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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:05 pm
  

D-Bee

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Comment: Once upon a time I started writing "Insurrection". No, it's not likely to be completed... still...
Right, so I wanted to draw up deck plans for the Ikazuchi because of an ancient thread here about their true size. I start viewing the show and TSC and every picture I can on Robotechresearch. So far I'm counting 5 DIFFERENT kinds of Ikazuchi. From short to long:
1. Shorty without the four vertical rectangles just aft of the bow seen on most designs. This version is seen in the big fleet view with ALUCE base below in episode 84. I shall call him Stubby and he shall be mine...
2. "Normal" with battloid launch bays. Engine cowlings start just aft of command tower superstructure.
3. TSC "Normal" with fighter launch bays and recovery bay between the two upper bays.
4. TSC "Abnormal" without any of the Alpha Launch bays seen in TSC above ALUCE.
5. "Extended Edition" in TSC with extra hull between the command tower superstructure and the Engine cowlings. Example of this is the Ikazuchi rising from the landing pad in the TSC-memory of 21st Mars Division leaving for Earth.
...Any others?
Tentative lengths for these with an Alpha launch bay width of 60 meters including "bunker" is 350m for Shorty, 410m for normals and 700-ish meters for the Extended.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:41 pm
  

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Four.

Those in the TV series.
Those in the SC movie.
Those in RT RPG ed 1.
And those in RT RPG ed 2.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:48 pm
  

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Bamse wrote:
Right, so I wanted to draw up deck plans for the Ikazuchi because of an ancient thread here about their true size. I start viewing the show and TSC and every picture I can on Robotechresearch. So far I'm counting 5 DIFFERENT kinds of Ikazuchi. From short to long:

Officially... just two.

The pre-refit type... which is the design from the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, and thus appears in the Robotech TV series' "New Generation" saga. This is the version with the lighter hull color scheme and the six launch bays holding 24 Alpha battloids apiece.

The post-refit type... which is a modified design that appears only in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. It was an upgraded version that received a shadow device for stealth use, a modest point-defense gun battery, and its launch bays for 144 fighters were replaced by six banks of ten Battlestar Galactica-style catapults.



Being a hand-animated series produced on a limited budget, Genesis Climber MOSPEADA's animation was far from perfect. It doesn't happen as often with modern production techniques, but inconsistencies and moments of off-model animation are inevitable in any animated series regardless of budget. It's a bad habit that Robotech fansites fell into without new material to chew over... trying to turn every moment of off-model animation into something intentional.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:22 am
  

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The Nuetron-S missile tenders could be another class as well.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:53 am
  

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Knight

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Seto wrote:
Officially... just two.

The pre-refit type... which is the design from the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, and thus appears in the Robotech TV series' "New Generation" saga. This is the version with the lighter hull color scheme and the six launch bays holding 24 Alpha battloids apiece.

The post-refit type... which is a modified design that appears only in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. It was an upgraded version that received a shadow device for stealth use, a modest point-defense gun battery, and its launch bays for 144 fighters were replaced by six banks of ten Battlestar Galactica-style catapults.

Possibly 3rd and 4th:
-"Invasion" comic (#1) does have the 10th MD with Iks AND NO Alphas (which would require a new variant for Ikazuchi). I can't tell if the Iks (3 on pg2) are Pre or Post Refit as the QLB/Tubes are "closed". Officially the only size for RT Condor Battloids (AFAIK) put them as being much larger than the Alpha Battloid, and the Conbat Fighter has a wider wingspan than the Alpha (over 1meter), so using either Pre/Post-Refit standards won't work. The design is said to be 3rd RT War standard (RT.com infopedia, AotSC is more vague just "long been the backbone") for the UEEF.
-If we consider the flashback stills in NG#1 as immune to AE, there would be an Ik. variant/relative displayed. (not saying we should or should not)

Seto wrote:
Being a hand-animated series produced on a limited budget, Genesis Climber MOSPEADA's animation was far from perfect. It doesn't happen as often with modern production techniques, but inconsistencies and moments of off-model animation are inevitable in any animated series regardless of budget. It's a bad habit that Robotech fansites fell into without new material to chew over... trying to turn every moment of off-model animation into something intentional.

I think though that if an AE (or dialogue error) is reproduced/repeated it lends more to the idea of being intentional, especially if its spreadout over multiple episodes and to a lesser degree scenes/angles. I do not think that applies to the Ik though, if it did we'd have to consider the Horizon-class (granted officially its supposed to have variants beyond the -T, both a B and E are said to exist per RT.com Infopedia).

Jeffar wrote:
The Nuetron-S missile tenders could be another class as well.

Nothing indicates the Ik. in this case are any different than stock Iks. Their mecha complement might be different, but I don't think that qualifes to earn them the distinction of being another class of vessel. The ship likely has some ability to dock, and given the design I would think that a docking port makes more sense on the bottom or nose so that a docked Ik in an "open" or "semi-open" bay could still launch any fighters or use its guns to aide the base/station.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:29 pm
  

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Depends on your tolerance for including pre-production materials. I would point out the IZUM-10 (or whatever its called) is not an Ikazuchi but either a predecessor or more likely companion class dropship (Horizon = Company, Garfish = Battalion, IZUM-10 = Brigade, Ikazuchi = Division) since we see an Ikazuchi hiding on the far side of the MARS III Orbital Armory.

To whit, there are 3 types: Divisional Dropship (Robotech), Fleet Carrier (The Shadow Chronicles), Heavy Cruiser w/Reflex Cannon (Preproduction version).


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:12 pm
  

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I've generally rationalized it thus.
I ignore the odd art, and look at general features and roles. Which narrows it down a lot. All the ikazuchis can be narrowed down to two hull forms that way.

The carrier version seen in tSC, which is long, has the hollow 'handle' area below the bridge, and has launch tubes.
The landing ship version in the new generation episodes, which is shorter and has the quick launch bays.

I figure the quick launch bays themselves are semi modular, with versions available to carry alphas, condors, or whatever other mecha would fill the role for a given time period. Larger mecha just having a reduction on numbers. Would let you do version's for say, Manticores, Logans, or Ajax if you really want.

The shorter hull would be a LST type, with large holds for cargo or ground mecha, and quarters space for large numbers of infantry and other ground forces. Would also explain the lack of real turrets on the underside, it would need the room for landing gear and cargo handling gear, letting it land and deploy its forces directly.
There would be subtypes for this one, for things like logistics ships, repair ships, personnel transports, etc, which would basically be different internal layouts of quarters, cargo bay, and special gear.

The carrier version would have the longer hull to obtain larger hanger space, and lack much of a mecha compliment beyond the fighter wings.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:29 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
Officially... just two. [...]

Possibly 3rd and 4th:
-"Invasion" comic (#1) does have the 10th MD with Iks AND NO Alphas (which would require a new variant for Ikazuchi). I can't tell if the Iks (3 on pg2) are Pre or Post Refit as the QLB/Tubes are "closed". Officially the only size for RT Condor Battloids (AFAIK) put them as being much larger than the Alpha Battloid, and the Conbat Fighter has a wider wingspan than the Alpha (over 1meter), so using either Pre/Post-Refit standards won't work.

Highly unlikely... for a few different reasons:
  1. As noted previously, there are officially only the two versions of the Ikazuchi-class carrier in Robotech... the TV and RTSC versions, or pre- and post-refit versions respectively.
  2. The remark about the 10th Mars Division not having received the "new" Alpha fighter prior to the mission doesn't really fit with the idea of them having NO Alphas whatsoever. The VF/A-6 was approximately 16 years old when the scene in question takes place in 2038, so the only context in which the Alpha being "new" makes sense is if Lance's squadron in particular was supposed to have received the VF/A-6Z atmosphere-optimized model. Since the story's focus is exclusively on Lance Belmont and his fellow crew on a Garfish-class ship, there's not really anything to definitely rule out there being Alphas on the Ikazuchi-class ships... just not the "new" VF/A-6Z variant. As you noted, we don't actually see what's in those bunkers.
  3. The Condor doesn't have official specs in Robotech, to the best of my knowledge. OSM-ly, the AS-C03 Condor was the same size as a Legioss (Alpha), and even shared a great many parts with it. It should have no difficulty fitting into the TV series (pre-refit) Ikazuchi-class launch bays in terms of width or height. The "nose" might be a bit difficult, but that could be worked around easily enough.
  4. The launch bays ("bunkers") in the pre-refit (TV) version are entirely external to the ship. It would not require any modification of the ship itself to reconfigure the bays to carry another craft... and it would be painfully shortsighted for the UEEF to have made its primary carrier only able to carry one specific model of craft. Even if the bays were reconfigured to carry something else, it wouldn't be a new version of the ship itself as the ship's design did not change.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I think though that if an AE (or dialogue error) is reproduced/repeated it lends more to the idea of being intentional, especially if its spreadout over multiple episodes and to a lesser degree scenes/angles. I do not think that applies to the Ik though, if it did we'd have to consider the Horizon-class (granted officially its supposed to have variants beyond the -T, both a B and E are said to exist per RT.com Infopedia).

That'd fall under the header of "fan-fiction", for the most part... but a lot of it is, as I conjectured, probably the result of fans losing perspective for want of new information.

Harmony Gold acknowledges/canonizes animation errors only sparingly, and only when they make sense in terms of fitting the shows together, so the vast majority of them retain the official context of "off-model animation".

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:54 pm
  

D-Bee

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Comment: Once upon a time I started writing "Insurrection". No, it's not likely to be completed... still...
In Symphony of Light there is a shot of a bunch of red ikazuchi turrets on a red hull firing. This suggests to me that some Ikazuchis have dorsal gun turrets. Certainly not all as there are plenty of ventral shots and renderings in the comics showing no visible turrets. Even if the inclusion does not necessarily make for another class it is certainly a modification of note.

I would add here that the one thing I try to ignore in size comparisons is when ships cross line of sight. There is just no consistency in either New Gen or the Shadow Chronicles for that. BUT, I contend that including variation and in this case classes broadens and enriches my games and is not in my opinion a mere bad habit of avid fans. If there can be four or more classes of Ikazuchi then that's half a floor plan book right there. Add in at least three or four Garfish we see and Palladium's next source book has practically written itself.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:48 pm
  

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Bamse wrote:
In Symphony of Light there is a shot of a bunch of red ikazuchi turrets on a red hull firing. This suggests to me that some Ikazuchis have dorsal gun turrets.

All Ikazuchi-class ships have dorsal gun turrets... the brief appearance of what appears to be ventral guns was, and is, an acknowledged animation error that hasn't been retroactively canonized by Harmony Gold. Officially, there are only the eight dorsal gun turrets on the Ikazuchi-class (not counting the point-defense guns on the refit).



Bamse wrote:
BUT, I contend that including variation and in this case classes broadens and enriches my games and is not in my opinion a mere bad habit of avid fans.

It's not a problem when it's something someone is doing for their game... but the fandom has been obsessing over this stuff for SO LONG that a lot of them have forgotten most of the stuff they've come up with isn't official. That's led to a lot of problems for Robotech since the reboot.



Bamse wrote:
If there can be four or more classes of Ikazuchi then that's half a floor plan book right there. Add in at least three or four Garfish we see and Palladium's next source book has practically written itself.

You'd think so... but the reality is rather different.

Y'see, the current (second) edition of the Robotech RPG is being kept on a short leash by Harmony Gold. Their current creative director and management were not exactly happy with the wildly inaccurate first edition of the RPG and as such one of their goals for the second (Shadow Chronicles) edition was to keep the RPG within eyeshot of official canon by exercising editorial oversight over the publication process. The few "out there" ideas that made their way into the current edition are all pretty plausible within the current official canon, like the Gura Invid. They've shot down at least one attempt to get a fan design based on an in-series inconsistency already for not being based on the OSM, and it's pretty much guaranteed they'd do the same to any similar concepts unless they've got official precedent from the Japanese source material (like the UEEF Marines book mecha did) or are nicked from an older but not disowned Robotech title (like the Marines book "destroids").

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:24 pm
  

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I'd say that UEEF Marines, Genesis Pits and New Generation all show a degree of willingness to stray outside the box of what we see on screen. We even have 2 models of the Sylphid fighter (though not the veritevh some believe should be there). We also have some new creations appearing in the minis game (production pending).

Based on that I think we have the precedent to believe there is room to expand. The breadth and depth of that room is hard to quantify. The VF-1R made it, but the mini-destroids did not.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:20 am
  

D-Bee

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Comment: Once upon a time I started writing "Insurrection". No, it's not likely to be completed... still...
Thanks Knight for the heads up on what's down with naval ups and downs terminology :-) I shall leave it unedited so all can follow the thread.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:26 am
  

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I'm not saying there is a 3rd or 4th type, just that it is possible within canon depictions.

Seto wrote:
The remark about the 10th Mars Division not having received the "new" Alpha fighter prior to the mission doesn't really fit with the idea of them having NO Alphas whatsoever. The VF/A-6 was approximately 16 years old when the scene in question takes place in 2038, so the only context in which the Alpha being "new" makes sense is if Lance's squadron in particular was supposed to have received the VF/A-6Z atmosphere-optimized model. Since the story's focus is exclusively on Lance Belmont and his fellow crew on a Garfish-class ship, there's not really anything to definitely rule out there being Alphas on the Ikazuchi-class ships... just not the "new" VF/A-6Z variant. As you noted, we don't actually see what's in those bunkers.

Don't get me wrong, I know there are a few ways to spin the 10th MD comments about the Alpha. But based on the depiction in the canon Invasion Comic (and maybe even LLA OVA, haven't seen much of it) the Alpha did not take part on any level and is even indicated as such (which I admit "us" could be limited to specific portions of the 10th, but it could also be the entire 10th MD given Lancer's unit has to rely on Condors exclusively, if Alpha's are present I would think they'd get a mention as escorts).

Seto wrote:
The Condor doesn't have official specs in Robotech, to the best of my knowledge. OSM-ly, the AS-C03 Condor was the same size as a Legioss (Alpha), and even shared a great many parts with it. It should have no difficulty fitting into the TV series (pre-refit) Ikazuchi-class launch bays in terms of width or height. The "nose" might be a bit difficult, but that could be worked around easily enough.

I know you've stated as much in the past concerning the Condor's size, but it doesn't take much to poke holes in that idea:
-space mobile Condors have that Space Booster Pack (seen in animation both 85ep and IINM LLA, but not Invasion Comic when in atmosphere) on the rear increasing their size over a baseline Alpha Battloid, meaning they aren't going to fit in the same bay with depicted gear/configuration. Nothing indicates the Condor would operate in space without the SBP in canon depictions (not that it couldn't given the 2E RPG).
-the Condor's own snout assembly also stretches out the volume of space it would need over a Alpha-battloid. While one might be able to work with it, it is still a negative factor that makes it more difficult for it to use the same Alpha-Battloid QLB we see in the animation.

That adds up to the Ikazuchi needing specific QLBs for the respective mecha, regardless if we go with 2E RPG size specs or OSM size specs.

Seto wrote:
The launch bays ("bunkers") in the pre-refit (TV) version are entirely external to the ship. It would not require any modification of the ship itself to reconfigure the bays to carry another craft... and it would be painfully shortsighted for the UEEF to have made its primary carrier only able to carry one specific model of craft. Even if the bays were reconfigured to carry something else, it wouldn't be a new version of the ship itself as the ship's design did not change.

Short sighted I can agree with, but THIS IS the UEEF we are talking about. How many short sighted or poor design decisions have the two of us discussed in the past connected to the UEEF? (I think we have 5: various aspects of the Alpha, various aspects to the Beta, design aspects of the Cyclone, recovery options for the Garfish and Ikazuchi, am I missing any without getting into specifics)

We know from AotSC and Infopedia (plus "official RPG takes) that the Ikazuchi in 2042/44 did not just carry Alphas. So it is reasonable to assume the ship isn't designed to carry just one specific model/family-line (OSM wise is another matter based on previous statements made by you IIRC). However the QLBs deliver specialized features by all indications, and might require specific features on the host craft to be utilized that could push for variants with certain internal features (or capable of supporting a given feature on a QLB) as new QLBs are adopted or developed.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:40 pm
  

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Just tossing this out as a thought...
...in Real Life ships of a class don't always look identical. Different shipyards can (and do) end up making slight modifications to the ship due to one reason or another.
Thus you might have 10 or 20 ships of a single class... and might have 12 that look one way 4 more that look a second way and two pairs of oddballs that look different still (because one was the test bed for the blah blah and the other was where someone had a bright idea for what the next class needs...)

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:42 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Just tossing this out as a thought...
...in Real Life ships of a class don't always look identical. Different shipyards can (and do) end up making slight modifications to the ship due to one reason or another.
Thus you might have 10 or 20 ships of a single class... and might have 12 that look one way 4 more that look a second way and two pairs of oddballs that look different still (because one was the test bed for the blah blah and the other was where someone had a bright idea for what the next class needs...)


not to mention upgrade cycles, repaired damage, individual refits to new roles...

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:12 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
I'd say that UEEF Marines, Genesis Pits and New Generation all show a degree of willingness to stray outside the box of what we see on screen.

Two points on this...
  1. "What we see on screen" is not the sum total of Robotech's official material. The post-reboot comics are also considered at least pseudocanon, though their actual level of canonicity seems to be in flux lately... seemingly based on Tommy Yune's mood.
  2. Despite the superficial appearance of recent books "coloring outside the lines", the allegedly deviant material only gets a pass when it's either directly plausible within the established setting or OSM-derived:
    • The "Frankenmecha"/IMUs from the New Generation book are not unprecedented in the OSM. In fact, the SDR-04 Phalanx destroid was an improvised mecha in the original Macross, developed aboard the titular ship while she sailed back to Earth. Some of the Macross video games introduced others, including the LDR-04 Maverick and VF-X3 Medusa. The idea had sound OSM precedent, so it got rubber-stamped.
    • The idea behind the Gura Invid, that genesis pits could mistakenly fuse living flesh and technology together into a seamless whole where one cannot be told apart from the other is right out of Prelude. That's what happens to General T.R. Edwards when he's knocked into a genesis pit... he ends up fused to his own prosthetic eye and an Invid "brain" computer and the resulting organism is not hindered in the least by it. It got a pass because the idea behind it was already official canon.
    • The UEEF Marines themselves probably got a pass because the Macross OSM had a Spacy Marine Corps in the UN Forces. The aliens are all pre-existing Sentinels holdovers. The returning Sentinels mecha got new art to avoid anything with the potential to be legally contentious, and the "new" mecha are all nicked from the OSM's concept art for MOSPEADA. Thus it's all in the two safe categories of "old" and "OSM".



Jefffar wrote:
We even have 2 models of the Sylphid fighter (though not the veritevh some believe should be there). We also have some new creations appearing in the minis game (production pending).

That's one of the few overt deviations from the official line... and it's incredibly minor (so much so it's literally just the one sentence). The only real, significant deviation from canon is the RPG having I-can't-believe-it's-not-EBSIS, when there are no rival states mentioned or alluded to officially.

(All I'll say of the "new" creations for the miniatures game is that they look suspiciously like some designs from the old Macross PC Engine games from the early 90's... so "OSM-inspired" probably gets them a pass.)



Jefffar wrote:
Based on that I think we have the precedent to believe there is room to expand. The breadth and depth of that room is hard to quantify. The VF-1R made it, but the mini-destroids did not.

The pattern in officially-recognized animation errors and inconsistencies is extremely easy to spot. They endorse the ones that either provide technical continuity between sagas (e.g. the VF-1's nose lasers, a design feature shared with the Alpha) or hearken back to the original Japanese works (the YF-1R's monitor turret isn't a good aesthetic fit for the original series, but that weapons configuration is far from unprecedented in Macross).

The ones that are purely fan speculation or directly contradict the OSM tend to end up on the rejected pile, like the Sylphid veritech, Giant Alpha, and a half-dozen fanmade classes for the ASC fleet.





ShadowLogan wrote:
I'm not saying there is a 3rd or 4th type, just that it is possible within canon depictions.

Without some kind of concrete evidence, I'd have a hard time accepting that assertion... there are just too many other potential explanations.



ShadowLogan wrote:
[...] but it could also be the entire 10th MD given Lancer's unit has to rely on Condors exclusively, if Alpha's are present I would think they'd get a mention as escorts).

The question then becomes "was the 10th Mars the only division involved?", because the wreckage of a number of other division craft suggests they probably weren't. It would be reasonable for some divisions to be equipped in different ways from others, depending on their operational profile and original home base.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-space mobile Condors have that Space Booster Pack (seen in animation both 85ep and IINM LLA, but not Invasion Comic when in atmosphere) on the rear increasing their size over a baseline Alpha Battloid,

That thing with the backpack is actually a separate mecha entirely... IIRC its name was the Jackal in the production material for MOSPEADA. There shouldn't be any impediment to the Condor operating in space as it was, in the MOSPEADA and Robotech versions, a prototype/direct predecessor to the Legioss/Alpha.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-the Condor's own snout assembly also stretches out the volume of space it would need over a Alpha-battloid. While one might be able to work with it, it is still a negative factor that makes it more difficult for it to use the same Alpha-Battloid QLB we see in the animation.

It's possible they simply carry fewer units, and there is the suggestion of some articulation in the cockpit "snout" in the development art. Instead of six Condors per column they could be carrying three, and it'd work just fine in the existing launch bunkers.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Short sighted I can agree with, but THIS IS the UEEF we are talking about. How many short sighted or poor design decisions have the two of us discussed in the past connected to the UEEF?

Touche, sir.

Still, with the bunkers of the pre-refit model firmly outside the hull it should be an easy job to rework them for any craft they need to fit... and we know the UEEF loooooooves its modular hangars in this time period. Instead of a third type, it may simply be "pre-refit with _________ hangar module".

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:07 am
  

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Knight

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Seto wrote:
The question then becomes "was the 10th Mars the only division involved?", because the wreckage of a number of other division craft suggests they probably weren't. It would be reasonable for some divisions to be equipped in different ways from others, depending on their operational profile and original home base.

I think it is implied that 10th MD was the only one involved for that operation. It was supposed to link up with pre-established ground forces (Point K-style, Resistance, Col. Wolf, etc).

Seto wrote:
That thing with the backpack is actually a separate mecha entirely... IIRC its name was the Jackal in the production material for MOSPEADA. There shouldn't be any impediment to the Condor operating in space as it was, in the MOSPEADA and Robotech versions, a prototype/direct predecessor to the Legioss/Alpha.

No it wasn't the Jackal or sometimes called the Super Condor (or just Condor II). I pulled up my copy of the Imaifiles, on pg51 of 118 the Jackal and Condor are in a lineup, but neither are labled as the mecha in question (names are used on two separate designs), then again on pg73 of 118 it has 51's Condor labled as the Jackal, but again it isn't the mecha in question.

This topic thread from the old (2008) RDFHQ messageboard includes lineart and (official?) CG art showing both a Condor I and Condor II/Super Condor. We can see that the SuperCondor/Condor II is the mecha being described in the Imaifiles as either the Condor or Jackal.
http://rdfhqcommunicationscenter.yuku.c ... otech.html

Given the still frame from the 85ep, plus LLA OVA, and Invasion comic it is clear the backpack is removable. All three match up to the Condor I design. I agree the Condor should be able to operate w/o the pack, but currently all depictions in canon under these conditions have the Condor using the pack in space (and if we use the 2E RPG's stats its flight speed, where it appears to be considered w/o such a pack, is outclassed by just about everyone in space as it can only do 140mph for "short bursts", for comparison the ASC's Manticore and UEEF Bioroid Interceptor can both pull 300mph w/o issue, the RDF's EVA pod does "nearly 100mph" and it isn't for "short bursts").

Seto wrote:
It's possible they simply carry fewer units, and there is the suggestion of some articulation in the cockpit "snout" in the development art. Instead of six Condors per column they could be carrying three, and it'd work just fine in the existing launch bunkers.

Carrying fewer units is something I would lump under the heading of "a negative factor". Another problem is you are assuming the OSM size for the Condor, given the size in "official HG" material (2E RPG, it indicates HG might not be following the OSM here given the backstory is the Condor was a Beta-competitor) that means it might not fit as well as you believe.

Seto wrote:
Still, with the bunkers of the pre-refit model firmly outside the hull it should be an easy job to rework them for any craft they need to fit... and we know the UEEF loooooooves its modular hangars in this time period. Instead of a third type, it may simply be "pre-refit with _________ hangar module".

True, but I disagree that it would be an easy job to rework them for "any craft they need to fit" as there are simply some mecha that would be impractical due to their size (Beta, VF-1, depending on where you get the size for the Condor, maybe even the AGAC, etc) for a given type (Rack vs Tube) without requiring stretched versions or a new type.

Indications are though the ship design is 12 years old, if we factor in development time it is even older. If UEEF Marines is to be believed (by implication I don't have the book) that SLMH mecha are used by the UEEF, then Ikazuchi that can support them probably necessitating a variant (SLMH storage requirements differ from PC canisters, and then who knows what else might have been "in" at the time that was phased out/replaced).

We are also assuming the QLBs are actually modular, I don't think there is any actual statement to that effect. The UEEF could simply be saving time by duplicating known features. Really if the UEEF was looking for modular launch bays you'd think they would adopt the Garfish bays for that role (we know they are modular).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:32 am
  

D-Bee

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Comment: Once upon a time I started writing "Insurrection". No, it's not likely to be completed... still...
I too find it unlikely that the bunkers can readily fit other mecha. More likely is that mecha too big for either Battlestar Galactica style launch tubes or Alpha bunkers are launched via the nose, rear or the underslung launch bay (never seen but always assumed).

It COULD be, unless officially stated otherwise, that the Alpha bunkers were the refit and the launch tubes standard as a response to the 10th MD's demise. The Alphas had apparently proven a superior means of point defense for capital ships. I've always felt the 21st really did not anticipate much resistance until they were in the atmosphere as they didn't launch their Alphas in preparation for the battle but rather as a response to it. It also appears the Ships are made for slow continuous thruster decent through the atmosphere which had apparently never left them sitting ducks previously.

I don't own Invasion and maybe it describes why 10th MD doesn't have Alphas yet Point K is laden with them. Why is that?


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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:42 am
  

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Knight

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Bamse wrote:
I don't own Invasion and maybe it describes why 10th MD doesn't have Alphas yet Point K is laden with them. Why is that?


10th MD doesn't have Alphas due to availability. The simple fact is we don't know when Point K was established. The 10th MD doesn't seem to be concerned with linking up with a Point-# base, just resistance units (assumed to be affiliated with Col. Wolfe) to assault Reflex Point directly. So Point-K might not be around in 2038 (when 10th MD takes place), we aren't even sure when Point-K was established (if we consider Lancer and Lunk it would indicate the Point-bases are post 10th MD developments).

#1 pg3 from Dimitry: "Fine, but some of the guys are concerned that Admiral Hunter's Expedition couldn't spare any transformable Veritech mecha for us."
(Note this isn't exactly true, they all have Cyclones as emergency mecha, though it does make one wonder why "transformable Veritech" is used, aren't all Veritechs supposed to be transformable?, but that is for another time/place). In #2 we learn the team had been training for the new Alpha, but would instead be falling back on the old Conbat design (which I think they would know before launching, but this was in a flashback sequence).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:33 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
I think it is implied that 10th MD was the only one involved for that operation. It was supposed to link up with pre-established ground forces (Point K-style, Resistance, Col. Wolf, etc).

Other ERFs shown have markings for multiple divisions... it would be rather odd for them to send just the one.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Given the still frame from the 85ep, plus LLA OVA, and Invasion comic it is clear the backpack is removable.

Slight problem... the production materials don't have any art for any kind of "backpack" on the AS-C03 Condor, and in the one scene depicting the Condor-like mecha in MOSPEADA's 11th episode the artbooks note that's during the actual drop operation and there are no Ikazuchi-class ships depicted. So we can't conclude those are Condors, and even if they are we can't conclude the "backpack" model was launched from an Ikazuchi-class ship.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Another problem is you are assuming the OSM size for the Condor, given the size in "official HG" material (2E RPG, it indicates HG might not be following the OSM here given the backstory is the Condor was a Beta-competitor) that means it might not fit as well as you believe.

Are we really going to make me point out the obvious logical flaw with this that even Harmony Gold doesn't consider the RPG canon? Even in the OSM the Condor didn't have detailed official stats, we only know it's approximately the same size as the Legioss (RT: Alpha) because we're told it's the proof-of-concept for the Legioss and shares a large number of parts with. The RPG is pretty obviously just swinging for the fences on this one, possibly based on the larger but similar Jackal AG as many Robotech fans confuse the two. It would hardly be the first cockup in the second edition.



ShadowLogan wrote:
True, but I disagree that it would be an easy job to rework them for "any craft they need to fit" as there are simply some mecha that would be impractical due to their size (Beta, VF-1, depending on where you get the size for the Condor, maybe even the AGAC, etc) for a given type (Rack vs Tube) without requiring stretched versions or a new type.

A fair point... I suppose, as in the OSM, the carrying of larger craft would be the role of the ships with more space in which to do so, like the Garfish-class transporters and the docking port underneath the Horizont descent shuttles. The Condor, however, should fit with little-to-no modification given what we know of it from the OSM.



ShadowLogan wrote:
We are also assuming the QLBs are actually modular, I don't think there is any actual statement to that effect. The UEEF could simply be saving time by duplicating known features. Really if the UEEF was looking for modular launch bays you'd think they would adopt the Garfish bays for that role (we know they are modular).

It seems a reasonable assumption, but you have a point... though the capacity of the Garfish-class's bays are much too small for the number of fighters they wanted to carry on the larger ship. Barring the non-canon remarks from the RPG about the UEEF using things like VF-1s and the highly dubious statement about the 1st ERF having had no Alphas, the obvious point is that the UEEF never used any fighters other than the Alpha on those ships and thus never had any need to convert the bays to house any other type of aircraft.



Bamse wrote:
I too find it unlikely that the bunkers can readily fit other mecha. More likely is that mecha too big for either Battlestar Galactica style launch tubes or Alpha bunkers are launched via the nose, rear or the underslung launch bay (never seen but always assumed).

Neither of those actually exists in the original design, in point of fact... though it's worth noting the original design is one that held ONLY the 144 Legioss armo-fighters in the bunkers and nothing else. The original designer's spec for that class makes it much smaller than the fanmade Robotech stats did, so it originally didn't have any of those other unspecified mecha it allegedly holds in RT. (The original sizes actually neatly solve the population problem in the RT version though, which is nice.)



Bamse wrote:
The Alphas had apparently proven a superior means of point defense for capital ships. I've always felt the 21st really did not anticipate much resistance until they were in the atmosphere as they didn't launch their Alphas in preparation for the battle but rather as a response to it.

... by "superior" I'm assuming you mean "demonstrably almost completely ineffective"? They do better than the new point-defense guns in the Shadow Chronicles version, but that's only because the point-defense guns from that aborted OVA don't even manage to hit the comparatively slow-moving Invid. The notion that they weren't prepared doesn't make sense, given that not only did they launch in response to detecting the Invid, they already had fighters traveling independently as part of the convoy for protection before they even detected the Invid.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I don't own Invasion and maybe it describes why 10th MD doesn't have Alphas yet Point K is laden with them. Why is that?

IIRC, Point K was supposed to be the emergency muster point for any surviving units from the 2nd ERF... or maybe that was just in the original version. It's been a while since last I watched the Robotech version.

The Alpha fighter is an old design by the time the New Generation is set, in contrast to the original MOSPEADA where it was so new the paint was barely dry before the 2nd ERF took them into combat. The Robotech Alpha fighter was going on 20 years old, so the ground troops at Point K could've gotten them from any number of sources.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:19 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
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Seto wrote:
Other ERFs shown have markings for multiple divisions... it would be rather odd for them to send just the one.

Would it though? It is possible the early ERF missions (like 10th, maybe even 21st, Mars Division) where assembled based on experience with the Regent, where a single Division could have been found to be more than appropriate (the UEEF attacked Optera with the SDF-3 and Tokagawa each coming in alone IIRC in Prelude).

Seto wrote:
Slight problem... the production materials don't have any art for any kind of "backpack" on the AS-C03 Condor, and in the one scene depicting the Condor-like mecha in MOSPEADA's 11th episode the artbooks note that's during the actual drop operation and there are no Ikazuchi-class ships depicted. So we can't conclude those are Condors, and even if they are we can't conclude the "backpack" model was launched from an Ikazuchi-class ship.

Keep in mind that we are discussing the RT version of things, which means:
-We KNOW that class ship is in use, or at least a family variant based on Invasion (maybe LLA), so pointing to the OSM in this case doesn't prove anything
-the backpack is used as is (or a variant of it) in the newly crafted animation for LLA IINM, or at least material associated with it
-We know that Lancer DID deploy in a CONBAT from a Garfish (in Invasion #1)
-We know the only two UEEF vessel-classes shown in Invasion are the Garfish and Ikazuchi, so the stated (but unseen for space battle in "Invasion") presence of the Condors means one or both of those ship types has to be transporting the CONDOR force

Seto wrote:
It seems a reasonable assumption, but you have a point... though the capacity of the Garfish-class's bays are much too small for the number of fighters they wanted to carry on the larger ship. Barring the non-canon remarks from the RPG about the UEEF using things like VF-1s and the highly dubious statement about the 1st ERF having had no Alphas, the obvious point is that the UEEF never used any fighters other than the Alpha on those ships and thus never had any need to convert the bays to house any other type of aircraft.

Actually in canon we know the Garfish is used to deploy Conbat Fighters from a Garfish (Invasion #1). We also know that in the 2020s the UEEF was operating an Alpha-esque nt-fighter (Ep "Outsiders" IIRC), which could stand-in for F-mode Alphas on other ships reasonably IMHO.

A single Garfish Module (assuming it is one module and no 3 or 6) has 62.5% the capacity of a QLB per official RT stats (15 Alphas for the Garfish). If we assume that each of those Garfish modules can replace a QLB* on an Ikazuchi 1:1, we only need to find a way to mount 4 additional Garfish modules in question (and get a net gain of 6 fighters**). Finding room to mount 4 such bays should be doable in several ways IMHO on an the Ikazuchi. You are also assuming that the Alphas in the Garfish Hangar can not be manipulated in some fashion to increase their capacity beyond 15, which should be possible (hard number or scenarios I don't have ready, and in any case probably belongs in its own thread).

*I used the ship size chart in AotSC on pg102, and it does look like it would be close (using the shadded ships) and with room to spare (unshaded ships). SO not an unreasonable assumption based on profile view size.

**This is true if we treat the Garfish Hangars as a single module, if they are in fact 3 or 6 and we can tailor it to be equal if one so chooses.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:19 am
  

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kinda hard to argue that the backpack doesn't exist when we have a scene from New Generation itself showing it in use.
Condors with thruster packs assaulting earth

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:58 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:00 pm
Posts: 37
Location: Sweden
Comment: Once upon a time I started writing "Insurrection". No, it's not likely to be completed... still...
I totally agree that the UEEF seems used to commiting a division in order to destroy a central Invid hive. Scott seems damn sure 2000 vts and 6000 troops are invincible. In fact, I imagine Scott more than a little surprised and/or ashamed of having been beaten by the Invid in the first episode. 36 Horizon-Ts (ish) is also a reasonsble forve to carry 5600 troops to the surface and that's what we see in Mars division. Back to the Ikazuchi I think most Ikazuchi likely carry a brigade and not a division. BUT, say yee, that's not cannon. It could be though, IF indeed there is an Ikazuchi that conforms to the specs in the infopedia. Then there can still be others. I hold on (for now) to the idea that there can be short Alpha-only Ikazuchis (no troops), Brigade length Ikazuchis (like nr 48 in Invid Invasion) and then the long suckers in the SC movie.
I also believe it necessary for the UEEF to carry large portions of those brigades on the Garfish. Might be reasonable to assume 3 to 4Garfish per Ikazuchi. That would mean three Mars-style Ikazuchis, 9 to 12 Garfish and 36 Horizon-Ts to carry a division.


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