that it seems like only 2 are among the Sentinels with the rest staying home.

It has been a while since I've read EotC, but as I recall the Haydonites essentially betrayed the REF, but that had more to do with the Awareness exerting itself over them. Its more like someone was overriding their individual control than of their own free will.

[quote=Warshield73"]I did not get this impression at all.

First of all, if they are the ones that destroyed the Invids original homeworld that is pretty imerialsitic not isolationist. We know the invid of the time were not war like as even after that planet goes bye-bye when Zor finds them on Optera they are still peaceful.

Second, in the movie the Haydonites talk about "all the protoculture adicts must be purged. To me that sounded like they planned to destroy the UEEF as soon as they arrived using protoculture.

Too me it sounds like the Awareness, or Shadow as the Invid call it, hates the flower of life and especially Protoculture so it sends the Haydonites / its children to destroy all that use it.

[/quote]
The Impression I had of the Haydonites as a whole is that by 2044 they are publicly isolationists. I agree that their battle at Invid Homeworld #1 doesn't suggest that, but that was in the distant past.

We don't know the source of the Haydonites dislike of Protoculture users. We don't know why the Haydonites have Protoculture cloaking (or Shadow) technology in the first place, and that includes N-S missiles (which the Invid recognize). We don't know why the Hadyonites wanted to recover the Protoculture Matrix/Factory (aboard the SDF-3). We don't know if the Haydonite action in the OVA is from them as a whole or just a subset.

As far as I'm concerned the Haydonites portrayl in the 80s and 90s properties are distict from the current Yune-Tech verse. They might share names, but that is all.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:59 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
It's what I'm doing, it's what most of us are doing in fact. If there is nothing but a bare bones story you have to fill it in with your own details.

Which is fine if you're writing say, a fanfic or the the outline for a RPG campaign... it's not really acceptable if you're writing what's meant to be (or at least advertises itself as) a reference work. That's one of the reasons the Robotech fandom is plagued by misinformation problems.


Warshield73 wrote:
Who is actually creating story at HG? I mean how many people do they actually have and are there any new story materials expected before 2021?

On paper, it's Tommy Yune. In practice, there hasn't been any active development of new Robotech story material in over four years.

For all practical intents and purposes, Harmony Gold abandoned the Robotech animated continuity back in 2007 when Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles did not produce the promised influx of new fans and investors to pay for the other two (or three) episodes of the "Shadow Saga" OVA. With nobody willing to pay for any new development, the franchise was essentially on indefinite hiatus. It was briefly revived seven years later in 2014, when Harmony Gold tried to get fans to pay for development of a new TV pilot on Kickstarter and abandoned a few weeks later in the wake of HG's ragequit when their Kickstarter campaign failed to get even 50% of its funding target. They haven't done a thing with it since.


Warshield73 wrote:
I am trying to remember but wasn't this a problem in the 1st Ed RPG back in the '90s? They started creating suplemnts to fill in the period between Macross and Southern Cross, like four of them, plus a couple for Invid Invastion but nothing for Sentinels. Did HG tell PB that they couldn't do anything for that era or did PB just not want to?

Per HG, they were exercising no creative control or oversight over what licensees were creating after the double failure of the Robotech: the Untold Story film and Robotech II: the Sentinels TV series.

Per Kevin S., Palladium Books was basically flying blind in RT1E. He asserted that Palladium received only minimal material on the series from Harmony Gold, and it had to get most of its information by freeze-framing its way through the series or from quick-and-dirty translations of what little they could lay hands on in the way of OSM artbooks. They were literally making it up as they went with no guidance from HG. "Flying blind", as it were. Which, in a way, makes it feel a bit unfair to have HG disown it as "low quality" or "Robotech in name only". At least HG didn't shy away from responsibility for the problems their lack of oversight caused.


Warshield73 wrote:
Doesn't the Regess come to Earth as sort of her divorce from the Regent?

No, that came waaaay later... she split with the Regent before the 2nd Robotech War, and didn't come to Earth until after it.


Warshield73 wrote:
I mean I know the RM hit Optera before the war but I thought it was still a decent planet, Don't the Praxians get it in the end?

It's a hellhole in the current canon... looks a lot like post-1st War Earth. Edwards set up shop there after betraying the Expeditionary Forces, presumably because it was about the last place anyone would think to look for him and had abandoned Invid resources he needed for his plan.

There's nothing said about the Praxians getting it in the current canon... and they probably wouldn't want it if they saw it. It's a genuinely unpleasant place. (Then again, the only ambassadors who have any dialog at all are L'Ron and Veidt.)


Warshield73 wrote:
In the original / 1st Ed Sentinels RPG book the Haydonites are not given any stats and are not allowed as PCs. In the McKinney novels we only meet 2 of them I believe, and IIRC they betray the UEEF in Book 18 End of the Circle so this fits the with the way it was addressed in the past. I always got the impression that HG/PB didn't know what they were going to do with them.

They cut that down to one for Prelude and Shadow Chronicles... just Ambassador Veidt, since all of the Sentinels races delegations were cut down to only one ambassador instead of two.


Warshield73 wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
The novels and the comics started out rough and amateurish and got progressively less polished as time went on.

Wow, that is well worded slam. Have to remember it in the future when I'm discussing something I don't like. I never read the comics, I own a few but never got around to it, but I always liked the novels, especially Invid Invasion and Sentinels. But to be fair I havn't read them in almost 20 years.

It wasn't intended as a slam... just a frank assessment of the downward spiral we saw in Robotech in the nineties. The comics in particular saw a decline that was sharp enough to result in two license revocations. The novels were always a whipping boy in the fandom, since producing a novel adaptation of a TV series that barely resembles the series is pretty much a textbook example of "doing it wrong".


Warshield73 wrote:
This is always going to be a problem just given the way Robotech was born and the way they do business. What I can't believe is that Sony, or anybody, is willing to pump money into this for a film.

It's not really an issue relating to how Robotech was created or how it does business... and more a lack of proper communication with licensees about what's permissible and what's not.

As far as pumping money into a film... nobody is. Sony is sitting on the rights the same way that Warner Bros did. It's pretty standard behavior when a property makes it big... the studios buy up rights to similar stories in the hopes of riding a trend or at least to deny them to each other. Robotech's license got picked up pretty much entirely because it was a robot series that happened to be a contemporary of G1 Transformers. Nobody has any actual intention of making the movie, which is why it's been "in development" for almost 12 years with exactly zero progress.


Warshield73 wrote:
Related note, do we have any idea what the awareness is?

A Haydonite who's had way too much coffee...

... or, to be serious, the big damn computer that runs Haydonite society.


Warshield73 wrote:
I did not get this impression at all.

RTSC is pretty upfront about the Haydonites being a secretive species who wanted to be left alone.


Warshield73 wrote:
First of all, if they are the ones that destroyed the Invids original homeworld that is pretty imerialsitic not isolationist. We know the invid of the time were not war like as even after that planet goes bye-bye when Zor finds them on Optera they are still peaceful.

Imperialistic would mean the Haydonites conquered the Invid homeworld... all they did was glass it.


Warshield73 wrote:
Second, in the movie the Haydonites talk about "all the protoculture adicts must be purged. To me that sounded like they planned to destroy the UEEF as soon as they arrived using protoculture.

In Prelude, the Haydonites didn't conclude the humans needed to be wiped out until after their reaction to obtaining neutron-s warheads was "let's set one off to see what it does" and equated them to the Robotech Masters 2.0.

It's heavily implied the Haydonites know something about protoculture that the Earth forces don't, and are keen to take it out of play for the sake of their own safety.

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Last edited by Seto Kaiba on Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:38 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Who is actually creating story at HG? I mean how many people do they actually have and are there any new story materials expected before 2021?

I assume writing for Robotech only occurs when there's a specific project that needs writing for. (I haven't read of any big projects coming from Harmony Gold itself, but I'm hardly an expert.)

Warshield73 wrote:
I am trying to remember but wasn't this a problem in the 1st Ed RPG back in the '90s? They started creating suplemnts to fill in the period between Macross and Southern Cross, like four of them, plus a couple for Invid Invastion but nothing for Sentinels. Did HG tell PB that they couldn't do anything for that era or did PB just not want to?

I can't imagine why HG would forbid new Sentinels material specifically.

Warshield73 wrote:
Doesn't the Regess come to Earth as sort of her divorce from the Regent?

Yes, eventually; she had to find it first.

Warshield73 wrote:
I mean I know the RM hit Optera before the war but I thought it was still a decent planet...

Optera was completely defoliated. (And it didn't look pleasant from a human perspective in "The New Generation.")

Warshield73 wrote:
Don't the Praxians get it in the end?

In the plans for the series, Praxis isn't destroyed, so there's no need for the Praxians to move to Optera.

Warshield73 wrote:
What I can't believe is that Sony, or anybody, is willing to pump money into this for a film.

Why not? Movies without ties to existing properties are made all the time; any additional benefit from the franchise is a bonus. And it's a way to use a Macross-like property without needing access to Macross itself.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:05 pm
  

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ESalter wrote:
I can't imagine why HG would forbid new Sentinels material specifically.

They have, ever since the reboot.

Sentinels was such a complete fiasco for the company in multiple formats that their management is death on anything to do with it. That's why UEEF Marines was Robotech 1 3/4: Resembling but Legally Distinct from The Sentinels, and so was Robotech Academy. As far as HG is concerned, Sentinels is OVER and is not to be revisited except in re-releases of existing decanonized materials.



ESalter wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
What I can't believe is that Sony, or anybody, is willing to pump money into this for a film.

Why not? Movies without ties to existing properties are made all the time; any additional benefit from the franchise is a bonus. And it's a way to use a Macross-like property without needing access to Macross itself.

The problem - and the reason the film will never be made - is that Harmony Gold doesn't own 99% of the Robotech IP, and can't authorize its use in the movie. So it's not really a way to use a Macross-like property without access to Macross. It's just a vague premise and some proper nouns. The film would basically be starting from scratch, and at that point why bother? There isn't any money being pumped into it... it's just your standard similar-license squatting triggered by Paramount's success with Transformers.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:35 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I am trying to remember but wasn't this a problem in the 1st Ed RPG back in the '90s? They started creating suplemnts to fill in the period between Macross and Southern Cross, like four of them, plus a couple for Invid Invastion but nothing for Sentinels. Did HG tell PB that they couldn't do anything for that era or did PB just not want to?

Per Kevin S., Palladium Books was basically flying blind in RT1E. He asserted that Palladium received only minimal material on the series from Harmony Gold, and it had to get most of its information by freeze-framing its way through the series or from quick-and-dirty translations of what little they could lay hands on in the way of OSM artbooks. They were literally making it up as they went with no guidance from HG. "Flying blind", as it were. Which, in a way, makes it feel a bit unfair to have HG disown it as "low quality" or "Robotech in name only". At least HG didn't shy away from responsibility for the problems their lack of oversight caused.

I remember KS talking about this a few times on podcasts and at the 1st POH. 1E Palladium Robotech was my first exposure to Robotech followed by the JM novels so I actually have more attachment to those than most people. I am pretty sure that HG refused to let PB create any more Sentinels content toward the end of the original license for similar reasons that they are disowning it now.

I never looked into this but did anyone else by the Robotech RPG license after PB dropped it?

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I mean I know the RM hit Optera before the war but I thought it was still a decent planet, Don't the Praxians get it in the end?

It's a hellhole in the current canon... looks a lot like post-1st War Earth. Edwards set up shop there after betraying the Expeditionary Forces, presumably because it was about the last place anyone would think to look for him and had abandoned Invid resources he needed for his plan.

There's nothing said about the Praxians getting it in the current canon... and they probably wouldn't want it if they saw it. It's a genuinely unpleasant place. (Then again, the only ambassadors who have any dialog at all are L'Ron and Veidt.)

That actually makes Optera sound more interesting. Where do we see this stuff with Edwards in the new canon?

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Related note, do we have any idea what the awareness is?

A Haydonite who's had way too much coffee...

... or, to be serious, the big damn computer that runs Haydonite society.

I think what I am most curious about is:
1. Did it create the Haydonites.
2. Are the Haydonites the original Children of the Shaow / henchmen for the Awareness or did it have a different group attack the 1st Invid HW?
3. Is it actually a computer or something else? When people were discussing placing Robotech into a Cthullu mythos Wierd and Random Thoughts I thought the Awareness would be a great place to start.
4. Why does it hate/fear protoculture?

I think if I ran a long term Robotech campaign I would have to come up with answers to this.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I did not get this impression at all.

RTSC is pretty upfront about the Haydonites being a secretive species who wanted to be left alone.

I get secretive but they don't seem to want to be left alone.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
First of all, if they are the ones that destroyed the Invids original homeworld that is pretty imerialsitic not isolationist. We know the invid of the time were not war like as even after that planet goes bye-bye when Zor finds them on Optera they are still peaceful.

Imperialistic would mean the Haydonites conquered the Invid homeworld... all they did was glass it.

You're right not imperialistic but they are certainly interventionists. If they see protoculture they seem to want you dead and this dates back before the Robotech Masters rise to power if they glassed the first Invid home world.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Second, in the movie the Haydonites talk about "all the protoculture adicts must be purged. To me that sounded like they planned to destroy the UEEF as soon as they arrived using protoculture.

In Prelude, the Haydonites didn't conclude the humans needed to be wiped out until after their reaction to obtaining neutron-s warheads was "let's set one off to see what it does" and equated them to the Robotech Masters 2.0.

Wasn't the Haydonites first reaction to the Neutron-S missiles "Hey let's glass the 1st Invid home world"? I mean the Regess recognized them so I assumed they are what the Awareness or the Children of the Shadow used to glass tehre planet.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
It's heavily implied the Haydonites know something about protoculture that the Earth forces don't, and are keen to take it out of play for the sake of their own safety.

See this doesn't make much sense to me. I get that they fear protoculture but "Know something the UEEF doesn't" implies that protoculture is dangerous to someone other than the Awareness.

Given everything that has been said My guess would be that anyone who wanted to do a long running Robotech campaign the first thing they would have to do would be to piece together a timeline that has everything they want in it since it seems clear HG won't.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:53 am
  

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You’re right, Warshield. Filling in the timeline is a big part of the “play value” for me. Coming up with my own answers that can fit in what has been established. The index cards and outlines I have are almost close to those “yarn string” crime detective maps. haHA!

I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s come up with their own take on the missing prices, or the motives of the Haydonites.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:12 am
  

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Shadowlogan - they show optera and Edward in the prelude comic.

Also yes someone picked the license and are doing a rpg.
A couple of other companies are doing board and/or card games as well. Company names elude me at the moment though

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:03 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I am pretty sure that HG refused to let PB create any more Sentinels content toward the end of the original license for similar reasons that they are disowning it now.

I've never heard anything to suggest that they did... the straw that broke the camel's back was Palladium Books refusing (quite sensibly, as it turned out) to obtain a license to Robotech 3000 sight-unseen as a precondition to renewing the Robotech license.


Warshield73 wrote:
I never looked into this but did anyone else by the Robotech RPG license after PB dropped it?

Strange Machine Games did. Curiously, they titled their game as a Macross Saga RPG, which makes one wonder if they intend to bother with the other sagas in the ~2 years before Robotech's license expires.


Warshield73 wrote:
That actually makes Optera sound more interesting. Where do we see this stuff with Edwards in the new canon?

The Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles limited comic. We only see it briefly, since most of the action takes place inside Edwards' appropriated Invid hive headquarters where he delivers a few snide remarks before mutating into a monster and resorting to Bond villain one-liners.


Warshield73 wrote:
I think what I am most curious about is:
1. Did it create the Haydonites.
2. Are the Haydonites the original Children of the Shaow / henchmen for the Awareness or did it have a different group attack the 1st Invid HW?
3. Is it actually a computer or something else? When people were discussing placing Robotech into a Cthullu mythos Wierd and Random Thoughts I thought the Awareness would be a great place to start.
4. Why does it hate/fear protoculture?

1. As it's theoretically a giant computer and the Haydonites are cybernetic life forms, they almost certainly created it.
2. There's nothing to suggest there were other "Children of the Shadow" at any point.
3. Officially, there's no supernatural side to Robotech.
4. That's the million dollar question that the Shadow Saga was supposed to answer but never will now that it's canceled.


Warshield73 wrote:
I get secretive but they don't seem to want to be left alone.

RTSC is pretty upfront about them wanting to be left alone... to such an extent that they insisted their support of the UEEF remain a closely guarded secret among those with a need to know.

Almost nobody in the UEEF even knows that shadow technology came from the Haydonites.


Warshield73 wrote:
You're right not imperialistic but they are certainly interventionists. If they see protoculture they seem to want you dead and this dates back before the Robotech Masters rise to power if they glassed the first Invid home world.

Intervening in a dangerous situation doesn't necessarily mean they're not secretive... especially if they did it from behind their shadow field stealth.


Warshield73 wrote:
Wasn't the Haydonites first reaction to the Neutron-S missiles "Hey let's glass the 1st Invid home world"?

Ariel took Scott to the original Invid homeworld, and it was very definitely still a planet and not a black hole... so we can safely assume the answer to that is a firm "No".

When the UEEF obtained the neutron-s missiles, the Haydonites clearly expected them NOT to use them. That they immediately decided to deploy them was what prompted Veidt to declare that the humans were a lost cause.


Warshield73 wrote:
See this doesn't make much sense to me. I get that they fear protoculture but "Know something the UEEF doesn't" implies that protoculture is dangerous to someone other than the Awareness.

It hasn't exactly been great for the Tirolians, Humans, or Zentradi... and it wouldn't be the first time an aborted Robotech feature tried to make protoculture being inherently dangerous a major plot point. Robotech 3000 tried to do the same thing.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:52 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
2. There's nothing to suggest there were other "Children of the Shadow" at any point.

"Children of Shadow" does not appear to be a "Haydonite" only thing, If you will recall in Ep84 Sera calls Corg a child of shadow and not the humans.

So either:
A. Child(ren) of Shadow is just a generic catchall Invid term for evil guy/gal
B. Rogue Invid are the Child(ren) of Shadow, with the implication then that the Haydonites are Invid offshots from a different evolutionary path
C. The term has multiple meanings (not unheard of)

Seto wrote:
RTSC is pretty upfront about them wanting to be left alone... to such an extent that they insisted their support of the UEEF remain a closely guarded secret among those with a need to know.

Which seems at odds given Prelude. So either Prelude isn't (and has never been) canon or they are rectoning Prelude if it is canon.

Seto wrote:
When the UEEF obtained the neutron-s missiles, the Haydonites clearly expected them NOT to use them. That they immediately decided to deploy them was what prompted Veidt to declare that the humans were a lost cause.

Lets also keep in mind there was a math error (intentional or not), which was influencing UEEF thinking. We know the N-S missiles create a black hole in actual practice, what we DON"T KNOW is what the UEEF thought was going to happen based on the Math Error. Weather the Haydonites are aware of the math error or not I don't know.

Clearly the Hadyonites hadn't done their research on Terrans. We had MAD doctrine, World War II (use of Atmotic weapons), World War I (use of chemical weapons), etc. Or perhaps they had, and were hoping Terrans would take themselves out along with the Invid.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:19 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
"Children of Shadow" does not appear to be a "Haydonite" only thing, If you will recall in Ep84 Sera calls Corg a child of shadow and not the humans.

Remember, the meaning of "children of [the] shadow" changed between the Robotech TV series and Shadow Chronicles "movie".

The TV series version of Symphony of Light has the Regess refer to it as "the shadow of the Robotech Masters".
The RTSC OVA version of that same event changes the meaning to refer to the Haydonites as "Children of the Shadow" instead.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Which seems at odds given Prelude. So either Prelude isn't (and has never been) canon or they are rectoning Prelude if it is canon.

Granted, it might look that way at first... but take stock of who in Prelude is shown to know the Haydonites are even involved, let alone behind shadow technology.

The only ones who are in the know are the UEEF brass, the Sentinels council ambassadors, a handful of top R&D figures like Emil Lang and Lazlo Zand, and a few select members of the inner circles of those people like Lang's assistant Janice Em and Vince Grant, and maybe the two dozen members of the Tokugawa's crew who survived long enough to heard Edwards' motive rant. Even Louie Nichols, one of the senior aides to the heads of R&D, didn't know about it until Janice clued him in in the OVA proper.

Prelude even kind of takes the angle where the Haydonites try to claim Edwards rediscovered a very old technology on his own (a lie, as Edwards' own dialog reveals) and "help" the UEEF recreate it from files Edwards failed to delete while fleeing Tirol... so the list of people who know that the technology was always Haydonite in origin is probably even smaller and mostly populated by dead people like T.R. Edwards.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Lets also keep in mind there was a math error (intentional or not), which was influencing UEEF thinking. We know the N-S missiles create a black hole in actual practice, what we DON"T KNOW is what the UEEF thought was going to happen based on the Math Error. Weather the Haydonites are aware of the math error or not I don't know.

I forget the exact wording, but Veidt does tell Admiral Hunter to his face that the weapons are for all practical intents and purposes The Biggest Stick. He also offers a cryptic warning that they're too close to the blast area right before the missile test firing... that, combined with Edwards having obtained the warheads from the Haydonites, suggests that Veidt knew precisely what he'd handed over and how powerful it was. He also knew the humans didn't know, because the first thing they decided to do was set one off to see what it'd do.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Clearly the Hadyonites hadn't done their research on Terrans. We had MAD doctrine, World War II (use of Atmotic weapons), World War I (use of chemical weapons), etc. Or perhaps they had, and were hoping Terrans would take themselves out along with the Invid.

That was clearly Plan B, though the Haydonite dialog in Prelude suggests they were hoping the humans would decline the weapons and in so doing demonstrate that they were not going to turn into the Robotech Masters Mk.II.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:03 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
Remember, the meaning of "children of [the] shadow" changed between the Robotech TV series and Shadow Chronicles "movie".

The TV series version of Symphony of Light has the Regess refer to it as "the shadow of the Robotech Masters".
The RTSC OVA version of that same event changes the meaning to refer to the Haydonites as "Children of the Shadow" instead.


Did it really though? The dialogue with "children of shadow" and "shadow of the robotech masters" suggests two separate things in the show. The meaning doesn't change between them, Ariel refutes the idea humans are Children of the Shadow (Tirolians/Masters are genetically speaking 100% Terran per show dialogue), and no one makes a similar statement for Corg and defends humans as not being such. "Shadow of the Robotech Masters" in 85Ep RT and TSC does not seem to have the same implication/use as "Child(ren) of Shadow". Per the TV show we know Tirolians (or atleast their bioroid pilots) are genetically identical to Terrans (unlike the Zentreadi the use doesn't fluctuate)

Especially if we go back to Rands FoL Dream-sequence Episode with Shadow/Laytow (IINM the use in the OSM is more reaching in epsidoes with the Inbit mother going on about S/L).

Ep84 in the initial scene where Terrans and Regis encounter each other
Regis: So Ariel it is true you are a traitor was it you who led these Children of Shadow to the Hive
Ariel/Marlene: Yes but you must be made to see they are not Children of the Shadow they have a life force that is almost as strong as our own

later in Ep84
Sera: And has made a monster out of you consumed by vengeance and evil passions you are a Child of Shadow Corg and not the humans

and at end
Regis No they have come … from beyond the stars the Dark Tides of Shadow have come to engulf us again

Ep85 (IIRC used in TSC)
Regis The final attack has begun and a terrible error has been made we shall not be defeated… The Shadow of the Robotech Masters has been allowed to rule this world for to long… now it must end

and a bit later
Regis Hear me my children when we sensed the first faint indications of the protoculture resources on this world we had thought that at last we had found the home for which we searched…We called together all of our people scatted throughout the galaxies to begin life anew on this planet we began rebuilding a world that had nearly been destroyed by evil we constructed the Genisis Pits in order to persue the path of enlightened evolution but it was not enough... The Earth is gradually reviving and eventually will regain its proper balance in accordance with the laws of nature however the humans have been influenced to strongly by the shadow of the Robotech Masters and are intent only in the destruction of their entire race it shall not be... we will continue our evolutionary development elsewhere... come with me disgard this world and follow the spirit of Light as it beckons us onward

Seto wrote:
Granted, it might look that way at first... but take stock of who in Prelude is shown to know the Haydonites are even involved, let alone behind shadow technology.

Maybe, maybe not it is hard to say how wide spead it was. But Prelude does have the statement of "...now these Sentinels! I had heard the council was negotiating with new aliens can we really trust these guys..." -Daryl (Wolf Leader, someone I can't see having a need to know). So while specifics are lacking knowledge of UEEF-Alien negotiations where rumor (at minimum, Daryl makes it sound like more than rumor/gossip though) at the very least

Seto wrote:
Prelude even kind of takes the angle where the Haydonites try to claim Edwards rediscovered a very old technology on his own (a lie, as Edwards' own dialog reveals) and "help" the UEEF recreate it from files Edwards failed to delete while fleeing Tirol... so the list of people who know that the technology was always Haydonite in origin is probably even smaller and mostly populated by dead people like T.R. Edwards.

I agree here (in context to Prelude), but that seems in contrast to Janice statement about "Haydonite Technology" in TSC to Louie IMHO.

Seto wrote:
I forget the exact wording, but Veidt does tell Admiral Hunter to his face that the weapons are for all practical intents and purposes The Biggest Stick. He also offers a cryptic warning that they're too close to the blast area right before the missile test firing... that, combined with Edwards having obtained the warheads from the Haydonites, suggests that Veidt knew precisely what he'd handed over and how powerful it was. He also knew the humans didn't know, because the first thing they decided to do was set one off to see what it'd do.

I pulled Prelude off the shelf (no easy page reference), but is this the scene:
Hunter: ... That's eight hundred million meters Vedit. you don't think we may be taking our precautions a bit to far?
Vedit: It is not far.

I don't see anything that suggests they are to close.

Seto wrote:
That was clearly Plan B, though the Haydonite dialog in Prelude suggests they were hoping the humans would decline the weapons and in so doing demonstrate that they were not going to turn into the Robotech Masters Mk.

But at the same time it seems like there is something like hope when Vedit says "However Admiral Hunter has the foresight to better understand the technology seized from Edwards." which in reply to the Awareness/other stating that humans are placing themselves on the path of the Robotech Masters. If Hunter has the foresight to better understand what they had, it might just get humans to not follow the path (Terrans want to reclaim Earth, not obliterate it completely).


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:59 am
  

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tobefrnk wrote:
You’re right, Warshield. Filling in the timeline is a big part of the “play value” for me. Coming up with my own answers that can fit in what has been established. The index cards and outlines I have are almost close to those “yarn string” crime detective maps. haHA!

I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s come up with their own take on the missing prices, or the motives of the Haydonites.

I still have some of my original timeline notes and star maps for the RM's area of space but it is all based on the 1st edition RPG and the novels.

Right now all I'm doing is running convention games so all I really want to do is avoid contradicting the canon in any meaningful way.

jaymz wrote:
Also yes someone picked the license and are doing a rpg.
A couple of other companies are doing board and/or card games as well. Company names elude me at the moment though


Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I never looked into this but did anyone else by the Robotech RPG license after PB dropped it?

Strange Machine Games did. Curiously, they titled their game as a Macross Saga RPG, which makes one wonder if they intend to bother with the other sagas in the ~2 years before Robotech's license expires.


No I guess I wasn't clear. I was talking about the 1st edition when PB dropped it in 2000. Did any else do an RPG between PBs two uses of the license? I was just wondering if there was a non-PB Robotech RPG out there somewhere which might have stuff like...and this is just random...planets or spacecraft that I could pillage for useful material.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
1. As it's theoretically a giant computer and the Haydonites are cybernetic life forms, they almost certainly created it.

You think the Haydonites created the Awareness? I thought it was the other way around that the awareness created the Haydonites.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I get secretive but they don't seem to want to be left alone.

RTSC is pretty upfront about them wanting to be left alone... to such an extent that they insisted their support of the UEEF remain a closely guarded secret among those with a need to know.

Almost nobody in the UEEF even knows that shadow technology came from the Haydonites.

I get secretive and I believe they didn't want anyone in the UEEF to know where they got the tech from but the dialogue in Shadow Chronicles seems like the purpose of this was to make it easier to get the humans to destroy themselves and the Invid with the missiles.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Wasn't the Haydonites first reaction to the Neutron-S missiles "Hey let's glass the 1st Invid home world"?

Ariel took Scott to the original Invid homeworld, and it was very definitely still a planet and not a black hole... so we can safely assume the answer to that is a firm "No".

I just rewatched that scene and she didn't seem to "take" him anywhere. It looked more like they were viewing a memory. The visual effect is very different then when she is teleporting around but is very similar to just a few minutes earlier when we see her on earth having a vision of the Haydonites destroying Liberty. Also the other pilots walk in while she is still glowing which to me meant they were still "in" the vision. In later scenes she doesn't glow after a teleportation for more than a second so this just doesn't line up. Is there a text source that says they actually went to the planet? Also, does she have the power to make trips like that? I mean dozens to hundreds of parsecs away in a few seconds?

In the Shadow Chronicles, right around 30 minute mark after the Invid escaped the Awareness tells a Haydonite that all protoculture addicts must be destroyed and that "all those who draw power from the flower of life pose a potential threat toour domination" which sounds very...dominate-ish.

Also, the Awareness clearly wants the invid destroyed and it is upset when the UEEF doesn't use the missiles. I mean the Haydonites knew what they would do and clearly lied to the UEEF so I don't get how they could be disappointed in humans wanting to use them. I mean if the Hayonites said "well if you need a big weapon we have this thing that will turn your planet into a black hole" and the UEEF said "sounds great, how many can we get" then yes everyone should be scared of those people. But that wasn't the case. The UEEF clearly expected to "decimate half the earth (and i'm sure they didn't mean actual decimation as that is only one in 10 but really annihilation) but still big difference and really judgy from a race that has wiped out at least one occupied planet.

Also also, if the Awareness never used N-S missiles then how did the Regess recognize them and how did she know that they were planet busters?

I have not been able to read all of the Prelude comic, not really available right now, but from what I was able to get online the conversation with Vedit about not using the missiles was more about him not wanting to destroy the humans than about Awareness not wanting to. They clearly had no math error, it was meant to wipe them out.

Now if the Prelude comic is very specific about this then the comic and the movie have some incredible inconsistencies but from what we've been discussing here that just seems to be another day in Robotech.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
When the UEEF obtained the neutron-s missiles, the Haydonites clearly expected them NOT to use them. That they immediately decided to deploy them was what prompted Veidt to declare that the humans were a lost cause.

Lets also keep in mind there was a math error (intentional or not), which was influencing UEEF thinking. We know the N-S missiles create a black hole in actual practice, what we DON"T KNOW is what the UEEF thought was going to happen based on the Math Error. Weather the Haydonites are aware of the math error or not I don't know.

Clearly the Hadyonites hadn't done their research on Terrans. We had MAD doctrine, World War II (use of Atmotic weapons), World War I (use of chemical weapons), etc.


We know from the dialogue in the movie that the Haydonites expected the use of the N-S missile to obliterate the planet with all the fleets included and they were disappointed when it wasn't used. Also from some of Janice's dialogue with Louise it seems clear that whatever 'math error" the UEEF had, the Haydonites knew about and didn't tell them so we can assume it was intentional on the Haydonites part.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Or perhaps they had, and were hoping Terrans would take themselves out along with the Invid.

Given everyhting in the movie I just think this is the only real option and if Prelude is different then it is really inconstant.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Which seems at odds given Prelude. So either Prelude isn't (and has never been) canon or they are rectoning Prelude if it is canon.

Granted, it might look that way at first... but take stock of who in Prelude is shown to know the Haydonites are even involved, let alone behind shadow technology.

The only ones who are in the know are the UEEF brass, the Sentinels council ambassadors, a handful of top R&D figures like Emil Lang and Lazlo Zand, and a few select members of the inner circles of those people like Lang's assistant Janice Em and Vince Grant, and maybe the two dozen members of the Tokugawa's crew who survived long enough to heard Edwards' motive rant. Even Louie Nichols, one of the senior aides to the heads of R&D, didn't know about it until Janice clued him in in the OVA proper.

Prelude even kind of takes the angle where the Haydonites try to claim Edwards rediscovered a very old technology on his own (a lie, as Edwards' own dialog reveals) and "help" the UEEF recreate it from files Edwards failed to delete while fleeing Tirol... so the list of people who know that the technology was always Haydonite in origin is probably even smaller and mostly populated by dead people like T.R. Edwards.

Again I agree with the whole secrecy thing, I just think it is purely diabolical "we shall make you the tools of your own destruction and rule the galaxy and you'll never know we used this technology to destroy at least one planet already" evil secret vs. just leave us alone here's some tech for your war please don't use it. This just does not come through in the movie at all and in fact seems to really conflict with the Haydonites actions in the movie.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Lets also keep in mind there was a math error (intentional or not), which was influencing UEEF thinking. We know the N-S missiles create a black hole in actual practice, what we DON"T KNOW is what the UEEF thought was going to happen based on the Math Error. Weather the Haydonites are aware of the math error or not I don't know.

I forget the exact wording, but Veidt does tell Admiral Hunter to his face that the weapons are for all practical intents and purposes The Biggest Stick. He also offers a cryptic warning that they're too close to the blast area right before the missile test firing... that, combined with Edwards having obtained the warheads from the Haydonites, suggests that Veidt knew precisely what he'd handed over and how powerful it was. He also knew the humans didn't know, because the first thing they decided to do was set one off to see what it'd do.

To me this just seems more that Veidt wasn't onboard with the "get the humans to wipe themselves and the Invid out for us" plan but couldn't stop it.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Clearly the Hadyonites hadn't done their research on Terrans. We had MAD doctrine, World War II (use of Atmotic weapons), World War I (use of chemical weapons), etc. Or perhaps they had, and were hoping Terrans would take themselves out along with the Invid.

That was clearly Plan B, though the Haydonite dialog in Prelude suggests they were hoping the humans would decline the weapons and in so doing demonstrate that they were not going to turn into the Robotech Masters Mk.II.


Again the Haydonites knew what the weapon would do, because they had already wiped out at least one world, and the humans didn't. If Rick Hunter had created a black hole with an N-S and said "wow let's go use this on earth" then yeah I can see your point of view but it doesn't fit the Awareness and Haydonite dialogue in the movie.

I am not an expert on Robotech but a lot of this just doesn't fit what is in the movie.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:56 am
  

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Knight

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Warshield73 wrote:
No I guess I wasn't clear. I was talking about the 1st edition when PB dropped it in 2000. Did any else do an RPG between PBs two uses of the license? I was just wondering if there was a non-PB Robotech RPG out there somewhere which might have stuff like...and this is just random...planets or spacecraft that I could pillage for useful material.

Between the 1E and 2E Palladium RPG no one had the license for a pen-paper RPG. There were a few videogames that came out in that period (IINM).

Warshield73 wrote:
You think the Haydonites created the Awareness? I thought it was the other way around that the awareness created the Haydonites.

In the McKinney Continuity you'd be correct, but in the Yune Continuity who knows which came first.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:43 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
No I guess I wasn't clear. I was talking about the 1st edition when PB dropped it in 2000. Did any else do an RPG between PBs two uses of the license? I was just wondering if there was a non-PB Robotech RPG out there somewhere which might have stuff like...and this is just random...planets or spacecraft that I could pillage for useful material.

Nope. After Palladium lost the license when they declined to pay for an expansion of the license including Robotech 3000, the rights went into limbo until Palladium got the license back ~2006 to make RT2E.


Warshield73 wrote:
You think the Haydonites created the Awareness? I thought it was the other way around that the awareness created the Haydonites.

Some of the remarks in the leaked outlines for the unproduced Shadow Saga OVA episodes suggest the Haydonites are cyborgs rather than robots in the reboot continuity.


Warshield73 wrote:
I get secretive and I believe they didn't want anyone in the UEEF to know where they got the tech from but the dialogue in Shadow Chronicles seems like the purpose of this was to make it easier to get the humans to destroy themselves and the Invid with the missiles.

The RTSC film establishes that only the most senior UEEF officials are even aware the Haydonites exist... and nobody'd seen what they actually look like until Vince capped one on Space Station Liberty.

RTSC itself doesn't make a ton of sense without the Prelude comic's plot setup, which contained that aside which suggests the Haydonites were unhappy with how humanity chose to employ the shadow technology they'd been given and that that'd prompted the decision to destroy them before they could imitate the Robotech Masters and set up a new oppressive interstellar empire.


Warshield73 wrote:
I just rewatched that scene and she didn't seem to "take" him anywhere. It looked more like they were viewing a memory. The visual effect is very different then when she is teleporting around but is very similar to just a few minutes earlier when we see her on earth having a vision of the Haydonites destroying Liberty.

She is established to have essentially the same powerset as the Regess.


Warshield73 wrote:
In the Shadow Chronicles, right around 30 minute mark after the Invid escaped the Awareness tells a Haydonite that all protoculture addicts must be destroyed and that "all those who draw power from the flower of life pose a potential threat toour domination" which sounds very...dominate-ish.

Considering the Haydonites are an isolationist power who only seem to regard species who are driven mad with power by protoculture's potential, that may be excessive dramatics on their part rather than a statement of intent towards galactic domination. Even in the plot outline for the rest of the OVA, they never attack anyone except the UEEF and Tirolians.


Warshield73 wrote:
Also, the Awareness clearly wants the invid destroyed and it is upset when the UEEF doesn't use the missiles.

They were upset in Prelude that humanity intended to use the missiles, and concluded based on that that humanity had set itself on the same course the Robotech Masters had.


Warshield73 wrote:
Also also, if the Awareness never used N-S missiles then how did the Regess recognize them and how did she know that they were planet busters?

The Regess is, for all practical intents, a superbeing. She can even see through the stealth effect produced by shadow devices, which means she could potentially see that the missiles were full of neutron star matter. That right there would be enough to give anyone pause for thought.


Warshield73 wrote:
Again I agree with the whole secrecy thing, I just think it is purely diabolical "we shall make you the tools of your own destruction and rule the galaxy and you'll never know we used this technology to destroy at least one planet already" evil secret vs. just leave us alone here's some tech for your war please don't use it. This just does not come through in the movie at all and in fact seems to really conflict with the Haydonites actions in the movie.

That's the problem with having an OVA where only the first episode was actually produced... and one where the plot setup is all done in a limited comic.


Warshield73 wrote:
Again the Haydonites knew what the weapon would do, because they had already wiped out at least one world, and the humans didn't. If Rick Hunter had created a black hole with an N-S and said "wow let's go use this on earth" then yeah I can see your point of view but it doesn't fit the Awareness and Haydonite dialogue in the movie.

Usually when someone ends up in possession of an apocalyptic weapon their first impulse isn't "let's immediately use this on someone"... even the creation of the first generation atomic weapons were treated with substantially more caution, concern, and substantial fear. You'd probably go "this guy is dangerous" too if someone's first reaction to being told they possessed the most powerful weapon ever was "awesome, moar dakka!".

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:20 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
You think the Haydonites created the Awareness? I thought it was the other way around that the awareness created the Haydonites.

In the McKinney Continuity you'd be correct, but in the Yune Continuity who knows which came first.

Yeah, this seems to be a running theme. I spent a couple hours today trying to find canon answers to a few questions and no luck:

1. When did the RM defoliate Optera and how long did they have an empire?
2. How long ago did the Haydonites destroy the first Invid Home World? just a range, hundreds of years ago? - thousands of years ago? I mean a date would be great but I'll take anything.
3. How long were the sentinels aliens under the control of the Tiroleans and how long have invid controled them.

Nothing official just a lot of supposition.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
You think the Haydonites created the Awareness? I thought it was the other way around that the awareness created the Haydonites.

Some of the remarks in the leaked outlines for the unproduced Shadow Saga OVA episodes suggest the Haydonites are cyborgs rather than robots in the reboot continuity.

I'm not touching sources like this with a thousand foot pole. If what you are saying about the Prelude comic is true then you combine that with the movie and you already have a story that makes no sense. I can't imagine how bad it gets when you take notes from an unedited and unreleased source. All I'm trying to do is avoid conflicting with actual canon when I run my games not write a book.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I get secretive and I believe they didn't want anyone in the UEEF to know where they got the tech from but the dialogue in Shadow Chronicles seems like the purpose of this was to make it easier to get the humans to destroy themselves and the Invid with the missiles.

The RTSC film establishes that only the most senior UEEF officials are even aware the Haydonites exist... and nobody'd seen what they actually look like until Vince capped one on Space Station Liberty.

RTSC itself doesn't make a ton of sense without the Prelude comic's plot setup, which contained that aside which suggests the Haydonites were unhappy with how humanity chose to employ the shadow technology they'd been given and that that'd prompted the decision to destroy them before they could imitate the Robotech Masters and set up a new oppressive interstellar empire.

Again I agree with the whole secrecy thing but the rest doesn't make any sense. I have to disagree with your second point though. RTSC makes perfect sense on it's own (The Haydonites hate the Flower of Life, they see it as a threat to their "domination" of the galaxy and so they try trick one side, the UEEF, into destroying themselves and taking the other users, the Invid, with them) but when you add what you say is in Prelude the two conflict too much to make any sense.

Your description of the Haydonite fearing humans as the next RM is really silly if that is how it is written. To me this is the comparison.

I go out and shoot up a mall full of people (Invid HW). A few years later I show my neighbor how to fire a gun (N-S). She likes it and decides to buy one from me. I'm afraid she'll use it on someone so I burn her house down with her family in it to keep her from using the gun.

Their actions are on no plane of existence reasonable to their fears.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I just rewatched that scene and she didn't seem to "take" him anywhere. It looked more like they were viewing a memory. The visual effect is very different then when she is teleporting around but is very similar to just a few minutes earlier when we see her on earth having a vision of the Haydonites destroying Liberty.

She is established to have essentially the same powerset as the Regess.

I understand she has the same powers as the Regess, that's not my point. I'm saying that the visual cues in the movie make it seem that she is showing Scott not taking him somewhere. The VT pilots walk in on them while they are seeing it so unless she took the entire base there. The visuals of the planet don't make any sense either. I mean the planet has active mushroom clouds. Did that last hundreds or even thousands of years. The visuals seem to indicate that she was showing him the destruction of the original home world not taking him there.

And again how did the Regess recognize the N-S missiles if the Haydonites had never used them on the Invid?

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
In the Shadow Chronicles, right around 30 minute mark after the Invid escaped the Awareness tells a Haydonite that all protoculture addicts must be destroyed and that "all those who draw power from the flower of life pose a potential threat toour domination" which sounds very...dominate-ish.

Considering the Haydonites are an isolationist power who only seem to regard species who are driven mad with power by protoculture's potential, that may be excessive dramatics on their part rather than a statement of intent towards galactic domination. Even in the plot outline for the rest of the OVA, they never attack anyone except the UEEF and Tirolians.

First, you are forgetting their original destruction of the Invid home world. Something they did just because they had the flower of life and there is zero indication that they had been driven mad. There is nothing in either the old sotrylines or the new that would indicate that the Invid had an empire before this, they just attacked. When did the Haydonites attack the Masters? I saw nothing about this. As near as I can tell they just sat back and let the masters run with it and then let the Invid destroy them. I can't even find anything about the Masters conquering Haydom IV. Is there anything in the canon that says they had any dealings with the Masters?

Also, I don't get in the Robotech story where humans have been driven mad. I mean after three successive alien invaders I think the fictional humans in Robotech are a lot more stable then real humans would be.

Finally, the scene is pretty clear and the word is "domination". They didn't say "if we wipe these people out we will be left alone" they said "threat to our domination" now if this doesn't convey intent then again RTSC and the prelude comic together make no sense.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Also also, if the Awareness never used N-S missiles then how did the Regess recognize them and how did she know that they were planet busters?

The Regess is, for all practical intents, a superbeing. She can even see through the stealth effect produced by shadow devices, which means she could potentially see that the missiles were full of neutron star matter. That right there would be enough to give anyone pause for thought.

Great theory, if we had no dialogue from the movie. She recognized them as weapons. At about 27 minutes in the movie she says "I have seen this weapon before and the humans can not possibly understand its destructive power". She also "intervenes" to prevent Aerial from being destroyed by taking the active missiles away to prevent the destruction of the Earth.

If this conflicts with the Prelude comic then maybe it is no longer canon. Or, in the highly likely alternative, maybe it's just a giant frelling mess.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Again I agree with the whole secrecy thing, I just think it is purely diabolical "we shall make you the tools of your own destruction and rule the galaxy and you'll never know we used this technology to destroy at least one planet already" evil secret vs. just leave us alone here's some tech for your war please don't use it. This just does not come through in the movie at all and in fact seems to really conflict with the Haydonites actions in the movie.

That's the problem with having an OVA where only the first episode was actually produced... and one where the plot setup is all done in a limited comic.

Agreed, but I would take it back further to creating a setting out of three unconnected sources and then having an OVA where only the first episode was actually produced... and one where the plot setup is all done in a limited comic.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Again the Haydonites knew what the weapon would do, because they had already wiped out at least one world, and the humans didn't. If Rick Hunter had created a black hole with an N-S and said "wow let's go use this on earth" then yeah I can see your point of view but it doesn't fit the Awareness and Haydonite dialogue in the movie.

Usually when someone ends up in possession of an apocalyptic weapon their first impulse isn't "let's immediately use this on someone"... even the creation of the first generation atomic weapons were treated with substantially more caution, concern, and substantial fear. You'd probably go "this guy is dangerous" too if someone's first reaction to being told they possessed the most powerful weapon ever was "awesome, moar dakka!".

Actually no. In the real world I'm not afraid of the entity that wants dozens of nukes. They usually want something else including to live. I'm terrified of the person that only wants one.

Also, the first ever test detonation of a nuclear bomb was July 16, 1945. We dropped the first bomb on Hiroshima 20 days later, which back then was about as fast as you could move it so not sure how this relates.

If you are saying the UEEF was told "this is the biggest weapon they are used to that. Mecha are more powerful than anything they could imagine. Then the SDF-1, then the SDF-3, so on, so forth. Again everything in the movie says that the humans had no idea how big a boom this was and everything says that the Haydonites lied to them so if the Hyadonites wanted to see what the UEEF would do they probably would have told them "Hey black hole bomb, you interested?" instead of tricking them.

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Benefactor Insider - Rifts Bestiary: Volume 1


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:56 am
  

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Knight

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Warshield73 wrote:
Yeah, this seems to be a running theme. I spent a couple hours today trying to find canon answers to a few questions and no luck:

1. When did the RM defoliate Optera and how long did they have an empire?
2. How long ago did the Haydonites destroy the first Invid Home World? just a range, hundreds of years ago? - thousands of years ago? I mean a date would be great but I'll take anything.
3. How long were the sentinels aliens under the control of the Tiroleans and how long have invid controled them.

Nothing official just a lot of supposition.

That's because those questions have never had official answers... and, yes, it's a running theme for Robotech in general.

Having essentially been hacked together on the fly from three unrelated shows, Robotech has a LOT of dialog errors and conflicts. The backstory is unfortunately the part that gets hit hardest by this lack of planning. You end up with, on the one hand, carryover statements about the Zentradi having been around for something like half a million years shoulder to shoulder with assertions about the Robotech Masters empire having risen in Zor's lifetime and fallen almost immediately after his death in the recent past.

The closest we get to a statement about any of those is that the Invid's original homeworld was devastated "a long time ago".



Warshield73 wrote:
I'm not touching sources like this with a thousand foot pole. If what you are saying about the Prelude comic is true then you combine that with the movie and you already have a story that makes no sense. I can't imagine how bad it gets when you take notes from an unedited and unreleased source. All I'm trying to do is avoid conflicting with actual canon when I run my games not write a book.

It is, unfortunately, the only way to have any idea about what the Shadow Saga was eventually going to do. The ideas therein are largely terrible to a comical extent, but hey... that's SOP for RT.

If you want to avoid canon conflicts, just avoid the Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles portions like the plague since Sentinels is essentially all non-canon except for a few bare details like the existence of the Sentinels alien species and the SDF-3 having gone on a mission to Tirol and ended up in a war with the Invid Regent, and Shadow Chronicles is the first episode of a cancelled OVA series so its resolution is eternally up in the air and none of the plot threads have resolutions.



Warshield73 wrote:
Again I agree with the whole secrecy thing but the rest doesn't make any sense. I have to disagree with your second point though. RTSC makes perfect sense on it's own (The Haydonites hate the Flower of Life, they see it as a threat to their "domination" of the galaxy and so they try trick one side, the UEEF, into destroying themselves and taking the other users, the Invid, with them) but when you add what you say is in Prelude the two conflict too much to make any sense.

The idea that the Haydonites seek dominion over the galaxy doesn't make sense in and of itself... they've been sitting pretty for how many millennia doing jack squat, they've never invaded or occupied someone else's territory, they've never attacked anyone they didn't consider an immediate threat to themselves, they couldn't give a flip about anyone who doesn't use protoculture, and they spend two decades or so avidly supporting the UEEF to the extent of even providing them with a half-Haydonite ambassador to facilitate smoother relations so they can be left the hell alone.

That's not the actions of a conquering army... they act more like a parent taking away a child's pellet gun before they put someone's eye out.



Warshield73 wrote:
Your description of the Haydonite fearing humans as the next RM is really silly if that is how it is written. To me this is the comparison.

I go out and shoot up a mall full of people (Invid HW). A few years later I show my neighbor how to fire a gun (N-S). She likes it and decides to buy one from me. I'm afraid she'll use it on someone so I burn her house down with her family in it to keep her from using the gun.

You're missing the difference in scale entirely.

You burn down a crazy cult's compound (the Invid homeworld) because they're experimenting with dangerous drugs. The drugged-up cultists go take over the neighboring town while the cops are off on a sting, so you sell some guns and bombs to the crazy redneck militia types because they're gung-ho about solving the problem. The cops swagger in and confiscate all that hardware, but they are totally ignorant of how powerful the hardware is. They decide to find out by setting off a bomb in your backyard while standing next to it. Do you let them carry on, or do you take the dangerous toys away from them because they're clearly a pack of dangerous idiots little better than the cultists?



Warshield73 wrote:
I understand she has the same powers as the Regess, that's not my point. I'm saying that the visual cues in the movie make it seem that she is showing Scott not taking him somewhere. The VT pilots walk in on them while they are seeing it so unless she took the entire base there.

The visual cues clearly show them leaving the station, and the dialog supports that they did actually teleport to the planet itself... they're not interrupted until after they return and Ariel starts begging Scott to not let that happen to Earth.



Warshield73 wrote:
The visuals of the planet don't make any sense either. I mean the planet has active mushroom clouds. Did that last hundreds or even thousands of years. The visuals seem to indicate that she was showing him the destruction of the original home world not taking him there.

They look nothing like mushroom clouds. It looks more like vapor clouds from active volcanoes... though none are in sight. It may just be alien weather on a planet that didn't follow Earthlike norms even before it was bombed to crap.



Warshield73 wrote:
And again how did the Regess recognize the N-S missiles if the Haydonites had never used them on the Invid?

It's possible she simply recognizes the technology from a smaller-scale version of the weapon... or maybe they brought one and never used it.

They can't have used a full-scale neutron-s warhead on the Invid homeworld because the post-bombardment world we see (vision or actual) is still a planet and not a black hole.



Warshield73 wrote:
First, you are forgetting their original destruction of the Invid home world. Something they did just because they had the flower of life and there is zero indication that they had been driven mad. There is nothing in either the old sotrylines or the new that would indicate that the Invid had an empire before this, they just attacked. When did the Haydonites attack the Masters? I saw nothing about this. As near as I can tell they just sat back and let the masters run with it and then let the Invid destroy them. I can't even find anything about the Masters conquering Haydom IV. Is there anything in the canon that says they had any dealings with the Masters?

... the Invid Regent is a saturday morning cartoon show villain, and the Regess was a walking "A God Am I" trope from the outset. They maintain the flower of life is dangerous with a capital D too.

There is no canon information about the Sentinels era anymore, so no luck there.

It's possible the Haydonites considered the Masters to have been hoist with their own petard and therefore punished enough after their empire rose and collapsed almost overnight thanks to it being dependent entirely on protoculture. (Like when a kid's parents catch them smoking and make them smoke the whole pack as punishment.)



Warshield73 wrote:
Also, I don't get in the Robotech story where humans have been driven mad. I mean after three successive alien invaders I think the fictional humans in Robotech are a lot more stable then real humans would be.

... "free" humanity, c.2044, is a society organized entirely around military lines. There are explicitly no civilians and no career path outside of military service. Several members of their leadership are genocidal xenophobes. They spend their time going from planet to planet "liberating" the locals and enlisting them in their war effort. Their reaction to being unable to retake their homeworld from an Invid occupation force in the short term is to try to burn the motherf***er down so nobody can have it, killing millions of their own people in the process.

(Canonically, even pre-3rd War Earth was a military dictatorship for most purposes... albeit with Leonard in charge it was canonically more like a military kakistocracy.)



Warshield73 wrote:
Finally, the scene is pretty clear and the word is "domination". They didn't say "if we wipe these people out we will be left alone" they said "threat to our domination" now if this doesn't convey intent then again RTSC and the prelude comic together make no sense.

Remember that this is the first episode of an aborted series... it doesn't exactly get into the details of their goals and motives.



Warshield73 wrote:
If this conflicts with the Prelude comic then maybe it is no longer canon. Or, in the highly likely alternative, maybe it's just a giant frelling mess.

It's Robotech... it is, was, and always will be a giant effing mess. ESPECIALLY where aborted projects like Shadow Chronicles are concerned. When Macek tried to explain the Robotech plot to Tatsunoko's writers during development of Sentinels, it wasn't without reason that they looked at him like he'd grown an extra head and asked for a lightly grilled weasel on a sesame seed bun and then promptly ignored him.

Prelude and RTSC were both explicitly canon, the problem with RTSC is you're looking at an incomplete work and attempting to draw conclusions about a story arc that will never be resolved.



Warshield73 wrote:
Actually no. In the real world I'm not afraid of the entity that wants dozens of nukes. They usually want something else including to live. I'm terrified of the person that only wants one.

The one you should fear is the one who isn't afraid to use however many they have... which is exactly what sent the Haydonites from "these humans might be OK" to "well, it's genocide after all boys".



Warshield73 wrote:
Also, the first ever test detonation of a nuclear bomb was July 16, 1945. We dropped the first bomb on Hiroshima 20 days later, which back then was about as fast as you could move it so not sure how this relates.

The key difference being that everyone was literally terrified of the damn thing before it was ever set off and even moreso afterwards... and they deployed the two they did with the greatest reluctance, taking pains to warn their enemies ahead of time to minimize loss of life.

Contrast that with Admiral Hunter's "coolbeans, let's go set one off as a test to see how big the boom will be and throw a bunch of them at our immediate problem before we even have the results from that".



Warshield73 wrote:
If you are saying the UEEF was told "this is the biggest weapon they are used to that. Mecha are more powerful than anything they could imagine. Then the SDF-1, then the SDF-3, so on, so forth. Again everything in the movie says that the humans had no idea how big a boom this was and everything says that the Haydonites lied to them so if the Hyadonites wanted to see what the UEEF would do they probably would have told them "Hey black hole bomb, you interested?" instead of tricking them.

Humans had already seen weapons capable of evaporating cities in a single hit and fleets that could glass Earth in the time it takes to boil an egg... being told they had a weapon more powerful than that should have been brown trousers time, not cause for eager pyromania.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:22 pm
  

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Knight

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Seto wrote:
Having essentially been hacked together on the fly from three unrelated shows, Robotech has a LOT of dialog errors and conflicts. The backstory is unfortunately the part that gets hit hardest by this lack of planning. You end up with, on the one hand, carryover statements about the Zentradi having been around for something like half a million years shoulder to shoulder with assertions about the Robotech Masters empire having risen in Zor's lifetime and fallen almost immediately after his death in the recent past.

I'm not sure it was the Recent Past, at least exempting Tirol. The 1/2million years does create problems, but not insurmountable ones. The reason why the "recent past" doesn't necessarily work is because you can clone and transfer memories/consciousness between clones (Zentreadi sizing) means that you could in theory live for a very long time by generating new bodies but being the same person (mentally).

Seto wrote:
If you want to avoid canon conflicts, just avoid the Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles portions like the plague since Sentinels is essentially all non-canon except for a few bare details like the existence of the Sentinels alien species and the SDF-3 having gone on a mission to Tirol and ended up in a war with the Invid Regent, and Shadow Chronicles is the first episode of a cancelled OVA series so its resolution is eternally up in the air and none of the plot threads have resolutions.

Agree with avoiding Sentinels and TSC.

Sentinels was poorly executed concept that just introduces issues that don't need to exist. TSC isn't much different in that regard.

Seto wrote:
Contrast that with Admiral Hunter's "coolbeans, let's go set one off as a test to see how big the boom will be and throw a bunch of them at our immediate problem before we even have the results from that".

I DO NOT get that impression, at least taking both Ep84-5 and in conjunction with TSC/Prelude it seems even stronger. Hunter wanted them to be used as a last resort per Reinhardt (who was certainly more xenophobic than Hunter apparently). Also it seemed to be an US vs THEM situation for who gets to live.

Ep84 from Reinhardt: And between you and me Sparks if our mission doesn't prove successful I've been ordered by Admiral Hunter himself to obliterate the planet completely

Ep85 from Reinhardt: hm and if we don't win this fight It's going to mean our total annihilation… If push comes to shove we can always speed up preparations on the Nuetron-S missiles, but only if every thing else has failed

Prelude (Council meeting use of the N-S) from Hunter: ...We'll have no choice but to use the Neutron S warheads as a last resort. But only if we're facing complete annihilation. Before we're forced to make that decision I want to see what these warheads can do myself....(next panel)... I pray we won't need them.

Seto wrote:
Humans had already seen weapons capable of evaporating cities in a single hit and fleets that could glass Earth in the time it takes to boil an egg... being told they had a weapon more powerful than that should have been brown trousers time, not cause for eager pyromania.

Actually Earth already had what amounts to "Black Hole" weapons and used them once. The Orbital Warp Blast the ASC used in the later part of the 2RW for all practical purposes is a black hole weapon (IMHO). Weather the OWB is more dangerous than the N-S missile is debatable and subject to context/pov.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:38 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
I'm not sure it was the Recent Past, at least exempting Tirol. The 1/2million years does create problems, but not insurmountable ones. The reason why the "recent past" doesn't necessarily work is because you can clone and transfer memories/consciousness between clones (Zentreadi sizing) means that you could in theory live for a very long time by generating new bodies but being the same person (mentally).

The one consistent thing about the accounts is that they're all inconsistent with each other... Macek was never specific about it, but works claiming to draw on his notes have variously depicted the death of Zor as something that happened either thousands of years ago or mere decades ago (c.2029). None of them line up with the half million years dialog, mercifully.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Sentinels was poorly executed concept that just introduces issues that don't need to exist. TSC isn't much different in that regard.

RTSC is, via Prelude, literally just the long-overdue conclusion to the Sentinels arc... so the one's really just an extension of the other's problems.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
Contrast that with Admiral Hunter's "coolbeans, let's go set one off as a test to see how big the boom will be and throw a bunch of them at our immediate problem before we even have the results from that".

I DO NOT get that impression, at least taking both Ep84-5 and in conjunction with TSC/Prelude it seems even stronger. Hunter wanted them to be used as a last resort per Reinhardt (who was certainly more xenophobic than Hunter apparently). Also it seemed to be an US vs THEM situation for who gets to live.

I dunno, him announcing off the cuff to take one out and set it off with a big goofy grin on his face in Prelude... and deploying a WMD like that directly alongside the fleet as if he expected the mission to fail...


ShadowLogan wrote:
Actually Earth already had what amounts to "Black Hole" weapons and used them once. The Orbital Warp Blast the ASC used in the later part of the 2RW for all practical purposes is a black hole weapon (IMHO). Weather the OWB is more dangerous than the N-S missile is debatable and subject to context/pov.

There's a slight problem in that the description of the "orbital warp blast" tactic describes something that very definitely isn't a black hole.

Or, rather, it describes an unrealistic black hole in the style of Star Trek (2009) or Disney's The Black Hole where a black hole is a highly destructive portal to another dimension/reality in a manner apparently similar to Macross's dimensional warheads or Warhammer 40,000's vortex weaponry.

The neutron-s missiles in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles produce a more realistic (or at least, less inaccurate) black hole in the form of a supermassive object with gravity intense enough that light cannot escape it.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:37 am
  

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Seto wrote:
I dunno, him announcing off the cuff to take one out and set it off with a big goofy grin on his face in Prelude... and deploying a WMD like that directly alongside the fleet as if he expected the mission to fail...

It doesn't look like a "big goofy grin" to me, more of a "I'm unhappy with this but I'm doing it anyway" grin.

Seto wrote:
There's a slight problem in that the description of the "orbital warp blast" tactic describes something that very definitely isn't a black hole.

From Ep53 Col. Green: "They'd almost certainly break up into atoms and be sucked into a small black hole on a one-way trip into another dimension.”-emphasis mine.
The "another dimension" isn't very accurate I agree*, one of the reasons I put black hole in quotes in the initial post. However as you approach a black hole (a real one) you would be torn to bits.

The main point is that humans in RT already had a similiar weapon effect. TSC's N-S missiles in comparison seem overly complex and in a sense primitive in comparison when you think about it (they use a Shadow Cloak to hide a gravitationally massive object vs "hey I can just kick in my hyperspace engines"). Now the N-S detonation is more powerful by comparison (it created by all indications a permanent black hole vs a temporary one) I will agree, but we don't know how the size of the ship can impact the effect of a OWB or an N-S warhead(Emerson's ship is what <500m long officially vs ~2.8km long N-S missile assembly, the warhead is what ~3Ik length's in diameter by ~1.5Ik length's long with the Ikazuchi being ~700m long officially).

*there's a lot in the episode that can be questioned on grounds of accuracy w/n the episode as a whole IIRC.


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