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 Post subject: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:15 am
  

D-Bee

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Comment: Once upon a time I started writing "Insurrection". No, it's not likely to be completed... still...
Are there any other cannon divisions in the UEEF than the following?
2, 3, 5, 13 Divisions (Sparks in Symphony of light)
7, 10 Mars Divisions (Invasion comic)
21 Mars Division (Scott's)


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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:48 am
  

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Well the list above brings into question where are the 1, 4, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12 and 14 - 20 divisions.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:46 am
  

D-Bee

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Comment: Once upon a time I started writing "Insurrection". No, it's not likely to be completed... still...
Indeed. A few possibilities:
They are -Scattered throughout the galaxy
They are -SC divisions because the UEEF and the UEDF share a common numbering system for divisions
They were -Destroyed over Earth without warrenting a mention :'(
They -Never existed


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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:00 am
  

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Knight

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Well AotSC (pg109) mentions the 105, 86, 101, and the 48th. Basically if an Ikazuchi has a number on it, that number is supposed to represent a divisional number going off of the Ikazcuhi brief in AotSC.


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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:47 am
  

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Knight

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Bamse wrote:
Are there any other cannon divisions in the UEEF than the following?
2, 3, 5, 13 Divisions (Sparks in Symphony of light)
7, 10 Mars Divisions (Invasion comic)
21 Mars Division (Scott's)

The presentation of markings in AotSC indicates that there are separate divisional numbering systems employed by the forces that are headquartered at Mars Base and the UEEF proper... and that probably holds true for other bases in the Sol system as well (Jupiter Base is mentioned, there is possibly a Neptune Base if the markings for the unused Gamma Fighter are valid.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
Well AotSC (pg109) mentions the 105, 86, 101, and the 48th. Basically if an Ikazuchi has a number on it, that number is supposed to represent a divisional number going off of the Ikazcuhi brief in AotSC.

Aren't some of those marked up as UEEF divisions rather than Mars Base divisions? (Posting from work)

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:04 pm
  

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Knight

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Well AotSC (pg109) mentions the 105, 86, 101, and the 48th. Basically if an Ikazuchi has a number on it, that number is supposed to represent a divisional number going off of the Ikazcuhi brief in AotSC.

Aren't some of those marked up as UEEF divisions rather than Mars Base divisions? (Posting from work)


Technically yes, though Mars Base/Division is a subset of the UEEF I thought. 105 and 86 are UEEF symbols below them and 101 and 48 have the Mars Base logo.

Flipping through AotSC Vessel chapter gives the following (I'll note if the symbol is UEEF or Mars Base and pg # along with ship):
03 (UEEF, pg105 SDF-3)
08 (UEEF, pg116 Ark Angel)
22 (Mars, pg113 Garfish)
46 (Mars, pg113 Garfish)
48 (Mars, pg113 Garfish, 109 Ikazuchi)
86 (UEEF, pg109 Ik, pg111 Shimakaze, pg113 Garfish)
99 (UEEF pg110 Shimakaze)
101 (Mars, pg106 SDF-4)
105 (UEEF pg113 Garfish)
110 (UEEF pg113 Garfish)
134 (UEEF pg113 Garfish)


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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:17 pm
  

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So the UEEF has a potential minimjm of 134 divisions.

Now we just need to figure out what a division is.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:01 pm
  

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Knight

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Jefffar wrote:
So the UEEF has a potential minimjm of 134 divisions.

Now we just need to figure out what a division is.

Possibly not all at once... remember, they've encountered significant losses against the Invid Regess and Regent. It's highly probable that many of those divisions no longer exist due to combat losses, and their numbers were retired after the unit was disestablished.

Assuming they're treating them like Armored Divisions as a mecha-centric force, that'd imply somewhere between 240 and 450 mecha per division. The OSM term was "Battle Company", but since they treated the mecha as a sort of paratrooper-equivalent the size was also around 250 personnel per unit.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:06 pm
  

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Except these are numbers on ships, so that could also imply Naval divisions.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:57 pm
  

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Knight

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Jefffar wrote:
Except these are numbers on ships, so that could also imply Naval divisions.

That would, based on modern usage in an aviation context, be a formation too small to devote a single Ikazuchi-class ship to one division... let alone multiple ships.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:13 am
  

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But in a naval context, a division may be several ships.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:48 am
  

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Jefffar wrote:
But in a naval context, a division may be several ships.

True, but in that context the troops stationed aboard those ships wouldn't identify as belonging to the "Xth Division"... the usage of "division" in the series only fits an armored or infantry context.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:35 pm
  

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Scott also claims to be in the 21st armored tactical assault corps in the 2nd episode of new gen. A Corps is higher than a division, so it is possible that the ships used naval divisions, but the horizonts and many of the mecha were part of a ground forces Corps.

Though it also possible just used an ASC like title to make the south american locals feel more safe with a group of armed and armored people showing up in town.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:26 pm
  

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Scott was part of the fleet, not army or marines based on his Lt. Cmdr rank and disdain for 'army flyboys'.

I would assume he would use division in the Naval sense and the army related terms would be a cover because the UEEF was somewhat unpopular in some circles.

Now, depends ding on the era, Division in a navy can be a purely administrative unit instead of a combat one. So the 10th Mars Division may have been a fleet unit that was a part of the 21st Corps, a combined Fleet/Planetside unit tasked with liberating Earth.

In that case there may have been multiple fleet, army, marine and air force divisions involved in the opening attack.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:08 pm
  

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Knight

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
Scott also claims to be in the 21st armored tactical assault corps in the 2nd episode of new gen.

The New Generation isn't exactly consistent on the subject of military terminology... the term "Division" is most consistently used to refer to the troop formations, but on a few instances it's "21st Squadron" instead.



glitterboy2098 wrote:
A Corps is higher than a division, so it is possible that the ships used naval divisions, but the horizonts and many of the mecha were part of a ground forces Corps.

A Corps is also an administrative formation of no fixed size... like the αTAC from Southern Cross/Robotech's Masters Saga, which was made up of just fifteen squads and maybe four hundred troops in total.

The problem with the idea of a Naval Division is that more than one character explicitly refers to them as Mars Base Divisions... that, like the rest of the usages of "Division", implies an Armored or Infantry context.




Jefffar wrote:
Scott was part of the fleet, not army or marines based on his Lt. Cmdr rank and disdain for 'army flyboys'.

Based on in-series dialog, Scott wasn't (directly) affiliated with the fleet... he was part of a "Mars Base Division". (It's possible only the UEEF Divisions first established to exist in AotSC are truly "the fleet" troops.)

As a point of order, the rank system in Robotech is somewhat unclear and freely mixes both Army and Navy rank terminology. Rick's rank progression, for instance, starts at Sergeant. He's quickly promoted to 3rd Lieutenant, a rank you won't find in the traditional Western Army or Navy rank systems (but is contextually equivalent to 2nd Lt. or Ensign), before being promoted to 2nd Lieutenant, 1st Lieutenant... then Lieutenant Commander, and eventually (after a timeskip) to Major General and then Admiral. The RPG tries to rationalize this in a few different ways, and gives normal real-world rank systems instead of the one from the show.

Speaking as a translator, the most likely explanation for this bizarre rank system is an extremely archaic translation of the Japanese ranks that fell out of use shortly after World War II combined with an effort to avoid the old translation headache of having "Captain (of a ship") used alongside "Captain (the rank)". Production materials, creator commentary, and on-screen text show that all three original shows had meant for the all-purpose Japanese rank terms to be translated as an Army-style rank system. To avoid the confusion between the title of Captain of a ship (艦長, Kanchō), a Naval Captain (大佐, Taisa, sometimes read Daisa to differentiate Navy from Army), or Army Captain (大尉, Taii), they seem to have gone to a Naval rank system instead. They probably used an archaic translation of the IJN's rank system which referred to the Ensign-equivalent rank of 少尉 (Shōi) as "Acting Sublieutenant" and got their three grades of Lieutenant from that progression from Acting Sublieutenant, Sublieutenant, and Lieutenant to tie it together with visible onscreen text that mentioned 2nd and 1st Lieutenant.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:17 pm
  

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Fleets are frequently named for their headquarters or area of operations. It is conceivable that the division is likewise named.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:37 am
  

D-Bee

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Comment: Once upon a time I started writing "Insurrection". No, it's not likely to be completed... still...
The Marine Sourcebook mentions that the SDF-4 carries the 3rd and 4th Marine regiments which together number just under 12000 troops and some 288 battloids. Could these regiments together form the 101st Division? My other theory is that a 144-strong Battloid armored regiment, x number of Veritechs and 6000-ish troops together make up a Marine Division. This would mean the SDF-4 carries two divisions (maybe there's a 102 painted on the other side of the ship).
I think my second theory couples in nicely with Point K as a possible deployed division (perhaps strengthened with fleet Veritechs).

I have a hard time reconciling myself with the thought that there are potentially 1.6 million marines. With the 6000 strong Marine division 134 Divisions would halve that number to "only" 800,000.


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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:12 am
  

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Well, at least 134 divisions.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:40 am
  

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Knight

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Bamse wrote:
I think my second theory couples in nicely with Point K as a possible deployed division (perhaps strengthened with fleet Veritechs).

Point K was a rally point for any troops who survived the landing ops... so its strength was basically whomever was lucky enough to come through the drop operation intact.



Bamse wrote:
I have a hard time reconciling myself with the thought that there are potentially 1.6 million marines. With the 6000 strong Marine division 134 Divisions would halve that number to "only" 800,000.

One thing to remember when looking at the RPG's numbers is that it MASSIVELY exaggerates many aspects of the Robotech universe to make it and the conflicts that largely define it seem much bigger and more bombastic in the RPG than they were in the actual show.

Take, for instance, the introductory quote from the Alpha Tactical Armored Corps in the Masters Saga sourcebook (on pages 47-48). The speaker is identified as a Sergeant belonging to the ATAC 12th Armored Cavalry Regiment's 4th Squadron. The ATAC in the series is organized like an infantry formation, made up of 15 roughly platoon-sized "Squads" each of which was led by a 2nd or 1st Lieutenant. That's right, the entire ATAC is 15 squads according to production materials... just barely enough personnel to be considered a single infantry battalion, with at most 450 actual combat troops.

Or, looking to the size of the UEEF itself, the RPG describes a colossal organization completely at odds with what's actually in the show. The fleet that arrives at Earth at the end of the series is identified as being the UEEF returned from deep space en masse to retake Earth. The Shadow Chronicles OVA finesses this to having been the vast majority of the UEEF forces with smallish flotillas left behind to protect key installations like Liberty station. It didn't even number 400 ships... and 360 of the 395 ships seen in that fleet are Garfish-class. Factor in the big ships that didn't make it, minus the five Shimakaze-class ships that don't have official capacities given, and an easy rough-order estimate of the total number of personnel in that 3rd ERF that was either the whole fleet or a vast majority thereof just barely tops 100,000 people. Take out the ship crews, and what you're left with divided by the highest stated division number minus the lowest, puts the size of the division at only about 300 people. That is, of course, assuming all of those numbered divisions are active units and that these ships were fully crewed and equipped with their full complements of mecha, which seems dubious given the redesigns of the carriers and the allegedly high casualty rate fighting the Invid Regent.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:53 pm
  

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Knight

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Seto wrote:
Point K was a rally point for any troops who survived the landing ops... so its strength was basically whomever was lucky enough to come through the drop operation intact.

That seems inconsistent with what Scott expected to find at Point K though, a force with: 6000 soldiers and 2000 Veritechs.

I agree Point K was a rally point, but to expect 6k soldiers and 2k Veritechs implies a pre-established force they would be linking up with IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:25 pm
  

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Long term rally points are often "Okay Major Command force X will be here at day Y. Any units that have been separated will link up with the rest of the force at this time."

This differs from a short term one like "after the drop paratroopers will rally at the following points at 23:00 to sort out for the assault on target X"

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:11 pm
  

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while the timeline scott describes for point K is annoyingly hard to sort out, the following is clear from it.

Point K predated the 21st mars Division's arrival at earth. (and may have predated the 10th mars as well)
it had a massive force available when it was formed.
It was making little effort to hide from the invid


while i have no doubt that 21st mars survivors would head towards it the way scott did (which would help explain the Beta being present, a surviving ship making a near-crash landing), the only way Scott's dialog works is if the place was an existing field base of some sort that already existed when the 21st mars was sent to earth.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:04 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
while the timeline scott describes for point K is annoyingly hard to sort out, the following is clear from it.

Point K predated the 21st mars Division's arrival at earth. (and may have predated the 10th mars as well)
it had a massive force available when it was formed.
It was making little effort to hide from the invid


while i have no doubt that 21st mars survivors would head towards it the way scott did (which would help explain the Beta being present, a surviving ship making a near-crash landing), the only way Scott's dialog works is if the place was an existing field base of some sort that already existed when the 21st mars was sent to earth.

Which makes perfect sense then as a rally point.
If you already have forward bases in enemy territory then yes, by all means you would have them be where scattered forces would be ordered to go to in order to link up and regroup.

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 Post subject: Re: REF Division numbers
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:29 pm
  

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When the 2nd Edition came out, I decided to create a multitude of Rally Points around the Earth. The only one I remember off the top of my head was "Point M". It was located in Monterey California, which at one point in time was a Military Stronghold before the RoD. For my one shot/convention adventure, I had an Invid Stilt Hive (really a hive built on top of a building) located in San Francisco for the players to destroy.

Edit: Found some of my notes...

Rally Point Alpha is located near the outpost station Davis on Antartica. It was a Southern Cross Naval Station that had been destroyed in the Second Robotech War. But there could be valuable supplies and logistics at this location. It is also a jumping point to the Western Hemisphere

Rally Point Charlie is the location of the second Grand Cannon. Located on the outskirts of the Pre-Rain of Death city "Campo Grande". It was nearly complete before the Rain of Death. During the Malcontent Uprising it was captured by rogue Zentraedi (Malcontent's) and later recaptured by the RDF and Southern Cross combined forces. It had been decommissioned, and became an RDF reserve outpost during the Second Robotech War.

This location was going to be set up for the Achilles by the 569th Renegades. But the Achilles was lost in battle over Earth during the 21st Mars Division Assault.

This isn't my whole set of notes, nor wholly my material. I am sure I cribbed parts off of someone else from the internet. I want to say the Southern Cross Recruitment Manual.


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