Board index » MDC Worlds » Robotech® - The Shadow Chronicles® - Macross II®

 


Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:40 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:55 am
Posts: 73
This is something that has been begging me for the longest time. I never gave it much thought until recently wen read certain chapters in the 2ed New Generation sourcebook and the Genesis Pit sourcebook. It paints a particularly interesting picture of the Invid and their technology. It appears that much of it is very organic in nature. The description of an Invid Protoculter farm is quite telling. Also, the interior of the Invid Hives as well as its exterior also seems organic in nature. It also stated in the 2ed core rulebook that Invid technology “organic in nature and bio-mechanical in its execution and use”. This has led me to question just how organic the Invid’s mecha are.

I know from interior shots that the mecha used by the Invid much like the hive interior is very organic looking. I have also read where the armor of the mecha is referred to as a mixture of ceramics and organics leading me to believe that it’s a chitin/ceramic composite. I also read about how Invid mecha “bleed” if sufficiently damaged, not just in the main body where the nurturance pool is but elsewhere on the mecha as well.

So, is the Invid mecha some sort of synthetic lifeform crated as a war machine? I know that it’s completely inoperable without a pilot but for most the pilot is inserted into what would in any other case be the cranial cavity and then whirred in to the mecha they will be piloting. The green nurturance pool reminds me of the flued in the cranium around the brain. The fact that the pilot can never leave the mecha essentially makes the pilot the “brain” and the mecha its “body”. If this is the case, then what of the Invid Command Battloid and Overlord. I know those pilots can leave the mecha but I would assume they would be just as organic or what naught as the other Invid mecha.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:21 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5031
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
Sparticus wrote:
This is something that has been begging me for the longest time. I never gave it much thought until recently wen read certain chapters in the 2ed New Generation sourcebook and the Genesis Pit sourcebook. It paints a particularly interesting picture of the Invid and their technology. It appears that much of it is very organic in nature. The description of an Invid Protoculter farm is quite telling. Also, the interior of the Invid Hives as well as its exterior also seems organic in nature. It also stated in the 2ed core rulebook that Invid technology “organic in nature and bio-mechanical in its execution and use”.

The RPG is kind of off in left field on this particular issue... their mecha are built to an organic aesthetic, and there's some small degree of actual biotechnology in their tech base (the "brain" computers), but in the series their mecha and much of their technology is visibly inorganic and artificial like humanity's (albeit much more advanced). They don't bleed, as such, they just leak system fluids (or the cockpit's liquid suspension and pilot's vital fluids when the cockpit itself is hit).

The picture the RPG paints is arguably more interesting than the actual version in the animation...



Sparticus wrote:
So, is the Invid mecha some sort of synthetic lifeform crated as a war machine? I know that it’s completely inoperable without a pilot but for most the pilot is inserted into what would in any other case be the cranial cavity and then whirred in to the mecha they will be piloting.

In the RPG, perhaps... in the animation they were mechanical constructs, operated by a bipedal, roughly humanoid pilot who sat in a liquid-filled cockpit in the machine's thorax. The Sentinels "movie" suggested they even use relatively straightforward physical controls, as Zor Prime was able to operate a downed Invid mecha on Tirol.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:57 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 3446
Location: 25th Member of the "Cabal of 24"
Comment: Token Right Wing Fascist Totalitarian
"Never hit a man while he's down. Kick them, it's easier" - The Hunt
I have always pictured them as inorganic by nature. But it does make sense that they were more organic in form, as the Regess is able to transmute the pilot and the mecha together. As for the show, there are plenty of instances where you would see a crack of the main body where green liquid would come out. Not to mention drawings where a slice on the upper side of a Trooper's armor.

A lot of that could be explained away by the nutrient pool that the Pilot sits in. But it makes more sense that it is organic if you look at the various sets of technology and how the more advanced the race is, the more biomechanical they become. In my games, I have Invid Mecha use Protoculture Canister's as well as Human Mecha. In fact, the Robotech Masters use the same canisters and Southern Cross use similar canisters but filled with SLMH. With the idea that SLMH and Protoculture are interchangeable. The only difference is power generation duration. With the Invid being the top of the food chain on creating the most energy efficient machines.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:24 pm
  

User avatar
Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 13086
Location: Missouri
i'd say that they are basically using organic sourced materials, but their design is still mechanical in nature. so like, instead of using metal structural members, they use a dense bone like material. instead of hydraulics and electrical motors to move a limb, they use bundles of extruded muscle like polymers. instead of armor made from metals, they use a Keratinous or Shell like material.

thus while their mecha are not living things in their own right, they are basically machines made from the parts or byproducts of living things. sorta like making a car with no metals or petroleum based plastic.

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:17 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:55 am
Posts: 73
I think I may have found an answer to how organic the Invid Mecha are. it took some digging but i found this note about the Invid and there mecha. This is based on notes about the Invid from the show Genesis Climber Mospeada where they were called Inbit.

"The Invid use their bio-technology to create soldiers and servants that are living reproductions of earlier stages of Invid evolution. The soldiers are inserted into mechanical bodies that fuse with them and become their permanent bodies."

This would seem to indicate that the while the Invid themselves are organic there mecha are mechanical, just very advanced and organic in appearance. In a way I suppose that would make Invid mecha more like a cyborg, a living pilot fused with an artificial, mechanical body making it the pilot's body now.

What opinions do any of you have on this?


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:54 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6176
Location: WI
Seto wrote:
The Sentinels "movie" suggested they even use relatively straightforward physical controls, as Zor Prime was able to operate a downed Invid mecha on Tirol.

Rem, not Zor Prime. Zor Prime was grown by the Masters enroute to Earth by all indications. Rem was already present on Tirol.

Sparticus wrote:
Also, the interior of the Invid Hives as well as its exterior also seems organic in nature. It also stated in the 2ed core rulebook that Invid technology “organic in nature and bio-mechanical in its execution and use”. This has led me to question just how organic the Invid’s mecha are.

This probably indicates that the Invid technology mimics biological approaches when possible. So instead of a conventional hydraulic design (for ex.) they would use a system that mimics muscle fibers. Such an approach, could in theory be more efficient.

Sparticus wrote:
The green nurturance pool reminds me of the flued in the cranium around the brain. The fact that the pilot can never leave the mecha essentially makes the pilot the “brain” and the mecha its “body”.

One way to take fact the pilot can not leave the mecha (at least until human form or Royal status, maybe even "scientist" status) is that they are naturally aquatic and are not capable of functioning in air.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:29 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 43196
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
But do they mulch well?

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:16 pm
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 15092
Location: Eastvale, calif
if the question was "should there be green blood/goo everywhere/leaking out after destroying a invid mecha, without it actually blowing up?" yes.

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own opinions or house rules, they need to be listed/declareds as your own opinions or house rules.


My Artwork


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:38 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am
Posts: 1215
it may not be canon but I always took it as the invid tech base relied on technoorganic principles. what this effectively means is that most of their tech is essentially biological in orgin, except where mechanical systems are absolutely required.

the evolution of the pilots and mecha could be used as an argument that this is mostly the case as well. depending on how you want to look at it you can make arguments either way, but...

as an example the invid mecha bodies use the protoculture fuel like the earth, and robotech masters do, but rather than "burning" it through some variation on conventional engines like oil, the Invid mecha consume it more in a more biological sense. they use "muscle fibers", for most movement rather than hydraulics and similar etc. their mecha has a "circulatory" system that moves the protoculture fuel and other byproducts to the "organs" that need it in the mechabodies etc.
one thing to remember is that most mechanical materials can be duplicated, or equivalents made through biological processes. some are better some are worse but... so one argument is they use a lot of engineered organisms and systems, so that their units are alive in a sense.

to use an equivalent look at things like spider silk, vs artificial fiber equivalents, the spider silk by volume (strand vs wire) the spider silk is stronger than steel.

of course if you want to argue the other way, IE that the invid use mainly mechanical systems, they just have so much of a biological "mindset or fetish" that they build and use mechanical systems that resemble biological ones that works as well.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:11 pm
  

User avatar
Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 13086
Location: Missouri
I could see the 'muscles' and mind reading cockpit of the masters bioroids as an attempt to duplicate the invids organic mecha systems in a non-organic form. Certainly it would help explain the difference between the bioroid tech and the more obviously mechanical zentraedi hardware.

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:37 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:20 pm
Posts: 4916
Location: Right behind you.
Comment: Don't waste your time gloating over a wounded enemy. Pull the damn trigger.
Sparticus wrote:
"The Invid use their bio-technology to create soldiers and servants that are living reproductions of earlier stages of Invid evolution. The soldiers are inserted into mechanical bodies that fuse with them and become their permanent bodies."

This would seem to indicate that the while the Invid themselves are organic there mecha are mechanical, just very advanced and organic in appearance. In a way I suppose that would make Invid mecha more like a cyborg, a living pilot fused with an artificial, mechanical body making it the pilot's body now.

What opinions do any of you have on this?

My opinion? I'm terrified of Mechanoids. Please take this heresy away from me. :P

_________________
Mark Hall wrote:
Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

Talk from the Edge: Operation Dead Lift, Operation Reload, Operation Human Devil, Operation Handshake, Operation Windfall 1, Operation Windfall 2, Operation Sniper Wolf, Operation Natural 20


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:58 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:55 am
Posts: 73
Well the Genesis Pit sourcebook has at lest for the RPG answered the question of how organic the Invid mecha are. On page 53 the book specifically states that the mecha used by the Invid was created by infusing the DNA of a monsters creature known as the Gura with bio-mechanical elements to and I quote here "give birth to the living Invid mecha known today".

It would appear that the Invid mecha is indeed very much an organic thing. Now lets talk about the implications of this and what bio-mechanical elements relay means here.

How do the Invid use PC canisters?

How would a bio-mechanical energy blaster of thrusters function?

How dose the bio-mechanical eye of the Invid mecha function and how close is it to a real eye?


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:14 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 43196
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
Sparticus wrote:

How do the Invid use PC canisters?

How would a bio-mechanical energy blaster of thrusters function?

How dose the bio-mechanical eye of the Invid mecha function and how close is it to a real eye?



a) They crush them against their foreheads and guzzle down the contents.
No, actually that's one of the great puzzles that the Invid just happen to seem to approve of the Humans packaging Protoculture in a convenient canister that the invading/liberating human forces can use to power their heavy weaponry. The short answer is probably the canister-packing gear was already in existence and the Invid stupidly allowed the humans to keep using the stuff out of convenience's sake without realizing the logistical backstab it allowed. Invid mecha don't actually use canisters; they tap them like beer kegs, drain the contents, and use the stuff straight.

b) They produce gas...Invid flatulence propels them.
Seriously, though, I imagine the energy from the protoculture is used to power an organic exotic-chemical heating element, like a bombardier beetle's chemical spray, only much more contained, and much more potent...possibly generating high-temperature plasma in a combustion chamber lined with secreted ceramic-like refractory material.

c) The 'organic' production process probably exudes silica and other materials in the glass- and ceramic-like lens and casing, but behind it all are organic nerves and photoreceptors, only much tougher than any terrestrial equivalents. The tough outer stuff doesn't warp or degenerate like, say, our own eyes(no cataracts for instance), but the inner living elements need to be regularly fed/renewed/lubricated with the nutrient fluids to remain viable over time.

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:21 pm
  

Knight

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:13 pm
Posts: 4808
Location: Vernon, ON. Canada
Just never light a match in an Invid hanger.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:58 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 43196
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
SRoss wrote:
Just never light a match in an Invid hanger.

Indeed. They might catalyze various gases for propulsion, and seepage in the bays might lead to some pockets of explosive fumes. While the OS animation shows the Mollusck carriers just ZOOMING up on their anti-gravs, the Shadow Chronicles shows the carriers launching with a definite contrail behind them, so they also might be using some sort of hot plasma jet system.

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:26 am
  

User avatar
Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 13086
Location: Missouri
it could also be they use a partially antigrav method.. ani-grav/reactionless drive (really, there isn't much difference) for most of the propulsive effect, with thruster systems for boost and to help vent excess heat.

we do see the invid 'floating' in mid air without thrusters going in some episodes.. often enough that we can't just chalk it up to animation error.

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:49 am
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 43196
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
glitterboy2098 wrote:
it could also be they use a partially antigrav method.. ani-grav/reactionless drive (really, there isn't much difference) for most of the propulsive effect, with thruster systems for boost and to help vent excess heat.

we do see the invid 'floating' in mid air without thrusters going in some episodes.. often enough that we can't just chalk it up to animation error.


Comedic Explanation: They're blimping on stomach gases.
Kool Anime PsuedoScience Explanation: It's a form of telekinetic levitation drive

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:19 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5031
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
taalismn wrote:
Comedic Explanation: They're blimping on stomach gases.
Kool Anime PsuedoScience Explanation: It's a form of telekinetic levitation drive

Nah, they're using HHGG-style flight... they get so high on protoculture that they've mastered the art of throwing themselves at the ground and missing.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:47 am
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:11 am
Posts: 57
It's organic enough that the mecha, along with its invid pilot, could mutate into a new sub species outright. This is shown in the Genesis Pits Sourcebook though I can't say if the book is canon to the series as a whole.


          Top  
 
 
Post new topic Reply to topic



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group