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Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:47 pm
  

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Knight

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Sambot wrote:
Scott, Marlene, Lancer, Lunk, others are canon characters. They always have been. Their ages put them as children on the Pioneer Mission.

Canon characters yes, but none of them say they grew up on the Pioneer Mission. Only that they have been born out in space on a Robotech Ship. You are inferring that the Robotech ship(s) has to be part of the Pioneer Mission, which might not be the case (ASC warships are Robotech ships).

Sentinels OVA may not even be considered part of the current canon either FYI IIRC. That doesn't stop HG from trying to make money off it (like they did with the reprints on the Novel Omni-buses). So can you please stop using non-canon sources here, because for all practical purposes they are an Alternate Universe to the canon universe and do nothing but complicate the issue when you try to shoe-horn them in together.

Sambot wrote:
I believe you. It makes no sense but I believe you. I don't like it much either but that's the term that gets used a lot.

Gloval's plan may be risky, but there is a certain degree of logic behind it.

Sambot wrote:
The name "Colony Bay" may be new. I never said it wasn't. However, civilians being included in the Pioneer Mission are not. One may argue that they grew up in the Sol System except that if ships were traveling back and forth why wasn't the ASC reinforced by those ships? Why did Carpenter the only one sent from who know's where when there were lots of UEEF ships right there in the system? If the ships aren't there all those kids must have traveled with the Pioneer Mission.

The UEEF did reinforce the ASC in several waves, which could indicate the UEEF fleet itself wasn't in an easy position to redeploy to Earth. The "Why" though isn't clarified in the show during Carpenter's meeting with Leonard. However, statements made in NG (Wolfe, Garfish crew) and later in TRM do suggest follow up groups occurred, though no explanation as to what is prevented the UEEF from doing more than what appears to be token offerings at those times. That is the extent of current canon AFAIK (yes the Novels have the 5year fold, but they aren't part of the current canon).

Sambot wrote:
Where did the 2nd Tokugawa come from? I don't remember it.

The old guys in the Garfish could have come back with Wolf. I don' tknow why he had to come back in a single ship. Maybe a small task force?

You have to pay attention to the visuals as the Tokugawa appears in a few places, even on Earth IIRC, in the background (uRRG lists Ep47 and Ep60 as the main episodes with the ship-class appearing, though "minor" appearances might also exist given their Logan "main episodes" isn't a complete listing).

Seto wrote:
Let's not get into that... becuase we both remember HG tossing 1E into the "not real Robotech" pile back in '06, for precisely the reason that they were making up their own stories and plot details because they had little-to-nothing to work from.

I agree, but you did say "every version" which would include the versions HG tossed out. :)

Seto wrote:
Granted, it does mention a fleet... but that doesn't mean they were launched at the same time. The very next entry in that timeline mentions only the SDF-3 launching.

Correct, but we know the SDF-3 wasn't the only ship in the Pioneer Mission from the 2015 entry. We even know from the show that the Pioneer Mission wasn't one ship (Carpenter) and from the time line that ships are out there before the SDF-3 launches. IIRC at one time the RT.com timeline had it that the SDF-3 did join up with a fleet (the wayback machine doesn't do the timeline section of the site at all for me, mecha entries mostly fine)

Seto wrote:
Sambot wrote:
So who was the Doctors that Emerson have the captured Bioroid taken too?
ShadowLogan, you wanna field this one? It's been a dog's age since I watched the Masters Saga instead of Southern Cross.

Which captured Bioroid are you guys talking about (TRM can be a bit confusing because Bioroid at times seems to refer to both the pilot/operator AND the mecha in dialogue):
-"Danger Zone" and its analysis of a mostly intact blue bioroid by Miles Cochran and Samson Becket that gave Emerson a report later in the episode
-"The Trap"/"Metal Fire"'s green bioroid with the pilot autopsy by Doctor Byron, Emerson received an in person briefing on the mecha (IINM by Cochran and Becket) and then went to a breifing with Dana on the pilot (Dana gets tossed out). In "The Trap" Bowie makes it out to be a gift for Emerson.
-"Outsiders" and Zor Prime where Leonard and Emerson have a dispute on who should be doing the research Cochran or a military scientist, but I don't recall Becket being present (at least he isn't mentioned in dialogue IIRC).

The exchange in Outsiders though...
Leonard: Yes… well then I'm taking the prisoner out of your hands General he'll be analysed by a military scientist who will take over from here
Emerson: We mustn't let this prisoner be destroyed Cmdr not like that last one let him stay where he is Professor Cochran knows what he's doing
Leonard: hmp I'm sure our people could do just as well it seems to me that your much more concerned with the prisoner's welfare but so be it if your determined to continue the examination at Dr. Cochran's I'm prepared to allow it just keep in mind if this prisoner escapes your responsible

This would seem to imply that Cochran (sp? and maybe Becket) is not considered a military scientist during the TRM arc (in 2029-30) per Leonard. That doesn't mean he couldn't become military by the time of TSC/Prelude (2042-4) as we are talking about a 14-5year gap in the current continuity.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:53 pm
  

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Knight

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Sambot wrote:
Maybe for newer films. I know they didn't used to be so strict about language when I was a kid. I know I've seen movies with swear words as a kid and then again when older that were edited for TV.

They've been doing it for a long time now... though "acceptable" language levels vary depending on what time a film that's been edited for TV will be airing.



Sambot wrote:
If they'd stayed in the Sol System those old enough would have ended up fighting the Robotech Masters. And after they wouldn't have had enough ships to get to Tirol.

You're still stuck on this view that there's only the Sol system and Tirol... and that's just not accurate, but most of the New Generation cast would've been too young for combat when the Masters came calling.



Sambot wrote:
You said they did and there doesn't seem to be regular traffic back and forth. Just Wolf's ship. If there was regular traffic the Earth would have been much more heavily defended. And didn't you say that all the installations were no civilian colonies only military bases?

You're trying to turn a time period-specific statement into a general one.

For the first portion of the UEEF's operations in the Sentinels worlds there was no regular traffic between Earth and the UEEF. That was not an indefinite state of affairs. We know that Wolfe's unit returned and departed from a UEEF port (implied to be Mars Base) to support UEDF forces on Earth, we know the Old Timers unit was sent back to fight the Robotech Masters, and we know the UEEF attempted to evacuate what it could from Earth before the Invid had secured the planet. After that, the UEEF seems to have taken a more personal interest in the militarized colonies on Luna, and probably those further out in the solar system as well.

No, I did not say there were no civilian colonies in the Sol system... I said the colonies were militarized during and after the 2nd Robotech War. Now they are effectively military bases and staging areas, even though the military still refers to them as colonies on occasion.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:53 pm
  

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Rifts® Trivia Master

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Sambot wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
actually we do have ships from "deep space" arriving to help the ASC durign the 2nd war, with a group that includes a 2nd Tokugawa class so it likely included UEEF forces.

and we the old guys in the Garfish seen in new gen said they were sent to earth in that ship to fight the robotech masters. Col. Wolfe was sent to earth around that time too, going by scott's flashback. the new gen style ships must have been uncommon and assumed ot be 'offscreen' though.

however you are right that we don't have any evidence for the kind of back and forth traffic that them all staying in earth space would require. the ASC's only link to the UEEF/Pioneer mission was via space station liberty (which we now know to be a factory sat with the UEEF), and the ASC was unaware of what the pioneer mission had going on, given that leonard's response to carpenter bearing the message that the pioneer mission was too busy to help earth was shock and disbelief. had the ASC been in contact with the UEEF via regular traffic and large UEEF facilities in the solar system, they'd have known why the UEEF couldn't help and not been expecting it in the first place. (that the UEEF managed to send any help at all is frankly impressive)


Where did the 2nd Tokugawa come from? I don't remember it.

The old guys in the Garfish could have come back with Wolf. I don' tknow why he had to come back in a single ship. Maybe a small task force?

Thanks, I didn't think there were or there should be more mixing of mecha and personnel. Not to mention knowledge of the coming Invid and how to fight them. Everything points to there not being any ships after the SDF-3 launches.


in episode 54 we're told that reinforcements arrived from "deep space", including several 'Battle class' ships (the ASC's smaller cruisers) and some sort of shuttle or frigate we don;t have official info on. this group has been assumed by many to be UEEF troops, though it could have been ASC forces on maneuvers just as easily. the UEEF assumption though is largely due to the fact that the 'deep space' group came to ALUCE, and in episode 60 we have a shot of the ALUCE fleet, including a Tokugawa in the background. it stands out some due to the tan color scheme.

as far the old guys and wolfe go. your probably right that they were likely with Wolfe's group. though i'd suspect that it was more than just the one ship. since we're told the old guys were sent to help fight the masters, we have to assume they arrived at the latest 2031, just prior to the invid arrival. enough time to catch the tail end of the fighting vs the masters.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:35 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
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Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
Sambot wrote:
I believe you. It makes no sense but I believe you. I don't like it much either but that's the term that gets used a lot.

Gloval's plan may be risky, but there is a certain degree of logic behind it.

Assuming the SDF-2 was, as depicted in Comico's version laid out by Carl Macek, a second Macross-class ship inspired by the unused art for the SDF-2 from the original Macross series finale, it should've been quite capable of delivering a preemptive fight-ending "earth shattering kaboom" via the main gun, much like the SDF-3 did to the headquarters of Edwards' forces on Optera.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
Let's not get into that... becuase we both remember HG tossing 1E into the "not real Robotech" pile back in '06, for precisely the reason that they were making up their own stories and plot details because they had little-to-nothing to work from.

I agree, but you did say "every version" which would include the versions HG tossed out. :)

All right, you got me there... :wink:



ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
Granted, it does mention a fleet... but that doesn't mean they were launched at the same time. The very next entry in that timeline mentions only the SDF-3 launching.

Correct, but we know the SDF-3 wasn't the only ship in the Pioneer Mission from the 2015 entry. We even know from the show that the Pioneer Mission wasn't one ship (Carpenter) and from the time line that ships are out there before the SDF-3 launches. IIRC at one time the RT.com timeline had it that the SDF-3 did join up with a fleet (the wayback machine doesn't do the timeline section of the site at all for me, mecha entries mostly fine)

Well, sort of... it doesn't attribute the fleet to the Pioneer Mission, but rather to the Robotech Expeditionary Force in general. The Wayback machine only does the timeline section correctly if you view the saga-level timeline link, it won't work if you use the dropdown menus from the original site. I do recall the same entry, though I can't recall what year it was, though...

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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:43 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Scott's had an age as far back as at least 1990

Scott's presumably had an age all his life... but it was never officially established until 2001.


Wasn't Scott's age mentioned in the novel which was official at the time?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Didn't Bowie complain about Scott getting to go? And if war is too dangerous for kids why did they take Dana when they captured the factory satellite? They could have just shown a video of her birth. And there wasn't a war when they left.

Scott doesn't appear in Sentinels, so no.

As to why Komilia/Dana was taken along on the factory satellite op... she was an infant still, and they couldn't afford to leave one of the military's best pilots at home, and in both versions they planned to use the kid to scare the crap out of the Zentradi (which worked a treat).


I didn't say that he appeared. I asked if Bowie complained about his going.

So it's okay to bring the kids of the best pilots along on military missions? How about the spouses? Someone's got to take care of the kids while Mom or Dad are out fighting. And if a wiggling baby is scary, show a video of the birthing process.


Sambot wrote:
SDF-3 or escort ship or factory satellite.

That still wouldn't necessarily put them near the front lines of they were on a factory satellite or one of the ships that were detailed to protect same. Liberty station was WAAAAAY behind the lines until the Masters showed up.

But they still would have been out there.


Sambot wrote:
So how did all those kids get from deep space to the Sol System for them to grow up and then go back to join the military? If there's no ships to ferry people back and forth to Earth how did all those people get to the Sol system to grow up and then to Tirol to join the military? And if there were ships why no contact with the Pioneer Mission in so long? If there where ships to take those kids to Tirol why not send the 15th ATAC too?

Robotech uses the term "deep space" much more liberally than it should... often including portions of the outer solar system in "deep space", like they did with the SDF-1 returning from Pluto's orbit.

Regardless of how it's used, it seems as if you're saying the kids were shipped to the Sol System when they were born and then shipped back in time for basic training. Yet there's no ships to do any of that.


Quote:
As to why they didn't send Minmei back later, once transport between the UEEF and the Sol system was reestablished is anyone's guess... at that point you'd have to ask the writers. The Waltrips seemingly kept her around for fanservice (after changing her design to give her the Most Common Superpower), and had her pining after Rick despite him being a happily married man. So... I guess what I'm saying is they kept her around for drama, being the SDF-3's official homewrecker.

Why the UEDF didn't know the Masters were coming and what their ships looked like... the UEEF never saw Masters ships when they arrived, so they wouldn't know either, and communications were not exactly regular between the two initially.


Probably.

I would think that they'd get that information from Cabell.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
How much does it cost to kill the sound for that second or so?

Studio time is expensive... which is one of the reasons shows like Robotech aren't made anymore. It costs too much to do all that rewriting and re-recording. Reportedly, to save on studio time, Robotech was originally done in marathon sessions with actors sleeping in the studio hallways and eating at the pub across the street.

Killing the sound for a second wouldn't be too difficult... but if you intend to do it in the middle of a conversation and still have everything flow naturally, that means video and audio editing, hours of work to get everything synced up to the new timecodes again, amounting to several thousand dollars of added cost to delete a single sentence. (Plus let's not even get into how mad Robotech fans get when HG changes something...)


I don't know about people sleeping in hallways but dubbing of shows still happens. Shows much larger than Robotech. And in this digital age several thousand seems steep. Maybe it is the going price but it seems steep to do something one can do with home editing software.


Sambot wrote:
And yet they still had power to order arrests and trials.

In Prelude, it's the military brass ordering the arrests and trials...

Which would be a retcon.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You were saying the UEEF went to Tirol to start a war with the Masters. They also went by themselves. Wouldn't they want to get the first shot in? Wouldn't that be a reason to by in by themselves disguised as a Zentraedi ship?

The original plan voiced in the series was to go to Tirol for a preemptive strike... not to start a war, but to finish them before they could fight back. That was changed when Sentinels was made, and the writers presented it as being a heavily armed diplomatic mission theoretically intending to open peace talks but fully prepared to kick teeth in if things went south.


Isn't getting the fist shot in and hoping it takes out the enemy's ability to fire back a "preemptive strike"?

Quote:
Yep... that's what they say in the Macross Saga. Remember, the Robotech series was written while the show was being produced. This stuff was not premeditated in any long-term way, which is why so many dialog errors exist in the first place. You had multiple rewriters working on multiple episodes at the same time, but with such tight time tables that they didn't have time to cross-check each other's work for accuracy or consistency. They were, in the most literal sense, making it up as they went and having to change things down the road once they decided to develop their own material.


Lost me there. The shows were already produced. They just needed to take the translations of different stories and somehow make them into one and edit the scripts.

Sambot wrote:
Doesn't Exedore tell them not to underestimate the Robotech Masters though?

If we were to count every time a warning is ignored in a Robotech story, we'd be here all week.

True. But Lisa doesn't strike me as one to ignore a warning from Exedore.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sambot wrote:
If there were ships going back and forth, why not put Minmei on one of them?

Once traffic between Earth and the UEEF resumed, you'd have to ask the writer... it may have had something to do with the way they'd made her a goodwill ambassador in the meantime.

You keep asking the same questions over and over again, the answers will no change in repetition.


When did it resume? A couple ships decades apart isn't a regular trade route.

Yet you keep saying over and over that canon says something that canon says otherwise.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And the Earth didn't have any ships after the 2nd Robotech War to get to Tirol so how did the kids get there to make up the 10th and 21st divisions? And if there were enough ships to go get them why didn't they go and defend Earth?

From elsewhere, presumably... there were evacuations carried out in the wake of the 2nd Robotech War where people emigrated to the moon or to Mars. Of course, the soldiers of the 10th or 21st Mars Divisions may not have been born or raised anywhere near Tirol. "Deep space" covers a LOT of territory... more than it should, considering the loose way Robotech uses the term.


Except there weren't any available ships. The UEEF was busy fighting the Regent and the ASC lost their ships fighting the Masters. So where did these ships come from? Sure Wolfe had a few ships on his return to Earth which would take by clones and other humans. But that's still not a regular ferry service. And it's certainly not enough for divisions of young adults ready for boot camp. And if those kids came from places other than the Sol System, wouldn't that mean that there were more colonies as well as ships carrying civilians? Something you insist canon says otherwise?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
They probably were but we don't know for sure do we? Whatever they were he was still with them.

We don't know if anyone in that scene is related to him, or if he was living with any kind of family.


Who Scott went with depends on which canon you give credit too.

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
If they are colonies why couldn't there be more?

Inside the Sol system?

They don't seem to have established any new settlements due to all manpower and materiel being devoted to the war effort(s).

Outside the Sol system?

Pretty much the same as the above... what they had for people was soldiers and their children, and with an attrition rate so dire they lowered the recruitment age they couldn't afford to take large numbers of soldiers off the front line permanently to establish self-sufficient settlements. The military brass deemed colonization efforts too dangerous to pursue and scrubbed the program, since they didn't have the resources to protect the colony ships or a potential colony, and the ships themselves were apparently never finished. Without a civilian population to draw on, success was just not in the cards.


If there weren't any ships to support colony efforts where did the ships come from to resume regular traffic to Earth? And if there's regular traffic why not have more colonies? And where did all these kids come from?


Sambot wrote:
It's now three years in the new RPG.

The timeline in the core book doesn't put a date to it... where are you getting that?

The Marine Sourcebook.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:07 am
  

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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 105
ShadowLogan wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Scott, Marlene, Lancer, Lunk, others are canon characters. They always have been. Their ages put them as children on the Pioneer Mission.

Canon characters yes, but none of them say they grew up on the Pioneer Mission. Only that they have been born out in space on a Robotech Ship. You are inferring that the Robotech ship(s) has to be part of the Pioneer Mission, which might not be the case (ASC warships are Robotech ships).

Sentinels OVA may not even be considered part of the current canon either FYI IIRC. That doesn't stop HG from trying to make money off it (like they did with the reprints on the Novel Omni-buses). So can you please stop using non-canon sources here, because for all practical purposes they are an Alternate Universe to the canon universe and do nothing but complicate the issue when you try to shoe-horn them in together.


When did the ASC have regular meeting wish UEEF ships to exchange passengers so those kids could go to a UEEF boot camp instead of a ASC one? And if the Robotech Ship didn't belong to the UEEF who's ships were they? The Pirates? Civilians? Other independent governments?

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I believe you. It makes no sense but I believe you. I don't like it much either but that's the term that gets used a lot.

Gloval's plan may be risky, but there is a certain degree of logic behind it.


Sure. Take away they toys and they can't beat you over the head with them.


Sambot wrote:
The name "Colony Bay" may be new. I never said it wasn't. However, civilians being included in the Pioneer Mission are not. One may argue that they grew up in the Sol System except that if ships were traveling back and forth why wasn't the ASC reinforced by those ships? Why did Carpenter the only one sent from who know's where when there were lots of UEEF ships right there in the system? If the ships aren't there all those kids must have traveled with the Pioneer Mission.

The UEEF did reinforce the ASC in several waves, which could indicate the UEEF fleet itself wasn't in an easy position to redeploy to Earth. The "Why" though isn't clarified in the show during Carpenter's meeting with Leonard. However, statements made in NG (Wolfe, Garfish crew) and later in TRM do suggest follow up groups occurred, though no explanation as to what is prevented the UEEF from doing more than what appears to be token offerings at those times. That is the extent of current canon AFAIK (yes the Novels have the 5year fold, but they aren't part of the current canon).

Which waves were these? I remember an ASC deep space probe returning and Major Carpenters ship. And if ships were traveling back and fourth why didn't the ASC know more about what was going on with the UEEF? Why didn't the UEEG have a large contingent of ASC troops since the UEEF would have been needing reinforcements.

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Where did the 2nd Tokugawa come from? I don't remember it.

The old guys in the Garfish could have come back with Wolf. I don' tknow why he had to come back in a single ship. Maybe a small task force?

You have to pay attention to the visuals as the Tokugawa appears in a few places, even on Earth IIRC, in the background (uRRG lists Ep47 and Ep60 as the main episodes with the ship-class appearing, though "minor" appearances might also exist given their Logan "main episodes" isn't a complete listing).


Are those confirmed UEEF ships, or are the ASC ships or are they akin to the VF-1's nose lasers and the URRG's Yamato class transports?
And why are you using a non canon source after telling me not to?


Quote:
Seto wrote:
Sambot wrote:
So who was the Doctors that Emerson have the captured Bioroid taken too?
ShadowLogan, you wanna field this one? It's been a dog's age since I watched the Masters Saga instead of Southern Cross.

Which captured Bioroid are you guys talking about (TRM can be a bit confusing because Bioroid at times seems to refer to both the pilot/operator AND the mecha in dialogue):
-"Danger Zone" and its analysis of a mostly intact blue bioroid by Miles Cochran and Samson Becket that gave Emerson a report later in the episode
-"The Trap"/"Metal Fire"'s green bioroid with the pilot autopsy by Doctor Byron, Emerson received an in person briefing on the mecha (IINM by Cochran and Becket) and then went to a breifing with Dana on the pilot (Dana gets tossed out). In "The Trap" Bowie makes it out to be a gift for Emerson.
-"Outsiders" and Zor Prime where Leonard and Emerson have a dispute on who should be doing the research Cochran or a military scientist, but I don't recall Becket being present (at least he isn't mentioned in dialogue IIRC).


Those are the guys I was thinking of, Cochrn, Becket, and Byron. They don't seem to be in the military. Work for but not in.

I suppose they could have joined the military sooner but who would have been left to train them?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:54 am
  

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Posts: 105
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Maybe for newer films. I know they didn't used to be so strict about language when I was a kid. I know I've seen movies with swear words as a kid and then again when older that were edited for TV.

They've been doing it for a long time now... though "acceptable" language levels vary depending on what time a film that's been edited for TV will be airing.


I can remember when swear words and nudity were on TV with a viewer warning at various times of the day. Now days all that gets cut out and dubbed over.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
If they'd stayed in the Sol System those old enough would have ended up fighting the Robotech Masters. And after they wouldn't have had enough ships to get to Tirol.

You're still stuck on this view that there's only the Sol system and Tirol... and that's just not accurate, but most of the New Generation cast would've been too young for combat when the Masters came calling.


Actually I'm not but somebody insists that there were no outer solar system colonies or even civilians on board UEEF ships.

And most of does not mean all. Lunk would have been of age to serve in the ASC. Not that he was drafted. Which canon says he would have been with the UEEF. Which seems odd since the ASC needed troops more but they still had civilians.
Quote:

Sambot wrote:
You said they did and there doesn't seem to be regular traffic back and forth. Just Wolf's ship. If there was regular traffic the Earth would have been much more heavily defended. And didn't you say that all the installations were no civilian colonies only military bases?

You're trying to turn a time period-specific statement into a general one.

For the first portion of the UEEF's operations in the Sentinels worlds there was no regular traffic between Earth and the UEEF. That was not an indefinite state of affairs. We know that Wolfe's unit returned and departed from a UEEF port (implied to be Mars Base) to support UEDF forces on Earth, we know the Old Timers unit was sent back to fight the Robotech Masters, and we know the UEEF attempted to evacuate what it could from Earth before the Invid had secured the planet. After that, the UEEF seems to have taken a more personal interest in the militarized colonies on Luna, and probably those further out in the solar system as well.


Except the UEEF was still fighting the Regent and then Edwards while the ASC fought and died. Yes Wolfe was sent back but he arrived late. We don't know why the old timers left but considering their equipment it would have had to be a lot later than Carpemter
than Wolfe'. Presuming they didn't fight the Robotech Masters. When did the UEEF try to evacuate the planet? With what ships? IF they had the ships why not use them to defend Earth? And of courtse the UEEF would be interested ins surviving colonies/bases. They didn't have any other place to start their invasion from.



Quote:
No, I did not say there were no civilian colonies in the Sol system... I said the colonies were militarized during and after the 2nd Robotech War. Now they are effectively military bases and staging areas, even though the military still refers to them as colonies on occasion.


Who did?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:37 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
Sambot wrote:
in episode 54 we're told that reinforcements arrived from "deep space", including several 'Battle class' ships (the ASC's smaller cruisers) and some sort of shuttle or frigate we don;t have official info on. this group has been assumed by many to be UEEF troops, though it could have been ASC forces on maneuvers just as easily. the UEEF assumption though is largely due to the fact that the 'deep space' group came to ALUCE, and in episode 60 we have a shot of the ALUCE fleet, including a Tokugawa in the background. it stands out some due to the tan color scheme.

as far the old guys and wolfe go. your probably right that they were likely with Wolfe's group. though i'd suspect that it was more than just the one ship. since we're told the old guys were sent to help fight the masters, we have to assume they arrived at the latest 2031, just prior to the invid arrival. enough time to catch the tail end of the fighting vs the masters.



Thanks. I always took them to be ASC ships. I must have missed the Tokugawa though.

I would think that Wolfe would have more than one ship. I'm also not sure they did fight the Masters. If they'd arrived to fight them they would have been sent in. Since they weren't I'm going to say they arrived after.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:42 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Assuming the SDF-2 was, as depicted in Comico's version laid out by Carl Macek, a second Macross-class ship inspired by the unused art for the SDF-2 from the original Macross series finale, it should've been quite capable of delivering a preemptive fight-ending "earth shattering kaboom" via the main gun, much like the SDF-3 did to the headquarters of Edwards' forces on Optera.


Still seems like really long odds. Especially since they wouldn't know where to shoot at.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:00 am
  

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Seto wrote:
Assuming the SDF-2 was, as depicted in Comico's version laid out by Carl Macek, a second Macross-class ship inspired by the unused art for the SDF-2 from the original Macross series finale, it should've been quite capable of delivering a preemptive fight-ending "earth shattering kaboom" via the main gun, much like the SDF-3 did to the headquarters of Edwards' forces on Optera.

Capable yes, but it also depends on factors they don't really have any information on which can make it risky. I agree that the Zentreadi are supposed to be the main method the Masters use to wage war, but dialogue from the same scene seems to suggest that the Masters do have a capacity for war themselves w/o using the Zentreadi (Gloval references "Robotech Forces", which doesn't seem like a Zentreadi reference)

Seto wrote:
Well, sort of... it doesn't attribute the fleet to the Pioneer Mission, but rather to the Robotech Expeditionary Force in general. The Wayback machine only does the timeline section correctly if you view the saga-level timeline link, it won't work if you use the dropdown menus from the original site. I do recall the same entry, though I can't recall what year it was, though...

I pulled this from the Feb25,2015 archive for 2022: 'The SDF-3 launches and takes its position as the flagship of the Robotech Expeditionary Force, marking the official start of the "Pioneer" mission.' This suggests that REF/UEEF is an organizational name(s), but Pioneer Mission is an operation name).

I wasn't using the combo-box fields, but rather the saga-icon. Sentinels has its own hidden timeline, such that it is, if you know its code for the addressbar, IINM SEN or SENT. And you are right it does work, I just have to go father back in the wayback machine than I had bookmarked it to.

Sambot wrote:

When did the ASC have regular meeting wish UEEF ships to exchange passengers so those kids could go to a UEEF boot camp instead of a ASC one? And if the Robotech Ship didn't belong to the UEEF who's ships were they? The Pirates? Civilians? Other independent governments?

Within Canon it is unknown, but the UEDF does operate robotech ships. But be it UEEF or UEDF their ships are going to have finite supplies and need to either rendezvous with other ships for supplies or return to a base/spacestation for them (then you have the issue of repairs, etc). All of which provides options for exchanging passengers. With Earth as an option upto 2029-31 (which could indicate Minmei's time period of stowing away in current canon).

Sambot wrote:
Which waves were these? I remember an ASC deep space probe returning and Major Carpenters ship. And if ships were traveling back and fourth why didn't the ASC know more about what was going on with the UEEF? Why didn't the UEEG have a large contingent of ASC troops since the UEEF would have been needing reinforcements.

Carpenter, Transport Squadron 85 (TS85, they arrive via hyperspace and suspected of being UEEF as glitterboy2098 said) are from the TRM arc. Wolfe and the Garfish crew constitute a wave or waves. What they establish is that the UEEF was quite capable of sending ships back.

The UEDF:ASC's only link with the UEEF goings-on in canon is space station Liberty at that point in time. Earth's link with SSL was at times being jammed during the 2RW. IIRC it is said one of the returning waves in TRM was responding to the original mayday by SSL. This can indicate that FTL communications can have a delay based on distance traveled, much like conventional radio communications. That would seem to explain why the UEDF:ASC and UEEF aren't up to date on each other's activities and why it takes so long to redeploy. If TMS events in the reconstruction arc with the Masters are any indication it took the Masters approx. 2 years to become aware of the destruction of over 4 million robotech vessels in another galaxy (which means FTL communication/sensors are involved and they have signal lag).

Sambot wrote:
Are those confirmed UEEF ships, or are the ASC ships or are they akin to the VF-1's nose lasers and the URRG's Yamato class transports?
And why are you using a non canon source after telling me not to?

Unknown, we know the UEEF was sending some ships back around this later point in the story, but official confirmation is lacking, but official sources that are applicable DO paint to the Tokagawa being a UEEF only ship. These later appearances aren't considered animation errors like the nose lasers and Yamato-class AFAIK.

While the Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide is a fan-work source that should be ignored (I admit I use it for convenience at times, but I also am clear that is what I am using and why). However I am not really using their fan-work material, anyone can sit down and watch the 85ep and come away with the same "main episode" list for a given example. Which is a lot different than using them as a source for the designation of the Yamato-class or VF-X-5's Fighter Mode for example. I don't have the time or inclination currently to rewatch TRM arc to make notes (what dialogue quotes I can provide are ones I have made previously and have them archived, I have a similar thing with the Logan's visual record, I do not have anything concerning notes for the Tokagawa's appearances which is why I referenced the uRRG's main episodes footnotes, though I know a Tok. appears after Carpenter).

Personally I don't care if you want to include non-canon versions into your take on the RPG for your campaigns, but for discussion purposes on the boards (here and elsewhere) it is best to treat the various versions (past and present authorized by HG) as Separate Alternate Universes for all practical purposes (though HG does not characterize it this way).

Sambot wrote:
Those are the guys I was thinking of, Cochrn, Becket, and Byron. They don't seem to be in the military. Work for but not in.

I suppose they could have joined the military sooner but who would have been left to train them?

By implication from Leonard at the time I think Byron is supposed to be military (unless Leonard's opinion has changed between "Metal Fire" and "Outsiders" when he iniated the confrontation with Emerson and later backed down), but Cochrn isn't and Becket is in a gray area (as he wasn't mentioned). The thing is you are also looking at people in 2029-30 on Earth to justify a 2042-4 time frame in Space. Robotech does take place over a 4.5 decade time span (1999-2044) and things will change over such a large span of time.

Train them militarily? There are numerous ways to look at that speculatively, but none are addressed in canon (which is part of a problem with RT, lots of unanswered questions from a canon perspective). For speculative example: the UEG could have mandatory military service with them just being reactivated for UEEF purposes after some period of being a civilian.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:45 pm
  

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as I remember it, in the old canon:
the SDF-2 was built in the lake back to back with the SDF-1 through a combination of new production, and cannibalizing parts from the SDF-1.

in the older canon where ships had "fold bubbles" taking ships along to use as landers (garfish and horizonts) that were no themselves capable of space fold if they were "close enough" to be in the projected fold radius they could "hitch a ride" in addition you could have a "primary ship" project a fold bubble, and additional ships synch with it to "extend their bubbles" into a larger common fold bubble.

when the SDF-3 left in the older canon, they took a small fleet with them, although some indications were that they were meeting up with a fleet that had already left. Prior to attacking the masters on tyrol.

the problem I personally have is that I haven't been following the "new canon" because frankly I feel that the older canon was more consistent and coherent than the "new canon"


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:31 pm
  

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In Love Live Alive we have a mass evacuation of people from Earth.

Where did all these people end up? Leaving them on the evacuation ships seems pretty cruel (they didn't look like they were built for long range travel) and the warships of the UEEF would have restrictions on crew size.

So this points to the existence of some form of facilities able to house the large refugee population. Call them bases, call them colonies, call them anything but late for dinner, there would have been the facilities somewhere.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:40 pm
  

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Sambot wrote:
Wasn't Scott's age mentioned in the novel which was official at the time?

The novels were never official... per HG, they were one of several products developed while HG was not paying a blind bit of notice to what the licensees were doing.



Sambot wrote:
I didn't say that he appeared. I asked if Bowie complained about his going.

Scott neither appears nor is mentioned in Sentinels, so no... the only kids that were out in space with the UEEF were the ones born out there after the expeditionary forces left Earth.



Sambot wrote:
Regardless of how it's used, it seems as if you're saying the kids were shipped to the Sol System when they were born and then shipped back in time for basic training. Yet there's no ships to do any of that.

Not necessarily... they could just as easily have been born in one of the militarized colonies on the moon or Mars, or on a ship tasked to garrison one of the closer bases like Liberty station. There's a lot of galaxy that isn't the front line in the war for the Sentinels worlds.



Sambot wrote:
I don't know about people sleeping in hallways but dubbing of shows still happens. Shows much larger than Robotech. And in this digital age several thousand seems steep. Maybe it is the going price but it seems steep to do something one can do with home editing software.

Dubbing is done, yes... but Robotech is not a straight dub like the industry standard. It is a rewrite, where the American distributor tried to completely change the story of the original show and many of the accompanying trappings from the original like the music and sound effects. They even cut animation from separate shows together to make new episodes. That simply isn't done in this day in age, because it's incredibly expensive and regarded as artistically unsound by the audience. Within a few years of Robotech coming out, the practice was already dying and shows that did it are generally regarded very poorly.

As far as home editing, professional grade software is still several thousand dollars a copy right there... never mind all the mixing and mastering tools.



Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:
And yet they still had power to order arrests and trials.

In Prelude, it's the military brass ordering the arrests and trials...

Which would be a retcon.

IIRC it was also the military in the Sentinels comics... so, probably not.



Sambot wrote:
Lost me there. The shows were already produced. They just needed to take the translations of different stories and somehow make them into one and edit the scripts.

That's not what they did. Robotech's "creators" heavily rewrote the original shows to make them into a story quite different from what the Japanese creators of those shows had intended, edited footage to remove gore and sexual content, spliced animation from different shows together, replaced the music, the sound effects, the opening and closing titles, etc.

All that is considered production work, with the exception of audio mixing and editing... which is postproduction work.



Sambot wrote:
True. But Lisa doesn't strike me as one to ignore a warning from Exedore.

Even the most levelheaded characters are prone to bouts of profound stupidity when the writer's overworked, inconsistent, or both... Robotech was, and is, a very low-budget affair that had to compromise in a lot of areas to stay on budget.



Sambot wrote:
When did it resume? A couple ships decades apart isn't a regular trade route.

Trade route? Who's talking about trade routes? We're talking about troop movements sent for staging to reinforce bases in the Sol system and resources from the resource bases being sent out to the factory satellites.



Sambot wrote:
Except there weren't any available ships. The UEEF was busy fighting the Regent and the ASC lost their ships fighting the Masters. So where did these ships come from? Sure Wolfe had a few ships on his return to Earth which would take by clones and other humans. But that's still not a regular ferry service. And it's certainly not enough for divisions of young adults ready for boot camp. And if those kids came from places other than the Sol System, wouldn't that mean that there were more colonies as well as ships carrying civilians? Something you insist canon says otherwise?

UEEF relief forces are depicted carrying out evacuations of Earth in Robotech: Love Live Alive, for one. Colonel Wolfe came from one of those units that landed to reinforce the ASC and evacuate surviving troops. Dana Sterling and Louie Nichols were both evacuated by one such unit, and eventually made their way to Space Station Liberty.

You're reaching quite hard over questions that've been answered many times before in this thread.



Sambot wrote:
Who Scott went with depends on which canon you give credit too.

There is only the one canon... the official one. It's fans who attribute alternate universe status to the titles Harmony Gold disowned after the reboot.



Sambot wrote:
If there weren't any ships to support colony efforts where did the ships come from to resume regular traffic to Earth? And if there's regular traffic why not have more colonies? And where did all these kids come from?

From the UEEF bases on the Moon, on Mars, orbiting Jupiter, possibly Neptune (if the base there truly exists), Liberty station, etc. Once the UEEF cleared up things in the Sentinels worlds, probably also from the UEEF HQ on Tirol. They weren't cut off forever, since we know they were sending ships back as early as the end of the 2nd Robotech War.




Sambot wrote:
When did the ASC have regular meeting wish UEEF ships to exchange passengers so those kids could go to a UEEF boot camp instead of a ASC one? And if the Robotech Ship didn't belong to the UEEF who's ships were they? The Pirates? Civilians? Other independent governments?

That would have been explained in the Robotech Academy series, but the Kickstarter didn't come anywhere close to success... but there are UEEF ships other than just those on the front lines of the war with the Regent. There were garrison forces protecting factory satellites, bases, and the like.




Sambot wrote:
Which waves were these? I remember an ASC deep space probe returning and Major Carpenters ship. And if ships were traveling back and fourth why didn't the ASC know more about what was going on with the UEEF? Why didn't the UEEG have a large contingent of ASC troops since the UEEF would have been needing reinforcements.

Carpenter's forces, Colonel Wolfe's forces, possibly the old timers, etc.

The ASC didn't know what was going on with the UEEF because communications were spotty, and for almost the entire 2nd Robotech War the Masters were jamming Earth's communications.

The RPG greatly exaggerates the size of the ASC and UEEF, however... they were much, MUCH smaller operations than the game gives them credit for being. (Part of the blame unfortunately goes to the fans who collated the original stats for HG, who injected rather a lot of guesswork instead of doing research, and whose grasp of Japanese was not especially good.)




Sambot wrote:
Actually I'm not but somebody insists that there were no outer solar system colonies or even civilians on board UEEF ships.

There were no outer solar system colonies... unless Jupiter Base was also a colony, but it's never described as such the way Mars Base and ALuCE are.

There were no civilian populations aboard UEEF ships either, just soldiers and any kids they happened to have while away from Earth.



Sambot wrote:
And most of does not mean all. Lunk would have been of age to serve in the ASC. Not that he was drafted. Which canon says he would have been with the UEEF. Which seems odd since the ASC needed troops more but they still had civilians.

The ASC never instituted a draft... and if the Sentinels story is any indication the ASC was the dregs who didn't make the cut to join the UEEF. Lunk probably scored high enough to secure a spot with the UEEF instead.



Sambot wrote:
Except the UEEF was still fighting the Regent and then Edwards while the ASC fought and died. Yes Wolfe was sent back but he arrived late. We don't know why the old timers left but considering their equipment it would have had to be a lot later than Carpemter

Canonically, the Garfish-class is one of the oldest classes of ship in the post-1st Robotech War inventory... and the UEEF gear was developed around the same time as the UEDF gear from the 2nd Robotech War, as most of it was available in 2022. IIRC Lancer even identifies some of their equipment as quite old, though it's the same designs used everywhere else in that saga.

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Last edited by Seto Kaiba on Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:45 pm
  

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guardiandashi wrote:
in the older canon where ships had "fold bubbles" taking ships along to use as landers (garfish and horizonts) that were no themselves capable of space fold if they were "close enough" to be in the projected fold radius they could "hitch a ride" in addition you could have a "primary ship" project a fold bubble, and additional ships synch with it to "extend their bubbles" into a larger common fold bubble.

That's actually still true...



guardiandashi wrote:
when the SDF-3 left in the older canon, they took a small fleet with them, although some indications were that they were meeting up with a fleet that had already left. Prior to attacking the masters on tyrol.

That, on the other hand, isn't. In both the "movie" and the comics, the SDF-3 left alone and didn't have any ships with them until some time after arriving at Tirol. (Of course, in the old version they knew right where Tirol was and folded directly there.)





Jefffar wrote:
Where did all these people end up? Leaving them on the evacuation ships seems pretty cruel (they didn't look like they were built for long range travel) and the warships of the UEEF would have restrictions on crew size. [

So this points to the existence of some form of facilities able to house the large refugee population. Call them bases, call them colonies, call them anything but late for dinner, there would have been the facilities somewhere.

By all accounts, they ended up at the militarized resource stations on Luna, at Mars Base, and some ended up as far out as Space Station Liberty (like the survivors of the ATAC 15th Squad).

The in-system colonies are usually referred to as military bases only, after being militarized by the ASC and UEEF, but most of them are periodically identified as colonies. Only the Jupiter Base and the potentially canon Neptune Base aren't described as militarized colonies.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:13 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
Where did all these people end up? Leaving them on the evacuation ships seems pretty cruel (they didn't look like they were built for long range travel) and the warships of the UEEF would have restrictions on crew size. [

So this points to the existence of some form of facilities able to house the large refugee population. Call them bases, call them colonies, call them anything but late for dinner, there would have been the facilities somewhere.

By all accounts, they ended up at the militarized resource stations on Luna, at Mars Base, and some ended up as far out as Space Station Liberty (like the survivors of the ATAC 15th Squad).

All which accounts? Where? What sources are these 'accounts' of which you speak?
It is easy to simply claim a thing... but is there any support for this beyond your simple claim that it is so?

Seto Kaiba wrote:
The in-system colonies are usually referred to as military bases only, after being militarized by the ASC and UEEF, but most of them are periodically identified as colonies. Only the Jupiter Base and the potentially canon Neptune Base aren't described as militarized colonies.

I am curious about the support for this 'Neptune Base'
(I am personally not familiar with a canon Jupiter Base either actually)
I ask because I am highly skeptical of an argument that claims that the solution to there being any out system colonies, is to invent new in-system colonies from whole cloth.
Creating colonies is creating colonies.
Never mind the question of how or where exactly one would colonize these places.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:34 am
  

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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:24 am
  

Hero

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eliakon wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
Where did all these people end up? Leaving them on the evacuation ships seems pretty cruel (they didn't look like they were built for long range travel) and the warships of the UEEF would have restrictions on crew size. [

So this points to the existence of some form of facilities able to house the large refugee population. Call them bases, call them colonies, call them anything but late for dinner, there would have been the facilities somewhere.

By all accounts, they ended up at the militarized resource stations on Luna, at Mars Base, and some ended up as far out as Space Station Liberty (like the survivors of the ATAC 15th Squad).

All which accounts? Where? What sources are these 'accounts' of which you speak?
It is easy to simply claim a thing... but is there any support for this beyond your simple claim that it is so?

Seto Kaiba wrote:
The in-system colonies are usually referred to as military bases only, after being militarized by the ASC and UEEF, but most of them are periodically identified as colonies. Only the Jupiter Base and the potentially canon Neptune Base aren't described as militarized colonies.

I am curious about the support for this 'Neptune Base'
(I am personally not familiar with a canon Jupiter Base either actually)
I ask because I am highly skeptical of an argument that claims that the solution to there being any out system colonies, is to invent new in-system colonies from whole cloth.
Creating colonies is creating colonies.
Never mind the question of how or where exactly one would colonize these places.


to be honest Neptune or Jupiter (or any gas giant) bases would most likely be one of 3 possibilities:
on one or more of said planets moons in which case either Jupiter or io base could technically be correct (if io jupiters moon was the actual location)
an orbital construct such as a robotech factory satellite placed in orbit around said planet, and then noted or named like it was the planets base.
potentially stupid option an installation in the atmosphere of the planet similar to cloud city on Besbin (from star wars) or the installation in Jupiter from the movie Jupiter rising, with of course a robotech spin.

now the 1 argument that might make a Jupiter atmospheric installation make sense in the "new canon" where they are using the SLMH fuel is it might make for easier fuel manufacture if you can get the hydrogen already significantly compressed and or in a metallic or borderline metallic state by pulling it out of the deep atmosphere or "surface" of a gas giant like Jupiter.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:39 am
  

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as far as the ships from the Sentinels (aka SDF-3 and any supporting fleet it had) and the ships coming to earth the way I remember it, at least in the old canon, version is you have to remember that the SDF-3 had a significant factory on board that could definitely manufacture munitions, veritechs, and potentially larger vessels (or at least parts for them) as resources became available.

I know its a totally different genre but I immediately think of things like the Homeworld game series, where you gather up the resources needed, and them fabricate the new ships you want. it doesn't resolve the issue of crews, of course but if the SDF-3 could fabricate up all the parts for say an Izuki command carrier, even if it had to "unload/assemble" a spacedock to assemble it, then the waves of reinforcements to earth start making a lot more sense, they were manufacturing new ships from the resources they had, and or were gathering, and splitting them between reinforcements for themselves, and once they had enough to feel comfortable, they would build additional ships, and when they had "enough" to be worthwhile they would dispatch the "relief fleet" back to earth. this of course means that one of the factors that determined when and how much got sent to earth was based in part on what they felt they could "afford" to send back.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:49 am
  

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Seto wrote:
IIRC Lancer even identifies some of their equipment as quite old, though it's the same designs used everywhere else in that saga.


He identifies the H-90 as such the old-timers on the Garfish are trading (and by extension the Garfish itself). Based on Lunk's statement about Nader Jr and images in his flashback we know CVR-3 is that old, the VR-041 Cyclone, and his heavy duty vehicle are also that old at least. Then we have LLA/Love&War also establishing that the CVR-3 is that old.

IINM the only "new" stuff identified in NG arc is the VR-052, the Beta Fighter, and the Shadow Models (for humans, Invid seem to have introduced at least two new units: Enforcer and their hybrid piloted Battloid).

guardiandashi wrote:
to be honest Neptune or Jupiter (or any gas giant) bases would most likely be one of 3 possibilities:
on one or more of said planets moons in which case either Jupiter or io base could technically be correct (if io jupiters moon was the actual location)
an orbital construct such as a robotech factory satellite placed in orbit around said planet, and then noted or named like it was the planets base.
potentially stupid option an installation in the atmosphere of the planet similar to cloud city on Besbin (from star wars) or the installation in Jupiter from the movie Jupiter rising, with of course a robotech spin.

now the 1 argument that might make a Jupiter atmospheric installation make sense in the "new canon" where they are using the SLMH fuel is it might make for easier fuel manufacture if you can get the hydrogen already significantly compressed and or in a metallic or borderline metallic state by pulling it out of the deep atmosphere or "surface" of a gas giant like Jupiter.

Jupiter's Moon of Io makes no sense for a manned facility with present knowledge (and when the OSMs are written, and more so the RT re-write) due to its location, active geology, and resources. The moon's active geology would make a surface/underground facility short lived due to all the volcanic activity. Resource wise, the other 3 large moons of Jupiter make more sense as they offer water (Io doesn't). And it's orbital location also makes it dicy to want to stay around for very long IINM (which would rule out an orbiting platform) due to Jupiter's radiation belts and the volcanic material shot into orbit around Jupiter.

I'm not sure about the atmospheric strato-station's level of intelligence*, though Jupiter's strong gravity would seem to make the other gas giants more attractive for mining operations.

*Also it is Bespin not Besbin in Star Wars. StarCom also had a strato-station in Jupiter's atmosphere.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:01 am
  

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guardiandashi wrote:
now the 1 argument that might make a Jupiter atmospheric installation make sense in the "new canon" where they are using the SLMH fuel is it might make for easier fuel manufacture if you can get the hydrogen already significantly compressed and or in a metallic or borderline metallic state by pulling it out of the deep atmosphere or "surface" of a gas giant like Jupiter.

Oh, Jupiter Base officially exists... so we don't really have to rationalize it. Harmony Gold was even selling Jupiter Base merch at one point. SLMH doesn't exist in canon Robotech, and by the time Jupiter Base is first hinted at, fusion-powered mecha have gone the way of the dinosaur.

It goes all the way back to the original MOSPEADA, where Jupiter was one of the colonies that fought for and won its independence from Earth in the decades prior to the Inbit invasion and also one of the colonies the setting material indicates was supplying troops and equipment for the recapture of Earth. The AFC-01Z (RT: VF/A-6Z) was a variant built by Jupiter Base.

(In Macross, there were also numerous civilian and military bases in Jupiter's vicinity after the First Space War... three space colony "satellite cities", and resource bases on Ganymede and Europa.)



EDIT: Almost forgot, Neptune Base may or may not exist... its first and only mention was the appearance of Neptune Base markings on a piece of unused concept art for Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, the VF-13 Gamma Fighter was drafted with Neptune Base markings.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:11 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
IIRC Lancer even identifies some of their equipment as quite old, though it's the same designs used everywhere else in that saga.


He identifies the H-90 as such the old-timers on the Garfish are trading (and by extension the Garfish itself). Based on Lunk's statement about Nader Jr and images in his flashback we know CVR-3 is that old, the VR-041 Cyclone, and his heavy duty vehicle are also that old at least. Then we have LLA/Love&War also establishing that the CVR-3 is that old.

IINM the only "new" stuff identified in NG arc is the VR-052, the Beta Fighter, and the Shadow Models (for humans, Invid seem to have introduced at least two new units: Enforcer and their hybrid piloted Battloid).

guardiandashi wrote:
to be honest Neptune or Jupiter (or any gas giant) bases would most likely be one of 3 possibilities:
on one or more of said planets moons in which case either Jupiter or io base could technically be correct (if io jupiters moon was the actual location)
an orbital construct such as a robotech factory satellite placed in orbit around said planet, and then noted or named like it was the planets base.
potentially stupid option an installation in the atmosphere of the planet similar to cloud city on Besbin (from star wars) or the installation in Jupiter from the movie Jupiter rising, with of course a robotech spin.

now the 1 argument that might make a Jupiter atmospheric installation make sense in the "new canon" where they are using the SLMH fuel is it might make for easier fuel manufacture if you can get the hydrogen already significantly compressed and or in a metallic or borderline metallic state by pulling it out of the deep atmosphere or "surface" of a gas giant like Jupiter.

Jupiter's Moon of Io makes no sense for a manned facility with present knowledge (and when the OSMs are written, and more so the RT re-write) due to its location, active geology, and resources. The moon's active geology would make a surface/underground facility short lived due to all the volcanic activity. Resource wise, the other 3 large moons of Jupiter make more sense as they offer water (Io doesn't). And it's orbital location also makes it dicy to want to stay around for very long IINM (which would rule out an orbiting platform) due to Jupiter's radiation belts and the volcanic material shot into orbit around Jupiter.

I'm not sure about the atmospheric strato-station's level of intelligence*, though Jupiter's strong gravity would seem to make the other gas giants more attractive for mining operations.

*Also it is Bespin not Besbin in Star Wars. StarCom also had a strato-station in Jupiter's atmosphere.

Io was just the first moon of Jupiter that came to mind for use as an example. but as I said I don't remember any details about the actual nature of "Jupiter base"

I was mostly pointing out that a base on/in one or more of Jupiters moons would have the capability of being "hidden" so that hostiles such as the Zentradi, Robotech masters, Invid, or others might overlook it.

a robotech factory satellite or other manufactured orbital platform for use as a base poses a number of issues, and an atmospheric "floating" base is likely to pose severe technological challenges.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:48 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:
now the 1 argument that might make a Jupiter atmospheric installation make sense in the "new canon" where they are using the SLMH fuel is it might make for easier fuel manufacture if you can get the hydrogen already significantly compressed and or in a metallic or borderline metallic state by pulling it out of the deep atmosphere or "surface" of a gas giant like Jupiter.

Oh, Jupiter Base officially exists... so we don't really have to rationalize it. Harmony Gold was even selling Jupiter Base merch at one point. SLMH doesn't exist in canon Robotech, and by the time Jupiter Base is first hinted at, fusion-powered mecha have gone the way of the dinosaur.

It goes all the way back to the original MOSPEADA, where Jupiter was one of the colonies that fought for and won its independence from Earth in the decades prior to the Inbit invasion and also one of the colonies the setting material indicates was supplying troops and equipment for the recapture of Earth. The AFC-01Z (RT: VF/A-6Z) was a variant built by Jupiter Base.

(In Macross, there were also numerous civilian and military bases in Jupiter's vicinity after the First Space War... three space colony "satellite cities", and resource bases on Ganymede and Europa.)



EDIT: Almost forgot, Neptune Base may or may not exist... its first and only mention was the appearance of Neptune Base markings on a piece of unused concept art for Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, the VF-13 Gamma Fighter was drafted with Neptune Base markings.

I ask again (I know Seto has me on ignore, but does anyone else know the answer)
Where are these bases actually identified?
I know there are 'wings' (Mars wing, Jupiter wing ect) and yes, in the Japanese show those were where they came from. But since in Robotech we already know that Mars Wing does not come from mars but from the UEEF in space, the claim that Jupiter Wing and Neptune Wing have to come from bases there seems... well sketchy at best.
Is there actual stated identification of these bases existence therefore someplace or are they simply being inferred?

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Edmund Burke wrote:
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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:23 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:
now the 1 argument that might make a Jupiter atmospheric installation make sense in the "new canon" where they are using the SLMH fuel is it might make for easier fuel manufacture if you can get the hydrogen already significantly compressed and or in a metallic or borderline metallic state by pulling it out of the deep atmosphere or "surface" of a gas giant like Jupiter.

Oh, Jupiter Base officially exists... so we don't really have to rationalize it. Harmony Gold was even selling Jupiter Base merch at one point. SLMH doesn't exist in canon Robotech, and by the time Jupiter Base is first hinted at, fusion-powered mecha have gone the way of the dinosaur.

It goes all the way back to the original MOSPEADA, where Jupiter was one of the colonies that fought for and won its independence from Earth in the decades prior to the Inbit invasion and also one of the colonies the setting material indicates was supplying troops and equipment for the recapture of Earth. The AFC-01Z (RT: VF/A-6Z) was a variant built by Jupiter Base.

(In Macross, there were also numerous civilian and military bases in Jupiter's vicinity after the First Space War... three space colony "satellite cities", and resource bases on Ganymede and Europa.)



EDIT: Almost forgot, Neptune Base may or may not exist... its first and only mention was the appearance of Neptune Base markings on a piece of unused concept art for Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, the VF-13 Gamma Fighter was drafted with Neptune Base markings.

I ask again (I know Seto has me on ignore, but does anyone else know the answer)
Where are these bases actually identified?
I know there are 'wings' (Mars wing, Jupiter wing ect) and yes, in the Japanese show those were where they came from. But since in Robotech we already know that Mars Wing does not come from mars but from the UEEF in space, the claim that Jupiter Wing and Neptune Wing have to come from bases there seems... well sketchy at best.
Is there actual stated identification of these bases existence therefore someplace or are they simply being inferred?

actually robotech uses 'division' rather than 'wing' most of the time. but a valid point.

the only place i've seen "mars base" is in the original MOSPEADA material.. i don't remember "[planet] base" ever being used in the show, except with mars base Sera. (which was destroyed during macross saga)
in Prelude, e are told there is a Colony located on mars, per General Reinhardt's dialog though.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:06 pm
  

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guardianshi wrote:
Io was just the first moon of Jupiter that came to mind for use as an example. but as I said I don't remember any details about the actual nature of "Jupiter base"

I was mostly pointing out that a base on/in one or more of Jupiters moons would have the capability of being "hidden" so that hostiles such as the Zentradi, Robotech masters, Invid, or others might overlook it.

a robotech factory satellite or other manufactured orbital platform for use as a base poses a number of issues, and an atmospheric "floating" base is likely to pose severe technological challenges.

Io was referenced as the location of Jupiter Base in the 1E RPG. But even then it would have made a poor site (however that was determined, someone didn't do their homework).

I don't see how a Jovian moon base(s) would be "hidden". Sure they are out of the way, theoretically speaking, but they are hardly "hidden" given communications would give them away. The show dialogue suggests Space Station Liberty might have been located somewhere near Saturn (Ep37), nor did Saturn's rings help the SDF-1 shake off their Zentreadi persuers, etc.

I'm not sure if a strato-station floating in the atmosphere poses severe technical challenges given they have gravity control technology (power loss obviously is a concern).

eliakon wrote:
I ask again (I know Seto has me on ignore, but does anyone else know the answer)
Where are these bases actually identified?
I know there are 'wings' (Mars wing, Jupiter wing ect) and yes, in the Japanese show those were where they came from. But since in Robotech we already know that Mars Wing does not come from mars but from the UEEF in space, the claim that Jupiter Wing and Neptune Wing have to come from bases there seems... well sketchy at best.
Is there actual stated identification of these bases existence therefore someplace or are they simply being inferred?

This has been answered in previous posts. Nepture and Jupiter in the very post you quoted. Mars is also a known site for facilities from various sources (including the 85ep NG arc). Mars Base can also be seen in logos in the show at times (ex. on the Cyclone saddlebags, Beta's MM-20 missile cover, the Garfish, etc).

While the "insert planet name" Base doesn't have to be at or near the planet in question, we know that Bases exist connected with that name.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:05 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
actually robotech uses 'division' rather than 'wing' most of the time. but a valid point.

the only place i've seen "mars base" is in the original MOSPEADA material.. i don't remember "[planet] base" ever being used in the show, except with mars base Sera. (which was destroyed during macross saga)
in Prelude, e are told there is a Colony located on mars, per General Reinhardt's dialog though.

Apart from being visible in onscreen text a lot, I don't recall any overt mentions of it in dialog... but it has been a while since I last watched the American adaptations instead of the originals.

We can say with absolutely certainty that Robotech did preserve the planet-base thing and carry it forward into the post-reboot canon though. If you look to The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles pg109 and 113, the markings for the movie version Ikazuchi-class and Garfish-class show two versions: one with the new REF roundel and one with the classic Mars Base logo and the words MARS BASE directly above it. There are also a few mentions of Mars Base in the 2E RPG core book, including it being one of the options for place of birth in the tables for background information.

IIRC, Sue Graham identifies herself as being from the Jupiter branch of an intelligence division, so that may be a confirmation of the art showing Jupiter Base markings on the -Z variant of the Alpha and on the VR-038, though Jupiter Base seems to have been almost completely forgotten by post-reboot publications like the RPG or AotSC.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:46 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
actually robotech uses 'division' rather than 'wing' most of the time. but a valid point.

the only place i've seen "mars base" is in the original MOSPEADA material.. i don't remember "[planet] base" ever being used in the show, except with mars base Sera. (which was destroyed during macross saga)
in Prelude, e are told there is a Colony located on mars, per General Reinhardt's dialog though.

Apart from being visible in onscreen text a lot, I don't recall any overt mentions of it in dialog... but it has been a while since I last watched the American adaptations instead of the originals.

We can say with absolutely certainty that Robotech did preserve the planet-base thing and carry it forward into the post-reboot canon though. If you look to The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles pg109 and 113, the markings for the movie version Ikazuchi-class and Garfish-class show two versions: one with the new REF roundel and one with the classic Mars Base logo and the words MARS BASE directly above it. There are also a few mentions of Mars Base in the 2E RPG core book, including it being one of the options for place of birth in the tables for background information.

IIRC, Sue Graham identifies herself as being from the Jupiter branch of an intelligence division, so that may be a confirmation of the art showing Jupiter Base markings on the -Z variant of the Alpha and on the VR-038, though Jupiter Base seems to have been almost completely forgotten by post-reboot publications like the RPG or AotSC.

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I ask again (I know Seto has me on ignore, but does anyone else know the answer)
Where are these bases actually identified?
I know there are 'wings' (Mars wing, Jupiter wing ect) and yes, in the Japanese show those were where they came from. But since in Robotech we already know that Mars Wing does not come from mars but from the UEEF in space, the claim that Jupiter Wing and Neptune Wing have to come from bases there seems... well sketchy at best.
Is there actual stated identification of these bases existence therefore someplace or are they simply being inferred?

This has been answered in previous posts. Nepture and Jupiter in the very post you quoted. Mars is also a known site for facilities from various sources (including the 85ep NG arc). Mars Base can also be seen in logos in the show at times (ex. on the Cyclone saddlebags, Beta's MM-20 missile cover, the Garfish, etc).

While the "insert planet name" Base doesn't have to be at or near the planet in question, we know that Bases exist connected with that name.

My problem with this line of logic is that we KNOW that "Mars Division" (aka Mars Base Division) is NOT from Mars. It is a UEEF force from deep space.
Thus it is proof AGAINST the idea that the unit names are colony names.
If we know that "Mars Division" is not from Mars, then why should we think that Jupiter Division is from Jupiter?
And if the Jupiter Division doesn't have to be from Jupiter, then that sort of means that Jupiter Division is NOT proof of a Jupiter Colony.
It would almost seem that the reclamation divisions were being named after locations in sol (Jupiter, Mars, Neptune) which was, I believe, the explanation in the old novels before they got jossed. But it would fit the facts better than trying to claim that they are from (and thus prove the existence of) colonies in (and only in) the solar system...

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Edmund Burke wrote:
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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:10 am
  

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Seto wrote:
IIRC, Sue Graham identifies herself as being from the Jupiter branch of an intelligence division, so that may be a confirmation of the art showing Jupiter Base markings on the -Z variant of the Alpha and on the VR-038, though Jupiter Base seems to have been almost completely forgotten by post-reboot publications like the RPG or AotSC.


"36th Squadron Jupiter Section" is what she actually states. Scott's reply to this about the fleet, which doesn't seem to support the notion that Sue came from Jupiter Base based on dialogue. Off hand I don't recall JB markings on the VR-038 or VFA-6Z in the show (I know the MPC Alpha-Z has it on decals, and maybe the Beta-Z MPC).

Ep83 "ReflexPoint"
Sue: My name's Sue Grahm Intelligence Department of the 36th Squadron Jupiter Section
Scott: Jupiter then where's the rest of the fleet

eliakon wrote:
My problem with this line of logic is that we KNOW that "Mars Division" (aka Mars Base Division) is NOT from Mars. It is a UEEF force from deep space.
Thus it is proof AGAINST the idea that the unit names are colony names.
If we know that "Mars Division" is not from Mars, then why should we think that Jupiter Division is from Jupiter?
And if the Jupiter Division doesn't have to be from Jupiter, then that sort of means that Jupiter Division is NOT proof of a Jupiter Colony.
It would almost seem that the reclamation divisions were being named after locations in sol (Jupiter, Mars, Neptune) which was, I believe, the explanation in the old novels before they got jossed. But it would fit the facts better than trying to claim that they are from (and thus prove the existence of) colonies in (and only in) the solar system...

Except we know from a variety of official sources that Mars in this period is home to a base or bases. We don't know if a given Planet's military formation (ex Mars Divsion, Jupiter Section, etc) are actually based at the planet in question or not is true, even if they are from the planet in question though doesn't mean they can't be rotated out into deep space (in real world State side units can and do get rotated overseas for deployment, same principle) for a return to Earth first nor does it prevent a base(s) from being located at the planet (or vicinity) in question..

The show itself is also pretty loose when it comes to the term "deep space" as previously stated.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:29 pm
  

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note that a section, in military parlance, is an alternate term for either a squad or a platoon, depending on the military involved. generally in american tradition (which robotech tends to use), it is a term for a platoon, usually a specialized support formation that is part of a larger unit.

so sue graham basically said "My name's Sue Graham Intelligence Department of the 36th Squadron Jupiter [platoon]", that is, she is part of the 36th squadrons intelligence personnel, in a platoon with the designation "jupiter."

so the identity of "jupiter division" is even in doubt here. and 'jupiter base' was never used.

also i would be wary of using the merchandising as a basis.. since HG also sold do you remember love toys and other non-robotech items. not to mention issued reprints of the (very non-canon at the time) McKinney novels and comico comics adaptions. so merchandise is NOT a basis for determining the canonicity of anything.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:23 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
"36th Squadron Jupiter Section" is what she actually states. Scott's reply to this about the fleet, which doesn't seem to support the notion that Sue came from Jupiter Base based on dialogue. Off hand I don't recall JB markings on the VR-038 or VFA-6Z in the show (I know the MPC Alpha-Z has it on decals, and maybe the Beta-Z MPC).

Ep83 "ReflexPoint"
Sue: My name's Sue Grahm Intelligence Department of the 36th Squadron Jupiter Section
Scott: Jupiter then where's the rest of the fleet

I'm not so sure it doesn't support Jupiter Base's existence... quite apart from the VR-038 and AFC-01Z having clear Jupiter Base markings in the art, Scott's response to Sue's affiliation suggests the placename has significance for him, rather than just being an arbitrary unit designation. "Section" has historically been used to refer to either your traditional half-platoon, or a functional sub-unit of a headquarters operation (which seems to be the case here). If she's from Intelligence, that would suggest her affiliation is an administrative section... and her use of "squadron" without qualifiying it as part of a division and Scott's reaction of instantly connecting her affiliation to the fleet and not ground troops like his own 21st Mars Division suggests she's from a naval intelligence unit.

If she's from "Jupiter Section" of a naval squadron's intelligence division, that'd make it highly probable that she's assigned to the portion of that squadron's intelligence operations that were stationed at/attached to Jupiter Base.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Except we know from a variety of official sources that Mars in this period is home to a base or bases. We don't know if a given Planet's military formation (ex Mars Divsion, Jupiter Section, etc) are actually based at the planet in question or not is true, even if they are from the planet in question though doesn't mean they can't be rotated out into deep space (in real world State side units can and do get rotated overseas for deployment, same principle) for a return to Earth first nor does it prevent a base(s) from being located at the planet (or vicinity) in question..

Pretty much all of the equipment the Mars Divisions use is badged with the the M logo and the words MARS BASE, which makes is kind of a slam dunk that the Mars Divisions are so named because they were originally founded at Mars Base and may still be administratively headquartered and logistically supported from there. The concept art published on Kickstarter for Robotech Academy kind of removes all doubt, identifying Mars as the strategic base of operations for the Mars Divisions.

And, of course, Robotech is fairly consistent in using <PLACE> BASE to literally mean a base at that place. Sometimes those bases also carry a second name, like Moon Base ALuCE on Earth's moon, or Mars Base Sara on Mars, but if based upon consistent usage in the show "Mars Base" would be on or orbiting Mars.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:29 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
IIRC, Sue Graham identifies herself as being from the Jupiter branch of an intelligence division, so that may be a confirmation of the art showing Jupiter Base markings on the -Z variant of the Alpha and on the VR-038, though Jupiter Base seems to have been almost completely forgotten by post-reboot publications like the RPG or AotSC.


"36th Squadron Jupiter Section" is what she actually states. Scott's reply to this about the fleet, which doesn't seem to support the notion that Sue came from Jupiter Base based on dialogue. Off hand I don't recall JB markings on the VR-038 or VFA-6Z in the show (I know the MPC Alpha-Z has it on decals, and maybe the Beta-Z MPC).

Ep83 "ReflexPoint"
Sue: My name's Sue Grahm Intelligence Department of the 36th Squadron Jupiter Section
Scott: Jupiter then where's the rest of the fleet

eliakon wrote:
My problem with this line of logic is that we KNOW that "Mars Division" (aka Mars Base Division) is NOT from Mars. It is a UEEF force from deep space.
Thus it is proof AGAINST the idea that the unit names are colony names.
If we know that "Mars Division" is not from Mars, then why should we think that Jupiter Division is from Jupiter?
And if the Jupiter Division doesn't have to be from Jupiter, then that sort of means that Jupiter Division is NOT proof of a Jupiter Colony.
It would almost seem that the reclamation divisions were being named after locations in sol (Jupiter, Mars, Neptune) which was, I believe, the explanation in the old novels before they got jossed. But it would fit the facts better than trying to claim that they are from (and thus prove the existence of) colonies in (and only in) the solar system...

Except we know from a variety of official sources that Mars in this period is home to a base or bases. We don't know if a given Planet's military formation (ex Mars Divsion, Jupiter Section, etc) are actually based at the planet in question or not is true, even if they are from the planet in question though doesn't mean they can't be rotated out into deep space (in real world State side units can and do get rotated overseas for deployment, same principle) for a return to Earth first nor does it prevent a base(s) from being located at the planet (or vicinity) in question..

The show itself is also pretty loose when it comes to the term "deep space" as previously stated.

Do you mind me asking what these variety of sources are? (I am not an expert on the franchise and am honestly curious)

However, assuming that these sources are accurate (And as there is no reason to doubt ShadowLogan I will assume they are) we have A Mars Base that may or may not be (but seems most likely to be) the fleet base for Mars Division (which is marked Mars Base). Groovy
This could be as simple as the real world example of the Soviet/Russian Black Sea Fleet based in the Black Sea that is still made up of the Soviet/Russian navy. (I.e. home port for a forward deployed portion of the main fleet). Which would explain why a UEEF (sub) fleet is based out of Mars. Though I do admit it is possible that it is really some sort of subordinate/colonial sub-fleet (such as the Vichy Fleet which operated subordinately to the Kriegsmarine)

Either way this does nothing to prove the existence of a Jupiter base. Because there is no Jupiter division mentioned, just a Jupiter Section.
This is rather significant because the claim that Mars Division, with all of its lesser commands and units, is based out of Mars Base and thus demonstrates that there is a base (and possibly a colony) on Mars is a wee bit larger than a section, which is a subordinate unit to a numbered squadron. And while this could be a planetary location named fleet, it could also be any number of other things. For example Jupiter could be an operational name to a section or operation like Enigma, Silverplate, Peppermint, Crossroads, et multiple cetera (I could literally go on all day with operational names just from WWII...including two separate instances of Operation Jupiter!). A codeword would in fact seem to fit the facts better. If "Jupiter" is a fleet level assignment (i.e. a Jupiter section is the sort of thing attached to fleet level officers) then the presence of a Jupiter Section should indicate the rest of the Fleet... so where is it?

And there has STILL been no support provided for this "Neptune Base"

All of which leaves me wondering where all the evacuees in LLA went? Or are they supposed to have all resettled on Mars? Even though it can't actually support life and needs massive infrastructure supplies to support people? (just how many bases the size of Mars Base would you need to handle the evacuation anyway? How much water, biomass, soil, crop samples, etc.? Just when were all of these facilities built?)
With out actual support for the existence of these two bases

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:50 pm
  

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I think based on LLA we can say for sure that off world facilities (some people are getting hung up on the c word here) able to accommodate a large number of civilians existed.

The precise number of these facilities, their purposes, their capacities, their date of founding and their locations are points of debate, but their existence isn't.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:31 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
I think based on LLA we can say for sure that off world facilities (some people are getting hung up on the c word here) able to accommodate a large number of civilians existed.

The precise number of these facilities, their purposes, their capacities, their date of founding and their locations are points of debate, but their existence isn't.

*proposes we use the word OWF then instead of the contentious "C" word* :-D

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:53 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
I think based on LLA we can say for sure that off world facilities (some people are getting hung up on the c word here) able to accommodate a large number of civilians existed.

Well... that's a fairly broad term, though the most prominently-featured of them (the ones on Luna and Mars) are explicitly identified having originally been built as colonies and subsequently militarized during the 2nd Robotech War. All we know about Jupiter Base is that it exists, and Neptune Base may or may not exist... and the rest are space stations apart from the UEEF compound on Tirol.

Plenty roomy, I'd reckon... though from everything I've read in AotSC and elsewhere, the evacuees were not particularly numerous and were almost entirely military units being rescued from the failing defensive battle against the Invid. We know they ended up as far afield as Liberty station, though that is IIRC the closest deep space station to Earth.



Jefffar wrote:
The precise number of these facilities, their purposes, their capacities, their date of founding and their locations are points of debate, but their existence isn't.

We can assign a relatively broad timeframe for the founding of Moon Base ALuCE and its sister installations on Luna, and Mars Base on Mars... they were built between the end of the 1st Robotech War and were well-established by the start of the 2nd Robotech War, during which they were militarized. 2014-2028 or so. Impossible to say when Jupiter Base was founded, apart from that it must have been an operating facility in the mid-to-late 2030's, given that Jupiter Base equipment was used by the UEEF on Earth.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:04 am
  

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Seto wrote:
I'm not so sure it doesn't support Jupiter Base's existence... quite apart from the VR-038 and AFC-01Z having clear Jupiter Base markings in the art, Scott's response to Sue's affiliation suggests the placename has significance for him, rather than just being an arbitrary unit designation.

Scott's reaction while I agree shows a degree of significance for him could also be taken that "Jupiter" formation could also be they are one of those "Big Players" (internal examples: "Wolf Pack", "15th ATAC", "Skull Squadron", Khyron's Zentreadi Unit, etc) everyone's heard about in the past few years (Lancer and Lunk might be to out of touch).

I know JB is on the logos in art and external products, but I just don't recall it being used on either the VR-038 or VFA-6Z in the show itself off hand (Mars Base I do of course), nor is Jupiter Base in the dialogue specifically.

It could probably still be inferred though from the series given Mars and the Moon are known to have bases, and Space Station Liberty might be at/near Saturn (ep37, IF the Master's stated position is supposed to be near to their subsequent attack on SSL). Which could push for a Base on/near the planet inbetween them, and possibly even Dwarf Planets (maybe even Asteroids, though here I'd suspect more Trojan/NEO than Main Belt). Even Venus might be inferred to have a facility (NG, Scott's comment "it's as vast as venus" or close to it in NG#1 IIRC). Though Venus likely would either have to be astronomically inaccurate for this to be true (based on pre-60s concept) OR the site of some rapid terraforming operation (no easy task) OR it really isn't our Solar System (and things are coincidently similar) giving them some flexibility with differences (Planet Pamir).

Seto wrote:
Plenty roomy, I'd reckon... though from everything I've read in AotSC and elsewhere, the evacuees were not particularly numerous and were almost entirely military units being rescued from the failing defensive battle against the Invid. We know they ended up as far afield as Liberty station, though that is IIRC the closest deep space station to Earth.

One Robotech Factory Satellite, though if it has its own Fold Drives it might actually qualify as a "ship", should offer up plenty of living space all on its own to be converted. IIRC in Ep30 a Zentreadi Flagship was shown touched down with a few Destroyer-class ships on a "field" with plenty of room to spare between the ships inside the RFS. So the UEEF could sacrifice production capacity (lines or storage) at an RFS for more extensive "space cities" than the SDF-1/Macross City.

The main stumbling block is food. Unless the UEEF stockpiled for a possible massive evacuation of Earth (which TRM doesn't rule out IMHO if Leonard is to be believed that Earth could be evacuated in 7days, though the Masters seem to think it could be done in 1 or 2) or only took enough that they could support with what ever excess capacity of what ever they used as a non-Earth food source.

eliakon wrote:
Do you mind me asking what these variety of sources are? (I am not an expert on the franchise and am honestly curious)

Mars base official sources:
-85ep itself stills for NG#1 show facilities at Mars, plus there is the text on numerous examples
-Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles Graphic Novel/comic mini-series specifically identifies Mars as a site of human habitation
-Shadow Chronicles itself in visuals, though IIRC no dialogue
-less official because it was shelved as its kickstarter bombed: Robotech Academy Pilot/Series initiated by HG as a post TMS site location for a Mars Base (Martian Moon Base actually). So who knows if it still applies or has gone the way of Robotech: The Untold Story
-this also ignores Merchandise for NG-era Mars Base being sold, and TMS-era Sara Base on Mars connections, and "tossed out" pre-reboot material (like 1E RPG).

eliakon wrote:
And there has STILL been no support provided for this "Neptune Base"

Neptune Base has not been presented as a confirmed base by anyone here AFAIK, only a possibility based on the "Neptune Base" markings from official preproduction Shadow Chronicles Lineart for the VF-13 Gamma Fighter that has not been used to date.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:10 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Do you mind me asking what these variety of sources are? (I am not an expert on the franchise and am honestly curious)

Mars base official sources:
-85ep itself stills for NG#1 show facilities at Mars, plus there is the text on numerous examples
-Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles Graphic Novel/comic mini-series specifically identifies Mars as a site of human habitation
-Shadow Chronicles itself in visuals, though IIRC no dialogue
-less official because it was shelved as its kickstarter bombed: Robotech Academy Pilot/Series initiated by HG as a post TMS site location for a Mars Base (Martian Moon Base actually). So who knows if it still applies or has gone the way of Robotech: The Untold Story
-this also ignores Merchandise for NG-era Mars Base being sold, and TMS-era Sara Base on Mars connections, and "tossed out" pre-reboot material (like 1E RPG).

Very helpful. Thank you.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:27 pm
  

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the reason for the colony vs base terminology to be so contentious is one of meaning..

a base implies a primarily military facility, with limited civilian presence (mainly just the dependents of the soldiers assigned to the base)
a colony implies a primarily civilian facility, with comparatively limited military presence.

the term colony also implies a larger facility, able to house sizeable populations and more or less self contained economy and society, while a base implies a smaller population, more dependent on outside ties/supply.

whether the offworld facilities are bases or colonies thus has a big impact on how the setting as a whole works.
that offworld facilities exist was never the debate, just their nature. we see a spacestation of some kind over mars in some of the new Gen flashback shots, but a colony might have a space station attached just as easily as a base would. and a fleet might use a colony to resupply after folding in from halfway across the galaxy (or where ever tirol space is) just as easily as it would use a base. no dialog refers to bases.. heck even the "MB" markings might not mean 'mars base', since we are never told that.. it could be some other meaning. a unit marking, a UEEF recognition symbol, who knows?
and the HG merchandise is not a good source because they also sell decidedly non-canon and non-robotech stuff as well. the academy series would only apply if they make it. currently it is non-canon due to being in development hell. (and heck, for all we know if/when they do make it, they'll be referring to colonies left and right)

of course it is largely a pointless exercise, as prelude calls them colonies, and the 'bases' terminology has no basis in the current canon.

while i have no doubt that the colonies do have military bases present, for self defense if nothing else, the fact they are referred to as colonies (an the various supporting statements about the nature of the expeditionary force in the show and RT:Invasion) makes it probable that they are NOT solely military in nature.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:04 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
I know JB is on the logos in art and external products, but I just don't recall it being used on either the VR-038 or VFA-6Z in the show itself off hand (Mars Base I do of course), nor is Jupiter Base in the dialogue specifically.

I'm checking the animation now, I'll post what I come up with for that... though I think it's safe to say Harmony Gold recognizes the existence of Jupiter Base, if nothing else, given that they applied its unique markings (the J-in-heart insignia and a JUPITER BASE stencil) to the Rook Bartley VF/A-6Z MPC and its matching Beta and also a number of other merchandise items.



ShadowLogan wrote:
The main stumbling block is food. Unless the UEEF stockpiled for a possible massive evacuation of Earth (which TRM doesn't rule out IMHO if Leonard is to be believed that Earth could be evacuated in 7days, though the Masters seem to think it could be done in 1 or 2) or only took enough that they could support with what ever excess capacity of what ever they used as a non-Earth food source.

All told, as the Robotech setting doesn't have anything technologically analogous to Star Trek's replicator technology, it seems highly probable that the militarized facilities on Luna and Mars were equipped with some manner of hydroponic farming support and probably some kind of waste reclamation and reprocessing system. (One has to wonder if there's a factory satellite somewhere in deep space that was once devoted to producing rations for the Zentradi... that giant drumstick Khyron's seen eating at one point had to come from somewhere, same as the liquor in bottles that are big enough to fit a human into.)

There is also some minor evidence in the Shadow Chronicles film itself that, despite having a pronounced distaste for many alien races, some UEEF personnel are apparently acquiring food and drink from alien worlds... like that vile liquor that Marcus shares with Scott in the mess hall.



ShadowLogan wrote:
-less official because it was shelved as its kickstarter bombed: Robotech Academy Pilot/Series initiated by HG as a post TMS site location for a Mars Base (Martian Moon Base actually). So who knows if it still applies or has gone the way of Robotech: The Untold Story

The titular Robotech Academy was presented as another base at Mars, separate from the planet itself where the UEEF Mars Division was headquartered.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:23 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
the reason for the colony vs base terminology to be so contentious is one of meaning..

a base implies a primarily military facility, with limited civilian presence (mainly just the dependents of the soldiers assigned to the base)
a colony implies a primarily civilian facility, with comparatively limited military presence.

The official materials in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles calls many of the bases "militarized colonies" and describes the original purpose of ALuCE station, so they seem to have been the latter initially and then become the former due to ASC and UEEF intervention. I disagree with the bit about size, given that the ones described started their existence as offworld mining operations, rather than as something intended to be a population center. (The description implies that they were intended to be the preliminary/preparatory phase of a plan to construct permanent settlements on the moon, but it doesn't say if they ever got around to it before the resource stations/mining colonies were converted into military bases on the orders of Commander Leonard.)



glitterboy2098 wrote:
heck even the "MB" markings might not mean 'mars base', since we are never told that.. it could be some other meaning. a unit marking, a UEEF recognition symbol, who knows?

Who knows? We do. The fighters and bikes and ships all have the words MARS BASE stenciled on them in large, friendly letters visible in many scenes in the animation. Even the redesigned versions of the Ikazuchi and Garfish classes for the Shadow Chronicles movie have affiliation markings including the words MARS BASE on their hulls, as seen in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.



glitterboy2098 wrote:
of course it is largely a pointless exercise, as prelude calls them colonies, and the 'bases' terminology has no basis in the current canon.

The unit markings both in the New Generation and Shadow Chronicles explicitly say "MARS BASE". Not a symbol. The words "MARS BASE". See pages 109 and 113 of AotSC. That the Mars Base terminology is used is beyond dispute... it's right there in literal black and white.

EDIT: You can also find a fair few explicit references to Mars Base in the RT2E RPG.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:06 am
  

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Seto wrote:
There is also some minor evidence in the Shadow Chronicles film itself that, despite having a pronounced distaste for many alien races, some UEEF personnel are apparently acquiring food and drink from alien worlds... like that vile liquor that Marcus shares with Scott in the mess hall.

Alien worlds supporting the UEEF with food of course is an option, but it does beg several followup questions that would have to be addressed:
-did these worlds have enough excess capacity to help (recently liberated worlds might not be)
-was the UEEF even on friendly terms with aliens at this point in time (2031), I don't think we have actual dates for the Sentienls campaign events anymore and even Tirol's arrival IINM
-around this time, per AotSC and the N-S missile entry (IIRC might be AA), an attempt at colonization was halted after the 2RW due to hostilities, we can only speculate on who the hostilities where (it doesn't even need to be one faction), but it might indicate that UEEF did not have "friendly relations" with any new aliens at this point to help.

Zentreadi foodstuff production might be a viable option, if it's safe for normal human consumption AND the result of artificial manufacture. The Masters are known to have bio-energy supplements that look like food, the Zentreadi could also (not saying said supplements couldn't be removed during manufacture, but we can't be sure said supplements don't have some other role to play). The drumbstick you refer to might be an actual drumstick from an actual (alien) creature. We also don't know the specifics of the manufacture of said food, it could involve cloning (which in RT tends to mean protoculture)

glitterboy2098 wrote:
no dialog refers to bases.. heck even the "MB" markings might not mean 'mars base', since we are never told that.. it could be some other meaning. a unit marking, a UEEF recognition symbol, who knows?

We can clearly see "Mars Base" stenciled on various pieces of hardware in NG. You can even see these markings over at Robotech Researches Picture archive if you don't want to review all 8+hrs of the NG arc:
Veritech_Beta_10 (its a bit blurry, but Mars Base is still discernible on the MM-20 missile cover, though most of the time the markings appear to either have been removed off camera or not animated, even for the Alphas)
VR_052_Battler_Cyclone_4 (saddle bag)
VR_052_Battler_Cyclone_40 (maybe a bit blurry, but text does appear to be what is above the more common animated black triangle with white M on the saddlebag)
Garfish_Scout_Cruiser_13 (text is partly cut off in the screenshot showing "RS BASE", other shots in the episode establish this to be "MARS BASE"

That is I believe 4 instances of "Mars Base" found on hardware, each in its own episode IINM that can be easily checked. We can also add additional instances from "Ghost Town" that I know is present in the animation:
-"MARS BAS" (cutt of by shot, and later established to be BASE) can be seen over the entrance the Garfish old-timers use when the stolen Cyclones appear at the Garfish Trading Post
-"MARS BASE" can be clearly seen over the entrance they all used later in the scene when the stolen Cyclones appear at the Garfish Trading Post
-Scott does state to be from "Mars Base" to the Sheriff in "Ghost Town" after being tossed in the jailcell (Sheriff doesn't believe his "story", but its still stated), that is dialogue

So we now have 6 instances of visual references to Mars Base labled on equipment and there are probably more (NG is 25eps long), and one dialogue reference (this one probably is the only instance). This makes it pretty hard to claim some type of error is going on here.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:52 am
  

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so do we need to assume that there is a "U.N.Spacy" too, since that is plastered over a lot of stuff in the macross saga segment? a lot more stuff, even..

if markings alone, with no dialog to back them up are sufficient, then the U.N.Spacy must therefore exist as well... even though we know that HG replaced it with the UEDF, and the markings are just artifacts left over from before HgGs revising of the show.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:37 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
so do we need to assume that there is a "U.N.Spacy" too, since that is plastered over a lot of stuff in the macross saga segment? a lot more stuff, even..

if markings alone, with no dialog to back them up are sufficient, then the U.N.Spacy must therefore exist as well... even though we know that HG replaced it with the UEDF, and the markings are just artifacts left over from before HgGs revising of the show.

Funnily enough, there's a glaringly obvious problem with your reasoning that you ought to have been well aware of considering how many times I've mentioned it in this thread...

Namely, it's that Harmony Gold continues to use the term "Mars Base" in its own original works.

As I've pointed out on several prior occasions, there are clear and utterly unambiguous Mars Base markings found adorning ships and mecha in media developed and produced by Harmony Gold and its licensees... including in the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles film. The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles leaves no room for debate there, as it clearly shows Mars Division markings for the CG model UEEF ships made for the film which are that iconic triangle-M logo from the OSM with the words "MARS BASE" above it. That isn't reprinted old art from the original MOSPEADA either... it's new material made for the film. They did also reprint the OSM line art for the Horizont descent shuttle, which also carries a highly visible "MARS BASE" on the side of the hull near the cockpit.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:51 pm
  

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I'd argue a UN Spacy in Robotech would be a sub branch of the UEDF. So would a UN Army, UN Navy and UN Air Force.

I was going to make a UN Squadron joke here, but couldn't come up with anything.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:36 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
so do we need to assume that there is a "U.N.Spacy" too, since that is plastered over a lot of stuff in the macross saga segment? a lot more stuff, even..

if markings alone, with no dialog to back them up are sufficient, then the U.N.Spacy must therefore exist as well... even though we know that HG replaced it with the UEDF, and the markings are just artifacts left over from before HgGs revising of the show.

Funnily enough, there's a glaringly obvious problem with your reasoning that you ought to have been well aware of considering how many times I've mentioned it in this thread...

Namely, it's that Harmony Gold continues to use the term "Mars Base" in its own original works.

As I've pointed out on several prior occasions, there are clear and utterly unambiguous Mars Base markings found adorning ships and mecha in media developed and produced by Harmony Gold and its licensees... including in the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles film. The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles leaves no room for debate there, as it clearly shows Mars Division markings for the CG model UEEF ships made for the film which are that iconic triangle-M logo from the OSM with the words "MARS BASE" above it. That isn't reprinted old art from the original MOSPEADA either... it's new material made for the film. They did also reprint the OSM line art for the Horizont descent shuttle, which also carries a highly visible "MARS BASE" on the side of the hull near the cockpit.

Which is still circular because there the argument was not that the markings didn't exist, but that the meaning of the markings is not reliably an indication of canon. Just like how some lines in dialogue are 'throw away lines' that supposedly don't actually mean what they say? With out supporting material then the art work could just as easily be artistic license material that is drawn to 'fit the previous style' and doesn't actually mean anything.
The lack of specific dialogue about it makes it hard to know, and opinions on which is which are just that, opinions. It is easy to claim that something "is so" or "it must be so" but unless the person making the claim actually works for HG, in a canon writing capacity then they need to back up their claims with specific material that explicitly supports that exact claim that is from the current canon.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:42 am
  

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Jefffar wrote:
In Love Live Alive we have a mass evacuation of people from Earth.

Where did all these people end up? Leaving them on the evacuation ships seems pretty cruel (they didn't look like they were built for long range travel) and the warships of the UEEF would have restrictions on crew size.

So this points to the existence of some form of facilities able to house the large refugee population. Call them bases, call them colonies, call them anything but late for dinner, there would have been the facilities somewhere.



I would think that they'd go to, existing Human/Zentraedi colonies or one of the Planets the UEEF helped liberate.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:13 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Wasn't Scott's age mentioned in the novel which was official at the time?

The novels were never official... per HG, they were one of several products developed while HG was not paying a blind bit of notice to what the licensees were doing.


That's not what I remember when they were produced.


Quote:
Scott neither appears nor is mentioned in Sentinels, so no... the only kids that were out in space with the UEEF were the ones born out there after the expeditionary forces left Earth.


Even if Scot wasn't, which I think he was, How did he get to the expeditionary forces? By the time he'd be old enough to fight he'd of been in the ASC fighting the Robotech Masters. He had to of left when still a child. That makes him a civilian. Same with Lancer and Lunk.

Quote:
Not necessarily... they could just as easily have been born in one of the militarized colonies on the moon or Mars, or on a ship tasked to garrison one of the closer bases like Liberty station. There's a lot of galaxy that isn't the front line in the war for the Sentinels worlds.


So now there's colonies closer to Tirol?

Quote:
Dubbing is done, yes... but Robotech is not a straight dub like the industry standard. It is a rewrite, where the American distributor tried to completely change the story of the original show and many of the accompanying trappings from the original like the music and sound effects. They even cut animation from separate shows together to make new episodes. That simply isn't done in this day in age, because it's incredibly expensive and regarded as artistically unsound by the audience. Within a few years of Robotech coming out, the practice was already dying and shows that did it are generally regarded very poorly.


No it isn't a straight up dub but if they're going to be changing things, especially the sound you can still fix errors, unless you're either cheap or don't see them as errors.


Quote:
As far as home editing, professional grade software is still several thousand dollars a copy right there... never mind all the mixing and mastering tools.


I've seen professional quality movies produced with software costing less than a couple hundred dollars.


Quote:
Which would be a retcon.

IIRC it was also the military in the Sentinels comics... so, probably not.[/quote]

They had the council the Hunters and those loyal to them answered to in the comics.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Lost me there. The shows were already produced. They just needed to take the translations of different stories and somehow make them into one and edit the scripts.

That's not what they did. Robotech's "creators" heavily rewrote the original shows to make them into a story quite different from what the Japanese creators of those shows had intended, edited footage to remove gore and sexual content, spliced animation from different shows together, replaced the music, the sound effects, the opening and closing titles, etc.

All that is considered production work, with the exception of audio mixing and editing... which is postproduction work.


I don't think all the shows were rewritten. Edited for audiences yes but not completely rewritten.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
True. But Lisa doesn't strike me as one to ignore a warning from Exedore.

Even the most levelheaded characters are prone to bouts of profound stupidity when the writer's overworked, inconsistent, or both... Robotech was, and is, a very low-budget affair that had to compromise in a lot of areas to stay on budget.


True.

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
When did it resume? A couple ships decades apart isn't a regular trade route.

Trade route? Who's talking about trade routes? We're talking about troop movements sent for staging to reinforce bases in the Sol system and resources from the resource bases being sent out to the factory satellites.


Trade routes. Supply routes. Semantics. Just what did UEEF soldiers spend their pay on? The UEEF provides everything they'd need. And if there were ships going back and forth where were they earlier? The only evidence of that is Transport Squadron 85 and we don't know who they were or where they came from. Ships certainly weren't coming and going after TS 85 came back. The ASC would need all the ships and personnel it could get. That kind of eliminates kids born in the Sol System getting outside of it. And many are supposed to have never seen earth before. That's hard to do from inside the Sol System.



Quote:
UEEF relief forces are depicted carrying out evacuations of Earth in Robotech: Love Live Alive, for one. Colonel Wolfe came from one of those units that landed to reinforce the ASC and evacuate surviving troops. Dana Sterling and Louie Nichols were both evacuated by one such unit, and eventually made their way to Space Station Liberty.

You're reaching quite hard over questions that've been answered many times before in this thread.


Are you trying to tell me that all the "children" , Scott, Marlene, and Lancer included, were taking from Earth after fighting the Robotech Masters, had their memories altered so they'd think they never seen Earth before, were retrained in UEEF mecha, and then sent back to Earth? I can see quite a few doing some of that. But not the ones who'd never seen Earth before.

And reaching where? I read that there are no civilians and no colonies then I read that there are and you keep pointing to evidence of shipping personnel where it couldn't happen.

Quote:
From the UEEF bases on the Moon, on Mars, orbiting Jupiter, possibly Neptune (if the base there truly exists), Liberty station, etc. Once the UEEF cleared up things in the Sentinels worlds, probably also from the UEEF HQ on Tirol. They weren't cut off forever, since we know they were sending ships back as early as the end of the 2nd Robotech War.


That contradicts many in the Mars division never seeing Earth.

Quote:
That would have been explained in the Robotech Academy series, but the Kickstarter didn't come anywhere close to success... but there are UEEF ships other than just those on the front lines of the war with the Regent. There were garrison forces protecting factory satellites, bases, and the like.


And there wouldn't be civilians in these places, why?


Quote:
Carpenter's forces, Colonel Wolfe's forces, possibly the old timers, etc.

The ASC didn't know what was going on with the UEEF because communications were spotty, and for almost the entire 2nd Robotech War the Masters were jamming Earth's communications.



Carpenter had a single ship and said there wouldn't be reinforcements. The others came after the ASC died.

If ships were regularly meeting, they wouldn't need communications with Liberty.

Quote:
The RPG greatly exaggerates the size of the ASC and UEEF, however... they were much, MUCH smaller operations than the game gives them credit for being. (Part of the blame unfortunately goes to the fans who collated the original stats for HG, who injected rather a lot of guesswork instead of doing research, and whose grasp of Japanese was not especially good.)


I don't know about that. I am sure that it's more than the novels/comics made out.

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Actually I'm not but somebody insists that there were no outer solar system colonies or even civilians on board UEEF ships.

There were no outer solar system colonies... unless Jupiter Base was also a colony, but it's never described as such the way Mars Base and ALuCE are.

There were no civilian populations aboard UEEF ships either, just soldiers and any kids they happened to have while away from Earth.


Back to that again. You can't have it both ways. You say there's no colonies then there are. And those kids are civilians.

Quote:
The ASC never instituted a draft... and if the Sentinels story is any indication the ASC was the dregs who didn't make the cut to join the UEEF. Lunk probably scored high enough to secure a spot with the UEEF instead.


If the ASC which was in much more dire straights never instituted the draft, why would the UEEF?


Quote:
Canonically, the Garfish-class is one of the oldest classes of ship in the post-1st Robotech War inventory... and the UEEF gear was developed around the same time as the UEDF gear from the 2nd Robotech War, as most of it was available in 2022. IIRC Lancer even identifies some of their equipment as quite old, though it's the same designs used everywhere else in that saga.


Old equipment is find. It came out of storage. CVR-3 Armor? The Marine Sourcebook says that it was introduced in 2035. Since that had to be approved by HG that makes it canon. It'd also mean that the Old Timers were with the 10th Division. As for the Garfish being the oldest ship, why wasn't it used by the ASC?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:26 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
so do we need to assume that there is a "U.N.Spacy" too, since that is plastered over a lot of stuff in the macross saga segment? a lot more stuff, even..

if markings alone, with no dialog to back them up are sufficient, then the U.N.Spacy must therefore exist as well... even though we know that HG replaced it with the UEDF, and the markings are just artifacts left over from before HgGs revising of the show.

RE: DIALOGUE CUE FOR MARS BASE
Ep. 78 "Ghost Town" Scott Bernard States (emphasis MINE): In case your interested I just happen to be an officer from Mars Base first division of an army sent here by Admiral Hunter to liberate Earth from the Invid and organize a resistance force my orders are to locate and destroy the Invid Reflex Point buy I need-

So lets drop the "no show dialogue" bit as that is demonstratively false concerning "Mars Base" not existing in NG-era dialogue.

RE: General Evidence
Yes A Case could be made for the existence of both "UN Spacy" (TMS) and "HBT" (NG) as they both are used in markings, but not dialogue. However the markings themselves might not mean what they mean in their OSM form.

Mars Base could justify a Martian location, but it could also be used to justify a facility somewhere else that is called Mars Base. Now in visuals in the show it would seem pretty unlikely it is not a Martian Location (as all of planets to date are distinct in visual appearance IIRC, Asteroids/Dwarf Planets/moons not so much).

Sambot wrote:
I don't think all the shows were rewritten. Edited for audiences yes but not completely rewritten.

No the shows have been rewritten. I have seen (and own DVD copies) of the TRM and NG arcs in their original form (that's 59 out of 85 RT episodes IINM). You can find plenty of instances of being re-written:
-1st ep of TRM is a literal fabrication for Robotech
-2nd ep of TRM isn't just a rewrite, but a major editing job in relation to scene order
-in the OSM the setting is Glorie (not Earth) a planet outside the solar system WITH multiple moons (2 IIRC), Liberty is another world (not a space station), the Zor (RM) are former inhabitants of Glorie, Bioroid pilots are mindcontrolled prisoners (Zor Prime was a Glorie solider captured early on, not a scientist seeding a planet with Protoculture), not to mention the year the events are supposed to take place is in the late 22nd Century
-in NG the OSM has everyone coming from within the Solar System, there are no hyper drives, the occupation went on for much longer, the year is like 208x (IIRC), etc

Seto can probably list the rewrite aspects of TMS given his familiarity with the OSM for that arc. If Rabid Southern Cross Fan was still posting regularly he could probably add some things to TRM's OSM change list.

Sambot wrote:
Seto wrote:
From the UEEF bases on the Moon, on Mars, orbiting Jupiter, possibly Neptune (if the base there truly exists), Liberty station, etc. Once the UEEF cleared up things in the Sentinels worlds, probably also from the UEEF HQ on Tirol. They weren't cut off forever, since we know they were sending ships back as early as the end of the 2nd Robotech War.
That contradicts many in the Mars division never seeing Earth.

Actually it may not. It really depends on what constitutes "A planet none of these newest Robotech defenders hasn't seen in nearly 20years" (ep61 Narrator). If the Moon base became the front lines in the war, then it logically would probably seek to minimize non-combatants like Children (since officially the occupation went into the mid 2040s from 2031) on the front lines from residing there.

Even if the people that made up Mars division grewup at Mars or farther out in the Solar System their ability to "see" Earth will result in a small blue dot at best without telescope assistance, and ignores visual records, etc.

Sambot wrote:
Carpenter had a single ship and said there wouldn't be reinforcements. The others came after the ASC died.

If ships were regularly meeting, they wouldn't need communications with Liberty.

Even if ships are meeting regularly there would still be a need for communications with Liberty.

The order is: Carpenter (TRM), Transport Squadron 85 (returns via hyperspace in TRM), the Garfish/Wolfe (NG, both of whom are connected via show dialogue to the Robotech Masters arc IIRC).

Sambot wrote:
Old equipment is find. It came out of storage. CVR-3 Armor? The Marine Sourcebook says that it was introduced in 2035. Since that had to be approved by HG that makes it canon. It'd also mean that the Old Timers were with the 10th Division. As for the Garfish being the oldest ship, why wasn't it used by the ASC?

CVR-3 can not be a 2035 introduction based on canon comics.

The Old Timers can not be part of the 10th Mars Division, show dialogue precludes that for canon setup.

Why the ASC didn't use the Garfish? Any number of reasons to it being a UEEF only ship to it being an off camera thing.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:19 pm
  

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Sambot wrote:
I would think that they'd go to, existing Human/Zentraedi colonies or one of the Planets the UEEF helped liberate.

From the available depictions of the evacuation effort, most or all of the evacuees were the remnants of UEDF formations that'd been mauled by the Robotech Masters and again by the Invid. We know that the survivors of the ATAC 15th Squad ended up on Space Station Liberty (per Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles).





Sambot wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
The novels were never official... per HG, they were one of several products developed while HG was not paying a blind bit of notice to what the licensees were doing.


That's not what I remember when they were produced.

That's what Harmony Gold has said about the novelizations and most of the licensee-created material from the late 80's and the 90's... that it's not part of the official Robotech universe because those various works were of generally poor quality, internally inconsistent and inconsistent with the animated series, and were produced without any creative oversight by Harmony Gold's staff.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Scott neither appears nor is mentioned in Sentinels, so no... the only kids that were out in space with the UEEF were the ones born out there after the expeditionary forces left Earth.


Even if Scot wasn't, which I think he was, How did he get to the expeditionary forces? By the time he'd be old enough to fight he'd of been in the ASC fighting the Robotech Masters. He had to of left when still a child. That makes him a civilian. Same with Lancer and Lunk.

Per the series, Scott was still a child when the Colonel Wolfe left to join the Earth Reclamation Forces... meaning the war with the Masters was over before he was old enough to enlist. Mind you, he'd almost certainly grown up on Mars, which was controlled by the UEEF. He was also a decent soldier, so even if he'd been old enough he probably would've been routed to the UEEF instead of the UEDF on that basis. Ever since the original Sentinels OVA, the ASC has been implied to be the fate of the washouts who didn't make the cut for the Expeditionary Forces.



Sambot wrote:
So now there's colonies closer to Tirol?

SHIPS. We know there are plenty of rear-echelon transport groups and so on dashing about behind the front lines of the war in space. Those were the scrubs who were also sacrificed to try and help bail Earth out in the Masters Saga.



Sambot wrote:
No it isn't a straight up dub but if they're going to be changing things, especially the sound you can still fix errors, unless you're either cheap or don't see them as errors.

Well, we know for a fact they consider the dialog of Robotech to contain plenty of errors... they comment on that fact on Twitter every now and again when fans send them the same old questions they've been asking for decades.

They're undeniably doing Robotech on the cheap, though. Almost unfeasibly small budgets are a recurring fixture in the stories of the development and production of Robotech's animated installments. The original series was done in an unseemly rush because the budget was tiny and studio time was extremely expensive, leading to large numbers of internal inconsistencies and errors because writers weren't given enough time to check their work for consistency and voice actors were given very little down time. Similar stories of production woes resulting from insufficient budget also can be found in Sentinels, where the awkward character designs are attributed to there being no room in the budget to hire an outside studio (and rumors that many mechanical designs in that failed series were reuses of rejected designs from earlier Tatsunoko projects). Shadow Chronicles was famously done on a budget of under $1 million US, a budget that'd permit a studio to deliver a modest quality level on a 22 minute television episode, but about 1/4 as much as they'd need to do a decent job with a 80+ minute OVA episode. The second episode, Shadow Rising, was placed on preproduction hiatus because (according to HG) they were trying to secure financial backing for the film and were hoping cross-promotion with the live action movie proposal that was (and still is) mired in development hell would secure them a bigger budget. The last attempt at an animated project saw Harmony Gold try to get the fans to foot the bill for the pilot, and animation work was farmed out not to a professional anime industry studio like Tatsunoko Production or DR MOVIE... but rather to a fan-run outfit in South America.




Sambot wrote:
I don't think all the shows were rewritten. Edited for audiences yes but not completely rewritten.

You would be wrong... very, VERY badly wrong.

I've seen the original Japanese shows, Super Dimension Fortress Macross, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross, and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA many times... and I'm something of an expert on Macross. I can assure you the rewriting was fairly extensive. Here are some examples:

Robotech's "Macross Saga" - Super Dimension Fortress Macross
  • There was no global war in 1999 in the original Macross... the shots Robotech attributes to that conflict are actually the Unification Wars, a series of small brushfire conflicts between the newly-established Unification (UN) Government and various regional partisans opposed to the idea of a one-world government that lasted from 2000 to 2008.
  • There is no faction corresponding to the Robotech Masters. The Zentradi Army's creators, the ancient civilization known as the Protoculture, vanished long ago and are presumed extinct.
  • Consequently, the ship that became the SDF-1 Macross actually belongs to the Zentradi Army's foes... the Supervision Army, with whom the Zentradi have been at war for 500,000 years. There's nothing at all special about the ship itself in Macross apart from the fact that it was salvaged by humans, it's a bog-standard Supervision Army gun destroyer of the type built by the thousands.
  • The Zentradi Army's reason for pursuing the Macross has nothing to do with fuel or anything like that... they're curious about the miclone species that salvaged a Supervision Army gun destroyer and employed lost technology weapons (thermonuclear reaction warheads) against them, believing that they might - just might - be a surviving enclave of their long-lost creators, the Protoculture.
  • The Macross's barrier systems are not pre-existing technologies from the alien ship, they're human inventions.
  • Vrlitwhai's (Britai's) promotion landed him a fleet of 1,213 ships... not 1 million.
  • The Zentradi fleet that attacked Earth was not the sum total of the Zentradi's forces... that 4,795,122 ship Main Fleet was one of THOUSANDS of such fleets active in the galaxy. (It was the 118th Main Fleet.)
  • In Macross, they don't chalk the genetic similarities between humans and Zentradi up to chance... they confirm after the war that humans are ALSO a species created by the Protoculture.
  • The SDF-2 is never destroyed, it is not even on Earth during the series and is an emigrant (colony) ship. It launches in 2012 under the command of Misa Hayase (RT: Lisa Hayes).
  • There is an SDF-3... or rather, several SDF-3s. Publications for the original series from before the movie Macross: Do You Remember Love? identify Vrlitwhai's ship as having held the SDF-3 designation, though subsequent works indicate SDF-3 was the colony ship Megaroad-02, and that there was a mass-production Macross-class ship SDFN-3 (one of twelve built) that was used as an advance scout for emigrant fleets.
  • None of the SDF-1's bridge crew are killed in Quamzin's (RT: Khyron's) suicide attack... the Macross isn't even damaged that badly, and is swiftly repaired. The bridge crew is still alive and kicking well into the 2040's.
  • The Zentradi are not on the verge of going extinct, as Robotech's New Generation implies... in the years following the First Space War they actually outnumber humans on Earth 8 to 1.
  • The show's main plot spans 2009-2012, not 2009-2014.



Robotech's "Masters Saga" - Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross
  • Southern Cross is set on a planet named Glorie, in the Epsilon Eridani system, in the year 2120... not Earth in the late 2020s. Earth had been abandoned due to unrestricted NBC warfare, and two planets in nearby star systems were colonized by the survivors. (Harmony Gold had to rotoscope the extra moons out of every shot of the sky in the adaptation.)
  • There is no "Space Station Liberty". Liberte is the name of the other planet humans colonized after the war, out in the Proxima system. That's where the reinforcements come from.
  • The Robotech episode "Dana's Story" was made by cutting together scenes from Macross's final episode (No.36) and Southern Cross's episode 10, with all-new dialog.
  • Jeanne (RT: Dana) is not related to anyone important at all... she's just a prat. She's not even actually from Glorie, she's an emigree from Liberte who joined the military solely to find a husband and then retire.
  • Bowie, in the original, is General Emerson's son... this is why he gets all that special treatment.
  • "Zor" is not a person... it's the name of the race of aliens attacking Glorie. Though they're not actually aliens, they're the descendants of one of the first expeditions to Glorie who were temporally displaced by a warp drive accident and spent several thousand years living on Glorie in symbiosis with the Protozor flowers before their own civil war forced them to abandon the planet due to nuclear winter (which is just lifting when the current batch of colonists arrive).
  • The character Robotech calls "Zor Prime" is a human man named Seifreit Weisse, who was one of many human soldiers captured by the Zor and brainwashed into a "Biohuman" to fight for them. Once freed from mind control, he's almost psychotic in his desire to get revenge for the violation of his mind. (This is why "Zor Prime" is always wearing a Southern Cross Army uniform in his memories.) The Zor don't fight using clones or androids.
  • The Protozor flowers are not a power source. The Zor evolved a symbiotic relationship with the Protozor flowers and are biologically dependent on them for their mental stability and life processes.
  • At the end of the war, Seifreit's screwup actually loses humanity the war... the Protozor are released from their containment, and exposure to them turns the human population of Glorie into Zor themselves.



Robotech's "New Generation" - Genesis Climber MOSPEADA
  • This series is set in 2083, not 2042. Earth had a gas crisis in the 2000s and switched to all-hydrogen fuel and fusion power, and colonized Mars and Jupiter. Mars and Jupiter had fought for and won independence from Earth shortly before the planet was invaded by the Inbit in 2050.
  • The Inbit don't have anything to do with flowers or anything like that, and Earth wasn't a wasteland before they arrived... their only goal is to continue their guided evolution under the hands of the queen, the Regess, to become a higher form of life. They don't have any actual antipathy for humans, they just don't perceive humans as properly intelligent life.
  • Humanity has no interstellar travel capability... the Earth Recapture forces are mustered from Mars and Jupiter colonies, and gather at staging areas on the moon before advancing on Earth.
  • There's about a 30 year gap between the Inbit conquering Earth and the first attempt to recapture it... the second attempt, which 1st Lt. Stick Bernard and the Mars Base 21st Battle Company are part of occurs in 2083.
  • Colonel Johnson (RT: Colonel Wolfe) did not win acclaim fighting aliens, but rather as a veteran of the Martian war of independence.
  • Yellow Belmont didn't choose to disguise himself as a woman arbitrarily... he's pretty much a Japanophile with a strong interest in kabuki theater, in which men traditionally play female roles.




Sambot wrote:
Are you trying to tell me that all the "children" , Scott, Marlene, and Lancer included, were taking from Earth after fighting the Robotech Masters, had their memories altered so they'd think they never seen Earth before, were retrained in UEEF mecha, and then sent back to Earth? I can see quite a few doing some of that. But not the ones who'd never seen Earth before.

No, they were born and raised elsewhere... if they've only been in space or on Mars, then they've never seen Earth. If you spent your entire life in the US and never went abroad on holiday, you'd have never seen Munich, for example.



Sambot wrote:
And reaching where? I read that there are no civilians and no colonies then I read that there are and you keep pointing to evidence of shipping personnel where it couldn't happen.

No extrasolar colonies. There are militarized colonies on the moon and Mars, and military bases at Jupiter and near-Sol deep space (Liberty station).



Sambot wrote:
And there wouldn't be civilians in these places, why?

Because when everyone is a soldier, who is left to be a civilian?



Sambot wrote:
If ships were regularly meeting, they wouldn't need communications with Liberty.

You're assuming that they would be able to communicate directly with the Expeditionary Forces without any kind of relay...



Sambot wrote:
I don't know about that. I am sure that it's more than the novels/comics made out.

I do know about that. I've translated pretty much everything that's been published for the original animation source material, and let me tell you these are NOT huge militaries... the crew of the typical Mars Base ship (Garfish-class high speed transporter) was about a dozen people, not close to a hundred. The Ikazuchi was a few hundred, not thousands. The entire ATAC had only the 15 squads and less than 500 tanks total. Most of those specialists the RPG thinks are branches of service are single, specialist squads under the regular army.



Sambot wrote:
Back to that again. You can't have it both ways. You say there's no colonies then there are. And those kids are civilians.

The kids are dependents, nothing more... and their only career path is into the military, so they're less civilians and more soldiers-in-waiting.

Also, I'm not trying to have it both ways... you're just apparently missing the point I'm making. The military bases that are mentioned in Robotech's later sagas are attributed by official material to have been colonies that were subsequently turned into military bases.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
The ASC never instituted a draft... and if the Sentinels story is any indication the ASC was the dregs who didn't make the cut to join the UEEF. Lunk probably scored high enough to secure a spot with the UEEF instead.


If the ASC which was in much more dire straights never instituted the draft, why would the UEEF?

They didn't... they didn't NEED to. As we're told, the only career option for the humans born out in space was to join the military once they came of age... and that many of them regarded it as being the human race's way of life. There was no need to institute a draft, because the military was the only employer out there in space.



Sambot wrote:
Old equipment is find. It came out of storage. CVR-3 Armor? The Marine Sourcebook says that it was introduced in 2035. Since that had to be approved by HG that makes it canon. It'd also mean that the Old Timers were with the 10th Division. As for the Garfish being the oldest ship, why wasn't it used by the ASC?

Shockingly, the RPG sourcebooks are not always correct... which is one of the reasons Harmony Gold doesn't consider the RPG to be canon.

The series clearly indicates the old timers were a UEEF unit sent back to fight the Robotech Masters... before the 1st Earth Reclamation Force and 10th Mars Division were sent back to fight.

As to why the ASC didn't use the Garfish-class... probably for the same reason the ASC didn't use any of the other stuff the UEEF developed for itself, whatever that may be. (The RPG attributes some of it to Leonard's sour grapes over the UEEF taking all the best equipment and personnel.)

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:18 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
Robotech's "New Generation" - Genesis Climber MOSPEADA

We can also add IIRC:
-Inbit tampering with the upper atmosphere leading to Stick/Scott's Divisions re-entry troubles

Seto wrote:
No extrasolar colonies. There are militarized colonies on the moon and Mars, and military bases at Jupiter and near-Sol deep space (Liberty station).

Just a reminder that per AotSC Liberty isn't the only RFS captured by the UEEF, so there could be other "deep space" bases out there beyond just Tirol and SSL (which was moved out of the Solar System due to the Invid Invasion).

Seto wrote:
As to why the ASC didn't use the Garfish-class... probably for the same reason the ASC didn't use any of the other stuff the UEEF developed for itself, whatever that may be. (The RPG attributes some of it to Leonard's sour grapes over the UEEF taking all the best equipment and personnel.)

I've given this a bit of thought and I have to wonder if the Garfish is "to light" compared to the ASC class vessels of the time period (2029-30). The Garfish only is shown with a tripple barrel cannon and a few missile launch tubes (later Shadow Refit is another matter) and 15 Veritech Fighters (in a modular feature that could be swapped out officially). While we don't have official numbers beyond the Tristar and Tok. for the period (AFAIK), visually the ASC cruisers appear to be much more potent platforms:
-sporting multiple independent turrets (here gauging power isn't possible officially, though they are used as anti-ship weapons, which is much more than the Garfish cannon is shown able to handle IINM)
-far more missile launchers (Garfish only uses them for anti-mecha duties, but the ASC cruisers are anti-ship weapons)
-more mecha (AGACs are similarly sized to solo Alpha.

We do know that the Tristar (and IIRC her ASC sister ships) are said to be capable of holding their own against Zentreadi ships (per the Infopedia). We also know that the ASC ships are old, if TMS recycling of TRM footage in 2013 is anything to go by (as wrecks are being surveyed during the Masters dialogue).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:42 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
We can also add IIRC:
-Inbit tampering with the upper atmosphere leading to Stick/Scott's Divisions re-entry troubles

Oh, we could easily double or triple the size of the lists I posted... that was just stuff I could remember off the top of my head. It could run to several pages per series once we really got going on tidbits like how the rewriting changed all the characters ranks, or how there were a million survivors in Macross and fully functional orbital facilities after the First Space War instead of just the crew of the SDF-1.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Just a reminder that per AotSC Liberty isn't the only RFS captured by the UEEF, so there could be other "deep space" bases out there beyond just Tirol and SSL (which was moved out of the Solar System due to the Invid Invasion).

Very true, though we don't know where they are... and Liberty station is supposed to be the one closest to Earth, that being the reason it became the UEEF's reclamation fleet staging area.



ShadowLogan wrote:
I've given this a bit of thought and I have to wonder if the Garfish is "to light" compared to the ASC class vessels of the time period (2029-30). The Garfish only is shown with a tripple barrel cannon and a few missile launch tubes (later Shadow Refit is another matter) and 15 Veritech Fighters (in a modular feature that could be swapped out officially). While we don't have official numbers beyond the Tristar and Tok. for the period (AFAIK), visually the ASC cruisers appear to be much more potent platforms:

I'm not sure that's the case, given that Commander Leonard's view was that he wouldn't be able to protect the Earth from a flock of baby ducklings (IIRC) with the equipment available to him.

The Tokugawa-class was canonically useless in a fight despite its size and fighter complement, and the newer Tristar-class don't seem to be particularly effective either... which makes you wonder what Zentradi ship they were benchmarked against.

I think it's probably a case of what Leonard described... the UEEF took all the best toys for themselves, and left the lower-priority UEDF to fend for themselves with the troops that washed out of the UEEF selection program and the best weapons they could independently produce with Earth's limited resources.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:02 am
  

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Seto wrote:
I'm not sure that's the case, given that Commander Leonard's view was that he wouldn't be able to protect the Earth from a flock of baby ducklings (IIRC) with the equipment available to him.

flock of pigeons actually. Though if we take that statement literally, those must be some nasty pigeons if you need ~1 mile long starships (SDF-3, Tokagawas) to deal with. Though is the Sent. OVA itself even considered canon still, I thought it fell into the category of "tossed out".

Lets also not forget that for the most part we don't canonically know what equipment the UEEF used in this period (circa 2029-30) that differed from the UEDF:ASC beyond the tokagawa, SDF-3, and Carpenter Fighter (and maybe the Alpha). There could have been more overlap in terms of hardware than we are lead to believe as prior depiction of the Sentinels did have the UEEF using ASC hardware (Logan and VHT-1, IIRC even the AGAC) along with their established NG and new created for designs.

Seto wrote:
The Tokugawa-class was canonically useless in a fight despite its size and fighter complement, and the newer Tristar-class don't seem to be particularly effective either... which makes you wonder what Zentradi ship they were benchmarked against.


"the Tristar would have easily held its own against the far larger vessels of the alien giants. However, the enemy it encountered were the Robotech Masters, whose vastly superior technology meant that the Tristar could often only barely hold its own in combat. "-Tristar Entry from the RT.com Infopedia. The Entry doesn't offer up a benchmark for the Zentreadi (though I'd suspect the "common" ship types like Scout and Destroyer as opposed to the rarer types like Flagship or Command ships).

I think most people overlook that second part when assessing the TRM arc. The Masters ARE NOT considered to be technologically EQUAL to the Zentreadi, they are considered to be technologically SUPERIOR to the Zentreadi.

That means if the Tristar (and other ASC hardware) is said* to be able to hold its own against the Zentreadi, they would be outclassed by the superior Masters hardware to the point where they would not appear to be particularly effective. They would only appear to gain effectiveness when Protoculture depletion had taken its toll (running on Empty). It was the equivalent of having a computer with minimum specs to run a particular piece of software and not the recommended specs, you might be able to run it but it won't be the best experience (and you might not even meet minimum specs as I have done that a few times where the software would run, but performance and stability took a hit).

*I think it would be easy enough for the UEDF:ASC to have realistic assessments of how their hardware would fair in a ASC v Zent. battle/war as they would have volumes of data to pull from.


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