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 Post subject: Who are the pirates?
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:45 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:04 am
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We know that Leonard thinks that the robotech masters might be pirates at first in Southern Cross.

We know that they don't have anything tyhat even looks like Zentraedi or Human tech.

These two facts give us the possibility that A. pirates are common enough that it's a reasonable suspicion.
B. Many or most of these groups do not use human or zentraedi technology.

So, where are these pirates coming from? The ASC had to have had some contact with them, otherwise why would Leonard think that they were even a possibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Who are the pirates?
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:01 am
  

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actually that second point doesn't follow, since the the remarks in that scene indicate that everyone aside from leonard are doubting the space pirate explanation because the ship isn't a known design. they even say that space pirates can't build mecha.

which suggests that the pirates are normally using human or zentreadi gear, probably salvaged.

it is likely that the first pirates were zentreadi renegades that still had a (mostly) functional ship, raiding the outposts, colonies, and convoys of the UEG in the solar system and surrounding systems. it is probable that some of these eventually ended up with humans in the crews (via captives, alliances with anti-UEG groups, defectors, etc). it is also possible you have some pure human groups that are anti-UEG enough that they grabbed a ship from the wreckage around earth and went a pirating.

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 Post subject: Re: Who are the pirates?
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:09 am
  

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Knight

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Quote:
We know that Leonard thinks that the robotech masters might be pirates at first in Southern Cross.

Actually no, Leonard doesn't think they are Space Pirates. Space Pirate exchange occurs in "Half-Moon", and Leonard is absent on screen between the episodes "Dana's Story" and "Danger Zone".

What Leonard thinks the Masters are comes from a later episode where he equates them to a strain of Micronized Zentreadi. "Its obvious what's happened here these aliens or at least their clones are nothing less than a barbaric strain of micronized Zentraedi who where scattered throughout the universe only now they have returned to reak havoc on the inhabitants of this planet "-Leonard episode "Metal Fire".

The exchange in "Half-Moon" goes like this (as gb2098 points out, though misses that Leonard wasn't part of it):
Rochelle (?): "Could they be space pirates looking for salvage"
Emerson: No that can't be the answer no human beings have the knowledge to create Robotech spaceships their most likely in the service of the Robotech Masters

Who ever these pirates are they appear to be we know:
-there are human "space pirates", I would not rule out aliens also being possible, but these aliens aren't going to be mistaken for humans (so we can probably rule out micronized Zentreadi)
-not a single entity (IMHO given the generic title)
-humans lack the knowledge to create robotech ships (they don't rule out mecha at this point), which means they are have to be in the service of the Robotech Masters. How other aliens might be classified is unknown since alien space pirates aren't on the table given the visuals of the pilot being reported
-at this point in the story the genetics of the pilots are unknown (that occurs in "Danger Zone"), but they do know the pilots look human from Dana


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 Post subject: Re: Who are the pirates?
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:19 pm
  

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the problem with the "no humans can build spaceships" line is that humanity actually can, as seen in the ASC and UEEF fleets.

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 Post subject: Re: Who are the pirates?
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:35 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
the problem with the "no humans can build spaceships" line is that humanity actually can, as seen in the ASC and UEEF fleets.



I'll go out on a limb and go with ' no humans can't build major vessels without us knowing about it'....Presumably viable derelicts that could be renovated on Earth are watched like hawks(if they haven't already been picked clean), and the UEG keeps a watch-list of nations and facilities with the capability of building large spacecraft(even from salvage). That would be a major part of the GMP and Fleet, watching and regulating what can leave Earth, and keeping tabs on who has what going in the solar system.

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 Post subject: Re: Who are the pirates?
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:55 pm
  

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Knight

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It isn't just space ships in the generic sense gb2098, but Robotech spaceships. And it may not just be generic robotech spaceships, but specific type(s) of Robotech Spaceships that Emerson could be referencing. So I don't have a problem with it per since Earth obviously has space ships, and even Robotech spaceships. The question is if Earth/humanity has the capacity to create a Robotech Spaceship(s) like the Masters employ in secret?

If the UEDF/UEEF controls the entire salvaged supply of Robotech spaceship parts that humanity needs, and humans show up in robotech spaceships there are only a few options to explain it:
A. a group of Terran Humans have stolen a large stockpile of the salvaged inventory without anyone noticing and built a fleet somewhere again unnoticed. (this seems highly unlikely)
B. a group of Terran Humans found a depot in space and are using it for their own ends (possible, we know the UEEF and UEDF have factions of differing view points). The main sticking point I think is how did all these humans disappear to staff those ships, something like that isn't likely to go unnoticed (unless they resorted to cloning via the depot)
C. the humans are working for the Robotech Masters. Weather these humans are terran (recent) or some Terran ancients abducted in the remote past and helped form the basis of the Zentreadi would be any ones guess in the UEG/UEDF. At this point Earth isn't shown to know about any other Robotech Faction (like the Disciples of Zor or the Invid, though dialogue suggests mutant strains of Zentreadi might be out there) other than the Zentreadi (not them obviously, since Emerson said they we're set to handle the Zents) or their creators the Robotech Masters.

It is also worth remembering that UEDF/UEEF ships are known (in outside 85ep media) to use SALVAGED parts, so that might not be considered to create robotech spaceships on the same level the "aliens" at this point display.


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 Post subject: Re: Who are the pirates?
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:05 am
  

Hero

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Comment: Even the great thinkers and writers in history messed up sometimes.
Could be ASC ,Sentinel or even UEDF/UEF deserters. Hey there are people who get in differenr militaries and go A.W.O.L

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 Post subject: Re: Who are the pirates?
Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:01 am
  

A few candidates for space pirates:

a) Human renegades & Zentraedi Malcontents rogues
Most probably remnants of Anti-Unification forces post First Robotech War. Probably allied with some rogue Zentraedi stranded in Sol system but still hostile to UEDF. My take, would be EBSIS (from 1st Ed RT RPG) spec-force / military consultants or hired PMCs that recruited rogue Zentraedi (sponsored by EBSIS) to sabotage Robotech installations or some small scale raids against protoculture supply run through various UEG approved routes in Sol-system.

Reference Material:
- 1st & 2nd Ed. Robotech RPG

b) Children of Zor
Most probably remnants of Disciples of Zor. Designated terrorist / rebel insurgents by Robotech Master's Empire. Its activities included piracy on Robotech mecha / equipment, protoculture supplies and most importantly any technology sourced from Zor's invention as to cripple the Masters in its sporadic guerilla warfare against Masters' forces. Probably profiteering from pirating Masters' allied worlds or abandoned Zentraedi installations following the chaos and disturbances that plagued the entire Robotech Empire as Invid crusade cut a swath through the undefended Empire post Zentraedi Holocaust and Masters' forces departure in search of Earth. Its pirating activities included several jaunts to Sol-system where Children of Zor learn the Zentraedi fates, and attempts to wrest some key Zor's technologies developed by UEDF in Sol-system (refer Robotech Academy). Later on, their pirating activities extended in deep space areas under UEEF mission and colonisation efforts. My take, the Children of Zor is a splinter faction of the defunct Disciples of Zor, and amongst its most potent military units is the Dezalg forces (taken from Robotech: Untold Story and adapted from Megazone 23 Part 1 & 2).

Reference Material:
- Robotech Academy: http://robotech.wikia.com/wiki/Robotech:_Academy
- Children of Zor: http://robotech.wikia.com/wiki/Children_of_Zor
- Disciples of Zor: http://robotechvisions.wikia.com/wiki/Disciples_of_Zor
- Robotech Untold Story / Megazone 23: http://www.robotech.patlabor.info/index.htm

c) Zentraedi Remnants
Factions of Zentraedi forces stranded on several systems following Dolza's and Imperial Grand Fleet destruction in Sol-System. Had to resort to piracy after chronic protoculture depletion, communication breakdown with the now incommunicado Masters and after cannibalized parts of ships and mechas for survival. Over time, Zentraedi warlords and their meager flotillas became the nucleeus of several pirate lords and its respective pirate outfits preying on spacelanes and various colony worlds in deep space for protoculture and other supplies for their continued survival.

Reference Material:
- 1st & 2nd Ed. Robotech RPG
- Imperial Zentraedi Forces: http://robotech.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial ... edi_Forces
- Imperial Grand Fleet: http://robotech.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Grand_Fleet

d) Robotech Masters Remnants
Factions of Robotech Masters garrison forces after Masters' departure to Earth. Would also included clone survivors / refugees during the Invid crusade against the Robotech Empire left undefended after Zentraedi Holocaust and Master's exodus. Turned to pirating for survival.

Reference Material:
- 1st & 2nd Ed. Robotech RPG

e) Sentinel Aliens and other aliens
The myriad loose coalition of aliens within Local Group clusters whose homeworlds invaded by Invid Regent. These space militias and freedom fighters would turn to pirating Regent's protoculture supply routes and raids against Regent's strategic outposts. Apart from Sentinels, any other aliens whose culture is mainly piarcy. See Horune Pirates from RIFTS for blatant example.

Reference Material:
- 1st & 2nd Ed. Robotech RPG
- Rifts RPG (Entry on Horune)

f) UEEF Deserters / Tyroloid or Sentinels outlaws
Made up of the dregs in Humanity colonists or Tyrolian society or Sentinel aliens. Scums of the universe as they run the underworld criminal activities from slave trade, illicit illegal trades up to piracy. A few ex UEEF undesirables like the ex-servicemen of TR Edwards' Ghost Squadron who escaped justice by the end of the traitorous TR Edwards little rebellion against UEEF.

Reference Material:
- Robotech II Sentinels novels & comics (read up on Edwards' faction, the Ghost Squadron)
- Robotech: Prelude to The Shadow Chronicles (Edwards' faction)


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 Post subject: Re: Who are the pirates?
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:10 am
  

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Champion

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mech798 wrote:
We know that Leonard thinks that the robotech masters might be pirates at first in Southern Cross.


If you mean Claude Leon (not Supreme Commander Leonard) in the ORIGINAL SDC: Southern Cross, he says that the space pirates were likely those that took part in the mass colonization from Earth. He did think the Zor Lords were space pirates, at least early in the series.


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 Post subject: Re: Who are the pirates?
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:58 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
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Protoculture wrote:
A few candidates for space pirates:
a) Human renegades & Zentraedi Malcontents rogues
...
b) Children of Zor
...
c) Zentraedi Remnants
...
d) Robotech Masters Remnants
...
e) Sentinel Aliens and other aliens
...
f) UEEF Deserters / Tyroloid or Sentinels outlaws
...

A few more options and they might fall under existing options, but...

g. Invid. Some have suggested in the past the "space pirates" might be Invid (or an undisclosed faction). Though for this to be the case we'd have to assume the race's name was unknown and the Zentreadi could not identify them (with their rapid evolution pace it is possible being out of the loop for 10years or more...). Personally I don't think this is the case though.

Separate Invid Factions are known to exist in various material that isn't canon: Tesla in Sentinels, 2E RPG's Gura-Invid, and maybe even the Haydonites (w/o more background story, this is a fan theory IINM).

h. Zentreadi Connection. These aren't technically Zentreadi, though maybe evolutionary related. Zentreadi history that is scattered in TMS episodes might also offer options, though currently individuals have to determine how much of that is true and how much is fabricated history. You have the original corruptors that nearly destroyed the Zentreadi (per Exedore). You also could have evolutionary offshoots since the Zentreadi (per Gloval) are described as evolving into their current form. Dolza and Leonard both make statements that could point toward micronized offshoots being present.


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 Post subject: Re: Who are the pirates?
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:39 pm
  

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Knight

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I would make the pirates all kinds of different factions, honestly. That's kind of what pirates were, unless they were sanctioned by a government, which would then give one pirate group a unified identity (at least on paper).

Have pirates be: (much like the suggestions above)

Rogue Zentradi hunting for resources.
Members of the old Tirolian merchant empire with their own ships but never got on board with the Masters themselves (call them children of Zor if you want, but I'm talking about the self-serving deviants you find in every society)
Humans who have stolen robotech ships, or built their own non-robotech ships.
Completely other (karbarrans, spherians, cat people high on hin, whatever...they had a lust for space adventure and stole a ride like any good pirate!)

Any and all of these could be pirate types, and I think it's possible to include them all, at least in your games, even if there's no real place for them in canon.

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 Post subject: Re: Who are the pirates?
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:58 am
  

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Adventurer

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Looks like Ghost Fleet will answer this question when released.

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 Post subject: Re: Who are the pirates?
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:03 am
  

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Champion

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tobefrnk wrote:
Looks like Ghost Fleet will answer this question when released.


Well, if it is going to make any sense at all, the space pirates should be from the start of mass colonization that begins in the post-1st Robotech War period. Certainly it wasn't just the UEG sponsoring colonization, but AUL and independent factions as well. Plus, given the fact that there exists civilian bases on the Moon (ALuCE-1 comes to mind), there likely is a heavy civilian presence in space in and around not just the solar system but outside it as well. There would be plenty of wreckage in orbit to salvage to get such operations underway.


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