VF-8 Logan Veritech Fighter Add-ons (Fan-Fiction)

[The Artist Formerly]

Combat isn't about a balanced approach and should never be a fair fight. WIN should be the only concern.

I agree it shouldn't be a fair fight and you should be in it to win, but there will always be a need for balance among various factors in a design to avoid turning an over/under emphasis into a major liability.

Eh... Say space helicopter out loud.

If you want to get technical though the AGAC is never deployed as a "space helicopter", it is deployed just like any other Veritech Fighter in the animation using it's jet and battloid modes exclusively (though it might enter that 'a helicopter state' during transition between the two). According to the 2E RPG the TASC lobbied to be included in the TC program because they thought with a little bit of tweaking to the design they could get a "heavy" multi-role fighter to complement the Logan and it took political wrangling to make happen (which suggests the ASC might not have resources to develop two new Veritech Aircraft simultaneously unlike the UEEF)..

Having to go meta on you, sorry.

So Macross we had missiles everywhere. Palladium rules reflect the Macross experience, first. It was the opening to the story. Southern Cross, however few missiles, I'd guess to keep animation costs down (wasn't there a note in the back of ASC book about the show getting down sized?). The Macross experience made missiles the primary weapon of combat mecha. So when we roll in from Macross to ASC, we instantly have a problem, we have to change our play style.

Beyond that, just looking at the front page of google with the words Robotech and Ajax, I get helicopter. Even the Southern Cross (super dimensional cavalry, which is only 1/100th as good as the mega dimensional cavalry) only wiki page calls it a helicopter. It's a silly idea. But we role with it and and when $%#^s like me point that everyone else should just look to the side and say "Look! A monkey." or something equally distracting.

Within the RT- continuity, if we inject plausability, we should see ASC geared with the old cast off stuff of the RDF, in the same way that the national guard flies Cobras instead of Apaches. Keeping the old stuff flying/fighting is much cheaper then developing new stuff. And that's more then just idle fact, it's cold hard speculation.

But we have to hang on to this timeline and these kind of strange things that got stuck to Robotech for the sake of the story. Your design does what the space helicopter should have. Kick back and enjoy!

[Seto Kaiba]

Just chiming in with a few meta corrections...

So Macross we had missiles everywhere. Palladium rules reflect the Macross experience, first. It was the opening to the story. Southern Cross, however few missiles, I'd guess to keep animation costs down [...].

It's more likely the result of the show's chosen inspiration... both MOSPEADA (1983) and Southern Cross (1984) tried to cash in on the success of Macross, but where MOSPEADA's creators were specifically trying to grab a piece of the sales frenzy surrounding Takatoku's Macross toys by imitating Macross's fighters, Southern Cross's creators (who didn't originally set out to make a robot show at all) seem to have based their mechanical designs much more heavily on Gundam. The Logan's inspiration was probably the FF-X7 Core Fighter, which relied much more heavily on machine guns than missiles.

(wasn't there a note in the back of ASC book about the show getting down sized?)

I don't recall if there was a mention in the RPG books, but the original Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross did end up a much shorter show than originally planned. It was originally laid out as a 39 episode TV series, but the show's poor ratings and its problems with merchandising ended up driving it to an early end at episode 23. As a result, many of the important plot points that were being built towards were never realized and the show had a rushed and profoundly unsatisfying ending in which Jeanne and Seifriet (Dana and Zor) rashly kill the Zor Lords and inadvertantly cause the protozor flowers to spread across Glorie, turning the human colonists into Zor.

Beyond that, just looking at the front page of google with the words Robotech and Ajax, I get helicopter. Even the Southern Cross (super dimensional cavalry, which is only 1/100th as good as the mega dimensional cavalry) only wiki page calls it a helicopter. It's a silly idea. But we role with it and and when $%#^s like me point that everyone else should just look to the side and say "Look! A monkey." or something equally distracting.

Actually, it's based on a real (experimental) aircraft by Sikorsky.

The thrust of the concept is that it's a helicopter equipped with jet engines that can lock its rotors and use them as auxiliary wings during high-speed jet-style flight. It was a DARPA program, but the prototype delivered in 1983 never flew before it was canceled.

[The Artist Formerly]

Just chiming in with a few meta corrections...

[Dark Helmet] I see your meta is as big as mine.[/Dark Helmet]

It's more likely the result of the show's chosen inspiration... both MOSPEADA (1983) and Southern Cross (1984) tried to cash in on the success of Macross, but where MOSPEADA's creators were specifically trying to grab a piece of the sales frenzy surrounding Takatoku's Macross toys by imitating Macross's fighters, Southern Cross's creators (who didn't originally set out to make a robot show at all) seem to have based their mechanical designs much more heavily on Gundam. The Logan's inspiration was probably the FF-X7 Core Fighter, which relied much more heavily on machine guns than missiles.

Sure, why not. Space Balls, Robotech and Gundam, all in one post. Real world costs vs artistic vision gets my vote, but I guess it doesn't really matter.

I don't recall if there was a mention in the RPG books, but the original Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross did end up a much shorter show than originally planned. It was originally laid out as a 39 episode TV series, but the show's poor ratings and its problems with merchandising ended up driving it to an early end at episode 23. As a result, many of the important plot points that were being built towards were never realized and the show had a rushed and profoundly unsatisfying ending in which Jeanne and Seifriet (Dana and Zor) rashly kill the Zor Lords and inadvertantly cause the protozor flowers to spread across Glorie, turning the human colonists into Zor.

The poor ratings problems I grasp, most of the rest of that went right over my head. I'm going to say ok though. My experience with the ASC comes from Robotech, and I didn't see the anime until after I'd already gotten more then a few Zents and Invid guts splashed on to my Veritech. If I recall it, there must be a note somewhere in the books about it.

Actually, it's based on a real (experimental) aircraft by Sikorsky.

The thrust of the concept is that it's a helicopter equipped with jet engines that can lock its rotors and use them as auxiliary wings during high-speed jet-style flight. It was a DARPA program, but the prototype delivered in 1983 never flew before it was canceled.

Wow, I wonder why they canceled the program. Regardless, space helicopter. A helicopter, in space. The logistics of keeping such a thing operational would be staggering.

[Colonel Wolfe]

If maintenance logistics were really of any concern, they would't have made transformable fighters to begin with... a Jet is complex enough, must less adding in useless swept wings, arms and legs, and the systems to make those transform... putting an x-shapred manuvering system on the back of the Ajax battiloid isn't adding that much to the maintenance, considering the IP owners own infopedia makes reference that the Ajax was easy to maintain.
as I've heard Tommy ask repeatedly, why do "fans" want to inject so much realism into a Show about 40ft tall giants, Transformers and magical singing girls?

[The Artist Formerly]

If maintenance logistics were really of any concern, they would't have made transformable fighters to begin with... a Jet is complex enough, must less adding in useless swept wings, arms and legs, and the systems to make those transform... putting an x-shapred manuvering system on the back of the Ajax battiloid isn't adding that much to the maintenance, considering the IP owners own infopedia makes reference that the Ajax was easy to maintain.
as I've heard Tommy ask repeatedly, why do "fans" want to inject so much realism into a Show about 40ft tall giants, Transformers and magical singing girls?

[Carl Johnson]Tommy? Who the **** is Tommy?![/Carl Johnson]

As to why, the Ajax is a bridge too far. It's just too silly. I never found the ASC to be a compelling setting, my group only played there like three games. The only two mecha I really liked from the setting was the TC recon battaloid and the (ironicly) Bioroid itself. So the Southern Cross book either gave us prototypes for reconstruction era or machines for Invasion/Sentinels. The Tank is okay, I kind of like the Logan with some rebuild (add mini-missiles), but the Ajax, it's just silly. As I'm typing this I'm smiling as I think "space helicopter".

[Colonel Wolfe]

[Carl Johnson]Tommy? Who the **** is Tommy?![/Carl Johnson]

Tommy Yune, the President of Development and creative director of Robotech....

As to why, the Ajax is a bridge too far. It's just too silly. I never found the ASC to be a compelling setting, my group only played there like three games. The only two mecha I really liked from the setting was the TC recon battaloid and the (ironicly) Bioroid itself. So the Southern Cross book either gave us prototypes for reconstruction era or machines for Invasion/Sentinels. The Tank is okay, I kind of like the Logan with some rebuild (add mini-missiles), but the Ajax, it's just silly. As I'm typing this I'm smiling as I think "space helicopter".

its no more silly than any other aspect of the show, but at least one is willing to admit to it's bias against the middle chapter. so I doubt its possible to find a middle ground about the aspects of the Era....
Ironically, I see no problem with the blades on the Ajax, because based in the series, they do not rotor, and are used to maneuver in battioid mode (similar to the cross-bones gundamn) in the Series, they don't add to the maintiance of the unit...
but the Logic that they wouldn't create the Ajax if the Logan was around falls apart when you look at the RPg's take on the Vf-1 and how its overpowered beyond whats its capable of in the show... a unit that powerful would have been in use til 2044.... justifiably it was replaced in the show because its made of tissue-paper in the face of the enemies fire-power.

[The Artist Formerly]

Tommy Yune, the President of Development and creative director of Robotech....

I figured, but wasn't going to let a GTA reference go. Still kicking myself for not being able make a Final Fantasy 7 joke in the post with Seto. FF-x7, Dammit, so close...

its no more silly than any other aspect of the show, but at least one is willing to admit to it's bias against the middle chapter. so I doubt its possible to find a middle ground about the aspects of the Era....
Ironically, I see no problem with the blades on the Ajax, because based in the series, they do not rotor, and are used to maneuver in battioid mode (similar to the cross-bones gundamn) in the Series, they don't add to the maintiance of the unit...
but the Logic that they wouldn't create the Ajax if the Logan was around falls apart when you look at the RPg's take on the Vf-1 and how its overpowered beyond whats its capable of in the show... a unit that powerful would have been in use til 2044.... justifiably it was replaced in the show because its made of tissue-paper in the face of the enemies fire-power.

Gundam? As in the story that brought us the Tequila gundam? Lol. I can go along with Gundam, but it too has it's silly moments and mecha.

Going meta again, the ASC story is at it's core badly written. I have no idea what it was like in the original japanese, but the enligsh version I recall was terrible. The three central characters are awful stereotypes of women, who make decisions that don't seem to be tied to any rational thinking what so ever. So if you can't connect with the characters, the very core of the story, everything else has a much tougher job to do to build up a fan base. I'd wonder if that might be behind it's poor ratings in Japan.

Second, I don't like the art of the ASC. Being subjective, it seems muted and muddled to me. Looking at it when I was watching the bit on Youtube in spanish, the action was muddy and the colors didn't really pop. The only really clean character who pops is Zor and his red type. Like Steve McQueen being injected into the Towering Inferno, a dull scene suddenly livens up. That scene from Macross of Hunter in his VT coming up on to the catapult. It's a great establishment shot. I remember it from when I first watched Macross. Nothing like that for ASC. Sorry brother.

I think bias might a strong word, this isn't a real issue, it's a matter of like and dislike and personal preference. We all sat down with our books and made our decisions on what makes for a good machine and what doesn't, long before we logged on. If I'm in a Veritech I need missiles, I need the ability to get into the air to air combat chart. I need high adaptability so I can shift from fighter plane to foot soldier to gun ship attack helicopter and back again. The Super Logan from first E does that very well. Shadow's logan pak does that well in this format. That's why I'm up on this. The Ajax doesn't get the job done as well, and it's something myself and my group have found just too silly. That is to say, broken my suspension bridge of disbelief.

[ShadowLogan]

So Macross we had missiles everywhere. Palladium rules reflect the Macross experience, first. It was the opening to the story. Southern Cross, however few missiles, I'd guess to keep animation costs down (wasn't there a note in the back of ASC book about the show getting down sized?). The Macross experience made missiles the primary weapon of combat mecha. So when we roll in from Macross to ASC, we instantly have a problem, we have to change our play style.

Macross did not make missiles the primary weapon of most combat mecha in the animation believe it or not, the VF-1s primary weapon that it used the most was its gunpod/lasers, it wasn't until NG-arc that we see missiles become the dominant weapon of choice. The Super VF only appears in x3 episodes (only used missiles, though it still has gun options), the FPA even w/all those missiles seems to still used guns (IINM the kills are nearly 50/50), the Phalanx (1E Sparan) is the only mecha dependent on missiles (IINM)

Within the RT- continuity, if we inject plausability, we should see ASC geared with the old cast off stuff of the RDF, in the same way that the national guard flies Cobras instead of Apaches. Keeping the old stuff flying/fighting is much cheaper then developing new stuff. And that's more then just idle fact, it's cold hard speculation

That though assumes two things that are unlikely: that the ASC is like the National Guard in the Earth Military, and that their is enough "old stuff" around for them to be a vialbe force for the missions it ultimately is tasked with.

Wow, I wonder why they canceled the program. Regardless, space helicopter. A helicopter, in space. The logistics of keeping such a thing operational would be staggering.

As far as the RSRA goes, it was a research program so it would have a defined start/end. It never actually flew helicopter/transition flights. It wasn't canceled because of issues, it's contract ran out.

And as I've pointed out the "helicopter" aspect is not actually used in space, it uses its Jet Mode. 1E DOES NOT show the 3rd mode the AGAC assumes for fixed wing flight (which can be seen in Internet Searches), but that is only one of two modes you will see in the animation and all 3 modes are in the 2E RPG. 1E approach was very sloppy in terms of writing up on the AJAX fluff (they incorrectly give it an "Airwolf" vibe), in 2E they did a much better job.

The Helicopter/Fixed-Wing hybrid approach as presented does offer some advantages over the traditional Guardian mode:
-more energy efficient approach to VTOL and low speed flight (helicopters are more efficient for VTOL than jets like the AV-8B and F-35B)
-do not have to contend with hot exhaust causing damage since you are blowing "cool" air downward (is actually an issue with the F-35B exhaust being too hot)
-the main wing allows the helicopter mode to function as a compound helicopter (allows for a mix of higher speed, greater payloads, greater endurance)

The Logistics can probably be simplified to if the space forces just don't maintain the helicopter only aspects that aren't needed. They could probably even get away with disabling and/or removing unnecessary components that have no use (the mass saving maneuver would reap additional small benefits to) .

don't recall if there was a mention in the RPG books,

Animation production notes exist in the 1E books, on the last page of BK4, there is a note that it "was cut short by something like 20 episodes"

It was a DARPA program, but the prototype delivered in 1983 never flew before it was canceled.

Not exactly true. It would be accurate to say it never flew as a Helicopter (IINM) or a transition flight (this I am sure on), but it did fly in fixed-wing flight.

http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/ ... 555-2.html

[The Artist Formerly]

Macross did not make missiles the primary weapon of most combat mecha in the animation believe it or not, the VF-1s primary weapon that it used the most was its gunpod/lasers, it wasn't until NG-arc that we see missiles become the dominant weapon of choice. The Super VF only appears in x3 episodes (only used missiles, though it still has gun options), the FPA even w/all those missiles seems to still used guns (IINM the kills are nearly 50/50), the Phalanx (1E Sparan) is the only mecha dependent on missiles (IINM)

Just a heads up, you're talking over my head a bit. I'm a fan of the RPG, not so much the Anime. Saw all of them on VHS back in the early 90s. I read one of the Mackinley novels. My wife bought me a remastered or something edition from Wal-mart, and I watched as far as "goodbye big brother" before I stopped. Just lost interest.

So here's how I remember it.

Max used missiles to send Breetai on a (what turned out to be) a round trip to space. When the SDF-1 pulled their Daedalus maneuver, missiles played a big part of it. Every establishment shot of the VT, save for the wrecks getting pulled through Macross city, the missiles are part of the look. I recall the cut turn shoot down I think Rick made. That stock footage cut dodge of a vertiech coming out of a volley of missiles. They certainly had the most cinematic presence of any weapon seen short of the main cannon.

That though assumes two things that are unlikely: that the ASC is like the National Guard in the Earth Military, and that their is enough "old stuff" around for them to be a vialbe force for the missions it ultimately is tasked with.

Sure. Ultimately, without a duct taping of VFs into ASC footage, we aren't going to see it. I'm just saying, that's the logical position, not the one that fits our game world.

As far as the RSRA goes, it was a research program so it would have a defined start/end. It never actually flew helicopter/transition flights. It wasn't canceled because of issues, it's contract ran out.

And as I've pointed out the "helicopter" aspect is not actually used in space, it uses its Jet Mode. 1E DOES NOT show the 3rd mode the AGAC assumes for fixed wing flight (which can be seen in Internet Searches), but that is only one of two modes you will see in the animation and all 3 modes are in the 2E RPG. 1E approach was very sloppy in terms of writing up on the AJAX fluff (they incorrectly give it an "Airwolf" vibe), in 2E they did a much better job.

The Helicopter/Fixed-Wing hybrid approach as presented does offer some advantages over the traditional Guardian mode:
-more energy efficient approach to VTOL and low speed flight (helicopters are more efficient for VTOL than jets like the AV-8B and F-35B)
-do not have to contend with hot exhaust causing damage since you are blowing "cool" air downward (is actually an issue with the F-35B exhaust being too hot)
-the main wing allows the helicopter mode to function as a compound helicopter (allows for a mix of higher speed, greater payloads, greater endurance)

The Logistics can probably be simplified to if the space forces just don't maintain the helicopter only aspects that aren't needed. They could probably even get away with disabling and/or removing unnecessary components that have no use (the mass saving maneuver would reap additional small benefits to) .

Eh. Logan to super Logan in the same format as Hornet to super Hornet makes more sense to me. Optional pods and retro-fit Service Life Prolongment program makes better sense.

Meta, the art team just thought this was cool. I don't think so, but eh, I doubt they're crying because I don't care for their art.

[Alrik Vas]

The amount of kills the VF-1 made with missiles are impossible to count. You don't clearly see all the kills or ID the number of targets being fired upon. In many scenes all you have is a bunch of missiles flying, then a bunch of explosions.

The gun kills often get shown because they happen much closer where the action is.

Again-again-again-again-again-certainly not the last time-again: The show isn't an accurate depiction of the hardware's performance.

[taalismn]

The amount of kills the VF-1 made with missiles are impossible to count. You don't clearly see all the kills or ID the number of targets being fired upon. In many scenes all you have is a bunch of missiles flying, then a bunch of explosions.

The gun kills often get shown because they happen much closer where the action is.

Again-again-again-again-again-certainly not the last time-again: The show isn't an accurate depiction of the hardware's performance.

Worse, with multi-warhead missiles, some of 'em vote twice...

[Alrik Vas]

Lol, missile approaches battlepod. pops into 4 pieces, battlepod gets hit by 1 warhead.

Oooowwww...that sucked.

New warhead approaches.

Wait, wait...we already did this.

Oh, I'm his cousin, I have impact rights also.

oh bugger...

[Colonel Wolfe]

The show isn't an accurate depiction of the hardware's performance.

Technically speaking... the show is the sole depiction of the performance of hardware.. it came first, and all other works are derivatives of that depiction.

[Alrik Vas]

I'm curious if that's true. Design notes of the hardware depicted may have been written before the show was animated. It would make logical sense if that were the case. It would also make sense that those notes weren't followed faithfully for the purposes of dramatization.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm curious if that's true. Design notes of the hardware depicted may have been written before the show was animated. It would make logical sense if that were the case. It would also make sense that those notes weren't followed faithfully for the purposes of dramatization.

For both the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, it can be demonstrated beyond dispute that much of the technical data predates the production of the series animation. A lot of the technical detail comes from the handwritten notes the studio's mechanical designers included on the animation model sheets the production houses doing the actual animation used as reference. You can clearly see this in the reprinted animation model sheets used in virtually any official art book for either series, including books that were printed and distributed while the shows were still on the air.[sup]1[/sup]

Unfortunately, due to the nature of the presentation in This is Animation 10: Southern Cross, it's impossible to say if Studio Ammonite also conceived its technical details of the setting beforehand... but it is, in my expert opinion as a translator of official production art books, highly probable they did (to the extent they detailed anything).[sup]2[/sup]



1. Too many books to list them all, but for starters there's Macross Perfect Memory, This is Animation Vol.3, 5, and 7, Shoji Kawamori's Macross Design Works book, Kazutaka Miyatake's Macross & Orguss Design Works book, Animex #23, any Entertainment Bible books relevant to Macross (Studio Nue #1 and #2, Vol.27, Vol.51), and practically any other art book that includes production art. Same for MOSPEADA, with various issues of Out!, Geneis Climber MOSPEADA Graffiti, Entertainment Archive 8: Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, etc.

Animex 23 was probably the first Macross publication to come out with art that showed explicit technical detail of the Valkyrie and other mecha. It was published in 1982. This is Animation Vol.3: Macross Part 1 also has a decent amount of production art containing technical data and was published a few days before Episode 17 first aired (2/10/1983).


2. The creators of Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross published very little detail of anything in the setting... many of the mecha that appear in the series have no name, and even many of the main mecha like the Spartas or Bioroid have only the barest details like humanoid-mode height mentioned.

[The Artist Formerly]

The amount of kills the VF-1 made with missiles are impossible to count. You don't clearly see all the kills or ID the number of targets being fired upon. In many scenes all you have is a bunch of missiles flying, then a bunch of explosions.

The gun kills often get shown because they happen much closer where the action is.

Again-again-again-again-again-certainly not the last time-again: The show isn't an accurate depiction of the hardware's performance.

Worse, with multi-warhead missiles, some of 'em vote twice...

[MRV] I'm MRV and I approve this message[/MRV]

People in the next election vote for missiles, the only party with explosions guaranteed.

Is your neighborhood threatened by late night prowlers and thieves? Missile party!
National defense issues? Missile party!
Need to negotiate for land rights? Missile party!
Neighbor's dog digging up your flower bed? Missile party!

[Arnie100]

The amount of kills the VF-1 made with missiles are impossible to count. You don't clearly see all the kills or ID the number of targets being fired upon. In many scenes all you have is a bunch of missiles flying, then a bunch of explosions.

The gun kills often get shown because they happen much closer where the action is.

Again-again-again-again-again-certainly not the last time-again: The show isn't an accurate depiction of the hardware's performance.

Worse, with multi-warhead missiles, some of 'em vote twice...

[MRV] I'm MRV and I approve this message[/MRV]

People in the next election vote for missiles, the only party with explosions guaranteed.

Is your neighborhood threatened by late night prowlers and thieves? Missile party!
National defense issues? Missile party!
Need to negotiate for land rights? Missile party!

Neighbor's dog digging up your flower bed? Missile party!

Seconded by his running mate Cluster Bomb.

[ShadowLogan]

Max used missiles to send Breetai on a (what turned out to be) a round trip to space. When the SDF-1 pulled their Daedalus maneuver, missiles played a big part of it. Every establishment shot of the VT, save for the wrecks getting pulled through Macross city, the missiles are part of the look. I recall the cut turn shoot down I think Rick made. That stock footage cut dodge of a vertiech coming out of a volley of missiles. They certainly had the most cinematic presence of any weapon seen short of the main cannon.

Ben actually used the missiles to blow a hole in the hull so Max could send Breetai out into space.

I do not dispute that there are instances when missiles are used in the animation, what I am saying is that the majority of the footage favors the use of guns over missiles in the animation for TMS saga. Put simply: they use guns more often than missiles.

Sure. Ultimately, without a duct taping of VFs into ASC footage, we aren't going to see it. I'm just saying, that's the logical position, not the one that fits our game world.

The logical position though would be:
-the ASC has the same requirements as the RDF when defending the planet from alien invasion, so mecha and hardware should be comparable
-given a "last war" mentality in terms of development, the ASC should have been in a position to deal with the Zentreadi
-you can not keep old hardware maintained forever without making compromises, sometimes the only way to fully exploit technology is with a new design
-the Pioneer Mission (UEEF, REF) are said to have basically taken everything but the kitchen sink with them in terms of weapon systems, so the ASC would have to build new

As far as inserting cross-saga hardware, they do have options from dialogue cues, juxtaposition cuts, and commision new animation (unlikely w/TMS). They could also do it via comics aside from various game types.

Eh. Logan to super Logan in the same format as Hornet to super Hornet makes more sense to me. Optional pods and retro-fit Service Life Prolongment program makes better sense.

While creating new versions of the Logan instead of the AGAC makes sense, there are limits to what you can do with the Logan platform in terms of evolutionary development. The AGACs in theory has more room for growth potential than the Logan.

The amount of kills the VF-1 made with missiles are impossible to count. You don't clearly see all the kills or ID the number of targets being fired upon. In many scenes all you have is a bunch of missiles flying, then a bunch of explosions.

Not quite, when I do counts like this I look for clear definition of what was hit, just seeing a bunch of undefined explosions rippling through the sky means nothing in so far as if anything got hit because when the SDF-1 main gun fires in Ep1 you can see explosions happening in between the forks, so "explosions" does not automatically mean kills, a kill would be seeing an actual target destroyed (which it is possible depends on screen size).

[Colonel Wolfe]

I'm curious if that's true. Design notes of the hardware depicted may have been written before the show was animated. It would make logical sense if that were the case. It would also make sense that those notes weren't followed faithfully for the purposes of dramatization.

Design notes that are created before the animation don't actually depict how things work. Designers may have had minor input, but by the end they are just artists. Directors, producers and animators have way more influence and they do the actual depiction of the equipment.
Case in point, there is a PRe-production piece of art for the Alpha-fighter that details 6 additional missiles and is dated months before the series aired.
These missiles are never seen properly in the animation, this is cause by some to say that these missiles do not exist, because they are not in the animation, even though technical schematics of the system were created before the show, signed and dated by the designer of the Alpha....
If a few drawings by the artist/designer is the trump card for how things "actually" function, The Alpha has 6 Medium range missiles on 3 each on 2 hardpoints... but in the past these technical details have been dismissed whole-cloth because they didn't make it into the series.
I'm just looking for consistency when it comes to these things...

[Alrik Vas]

Then none of it is reliable, and since the RPG designers made their decisions, that's all we can use unless we want to change it because we don't like it. Just like producers, directors and animators do.

The argument for the footage dictating directly doesn't work.

[taalismn]

Then none of it is reliable, and since the RPG designers made their decisions, that's all we can use unless we want to change it because we don't like it. Just like producers, directors and animators do.

The argument for the footage dictating directly doesn't work.

I think the original producers of the material were more inclined to go with the Rule of Cool that in serious attempt to depict realistic space or aerial combat beyond 'This is how the human aircraft will move, and this is how the alien hardware's going to butcher them until we need some scenes of the heroes getting some of their own back).

I don't see any end to the debate between the strict 'if it ain't in the OA it don't exist' purists and the 'its' the top of the iceberg, there's gotta be more there' extapolationists, owing to the fact that the animators/creators of the OA aren't going to waste time going into painstaking detail plotting out stuff that isn't going to be seen or expounded on in the show, unless they are insanely prescient about some future dedicated fanbase picking it apart like hardcore biographers.

[Alrik Vas]

Thanks for that, let's see what the Romanian judge says.

[taalismn]

Thanks for that, let's see what the Romanian judge says.

"Kill them all. Let God sort them out."

[Jefffar]

Regrettably, technical documents as are being discussed and such only provide us (and the RPG designers) with hints. They may be fairly authoritative in some cases, but they are not the definitive record for details. That is the actual show, which, as noted elsewhere, are subject to the needs of dramatic story telling, making it not completely reliable.

From this cloth the RPG Designers (and players) must make their best deductions as to what should and shouldn't be in the RPG and how their game stats should be set out. I don't expect folks to agree on the final versions that the RPG designers come up with, and I don't expect others to agree with the nature of revisions that individuals propose.

In short, there really aren't right and wrong answers, just what is presented to us for the game, and what we then create from it when we play.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, Jefffar, I don't really disagree. For the purposes of the current thread, your assessment holds very true. We can't tell the OP he's wrong with something he made up.

Though other threads have specifically challenged that notion in regards to the authors of the RPG.

[Jefffar]

And disagreement is fine. It's a natural thing.

[The Artist Formerly]

Ben actually used the missiles to blow a hole in the hull so Max could send Breetai out into space.

I do not dispute that there are instances when missiles are used in the animation, what I am saying is that the majority of the footage favors the use of guns over missiles in the animation for TMS saga. Put simply: they use guns more often than missiles.

My point is that missiles have the cinematic presence. The drive and the impact. When Kevin and the palladium team walked away from watching macross, missiles and how they were treated on screen is what they clearly walked away with. The rule system reflects that.

I don't seek to disagree with you about the missiles themselves, but rather to highlight how important they are to the game rule set and why your Logan options are more valuable then the space helicopter.

The logical position though would be:
-the ASC has the same requirements as the RDF when defending the planet from alien invasion, so mecha and hardware should be comparable
-given a "last war" mentality in terms of development, the ASC should have been in a position to deal with the Zentreadi
-you can not keep old hardware maintained forever without making compromises, sometimes the only way to fully exploit technology is with a new design
-the Pioneer Mission (UEEF, REF) are said to have basically taken everything but the kitchen sink with them in terms of weapon systems, so the ASC would have to build new

As far as inserting cross-saga hardware, they do have options from dialogue cues, juxtaposition cuts, and commision new animation (unlikely w/TMS). They could also do it via comics aside from various game types.

Eh... Making new molds for part manufacture is expensive and time consuming. Designing and testing those parts in space, atmosphere and under water takes a lot of time and can't be done in a lights out mode. Catching the stuff that doesn't work and rebuilding them, then fixing everything that the last fix disrupted, it's time consuming (labor costs) in the extreme. Robotech factory or no, mass producing two new armies with two totally different weapons systems just doesn't make cents (hehehe, money joke).

Logically, the REF should have left all the old stuff for the southern cross and taken all the new stuff. The REF taking the old gear is a reason tossed down to fix a plot hole. Okay cool.

While creating new versions of the Logan instead of the AGAC makes sense, there are limits to what you can do with the Logan platform in terms of evolutionary development. The AGACs in theory has more room for growth potential than the Logan.

Except the Ajax is inferior to the Logan at just the platform level. The Logan is smaller, faster and more agile. The ASC already had a space fighter that exceeds the Ajax's capabilities in ship to ship combat. I'm not really sure what role the Ajax is supposed to excel at.

[ShadowLogan]

Except the Ajax is inferior to the Logan at just the platform level. The Logan is smaller, faster and more agile. The ASC already had a space fighter that exceeds the Ajax's capabilities in ship to ship combat. I'm not really sure what role the Ajax is supposed to excel at.

The Logan is certainly smaller and more agile (depending on what you look at and where), but the AGAC itself is not inferior to the Logan, or even the Super Logan:
-In 1E the Logan is only Faster in atmosphere (Mach 4.6 vs Mach 2.5), Super Logan doesn't change this
-In 1E in space the AGAC is faster (Mach 5 v Mach 4 ARE THE LISTED Speeds in space). Super Logan doesn't change this (Mach 4.8, so still slower)
-In 2E the AGAC is technically faster in vehicle mode in both space or atmosphere (personally I'm not thrilled w/ the revised speeds)
-In 1E and even 2E, the AGAC natively carries more missiles than the Logan and is not negatively impacted by their carriage as the Logan does have to fire them off to transform, the AGAC doesn't. The Super Logan's internal launchers do help mitigate this point, however...
--The Super Logan's 32 Short Range Missiles (or 28 SRM and 2 Medium Range Missiles) are outclassed by the 1E AGAC's 16 MRMs (which with the proper selection can each equate to 2SRMs in terms of damage, though much better range, for 32 SRM)
--it should also be remembered that the AGAC is carrying MEDIUM RANGE MISSILES in volume than the Logan can not match
-The AGAC's guns are somewhat anemic compared to the Logan in term of range in 2E, and damage potential in 1E (range is equal).
--In 2E though the AGACs arm mounted weapon can be paired (one each arm as an option, RT.com infopdia makes that standard though), and is better in damage/payload than anything the Logan has is it's main weakness is range by RAW.
-either edition has the AGAC with more MDC in the Main Body, and even over all (this also applies to the Super Logan). The Super Logan only ties the 1E AGAC in main body, so it is not superior
-AGAC's pilot in 1E has more attack/actions per melee than a Logan pilot at level 1 and when they've maxed out the skill (admittedly at different levels). That is the opposite in in 2E where the Logan does get an extra attack by level 15, though below level 9 they are the same.
-in 1E the AGAC receives a +6 Dodge bonus in space over its other Dodge bonuses, that is something lacking in the 1E Logan

The Corsair/Chimera (the ASC's space fighter I presume you mention) is not a true replacement for the AGAC in space combat:
-to adequately fill the roles the AGAC does in space, the ASC would have to field 2 or more mecha in space as the Corsair/Chimera can not be used for boarding actions for example (and the AGAC outclass the space battloid in 1E, never mind the PA they use in 2E)
-the Corsair/Chimera is also more than x2 the size of an AGAC (F/H-mode), so you could put 2 AGAC on a carrier in the same space for every one Cosair/Chimera giving you 32MRMs instead of 27. This assumes you don't exploit the AGAC's lower vehicle mode height to add in additional deck space to double the number of AGACs you can put into the same volume.
--If we use Battloid mode for the AGAC, you can get 6 or 7 AGACs into the same basic volume of space easily (AGAC is taller technically in 1E, but not 2E) in one row and make 2 rows.
--that also means that the AGACs deployed in terms of deck space are going to take longer to wipe out as you have to take out multiple AGACs to equate to 1 Corsiar/Chimera
-the AGAC is also more maneuverable (+6 dodge vs +2 dodge in 1E, 2E C/C doesn't have any bonuses, in 1E the AGAC is also +6 dodge in space on top of other dodge bonuses)
-the main cannon on the Corsair/Chimera has a limited rate of fire in 1E that any AGAC pilot with more than 5 attacks (base) can quickly match or outclass it in terms of damage per melee (either by Level or taking boxing). So an experienced AGAC pilot is going to be more effective in terms of damage per melee than a more experienced Corsair/Chimeria pilot if they have to use their guns
--2E the nose gun has a payload, but not damage potential. It does have the range though
-in 1E the Corsair/Chimera can track 2 more targets with radar than the AGAC, but the AGAC's radar also has x2 the range (2E the radar's are equal, unless we are dealing with the TC's ground support optimized version that has less range, but tracks more)
-due to the transformation ability, the AGAC has much better ability to reposition its guns than the Corsiar/Chimera
-the AGAC has greater range/endurance as described in the RPG (1E or 2E)
-the Corsair/Chimera has less overall MDC than the AGAC, though in 1E it has a bit more Main Body MDC
-the only true advantage the Corsair/Chimera has over the AGAC in space combat is speed

[The Artist Formerly]

[
The Logan is certainly smaller and more agile (depending on what you look at and where), but the AGAC itself is not inferior to the Logan, or even the Super Logan:
-In 1E the Logan is only Faster in atmosphere (Mach 4.6 vs Mach 2.5), Super Logan doesn't change this
-In 1E in space the AGAC is faster (Mach 5 v Mach 4 ARE THE LISTED Speeds in space). Super Logan doesn't change this (Mach 4.8, so still slower)
-In 2E the AGAC is technically faster in vehicle mode in both space or atmosphere (personally I'm not thrilled w/ the revised speeds)
-In 1E and even 2E, the AGAC natively carries more missiles than the Logan and is not negatively impacted by their carriage as the Logan does have to fire them off to transform, the AGAC doesn't. The Super Logan's internal launchers do help mitigate this point, however...
--The Super Logan's 32 Short Range Missiles (or 28 SRM and 2 Medium Range Missiles) are outclassed by the 1E AGAC's 16 MRMs (which with the proper selection can each equate to 2SRMs in terms of damage, though much better range, for 32 SRM)
--it should also be remembered that the AGAC is carrying MEDIUM RANGE MISSILES in volume than the Logan can not match
-The AGAC's guns are somewhat anemic compared to the Logan in term of range in 2E, and damage potential in 1E (range is equal).
--In 2E though the AGACs arm mounted weapon can be paired (one each arm as an option, RT.com infopdia makes that standard though), and is better in damage/payload than anything the Logan has is it's main weakness is range by RAW.
-either edition has the AGAC with more MDC in the Main Body, and even over all (this also applies to the Super Logan). The Super Logan only ties the 1E AGAC in main body, so it is not superior
-AGAC's pilot in 1E has more attack/actions per melee than a Logan pilot at level 1 and when they've maxed out the skill (admittedly at different levels). That is the opposite in in 2E where the Logan does get an extra attack by level 15, though below level 9 they are the same.
-in 1E the AGAC receives a +6 Dodge bonus in space over its other Dodge bonuses, that is something lacking in the 1E Logan

The Corsair/Chimera (the ASC's space fighter I presume you mention) is not a true replacement for the AGAC in space combat:
-to adequately fill the roles the AGAC does in space, the ASC would have to field 2 or more mecha in space as the Corsair/Chimera can not be used for boarding actions for example (and the AGAC outclass the space battloid in 1E, never mind the PA they use in 2E)
-the Corsair/Chimera is also more than x2 the size of an AGAC (F/H-mode), so you could put 2 AGAC on a carrier in the same space for every one Cosair/Chimera giving you 32MRMs instead of 27. This assumes you don't exploit the AGAC's lower vehicle mode height to add in additional deck space to double the number of AGACs you can put into the same volume.
--If we use Battloid mode for the AGAC, you can get 6 or 7 AGACs into the same basic volume of space easily (AGAC is taller technically in 1E, but not 2E) in one row and make 2 rows.
--that also means that the AGACs deployed in terms of deck space are going to take longer to wipe out as you have to take out multiple AGACs to equate to 1 Corsiar/Chimera
-the AGAC is also more maneuverable (+6 dodge vs +2 dodge in 1E, 2E C/C doesn't have any bonuses, in 1E the AGAC is also +6 dodge in space on top of other dodge bonuses)
-the main cannon on the Corsair/Chimera has a limited rate of fire in 1E that any AGAC pilot with more than 5 attacks (base) can quickly match or outclass it in terms of damage per melee (either by Level or taking boxing). So an experienced AGAC pilot is going to be more effective in terms of damage per melee than a more experienced Corsair/Chimeria pilot if they have to use their guns
--2E the nose gun has a payload, but not damage potential. It does have the range though
-in 1E the Corsair/Chimera can track 2 more targets with radar than the AGAC, but the AGAC's radar also has x2 the range (2E the radar's are equal, unless we are dealing with the TC's ground support optimized version that has less range, but tracks more)
-due to the transformation ability, the AGAC has much better ability to reposition its guns than the Corsiar/Chimera
-the AGAC has greater range/endurance as described in the RPG (1E or 2E)
-the Corsair/Chimera has less overall MDC than the AGAC, though in 1E it has a bit more Main Body MDC
-the only true advantage the Corsair/Chimera has over the AGAC in space combat is speed

As a fighter the Corsair/Chimera outperforms the Ajax. It's better as a space superiority machine and as an interceptor. Speed rules. Hell, we could roll out the old Lancer space fighters. For boarding actions and anything of the sort, the smaller logan is a better call. Besides, based on the anime, it appears that the ASC's plan for boarding actions involve hovertanks. And with a top speed of 50 MPH (1st E) in battaloid mode, the Ajax is behind the curve to my beloved Raidar-X with the space pack (mach 1).

EDIT: And what does this have to do with the Logan? Please discuss the topic. - Jefffar

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Worse, with multi-warhead missiles, some of 'em vote twice...

Which the Ajax is the only mecha (human or alien) in Robotech shown to have that option....

Cluster Bomb - Anti-Mecha
Cluster Bomb Anti-Ship

[The Artist Formerly]

As a fighter the Corsair/Chimera outperforms the Ajax. It's better as a space superiority machine and as an interceptor. Speed rules. Hell, we could roll out the old Lancer space fighters. For boarding actions and anything of the sort, the smaller logan is a better call. Besides, based on the anime, it appears that the ASC's plan for boarding actions involve hovertanks. And with a top speed of 50 MPH (1st E) in battaloid mode, the Ajax is behind the curve to my beloved Raidar-X with the space pack (mach 1).

EDIT: And what does this have to do with the Logan? Please discuss the topic. - Jefffar

Well I'm glad you asked Jeff. Within the Robotech continuity, we have to ask ourselves why would they trade from one combat platform to another. The basic platform of the Logan fighter is a fair space fighter, not great, not awful. The proposed logan package we're discussing should allow the Logan fighter to surpass it's own standing.

But how do we define it's role? Capability, of course. How do we define that? Comparison. So What does the Ajax do that other mecha already in the ASC/UEEF/RDF arsenal don't? What does it do well, and what doesn't it get done?

How does that affect game play? Should GMs hold that the Ajax as presented is cannon? Or do we rewrite things so that the Ajax was just a prototype that got some screen time?

So to discuss the topic, we kind of need to define the base line of performance. Back in first E, Kevin published on how the older veritechs and fighters could be used in the Invid Invasion setting, they still held up according to him. But in play not only do they hold up, the exceed performance levels in some of the new machines. That's important.

If I'm building a game story, and I'm tossing around story cannon for my own mix, knowing what to move forward and what to drop is useful. How do we figure that out? Discussion.

We are on topic here.

EDIT: As this topic is about the Logan, not the Ajax, we're well off topic. Jefffar.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Besides, based on the anime, it appears that the ASC's plan for boarding actions involve hovertanks.

Sorry, but that is untrue. In Mind Games it shows not only Hovertanks being used for boarding actions, but also Ajax. General Emerson in The Invid Connection specifically orders his remaining Ajax squadrons to directly invade The Masters' mothership (and he was referring to just fighter squadrons slightly earlier in dialogue).

[ShadowLogan]

UPDATE:
GBP-8S and AGL-12DB Logan Armored Battloid System
Originally intended to give a missile barrage system like the VF-1, the UEDF:ASC developed and procured a small number of GBP-8S systems for the Logan partly from political pressure of old UEDF:RDF hands who felt the ASC was to "missile" light for its mecha. The -8S system was extremely potent for such a small mecha (52-68 190mm SRMs), its main draw back was that it limited the Logan to Battloid mode, and was really only practical in space (or under water) though that did not stop it from being used on the ground. This system would also form the basis for developing the AGL-12DB sub-system. Interestingly enough, one part of the GBP-8S was designed to work with the stock Logan and its other add-ons: a protective armored cover for the canopy that restricted visibility, but provided additional protection to the pilot as some felt the cockpit was to "exposed" (Note: in the animation ONLY the VF-1 gets shot in the exposed canopy IINM).

As the UEDF: ASC was not into developing a new missile launch system that was to be "disposable", they looked for an existing system to adapt to save on development cost. For various reasons they settled on the MM-60 from the UEEF's Alpha Veritech Fighter. They mounted numerous launchers just about anywhere and everywhere they could on the GBP-8S:
-Lower Leg: each mounts 2 MM-60 Lower Leg stations (Alpha has 3, each one is mounted to either side). For really heavy combat, a upper arm station could be added to the outer leg (or it could be replaced with an Logan MLOP)
-Upper Leg: each mounts 1 MM-60 Lower Leg station (Alpha has 3) on the out body.
-Intakes: just above each intake and mounted slightly to the side is a MM-60 Upper Arm Station.
-Main Engines: mounted to fire at an upward angle is a single MM-60 Lower Leg Station on each engine
-Forearm (non-wing side and opposite): each of the two remaining faces had a MM-60 Lower Leg Station installed.
-Forearm (wing/shield): a booster system to help the Logan compensate for all the extra mass.

The AGL-12DB is an "ordnance option" to replace any/all 190mm SRMs on the standard GBP-8S system (it properly recognized the option, unlike other 190mm capable system that would have to be upgraded). At its core the AGL-128DB is a repackaged disposable AGL-12 (after it fires its payload, it can be discarded or serviced). Pilots typically don't max out on AGL-12DB, preferring a mix (which the combat computer can adjust for). Originally the system was to use beam weapons, but economics prevented the approach and the AGR-40s in use where considered to be to bulky to be repacked into the necessary space without sacrificing payload.

VF-8U Logan (for the UEEF)
As the Alpha's mass adoption with the UEEF looked like it was going to slip, and having only a limited number of the older VF-1s on hand and with increasing hostilities, the UEEF decided to procure a service optimized version of the VF-8 Logan in 2024 to support Veritech Operations after using the ASC version for 2 years to supplement its small number of Alphas and VF-1s. The VF-8 Logan needed to be "optimized" for UEEF use, this included adjusting the design for doctrine differences between the UEEF and UEDF: ASC, but was also to include off-the-shelf UEEF technology as much as possible to minimize additional stresses to the UEEF logistics line. This Logan would become to be known as the VF-8U.

The VF-8U started with the base-line Logan design, they replaced all the avionics with VFA-6I standard avionics (note 2E performance is not changed, what has possibly changed is the part itself). The two main engines plus the leg engines have been replaced with variants of the Alpha's main engines to simplify logistics, the legs have also been adapted to allow them to be used in fighter mode. This raised the base-line Logan's Thrust to Weight Ratio to ~2.95 with all four engines, and ~1.48 with just the two main engines, however due to the extra 1.25 tons of mass for UEEF doctrine equipment the resulting values on the finished product are a bit lower (2.48 and 1.24 respectively). This compared to the 1.15 T/W ratio of the baseline Alpha (OSM) and Logan (assumption, being contemporaries they should be similar), the result is a doubling of the speed (for simplicity) due to the extra raw thrust (based on After Burner principle, though in actual practice it might be different).

The rear main engines have been "boxed" to be more like the Alpha's arm assembly in fighter mode, and when the mecha transforms it no longer rotates. The Tail fin retracts, just like on the Alpha. The "boxing" has also allowed the inclusion of an MM-60 forearm station (Alpha has 2, Logan-U has 1) on the outer edge only, additionally a single MM-60 leg station (Alpha has 3) is included on the upper side (in fighter mode) of the forearm and the outer lower leg. These MM-60 stations prevent the use of any ASC type Add-ons. These missiles can not fire in fighter mode.

When extra fire power is called for, the Logan-U will mount two upper-arm launcher stations from the MM-60 to either side of the cockpit on the air-takes that do not effect transformation. The Logan's default hardpoints remain unchanged, though the UEEF created a bottom side forearm station identical to the top that occupies the hardpoint with the same limitations as the top mounted one. Usually the UEEF uses the lower MM-60 station for SRM work, and removes it for the MRM option.

The UEEF was not a big adopter of Plasma based weaponry, and sought to replace the Logan's LPW-20 Tripple Barrel Plasma cannon with a variant of the Rotary Laser Cannon off of the AAT-40 (Genesis Pit SB pg103-4). The Rotary Laser Cannon was reduced to 3 barrels, and could be set to fire three or six round bursts. The three round burst is the standard burst size pilots are expected to use as it doesn't cause the heating issues the six round burst encounters (after two consecutive bursts, there is a 7% cumulative chance the weapon will over heat and not fire for a period of twice the number of consecutive bursts it fires, note this unforunately includes any consecutive 3 round burst with the 6 round burst). This weapon was chosen over a tri-barrel setup of the Alpha/VF-1 lasers for the increased range and power given the gunpod can not be used in fighter mode. The ASC considered adopting this feature for the Logan, but given the devopment of laser resistant materials passed it by in favor of a diversified energy weapon portfolio on the Logan (and other mecha).

The UEEF retained the EU-20 until retiring the VF-8U, though they did experimented with repackaged weapons based on the HPC-40 (Bioroid Interceptor) and E-37 (VR-052 Cyclone). This was partly due to its effectiveness (RAW), but also the much better intergrated nature of the weapon system (it has recharging capability, something other UEEF gunpod tooting mecha could not due).

As the Alpha moved into mass production and adoption by the UEEF as a whole, the VF-8U was retired due to politics even though the VF-8U had some advantages over the stock Alpha. The ASC explored the option of procuring VF-8Us for the TASC instead of what would become the VFH-10, but passed due to various political angles.

[Arnie100]

More toys!

[taalismn]

Indeed. Despite its shortcomings, I find myself oddly attracted to the Logan, of all the Southern Cross mecha. Maybe because of the fairly simplistic lines of it, and its transformation sequence(compared to the AJACs and Spartas), or because it looks endearingly like a flying VW. I want the little buggers to succeed, even on a re-watch of the original animation, knowing they're going to still get keelhauled(but at least they do better than the jets).