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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:54 am
  

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Ok. in Southern cross, a UEEF Tokugawa class battleship (callsign 'recon-1', IIRC, actual name not known) arrives at earth in the middle of a battle between the ASC and the Robotech masters. (Ep 47 "Outsiders") the ship is lost in action, but the crew managed to escape in escape pods, including the person who appeared to be in command of the ship, who was giving orders on the bridge, and the crew deferred to.

that person was Major Carpenter, per dialog.

the problem i have is that major is not a naval rank (which the UEEF seems to follow). it is an army/airforce/marine rank.
further, as ranks go it is literally one of the lower officer ranks. it is literally the lowest of the field grade officer ranks (those ranks which would be assigned missions taking them away from contacts for long periods of time.) and even then, that is only in some IRL military forces, not all of them.
the nearest naval rank is a Lieutenant Commander

so what is a non-naval O-4 doing commanding a naval battleship? a Lt.CMDR would only rate a light vessel, like a Frigate in real life, or a support vessel. a Marine or Army Major would not even be in command at all. especially not in the middle of a battle.

so yeah, a bit of a weird rank for what he is. especially since he was sent by the UEEF to bear a message to the ASC about the UEEF's status. sending a Junior Officer to carry a message to General Leonard (who is basically a Five Star General rank wise, an O-11..) and the Civilian Government.


i've occasionally wondered if we shouldn't be assuming he was a Major General (an O-8) in the Marines, and that he could give commands on the ship because he had command of the entire mission. and that Leonard either just misunderstood the rank, or was intentionally using a Junior officer's rank to address him in an attempt to show dominance somehow.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:12 am
  

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I always assumed he was in overall command of the mission it not necessarily the ship directly.

Its better to not worry about it. It's robotech who knows what they were thinking at the time.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:48 am
  

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What if ships could have two crew "organizational" approaches: Air Force (Star Gate style) and Navy (Star Trek style)? This is sort of supported by the show given:
-SDF-1 was naval crew ranks
-ASC had their task force(s) commanded by General Emerson
-Pioneer Mission was commanded by General Reinhardt, so Major Carpenter is not out of place
-NG arc had General Reinhardt in command of the SDF-4, we also had naval ranks for Grant (taking orders from Reinhardt) and Rick Hunter (admiral). Scott's also a naval lt. cmdr, and references "army flyboys


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:14 pm
  

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If you're going to explain it, the first step is to accept that Robotech rank structures and assignments don't work how the real world does it currently. Luckily, Robotech gives plenty of story-based reasons why they wouldn't do things the way our world works.

And yes, as stated there are examples of individuals who don't have naval-style ranks commanding in space, starting with Colonel Maistroff.

And you have to account for the fact that Rick starts as, what, a corporal? And makes the jump to officer ranks as a lieutenant.

Then there's mention of third lieutenant in ep 20. And so on.

Its not an easy endeavor, and some internally contradictory uses of rank have to give way here or there inevitably. But otherwise you're just using whatever real-world rank structure you happen to like and pretending it fits Robotech, which is hardly less problematic, though certainly easier on the brain.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:47 pm
  

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I assumed that he was a Marine Major and became the man-in-charge. While ranks are important, when there is serious things going down, knowedge/cajones/level of experience can take priority. That’s how I ended up as MIC during a flooding casualty on my boat as a third class PO after the XO got confused and tried to order the wrong side of our seawater system shut. I turned back over with him when it was set right and didn’t make him feel bad about ******* up, but I wasn’t going to allow him or anyone else to make a bad situation worse.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:48 pm
  

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Such a situation would also suggest that the Pioneer Expedition was definitely NOT having things their way if they were sending a capital ship back under command of a Major.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:27 pm
  

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After thinking about this more, I don’t see how the Major could have been assigned as the commander of the ship initially and he must have taken over command at some point during the mission. (Bypassing the obvious reason that it’s just a creator oversight). Commanding officers are referred to as Captain by their men, regardless of actual rank. I had Captains who were Commanders, Captains, Admiral, and a first class petty officer (that was a small harbor patrol boat in Sasebo). If the Major was assigned command, he would be referred to as Captain. I think he assumed command either by virtue of ability or the actual CO was incapacitated. I’m imagining a Jim Bowie at the Alamo scenario.

An interesting idea would be that they had some form of casualty in route. Maybe a fire on the bridge killed off some of the command staff or there was an explosive decompression due to micrometeor impacts in Officer Country. Major Carpenter was in charge of the marine detachment and took command as the highest ranked officer left.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:04 pm
  

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While largely(and rightfully) dismissed at this point by the majority of fandom, the McKinneyist version is that Carpenter was all that could be spared to get a message back to Earth, what with T.R. Edwards polarizing the REF and a possible civil war looming. The higher-ranking officers were either suborned by Edwards, the Council, or the Sentinels-aligned Hunter/Lang faction, and were tensed, awaiting what fell out.

However, in that scenario, one has to buy a much smaller UEEF at Tirol.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:39 am
  

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taalismn wrote:
While largely(and rightfully) dismissed at this point by the majority of fandom, the McKinneyist version is that Carpenter was all that could be spared to get a message back to Earth, what with T.R. Edwards polarizing the REF and a possible civil war looming. The higher-ranking officers were either suborned by Edwards, the Council, or the Sentinels-aligned Hunter/Lang faction, and were tensed, awaiting what fell out.

However, in that scenario, one has to buy a much smaller UEEF at Tirol.

well in the McKinneyist scenario there was only the SDF-3 at Tyrol, with its couple score thousand people. which honestly, made everything the UEEF did in the sentinels worlds absurd (you are liberating entire planets with at best a few hundred mecha and a few thousand people., not to mention made the large fleets we saw in New Gen kinda difficult to explain.

Knowing Telepath wrote:
After thinking about this more, I don’t see how the Major could have been assigned as the commander of the ship initially and he must have taken over command at some point during the mission. (Bypassing the obvious reason that it’s just a creator oversight). Commanding officers are referred to as Captain by their men, regardless of actual rank. I had Captains who were Commanders, Captains, Admiral, and a first class petty officer (that was a small harbor patrol boat in Sasebo). If the Major was assigned command, he would be referred to as Captain. I think he assumed command either by virtue of ability or the actual CO was incapacitated. I’m imagining a Jim Bowie at the Alamo scenario.

An interesting idea would be that they had some form of casualty in route. Maybe a fire on the bridge killed off some of the command staff or there was an explosive decompression due to micrometeor impacts in Officer Country. Major Carpenter was in charge of the marine detachment and took command as the highest ranked officer left.

the issue there is that the ship was completely intact. Since a battleship would have at least an O-7 Rear Admiral (lower half) in charge. to get all the way down to an O-4, not to mention one that is not even in the chain of command, would require an incident that took out something like half the crew. not just on the bridge but in the CIC, engineering spaces, and even crew quarters. all at once. pretty much the entire command staff would have to be gone, including all the watches. that such an event could occur without damaging the ship at all is highly improbable. especially one that would happen, and the crew would not delay the mission to put into a near-earth UEG facility (we know that there are colonies and that the UEEF or ASC did have some deep space facilities near earth, we see reinforcements from such arrive during the masters saga) to crew back up. Further if a marine )-4 is the highest ranking crewman aboard ship, that means that no one higher than an )-3 survived.. which means pretty much half the crew, if not more, would have be be dead. including nearly all of the airwing, which we see in action when it arrives at earth. you'd also be out most of engineering, most of the gunnery crew, most of the flight deck personnell..

Sgt Anjay wrote:
If you're going to explain it, the first step is to accept that Robotech rank structures and assignments don't work how the real world does it currently. Luckily, Robotech gives plenty of story-based reasons why they wouldn't do things the way our world works.
And yes, as stated there are examples of individuals who don't have naval-style ranks commanding in space, starting with Colonel Maistroff.
And you have to account for the fact that Rick starts as, what, a corporal? And makes the jump to officer ranks as a lieutenant.
Then there's mention of third lieutenant in ep 20. And so on.
Its not an easy endeavor, and some internally contradictory uses of rank have to give way here or there inevitably. But otherwise you're just using whatever real-world rank structure you happen to like and pretending it fits Robotech, which is hardly less problematic, though certainly easier on the brain.

perhaps, but that is the Doylist explanation. i'm trying to figure out the Watsonian perspective here. in setting, the people don't know they are in a show after all.
and actually most of those ranks do fit..
i'd have to check the show again to see if the rank Rick starts at was mentioned, but even if it is a Corporal, that doesn't mean much.. he might have been forced to join up as an Enlisted soldier, then seek a commission once in. that isn't uncommon when someone lacks required education requirements. considering that the ship's CAG could pull a few strings for him, and he had a stellar record as a civilian pilot, getting into OTS and the fighter pilot program probably wouldn't be hard. especially if they were hard pressed to replace pilot losses.

And Colonel Maistroff is a thorny issue because we don't actually know what position he filled.. given that he seems to speak on behalf of the UEG government in many of his appearances, and routinely makes pronouncements amounting to policy decisions in a manner which suggests he is used to them being obeyed, he might actually be something like a political officer, a direct representative of the UEG. not part of the usual chain of command but having broad authority due to his position. which might explain why he was put in charge of the bridge a few times.. a political officer would have that authority, regardless of rank, and since the SDF-1 was out of contact with earth most of the time, what else was he going to do? it wasn't like he was going to engage in Barratry after all. he had as much vested interest in getting the ship safely back home as Gloval and the rest did.

and 3rd Lieutenant is an actual rank, used in some military forces around the world. mostly non-NATO services. Russia for one uses it, and since russia likely was one of the major nations forming the United Earth Government, elements of their rank system might have been included to more easily integrate the forces into the UEDF. (the 3rd Lieutenant rank is generally equated to the same level as the US's Ensign, but since the USabolished the rank of Ensign in 1862, it is hard to tell if they would be comparable.)

ShadowLogan wrote:
What if ships could have two crew "organizational" approaches: Air Force (Star Gate style) and Navy (Star Trek style)? This is sort of supported by the show given:
-SDF-1 was naval crew ranks
-ASC had their task force(s) commanded by General Emerson
-Pioneer Mission was commanded by General Reinhardt, so Major Carpenter is not out of place
-NG arc had General Reinhardt in command of the SDF-4, we also had naval ranks for Grant (taking orders from Reinhardt) and Rick Hunter (admiral). Scott's also a naval lt. cmdr, and references "army flyboys


The ASC using a more 'airforce' system would actualyl make some sense.. the ASC began as a planet base regional force, remember. they wouldn't have gotten starship until well after they reunified with the UEDF, probably not until well after the SDF-3 left and the ASC subsumed the UEDF into itself. so for msot of their history, the TASC would have been a ground based transatmospheric service.. an 'air force'. further, the ASC started with the survivors of Antarctica base.. a location unlikely to have much in the way of naval personnel, but likely to have UEDF Army, Marine, and Air Force detachments. they then absorbed a lot of South American forces and personnel.. which generally would be army and air force types. any 'navy' contingents there would be blue-water types, not vacuum.

and the Pioneer Mission included both the SDF-3 and the colony efforts, according to HG's current canon. so General Reinhardt not being navy might not be a indicator of anything. he might well have just been the Officer in charge at the time at Tirol (the Hunters in the field commanding the fleet) or might just be the main intel officer, and thus the one tasked to draft the message and briefing sent to earth.

as for the General Reinhardt as reflex Point (who given his apparent age in new gen, prelude, and shadow chronicles, is probably not the same one that sent the message to earth) seemed to have been concerned mainly with the ground forces during the battle, as well as the overall timing of the plan, suggesting he may not have been in charge of the SDF-3, rather he was in charge of all the Divisions involved in the battle, ground and space, and thus had operational control of the entire task force while Admiral hunter was away. (especially since Admiral Hunter gave instructions to proceed without him.. basically giving General Reinhardt the authority he might not have otherwise had to order naval personnel around.)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:08 am
  

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Ok guys seriously there is no reason to over think this so much or to even require an in universe explanation.

There are multiple examples over the series of non naval ranks being in command. (Col Maistroff, general Emerson, major carpenter, col Wolfe, and general Reinhardt)

The original source materials typically also used air force ranks (global was a brigadier general, Roy was a major, stick was a lt)

Lastly if anything they SHOULD be using air force ranks not naval, despite what tv and movies would have us believe.

Sometimes things are what they are. There's no need to find an explanation.

Especially when the creators themselves put no actual thought into it to begin with.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:06 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:

Its better to not worry about it. It's robotech who knows what they were thinking at the time.


Or smoking, but still it is annoying that such a fine anime has so many continuity holes and what not.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:19 pm
  

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Annoying, but not at all surprising.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:28 pm
  

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Knowing Telepath wrote:
After thinking about this more, I don’t see how the Major could have been assigned as the commander of the ship initially and he must have taken over command at some point during the mission. (Bypassing the obvious reason that it’s just a creator oversight). Commanding officers are referred to as Captain by their men, regardless of actual rank. I had Captains who were Commanders, Captains, Admiral, and a first class petty officer (that was a small harbor patrol boat in Sasebo). If the Major was assigned command, he would be referred to as Captain. I think he assumed command either by virtue of ability or the actual CO was incapacitated. I’m imagining a Jim Bowie at the Alamo scenario.

An interesting idea would be that they had some form of casualty in route. Maybe a fire on the bridge killed off some of the command staff or there was an explosive decompression due to micrometeor impacts in Officer Country. Major Carpenter was in charge of the marine detachment and took command as the highest ranked officer left.

the issue there is that the ship was completely intact. Since a battleship would have at least an O-7 Rear Admiral (lower half) in charge. to get all the way down to an O-4, not to mention one that is not even in the chain of command, would require an incident that took out something like half the crew. not just on the bridge but in the CIC, engineering spaces, and even crew quarters. all at once. pretty much the entire command staff would have to be gone, including all the watches. that such an event could occur without damaging the ship at all is highly improbable. especially one that would happen, and the crew would not delay the mission to put into a near-earth UEG facility (we know that there are colonies and that the UEEF or ASC did have some deep space facilities near earth, we see reinforcements from such arrive during the masters saga) to crew back up. Further if a marine )-4 is the highest ranking crewman aboard ship, that means that no one higher than an )-3 survived.. which means pretty much half the crew, if not more, would have be be dead. including nearly all of the airwing, which we see in action when it arrives at earth. you'd also be out most of engineering, most of the gunnery crew, most of the flight deck personnell..


I didn’t say he was the highest ranked officer left in command. I said he might have been the highest ranked officer who TOOK command. As I said, I took control of a casualty away from an 0-4 when I was an E-4, because he didn’t know what he was doing. Also, I think you are drastically over assuming the number of officers of command rank aboard ships at sea. My submarine had a crew of 150, incuding riders, and we had about 18 officers. One was the CHOP (supply officer), so no matter his rank, he is never in charge. It’s the same on CVN’s now. Many times the engineering officer (Reactor Officer) is the same rank as the Captain, but he will never ever ever be allowed to command that ship. The idea of a casualty wiping out Officer Country is actually kind of likely. A decompression could occur through a small hole which could have been repaired in route. All high ranking officers have staterooms near each other. Also no one of departmental rank or above stand watch except for proficiency. EOOW and OOD are for Officer NUBs. They could have had an officer meeting with the CO in the wardroom and boom, bulkhead blew out. Chaos. Major takes command to finish the mission.

Otheriwise you’d have to admit that he was given command initially or the creators just pull ranks out of nowhere to sound good (which is actually the most likely)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:42 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
Ok. in Southern cross, a UEEF Tokugawa class battleship (callsign 'recon-1', IIRC, actual name not known) arrives at earth in the middle of a battle between the ASC and the Robotech masters. (Ep 47 "Outsiders") the ship is lost in action, but the crew managed to escape in escape pods, including the person who appeared to be in command of the ship, who was giving orders on the bridge, and the crew deferred to.

that person was Major Carpenter, per dialog.

the problem i have is that major is not a naval rank (which the UEEF seems to follow). it is an army/airforce/marine rank.
further, as ranks go it is literally one of the lower officer ranks. it is literally the lowest of the field grade officer ranks (those ranks which would be assigned missions taking them away from contacts for long periods of time.) and even then, that is only in some IRL military forces, not all of them.
the nearest naval rank is a Lieutenant Commander

so what is a non-naval O-4 doing commanding a naval battleship? a Lt.CMDR would only rate a light vessel, like a Frigate in real life, or a support vessel. a Marine or Army Major would not even be in command at all. especially not in the middle of a battle.

so yeah, a bit of a weird rank for what he is. especially since he was sent by the UEEF to bear a message to the ASC about the UEEF's status. sending a Junior Officer to carry a message to General Leonard (who is basically a Five Star General rank wise, an O-11..) and the Civilian Government.


i've occasionally wondered if we shouldn't be assuming he was a Major General (an O-8) in the Marines, and that he could give commands on the ship because he had command of the entire mission. and that Leonard either just misunderstood the rank, or was intentionally using a Junior officer's rank to address him in an attempt to show dominance somehow.


You make it sound like field officers are the lowest. Company grade officers are the lowest and O4s are normally given corvette or smaller however are we sure that he wasn't the XO... more likely he was the commanding officer of the marine detachment on the ship and something happened to the naval officers on the way to Earth?

Besides your bothered by that when privates are piloting not JUST fighters but Veritechs?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:58 pm
  

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Why is it assumed that the "Naval" ranks are actually not Billets instead of ranks? Roy and Claudia being Lieutenant Commander's could easily be their Billet, with their ranks being Major and/or Lieutenant Colonel. And yea, as for Major Carpenter, a while ago I started thinking of him as Major General John Carpenter. Incidentally, according to Yui Yuasa, the lineart list him as Lieutenant Commander Lombard (IIRC) who is in command of the Medium Battleship (no class name, of course). So, the Tokugawa-class should be a Medium Battleship. I guess a Heavy Battleship would be one with a Reflex Cannon...


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:46 pm
  

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There is a difference between rank and assignment. While typically certain assignments only go to those of certain rank, under peculiar circumstances, peculiar assignments may come about.

As was noted in the McKinny-verse, the Carpenter mission was launched at a time when the UEEF was experiencing the build up to a civil war. As this included a number of conspiracies working against each other, it could be reasonable to believe a select crew loyal to one of the factions could be assigned this mission. If it so happened that the most senior officer available in this faction was under-qualified, so be it.

While the exact details of the McKinny-verse are no longer cannon, the broad strokes of the Sentinels campaign still hold. So conspiracy and factionalization within the UEEF could still be the reason a mid-grade officer had such an important assignment.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:25 pm
  

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Why is it assumed that the "Naval" ranks are actually not Billets instead of ranks? Roy and Claudia being Lieutenant Commander's could easily be their Billet, with their ranks being Major and/or Lieutenant Colonel. And yea, as for Major Carpenter, a while ago I started thinking of him as Major General John Carpenter. Incidentally, according to Yui Yuasa, the lineart list him as Lieutenant Commander Lombard (IIRC) who is in command of the Medium Battleship (no class name, of course). So, the Tokugawa-class should be a Medium Battleship. I guess a Heavy Battleship would be one with a Reflex Cannon...


nice to see someone else thinks that "Major General Carpenter" is a good compromise to the issue. him being a Marine officer and being in command because he was the commander of the entire earth return mission would fit the evidence.

well the light/medium/heavy distinctions with something like battleships is largely more of a record keeping thing.. but yeah. the Tokugawa class was the largest non-SDF ships earth built. i'd imagine a 'heavy battleship' would be the SDF-3 and later the SDF-4. plus probably any refit zentraedi ships the United Earth Forces had in service. still makes it hard to imagine a Junior officer being in command.. no matter what branch he was in. i could see a O-4 being in charge of say a Banshee or a Garfish. but not one of the biggest ships in earth service

and i have issues with the idea of a junior officer inheriting command.. as mentioned, to take out enough officers in the chain of command that a junior officer ends up in charge would require such a severe loss of life it seems unlikely the ship would survive, much less survive intact.. and there is absolutely no way that a Junior officer would just 'take command' in the sort of way that Knowing Telepath has suggested.. the scenario he proposes would only work for a temporary situation. like a specific battle. at which point Maxim 2 applies.. "A Sergeant in motion outranks a Lieutenant who doesn't know what's going on". mid battle, if the command staff was incapacitated, a Major might be able to take over on the bridge and give orders to ensure the survival of the ship. but there is absolutely zero chance that he would not be relieved by a higher ranking officer from another department aboard ship (as per the chain of command) as soon as the battle was over, and an almost 100% chance that a review board of the highest surviving officers aboard would be convened to determine if his actions were legal. and even if the crew didn't, he'd be in front of the board the moment the ship made it back to port.
but the dialog does not support this idea. the crew defers to him as their commander, it is his choice to engage in combat (he was giving orders before the battle even began, showing up on the bridge when the enemy ships appear on sensors), and the ship fights the battle without any hits to the bridge.

and a junior officer cannot take command when there are higher ranking officers available. to do so would be Mutiny.


Jefffar wrote:
There is a difference between rank and assignment. While typically certain assignments only go to those of certain rank, under peculiar circumstances, peculiar assignments may come about.

As was noted in the McKinny-verse, the Carpenter mission was launched at a time when the UEEF was experiencing the build up to a civil war. As this included a number of conspiracies working against each other, it could be reasonable to believe a select crew loyal to one of the factions could be assigned this mission. If it so happened that the most senior officer available in this faction was under-qualified, so be it.

While the exact details of the McKinny-verse are no longer cannon, the broad strokes of the Sentinels campaign still hold. So conspiracy and factionalization within the UEEF could still be the reason a mid-grade officer had such an important assignment.


the civil war idea works for the McKinney timeline, where the entire invid war ended before the mid 2030's and Edwards kicked off his civil war in the early 2030's.
but with prelude we now know that Edwards didn't kick off his uprising until 2040, more than a decade after Carpenter's ship would had to to leave Tirol. in HG's current canon, Carpenter's message that the UEEF was busy and couldn't provide any help would have been in relation to having to fight to liberate the worlds of the Masters Empire and the Sentinels.. rather than a message about internal divisions within the expeditionary force, as the McKinney timeline had it.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:13 pm
  

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Actually, the revised timeline still has Edwards being outed in the late 20s. One change is that he manages to cripple the SDF-3 as he escapes; and the UEEF then spends the next decade or so rebuilding.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:33 am
  

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actually the Prelude to shadow chronicles comic, which specifically shows those events, depicts said events occurring only a few years before the battle of Reflex Point, which puts it in the early 40's. it ends with the events immediately before the film (which is set mid 2044) and the transition labels for timeskips are in 1 year increments.. putting Edward's revolt at least 1 year before reflex point, possibly 1.5-2 depending on the sometimes vague travel times implied in a few scenes.

if you are relying on the UEEF marines sourcebook timeline, stop. that timeline is all screwed up.


edit: adjusted the year details to be more accurate.. i went back and double checked my notes and even speed red the comic to be sure of the specifics.. but the events of the coup are consistently said to be about a year before the battles of optera.. and those battles are shown to be at most a few months before reflex point in 2044.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:40 am
  

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My favorite part about these boards is that people who have never been in the military tell combat veterans how the military works. “I’ve never served on a combat ship at war, but you navy veteran are wrong about how the chain of command works.” Keep doing you guy


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:22 am
  

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Why is it assumed that the "Naval" ranks are actually not Billets instead of ranks? Roy and Claudia being Lieutenant Commander's could easily be their Billet, with their ranks being Major and/or Lieutenant Colonel. And yea, as for Major Carpenter, a while ago I started thinking of him as Major General John Carpenter. Incidentally, according to Yui Yuasa, the lineart list him as Lieutenant Commander Lombard (IIRC) who is in command of the Medium Battleship (no class name, of course). So, the Tokugawa-class should be a Medium Battleship. I guess a Heavy Battleship would be one with a Reflex Cannon...

Since when is Lt. Cmdr. a billet? Captain, Commander, CO, XO, CAG those are billets I've never heard Lt. as a billet nor are Admiral or Ensign... unless as a joke some one becomes the national Ensign because they've been ran up a flag pole.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:52 am
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Since when is Lt. Cmdr. a billet? Captain, Commander, CO, XO, CAG those are billets I've never heard Lt. as a billet nor are Admiral or Ensign... unless as a joke some one becomes the national Ensign because they've been ran up a flag pole.


Well, for one thing, Naval ranks aren't applicable in real-world space operations. Commander is a title, not a rank. Almost all air forces around the world have outer space as their purview. Its the only way to make sense of Rick Hunter being a Major General in The Sentinels but also an Admiral by the time of the 2nd Robotech War.....


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 pm
  

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Since when is Lt. Cmdr. a billet? Captain, Commander, CO, XO, CAG those are billets I've never heard Lt. as a billet nor are Admiral or Ensign... unless as a joke some one becomes the national Ensign because they've been ran up a flag pole.


Well, for one thing, Naval ranks aren't applicable in real-world space operations. Commander is a title, not a rank. Almost all air forces around the world have outer space as their purview. Its the only way to make sense of Rick Hunter being a Major General in The Sentinels but also an Admiral by the time of the 2nd Robotech War.....

They're as applicable as they are to naval operations

Maybe they use a different rank structure? Commander and Captain are both tanks and bullets in the navy. Maybe Rick went from being a Marine to a Naval officer he went from being in command of atmospheric operations to taking Lisa's position since she became an ambasador?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:28 am
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Maybe Rick went from being a Marine to a Naval officer he went from being in command of atmospheric operations to taking Lisa's position since she became an ambasador?


Uh, no. Rick Hunter was never a Marine. His rank and title are given as Major General and Commander-in-Chief of the Robotech Expeditionary Air Force. Now, naturally, his title as written is meaningless: a Major General as the highest ranked Air Force officer? No. However, he is STILL a Major General and he is still not a Marine. As I have repeatedly pointed out, I will reverse my stance if anyone can provide ANY Primary Canon source wrt to there being UEF Marines (REF, ASC or otherwise). The closest we ever get is the Tactical Space Corps, mentioned BY NAME. We know that Dennis Brown is a TSC pilot (he is shown wearing not only a variant uniform from Marie Crystal's TASC one, but also TSC armor while piloting an Ajax in Mind Games).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:42 am
  

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Maybe Rick went from being a Marine to a Naval officer he went from being in command of atmospheric operations to taking Lisa's position since she became an ambasador?


Uh, no. Rick Hunter was never a Marine. His rank and title are given as Major General and Commander-in-Chief of the Robotech Expeditionary Air Force. Now, naturally, his title as written is meaningless: a Major General as the highest ranked Air Force officer? No. However, he is STILL a Major General and he is still not a Marine. As I have repeatedly pointed out, I will reverse my stance if anyone can provide ANY Primary Canon source wrt to there being UEF Marines (REF, ASC or otherwise). The closest we ever get is the Tactical Space Corps, mentioned BY NAME. We know that Dennis Brown is a TSC pilot (he is shown wearing not only a variant uniform from Marie Crystal's TASC one, but also TSC armor while piloting an Ajax in Mind Games).

I don't think his actual service branch (AF, Marine, Army, Navy) is ever identified in the show, his non-officer ranks are IINM shared by 2 or 3 service branches. IIRC his officer ranks are generic (shared by all), though he might have had a naval rank of lt.cmdr or cmdr in dialogue.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:13 pm
  

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I always liked the 'One Command Structure' an amalgamation of ranks - you can find them in the old RDF Sourcebook.

I also like the idea that folks who had ranks prior to the formation of the RDF were able to keep them (honorary or whathaveyou).


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:31 am
  

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I would just like to toss in that at least in the US military there is a "Two up one down" policy.
I.e. a person can be put in a position up to two grades higher or one grade lower than their actual rank and grade.
Thus while I was a Specialist E-4 I was put in an E-6 Slot as a shop NCOIC since there wasn't anyone else qualified to run the shop. Similarly our Chief was a WO-3p, in a WO-2 slot.

Thus an O-4 Major could easily be slotted into an O-6 slot. And that doesn't take into account brevet promotion, which would only count for the brevetting duration and not apply to their regular rank.
Thus if Carpenter had a brevet to O-5 (Lt. Col) he could easily be in an O-7 slot while having a permeant rank of O-4.
Unusual? Yes, but possible. And if your short on people to send back you might just do something like that.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:31 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
I would just like to toss in that at least in the US military there is a "Two up one down" policy.
I.e. a person can be put in a position up to two grades higher or one grade lower than their actual rank and grade.
Thus while I was a Specialist E-4 I was put in an E-6 Slot as a shop NCOIC since there wasn't anyone else qualified to run the shop. Similarly our Chief was a WO-3p, in a WO-2 slot.

Thus an O-4 Major could easily be slotted into an O-6 slot. And that doesn't take into account brevet promotion, which would only count for the brevetting duration and not apply to their regular rank.
Thus if Carpenter had a brevet to O-5 (Lt. Col) he could easily be in an O-7 slot while having a permeant rank of O-4.
Unusual? Yes, but possible. And if your short on people to send back you might just do something like that.


And then there are instances like Ensign Nimitz.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:05 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
the problem i have is that major is not a naval rank (which the UEEF seems to follow). it is an army/airforce/marine rank.

Rank systems in general are presented inconsistently in the Robotech series as a whole... no Navy I'm aware of has Corporals, Sergeants, or Generals of any stripe.

This is probably a legacy of Robotech's famously rushed adaptation of Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross. Naval ranks weren't used in any of the three original shows, in a case of "truth in television". The original name and rank for that character was, IIRC, Colonel George Lombard. His aide was Major Robert. It's very likely that they simply mixed up the ranks between the translation and rewrite, and accidentally gave Colonel Lombard his aide's rank.



GundamChief wrote:
so what is a non-naval O-4 doing commanding a naval battleship? a Lt.CMDR would only rate a light vessel, like a Frigate in real life, or a support vessel.

You actually have your answer right there.

Canonically, the Tokugawa-class in Robotech had been deemed unfit for frontline combat service by the UEEF and retasked for use as logistical support and transport vessels. Major Carpenter's ship might've been huge, but it was a support vessel as far as the UEEF was concerned (and part of a transport squadron). Likely the UEEF felt it would be a waste to assign a higher-ranking officer to command the ship because those more experienced officers were needed on ships that could fight effectively on the front lines.

(Or, there is the even less kind interpretation Major Carpenter's troops were the ones sent back because they were the ones the UEEF felt would be least missed on the front lines of their war with the Invid regent.)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:04 am
  

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We might finally have an answer to the Pioneer Mission and its lack of return during TRM:
https://robotech.com/roboverse/mecha/sdf-3

It does nothing to help here, but it might be interesting to know.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:28 pm
  

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Interesting that it describes a fleet and a colony.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:52 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
We might finally have an answer to the Pioneer Mission and its lack of return during TRM:
https://robotech.com/roboverse/mecha/sdf-3

It does nothing to help here, but it might be interesting to know.

It's not exactly a new reason... it's the same one they've been using since the reboot seventeen years ago, if not earlier. IIRC the only pseudocanon source that gave any other answer was the Sentinels comics, which said the SDF-3's fold system was damaged by the Invid shortly after its arrival at Tirol.


Jefffar wrote:
Interesting that it describes a fleet and a colony.

Not as separate entities, though... it describes the expansion of the UEEF's logistical support group as becoming so large that it effectively constituted a mobile colony in deep space. That would seem to support the dialog from the New Generation's first episode, where the crew of Scott's Horizont identifies as all having been born out in space "on a robotech ship".

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:09 pm
  

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the issue with the Tokugawa class being "not a frontline ship" or a support ship.. support ships are not classifeid as battleships, and 2nd line ships wouldn't be used for an important long range mission like heading deep into Invid territory to track down and capture/kill T.R.Edward and his followers on the Icarus.
and if a class isn't a 2nd line support ship in 2043, when the design is nearly thirty years old, it sure as hell wouldn't be one in 2030 when it is still in its prime.

and if the UEEF has a large fleet along, they wouldn't be short on people.. especially since it appears that they absorbed most of the population of the tirolian empire worlds they liberate, and brought along a lot of zentraedi as indicated in various supplementary works like prelude. so it seems unlikely that they would be desperate enough to send a O-4 in an O-7's billet. and if he'd been field promoted, he wouldn't have been addressed as his old rank, he'd be addressed as his current rank.

him being a Major General, with Leonard intentionally flubbing the rank as an intimidation tactic, fits better and it sure as heck fits leonard's on screen personality.

Jefffar wrote:
Interesting that it describes a fleet and a colony.

it is riddled with contradictions to current canon though (for example, we know that the SDF-3 did not leave "space station equality" in 2044, it left Space Station Liberty.. and not to go to earth, but to go to a system in the nearby Omicron sector to test a Nuetron-S warhead, with the reason it didn't show up at earth being said test going massively different than expected, followed by the Haydonite's attacking.)

that Tirol was not in Fantoma would seem to contradict multiple sources from prelude, art of shadow chronicles ,and various other materials too.. i suspect what was meant was that the masters themselves were not present (having been aboard their motherships for years and already on their way to earth)

combined with the various spelling and grammar errors, and i'd guess that was copied from an old WIP page from the earlier days of robotech.com, before shadow chronicles or Prelude came out.

as for the colony.. HG has established that there are colonies in dialog in Prelude, and confirmed it with mentions in the art of shadow chronicles. the Invasion comic even set the groundwork for colonies existing by establishing that colonies are part of the primary goal of the Pioneer mission (aka the UEEF)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:30 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
the issue with the Tokugawa class being "not a frontline ship" or a support ship.. support ships are not classifeid as battleships, [...]

Er... would now be a bad time to point out that the official Robotech materials consistently refer to the Tokugawa-class as an aircraft carrier?

As a rule, you generally don't see many battleship classes out there that have their main weapons identified as "aircraft" and their actual guns described as being both "mostly defensive" and lacking in firepower or "extremely vulnerable in a stand up fight". :wink:


glitterboy2098 wrote:
and 2nd line ships wouldn't be used for an important long range mission like heading deep into Invid territory to track down and capture/kill T.R.Edward and his followers on the Icarus.

Unless, of course, that was the only ship available, it was fresh out of a retrofit that aimed to improve its combat effectiveness, and the enemy it was to be sent after is only known to possess a single lightly-armed escort ship with minimal air power.


glitterboy2098 wrote:
and if a class isn't a 2nd line support ship in 2043, when the design is nearly thirty years old, it sure as hell wouldn't be one in 2030 when it is still in its prime.

But it canonically IS a second line support ship in 2043... and earlier as well. They were pulled off the battle line by the UEEF brass and reassigned to transport duties because they were at an "extreme disadvantage" in any kind of stand up fight.

Which, of course, bears out rather nicely when you account for the most advanced example of the class getting one-shotted by an escort a fraction of its size without managing to return fire or launch even a single aircraft in anger.


glitterboy2098 wrote:
and if the UEEF has a large fleet along, they wouldn't be short on people.

An assumption which doesn't tally with Major Carpenter's dialog in Ep47, where he tells Leonard and Emerson point blank that the UEEF can't spare any further troops and that General Reinhardt can offer them "only [his] prayers".


glitterboy2098 wrote:
especially since it appears that they absorbed most of the population of the tirolian empire worlds they liberate, and brought along a lot of zentraedi as indicated in various supplementary works like prelude.

Except that none of that is ever actually depicted... and may not be canon.

The only aliens ever shown to operate in partnership with the UEEF are the double handful of ambassadors from the liberated planets, and RTSC itself points to there being no aliens in the UEEF's forces given that UEEF troops are surprised that they have a "half-alien" in the UEEF and casually engage in racist (speciesist?) talk about the merits of alien genocide.


glitterboy2098 wrote:
so it seems unlikely that they would be desperate enough to send a O-4 in an O-7's billet. and if he'd been field promoted, he wouldn't have been addressed as his old rank, he'd be addressed as his current rank.

him being a Major General, with Leonard intentionally flubbing the rank as an intimidation tactic, fits better and it sure as heck fits leonard's on screen personality.

There is another issue with your reasoning besides the faulty premises above I've already covered... that, when Major Carpenter introduces himself without Leonard present, he still identifies solely as "Major John Carpenter" (to Dana). Even his subordinates refer to him by that rank.

If he were a Major General, properly they would be calling him "General".

Now... if his ship is the rear-echelon support vessel deemed worthless for front line service that canon material says it is, then having an O-4 in command makes a lot more sense. What he's commanding is just a hideously overbuilt transport ship or at best a picket patrol ship.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:35 pm
  

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Or of course there is the simple solution that the rank system in the REF is different than the rank systems in our current militaries.

Which actually we 100% know is true since the known ranks of people and their promotions and positions do not fit any possible real world rank table.

As such it seems pretty clear that what "major" means to them might not mean the same to us.
Especially if they have something similar to the policies of some nations in that you might have different ranks in different branches simultaneously.
Thus you might be an Army Major and a Navy Captain. Depending on various factors you would use one rank or the other.

I could easily come up with a perfectly logical way to justify the scene and make it support any set of preconceptions I desire.
If I want it to be a first like battle ship or an obsolete second string support ship I can make it so by simply emphasizing some parts and deemphasizing others.
I want him to be high rank or low rank... same thing.

At the end of the day we have these facts
A ship shows up
It has someone who is identified as a Major in command
Everything else is speculatively filling in the blanks with supposition based mostly on what you want the final result to be.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:09 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
Interesting that it describes a fleet and a colony.

it is riddled with contradictions to current canon though (for example, we know that the SDF-3 did not leave "space station equality" in 2044, it left Space Station Liberty.. and not to go to earth, but to go to a system in the nearby Omicron sector to test a Nuetron-S warhead, with the reason it didn't show up at earth being said test going massively different than expected, followed by the Haydonite's attacking.)

And here I was reading it as: We have a second Robotech Factory - Space Station Equality, and Space Station Liberty. Let alone a small roaming colony.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:07 am
  

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Tiree wrote:
And here I was reading it as: We have a second Robotech Factory - Space Station Equality, and Space Station Liberty. Let alone a small roaming colony.

Well, they kinda do.

While the animated series always refers to the factory satellite as if it were the one and only, AotSC does indicate there were others and that the UEEF had seized several over the years.

(Though, as this does look like it was written with legacy/depricated lore, it's possible this is assuming the space stations are human-built constructs.)

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:41 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
Or of course there is the simple solution that the rank system in the REF is different than the rank systems in our current militaries.

Which actually we 100% know is true since the known ranks of people and their promotions and positions do not fit any possible real world rank table.

As such it seems pretty clear that what "major" means to them might not mean the same to us.
Especially if they have something similar to the policies of some nations in that you might have different ranks in different branches simultaneously.
Thus you might be an Army Major and a Navy Captain. Depending on various factors you would use one rank or the other.

I could easily come up with a perfectly logical way to justify the scene and make it support any set of preconceptions I desire.
If I want it to be a first like battle ship or an obsolete second string support ship I can make it so by simply emphasizing some parts and deemphasizing others.
I want him to be high rank or low rank... same thing.

At the end of the day we have these facts
A ship shows up
It has someone who is identified as a Major in command
Everything else is speculatively filling in the blanks with supposition based mostly on what you want the final result to be.


What?! There is no example in US DOD where military branches have different names for their ranks let alone change the position of a given name... :wink: Oh wait almost every branch has different enlisted structures. And a captain is a captain is a captain... unless it's in the USN. :)

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:54 pm
  

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Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
Zer0 Kay wrote:
What?! There is no example in US DOD where military branches have different names for their ranks let alone change the position of a given name... :wink: Oh wait almost every branch has different enlisted structures. And a captain is a captain is a captain... unless it's in the USN. :)

It might be a sound argument, if only Robotech hadn't taken pains to show that the UEDF and its offshoot, the UEEF, were a merger of the real world's militaries. (Well, mostly America's...)

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:23 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9419
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
What?! There is no example in US DOD where military branches have different names for their ranks let alone change the position of a given name... :wink: Oh wait almost every branch has different enlisted structures. And a captain is a captain is a captain... unless it's in the USN. :)

It might be a sound argument, if only Robotech hadn't taken pains to show that the UEDF and its offshoot, the UEEF, were a merger of the real world's militaries. (Well, mostly America's...)

Yeah a merger.
It would almost be as if they might bring in more than one rank structure or something.
And of course there could even be some weirdness involved to accommodate various former national situations.

Almost as like that.

Now if someone has a canon copy of the full rank and grade structure charts for the various United Earth Forces there could be some movement on this.
Lacking that we are speculating on how a black box works and more or less just picking a conclusion and then going back to figure out a way to make said conclusion work.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:38 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:59 pm
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Location: Snoqualmie, WA
eliakon wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
What?! There is no example in US DOD where military branches have different names for their ranks let alone change the position of a given name... :wink: Oh wait almost every branch has different enlisted structures. And a captain is a captain is a captain... unless it's in the USN. :)

It might be a sound argument, if only Robotech hadn't taken pains to show that the UEDF and its offshoot, the UEEF, were a merger of the real world's militaries. (Well, mostly America's...)

Yeah a merger.
It would almost be as if they might bring in more than one rank structure or something.
And of course there could even be some weirdness involved to accommodate various former national situations.

Almost as like that.

Now if someone has a canon copy of the full rank and grade structure charts for the various United Earth Forces there could be some movement on this.
Lacking that we are speculating on how a black box works and more or less just picking a conclusion and then going back to figure out a way to make said conclusion work.


What :eek: they would never do that. All military branches combined into a single combat command rather than being branches are all going to choose the USN rank structure because it is obviously superior :roll:

Wonder how long that meeting took with all the military bureaucrats.

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Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:40 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:59 pm
Posts: 12949
Location: Snoqualmie, WA
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
What?! There is no example in US DOD where military branches have different names for their ranks let alone change the position of a given name... :wink: Oh wait almost every branch has different enlisted structures. And a captain is a captain is a captain... unless it's in the USN. :)

It might be a sound argument, if only Robotech hadn't taken pains to show that the UEDF and its offshoot, the UEEF, were a merger of the real world's militaries. (Well, mostly America's...)

Wait, wait,wait, wait, wait... why am I hearing the G.I. Joe theme song? :)

_________________
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper

BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,
Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:44 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5002
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Wait, wait,wait, wait, wait... why am I hearing the G.I. Joe theme song? :)

You sure it's not just your neighbor singing in the shower?



eliakon wrote:
Yeah a merger.
It would almost be as if they might bring in more than one rank structure or something.

You're assuming that everything merged into a single branch of service... which was not the case in the original shows[1] and clearly also isn't the case in Robotech as we have Admirals and Generals, Captains and Colonels, Majors and Lieutenant Commanders running around at the same time.


eliakon wrote:
And of course there could even be some weirdness involved to accommodate various former national situations.

By in large, the rank systems used by the world's militaries share a certain uniformity on most matters. It's mostly fiddly bits like the classification of warrant officers, the local terminology variations (e.g. leftenant vs lieutenant), and the relatively rare bits of cultural superstition[2] that trip people up.


eliakon wrote:
Now if someone has a canon copy of the full rank and grade structure charts for the various United Earth Forces there could be some movement on this.

We have enough data to reach a reasonable conclusion without a full listing... moon logic what-ifs that ignore the fact that these military organizations are extensions of modern militaries aren't exactly grounds for ignoring the available data.


eliakon wrote:
Lacking that we are speculating on how a black box works and more or less just picking a conclusion and then going back to figure out a way to make said conclusion work.

"A black box", is it? There's really no mystery to this stuff, or to how it ended up this way, if you know where to look for the answers.

The reason Robotech's rank system came out a bit shonky in the series was it was rewritten from rushed, sloppy translation work and the rewriting itself was also done in great haste.

The only ranks spoken aloud in the first few episodes of Macross are those of commissioned officers. Since the short-form terminology for commissioned officer ranks is the same for all service branches in Japanese and the translator didn't get access to the production materials, it would've been very easy to miss some of the minor linguistic cues that indicated the UN Spacy was a Space Army rather than a Space Navy as was typical of so many American SF works. It wasn't until Hikaru's first sortie that an enlisted rank popped up in dialog... and just their luck, it was a rank term (軍曹, Gunsou, in American terms a Staff Sergeant) unique to the Army style rank system. Two more cropped up a few episodes later, when Hikaru was given a commission and became platoon leader.

So due to not reading ahead, you had dialog that'd already gone for Navy ranks for officers ("Captain" Gloval, "Lt. Commander" Fokker, etc.) and a rather tortured set of terms for the junior officers based on archaic/discontinued naval terminology: "acting sublieutenant", "sublieutenant" and "lieutenant" becoming 3rd, 2nd, and 1st Lieutenant, with new dialog and onscreen text coming in that showed army ranks instead. They couldn't spare the time or funds to go back and redo it, so they had to live with it.

They seem to have largely given up in frustration and just gone with army ranks all across the board in the Masters Saga... even referencing the overall commander of the UEEF's mission as a General rather than an Admiral. George Lombard/Jonathan Carpenter seems to have been more an innocent mistake than anything, swapping his rank for his aide's.

Robotech II: the Sentinels at least tried to set the record straight, showing a clear division between a ground forces group commanded by a Major General and shipboard contingent under an Admiral, with ranks to match on both sides.

Palladium's "UEDF Marines" appears to be an attempt to force the RT TV series into the standard real world rank system the originals enjoyed.



Zer0 Kay wrote:
What :eek: they would never do that.

... and by all accounts they didn't. And everyone lived happily ever after, until most of them died messily fighting space lobstermen who invaded space Rome.




[1] The original Super Dimension Fortress Macross tops the charts for this one, with the UN Forces having a whopping SEVEN branches of service. Four for planetary defense (UN Army, UN Air Force, UN Navy, UN Marine Corps) and three for space operations (UN Spacy, UN Spacy Air Force, UN Spacy Marine Corps).

[*] e.g. Japan having only three grades of General instead of the traditional four, as the number four is an unlucky one in Japanese culture. It's worth noting that two of the three originals visibly bucked this trend by featuring Brigadier Generals in their spacefuture military organizations.

_________________
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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:52 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9419
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Yeah a merger.
It would almost be as if they might bring in more than one rank structure or something.

You're assuming that everything merged into a single branch of service... which was not the case in the original shows[1] and clearly also isn't the case in Robotech as we have Admirals and Generals, Captains and Colonels, Majors and Lieutenant Commanders running around at the same time.

I am not assuming anything.
I am flat out stating that we do not know how it was done.
Period.
We have zero canonical information to tell us what the ranks meant or what (if any) branches they went with.


Shark_Force wrote:
eliakon wrote:
And of course there could even be some weirdness involved to accommodate various former national situations.

By in large, the rank systems used by the world's militaries share a certain uniformity on most matters. It's mostly fiddly bits like the classification of warrant officers, the local terminology variations (e.g. leftenant vs lieutenant), and the relatively rare bits of cultural superstition[2] that trip people up.

Well that and the issue of things like "line of command or not" or "technical classes" or how you handle multiple ranks (if indeed you can) or how seniority is calculated or...
Trust me. I have been on joint bases... the gross uniformity (there is a chain of command and ranks) is not nearly as uniform as it looks.


Shark_Force wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Now if someone has a canon copy of the full rank and grade structure charts for the various United Earth Forces there could be some movement on this.

We have enough data to reach a reasonable conclusion without a full listing... moon logic what-ifs that ignore the fact that these military organizations are extensions of modern militaries aren't exactly grounds for ignoring the available data.

Again no.
We have enough data points that we can fill in the rest by making wild assumptions to get to a predetermined goal.
The simple fact of the matter is that the UEF ranks are a mishmash that makes no sense by ANY modern organization table.
That therefor demonstrates that... wait for it... they are not based on a modern organization table.
My personal opinion is that they basically said "screw it" and the 'rank' is not the actual grade put is a place holder for positions.


Shark_Force wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Lacking that we are speculating on how a black box works and more or less just picking a conclusion and then going back to figure out a way to make said conclusion work.

"A black box", is it? There's really no mystery to this stuff, or to how it ended up this way, if you know where to look for the answers.

Again your missing the point.
We have a fragmentary rank chart that does not map to any known military force in Earth history.
That sort of tells me that it is not just the US military/Japanese SDF with some window dressing.
The issue is that it is easy to get to multiple end states by making different initial conclusions. Conclusions that ALL have canonical support.
That tells me that there is an unknown mechanism at play here. Hence the black box.

Shark_Force wrote:
The reason Robotech's rank system came out a bit shonky in the series was it was rewritten from rushed, sloppy translation work and the rewriting itself was also done in great haste.

Yes your personal amicus towards the series is well know.
But here you are demonstrating for me exactly what I am talking about.
You are making the sweeping statement that the rank system is messed up because of reason X. And of course you have no evidence for that other than your stance that reason X must be true.
manipulate the data and you get any answer you want.
It might be fast and shoddy work.
It might be that there is something else that we don't know.
No one has access to the in universe rank chart to know.

Shark_Force wrote:
The only ranks spoken aloud in the first few episodes of Macross are those of commissioned officers. Since the short-form terminology for commissioned officer ranks is the same for all service branches in Japanese and the translator didn't get access to the production materials, it would've been very easy to miss some of the minor linguistic cues that indicated the UN Spacy was a Space Army rather than a Space Navy as was typical of so many American SF works. It wasn't until Hikaru's first sortie that an enlisted rank popped up in dialog... and just their luck, it was a rank term (軍曹, Gunsou, in American terms a Staff Sergeant) unique to the Army style rank system. Two more cropped up a few episodes later, when Hikaru was given a commission and became platoon leader.

So due to not reading ahead, you had dialog that'd already gone for Navy ranks for officers ("Captain" Gloval, "Lt. Commander" Fokker, etc.) and a rather tortured set of terms for the junior officers based on archaic/discontinued naval terminology: "acting sublieutenant", "sublieutenant" and "lieutenant" becoming 3rd, 2nd, and 1st Lieutenant, with new dialog and onscreen text coming in that showed army ranks instead. They couldn't spare the time or funds to go back and redo it, so they had to live with it.

They seem to have largely given up in frustration and just gone with army ranks all across the board in the Masters Saga... even referencing the overall commander of the UEEF's mission as a General rather than an Admiral. George Lombard/Jonathan Carpenter seems to have been more an innocent mistake than anything, swapping his rank for his aide's.

Robotech II: the Sentinels at least tried to set the record straight, showing a clear division between a ground forces group commanded by a Major General and shipboard contingent under an Admiral, with ranks to match on both sides.

Palladium's "UEDF Marines" appears to be an attempt to force the RT TV series into the standard real world rank system the originals enjoyed.

Again you are making an interesting assumption.
Which may or may not be true.
But unless you can provide EVIDENCE of your claim... them no it is not proof but simply one possible theory. A theory I might add that requires that the ranks do not actually exist.
Which is a nice theory if you wish to bash the show...
...but it doesn't work if you want to explain how the ranks in the show work. Because saying "bad show, go watch something else" is not a way to solve a RT problem.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:02 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5002
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
eliakon wrote:
I am not assuming anything.

Your entire position here is a series of unfounded assumptions... principally aimed at pushing a conclusion which defies both the evidence and common sense. You simply don't have a cogent argument.


eliakon wrote:
I am flat out stating that we do not know how it was done.
Period.
We have zero canonical information to tell us what the ranks meant or what (if any) branches they went with.

Like this one... which is categorically incorrect. Even without resorting to print source we have an almost complete officer rank listing right in the show itself, and Harmony Gold had a rank system listing that was complete except for the flag officer ranks on their old official site. Just because you don't want to accept the facts or do your research doesn't mean the information doesn't exist.

All told, official canon materials and the animation itself give us the first five enlisted ranks and ALL officer ranks for the ground forces, which match perfectly with real world Army rank systems. The official canon materials and the animation give us almost all of the navy side officer ranks, which apart from the junior officer rank translation is a perfect match for modern navies. AFAIK the only officer rank we're missing on the Navy side is Commodore.

(Mind you, there's also a HG-approved full rank system listing in the RPG... which looks pretty much identical to the real world stuff except for that archaic translation of the junior officer ranks for the navy side.)


eliakon wrote:
The simple fact of the matter is that the UEF ranks are a mishmash that makes no sense by ANY modern organization table.

As I have already illustrated, we not only know what the rank system looks like... we know precisely how it came to be the way it is. There is no mystery here.


eliakon wrote:
My personal opinion is that they basically said "screw it" and the 'rank' is not the actual grade put is a place holder for positions.

As there is no evidentiary basis for your conclusion, it means nothing.

We know for a fact that the operative goal was to adapt the original shows, not write gibberish.


eliakon wrote:
That tells me that there is an unknown mechanism at play here. Hence the black box.

There is no "unknown mechanism" here, you just don't want to accept that there is a straightforward answer.


eliakon wrote:
Yes your personal amicus towards the series is well know.

My personal impartial advisor towards the series is well known? Didn't know I had one.


eliakon wrote:
You are making the sweeping statement that the rank system is messed up because of reason X. And of course you have no evidence for that other than your stance that reason X must be true.

Harmony Gold has made no secret of the fact that it was fast and shoddy work. It was, in point of fact, even the main reason they gave for rejecting the Sylphid Veritech fan theory. The voice actors in particular tell horror stories about how rushed it was, catching catnaps in the corridor between takes during all-nighters.

Being an experienced translator who is intimately familiar with both the original shows and the adaptation, it's not hard to see where the translations went awry and why. The "Space Navy" misconception is one I have to debunk to fans an average of at least once a month for the very same reasons.


eliakon wrote:
No one has access to the in universe rank chart to know.

Except, of course, for those of us who were paying attention. This information is not hidden, it's in plain sight right in official publications and the show itself.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:02 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9419
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I am not assuming anything.

Your entire position here is a series of unfounded assumptions... principally aimed at pushing a conclusion which defies both the evidence and common sense. You simply don't have a cogent argument.

I find it amusing that this is always your claim to people who disagree with you.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I am flat out stating that we do not know how it was done.
Period.
We have zero canonical information to tell us what the ranks meant or what (if any) branches they went with.

Like this one... which is categorically incorrect. Even without resorting to print source we have an almost complete officer rank listing right in the show itself, and Harmony Gold had a rank system listing that was complete except for the flag officer ranks on their old official site. Just because you don't want to accept the facts or do your research doesn't mean the information doesn't exist.

All told, official canon materials and the animation itself give us the first five enlisted ranks and ALL officer ranks for the ground forces, which match perfectly with real world Army rank systems. The official canon materials and the animation give us almost all of the navy side officer ranks, which apart from the junior officer rank translation is a perfect match for modern navies. AFAIK the only officer rank we're missing on the Navy side is Commodore.

(Mind you, there's also a HG-approved full rank system listing in the RPG... which looks pretty much identical to the real world stuff except for that archaic translation of the junior officer ranks for the navy side.)

No
No we do not.
We have a number of officers.
There is NOTHING in the material that tells us if this is the complete officer rank listing.
Nor is there anything that tells us how the old ranks were converted
Nor is there anything that tells us if there are different branches and if there are if they use different ranks.
Nor is there anything that tells us what exactly those ranks mean/what positions they hold.
So no. We do NOT know how it was done.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:
The simple fact of the matter is that the UEF ranks are a mishmash that makes no sense by ANY modern organization table.

As I have already illustrated, we not only know what the rank system looks like... we know precisely how it came to be the way it is. There is no mystery here.

No we know how you wish it to look like.
The problem is that we are then presented with issues like the repeated discrepancies that tell us "hmmm, maybe there is more to this that we don't know"



Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:
My personal opinion is that they basically said "screw it" and the 'rank' is not the actual grade put is a place holder for positions.

As there is no evidentiary basis for your conclusion, it means nothing.

We know for a fact that the operative goal was to adapt the original shows, not write gibberish.

I know that you wish to dismiss all conclusions that do not match your preconceived one....
...but as you are not the line editor for the material that is not your prerogative.
But you want the evidentiary basis for my personal fan theory?
Sure, no problem.
I point to the multiple times that people are holding the wrong ranks for their positions such as: Enlisted personal flying planes (an officer slot in just about every military); A major commanding a ship; Generals in naval command structures; and the list goes on.
I then look at the bizarre seniority systems in place and the bizarre lateral promotions

As I am of the opinion that the simplest answer is the best I find that in this case the simplest answer is "the rank did not always match their slot because they were not tied to your duty station for some reason, presumably to do with absorbing to many old officers to put them all in the needed slots so they set up something else or whatever."
I will note that it is just my personal fan theory which is why I presented it as such.
My view on the canon reason is "who knows" or since it is a military show... "You are not cleared for that information citizen"
I am however capable of separating my fan theory from my views on canon. It is a very important ability in discussions to be able to do so because otherwise people start believing that their personal headcanon is actual line-canon... and that is Not Good.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:
That tells me that there is an unknown mechanism at play here. Hence the black box.

There is no "unknown mechanism" here, you just don't want to accept that there is a straightforward answer.

Again the answer is only straightforward if we accept your premise that the show was done incorrectly.
I find the premise that "The source material is wrong" to be untenable on its face.
As such we no longer have the solution to all discrepancies by just saying "They were idiots" and have to actually account for them in universe.


Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Yes your personal amicus towards the series is well know.

My personal impartial advisor towards the series is well known? Didn't know I had one.

Sorry, my bad. I meant animus.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:
You are making the sweeping statement that the rank system is messed up because of reason X. And of course you have no evidence for that other than your stance that reason X must be true.

Harmony Gold has made no secret of the fact that it was fast and shoddy work. It was, in point of fact, even the main reason they gave for rejecting the Sylphid Veritech fan theory. The voice actors in particular tell horror stories about how rushed it was, catching catnaps in the corridor between takes during all-nighters.

And again your personal theory that 'it was fast and shoddy means that we can just say that the source material is wrong" doesn't fly.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Being an experienced translator who is intimately familiar with both the original shows and the adaptation, it's not hard to see where the translations went awry and why. The "Space Navy" misconception is one I have to debunk to fans an average of at least once a month for the very same reasons.

Perhaps it is because you are not "correcting" anything but simply trying to push your personal headcanon as fact?
Since you have an established history of denying source material that is inconvenient to your preconceived notions and insist that those that believe the source material over you are suffering from misconceptions I see no particular reason to extend you credibility here in the question of debunking.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
eliakon wrote:
No one has access to the in universe rank chart to know.

Except, of course, for those of us who were paying attention. This information is not hidden, it's in plain sight right in official publications and the show itself.

Again you are making a mistake.
The published material was NOT a full rank chart.
It was a partial chart.
As such... no we do NOT have access to the in universe rank chart.
We have access to parts of it but not all of it.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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