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 Post subject: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:29 pm
  

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I think I remember some topic like this on the forums a while ago, but...was there a cloning program on Earth or in the REF to build up the necessary numbers of personnel to fight in the wars and repopulate the Earth (as well as filling up all those colony ships if we want to extend out the Macross timeline).

I see some things online with the Macross Compendium about cloning being fired up ~2010 and then being stopped ~2030 due to hereditary diseases, but am looking for a more "Robotech" answer (does that even make sense?)

I would accept mass cloning on Earth, but would they have brought along cloning vats in the REF? The alternatives are rather even more...barbaric or massively inefficient for a military force.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:49 pm
  

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HG has been pretty quiet on the subject, but the general implication in the current canon is that enough people survived the 1st war on earth that rebuilding, colonizing other worlds, and crewing up a large fleet was not a major problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:15 pm
  

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slade the sniper wrote:
I think I remember some topic like this on the forums a while ago, but...was there a cloning program on Earth or in the REF to build up the necessary numbers of personnel to fight in the wars and repopulate the Earth (as well as filling up all those colony ships if we want to extend out the Macross timeline).

Officially, no... the dialog from the Masters Saga pretty well torpedoes the idea that Earth was using cloning to boost the size of the human population after the First Robotech War ended. The brass in the Army of the Southern Cross's HQ react to the Robotech Masters allegedly using mass cloning like it's a new and novel concept, having apparently forgotten their planet was invaded by a clone army just 20 years ago. (Adaptation-induced plot hole.)

The population growth problem is another adaptation-induced plot hole, brought about by the Macross Saga and the first episode of the Masters Saga treating the devastation of Earth as being total and the SDF-1 as the sole source of survivors. It ran into problems because the depiction of Earth in Macross's later episodes was with a population over a hundred times that size (~9 million in total survivors, with Zentradi outnumbering humans 8 to 1), and the two other shows also having more populous planets in their original formats. The problem was compounded by the fan "researchers" who helped supply info to the Infopedia... they tended to exaggerate things and inject their fan fiction instead of providing reliable info. The RPG also tends to play the size of the human population and military way up, mainly for the sake of providing more story flexibility.

(It's a shame, since the numbers from the originals actually work better with the limited population Robotech's version establishes exists... ships crewed by a few dozen to at most a few hundred soldiers instead of thousands or tens of thousands, and whole branches of the armed forces that had only a handful of units and only a few hundred actual soldiers to their name like the ATAC or the TASC.)




slade the sniper wrote:
I see some things online with the Macross Compendium about cloning being fired up ~2010 and then being stopped ~2030 due to hereditary diseases, but am looking for a more "Robotech" answer (does that even make sense?)

Yeah, unfortunately there's no help from that quarter... the Masters Saga pretty thoroughly rules out cloning. The closest we've had to an official answer as to where the UEEF gets its personnel after leaving Earth is the one the RPG's core book parrots: the children of UEEF soldiers join the UEEF themselves as soon as they're old enough... because there are no other career options besides military service for those born out in space. They've got what amounts to a 100% recruitment rate by default as the only source of employment, and the RPG notes that this is seen as A-OK as fighting wars against alien oppressors has become a way of life for most.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:13 am
  

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Opposed to the Macross storyline (where the UN uses cloning to repopulate the earth), in the Robotech storyline there is no evidence of the UEG making use of cloning within current canon.

There are some fiction stories that talk about the UEEF forces using cloning for the Praxians, who in the story has lost their world and their motherhood temples.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:37 am
  

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There is also the question of how many non-humans are a part of the UEEF, particularly Zentraedi on the outbound mission and Tirolians on the reclamation missions. Both are close enough to human to be very difficult to pick out.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:41 am
  

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slade the sniper wrote:
I see some things online with the Macross Compendium about cloning being fired up ~2010 and then being stopped ~2030 due to hereditary diseases, but am looking for a more "Robotech" answer (does that even make sense?)

That's for SDF: Macross though and doesn't apply to Robotech. Officially the issue of population sources hasn't been addressed within series canon, though the 2E RPG states additional survivor sites (see Masters SB), which MIGHT BE an indication on HG's thinking on the issue.

slade the sniper wrote:
I would accept mass cloning on Earth, but would they have brought along cloning vats in the REF? The alternatives are rather even more...barbaric or massively inefficient for a military force.

Considering that Zentreadi sizing chambers are cloning chambers, and IINM the REF/UEEF has at least one of them along on their mission (for their Zentreadi or Zentreadi encounter) to use... If the RFS(s) or Tirol have similar technology they don't necessarily need to bring it with them as they could potentially capture said technology at sites we know they have come to (AotSC states the REF/UEEF have captured additional RFSes, and we know they captured Tirol).

Though if you having cloning technology, why send the clones in large numbers in ships for colonies? Wouldn't it be easier to "clone" (to adult hood) on site as you build up? We know they can clone to adult-hood from Zentreadi sizing examples (and even the Masters).

Seto wrote:
The brass in the Army of the Southern Cross's HQ react to the Robotech Masters allegedly using mass cloning like it's a new and novel concept, having apparently forgotten their planet was invaded by a clone army just 20 years ago. (Adaptation-induced plot hole.)

It isn't necessarily an adaption-induced plot hole though. The Zentreadi clones are different than the Masters clones, which is what is found ot be "new and novel":
-Masters clones are being debated being some type of android vs clone ("Half-Moon", "Metal Fire")
-Masters clones are described as an android biosystem ("Metal Fire")
-Leonard believes they might be a cloned mutant strain of Zentreadi, completely ignoring the Zentreadi aren't thought of as an android biosystem (AFAIK) and first hand interaction account(s) ("Metal Fire")
-bio-electric device implanted in the solar plexus (possibly elsewhere given Zor Prime's neuro-sensor, and the Bioroids control network), which is not a feature found in Zentreadi ("Metal Fire")
-use of bio-genetically imprinted circuits Earth doesn't understand going into the Bioroid mecha (which include Biological diodes that interact with the pilot) ("Metal Fire")
-genetic testing of Masters is 100% human every time it is brought up, the Zentreadi are regarded as nearly identical and identical at various points (can't place the episodes atm)
-indications are the Zentreadi are grown as a single unit, indications are the Masters can do the same, but the Masters also appear to "assemble" from parts or have "spare parts" floating in tanks (we don't see that in TMS) ("The Trap", "Big Escape", other episodes that show the Zentreadi re-cloning for sizing purposes)

The ASC's HQ reaction to clones in general doesn't mean it wasn't done in the past, or something along those lines wasn't done, as it could be an example of something they may not be "proud of" by their present standards. Clones themselves are supposed to be genetic copies, but the technology that goes into growing the clone could also in theory be used as an artificial womb for "test tube babies" in which case is the result a cloned human or not?


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:18 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Opposed to the Macross storyline (where the UN uses cloning to repopulate the earth), in the Robotech storyline there is no evidence of the UEG making use of cloning within current canon.

That the United Earth Government in Robotech never attempted to replenish Earth's population using captured cloning technology might also have something to do with a few other factors:
  • Unlike the original Macross series, humanity in Robotech doesn't really understand robotechnology all that well... and most of the technically-skilled personnel went with the Expeditionary Forces into deep space. After what happened at the start of the First Robotech War, the UEG may understandably be more than slightly gunshy about employing an alien technology they don't fully understand.
  • The Zentradi Army cloning overtechnology the New UN Government obtained following the First Space War in Macross was a highly efficient, extremely swift system that was able to duplicate an individual so completely that the clone would even possess the same physical condition, memories, training, skills, and unconscious habits of the original person. This made it a practical way to duplicate people that had complex skills that were urgently needed and to beef up the population with mature adults who didn't need any kind of education or training before they could start contributing, kind of like transporter duplication in Star Trek. The Robotech version of cloning technology was only seen in use in one post-reboot title (the Love and War limited comic), and in that it appeared to be more in the style of the "artificial womb" capsule, with a fetus maturing in it at a relatively slow rate. If the cloning capsules in Robotech take years to make one individual, consume a lot of protoculture in the job, and/or don't implant a full skill set in the mind of the clone, it may simply not have been practical to try.



Jefffar wrote:
There is also the question of how many non-humans are a part of the UEEF, particularly Zentraedi on the outbound mission and Tirolians on the reclamation missions. Both are close enough to human to be very difficult to pick out.

This seems to have been subverted somewhat in post-reboot original titles... the UEEF has always been depicted as principally, some would say almost exclusively, human organization unless you count the ambassadors from the various Sentinels alien species. Post-reboot comics have also changed the appearance of the allied humanlike aliens (the Zentradi and Tirolians) to make them much easier to identify as being aliens at a glance. The Zentradi don't exactly blend into the crowd anymore, since the post-reboot survivors in Breetai's forces are all eight feet all and a delicate shade of pastel blue. The Tirolians don't seem to have ever joined the UEEF itself, and "space roman" dress aside the post-reboot ones seem to have unusually tall craniums (when they don't retain the unearthly pallor and willowy build of the ones from the TV series).

When you think about what Prelude did, it's a bit easier to understand how Marcus didn't realize Maia was a non-infringing "part-alien", given that she didn't look alien...



ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
The brass in the Army of the Southern Cross's HQ react to the Robotech Masters allegedly using mass cloning like it's a new and novel concept, having apparently forgotten their planet was invaded by a clone army just 20 years ago. (Adaptation-induced plot hole.)

It isn't necessarily an adaption-induced plot hole though. The Zentreadi clones are different than the Masters clones, which is what is found ot be "new and novel":
-Masters clones are being debated being some type of android vs clone ("Half-Moon", "Metal Fire")
-Masters clones are described as an android biosystem ("Metal Fire")

The UEDF can't seem to even come up with a consistent line on what they are... which is probably more the rewriter's fault than anything, but they act like a clone army is a novel idea rather than a reality of life that many of them had lived through once.


ShadowLogan wrote:
-genetic testing of Masters is 100% human every time it is brought up, the Zentreadi are regarded as nearly identical and identical at various points (can't place the episodes atm)

To be fair, they did say the same for the Zentradi at various points in the Macross Saga.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:15 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
Unlike the original Macross series, humanity in Robotech doesn't really understand robotechnology all that well... and most of the technically-skilled personnel went with the Expeditionary Forces into deep space. After what happened at the start of the First Robotech War, the UEG may understandably be more than slightly gunshy about employing an alien technology they don't fully understand.

But at the same time the UEEF doesn't officially leave until 2022, which gives them time (7-9years IINM) to have implemented some form of cloning either with or without Zentreadi assistance in the operation of their hardware. We know post FOA the UEDF/UEG was using Zentreadi advisors and personnel, and that continued into the UEEF. So the notion they need to fully understand the technology or be able to do it themselves shouldn't stop them given track record we can point to (case in point N-S Missiles, Shadow Device, Fold System, etc).

Seto wrote:
he Robotech version of cloning technology was only seen in use in one post-reboot title (the Love and War limited comic), and in that it appeared to be more in the style of the "artificial womb" capsule, with a fetus maturing in it at a relatively slow rate. If the cloning capsules in Robotech take years to make one individual, consume a lot of protoculture in the job, and/or don't implant a full skill set in the mind of the clone, it may simply not have been practical to try.

Robotech seems to have several versions of the technology available though:
-Zentreadi re-sizing (it is referred to as re-cloning at least once, by all depictions it does appear to use cloning)
-Masters observe that in trying to duplicate Zor (original) they wheren't paying attention to factors and brining the clones out to soon
-Masters also have their bio-android spare parts (seen floating in vats) that had life like texture and such (likely a form a cloning), which is only possible with fast grow methods
-even the Invid seem to have some form of cloning technology (resurrect dinosaurs, clone humans, generate artificial organs and limbs, etc)

Seto wrote:
The UEDF can't seem to even come up with a consistent line on what they are... which is probably more the rewriter's fault than anything, but they act like a clone army is a novel idea rather than a reality of life that many of them had lived through once.

I agree that the UEDF can't even come up with a consistent line, but it adds to the story (in RT are they really fighting aliens or themselves)..

I do not think a clone army is the novel idea though, they've seen it before. What they find novel is that the integration of that clone army with its technology resulting in a bio-mechanical life form ("Metal Fire").

Seto wrote:
To be fair, they did say the same for the Zentradi at various points in the Macross Saga.

I agree that happened in TMS that the status jumped around, which could be for any number of reasons (both in and out of universe). But the way the Masters genetics are handled is consistent and lacks that jumping around.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:27 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
But at the same time the UEEF doesn't officially leave until 2022, which gives them time (7-9years IINM) to have implemented some form of cloning either with or without Zentreadi assistance in the operation of their hardware.

Granted, they don't depart until 2022... but we don't know how resource-intensive cloning is in Robotech, apart from the implication it requires a fair amount of protoculture and that even the more advanced cloning technologies used by the Robotech Masters to create a new body from scratch seems to be a good deal more time-intensive than the Zentradi Army's cloning technology in Macross.

That's assuming humanity had the time and resources to devote to actually studying and understanding the technology in the middle of their major military buildup and the reconstruction of the planet's infrastructure... and remember, even in Macross the Zentradi didn't know HOW the damn things worked, only how to operate them.



ShadowLogan wrote:
[...] So the notion they need to fully understand the technology or be able to do it themselves shouldn't stop them given track record we can point to (case in point N-S Missiles, Shadow Device, Fold System, etc).

Point of order here... of the technologies you listed, only that last one is something humans were able to reproduce correctly, and they didn't even get THAT far until well into the 3rd Robotech War (and probably only after receiving technical assistance from the Tirolians). General Edwards obtained his shadow technology from the Haydonites and had their help implementing them, and when the UEEF recovered some of his undeleted notes they had the help of both the Haydonites and Karbarrans to reconstruct the technology. Even then, the only ones who understood the technology were explicitly the Haydonites. Literally the very first thing Admiral Hunter did with a neutron-s warhead was almost kill himself because he didn't have the first clue how it worked, almost simultaneously with Dr. Cochrane almost destroying Space Station Liberty by unplugging the shield around the warhead to see what would happen.

After the first few times they tinkered with an alien technology and it blew up in their faces, it's understandable they'd be gunshy about using something they didn't understand if it wasn't absolutely necessary. (After all, the guys calling the shots here had a front row seat for the triple-whammy of tech failures that opened the First Robotech War...)



ShadowLogan wrote:
Robotech seems to have several versions of the technology available though:
-Zentreadi re-sizing (it is referred to as re-cloning at least once, by all depictions it does appear to use cloning)

I don't recall it being referred to as recloning in the series. It was a cloning-based process in the OSM though... they flash-cloned another body and transferred the mind over, then converted the unoccupied body into undifferentiated matter and recycled it.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-even the Invid seem to have some form of cloning technology (resurrect dinosaurs, clone humans, generate artificial organs and limbs, etc)

I'm not sure that's really cloning... they resurrected dinosaurs and so on by recreating Earth's evolutionary process at an accelerated speed in laboratory conditions. They didn't just get 'hold of some dinosaur DNA and go full John Hammond. The humanoid Invid were the result of similar artificial and accelerated evolution, and the artificial organs and limbs were technological in nature.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree that happened in TMS that the status jumped around, which could be for any number of reasons (both in and out of universe). But the way the Masters genetics are handled is consistent and lacks that jumping around.

They jump back and forth between "is it a clone or a bio-android" several times... that's hardly what I'd call consistent.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:11 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
That's assuming humanity had the time and resources to devote to actually studying and understanding the technology in the middle of their major military buildup and the reconstruction of the planet's infrastructure... and remember, even in Macross the Zentradi didn't know HOW the damn things worked, only how to operate them.

I agree there are issues if they are going to use cloning to help shore up the population, but if they have access to the technology and people who know how to operate them the need for deeper understanding/study could wait.

Protoculture expenditure is of course an issue, one we are left to speculate on with lots of questions I don't think we can answer.

Personally I favor taking Leonard's statement with a grain of salt in Ep37 concerning the survivor count for a variety of reasons we've already discussed in the past.

Seto wrote:
Point of order here... of the technologies you listed, only that last one is something humans were able to reproduce correctly, and they didn't even get THAT far until well into the 3rd Robotech Wa

I think you misunderstand. Those technologies show that humans where quite willing to use alien technology, even with their incomplete understanding. Which is the minimum that would be required for them to use Zentreadi cloning technology in repopulatation efforts. They don't necessarily need to reproduce the technology either (unless they are going for long term use instead of a short-term boost), just have access to it.

Seto wrote:
I don't recall it being referred to as recloning in the series. It was a cloning-based process in the OSM though... they flash-cloned another body and transferred the mind over, then converted the unoccupied body into undifferentiated matter and recycled it.

Ep37 per Dana to Bowie when discussing her parents: "...their second meeting was even more interesting to continue the search for the Earthman she thought she hated my mother endured recloning in the protoculture chamber and was reduced to human size..."

This might be the only instance, but it would explain why there are two bodies in Zentreadi sizing chamber while it is action (it isn't a shrink/growth process, but a new body)

Seto wrote:
they resurrected dinosaurs and so on by recreating Earth's evolutionary process at an accelerated speed in laboratory conditions.

The only way they could do that though is with cloning. The way evolution and biology works, I don't think there is any other way to explain the results.

Seto wrote:
They jump back and forth between "is it a clone or a bio-android" several times... that's hardly what I'd call consistent.

Genetically speaking though they do not jump back and forth. What is in dispute is if they are dealing with a clone or a bio-android, either way the result has 100% human DNA since both involve biological systems.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:01 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Protoculture expenditure is of course an issue, one we are left to speculate on with lots of questions I don't think we can answer.

Sufficed to say, there's never going to be a satisfactory explanation... but the evidence available points to cloning having not played a role in Earth's recovery the way it did in Macross.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Personally I favor taking Leonard's statement with a grain of salt in Ep37 concerning the survivor count for a variety of reasons we've already discussed in the past.

As Leonard's remarks are corroborated by the narrator and the general staff of Alaska Base, I'm inclined to treat them as reliable and stick with the OSM-supportable critique that the published stats inadvertently grossly exaggerate the size of the available population.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I think you misunderstand. Those technologies show that humans where quite willing to use alien technology, even with their incomplete understanding.

When they're out-and-out desperate or have no other choice, sure. They used fold drives they didn't fully understand because without them there was no interstellar travel whatsoever, and therefore no mission to the Robotech Masters homeworld. They adopted neutron-s missiles, shadow devices, synchro cannons, etc. because they were desperate to break a multi-front multi-decade stalemate with the Invid and blindly trusted their alien allies.

There wasn't really anyone holding a gun to their heads to make them use what clone systems were available as tech salvage from Zentradi ships though... and after getting rather badly bitten several times in the not-too-distant past by using tech they didn't understand, that would tend to bias them against employing the cloning systems until they could be studied. Unlike shadow technology, where the Haydonites had, and advertised, a full understanding of the principles... they didn't have any such help with the secondhand Zentradi hardware. They didn't have a port in that storm until they liberated Tirol.



ShadowLogan wrote:
The only way they could do that though is with cloning. The way evolution and biology works, I don't think there is any other way to explain the results.

The way it's described, though, both in the original and the adaptation the Regess started more or less from scratch and compressed huge amounts of evolutionary time to go from single cells to dinosaurs in a matter of decades instead of millions of years.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:53 am
  

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Seto wrote:
Sufficed to say, there's never going to be a satisfactory explanation... but the evidence available points to cloning having not played a role in Earth's recovery the way it did in Macross.

I agree on this. The idea they used cloning in RT to shore up the population just is not supported, but then neither is 70k survivors yielding up millions of people by 2044 on Earth (not counting those lost to 2RW, and what ever was taken off Earth by the UEEF/Pioneer Mission, etc).

Seto wrote:
As Leonard's remarks are corroborated by the narrator and the general staff of Alaska Base, I'm inclined to treat them as reliable and stick with the OSM-supportable critique that the published stats inadvertently grossly exaggerate the size of the available population.

Alaska Base for the sole reason that population density isn't uniform across the planet, and there where areas not struck (along with areas struck that make no real sense IIRC the map) would seem to indicate it isn't reliable. Leonard wasn't also counting Zentreadi survivors who also assisted with reconstruction efforts (at least at the start, we're told specifically there are communities with large Zentreadi populations like New Detroit, Khyron could put together a "battalion" level strength force, plus you had Breetai flagship of ~15k of mostly as depicted giants, etc). Even the narrator is known to get things wrong or contradicts himself.

Seto wrote:
When they're out-and-out desperate or have no other choice, sure

But if your population has been reduced to ~70k and teetering on the brink of extinction (Gloval implies as much in Ep36) cloning might be that out-and-out desperation to give them numbers to defend themselves and ensure species survival.

Recall in Ep36 Gloval talks about Robotech forces returning. With a population of ~70k, it wouldn't take an overly large mixed force of "Zentreadi" crew-sized vessels to out number the entire human population (5 Destroyers and 4 Carriers based on RT.com infopedia, and they are likely to have a Cmd Ship and Scout ships in the mix to, maybe even a flagship). So there is an out-and-out needed for people, since AI based forces (of human origin) don't seem to have any real prevalence in TRM, Sent/NG/TSC or even TMS. Not that such systems don't exist, but they aren't known to have a numbers advantage over the human counterparts.

Seto wrote:
The way it's described, though, both in the original and the adaptation the Regess started more or less from scratch and compressed huge amounts of evolutionary time to go from single cells to dinosaurs in a matter of decades instead of millions of years.

I have problems with this description because it seems to fly in the face of how evolution works and would require them to duplicate the evolutionary pressures (and resulting mutations) exactly (which seems highly unlikely).

Cloning combined with genetic engineering makes the most sense IMHO given what we know about the Masters use of PC and biology applications. Genetic Engineering also would allow the Invid to "shape shift" if their DNA is being altered on the time scale we see.

Admittedly we don't know if the "dinosaurs" and such generated by this method are just examples of convergent evolution (allowing them to "look" like 80s concept of dinosaurs) or the real deal. We just have "eye witness" testimony that they are such, but no way for them to confirm what they are seeing is what they think they are seeing.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:41 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree on this. The idea they used cloning in RT to shore up the population just is not supported, but then neither is 70k survivors yielding up millions of people by 2044 on Earth (not counting those lost to 2RW, and what ever was taken off Earth by the UEEF/Pioneer Mission, etc).

That just shifts the blame to a different [plot hole/dialog inconsistency]... namely, whether the statements by the Alaska Base top brass, the Supreme Commander of the ASC, and the show's narrator to the effect that it was only the SDF-1's ~70,000 soldiers and civilians (incl. Lisa) who survived the bombardment or the statement of that one UEEF officer (was it General Reinhardt?) that there were millions of people still living on Earth in 2044.

(Both are technically OSM-driven statements, though in the former case they missed out the survivors who were not on Earth's surface at the time in Grand Cannon III and V, and the ones in space. The latter case being for an Earth that had been partially evacuated in the face of an alien invasion, but had never suffered the devastating orbital bombardment to begin with. For continuity's sake in Robotech, I would be inclined to favor the statements from the Macross and Masters Sagas.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
But if your population has been reduced to ~70k and teetering on the brink of extinction (Gloval implies as much in Ep36) cloning might be that out-and-out desperation to give them numbers to defend themselves and ensure species survival.

IIRC, he doesn't think they're on the brink of extinction as it is... but that they'd be done for if they suffered another attack, hence the whole mission to preemptively kick the Robotech Masters' teeth in that evolved into the Pioneer Mission once Sentinels was drafted.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I have problems with this description because it seems to fly in the face of how evolution works and would require them to duplicate the evolutionary pressures (and resulting mutations) exactly (which seems highly unlikely).

But it's something they're explicitly established to be doing, via advanced technology... evolution so fast that it is straight-up visible in real time.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:13 am
  

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Seto wrote:
That just shifts the blame to a different [plot hole/dialog inconsistency]... namely, whether the statements by the Alaska Base top brass, the Supreme Commander of the ASC, and the show's narrator to the effect that it was only the SDF-1's ~70,000 soldiers and civilians (incl. Lisa) who survived the bombardment or the statement of that one UEEF officer (was it General Reinhardt?) that there were millions of people still living on Earth in 2044.

The plot hole exists even if we discard TSC (in TSC it was an officer, pilot IIRC, not Reinhardt) in terms of numbers for 2044/end-of-NG. There are several large cities in TMS and TRM shown depicted, and all 3 post FOA imply/show a wide spread population in the Americas (at minimum). Population growth rates just do not work from a base of 70k (or even if we assume its rounded to 70k) to explain what we see later, since it would require humans to reproduce faster than any time in history (IIRC a previous discussion). If we don't allow cloning, that leaves very few real options:
-a large pool of people who aren't considered "survivors". Which is possible IF populated sites escape the RoD, from certain POV they might not be considered survivors of the war/RoD (though I think this is stretching it, but not without precedent).
-Zentreadi assimilation into society to the point they lose their ethnic identity by 2029, which seems unlikely to occur so fast but we know some % of Zentredai can pass for human. Or if not 2029, by the 21st MD in NG invades Earth.
-Zentreadi-human hybrids are more common than we have been lead to believe by TRM and TSC. This allows that 70k starting pool to be much larger from a reproduction standpoint. We know humans and zentreadi can produce off-spring in one-case (x3-4 times), so there could be more
-for what ever reason multiple births (twins, triplets, etc) became much more common, since population growth rates for human populations probably assume single births are the norm (if they become the exception or less common...).
-this one one IS POTENTIALLY GOING TO BE highly controversial, but it avoids the cloning technology completely and uses known human technology (assuming it survived the RoD). Use Zentreadi females as surrogates for IVF of pure human fertilized eggs (this would make the child 100% human, not a 1/2 breed). Now if this is implemented as forced (controversial) or voluntary (in terms of participation) procedure is open. It wouldn't take to many Zentreadi ships of all female crew to provide enough females to take the place of the entire human survivor population (see previous post).

The main issue is there would be some delay with some of these before they become viable for TRM and Pioneer, since there is only ~17years between RoD and TRM. That almost requires some mix of the above suggestions I would think since most of them do not work as a nice neat solution.

Seto wrote:
IIRC, he doesn't think they're on the brink of extinction as it is... but that they'd be done for if they suffered another attack, hence the whole mission to preemptively kick the Robotech Masters' teeth in that evolved into the Pioneer Mission once Sentinels was drafted.

Gloval Ep36: ...Mankind's survival depends upon us… The human race couldn't possibly survive another holocaust like the last one

If they can not survive another holocaust they would become extinct is the implication. So from a certain POV they can be seen as on the brink of extinction on Earth (given human DNA is also Tirolian DNA by all indications humans in the universe wouldn't become extinct), otherwise he wouldn't have felt a need to rush the operation (they are supposed to leave tomorrow afte rall).

Seto wrote:
But it's something they're explicitly established to be doing, via advanced technology... evolution so fast that it is straight-up visible in real time.

I don't come away with that impression though from the series. Yes the Invid are evolving, but it has more to do with genetic engineering if they are relying on technology to accomplish the feat IMHO. We'll probably have to agree to disagree.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:59 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
The plot hole exists even if we discard TSC [...]

I actually meant a line about "millions of people" that was in either Symphony of Light or the episode right before it... pretty sure it was said by the guy that RTSC established was General Reinhardt, but I could be wrong. (It was a nameless mook in the original.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
There are several large cities in TMS and TRM shown depicted, and all 3 post FOA imply/show a wide spread population in the Americas (at minimum). Population growth rates just do not work from a base of 70k (or even if we assume its rounded to 70k) to explain what we see later, since it would require humans to reproduce faster than any time in history (IIRC a previous discussion).

Hence the problem (read: plot hole), though we're getting off track.



ShadowLogan wrote:
If we don't allow cloning, that leaves very few real options:

The most obvious of which being that the later dialog that establishes millions of inhabitants is an error/inconsistency given that the former dialog regarding 70,000 survivors is repeated several times across multiple sagas.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-a large pool of people who aren't considered "survivors". Which is possible IF populated sites escape the RoD, from certain POV they might not be considered survivors of the war/RoD (though I think this is stretching it, but not without precedent).

Unlikely, given dialog indicating the bombardment was "total devastation" of Earth's surface... plus the obvious logistical consequences of a complete infrastructure loss that would be every bit as big a death sentence as the bombardment, just executed a bit slower.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-Zentreadi assimilation into society to the point they lose their ethnic identity by 2029, which seems unlikely to occur so fast but we know some % of Zentredai can pass for human. Or if not 2029, by the 21st MD in NG invades Earth.

Inconsistent with the implications in Scott's dialog and later presentation, which points to the Zentradi being effectively extinct circa 2042 as the result of the population being badly depleted by Khyron's revolt and the rest leaving Earth with the UEEF.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-Zentreadi-human hybrids are more common than we have been lead to believe by TRM and TSC. This allows that 70k starting pool to be much larger from a reproduction standpoint. We know humans and zentreadi can produce off-spring in one-case (x3-4 times), so there could be more

Also unlikely, given Marcus's apparent shock and surprise that there was a part-alien in the UEEF. If it were commonplace among humans, it wouldn't make any sense for him to so blatantly voice his hatred of aliens of all stripes... or the human leadership blatantly expressing their distrust of aliens in general. (Officially, Max and Miriya only have two children in Robotech... Tommy regards "Aurora" as being Dana tripping balls and nothing more, and they don't seem to remember or care about that throwaway line regarding a brother.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
-for what ever reason multiple births (twins, triplets, etc) became much more common, since population growth rates for human populations probably assume single births are the norm (if they become the exception or less common...).

Seems unlikely, but rampant abuse of fertility drugs could make it possible...



ShadowLogan wrote:
-this one one IS POTENTIALLY GOING TO BE highly controversial, but it avoids the cloning technology completely and uses known human technology (assuming it survived the RoD). Use Zentreadi females as surrogates for IVF of pure human fertilized eggs (this would make the child 100% human, not a 1/2 breed).

That sounds awfully close to slavery.




ShadowLogan wrote:
Gloval Ep36: ...Mankind's survival depends upon us… The human race couldn't possibly survive another holocaust like the last one

If they can not survive another holocaust they would become extinct is the implication. So from a certain POV they can be seen as on the brink of extinction on Earth (given human DNA is also Tirolian DNA by all indications humans in the universe wouldn't become extinct), otherwise he wouldn't have felt a need to rush the operation (they are supposed to leave tomorrow afte rall).

Granted, but the point I was making was that they're not on the brink of extinction as a result of natural pressures... even with Earth left in ruins, the threat of extinction is only coming from the prospect of ANOTHER large-scale alien invasion intent on murdering everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:07 pm
  

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And let's face it; once you've got cloning technology like that, the temptation to play with the buttons gets mighty serious..... :twisted:
"Let's just tweak the musculature a bit...and hey, to support that, we'll need to reinforce the skeleton.....okay, can't shirk the nervous system..."

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:17 am
  

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Knight

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Seto wrote:
I actually meant a line about "millions of people" that was in either Symphony of Light or the episode right before it... pretty sure it was said by the guy that RTSC established was General Reinhardt, but I could be wrong. (It was a nameless mook in the original.)

No such line exists in Ep84 or Ep85 for the RT dialogue (Legacy, if they did any edits on post DVD/Blu-ray release I don't have those). I have full transcripts for those two episodes, no line exits that uses the term "million" (it gets used in Ep83 in terms of odds). Sparks objects to obliterating their troops still on the planet, but no hard numbers regarding population (wiped out 2 divisions, and lost contact with a 3rd, along with individual ship losses).

Seto wrote:
The most obvious of which being that the later dialog that establishes millions of inhabitants is an error/inconsistency given that the former dialog regarding 70,000 survivors is repeated several times across multiple sagas.

IINM though 70k figure runs into Ep37 and then disappears. I know we've had several discussions on this in the past (and most the of ideas are just repeated with nothing new as they have issues), and short of HG coming out with an explanation it will still be a an issue. Which likely isn't going to happen anytime soon (unless we count the official, but non-canon, 2E RPG as giving us some idea on their thinking which would then indicate additional survivors and Leonard is doing a POV thing).

70k seems off to when you consider Leonard told the Masters he would need at least 7 days to evacuate Earth. If for the moment we assume he wasn't just stalling for the time (which is probably what he was doing), and the stats for the Tokagawa in AotSC are accurate... and we know (via visuals) the ASC had at least one Tokagawa in its fleet around this time (lets assume it was still functional and available), which has a capacity of 150k people (AotSC). So Leonard should have been able to evacuate the population, IF it was in fact based on nothing more than the 70k people after ~18years with a modest growth rate of 1.2% (yields up ~86k people, some of which would be offworld anyway with the UEEF) or even 2% (~100k) at an unlikely ~4.4% we've reach the 150k capacity (but some of that 150k are already accounted for elsewhere so the ship still won't be at maximum occupancy per canon stats).

Seto wrote:
That sounds awfully close to slavery

As I said it has the potential to be controversial given there are numerous ways it could be implemented. In the real world we have surragates for IFV, so from a voluntary perspective it wouldn't be slavery. If it is forced upon them, yes it is close to if not slavery, though I think this particular angle is unlikely for a host of reasons.

Seto wrote:
Granted, but the point I was making was that they're not on the brink of extinction as a result of natural pressures... even with Earth left in ruins, the threat of extinction is only coming from the prospect of ANOTHER large-scale alien invasion intent on murdering everyone.

Extinction from the prospect of another alien invasion isn't the only prospect they have to contend with, and natural pressures come from a variety of angles:
-famine/drought (do they have access to enough farmland to support the human AND Zentreadi population, how much excess capacity do they have)
-cosmic threats (asteroid/comet strike, some other astronomical phenomena) that are possible, while the odds are in humanity's favor it can still happen
-natural disasters (tornado, earthquake, powerful storms, wildfire, etc) that break infrastructure that they can't plan for
-disease (not just terrestrial either, the Zentreadi could bring extra-terrestrial disease with them, or Zentreadi biology reacts to terrestrial diseases making them more dangerous)


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning in the REF
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:12 am
  

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IMHO, the REF used cloning devices to polster their forces, otherwise they wouldn't have the manpower after the battle agains the Regent, T.R. Edwards and to send attack waves to reclaim Earth.

In the series it is never mentioned :-(.

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