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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:26 am
  

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now that PB has lost the robotech license, i will be posting my robotech related material to my website with full stats, and post the stuff i'd worked on or had hoped to work on for book projects. Since there is little reason to keep them separate anymore.
This will involve some degree of reworking of my site's structure and layout.

step one i completed yesterday.. the reworking of the 'new earth starships' page to being just 'starships'.. basically it will be the "fleet book' people had been wanting.

at the moment i can put the Banshee Class Light Guided Missile Cruiser up fairly fast, as soon as i assemble some decent artwork to go with it. i also have the Angel Class Colony ship fairly close to ready. and the Thurvual-Raulon Class Escort Cruiser is still only 1/3rd done, but much of it is just typing up the weapons.

https://sites.google.com/site/thetemple ... spacecraft

note that some of the hull classifications are speculative or have been slightly altered from what is listed in the sourcebooks.. most of the changes have been made to either refine the Hull Classification to better fit the role the ship fills in the show (the Tristar going from 'battlecruiser' to 'command cruiser', for example), or to give it a more defined role and hull classification (the Ark Angel going from "colony battlefortress' to 'SDFC-1' for example.)

some of the zentraedi names and the master's escort cruiser name are speculative, as no such names exist in the OSM for the zentraedi ships (and the masters ships have no OSM names at all) so i just picked the fan names that sounded good for the zents, and made one up for the Masters ship.

i have also added a Frigate class for the United Earth Forces (it seemed silly to divide by UEDF/ASC/UEEF when there is so much overlap), and a couple 'subclasses' for two of the UEEF's signature ships.

the ZSDFFR Cyclops Class Reconnaissance Frigate is basically going to be my take on the old Z-3.. the Quel-Quallie Class Theatre Reconnaissance Pod rebuilt to be a human vessel. since it is about 2/3rds the size of a Garfish Light Cruiser and in the setting has its own fold drive and such, it seemed more fitting to treat it as a Starship than a mecha. especially since the zent vessel has room for a crew of 3 (and space inside the crew spaces for at least a couple more), room for a zent size 3 person escape pod, and even has a 6 pod/PA mecha bay! i figured that if you ripped out the zent fittings you could fit several decks of human crew spaces and a crew of a couple dozen.. including room for several mecha/vehicles in that bay.

the SDLPD Ikazuchi Class Aerospace Landing Platform/Dock is my solution to the "why are there two very different ikazuchi's?" problem.. Shadow Chronicles had very nice ikazuchi's.. long, with launch tubes. but New Generation showed a different Ikazuchi.. shorter and stubbier, with those rapid launch bays. sure, the implication is it's supposed to be just a retcon, but unlike several of the others in the film, it is hard to reconcile the major differences.
thus the SDLPD Ikazuchi Class Aerospace Landing Platform/Dock.. basically, this is the one we saw in New Gen. its a troop ship, not a carrier. meant to carry and deploy ground forces, not maintain a CAP or put an airwing up. basically i'm assuming the two types are variants of the same hull, thus the same name but different roles, and that the two co-exist.. we can just assume the 21st Mars had some of the longer carrier models 'offscreen' pulling escort for the GROPOS.

the SDCA Garfish Class Gun Cruiser is basically the same for the Garfish.. the shadow chronicles one is slightly bulkier and has different contours, with that prow that splits to reveal the reflex cannon. talk about a major change! since the show has the standard Garfish in New Gen with a big internal cargo bay, i'm assuming two sub-classes again..the standard one being the cargo bay equipped model seen in new gen, then the Reflex cannon equipped version from shadow chronicles as a newer version reworking the interior, sacrificing the cargo bay for that big gun.

both garfish types will be able to make use of modular ventral bays (a feature of the shadow chronicles one that makes lot of sense.. need a carrier? hanger pod. need a science/Elint ship? sensor and EW pod. need a troop lander? ground forces pod. etc.)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:12 pm
  

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Looking forward to seeing your work online.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:13 pm
  

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Indeed. Looking forward to your presentation.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:41 pm
  

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That's gonna be fun. Once they're all statted out, I may put them together into my own
PDF. So looking for this. Will we finally get the Super Shadow Alphas; as well.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:13 am
  

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I have notes and a copy of the Art of shadow chronicles with some details, but since they were not anything i expected to stat up in a book it may be awhile. i'm starting with starships because i have several already worked up, and tend to have a lot of common systems and stats.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:37 am
  

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Anyway; looking forward to what you post! :)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:09 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
the ZSDFFR Cyclops Class Reconnaissance Frigate is basically going to be my take on the old Z-3.. the Quel-Quallie Class Theatre Reconnaissance Pod rebuilt to be a human vessel. since it is about 2/3rds the size of a Garfish Light Cruiser and in the setting has its own fold drive and such, it seemed more fitting to treat it as a Starship than a mecha. especially since the zent vessel has room for a crew of 3 (and space inside the crew spaces for at least a couple more), room for a zent size 3 person escape pod, and even has a 6 pod/PA mecha bay! i figured that if you ripped out the zent fittings you could fit several decks of human crew spaces and a crew of a couple dozen.. including room for several mecha/vehicles in that bay.

I don't know if the Z-3 makes a good stand-in for a Frigate/capital-ship. By RAW it doesn't have the firepower (1E or 2E) to really matchup to a capital ship. Nor does it have a Fold Drive in RAW/canon settings (citation please, or is that your setting?). If anything the Z-3 would make a decent replacement/supplement for the Horizon Shuttle that was capable of self-defense.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:02 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
[I don't know if the Z-3 makes a good stand-in for a Frigate/capital-ship. By RAW it doesn't have the firepower (1E or 2E) to really matchup to a capital ship. Nor does it have a Fold Drive in RAW/canon settings (citation please, or is that your setting?). If anything the Z-3 would make a decent replacement/supplement for the Horizon Shuttle that was capable of self-defense.


Plus, let's not forget the 'in-atmosphere evasion by submergence' capability. :-D

_________________
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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:23 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
the ZSDFFR Cyclops Class Reconnaissance Frigate is basically going to be my take on the old Z-3.. the Quel-Quallie Class Theatre Reconnaissance Pod rebuilt to be a human vessel. since it is about 2/3rds the size of a Garfish Light Cruiser and in the setting has its own fold drive and such, it seemed more fitting to treat it as a Starship than a mecha. especially since the zent vessel has room for a crew of 3 (and space inside the crew spaces for at least a couple more), room for a zent size 3 person escape pod, and even has a 6 pod/PA mecha bay! i figured that if you ripped out the zent fittings you could fit several decks of human crew spaces and a crew of a couple dozen.. including room for several mecha/vehicles in that bay.

I don't know if the Z-3 makes a good stand-in for a Frigate/capital-ship. By RAW it doesn't have the firepower (1E or 2E) to really matchup to a capital ship. Nor does it have a Fold Drive in RAW/canon settings (citation please, or is that your setting?). If anything the Z-3 would make a decent replacement/supplement for the Horizon Shuttle that was capable of self-defense.


as a recon ship, it does not require heavy firepower, and you are assuming the vessel does not have uprated armaments.. at the very least, a switch to earth missiles for the launchers will increase the firepower substantially.* and as a recon frigate half the size of the Garfish, it does not need heavy anti-ship firepower, just defensive firepower.

as far as the fold drive, two bits of evience. in Episode 9 "Miss Macross", when the Quel-Quallie Class first appears, the vessel's initiating "operation blue wind" is accompanied with the same sound FX as the zentraedi fold drive initiation, as it vanishes in a burst of light in the distance.
in Issue 2-5 of the Invasion comic series, in the mars base sera B-story, the Quel-Quallie Class being used as a scout reaches mars rapidly, within hours at best, from a location that was established in issue 2 to be on the edge of the solar system, a trip that at best would take weeks or possibly months at sublight. further the vessel when detected by the mars base, is described as coming out of a "gravitational disturbance that preceeded the arrival of the SDF-1 six years ago!" which is a clear indication that it exited a space fold. (it is the same rough description that accompanied breetai's fleet arriving over earth in the show)
the comic depicts the Quel-Quallie Class as having guns with the same range as the larger warships (able to fire on the base from a high orbit accurately and inflict fairly heavy damage to its life support system) but given that both the orbital bombardment of macross island in the show (performed well beyond the listed ranges for either the RPG or macross OSM) and the attack on mars base sera in the comic are done with specific orders for "long range bombardment" it is possible that they were using some special attack mode taking advantage of the fact that energy weapons like lasers and particle beams have actual ranges against stationary targets far far longer than the effective ranges they would have against an active mobile target.


*remember zentraedi missiles are substantially larger than earth ones for their type. a zent minimissile is roughly the size of a human SRM, and a zent SRM about the size of a human MRM, etc.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:03 pm
  

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Cool stuff Glitterboy, I look forward to your progress.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:28 pm
  

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Banshee class is up.The background section is a bit sparse.. it was written with an eye towards the ghost fleet book, which meant terse was the goal. eventually i'll get around to expanding it some.

the class though doesn't really need a lot of description.. it's small (about the size of the garfish) but packs huge punch thanks to all the missiles, and since it would be one of the first ship classes earth designed after the 1st robotech war much of its design would have been built using the lessons from the 1st war.. you can't have too many reflex missiles, and mecha are worth their volume in gold..

i tossed in some special gear to give it a distinct role in the ASC and UEEF fleets as well. (to explain why you'd make a Banshee instead of just building more battle's or tristars. since really, those are fairly similar in terms of firepower, with a lot of the same weapons systems.. i gave the banshee shallower ammo bays though for the missiles, since it is smaller.)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:25 pm
  

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An idea for expanded fluff might be a summary assessment of how well the Banshee, as planned, stood up against the opponents it finally -did- face.

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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
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Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:35 am
  

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taalismn wrote:
An idea for expanded fluff might be a summary assessment of how well the Banshee, as planned, stood up against the opponents it finally -did- face.


IMO it probably did ok against zentraedi ships (i am of the opinion that there were small groups of grand fleet survivors running around.. some stuck in the solar system, others lurking in nearby systems trying to raid earth due to lack of other orders, and of course some that got the heck out of dodge and made a beeline back to Tirol space. they had 5 million ships, and the earth would have blocked the final barrier overload blast for a good chunk of them. having a few hundred to a few thousand escape in various degrees of damage and disorder isn't much of a stretch, and would allow for some fun scenario building), especially if working as part of task forces including allied zent ships or other human ships like the Battle class and Tristar. Individually they'd probably have trouble with anything bigger than a Tou-Redir Patrol Frigate.

Against the masters they'd probably struggle.. they'd have no trouble taking on a Quiltra-Draenitz Class Multi-Purpose Transport (which is virtually unarmed) or pack of Riol-Tiluvo Class Assault Dropship's, but the Nupars-Zytsche Class motherships put even the SDF's to shame, and the Thurvual-Raulon Class Escort Cruiser way out classes anything earth has.. though again, working as part of a fleet or a wolfpack they'd probably do ok.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:53 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
as a recon ship, it does not require heavy firepower, and you are assuming the vessel does not have uprated armaments.. at the very least, a switch to earth missiles for the launchers will increase the firepower substantially.* and as a recon frigate half the size of the Garfish, it does not need heavy anti-ship firepower, just defensive firepower.

Uprated armaments is possible, but given the size of the Z-3 relative to the Garfish it really comes out as a Shuttle not a Frigate IMHO.

glitterboy2098 wrote:
as far as the fold drive, two bits of evience. in Episode 9 "Miss Macross", when the Quel-Quallie Class first appears, the vessel's initiating "operation blue wind" is accompanied with the same sound FX as the zentraedi fold drive initiation, as it vanishes in a burst of light in the distance.
in Issue 2-5 of the Invasion comic series, in the mars base sera B-story, the Quel-Quallie Class being used as a scout reaches mars rapidly, within hours at best, from a location that was established in issue 2 to be on the edge of the solar system,

Re: Invasion.
There are a few problems with your assessment:
-1. the first panel in #2 (last story page) establishes it is "elsewhere in the Solar System...", not the edge of the Solar System as you claim. So we don't actually know where they are in the Solar System.
-2. at the bottom of the page (in #2) we can see the Scout vessel launching the Cyclops with Mars visible in the distance ("to be continued" graphic appears between the Cyclops and Mars). This means that the De-Fold reaction detected at Sara Base is the Scout Ship and not the Cyclops
-3. nothing exists to establish a trip time for the Cyclops to Mars from the Scout, hours does seem reasonable

Re: Ep9. Why would that be an indication of the a Fold? (I don't hear anything like that on my DVDs either, Legacy Ed.) The launching Mothership was already pacing the SDF-1, plus no one on the SDF-1 mentioned detecting a space fold operation on the SDF-1 (which we know they can). The Zentreadi signals they are detecting likely aren't very strong give that Macross City (and maybe off duty personnel on base) is the intended viewers, and they are all packed into an area less than 1mile in diameter, so the SDF-1 likely is going to be relatively close for them to pickup those signals.

All that said, you could still include it as the result of a micronian retrofit given the Fold Module in AotSC for the Garfish (labeled in the line art IIRC, science version), but it does not appear to be something the stock Zentreadi craft can do.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:29 pm
  

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Kinda surorised they're still using the first generation laser CIWS from the old Oberth class, though......Even a reverse-engineered Regult particle beam mount would have slightly better range and damage. I've have thought they'd been able o make some improvements in spacecraft CIWS.

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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
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For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
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Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:49 pm
  

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eh, you have to figure the Banshee, Battle, and Tristar were all designed immediately after the 1st war.. they might not have gotten zent style PBC tech refined to the point they could use them for point defense at the time. and once in service, it would probably be too much hassle to refit. (i literally just used the same point defense turrets off the Tristar. *shrug*)

the Garfish, designed in 2030, seems to be using the same basic lasers as found on the oberth as well..
(oberth has 16 CIWS-L-20 single barrel 20mm lasers and 16 CIWS-L-40 double barrel 40mm lasers.. the Tristar used the CIWS-L-20's, the Garfish has "MKWS-40" double barrel 40mm lasers, with exactly the same stats as the CIWS-L-40's.)

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:05 am
  

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In regards to the MKWS-40 cannons...copy/paste of stats because they were lazy? LOL

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:42 am
  

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Arnie100 wrote:
In regards to the MKWS-40 cannons...copy/paste of stats because they were lazy? LOL

Not unheard of with Palladium. The VF-1, VFA-6, and VFH-10 all share the same jet lasers, which IIRC are also used by the Slyphid Fighter. In some respect it sort of makes sense, but at the same time it seems to show the technical stagnation/degradation that HG seems to want with the later two arcs (even though there are examples of them being more technologically advanced).


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:04 pm
  

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Well, guess one has to figure that the Earth R&D establishment took a serious hit in the Rain of Death. Attention was focused on other projects with bigger payoffs(new mecha designs, greater warhead yields, better guidance systems, Fold drives, etc,) and so CIWS got short shrift.
Frankly though, even with ammunition dependency, the cannons off the old Defender destroids would be a better choice, but maybe they figured fewer moving parts, more compact housings, and simplified fire control?

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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:03 pm
  

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taalismn wrote:
Well, guess one has to figure that the Earth R&D establishment took a serious hit in the Rain of Death. Attention was focused on other projects with bigger payoffs(new mecha designs, greater warhead yields, better guidance systems, Fold drives, etc,) and so CIWS got short shrift.
Frankly though, even with ammunition dependency, the cannons off the old Defender destroids would be a better choice, but maybe they figured fewer moving parts, more compact housings, and simplified fire control?


The Sentinal Mech designs would make sense in this situation then. Most of them have hands, and a mostly energy based weapon set.

Said Defender redesign (Raider-X) has a tri-laser setup instead of autocannons.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:14 pm
  

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GundamChief wrote:
[

The Sentinal Mech designs would make sense in this situation then. Most of them have hands, and a mostly energy based weapon set.

Said Defender redesign (Raider-X) has a tri-laser setup instead of autocannons.


Those designs may have come after the Pioneer Mission left Earth, but you're right, the 10-mile range and smaller size of the Raider-X2 trilasers would make it a good refit for the older shipboard laser turrets. The Banshee's turrets look about as big as the Logan, and thus about the size of the Marine Defender's arms. The UEEF Banshees and Garfish may be due for a refit, though, as I've said, if they were developed out-solar system, they may not have percolated back to Earth in time for fleet-wide refits.

_________________
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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:07 am
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
at the same time it seems to show the technical stagnation/degradation that Tommy Yune seems to want with the later two arcs (even though there are examples of them being more technologically advanced).


FTFY. And honestly, what his opinion on the technical prowess of the UEF post-Macross is as useful as a bucket of warm spit and should be regarded exactly as such.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:15 am
  

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So, yah, point defense refit, at least on the UEEF ships. Even if they don't need that many destroids, component systems could be used for other programs.
Of course, with the more modular Garfish featuring prominently in their TOE, the UEEF might consider refitting the Banshee a waste of resources, because they'd be phasing them out in favor of more Garfish.

_________________
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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:27 am
  

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Yeah eventual refitting of better CIWS would make sense but as seen in the show most ships were actually pretty susceptible to swarm attacks by mecha be it in macross, southern cross or invid invasion.

My only assumtion is a ships own mecha were meant to be the anti-mecha deterrent.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:56 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
as seen in the show most ships were actually pretty susceptible to swarm attacks by mecha in southern cross.


Categorically untrue. There was never a single UEF capital ship (Light Cruiser and upwards) that fell prey to mecha attacks. Not. A. Single. Warship.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:52 pm
  

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the Garfish and Ikazuchi's fell prey to that with the invid in new gen, but we don't see any ships in macross or southern cross fall to mecha, true enough. between the turrets and the SRM batteries on the ones we see in southern cross, i'd imagine they'd even have held out against the invid for longer.. at least until their SRM batteries ran dry. presumably the UEEF's compliment of banshees, battles, and tristars were way out numbered by the garfish and ikazuchi's by 2038 onward explaining why they were not seen with the 10th and 21st Mars Division attacks.

had Ghost Fleet been finished, i suspect we'd have had it that the UEEF foisted most of them off to the ASC troops that had been evacuated from earth whe nthe invid arrived, in the creation of the Ghost Fleet..

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:56 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
jaymz wrote:
as seen in the show most ships were actually pretty susceptible to swarm attacks by mecha in southern cross.


Categorically untrue. There was never a single UEF capital ship (Light Cruiser and upwards) that fell prey to mecha attacks. Not. A. Single. Warship.
8
Light Cruiser Beam Cannon



As GB points out it's not categorically untrue. Episode one of invasion shows several. Try not to let your own bias towards me colour the facts and cause you to use hyperbole Dave. Nice edit to remove the part where I state it's an issue in all three series though and use it to try and trumpet your favourite chapter.

GB - true however in most of macross they are not trying to destroy the sdf-1 And the one time khyron tried too, his mecha forces were in fact overwhelming the defenses before breetai used the recall beam to stop the attack. In masters you are also correct in that the ships weren't lost just to mecha however that largely plays to my assumption that earth ships mostly used their own mecha as their anti-mecha defenses not that they actually had good defenses inherently built in.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:04 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
Yeah eventual refitting of better CIWS would make sense but as seen in the show most ships were actually pretty susceptible to swarm attacks by mecha be it in macross, southern cross or invid invasion.

My only assumtion is a ships own mecha were meant to be the anti-mecha deterrent.


Lingering policy from the SDF-1 which was keep the enemy away from the ship carrying the civvies, by fighter force projection?

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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:07 pm
  

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Palladin

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Perhaps. But also think about present naval doctrine. Ciws are mainly more for anti missile not anti-fighter defense. That's what the fighters on the carriers largely are for being mostly interceptor type craft. That and maybe 2-4 sam launchers at most.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:49 am
  

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Champion

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jaymz wrote:
As GB points out it's not categorically untrue. Episode one of invasion shows several. Try not to let your own bias towards me colour the facts and cause you to use hyperbole Dave. Nice edit to remove the part where I state it's an issue in all three series though and use it to try and trumpet your favourite chapter.


You basically claim that its a problem with all 3 shows which is a flat out falsehood. The problem with no CIWS on the MOSPEADA ships has been known for years and is a design flaw in the hulls. There is no such design flaw in the Southern Cross fleet, since the ships have not only Anti-Ship but also Anti-Mecha directed-energy weapons covering multiple arcs across the hull. You're essentially trying to throw Southern Cross under the bus to satisfy your ridiculous biases. If you can provide a SINGLE CELL showing ANY of the UEF capital ships in the 2nd Robotech War being lost at the hands of mecha and NOT other capital ships, I'll publicly apologize. The ONLY vessel above Fighter size harmed are two Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles (a vehicle roughly ~40-50m in length) that are shown to blow up in the action between the UEF fleets and a small flotilla of Tirolian warships (Assault Corvettes) and mecha. This is shown in Dana's Story and Clone Chamber. The most mecha can do to Southern Cross ships is destroy their directed-energy weapons batteries, not cut gaping holes through their armor belts.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:41 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
No, I DO claim. Not basically. Stop changing what is said by me. I know you have issues with but get over it already. I said the series as whole showed issues in that sense.

I am not throwing SC under the bus. In fact I am one of the very few who actually give SC a pretty good fair shake in my rewrites (as you well know and have said so yourself in the past) so if anyone is showing biases here, towards me and the show, it is you.

First of all YOU said categorically untrue about anti-mecha not being an issue and EDITED my post to fit YOUR narrative.
Quote:
The most mecha can do to Southern Cross ships is destroy their directed-energy weapons batteries, not cut gaping holes through their armor belts.
Using this logic then the Invid should have never done a damn thing to the returning earth forces. But, OH, they did. So your logic is flawed and demanding a
Quote:
SINGLE CELL showing ANY of the UEF capital ships in the 2nd Robotech War being lost at the hands of mecha
is assinine. I do not need a cell of animation to PROVE anything. Especially since YOU cannot provide 100% categorical proof that NO ships were lost to mecha attacks.

GB mentioned Invid Invasion. I gave an example of mecha forces overwhelming the SDF-1. With the size of the major fleet actions in SC LOGIC would dictate that at least some ships were likely lost due to aerospace attacks and not JUST anti-ship firepower since the earth fleets significantly outnumbered the masters fleet, not to mention the vast majority of ships we see blow up are far enough away from the camera's perspective as to not actually show us what actually did the most damage to the ship.

However there is no further point in discussing with you. You will believe only what YOU want since in the past you have repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to ignore one type of source when it proves you wrong but then use the same type of source if it proves you right. So stop with the the mental gymnastics and actually logically discuss the topic instead of being so damned determined to make SC out to be the best show of the three.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:39 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
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jaymz wrote:
Yeah eventual refitting of better CIWS would make sense but as seen in the show most ships were actually pretty susceptible to swarm attacks by mecha be it in macross, southern cross or invid invasion.

My only assumtion is a ships own mecha were meant to be the anti-mecha deterrent.

Other potential problems with the CIWS is they can be overwhelmed if you underestimate enemy swarm tactics and/or the enemy can also focus/redeploy to overwhelm coverage areas of the CIWS (in "Volunteers" the Masters defenders start to swarm Dana's side because she wasn't firing).

I agree that the mecha are used to counter other mecha, but a layered defense approach would seem to make the most sense. IINM aside from 3 instances in TRM and 0 in NG/TSC we really don't see mecha defenders from either side operating on the hull like in Macross.

RSCF wrote:
If you can provide a SINGLE CELL showing ANY of the UEF capital ships in the 2nd Robotech War being lost at the hands of mecha and NOT other capital ships, I'll publicly apologize. The ONLY vessel above Fighter size harmed are two Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles (a vehicle roughly ~40-50m in length) that are shown to blow up in the action between the UEF fleets and a small flotilla of Tirolian warships (Assault Corvettes) and mecha.

Actually Zor's Red Bioroid destroys a Shuttle in "Southern Cross" (on the ground), so that is 3 shuttles. It's not a capital ship I admit.

EDIT: Fixed 2nd Quote source.


Last edited by ShadowLogan on Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:12 am
  

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Palladin

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Can you fix the second quote. I didn't say that.


Otherwise you and more or less agree.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:05 pm
  

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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
[q The most mecha can do to Southern Cross ships is destroy their directed-energy weapons batteries, not cut gaping holes through their armor belts.


Unless the gun mounts have impressive compartmentalization, blowing off a turret off a spacecraft still ain't a good thing. It's still a hole in the hull and a dead spot in the PD coverage.
Like a tanker aware that there's infantry crawling around on his tank's body, a spacer isn't going to be happy with mecha squatting in his blind spots.

_________________
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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:34 pm
  

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Somebody's gonna have to go out there and clear 'em out...

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:39 pm
  

Hero

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I think there's a valid case to be made for a distinction between susceptible and vulnerable.

It makes sense near any ship could be susceptible to high enough numbers of enemy mecha, hence why everyone puts high numbers of enemy mecha into action. That's self-evident, they wouldn't be there if they couldn't have an effect on the battle. The only possible exception that comes to mind are the Tirolian-based energy barriers which seem to shrug off even swarm attacks. It seemed to take sustained barrages of anti-ship weaponry to get through those..

On the other hand, during both the First and Second Robotech wars, the preponderance of the story time shows mecha having to penetrate ship-based anti-mecha defenses. While they can become overwhelmed, they rip significantly into the attackers. In New Generation, though, once the enemy (Invid) mecha overwhelm the fighter screens, its open season, and the mecha physically rip ships apart with little resistance.

So what I'm saying is there is not a continuity of presentation for the battles vis-a-vis mecha vs. ships. There is no overarching "when we see mecha run at ships, this is how it tends to go" that threads through the whole show. This is understandable; real-world, of course, you have the three different shows, but as important is the fact that they're telling different stories, and "these ships are mincemeat vs. enemy mecha" wasn't a story all three were telling. Pretending all three of these presentations tell one story, i.e. Earth ships fall easily to mecha, requires a certain myopia to the stories actually being told. The storytellers wanted you to go "holy cow those ships can't hold up against enemy swarms" in Mospeada/New Generation specifically; that's unimpeachable. Saying Mospeada/New Generation type ships were particularly vulnerable to swarms is what is evident in the story.

Macross takes time to show ships themselves beating off attacks. Occasionally the fact that Earth was utterly, ridiculously, hilariously outmanned and outgunned was demonstrated, usually in the context of explaining why the Zentraedi were fighting with both arms tied behind their backs. So yeah Zentraedi mecha could have used their numbers to overwhelm the SDF-1, but the show goes out of its way to demonstrate that in an even match Earth defenses, including those inherent to the SDF-1 itself, can fight off the Zentraedi foes. In the Masters, we have full-on, full-scale fleet battles; here Earth is out-teched by the foe, though of course that foe is specifically presented as Masters of the Tech everyone is using. Mecha make a difference, but there are losses involved on both sides to penetrating the defenses of the ships; even stopping a Pegasus shuttle involves losses of plenty of Bioroids to the turrets it mounts. Mospeada doesn't bother, and the mecha blow ships up left and right to give the main character the needed existential ennui he'll carry through the rest of the series, which was what they needed storywise. Translate what are essentially story-beats into ship design parameters, and what you get is...well, the standard that New Gen ships sure feel more vulnerable to mecha than those prior. You can explain that in many ways, but ignoring it is ignoring the story presented in Robotech.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:55 pm
  

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Well, it helps that in Macross, the Veritechs were missile-boats, packing NUKES. Fryolate Zentraedi warships.
Southern Cross? The Masters' mecha don't pack missiles. We don't get to see the Southern Cross's Chimera missile boats apply missile spam.
New Generation? The REF snipes the Invid clam-ships with long range capital ship fire, leaving the VFs to missile-spam the Invid hordes. In return, the Invid mecha ARE the missiles.

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:41 am
  

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Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 9:17 pm
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taalismn wrote:
Southern Cross? The Masters' mecha don't pack missiles. We don't get to see the Southern Cross's Chimera missile boats apply missile spam.


Not exactly true. You could definitely call the attacking Chimera squadrons in Prelude to Battle as engaging in "missile spam" of a sort. Of course, the more famous instances of Macross Missile Massacre/Itano Circus happen in False Start (Arbalest batteries cut loose against the approaching Bioroid Transports); Danger Zone (the Sylphide's try overwhelming a Tirolian City-ship with missiles galore); and Stardust (where Logans missile spam another City-ship). Of course, the mecha-borne missile attacks in Danger Zone, Prelude to Battle and Stardust all result in The Masters using their shields to protect their ships. This would seem to indicate the United Earth Forces were lobbing something along the lines of Reflex Weapons at the Tirolians and that The Masters perceived the danger to their ships. The only other missile spam was done by UEF warships like that seen in Mind Games, when (again), The Masters seem to have used their shields (and in an offensive manner too, which speaks to their capabilities).


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:17 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
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Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
taalismn wrote:
Southern Cross? The Masters' mecha don't pack missiles. We don't get to see the Southern Cross's Chimera missile boats apply missile spam.


Not exactly true. You could definitely call the attacking Chimera squadrons in Prelude to Battle as engaging in "missile spam" of a sort. Of course, the more famous instances of Macross Missile Massacre/Itano Circus happen in False Start (Arbalest batteries cut loose against the approaching Bioroid Transports); Danger Zone (the Sylphide's try overwhelming a Tirolian City-ship with missiles galore); and Stardust (where Logans missile spam another City-ship). Of course, the mecha-borne missile attacks in Danger Zone, Prelude to Battle and Stardust all result in The Masters using their shields to protect their ships. This would seem to indicate the United Earth Forces were lobbing something along the lines of Reflex Weapons at the Tirolians and that The Masters perceived the danger to their ships. The only other missile spam was done by UEF warships like that seen in Mind Games, when (again), The Masters seem to have used their shields (and in an offensive manner too, which speaks to their capabilities).

I think when taalismn is referring to the "Masters' mecha" he is referring to the faction, not the arc. I could be mistaken.

Missile spam from warships is a thing for the ASC, but the closest we see their fighters/mecha perform that is with the AGACs cluster missiles. The Chimera and (maybe the) Falcon are equipped such that it could do that, but the rest of the ASC aerospace craft and mecha are lightly armed in this way compared to the the VFs of the other arcs. At least going by what is shown and stated in the Infopedia (and RPG).


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